Khloé in Wonder Land - The Science of Swiping Right ft. Dating Expert Logan Ury

Episode Date: March 20, 2025

Khloé and dating expert Logan Ury get real on love, dating mistakes, and finding the right match. From red flags to Logan’s viral quiz, this convo breaks down what actually makes a relationship last.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Are we ready? Yeah. Yeah. OK. Good. We're getting it up. Your hair looks good. Did you chop it off?

I did. Looks really cute. Thank you. Yeah. I'll have extensions back, like long stripper hair, and like, next one. I feel like if you took the temperature on dating right now, there's a dating crisis.

And why do you think that is? I feel like there's too many options, and people are treating each other like they're disposable. I just don't think that we're really valuing each other. I have seen so many different dating coaches and not all of them handle people the way you do. I mean, sort of my unofficial motto is, f*** the spark. This obsession with instant chemistry and fireworks.

I think that that actually holds people back. So many of the best relationships really have this slow burn feeling where it develops over time. I love Disney movies. I love rom-coms, but they do create this idea that the how you met is so important. And if you're with someone for 50 years, the day that you meet is 0.0055% of your total time together. So who cares how you met? You can meet in an unromantic way and have a very romantic relationship.

I love that. You're so right. Oh my gosh. Baby let me love you, yeah. I wanna be your lover. Hi, Logan. I'm so excited to have you on. Now I learned about you or I was introduced to you because I was watching the later daters on Netflix.

And I know you're a matchmaker on that show, but I wouldn't label you as a matchmaker. You do so much more and I love that just from the show you were you are so charming and kind but also telling them the truth and I just loved your just how you handle I think dating and then when I started researching you a little bit more and knowing that you went to Harvard and you worked at Google and there's so many layers to you and I just find you so fascinating. So thank you for coming on.

I really was so excited that you said yes. Yes, yeah, thank you for having me. Thank you for the kind words and I love that you found me through later dat Daters. So yes, I actually would call myself a dating coach over a matchmaker. So really less focused on connecting people and really focused on helping people understand,

here's how you've been dating in the past. Here's why it's not working. Let's make a plan for how you can date differently. And then that's how you're gonna date like a scientist and get different results. I think it's so fascinating because I don't know if you are so young or you look so young, but either way, you look and you probably are so young,

but you have so much experience and I think is so much wisdom, but especially because the show is about people dating in the later chapters in their lives and how you handle everyone. I know this isn't a plug for the show. It's more about your personality and what really made me gravitate towards you. And I was like, gosh, I find you so interesting because I have seen so many

different life coaches, dating coaches, and not all of them handle people the way you do. And I think that takes a lot of empathy, but also self-awareness of your own. And then when I started looking you up and just, you're so intelligent and you've lived so many lives, and I'm like, let's have her on. Yay, thank you.

Yes, you know, a lot of my research has been with Gen Z and Millennial Daters, and then on the show it was over 55. And I was kind of nervous beforehand. I was like, this isn't my typical demographic. I don't know if everything's gonna apply, but I actually found that so much of what I teach and all these lessons about love are really universal

because dating is a skill and it can be taught at any age. It is. And so I didn't realize that most of your education, I guess if you will, your practice was for the Gen Z and millennials. Because I really think that there's even a difference in dating from Gen Z's to millennials. What would you, what are those,

what are the over 55s called? Or just over 55s? I mean, they're kind of like Gen X slash boomer. Okay. Yeah. Is it really hard to like, to get them out of that old school mindset that they have? Because I still feel like I have an old school mindset.

Yeah, so there's differences in each generation. So I've done a lot of research on Gen Z. I work as the director of relationship science at Hinge. So I work at that dating app, and then I get to do a lot of research. One thing about Gen Z is a lot of them came of age during the pandemic. I think that that did have a big impact

on people's social skills. Like imagine if you were in high school and like everyone in your class was talking to each other and flirting before class and then all of a sudden you're all home isolated on Zoom. You do sort of miss out on some of those essential flirting skills. You know if your prom was canceled you didn't have that prom date and that prom first kiss and all of that. And so I do feel like with Gen Z, there are some differences versus millennials. Also just being digital natives, growing up with phones, all of those things I think impacted.

And then millennials are the first generation that really had dating apps. And I think that dating is so different now from even 10 years ago. Like it used to be that people would meet through family and friends or at a bar or at work. And then since 2017, the number one way that people meet is online.

I do think that that's just blowing up everything that we know about dating. Yes. And then for the older daters, a lot of them have been married once or twice on this show. And I feel like for the older daters, there's just a sense of, I'm afraid to put myself out there,

or I'm dating the same way I always have. I feel like women can't make the first move. And so for those older daters, I spent a lot of time, especially the women telling them to throw out that outdated rule book and really date for how people date now. It's just so intimidating

because I know how hard it is to change the smallest of habits. Now you're asking people to adjust and change in the most vulnerable of habits and I think the older we get the more stubborn we get to change and I the fact that you're able to do that I mean it's a testament to you and your skill and it sounds so scary. It really is and yeah there's a metaphor I like to use that like when you're in your 20s and you meet someone, you're both like these two unformed things

that come together. So it's sort of like a startup, like you and your partner come together and you're like, we're gonna build a life together and you're still very much becoming who you're gonna become. And then when you're older, you're really a complete being and so is the other person.

