Khloé in Wonder Land - True Crime Deep Dive ft. Ashley Flowers

Episode Date: May 13, 2026

Consider this your official invitation to Conspiracy Corner. This week Khloé sits down with Ashley Flowers, the host of Crime Junkie and the woman who has helped solve over 20 cold cases, and they go full crime junkie for an entire episode. The cases they can't let go of, the theories they both believe, the scam targeting families right now that everyone needs to know about, and one catfishing story so unhinged Ashley bought the rights to it. Buckle up.Episode Sponsors: Ollie. Feed the Obsession. Go to https://www.ollie.com/wonderland and use code wonderland to get 60% off your first box!Go to https://www.armra.com/KHLOE or enter KHLOE to get 30% off your first subscription order. Opill is birth control in your control, and you can use code KHLOE for 25% off your first month of Opill at https://www.Opill.com  You can find Barilla Al Bronzo pasta in the red bag at select retailers nationwide. Click here to find a store near you: https://click2cart.com/153800gv  Use my code for 10% off your next SeatGeek order: https://seatgeek.onelink.me/RrnK/KHLOE10 Sponsored by SeatGeek. Restrictions apply. Max $20 discountSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Ashley Flowers. I am jazz to talk a little bit of true crime. Kim and I, we are obsessed. I don't know how healthy this is to be that obsessed. You want to put your tinfoil hat on. I say crime junkies are born, not made. If I could build a moat, I would have a moat with alligators. Our brains, like, love a mystery.

How is someone here one second? Gone the next. I don't think the story we've gotten is the real story at all. No. In my gut, do I think she's alive? I do. This is insane that it's not getting any traction. Right now, I'm working on the weirdest

catfishing story in today's day and age, the fact that we're still catfishing. Do you think this ever turns into an unhealthy obsession? I wanted to find a way to give back. We're not just telling these stories. We're working with law enforcement. We're working with families. Do you ever get afraid like maybe I said too much? The dark shit happens in the shadows. Yes, it does. This could go off the rails. Yeah, like really, really quick. Sort of fine with, too. Thank you for coming here today. I'm so excited to sit and talk to you. Thank you. I am jazz to talk a little bit of true crime. I am so excited. So I want you, if you can just tell the audience, how did you get into true crime? I say crime junkies are born, not made. So I... Very true.

Like, there was never a moment or like a case. I don't have a personal experience. My mom was a crime junkie, her mom before her. So I feel... Generational. Seriously. I feel like I just like grew up in it. And, you know, it started when I was young with like, we were reading Nancy Drew and then Agatha Christie. And then I feel like... the first time I really, like, got into true crime as it was a fiction, is we were, me and my best friend Britt, who I do the show with, we were tabloid height when John Bonae happened. And for us to realize, like, oh, my gosh, this could happen, happen to someone our age that looks like Gus. And it was so big. And so that's when, that's when, like, this whole other world opened up.

And I have just been obsessed ever since. I can't help it. So my sister, Kim and I, we are obsessed. and I don't know how healthy this is to be that obsessed. And I was so much more obsessed before I had my daughter. And I think then I'd feel like you've gone the other way. So I went the other way for a minute. I was like, I need a break or I was very choosy with the true crime I would watch. It could have nothing to do with kids. Yeah. So many moms tell us. They're like, if it's a kid episode, like, I can't listen. Yep. Which like I totally get, because I've got a daughter now. And I think that it like it.

Doesn't it change, don't you think? Your view of the world, I think completely changes. But I keep telling everyone, I feel like I was actually pushed more towards listening. Like, it was definitely harder. But the same reason I listened to everything else, it's like, I can't protect her if I don't know what to protect her from. Before, when I used to watch true crime, there's not even a thought that any of this would happen to me. Really? Never. I'm like, I will fuck all those people up. Everyone's going to find me. Like, it just, it wasn't a thought. When you have kids, then you're like, okay. at least for me. The world is so dark. It's so scary. Everyone is so messed up. And I'm not going to put myself in any of these situations. I'm going to have all the security I can, like the alarm systems, the shattering glass. Like I have so many things that I don't think I had an alarm before I had kids. Like, who knows? There's no way you didn't have an alarm for your kids. I don't know. I'm probably exaggerating. I was like, you're all just like a different. I'm probably exaggerating. But the thought I put into things now, it is Fort Knox. If I could build a moat.

I would have a moat with alligators and great whites. I keep telling people I want to recreate. Did you watch The Village, the M. Night Shyamawin movie? No. Why has no one seen The Village? Is this a horror movie? Yeah. Yeah, because he's horror.

I don't do horror. I can do true crime. I don't want you to, like, scare me. Like a boo. I can do suspense. Okay, but you don't do a boo. Well, I'm going to ruin M. Night Shyamalan for people. So, spoiler alert.

Okay, spoiler alert. They have this, like, it's set in like this, like, 1800s village, and there's this, like, monster that lives in the woods. Already terrified. And you find out at the end, there is no monster. It's like modern day that this like community came together to like create a fake 1800s so that their kids could be safe. And I was like, I want to do that. But the 90s. I like that. Yes. Where it's just like you get like a new CD and like AIM. Yes. Very early on. Like that that I'd be jazz about. This is nothing to do a true crime. But over the weekend, I just made a list. So my dad had a tradition that once a week, we would watch a movie.

of his choosing. Okay. And which I hated at the time. Obviously. I'm like, I'm not watching these old movies. But now people reference the movies that he made me watch. I'm like, oh, I know that reference. So I made a list and I went, I Googled like 90s movies.

