Kill James Bond! - S4E1: Heat

Episode Date: November 16, 2024

Thats right folks, it's a whole new season, it's a whole new look (Courtesy of John Delucca), it's a whole new us! But in most of the really critical ways it is very much the same us.  It's time for the long-awaited "Heist Szn"(sic)- and we open with a little film called Heat. You may have heard of it. Joining us is Dr. M.R. Geldof, host of the Dr Violence podcast! ----- FREE PALESTINE Hey, Devon here. For the past few months I've been talking to a family trapped in Gaza, working to cover their daily living costs amidst repeated displacements in the Genocide. Their names are Ahmed and Layla, and their 4 kids are Jana, Malik, Lana and Amir. Anything you can contribute would mean the world to me. They deserve to live. They deserve to survive. https://www.gofundme.com/f/a8jzz-help-me-and-my-family-get-out-of-the-gaza-strip https://www.map.org.uk/donate/donate ----- Consider supporting us on our reasonably-priced patreon! https://www.patreon.com/killjamesbond ------ WEB DESIGN ALERT Tom Allen is a friend of the show (and the designer behind our website). If you need web design help, reach out to him here:  https://www.tomallen.media/ Kill James Bond is hosted by November Kelly, Abigail Thorn, and Devon. You can find us at https://killjamesbond.com

Drop of a hat, these guys will rock and roll. Hello and welcome to another episode of Kill James Bond, the first one of Robbery Season. I am November Kelly, I am joined as always by my co-conspirators Abigail Thorne and Devon. NOLAN Hello! ARIEL How ya doin'? ALICE And we have a guest, Dr. Mark Geldof, historian of violence, is joining us.

MARK Hello! ARIEL Hell yes! NOLAN Hell yeah! MARK Thank you for having me. It's our pleasure. It's it's been a hot minute since I decided to like do this and since you know I pitched this to you, Mark, and I'm like, we finally got here after a long long sort of season of Euro Spy. And I guess to start with, I wanna kind of sess out my stool of why move from spy movies to a heist movie genre, why the genre switch.

And part of the answer is, eventually we're gonna do every movie. And this is a convenient way of organizing them. SONIA I think part of our answer also has to be, like, Kill James Bond has excelled in every area. We've like, spy movies, Euro spy movies, superhero movies, except crime! ALICE Yeah, exactly. And I think that, as we saw with Diabolic, they're kind of linked genres, right?

They're both like, fantasies of masculinity, of violence, of power, and in this case it's about being an outsider in the sense that you're tougher and smarter than the law, and I think it says something about society, about masculinity, all the rest of it. LWIEN I think this movie says a lot about women, too. NONE OF IT GOOD! ALICE No. No.

No, not at all. But this is Heat, Michael Mann's film, I think it's one of, if not my favorite film, it's one of the most impactful films I've ever seen on me. And I think it's one of the best heist, or best robbery, or best crime films I've ever seen. Which is interesting, because I found an interview with Michael Mann where he's like, yeah, it's not a crime film. So that's the thesis out the window already, it's gone.

RILEY Alright, well, fortunately the author's dead, and we know that. It's clearly a crime film. RILEY And we have killed him. ALICE He describes it as being like a kind of symphonic, operatic film, that it doesn't really, y'know, the genre doesn't really matter to it. RILEY It's about robbers, it's a crime film, don't be a dick.

I will say though that it's fucking great. It is self-indulgent, certainly. I don't actually remember the first time I saw this, but I was kicking around when the thing came out, and I remember at the time thinking, this movie's just shy of three hours, and it feels like it was shot at six hours and then cut. And actually, I mean, it's a remake of a made for TV movie that was supposed to be a pilot for a series that man wanted to run.

Yeah, LA takedown. Yeah. Or I think also, was it made in LA? And it has a couple of different titles. And some stuff is shot, well, almost shot for shot, in this, and some stuff is completely changed. But then I mean, it's, there's stuff in this that I'm sure is just for Manned, and that we're even expected to catch.

ALICE It's really like, or to her, in the sense of like, if they don't like the movie that you want to make, keep making it until they do. Just like, I have brought you another version of this scene, will you make the movie now? And the studios go, okay, will you make this movie on time and under budget? Michael Mann goes, no. He's using the Mel Brooks tactic of when producers give you notes, you just say, yeah, yeah, yeah, it's a great idea, and then don't do it.

ALICE & TK & LL & TK & LL Immediately notes straight into the bin. ALICE & TK Yeah. So this movie is, it's a movie about crime, certainly, it's a movie about men, it's a movie about loneliness and alienation. And where better to give you an attitude of loneliness and alienation than the light rail in Los Angeles. Weirdly enough, this is a common thing in LA, I don't know why Angelo and I just don't like their light rail system, but they always use it in movies to convey fundamental atomization,

it's a thing in Bardo as well. RILEY The father of Goku? ALICE Yeah. LIAM He becomes a key plot element, or story element anyway, collateral. And so, his remake of himself, I dunno, I'm sure you'll get to that one eventually. ALICE Oh yeah. Also, I should say, as we acknowledge this is a two hour fifty movie, so we are gonna be like, necessarily brushing past some stuff.