And so unlike a startup, it's like two companies coming together for a merger. And these mergers, as you know, are notoriously hard because it's like, who's gonna be the CEO? Who's gonna be the head of HR? And so for these older folks, some of them have lived alone for 20 years. And the idea of combining closets, combining fridges,

what time do we set the alarm in the morning? That's really hard for them. And so we think there's to that. Yeah, right now. I'm like 20 years if I was alone for 20 years. I don't know if I because I've been single for three years. Yeah. Sorry, I interrupted you. But I've been single for three years and not dating nothing by choice. And I get afraid now. I'm very happy where I am right now. I'm not, I don't think I'm ready to date at the moment but I'm like gosh I can't even imagine sharing my bed, my remote, my household. Like don't throw me off my routine. Well that was one of the things I was thinking about as I was preparing for this is like you have such a full life. Like I feel like you're in this

amazing business woman. You're a great mom, you have great friends and family. Like do you need someone in your life for this romantic role? Like is that something that you're looking for? Right now, no. Like even when I took a quiz that you suggested, would you say it's a personality quiz? Yeah, I have like three dating tendencies,

different types of daters. It's a framework that I came up with. And yes, you took it. And I have your results. OK, well, we're going to go through that later. I'm excited. But I know if I wanted to date, I would right now. I just don't feel that there's this emptiness

in my life in that regard. And I think when you have young kids, at least for me, it's really hard for me to even because I can't go, I can, but I don't want to go out to a restaurant with someone that I've just met because then I'm linked to this person and it turns into some bigger thing. I don't have the average person's issues, so I know they're one-offs,

but I don't want to bring someone to my home because my children are there, and I just don't want wanna introduce my kids to someone unless they've been in my life for, I would say, at least six months or something like that. And I'm not going to their house because what if they murder me? I know.

There's always that. There's always that thought. So I'm not there yet. I imagine when I am, I guess I'll figure it out. That's super interesting. What comes to mind for me is like, you need like a third space. Yes.

Between like the external world, your home. I don't know what that would be, but maybe it's like a friend's house who's out of town a lot and you do dates at their house or something like that. It's so funny, my sister and I, we always say, we need a crash pad. Yeah.

Like a bachelorette pad. Not to, you know, hook up, but just like a safe space, like, okay, you wanna have dinner, we're gonna have it here. Because also if I'm like getting a hotel room, that's really implying. I know, it sends the wrong message. Right, it sends the wrong message.

Well, it's interesting. I think in some ways, your dating life must be so different for most people, but in other ways, it's like, you're a mom with young kids, and you're dealing with the same thing as other young moms, which is this feeling of, well, if I'm gonna spend a night away from my kids, it better be worth it. Right. And then it sets the bar really high versus I imagine if you were

dating in your 20s, you'd be like, oh, well, we'll see how this is. Oh, it was so much easier in my 20s and I would go out and just whatever. Right. It's not a big deal. And I don't know even if it would be that big of a deal at my age if I didn't have kids. I think the children factor is what makes everything so different for me. Right. And probably even on the first date you're like, how would they be around my children? Are they ready to be around my children? Is this somebody I want to be around my children?

It just does change the game. It really does. Oh God. But when you think about your life like in a year or two if you found someone like what role are they playing in your life because as we said your life is really full and like many of your needs are met by your OSOs your other significant others. So I am what people probably don't think about me I'm actually very traditional in a

relationship like I like the man to be the man like lead I always want to make I am, what people probably don't think about me, I'm actually very traditional in a relationship. Like I like the man to be the man, like lead. I always wanna make the man feel like the man. Like even if someone makes more money than the other, I would never put that in someone's face or have them feel a certain way. I'm just not that person. But what would that, like I don't need a man for anything,

but I want them for companionship, I would that, like I don't need a man for anything, but I want them for companionship, I would think, and just to live life with and create memories with. I do want the help with my kids. Like I want my kids to see that there's a mommy and a daddy, even if it's not their dad. Am I saying this right? No, it totally makes sense.

And so it's sort of like for you maybe making the distinction between like, there's an empty spot in my bed that I eventually want to fill, but that doesn't mean I'm taking anything away from my ex in terms of the kid's father. Right. It's just another person to love them. And that's how my mom, my dad, and my stepdad did that seamlessly. Like I never felt like my stepdad was coming in

and taking my father's place. My father was never excluded from anything and my stepdad was never, he never cared if we called him dad or Bruce or whatever. He was so chill and fantastic about everything that it made us proud to have all three of them around. And then even when my dad would have different girlfriends, we all really liked most of them.

Yeah, that's why I'm like, it's not about replacing. It's like adding an additional person to your life. But it does feel like you kind of have to decide that you want a date. And I don't know if you're there yet. I don't think I am there yet. It really makes me nervous. But I also think it makes me nervous just because all the stuff I am there yet. It really makes me nervous, but I also think it makes me nervous

Just cuz all the stuff I've been through like I'm more It's probably mainly yes about my kids is it yeah the number one, but then the next thing is like oh It's just so scary. How do you know yeah, that's not gonna happen again Do you ever think about like if you weren't famous if you weren't who you were like what your life would be like Oh all the time and like what is that image in your head? I think I would because I've always loved kids I think I would definitely be doing something with kids. I wanted to be a School teacher or some sort of educator for kids. Yeah that I probably should be doing that but I always wanted to do something like that with kids and should be doing that. But I always wanted to do something like that with kids

and otherwise just like be at home with my family. I mean, it's just so interesting because I feel like you get to have a lot of opportunities because of who you are, but then I imagine it does make dating just distinctly harder. I think so. Yes. I mean, but then I see so many other people doing it

or like they're just so seamlessly from one relationship to the next. I'm like, how do they do this stuff? I think most people are having a hard time. Like I feel like if you took the temperature on dating right now, there's a dating crisis. And why do you think that is? I feel like there's too many options

and people are treating each other like they're disposable. Like, oh, I went on a date with this girl. I didn't text her back. She got mad. Oh, I'll just match with someone else. Like, I just don't think that we're really valuing each other. And I'm also just hearing, like, a lot of people that are so focused on career,

that I think it's great to be focused on career. I'm focused on career, you're focused on career, but it's like, you also need to make time for relationships if that's something that you're looking for. Right. And so, yeah, you know, you mentioned the thing around like, you didn't say exactly like this, but it's like, you'll probably make more money than the person that you date,

but then you still want that traditional relationship. I think a lot of people are struggling with that right now because the majority of college graduates are women. Many women are making more than the men that they're dating. And I think that we haven't totally caught up to that. And so it's like it can feel very emasculating for the man and for the woman. They're like, I want them to take me out,

but I make more than them. And I don't think people have figured out how to navigate that. But I also think that there is not all women, but I've noticed from some of my friend groups that some women like to hold that they are making more as a power move. Where for me, I think I feel like I don't wanna do that

because I would hate if someone did that to me. And I like, if we go out, like there's certain things you could do, either if you have, you wanna have a joint credit card or even just like pass the credit card on to your man. That's what I've heard. That's what I heard.