Yes. Like now and then, the babysitters club, there's so many great movies. I don't, just want on a tangent. But. I feel like I need your list because I grew up in like, oh, like deeply religious, like borderline cult. And so like I missed like this. whole era of stuff. You couldn't watch those movies? No, I couldn't. But you could be in true crime? I couldn't watch

Harry Potter. I'm just watching Harry Potter for the first time with my daughter. Oh my, well, that's a good experience. Oh, it's fantastic. Yeah, but you can watch true crime. Yeah. Okay. Yeah, makes sense right. Love it, balance. Yeah. Okay. No judgment. We listen and we don't judge. That's what I do. Oh, we're out now. I judge a lot. Okay. So there wasn't one case that like turned you on to true crime. It was just, was it more that so many things couldn't be solved or could be solved? I mean, I'm definitely drawn to unsolved cases over solved ones. I mean, I think that there's like a, there's like two things that are like constantly drawing me to these. And I think in like the solved cases, it's, we have a saying crime junkies that like we're not paranoid, we're pro-paranoid. Like I wanted to look for all of the

things that like if I were ever in this situation, what would I do? What led up to this? What do I look out for in a relationship. Like, what are the red flags? So in a lot of the solved cases, I feel like what we find is education, self-like preservation. And then in the unsolved cases, I mean, my dream was to, like, be a detective. I'm like, sure, if, like, I can get the right case file, if I can talk to the right person, like, surely I can solve the mystery. And I think our brains, like, love a mystery. I don't think it manifests as true crime, maybe, for everyone. but like we look for order where there isn't any. And I mean like it's like missing person cases. I'm obsessed with like how is someone here one second gone the next. Nancy Guthrie. I mean, is that not

heartbreaking? What do you think? I don't know. I'm just like are you, this is 2026. There is nothing. Like we don't that. That is mind blowing. I can't even believe that. But I'm also like very conspiratorial. So like. Me too. I don't know if I know enough about this case. But like all. the things I was reading about the brother-in-law and that kind of stuff. I'm like, oh, we did a whole like episode in our fan club where I was like, you guys, there's like weird stuff happening in the background. The ransom notes going to all the media outlets first. How weird was that? I know. I know. I know. It's so much. And I just, I can't understand that in 2026, there's not, like you said, that's what I don't believe that there's not one piece of information. I just, they're not telling us.

They're not telling us. It's just like so common with law enforcement. right, as we work with so many families. Like, we're not just telling these stories. We're working with law enforcement. We're working with families. And it is wild how they, like, are going through the most, like, traumatic experience of their life. There's no resolution.

There's this person who they love who's out there in the world missing or murdered. And they're expected to just, like, you have to pay the bills. You have a contract. You have to go back to work. And the world just, like, keeps moving, even though yours has, like, completely stopped. And it's so odd. It's also how people feel like the anger towards the world when, someone passes away close to them. And every like it's the acknowledgement that they're like,

oh, the world just still, everything still goes on. I'm like, it does. It sucks. Yeah. But yeah. It's a strangest feeling. It's the strangest feeling. Speaking of that you are gravitating more towards cold cases, you've actually yourself solved over 20 cold cases. Not because I'm like out there boots on the ground, but our nonprofit has. So. That's incredible. Thanks. We so much of like when got into this, I wanted to find a way to give back. So even as a consumer of true crime, I always felt weird taking this as entertainment when I'm like, these are the, this is the worst time in a family's life. So even before I ever created this content, I was volunteering, like, with my local crime stoppers. Like, how do I just give back in a small way? And then as I created content, it was,

you know, bigger ways and bigger ways. And we do, we have the team of amazing investigative journalists. and we're doing amazing work. And some of the work that we're doing on these cases is actually moving them forward. But I also kept finding over and over that I'd get to these agencies and they're like, yeah, we have suspect DNA in this murder. We just like can't. We don't have the funds to test it. Isn't that crazy? And I'm like, we're talking like $5,000 between like getting a murderer off the streets or not. And so we started a nonprofit called Season of Justice. And that nonprofit has gone on. I think they've now awarded like two million dollars in grants that have gone to like, you know, 250, 300 different cases. And, you know, it takes a long time. Sometimes, you know, you hit a dead end. But we've, they've solved a ton of cold cases through that organization. And it's, it's been really amazing to see. And I think that a lot of people are looking at that and changing the way that they think about like true crime content. Because it can feel everyone, I feel like it gets a bad rap that it's just like this exploitative, voyeuristic thing. And I don't think it has to be. No, and also, what a wonderful legacy that you get to leave behind. I know you said you're not the one like boot setting the ground, but you're the one making it all happen and making that a possibility. And for 20 families or more than 20 for them to have that closure, it's so, so beautiful. Do you have one case that's a cold case that like you wish you can solve? But like have you tried that hasn't been able to be solved? Like Jean Bonnet. for example, are you like, there's just no fucking way this still isn't solved yet. It is weird, isn't it? It is weird. I am obsessed with the Jon Benet case. I mean, again, that's like since I was little, I followed it. You're like Kim and I are too. That and the Maddie. Oh, Madeline McCann. Yes. Portugal. Yep. John Mene is one. I mean, I just, in the last like

year, year and a half, I like, I sat down with her dad. I've done like a ton. I continue to get people who write into me or talk to me who have information on that. And that's something that. I mean that's something that I think I'll constantly follow, like, throughout my career. Right. I don't think there's just, like, one case that it's everyone always asked, like, what's the one? Like, you can solve the one. And it's, to me, it's like, whatever one, all of them, but whatever one I'm, like,

the deepest into at the moment. And we just did this, a couple of episodes, this series out of Arizona that hasn't gotten, I don't think a ton of, like, mainstream media. I think they're, like, to the area. People kind of know about this case. But there was this dad who was on FaceTime. with his kids at the office. And all of a sudden, they hear this like commotion.