RILEY We might have to shift through this, yeah. ALICE Actually, do I just hand the reins reins to Abi here, for like, plot something? Yeah, Robert De Niro gets off the light rail in LA, I mean, I'm one to talk, but this goatee sucks, I'm sorry, man. I also made this mistake... Everybody in this movie looks kind of shit, is the thing, there's nobody really, like, aspirational, like, oh I wanna be like De Niro and Heat, cause it's like, De Niro and Heat is a guy wearing a really boxy, like, double jacket open all the time, with a prominent mole and a

goatee, and you're just like, hmmm. ALICE I think we'll get to the aspirational looks when we do the Ocean series, and you've got Brad Pitt cuttin' about. JUSTIN That was 95 for you. ALICE Yeah, this movie came out in 1995, so 20 years before I was born. I love the editing in this sequence, it's so jumpy as he walks into this hospital, cause he's like looking around and he's noticing everything and he's nervous, and he steals

an ambulance. ALICE Yeah. Which, you can just do that, it turns out, they're free, they usually have the keys in them, y'know, the NHS doesn't like it but they can't stop you. Meanwhile, we see across town Al Pacino is having a weird sex scene. RILEY Yeah, it's in his contract, he has to be introduced making love, I think. You see, across town, Al Pacino is having a weird sex scene. Yeah. It's in his contract, he has to be introduced making love, I think. Oh, I got the chains.

So in 1995, intimacy coordinators had not yet been invented, and part of the job of an intimacy coordinator is to make sex scenes safe on set, but also part of them is to make it look good. So what we cut to is Al Pacino eating a woman faceless. Like, do I fuck, do you kiss like that, bro? You just like, ho-ah! Like, he's a fuckin' hogfish. Just, quack!

ALICE He's got an interesting kind of technique for this, and also looks kind of gross, like he's very very tan to the point that he looks a bit kind of leathery, he's wearing a big St. Christopher medal, he's got a kind of puffed up hair. RILEY He doesn't look it. RILEY Yeah, Rez and Al Pacino fuck her hair, he's on the way out, in 1995. So is Val Kilmer, Val Kilmer had one more year left in him but he's still hot here. ALICE Absolutely. RILEY Everybody looked like this in 95, I mean, I

can confirm. RILEY God, is that true? RILEY And actually, I mean, if anybody has some serious Google foo, everybody's goatee looked like that too, including mine. I've filled out since, but yeah. It was rough. I went the other way, personally. That goatee is, you know, it's happened to us all.

We invented looking good sometime in the like 2010s, probably. I shaved so much of my goatee off, they took some of my chin with it! But so, across- He's fucking Natalie Portman's mom. He is. Natalie Portman, who is like, extremely stressed, and like, I don't know how young she is here, but like, child acting. Yeah. Like, 13, 14. She's really good in this.

Cause her dad is gonna come to visit, she can't find her shoes, and she's really really stressed by this, like, crying, cause she really wants to see her father separated from her mom. And Al Pacino the cop. ALICE We understand that the father has, like, routinely ghosted her because she has bad vibes. And Al Pacino's like, damn, that's crazy, what a massive piece of shit. By the way, I also have to leave urgently, for my cop job. RIght?

SONIA Yeah. Yeah. LIAM This will be a recurring theme, I think. Yes. And this point we have to meet the Joker. Yes. Yes. Let's meet some fellas. This is great, right, because we're doing the like, assembling the heist team thing,

in motion, in the heist that we are about to see done, and this is a great benchmark for how to economically introduce a character as a piece of shit. We meet Wayne Grow. Wayne Grow is gonna be central to my understanding of heist movies. I'm gonna use the term Wayne Grow moment a few times. How would we describe this man, aside from... We'll put his fuckin' face on a badge at some point. Aside from Lynch, from Kaneaan Lynch, you know?

Uhhh, it's kind of like long hair, a bit of a beard going on, like trying not to describe Mark. Yeah. Very self-confident. A much less handsome version of Mark. I'm gonna own that, yeah. There's a very visible distinction in that Waingrow, as we see him, sort of like, exit the like, shitty, not even apartment, shed he lives in, next to a Mexican restaurant.

And I should say, not the new kind of American Nazi, this is 1995, we're talking like, biker type, long hair Nazi. Prison type Nazi, like, Aryan Brotherhood type Nazi, which is why he's got the like, Sigrunes tattooed on the side of his neck. Totally. And you just go, oh okay, I get this guy pretty much instantly, you know, I can judge the book by the cover you're handing to me here. And he gets picked up in, like, a record, like a big tow truck, by Tom Sizemore, Guy We Love to See.