Like my friend is like a personal finance guy, Ramit Sethi. And he was saying how like this couple that he was coaching, the woman would give the guy she was dating her credit card before the date because she wanted to have that experience of him putting the credit card out, even though it was hers. And like part of me is like, that's so silly, you're playing pretend. And the other part is like, no, you're getting what you want, but you're still covering it.

I think a mistake that people make in modern dating is trying to find their personality twin. And then oftentimes, like if you're life of the party, you don't need another life of the party person. Like two of you in the room, same room is too much. And I think people really need to think about a party person. Like two of you in the room, same room is too much. And I think people really need to think about finding your compliment. And so I wonder for you like what that looks like.

So the first thing I would want in any relationship is to feel safe. I think especially like now the older I am, I turned 40 this year and I feel like I'm over, like I don't wanna be worried about what you're doing. And I don't know if that's just like a forever feeling, but I don't think so. I think that most people feel like secure

in their relationships and they're like, no, we're good. And also I'm so busy, like I don't have time to worry about people except my kids. Safe, but I love to laugh and I like to be silly and just lighthearted and dance around my house. Like I like someone that can be a homebody but also be really lively within the home.

Like I don't want you to be a recluse but you're some Debbie Downer. But I don't mind a homebody, but like let's dance or we could have people over. I just don't like to be out on the town. But within my home, I'll do whatever you wanna do. I love that. It's like life of the party, but the party is your house.

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You love being around them. That the opposite sex? No, this can be a friend. And then a basement person is someone like where you walk away and you're kind of like, oh, I feel worse about myself. Like, I don't know what it is. I feel a little anxious.

You don't have to tell me who your basement person is, but you can think of someone. But can you think of someone who's your penthouse person where you just feel very energized by being with them? All my siblings and my mom. Like how do you feel when you're around them? Well depend, I would say 90% of the time if we're not like feuding or something like that. But I, when I see them, I get like really smiley and excited to see them and giddy. And most of my, we're very supportive and we're always encouraging, we're each other's cheerleaders.

So I just saw my sister, Kylie, when I walked in here and she was like, oh, I'm so excited for today for you. And we were just pumping each other up and that made me feel really good. I was like, yes, I'm gonna hang out with Logan. It's gonna be great, but it felt good. Whereas, you know, I don't know, nobody takes me down sibling-wise.

So let's say that Kylie is your penthouse person. It's like in dating, I think a lot of times people come in with this checklist, especially as they get older, the list gets longer. Must be this tall, must have this job, must have this type of family. But instead, I really encourage people to think about what side of you does that person bring out

and how do you feel around them. So if you're like Kylie or some of my other siblings are my penthouse people, when I'm around someone, I want them to bring out that confident, smiley side of me. And I think that that shift really helps people because they sort of stop paying attention to what's on paper and their resume, and they really pay attention to how do I feel around them.

I think that's something that people have just lost sight of. Like paying attention to how you feel in your body, I think is so underrated. Like I remember when I was interviewing at two different companies, and it was so easy to say, well, this company will give me this perks, and this company will give me that perk.

But then when I actually thought about how I felt in those interviews, it was so obvious which company I should work for. I think we have a hard time really ignoring those shinier on paper traits and really paying attention to what's my penthouse person, and what's my penthouse job, and things like that. It's interesting you say that, because in terms of work,

I've done that the older I've gotten. I've had job opportunities with certain people, and I'm like, honestly, that person makes me feel so bad about myself, and not all money is good money. I just, I would rather say no and move on, and I feel like God will bless me with something else and normally, I would say actually every time I've done that,

I've been, I don't know if the term is rewarded, but I've been blessed with something better and with so much more of an amazing person that owns that company or whatnot. And so in that regard, I do think I listen to myself and I agree with you completely. But with dating, for me at least, I think either I meet someone and I could tell

probably in the beginning, like I don't wanna hang out with this person again or sure, but don't you think it takes a minute to really know how you're feeling on the inside? Because sometimes the honeymoon stage is so blissful. I mean, sort of my unofficial motto is, f*** the spark. And that's really based on this idea

that so many of the people that I would coach would come to me and say, I met this guy, he was great, we had a good time, I'm never gonna see him again. Why? And then I would say, why? And they would say, I just didn't feel the spark. And so it was like this obsession with instant chemistry and fireworks and feeling like I'll know it when I see it.

And I think that that actually holds people back. And so many of the best relationships that I've experienced that other people are in really have this slow burn feeling where it develops over time. Well, speaking of that, isn't that similar to what you went through with your husband? Yeah, yeah.

Exactly. Yes, I definitely think that I'm blessed with a slow burn relationship. So it's interesting. I work at a dating app, but my husband and I first met in college. And we just had a random lunch one day. And then seven years later, we were both working at Google,

and he said hi. And then seven years later, we were both working at Google and he said hi. And then I had this lunch for people who went to Harvard who worked at Google and we sort of just became friends. But at the same time, I was chasing this other guy that I had met at Burning Man. Have you ever been to Burning Man? I haven't, but you know all about it. Yeah, so it's like, of course,

do you like fall in love at Burning Man and everything's like so, yeah. So it's like, of course, you like, fall in love at Burning Man, and everything's like so intense. And so it's like, met this great guy, but was not thinking about him. I was really chasing this guy from Burning Man. And when I look back, I have so much empathy for that version of myself, but I really was in pain. Where when you really, really like someone, and they don't like you back,

instead of just accepting it, I just went through all these mental hoops to try to get him to like me. And it's like, yeah, I feel sad about it. It's like, how can I convince this person that I'm worthy? How can I make this person fall for me? Instead of the advice that I would give that person now, which is, if they're not choosing you,

then they're not the right person for you. I think we've all done that though. We've all sang for our supper, if you will, and it sucks. Yeah, it really sucks, because you're like, oh, I'm not good enough, instead of like, we're not the right match. And like, how can I prove I'm good enough? Like, this person is now the person who can evaluate me.