They hear this like bang. And he's like, it's dark. And they go running to their mom. And they end up finding out that he was shot while he was on FaceTime with them. And the police get to his office. And it's just him and his business partner in the office. And he is shot execution style. His business partner is fine, just like a little bump on the noggin.

Okay. And they say two masked men, and there's video of two mask men coming in and shooting him. And the weird part is a couple of days after he is killed, this business partner comes to his wife, Alicia, and he's like, hey, I need you to sign, you know, the insurance policies for your family. Like he owned half the business. You'll get $500,000. And she's like, listen, I don't, right, let me bury my husband first. Right. Like, give me a beat. And then I'll come back to you. And so she, she, you. goes in her husband's email. She's like looking. She didn't know really a lot about the insurance policies. And she's already like not loving, Dave. Like there's been some like disputes. And she finds that there is eight million dollars of life insurance taken out on her husband for their HVAC company. Okay. Well, Rhodes point to. She gets a lawyer and they're like, hey, let's make sure we have the paperwork in order. We're going to make sure the company is split 50-50 that you get half of that. They get everything in order. They go to sign the paperwork. And the insurance company is like, what do you mean? You already signed the paperwork. work. We have your signature. The money has been paid out to his business partner, Dave Sweetman.

No. So she has to fight tooth and nail to get some kind of settlement that they decide on. And his case is unsolved. Yeah, those things just don't make sense. No, they wrap my brain because I'm like, what are we talking about? I am a civilian. And I'm like, hello? Yes, I'm pointing fingers, but it's obvious. So we looked into Dave, his business partner, Dave Sweetman, and we're like, who is this guy, like, as part of the episode? And weirdly, nowhere in Nick's case file does this show up, but we found out that Dave Sweetman had a wife named Laura Sweetman,

who, seven years before Nick Cordova died, Laura Sweetman dies mysteriously in her home after she had filed for divorce from him. And her case was ruled undeterred. Herman Manor and cause of death. There was not even a newspaper article about this woman's death. That happens all the time. It's unbelievable. All the time. So those are the ones that I'm like very deep into. We just did like three parts on Nick Cordova's case, Laura Sweetman's case. And then we just got someone in the Maricopa County Sheriff's Office in Arizona has to be a fan because they released to us all this audio from a domestic violence incident. No. So then we dropped

all of the audio in our feed. And so I'm like, I feel like I'm like hot on the trail. We're like getting like, active tips on this. Oh, I love that. The stuff we do is like a lot older. I'm like, I feel like this is like happening in real time. So, it's kind of wild. I mean, I'm not like smiling. I'm happy.

I'm like, it's just so exciting that potentially you'll be able to help this family because that is crazy. I'm excited for Alicia. I'm excited for Laura's family because like she can't get police to do anything. Like Laura's case has never been investigated really like since 2013. Well, it's like that. I think they were in Arizona too. Lori Valo.

Yes. Oh, my God. Lori Valo. Oh, yeah. And she was hiding in Hawaii, her and her new husband. But the brother was killing everyone. Yeah, that's bananas. There's some wild. But no one, like three of the men in her life were dead. Three of his wives were dead or whatever, the women in his life. Then for the brother that was doing on the emergency dive, a heart attack randomly. Right? Yeah. Wink. Wink. What are we talking about? The poor kids. It's horrible. You guys know I recently got a puppy, peppermint, and I'm not even going to pretend I'm normal about it. I fully accept that I've become one of those dog parents, the kind who takes way too many photos, talks to their dog like they're a person, and somehow she ends up having a better daily routine than I do. Peppermint already has multiple beds around the house, a rotation of toys, and honestly, I catch myself checking on her like she's a toddler.

But if you're a dog parent, I feel like you get it. They really do become a part of the family. And if anyone understands that level of obsession, it's Ollie. They're just as obsessed with your dog as you are. Ollie makes fresh food for dogs that's developed by real chefs and backed by vet nutritionists. So you know your pup is getting high quality meals made with ingredients you can feel good about. And what I love is that everything is personalized to your dog. When you start, they cook. create a plan based on your dog's needs and portion the meals just for you. It even comes with a pup tainer and a scoop, so feeding them is super easy. But Ollie doesn't just stop at food. Through their app, you can actually check in on your dog's health with real vets. You upload a picture

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for my audience. Receive 30% off your first subscription order. Go to Armura, dot com slash Chloe or enter Chloe to get 30% off your first subscription order. That's A-R-M-R-A.com slash Chloe. Sometimes I'm just like, there'll be a case where I'm like, everything's there. How are we like even like... Not paying attention to it. And then you've got like, I know you, your sister, I've worked with like a ton of like wrongful convictions. And then I'm like, but you can convict someone on like absolutely nothing. I think about that all the time. Like it really just, it shows you just kind of how broke, not. broke, well, broken the justice system is, but just how, like, it's, it differs from like state to state

jurisdiction to jurisdiction, judge to judge. Yes. Where, and I think that's the thing that has bummed me out the most. People are like, how do you live in this content all the time? And I'm like, it's not, some people are built for it. But I was like, it's not the content that that depresses me. I was like, I, there's always going to be bad people out there doing bad things. The thing that has really gotten to me doing this for eight and a half years is like, oh, I actually used to believe that there was a system in place that would write the wrongs and catch the bad guys and fix the things. And I just don't like know that I believe in that system anymore. And that's something that I relate to because doing prison reform stuff with Kim.