So then I was so upset about this whole situation with this guy from Burning Man. I remember like crying on my friend's couch and then he was like, you know, I really think you should see a dating coach. And then I ended up seeing my own coach. And so this was before I did like the kind of work I do now. And this woman really helped me understand

what I wanted in a relationship and how I wanted someone to make me feel. And when I thought about how I wanted someone to make me feel. And when I thought about how I wanted someone to make me feel, you know, it was desired and valued and secure, I realized I felt the opposite with this Burning Man guy. He made me feel insecure and not valued. But this guy at work who had been tutoring me in the statistical programming language was so funny,

he made me feel those things. And it was kind of like, how familiar are you with the movie Clueless? Obviously. Okay, very. So you know like towards the end of the movie, she's like walking down, I feel like she's shopping somewhere in LA and then she like is near some sort of fountain

and she's like, oh my God, like it's him, it's been him. Like I kind of had that moment where I was like, it's this guy from work. He makes me feel these ways. And so we started hanging out a little bit more and then eventually I was like hey, I don't have plans on Friday, you should ask me out, which is I asked him out.

And then that really became our love story and that was 10 years ago. And so I feel like I had been chasing these sparky guys who were so dynamic and charismatic and as soon as you meet them, you wanna be around them more. But instead I married this slow burn guy who I feel like not everyone else saw how special he was,

but 10 years later I'm like, I feel like I won the lottery. And you did. Yeah. And I'm sure everyone is like, we need the slow burn guy. Right, but sure everyone is like, we need the slow burn. Right. But I want to train people to look for the slow burn because like the spark is so attractive. And I feel like there's all these myths of the spark.

Like one is that if it's the right person, you'll feel instant chemistry. That's just not true. Sometimes you have to get to know someone more. I'm sure you have people like this in your life where every time you see them, you like them more and more because they open up. Versus some people are super sparky when you meet them and you're like, I really felt something with that guy. And then your friend's like,

I really felt something with that guy too. It's like, no, that guy's just really sparky and it can feel confusing. And sometimes that spark is actually anxiety and alarm bells that we mistake for butterflies. And then the third myth is that if you have a spark at the beginning, then it's going to be a great long-term relationship.

And that's not true. Think about how many relationships start with a spark and then burn out really quickly. And a lot of people that I've met, they stay with the wrong person because they met the right way. What do you mean by that? It's like people are just so obsessed with the love story.

Got it. I was supposed to get on this flight, but I missed it. And then he was in line with me at TSA. And if I had made that flight, and it's like they love telling that story, and they're ready to tell that story in their vows, but then they reject the fact that this relationship's actually not that good.

And I think, I love Disney movies, I love rom-coms, but they do create this idea that the how you met is so important. And if you're with someone for 50 years, the day that you meet is 0.0055% of your total time together. So who cares how you met? You can meet in an unromantic way and have a very romantic relationship. Do you feel like you're guilty of falling for the spark?

Yes. What does it feel like for you? Well, I got married in 30 days of meeting my first husband. We met and then I actually, when he proposed, we got married nine days later. So, yes, guilty. Yeah. Take me to jail.

But I agree, it's, you don't know someone. I also wouldn't change it. I also love that experience and it was one of like the best experiences of my life and I loved that. But I don't think, I'll never say never, but I don't think, I'll never say never, but I don't think I would ever do that again. Yeah, I hope not.

Because you really don't know the person. And yes, the spark does, it goes fast. As fast as it started, it can also dwindle just as quickly. But I feel like with others, I've done both. I've taken some time, but I've also gone head first. I do feel my history is probably more of a head first type of gal. So what I've done intentionally this time

is taken a break from dating, and I really wanted to work on myself and focus on my kids, but also I felt like I was way too fragile of a person and I lost so much of who I was. I lost my confidence in so many layers of myself that I had years ago. And so I really wanted to get that version of myself back,

maybe the 4.0 version, whatever you wanna call it. Yeah, what number are we on? For my 40, that's why I was like the 4.0 version. But I really wanted to get the more mature, different version, but the better version of myself. And so intentionally, I wasn't dating because it's so easy to be an avoidant and distract and hang out with men because that feeling feels good.

It does. And just to have the love and I've been there and I've done that, but it hasn't worked out great for me in the past. That's why this time I wanted to try something different. And I really like, I like where I am right now in my life. I really do. But I do know I believe in love.

I believe in the happily ever after. I do, I believe in love. I believe in the happily ever after. I do, I'm not cynical. I do think someone's out there for me. I just don't know if right now is my time. And it could be fear. It could be that I'm avoiding getting back into that dating pool, but it's just where I'm comfortable right now.

Well, it's so interesting because I almost wonder if you overcorrected, if you're like, all right, 2.0 version of myself jumped head first into relationships, so 4.0 version needs to really slow down. But perhaps you've slowed down too much, because if we're allowed to talk about your quiz results. Oh, tell me.

Yeah, so your quiz results suggested that you are a hesitator. And so a hesitator is someone who's not putting themselves out there and dating because they feel like, oh, I'm not 100% who I want to be yet. And I want to work on myself more, and then I'll be ready to date. And for you, it might be, I want to just really focus

on motherhood in this time, or this just isn't the moment. And so for the hesitator, it's like they have an identity of I'm not a dater right now. That's spot on, 100%. I don't put myself out there. I haven't been on one date, like not one in three years. Like I don't, yes, like I don't even think I'm looking, I'm not interacting with the opposite sex. Like unless you're already in my life, a friend of mine.