I mean, it's Kim's ship and she's driving it. But I've been apart with her on so many journeys. But realizing that it's not always about getting the right person, they just want to pin it on someone. Yeah. It's about being a win. Yes. And that's so devastating. Because I'm like, wait, so you don't care that the killer or burying.

burglar, whoever is still out there. You just want to make your town feel safe by saying that they got the guy. It's unbelievable. It's really unbelievable. And like you said about even the DNA testing, I've watched like law and order and all this stuff. And it's like you see these shows. They move in this fast pace episode beginning, middle end. It takes months, if not years, if not at all, to get the DNA testing. And like in my head, I'm like, what do you mean? Just test them. And in 48 hours, we're going to get the results back, right? It's crazy. There's a The missing person's case out of New Mexico right now, Melissa Cassius, day by day. I'm like, you could sway me. Someone did something to her. She walked away. There's so many weird elements to

this case. But there is this like spot of blood that's found in her house that people were suspicious of. They do like the presumptive testing that says, yes, this is blood, but we don't know if it's hers. We don't know what it is. We have to send it off her testing. She went missing in June of 2025. It is almost a year now. And they still don't have the results back from that. So why? How? How? I don't know. I don't know. I am like, so what are you hiding? Like, who's involved? I'm very, I love a conspiracy. I'm like, yeah, I will feed into that. Do you have any thoughts on that Amy Bradley case? I really think she's still alive. I do too. It's so funny. I right before it came out on Netflix,

because I've been following that case for like years and years. But obviously so many people like really got invested when Netflix did their thing. And I had a meeting at Netflix. And I was kind of in the room with a people who were in charge of all their true crime stuff and who were making it. And they were fighting in the room. Like they all had different theories. And some people were like hardcore fighting that like she just fell overboard. And I was like that is, that's like the only thing I don't believe happened. Don't believe it. Correct. I think she had, do you think the picture was her? Yeah. I do. I do. I do too. I mean, when they, especially when they do the comparisons and like it's with AI technology. I mean, I do. It just is like, it was. It was like, it was so. So the only thing I was like, it was so brazen. Like, you didn't think that this would become a big story. I mean, but I guess they got away with it. So. Well, not even that. Where my conflict is with that. So let's say she is alive. And I want her to be. But now we've publicly admitted where they think she is and what they think she's doing. And so I don't think that's going to go over too well. Because I'm assuming if the kidnappers, abductors, whoever have her, they might not be watching it. Someone they know.

was watching it and saying, hey, they're on your tail. They're going to move her around. So that's the only thing where I feel bad that it got so big in public. I think that everyone's intentions were in the right place. But I don't think people thought that through all the way. Do you think that they were actually closing in, though? Because I think that's the balance or the hard part where I'm always like, yeah, but it's been, you know, we deal with cases. I'm like, okay, but it's been 30 years, 40 years. Like, you had all this time to do something. If you haven't done it now, is the only thing we haven't tried. I think true. I get that. But also knowing like every holiday she would go to the website and they were able to find the IP address. And not that they knew the exact location, but they knew proximity. And that what the island isn't like this massive island, I'm like just fucking walk around. I don't know. Honestly, if you like would have put out a bulletin, I think you could have gotten the crime junkies to do. We would have all gone on like a week vacation to like find Amy Bradley crime junkie trip. I think you guys should still try to do that. I really think you should. should. So I don't know, but in my gut, do I think she's alive? I do. I do too. My sister and I,

we spoke to the family after the documentary and they, they definitely think she's still alive and have high hopes. Yeah. And I, you know, most families do, but this is one where I'm like, yeah, I think they're like their hopes are in the right place. I think that that she's out there still. I think that there's a good chance of finding her. It's just like, you know, who is she now? Yeah. All these years later. I agree with that. But I think there's an Amy to find for sure. You said you grew up religious, where it was almost like cult-like. Did that impact your, I'm going to say, obsession with true crime? Like, do you think that pushed you in that direction at all? Did it filter you at all? I kind of wonder, not because of like the elements of like growing up in there, but to your point of like, you could watch Harry Potter, but you could watch this. It was like it was that like that outlet of like while everyone else is getting to listen to like Britney Spears and like do all this stuff that I couldn't do. I got true crime. And so, like, I went all in on, like, the one secular thing I could have. Because it's all you could have. So I get that. Is your mom still into true crime?

Oh, yeah. Okay. My mom's still a big crime junkie. I love that, though. Like, my mom, she doesn't really, oh, she does. She likes dateline every Friday. That's her thing. But she won't get as, like, knee deep as, like, Kim and I will spiral into these dark holes. Well, because the date line is good, I think, for, like, the casual of you. because Dateline usually comes in like a neat package. Like there's, there's an end. You know who did it. You can, you don't want to, you don't spiral so much.

Whereas, like, I think that's the difference. Being a crime junkie is like, I want to, I want to argue with someone about the case. I want to talk theories. Yes. I want to spiral. So there's the Dateline audience and then there's crime junkies and we do overlap every once in a while. I do love an argument over a case of any sort. For people that are maybe too obsessed with crime, like do you think,

think, I know you're like, what does that mean? I literally was like, who's to obsess? Yeah. But do you think this ever turns into an unhealthy obsession where people become paranoid at all, like, hours of the day, as opposed to being, like, vigilant and using these tools for them? I think it can. I mean, I've heard, I've had people be like, I had to stop listening for a little while because it was becoming all-consuming. Yes, some people are like just built where they can like hand a little more. I think people can, like, come in and come out. And I also think it's why, like, we're really intentional. doing like different types of episodes because there are so many important like lessons or educational pieces that I want people to hear or about to do an episode about AI kidnappings,

which the scams, which I don't know if you've like heard of, but I've heard of some, I don't know if this is what you're talking about, but where like either people are pretending to be someone else through AI, like changing voices, all of that stuff. There was a woman who was with her daughter at a dance. class and her husband and her other daughter were like on a ski vacation. She's like sitting in the car waiting for her and she gets this phone call and it's her daughter on the phone freaking out and is like mom, like, mom, I did something bad. I'm so sorry. She's crying, crying, crying. She's like, I know my daughter's crying. And this guy gets on the phone and is like, you have to bring this money to X, Y, and Z location.

And as she's got like people around her trying to figure out what's going on, one of them calls her husband. And he's like, what are you talking about? I'm with my, with our daughter right now. And this is becoming a huge new scam where they're taking. a couple of bites from people's social media where they're talking or my podcast where I'm talking all day every day and creating voice models to extort people for kidnapping. So there are like, I have heard about this. Different types of cases. So I do think that some people can get really paranoid, but I hope they like keep coming back right now. I'm working on like the weirdest catfishing story I've ever encountered. Still in today's day and age, the fact that we're still catfishing is crazy.

It's kind of wild. It's kind of wild. Okay. So this one. one is 2010. So I know it's hard for people to remember, but this is like we've got dating websites, but no one's swiping. So this is website time, 2010, and this woman named Anna Akbar, she's a PhD, she's beautiful, she's smart, she's engaging. She is online dating and she meets this guy named Ethan. And things are like, you know, online dating, everyone's like, yo, what's up, let's meet? The conversations are just like duds. Yeah. And she meets. Ethan who went to MIT and who wants to talk about politics and culture and movies. And it's just like the most amazing conversation she's ever had. And she's up all hours of the night. I mean,

like, I think 42, 72 hours straight, just like talking to him. And it is this like weird chain of events where at first they can't meet because she is like going on a vacation. And then there's like this wild snowstorm. They're in New York City. And it's just like thing after thing. And some of it is on her. So she's like not even suspicious at first. But then she starts, okay, we've got a, we've got to meet in person at some point. And, you know, there's excuse after excuse. And two months in, she's like getting really like, okay, something is up here. And Ethan, all of a sudden has cancer. And it's like the telltale signs, like anyone who's watched catfish, like, you know. And then he gets manipulative. It's turning in on her. Why, like, why can't just be

supportive? And she's like, let me come be there and be supportive with you. He's like, no, I don't want you to see me like this. And so she is so suspicious two months in that she starts like, like, I'm going to, I'm going to figure out who Ethan is. And the school he said that he went to for high school, MIT, she's like, I actually know someone who went to both. And she reaches out to this guy. And the guy's like, you know, it's so weird.

Someone else reached out to me to ask about this guy. Oh, that's weird. Mm-hmm. So she goes to this other woman. turns out this woman has the same interaction with Ethan and has been like trying to meet up for even longer but they live out of state and they kind of like team up

and they together realize that there was like this third woman who Ethan would always kind of use against them his ex his ex from like London or something British they call her British Anna they're like maybe she's actually real and so they find her she has been in this like years long relationship with Ethan never met and it is like it's not just

that he won't meet them. It's like the amount of manipulation and control, and it's not, he never asked for money. He just like takes all their time, all their attention. I mean, I don't know how he was doing this three times because the messages are all day every day. They come together. And this is where it's like a catfish story like I've never heard because like I've heard every catfish story. And they find out that Ethan is this woman named Emily Slutsky. Like you couldn't make the name. It's her real name. You couldn't make it up. Stop. Well, I wouldn't need to catfish too. that was mine. She, well, that's the crazy part, right? Anytime I hear about catfish, catfishing, they're like these, like, sad, lonely people who just like wish they had a different life. Okay, so she really went to MIT. Oh, wow. She is now the assistant medical director over women's health. Because she's an OBGYN. And how does she have time for this? Who's actively, like, taking care of women all day, every day. They have reported her to her medical school to the chairman at their hospital. And everyone's like, no, because they've saved every message. And it's

like, it's twisted. I don't know. Like, it's like a game for her. And she doing the voice. Well, before she wasn't. She wouldn't get on the phone or she would like they would talk to Ethan's sister, who would be her. Got it. And she swears she's not doing it anymore. But I'm like with AI being what it is now. We just talked about AI. But also the addiction this is. And this was all consuming. And like, I think all of us, all of me, I mean, now I'm so invested. I've been, I've been working with on a Bari. So she wrote a whole book about this called There Is No Ethan. I bought the rights to it because I'm like deeply obsessed. And I've got our investigative team looking into where Emily went to high school, like how this is like manifesting. Is she still doing this? Like is do her patients know this? Right. Like you're going to go see someone to do your pap smear or like deliver your baby. No, you're fucking unwell. Yes. You should not be doing that. Wild. That is crazy. So she, after the book came out, she went by her married name, Emily Morantz. Smart in general.