But I'm like, no, no, no, no, no. Closed for business, don't talk to me. If you met a great guy and I truly don't know how you're meeting strangers, like would you feel open to it? You're like, there are no strangers. Stranger danger. I know. Stranger danger.

I, and what's crazy is I tell myself or my friends when they ask me, are you open to it? I'm like, yes, I'm open to it. But where am I? Like if I'm really laying it out there, I don't even go anywhere, I think, to be open to it. Okay, so I was thinking before our conversation, where would you meet people?

It's like, you're not gonna be on an app. I don't think that. So people always ask me if I'm on Riot. Right. It's like a application only. It does tend to attract certain celebrities or athletes, but it's like, I can't really see you with where you are in life, being on an app.

I can't either. Yeah. And so, this idea just popped into my head. Okay, imagine if you're like two weekdays a month, I'm gonna have a dinner party at my house, and I'm gonna ask friends to bring random people, guys, like men and women, like not like putting pressure on it,

not making it into a dating show. And then just putting yourself in situations where you're meeting more people, like safe people that someone's vouching for. And it's not a one-on-one date where you feel like, okay, like, am I gonna introduce them to my kids? Or this is awkward that I have a man over, but just exposing yourself to more new people

in a safe way where you can see how they interact with you and other people, and then through that, maybe just like expanding your network and one of those people you'll have a crush on. So what's crazy is I say that all the time. I'm like, I used to do Taco Tuesdays. Oh, cute. Like every week, and it was called Tattle Free Tuesdays, because I'm like, I used to do Taco Tuesdays. Oh, cute. Like every week.

And it was called Tatl Free Tuesdays. Cause I was like, whoever comes and if you guys wanna smooch in the corner, like nobody's talking, who cares? That was just what I did before kids. And, but my friends were like, when are you doing Taco Tuesdays again? I'm like, it's a different version.

But it wasn't like anything wild. It was just fun. And everyone had their phone. Like we all left our phones at the door and it was just playing games. And I always say, let's do that and people bring other people, but I never follow through. That's what I feel like you need

because you're just not gonna be meeting people out and about. Most of the things that I would tell most people do not apply to you. But I think that if you can do it within your house, you feel safe, you're creating the environment and then people are bringing apply to you. But I think that if you can do it within your house, you feel safe. You're creating the environment. And then people are bringing people

to meet you both as friends and potential partners. I think it's kind of a way to slow roll into it. And I, as much as I don't trust a lot of people, I really like talking with people. I find other people fascinating. So even just doesn't have to be on a romantic level, I do enjoy. Like I find human behavior fascinating.

I really do. And I just like to engage with other people. And imagine, so OK, like a while ago, my friend and I did these dinners called Intrigued, where like imagine, well, this is more my life than your life. You're at a conference and you meet someone and you want to see them again. But it's like too forward your life, like you're at a conference and you meet someone and you wanna see them again, but it's like too forward to say do you wanna get a drink

and you're not ready to hang out one on one, but then you text them and you say like, I find you intriguing, I'm gonna bring you to this intrigue dinner with other people that we find intriguing. So you're already like very flattered, and then you come and you already have a good impression of everyone because you're like, they're all so intriguing,

and then you meet and you just have this interesting impression of everyone because you're like, they're all so intriguing. And then you meet and you just have this interesting conversation. I love that. Like I can just see you or you and a friend or you and a family member doing that. And it's a way to bring what we call weak ties into your life. So it's like, you know who your own small circle knows,

but who are like the next level, who's the next layer. And how can you bring like new people and new energy into your life in a way that feels safe? You're probably at your best in your house, not when you're like, you know, worrying about paparazzi or something. It's like, how can you be the most comfortable, authentic version of Chloe and bring people in

and see like, do they fit in my home? Does this feel comfortable? No, I love that. And I'm always like, oh, it's getting late, gotta go home. But when I'm at home, I'm like, oh, I'm fine. I don't know what I'm getting home to. I just like to be within my walls. I think that's a cool way to ease yourself back

into the waters. Because for my hesitators, the people who get that on the quiz, I'm like, you kind of have an identity of I'm not dating. And then it's hard to welcome new romantic energy into your life. Whereas if you say, I'm open to dating, I haven't dated in a while, but I'm not dating, and then it's hard to welcome new romantic energy into your life. Whereas if you say I'm open to dating, I haven't dated in a while but I'm open to it,

I do think that energetically things change. Because right now if you just think I'm not dating, I feel like things won't change. And do you think there's anything wrong, let's just say I do this and I'm like, I don't think I'm there yet, let's say, do you think there's anything wrong with someone taking like five years off of any romantic, physical, like any sort of dating,

let's say. I don't have rules around like do or don't take time off. It really depends what your goals are. Like if your goal is to find someone and to have that companion, then I would say why put a false amount of time on it where you have to wait to date. But if you really tell me like,

I just wanna focus on my kids, like I know this is what I want, then I would say take all the time you need. But for hesitators, I often just like to say to them, like imagine that a year from now, like you were in this great relationship, like tell me about waking up in the morning Tell me about drinking coffee with this person and they often get really excited about that possibility See that doesn't make me excited right now. I get anxious

Like I get up at five I have things to do yeah, like you're freaking me out But like no, no, that's good I mean you may not want it, but it's like, what are the moments where you're like, it would be great to have somebody to tell about my day. It would be great to share this moment with someone. To be honest, like, cause the evenings, everyone's gonna think I'm nuts.