But, well, maybe she's going to change it again. I don't know. Right. These weren't like, these were like really brilliant, smart women, successful women that Ethan, Emily was targeting. And I mean, like, what I love about the story, too, is like, it can be anyone. It's not like, you don't, like, you're not a sad person if you fall for something like this. So this happens. And it is like the people, I mean, I swear there's like, mind.

games, like the way they talk about like mind control and keeping you up and sleep deprivation. And oh, for sure. I think it can happen to anyone. And I know people get like, oh, how, how does it happen? And it's just you also believe what you want to believe, right? Like them dating apps, it's hard out there. And they're getting these people at very vulnerable times. They really are. This episode is brought to you by Ophill, the first over-the-counter daily birth control pill available in the U.S. I think one thing that doesn't get talked about enough is the mental load of managing everyday life. all the little things that you have to plan, schedule, remember, it adds them quickly. Did you know that about a third of women face barriers to accessing prescription birth control,

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Honestly, tickets are one of my favorite gifts to give because you're not just giving them a thing. You're giving them a whole night, an entire memory. That's everything to me. Make sure you click the link in the description to do. download the app. Have the code automatically added to your account so you can use it later. Thank you, Seat Geek. Do you have like your top five things that you can do to stay vigilant to be aware of your surroundings? I mean, we have crime don't get life rules that have like come up over the course of eight episodes. Life rules. Yeah, our life rules. And some of them are like,

I mean like basic ones that it's not a thing to do, but it's like you never know anyone ever. And it's that idea that you don't know what happens behind closed doors. You don't know how people are going to behave when they feel cornered or in a bad situation. This idea that it can't happen here or happen to me, most crime happens by someone who you know. Like it's not it's not that random serial killer that we're all the most afraid of. It's like people who are in your life. We talk a lot about like, you know, like don't stay in certain places. Avoid like certain areas. We've got like if you're ever in a situation, never take a polygraph. Always get a lawyer. I don't care if you think it makes you look guilty. It will be the thing that keeps you out of prison. So we've got our like crime junkie life rules. Okay. Noted. We also created our like if I go missing folder because, you know, we realized how little sometimes police will push or sometimes they even know. And so it's literally like this file that we've gotten people who have reached out and be like this actually like saved my loved one. It's just like a list of like if I go missing, these are the things to do. And we're, we're

working on more and more resources like that because I found so many families, nobody prepares to be a true crime episode. Yeah. And so many families, you hope and pray that law enforcement are going to take care of you. But like I said, we're finding more and more, that's not the case. And people are having to be their own investigator, their own advocate. And so we're trying more and more to create resources to be like, I'm in this impossible situation. What do I do? And where can you find those resources? So right now that if I go missing folder is on our website, crime junkie.com. And we're going to be building out an entire resources. tab coming soon with those like, how do I file a foia? How do I get records? What do I need to

ask for? That I think is going to be really helpful for families. What case are you besides the Arizona one that you're the most embedded in right now? I think it's this Melissa Casillas one, this woman who went missing last year in 2025. She left work, or she dropped her husband off at work. They work like an hour and 15 minutes away at Los Alamos National Laboratory. And she works in a different building than him. She normally drops him off and then goes to her building. But she drops him off and she drove home for some reason. And she told her daughter that she forgot her work badge. She was just going to work from home. But we know that's not true because she used her work badge to like get in to drop him off. Oh. And she's seen dropping her sandwich off that afternoon at her

daughter's work. So she's like alone. She's fine. She's okay. But then she just stops responding to messages. And so her daughter comes home. Her husband comes home from work. work and they find her keys, her purse, her wallet, and both of her old phone and her new phone, factory wiped. And like her iCloud account has been wiped. That is really hard to do. It is. Yeah. That's what I hear. That's really hard to do. That's what the agent told us. Even if you think you've wiped it. Wait, have you wiped your eye cloud before? No. Okay. No. You spoke with an authority. Oh, no. Because we've been like, how does this still exist? And they're like, no matter how many times you think you delete something, like, it's really never gone.

Yes. And so for something to be factory wiped, like even, I mean, people do like resets on phones all the time. That's easy. Yeah. The ICloud reset is strangely hard, but like, completely. And so for a long time, her husband, like, truly does and says all the weirdest things to where it's easy to go with, like, the old true crime trope of, like, husband did it. Right.

But then they find video footage of her. Her walking alone when we know he's at work, her daughter's at work, and she's walking along the highway by herself with a backpack. On the highway? Yeah, which is like near their home and never to be seen again. That's so weird. So did she look out of it? Nope. She was like walking just like purposefully.

Okay. Heading east to we don't know where. There was like a sighting of someone that saw a blue truck near her. And then when they looked back, her and the truck were gone. So they don't see her go into the truck, but it's kind of like the insinuation. And everyone wonders, like, did she walk away? Did she get, did something happen to her? Was she just on a walk?

And then something happened to her? Did someone plan something? She recently, there was an article that came out that is maybe connecting her to all those, like, I don't know if you've gotten served this. So like missing murdered scientists. Yes, the 11. So she worked at Los Angeles National Laboratory. No. She was an administrative assistant.

When people do stuff with like Big Pharma, those people go missing. I understand because you're going to interfere with Big Pharma, a trillion dollar industry. Cool. Isn't this helping our government and everything? But I don't think it's our government that's doing. No, I don't either. For this instance, because what these scientists are doing is so helpful for our government and for us, from what I understand. Yeah.

So who is doing this? I know if it was that. I mean, like, I don't know. Right. But I'm not the one with all the secrets. But I don't know. It's like, to me, it's like big corporation. It's insane.

It's also getting to the point where it's like weird now, right? Like 11 people is like, why isn't our government more interested in this? Why are we like just like us fringe people on the internet sounding like weirdos? It was bizarre that like not one acknowledgement of this. I'm like. Some of our like biggest secrets, some of the biggest like advanced. And we're talking about plasma. We're talking about aerospace engines. Like, you got to be, I need to, okay, I'm going to send you this like this, this seems to say a Reddit thread, but it is. Like, of these, there's one woman who recently ruled her death as suicide. But these messages came out that she had sent someone that she knew before she died. And it's like the craziest read. If you haven't seen these yet, I have to send this to me. I have to send them to you. And like TBD, people want to go down the rabbit hole. You can like link out to them. Yes, I need to read this. So few questions that I have that I've always, and I don't, I know you're not part of the police, but for like, not yet, not yet, the Idaho murders.

Yeah. So Brian Coburger, something like that where he, he did it. There's not a question if he did do it or didn't do it. I have a few questions. So one, why are we making, like, why does anyone make the family go through this, trial have to relive all of this. I get it's a sentencing thing. Is it death row or is it how long the term is? But I've always wondered if it's that concrete, like we know this happened, why do they make the families go through all of that? Well, they don't, I guess they don't make them. Brian Cooper has a

right to a trial. Like, I mean, it's, this is the framework of how the justice system is supposed to work. Like, you're supposed to be giving your day in court for the times when it isn't, you know, they got the wrong person. Right. Or. to prevent corruption. I mean, again, I think it's not exactly working as it's intended. But I also think that like a good prosecutor involves the family in those decisions to where if they're going to offer a plea deal, a good prosecutor works with the family and they decide that together. So that way the family can decide like sometimes they want to go to trial because trial is what actually will provide answers. Because oftentimes in a plea deal situation, you don't have to say anything.

But that's what I heard the family's so upset about. I heard that they, gave him a plea deal without the families knowing. And now he's just sitting there silently, like, I don't have to explain anything. Exactly. Or I would have been like, I will do whatever. I need to know why the fuck you did this. Why them? I know. And this is one where I think that they're getting a lot of backlash because they took the deal. And it's like they're, you know, they're saying we saved taxpayer money by doing this. Like it was very clear cut. And then, I mean, you kind of wonder, like, is the why as important in this one? I mean, he's, you know, he's clearly like off his rocker, like a sociopath.

Yeah. And like those, those cases are really strange where it's like, was, you know, he was clearly studying up on this? Was he trying to commit the perfect murder? Do we need to do the families need to know why? I mean, they're entitled to it. But I don't know. I don't know if you would have gotten like, is there a satisfying answer?

Is there a satisfying why? No matter what he says, it's going to be nothing will make sense or be enough or justify anything or I don't know. No, I agree with you there. And that's a very good point. I understand, and I don't understand this part, why judges will issue like a gag order on the families or anybody involved. Don't speak about this to the media because we don't want to sway the jury in any way. And I respect that privacy. But also, this is 2026. The juries are going to be exposed to some media outlet. Like for me, God forbid, I was in that position. I would rather it be like from our mouths, like the truth as opposed to who knows. knows what other media outlets are going to say and if it's going to be the right information. Oh, I agree, but I think that's part of the problem is, like, I don't know that in court juries hear

the full story. There are so many rules about what can be admitted and what can't be admitted. And, I mean, that's why so many cases get overturned on the defense of, like, poor counsel. It's like you're as good as your lawyer or as good at the investigator that your lawyer has. And so what they're trying to protect isn't necessarily, like, the truth or even the case that they're trying to protect the case that gets presented. And I agree. I think that's frustrating. Like, I think that we should be able to just, like, lay out everything and make a decision based on everything, not have to, like, jump through these weird loopholes that, again, I know we're there to try and, like, protect us and to make sure that nobody gets railroaded. It's just, this is where it's

like, hey, what we're doing isn't working. Right. We should maybe, like, start over. And it's 20s, 26, we have to update the systems. Yes. Yes. We're dealing with stuff like tech and all these things that like is, it's like a foreign world compared to how it was 100 years ago. I'm always fascinated about the medium aspect. Like I know sometimes in missing children's cases or I know that mediums do get along. Some do work with law enforcement. Yeah. What do you feel about that? I'm, I'm into it. So I think like anything, it's so, sad because I feel like so many families get taken advantage of in like a time when like they're already going through the worst thing. Right. People will be, we'll reach out to them and exploit them.

I mean like shady PIs, people who, you know, say their dogs can do magic when they can't and mediums. But I like very much believe in something big. I just don't think that like the world as we know it is just like that black and white. And I've seen enough. And I've seen enough. or had enough experiences that I think that there are some very legit people who can tap into something. Like, I've seen them solve cases. I've seen them locate people no one else can find. And so when it's the right person, the right family mother, the right circumstances, they're, you know, they're not in it for anything other than trying to solve it. And especially for the cases that are like, you'll try anything.