Cause in the evenings I'm like, oh thank God my kids are asleep, I have like an hour I can watch something on TV. And then like, I just like also my quiet time. The moments are when there's a vacation or if I would like every now and again maybe to go to like a dinner with someone or just do an activity with somebody else. But I don't mind being the only single one too

when people are, I'm not that person that's like, I'm the third wheel. I'm like, hell yeah, I'm the third wheel. Like I find that I'm not insecure about that stuff. But then I would say when I, social media, if I'm like scrolling and I'm seeing, you know, people that have been married 50 years or like when they're really old, that's when I'm seeing people that have been married 50 years or when they're really old.

That's when I'm like, I can't be, I'm not gonna be alone when I'm really old. My mom always says when my kids are gone, I'm really gonna be like, damn, I wish I had someone and feel really alone, because I put so much into my kids, but I don't know. I mean, what I'm hearing from you is that your life

is just so full that you feel really happy most of the time with the way things are, there's nothing missing. And then in fact, when you have the solo time, it's kind of just a chance to recharge. So you don't see a moment where you're like, I need a man here, like insert another human there. The only time I did was during the fires and I was like, I'm evacuating and with two kids and I had to get my daughter's two

cats and but my brother lives right down the street and I'm like come over and he's helping me load my car so that's really the only time I was like I wish I had someone even just because I'm you know stone-cold to my kids like oh everything's fine and I'm acting I wish I had someone even just because I'm you know stone-cold to my kids like oh everything's fine And I'm acting I wish I had someone even next to me. Yeah, are we gonna be fine like that? Where I'm just doing it by myself And it's more an internal. I wish I did have a partner. I think when Tragedies arise, but how often is that?

Well what I was gonna say is like you're doing great You don't need someone else but the thing about relationships is I feel like a lot of the beautiful ones are like many years of being together. Right. And so it's sort of like maybe that's something where you want to start it now so that you can grow together and grow old together. But what I'm hearing you say is like you don't need someone right now and in that case I would say like maybe wait until you feel like you really have space for it.

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Help a try. Visit betterhelp.com slash Chloe today to get 10% off of your first month. That's Better Help, H-E-L-P dot com slash Chloe. Take the step because the best relationships start with a better you. Hi friends, it's Jemma Speck. If today's episode has you thinking about life, love, and relationships, then you'll love listening to my podcast, Mantra. Every Monday, I bring you a brand new mantra designed to help you shift your mindset, stop self-sabotaging, and move through life

with more confidence. And these mantras apply to every area of your life, dating, work, and even personal growth. If you're ready to stop overthinking and start making real changes, then you need to check out mantra. Just search mantra wherever you listen to podcasts. I do like your idea about having people come over and I don't think there's any harm in that either way. Like, because I do like people and I think it would add a little more life to my house.

I just imagine being a celebrity can be very isolating. It is. Because everyone you meet, you have to say like, what do they want from me? And like, are they on the payroll? And like, all this stuff. And it's like, if you can create a space where academics are coming into your life,

or like, somebody's really interesting artist friend, just expanding your network a little bit more to expose yourself to new people, I think that that's where a connection is gonna come from. It's like, that's why you wanna have this podcast, right? Because you're trying to like meet new people and have deep from. It's like, that's why you wanna have this podcast, right? Cause you're trying to like meet new people and have deep conversations. It's like, you could have a partner

where they're saying to you, oh my goodness, let me tell you about this science experiment that I just read about and the crazy stuff happening with quantum computing. And you'd be like, cool, I didn't know about that. It's like, I think that right now, when you imagine a relationship, you said it gave you anxiety

cause you're like, I wake up at five, I have things to do. It's like, I think you're when you imagine a relationship you said it gave you anxiety because you're like I wake up At 5 I have things to do It's like I think you're imagining what it would take away from you, right? Which maybe is like time freedom things with your kids, but I also want you to think about what it would give to you I know I need to think more positively in that aspect. Yeah, really do I don't want to push you if you don't feel like you're ready for it now But I do think that relationships in general, the research shows, make people happier, make people healthier. And I think that we think about financial fitness,

we think about mental health, and we think about physical fitness, but there's also social fitness. And I think that there's something about love relationships that's really special. And I love love, like that feeling of being in love. I think it's the most beautiful thing. and people are always so surprised when I say how much I believe in love and Like that I know I'm gonna be married again one day and have my happily ever after

I don't know why people expect me to be really cynical and like Love right, but I'm not I think it's amazing. Well, it's like maybe you're a romantic who's just Fallen head over heels a few times and is like, now I need to hold myself back. And then it's kind of like, what's the in between that feels good for you and 4.0? You know what I think it is? I don't know if I trust myself anymore. And before, I don't think I questioned my picking.

What does not trusting yourself mean? Well, my track record hasn't been great, but in a pretty volatile, traumatic way. Not violent like that, but just it's so, it's really crashed and burned that I'm like, okay, what did I not see? There was a lot of red flags in hindsight, but at the time, I was like, oh, everything looks green to me. Let's go.

I think that's pretty common. People who stop trusting their guts, who are like, those red flags were waving in my face, and I didn't notice them, then they pull themselves back. Because they're like, I can't trust my instincts. But I think there's another way to look at it, a reframe, which is I'm going to get myself more dating experience so that I get better at it. And I think dating's another way to look at it a reframe which is I'm gonna get myself more dating experience So that I get better at it

And I think dating really is a skill and that you can get better at it over time But the only way to get better at dating is by dating I also agree with what you're saying that we are exposed to too much and You were saying earlier like people are more Not people think people are more disposable. And I think relationships lasted so much longer back in the day because even if somebody did something that was not respectful in their relationship,

probably you were never gonna know about it. What you don't know doesn't hurt you. If you were, you know how people like someone else's photo or will be viewing someone's page, that's the same thing if a guy was like, oh, that waitress is hot, but you wouldn't know. There's truly a lot more ways to cheat now. Right.

Like with texting, with sexting, with OnlyFans, it's actually just the amount of different ways that you could sort of be disloyal to someone having increased with technology. But not even it has to be that severe. Like now a girl, of course, and rightfully so, girls will be like, why are you on that girl's page? And like, she'll break up with someone.