Like, why not? Right. It's, you know, if they're not exploiting the family, there really is no harm. Right. And if you've tried everything else, sometimes this is like the only thing. And so I mean, I've worked with a ton of families who have really, really believed in it or even been like really changed. I recently, did you follow the Gabby Petito thing at all? Yes.

I recently met her stepdad. And he was like, you know, I was always like, I went to this, you know, something where there was this medium. And, you know, it's like, someone in the audience had someone die. And he's like, I'm like, oh, okay. And he's like, but then after the thing, you know, there's no cameras. There's no nothing. This person comes up to me and just says something that like, there's. there's no way they could have no one.

And stuff like that will happen. And I think that like it can, it can be very helpful. And sometimes it doesn't lead you to anything, but it can bring a lot of peace, which I think is its own help. I believe in all that stuff too. You do. Yeah. I do. And I think, like you said, some, there's good doctors, there's bad doctors, there's good lawyers, about, like everything there's bad and good too.

And I think some take advantage. But I think there are some that come from a place of good and really want to help. Yeah. And for that, I really appreciate that gift. I think that's what it's here for. You're talking about serious cases here. Like, do you ever get afraid like maybe I said too much? Because you have so many eyes and ears on you. I am like, or do you not think about that. Oh, I think about it. But I actually am on the opposite end where it's like it's what I love about podcasting and how quick something can come out into the world is because I think that like truth is the best offense. And like the more people can talk about this stuff, like that is that protects you. more than anything else. And maybe I'm being naive. No, I agree with what you're saying. I think if you can draw attention to it, if you can give people talking about things, putting yourself in a spotlight, putting the issue in a spotlight, it's like the dark shit happens in the shadows. Yes, it does. So what's next for you? So we're, I just hired a head of TV and film. So as much as I love podcasting, and podcasting is, it will always be the center of what I do. Like this, this medium,

it's like so wonderful, especially for investigative journalism. But there are so many stories that I just think need to be brought to a bigger audience. So we just brought a head of TV and film on to bring some of our IP to those areas in scripted, but really like in documentaries, making our, you know, crime junkie into a version of a TV show. So I think we'll be doing that. That would be great. I'm like jazzed for it. I'm really like passionate about this like side project I have where I want to make crime junkie Jr. So I.

What's that? Well, there's been like nothing since Nancy Drew. Yes. That's really like what Nancy Drew was for me. Exactly. And I'm like, I think there is, because I hear from moms all the time. They're like, don't think I'm a bad mom. I let my like 10 year old listen.

And I'm like, I was that 10 year old. And so I'm like there's, I think there's a really like great space for mysteries for this content, especially for the educational content. These kids are faced with just like a world that like I couldn't even wrap my head around when I was that age. If we can prepare them, if we can educate them, I think not talking about this stuff is what it's what I said about the kid episodes. It's like, you've got to know what you're dealing with to know how to prevent it, to fight it. And so I think there's a whole world of content for like the next gen of crime junkies that I want to make. My stepdad, we would watch

Rescue 9-1-1 and Unolved Mysteries together. I miss Robert Stack every day of my life. Oh my gosh. That is crazy. No, but like not even by my choice. Like that's what he would watch. And then I would just be laying in bed like fascinated. And it's probably what started all this. Who knows? I never remember being scared at night. It wasn't that. Like it's just something. It's strange. Like you're, it was just some like how you said some people are just built for it. Built for it. And I think that's. I was just built to watch that. Unsolved mysteries. I always joke that John Walsh was my first boyfriend because we would spend every Saturday night's mother. Same. He was cheating on you with me and vice versa. But yeah, I love that for you because it's, that's something that we are missing. And I've got, I mean, my daughter's four now. And so as she, like I see her, like she loves if I tell her a mystery story. And I'm like, oh, there's like, there's my little crime junkies out there. Yeah. And generational. She'll be. Oh, yeah. You next. That's crazy. That's so fun. That is fun. Is there anything that you don't tell her? Like, do you not want her to know about certain things? I mean, like, I don't talk to her about, like, you know, gruesome crimes or anything like that. I mean, we talk about a lot about danger.

And I don't even say stranger danger because, like I said earlier, most of the time, especially with kids, the danger is somebody that they know. It's a good point. And so we talk about, like, about it not being her job to make people comfortable and about boundaries. and we talk about what's normal and not normal what to do if she feels uncomfortable, there are no secrets, there are only surprises, because surprises people find out about. An adult's never going to ask you to keep a secret. So I'm using a lot of... I love that wording.

Yeah. I mean, it's something that I don't remember where I heard it from, but I'm like, that's so important. I was like, an adult will never ask you to keep a secret. There can be surprises. We're like, you know, dad's doing something, but mom's going to find out. Right. And we're going to share that. I love that.

That's like, I'm like, I tell everyone to try and instill that in their kids because it's, you know, it's all about shame. And it's never their job to protect someone either. Right. Because I do no secrets, but my daughter does spill the beans because you're not allowed of a secret. But that's so smart to say no secrets, but there can be surprises. Yeah. Yeah. I love that. Ashley Flowers, this was amazing. Thank you so much. I loved this. I could go on and on, but you and I will get canceled or something. We'll have to do like a little true crime corner sometimes. Conspiracy corner. Yes, conspiracy corner. I need that. I had so much fun. And I have so many other cases and so many other things.

But we'll save that for another time. Thank you. This is wonderful. Thank you.