And that's fine, that's your boundary. But back in the day, if someone was like, with his friends, I know that girl's hot, you got away with it. And because your girlfriend or wife wouldn't know about it. So it could be that minor, but now people do discard people so easily, but if those are your boundaries, they're your boundaries.

But I do think social media is a very, very tricky place. It really is. And you're also fantasizing, because how we had Disney movies, they now now have you follow these couples on Instagram and you're like oh it's this very tailacoe beautiful and behind the scenes they're miserable and they hate each other. One of my favorite things about my husband is that he doesn't use social media at all. I love that. Like isn't that so sexy? I love that. Because he doesn't need other people to tell him his worth Yes, and he's not keeping track of other people and comparing and despairing. I was it wasn't for my job Yeah, I wouldn't have social media because I I don't want you

Chiming in on something about yeah, and it should be private. It's hard to perform I think it's like hard like this is something I'm really studying with Gen Z is like this idea of like surveillance culture and like if you live in public like I think back to high school and like mistakes that I made and it's like if somebody had been shooting an Instagram story at the time like and I've been in the background like who knows what would have happened but like I didn't think about being surveilled and I feel like just reading between the lines

of some of the stuff that I do when I interview Gen Z daters there's like a sense that you're always being watched I think people are just more uptight now and it's like Gen Z is losing their virginity later they're not drinking as much they're not getting their driver's license as often like I think that it's really important to take risks and to be open to rejection and And I think the lack of risk taking behavior, in some ways it's great, like less drinking and driving, but I'm also worried. Right.

And I know my nephew and his group of friends, I've noticed that they push off the driver's permit and all that. But why? Like when I was able to get my license, actually I'm a bad example of this because I was really afraid of getting my license, but like most people that weren't me

were getting their license as soon as they could. Oh, I was stealing cars at 14. I needed to drive. So with your nephew, what do you think's going on? Well, I also think because like of Ubers, those things that are easier for them. And they're like, well, why do I need to take this test? I do think it's that,

which sort of that scares me more than having my kid drive. Because who's the stranger driving you around? So I think it's that, but it could also be like a fear of rejection or I'm gonna fail this, it's too much pressure. I don't know, but I also notice the not drinking thing, but I also notice that younger kids are,

or the Gen Z kids are so much more into health and fitness and like drinking water and what's artificial. And I'm like, I don't even. I'd never heard of water until like last year. I'm the same, like what the hell was water? And the sparkling water. I'm like, my daughter's six and all of my nieces drink sparkling water. I'm like, my daughter's six, and all of my nieces drink sparkling water.

I'm like, boo-gee. I know. What are the results on your quiz? Oh yeah, yeah, I can go through all of that. Yes, I would love to know about that. Okay, so when I have coached a lot of different people, I noticed that even though they're different people from different walks of life,

they had one thing in common, which was unrealistic expectations. And so I designed this framework called the three dating tendencies. So you took that quiz, and people can take it on my website. So the first one. And it's really easy.

It's just 19 questions. Yeah, it takes 10 minutes. Yeah. So the first one is the romanticizer, which is actually what I thought you were going to be. So the romanticizer is the person who's like, there's a soulmate out there for me. There's one person. When I meet them, I'll know,

they're very focused on the we met. And what happens to romanticizers is often when they meet someone who's not in the package that they expected, or when the relationship hits that inevitable rough spot, they think, oh, this must not be my person, because if it was my soulmate, it would be easier than this. So the homework for the romanticizer

is to understand that, of course, relationships are hard and that it doesn't matter how you met, it matters that you met. And then the second type, which is a lot of what I deal with with CEOs and people in New York and the Bay Area is maximizers. I'm sure you know a lot of people like this, they have unrealistic expectations of their partner.

So they think, they come to my house with spreadsheets and they're like, I want the looks of this girl, the ambition of this girl, the family of this girl, like find me someone like that. And they're always searching for the perfect person and they feel like, oh, I'm close, but if I found this girl, I wanna find someone even better.

And so they feel like there's someone perfect out there instead of understanding that you could make it work with many people, it's about choosing someone great and investing in that. And that really great relationships are built, they're not discovered. And so how can you truly find someone great and build it versus just trying to like trade up all the time.

And then the third type, which is what you were on the quiz is the hesitator. And they have unrealistic expectations of themselves. So they're often feeling like I'm not ready to date yet, or I'm not exactly who I wanna be, or when my kids are in school, I'll be ready to date. When I clean up my apartment, yeah, when I get a different job, when I have more time. And so they are creating these hurdles of, I can't date until this.

And then once they kind of overcome that hurdle, they move the goalposts and it's another one. And so for hesitators, a lot of the work is choosing a date, choosing a deadline and saying, I'm going to start dating, having an identity around being a dater, being open to dating and really just having some accountability. So it's like, can you bring back Taco Tuesdays? Can one of your siblings or one of your friends be like, Chloe, we're doing this, doesn't have to be every Tuesday,

but just once a month, we're gonna do Taco Tuesday. It's gonna be really fun, it's gonna feel safe, and just creating an environment where you're more open to people entering your life. And I feel like I can commit to a once a month taco Tuesday. Yeah, right. I feel like that's not too crazy. I mean, doesn't that sound fun?

I wanna eat tacos on Tuesdays. It does, yeah. Like that sounds great. No, it does. And having it be something that you're looking forward to instead of something with like a lot of pressure, a lot of sacrifices around it. It's like you're bringing into your home people that you love and then also a few new people. It's like sprinkling them in. Yeah, I love that.

Do you think at different parts in someone's life they can change? Because I feel like I used to be the romanticizer and now I'm the procrastinator. I definitely think people can change. There's this concept from the Harvard psychologist Daniel Gilbert called the end of history illusion. So if you say to somebody who's 30, how much did you change in the last 10 years? They'll say, so much, I'm totally different.

Then you say, how much will you change in the next 10 years? And they'll say, not much, I'm done changing. And so it's like people actually change a lot, but their projection is that they won't change that much much and so I think if we just all embrace the fact that we're growing Changing people I think it helps us understand each other and ourselves more and also be excited And so I think the fact that you're different than you used to be is great and there's a lot of growth in there Well now Now that you have a baby. baby, how old is she?

She's 14 months. 14 months. Do you think because you had a challenging end of your pregnancy that you have even so much more gratitude that you get to hold her and snuggle her every day? Yeah, I mean, I think when I look around and see the stories about motherhood, like this is what I'd say, I'd say pregnancy and labor are harder

than people talk about. Maybe women don't wanna freak other women out. But I think it actually is like a scary thing. Like women are still dying in childbirth. And so I kind of feel like many moms that I've talked to are like, yeah, that was way more real than I expected. But I think motherhood is so much greater than people talk about. I had an easy pregnancy.

Like, I don't know how most people feel, but I actually liked being pregnant. I felt like it kind of like, I don't even know how it evened me out. Like, I like not getting my period. I shot my TV show when I was pregnant. Like, I happen to getting my period. I shot my TV show when I was pregnant. I happened to really like it. And then one day I just noticed, oh, my hands are swelling. And I called the doctor. And I spoke to the nurse.

And she was like, here are the signs of preeclampsia. It's like swelling in your extremities, headaches, some blurriness or floaters in your eyes, pain above your stomach, like under your rib cage. And I was like, okay, well, I don't really have those. And then a week later, I just wasn't feeling well, and I was in the shower, and I started going through the symptoms,

and it was kind of like everything was flashing before my eyes, because I was like, wait, I do have floaters right now. I do have this pain in my stomach. And like, as I was in the shower, I started like saying this thing over and over my head, which was like, I mean, get out of the shower and say to my husband, like, I don't mean to freak you out,

but I think we have to call the nurse's hotline. Like, and then, you know, I got out of the shower, I told him, they said, take your blood pressure. And it was like through the roof. And we were supposed to go to the ballet that night And he was like, oh, I don't want to cross like the bridge to San Francisco Like where I was supposed to give birth like let's just go to the local Berkeley Hospital. So we're like, okay fine So we just went there and then like all of a sudden like everything moved so quickly

They were like you have severe preeclampsia. You're admitted to this hospital You're not allowed to leave like you are now a patient of this hospital and like you will be here. And how far along were you? I was 32 weeks. Oh my gosh. Yeah. So they were like, you're not going to leave this hospital. Like you, the latest that you would give birth is in two weeks.

So then just like everything started happening really fast. And this is like such like a 2023 like tech moment. My husband works in tech, but like I didn't really know how bad things were until my husband went home to get some stuff and he was like, send me the master password for your one password. Like basically for my password manager. And I was like, am I gonna die?

Like why do you need my master password? Oh my God, I love him. Yeah, he's really funny. And so, yeah, basically like, you know, then things started to look better, but they woke me up. So I went to the hospital at 4 p.m., and then they woke me up the next morning at 3 a.m., and they're like, your body is shutting down,

you now have help syndrome, the only cure for this is- Was help syndrome. It's basically like a worse version of preeclampsia. Oh, wow. Yeah, it's very dangerous. And so they were like, you need to give birth right now. So I had an emergency C section at 32 weeks. And it was so hard. And she was in the NICU for six weeks. And I felt like my husband just like was my brain for two months. Like I was a body that would move from my bed to

the hospital to visit my daughter. But I wasn't making decisions. I the doctors would come talk to us. And it was like, I couldn't even understand what they were saying And like he just handled all the decisions and it's like when people are looking for someone to be with I think they say like Who's fun like who am I attracted to like who do my friends like it's like these are the time Yes It's like who is going to talk to the doctor on your behalf when you don't have a brain and your child is in the NICU? Right, I agree. That's such a beautiful story

and thank you so much for sharing that. My sister Kim had preeclampsia and I remember at the, none of us, I think ever heard of it before. My mom had six somewhat easy pregnancies and so did Courtney. And I just remember, like what I flashback to was like this was like the craze of tabloids

and everyone making fun of my sister for like her swollen big feet in high heels and her hands and she's like, I'm pregnant, isn't this normal? But she really, none of us knew and she did have pretty fat feet but like we thought that was what happens in pregnancy. We didn't know any different but just like literally I can google it now and you'll see

all these pills and you're like what? And the doctor tell her like that's what's so hard is I'm like I am an educated person. I have access to great medical care but like I barely knew what preeclampsia was. I had not read a single book about pregnancy, about having a kid. I was like, that's what January is for. And she came in December. So how did I not know what preeclampsia was?

And that's one of those things where I'm just like, I do hope that people see this and know what those symptoms are. Get a blood pressure machine to check it at home. That was one thing that was helpful for us. And I wish I'd checked my blood pressure before. No, but like you said, you didn't know about it. And if it weren't for Kim's experience,

I don't think I would have known about it probably until this conversation. I don't think people talk about it enough. That was one thing that I had my son via surrogate. And I do speak about my experience. It's not all daisies and rainbows with him. And you know, sometimes I fight myself with that because I don't ever wanna make him feel bad

the older he gets. But I also feel like people should hear this side because you only hear one really great side. And I remember I felt like a really bad human being because I was not feeling the way that I would only read about or hear about. Yeah, I wish there was like more education about some of this stuff.

Well, you're doing that right now. You really are. Just people will listen or watch and they will hear your story and I hope nobody has that but if they have any of these symptoms at least go get it checked. It never hurts to get things checked. Well Logan I can sit and chat with you all day. This was so nice I'm definitely gonna start my Taco Tuesdays. Yay! Monthly. I love it. Once a month. I'm ready for that. But baby steps are still

steps and yeah just thank you for chatting with me. I really think this is going to be so helpful for so many people. Thank you. Yes. Thank you for the opportunity to chat and to get to know you and to share some of these messages with more people. Thank you, Lincoln.