Hell yeah. This is a movie that's definitely in the Guy We Love to See category, I will be doing that a few more times. ALICE So we meet the crew, which is Waingrove, who's the new guy, he's been hired just today to be part of this heist, Michael, who's driving Waingrove around, and who notably at one point caused him slick, and also Danny Trejo is here, Val Kilmer is here, and Robert De Niro is here. LIAM Yes, yeah. RILEY Danny Trejo is here, Val Kilmer's here, and Robert De Niro is here. ALICE Yes.

Yeah. RILEY Danny Trejo's here-ish. SONIA Yeah. His character's even called Trejo. RILEY That's true, he's in his real name arc. When Tom Sizemore calls Wayne Gross slick, it's because Wayne Gross is nervous, right? He's like, asking a lot of questions, he's like, do you guys work together often? He's sort of like, trying to be...

He's being parasocial, right? He's being weird. RILEY Love your crimes. ALICE Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then Tom Sidesmore's like, just stop talking, okay? Because we are now going to do the heist, you're being picked up off the street to do the thing, instantly. And what it is, is a bit that GTA V ripped off, because this is a...

RILEY Just, if I've ripped off this whole fucking movie including Robert De Niro's character. This movie has been ripped off by so many different things in so many different directions, but they use the ambulance to block in an armored car, and they use the tow truck to ram it off the road, and blow open the back door with explosives. It is sick. To be absolutely clear, if this does not get your pulse racing, you are clinically dead. I actually had to re-watch it to check if there was a soundtrack, and there is some

music in the back, like just a rhythm kind of thing in the back. But you watch it the first time, you don't even notice it because it is so tightly put together. It's another one of the bits where you wonder, why did he put in so much detail in such a short sequence because if you need to you can tell all of the principles apart because they're all wearing slightly different hockey masks. Only Neal and Val Kilmer are using M4s, the other two guys have different guns. You can tell it's Danny Trejo once he comes out even though he's got a mask on because if you're watching you notice he's the one with the AK, and I mean, it's

all put together like you can tell it apart, except you don't need to. ALICE The way that they move as well, like, you see them kind of move to put the explosive charge on the back of the van, the way they draw a spike strip across the road to intercept the cops. And it's all so practiced, right, and this is a thing that I think Mann identifies with some of the later gunfights in this movie, is that the process of rehearsing for a movie is something that overlaps with a planned robbery very well. RILEY Yeah, I know. It looks so slick.

We learn a lot about them as well, we get that they're very... They know what the fuck they're doing, because they're listening to a police scanner, and the second it gets called in they start a three minute timer. So it's like, they know how long it takes for the cops to get there. Very very good. ALICE Yeah. And so they grab the security guards out of the back of the van, and Waingrow is sort of holding them at gunpoint.

You know it's Waingrow because he has a slightly different mask, as you say. And they've all been deafened by the explosive. And so while Tom Sizemore is going through the back of the van looking for... They're looking for a specific thing as well. JUSTIN Actually, it's Chris in the back. ALICE Oh, sorry they're looking for a specific thing as well. Actually it's Chris in the back. Oh, sorry, my bad. Val Kilmer.

It is Chris. They're looking for a specific package of bonds. But what happens is Waingrow has his Waingrow moment, right, which is, I'm gonna define as the guy you brought onto the heist crew who is, like, unbalanced and provocative and dangerous... A little too about a... Sadistic, like, unbalanced and provocative and dangerous. A little too about it. Sadistic, too. Escalates the situation.

He's sadistic, because he executes one of the guards for fun. He later protests, like, oh, he was making a move, the guy was not. He executes one of these guards for fun, and then I think he shoots another one, and then it's Michael who then just kills the third. Yeah. He shoots the one, and then one of the guards has a secondary on his ankle, so he goes for that. Mike, er, no, Neil, shoots him, then the third guy is just sort of...

The third guy is just standing there dazed and deafened, and they're like, what do we do with this guy? Neil gives the nod, and then Chris, Val Kilmer, shoots him with the... Actually, it's Mike who does that. Oh, fuck, okay. God damn it. This is too granular a level of... Sorry.

Yeah, my bad. He's the one with the FN. He gets shot, he gets shot twice in the chest and once in the head. It's like, very very practiced. And it's interesting as well, because, and they leave the scene ahead of the cops, who run into the spikes strip. And this is interesting to me, because it's a scene of something going wrong smoothly. Like, botched heist is kind of its own subgenre, right?

Where you see where the whole intricate plan falls apart, whereas what this is, is an intricate plan going wrong and then adapting to the circumstances. RILEY Yes. Which tells you a lot more about them than it just going right the first time, is that these guys are well practiced enough that they can adapt to situations. RILEY Exactly. ZACH And they get away. And then we go and Robert De Niro meets John Voight, who is their kind of like, crimes

wizard? RILEY John Voight. Looking bad as hell. RILEY Certified weirdo. We found this unsettling looking guy, he's gonna, like, organize our crimes. And he- Unfortunately, John Voight was available, so we didn't get James Cromwell. He proposes this scheme, which is, the bonds are insured, so the guy's gonna get 100% of their value back anyway, it's from this guy Van Zandt, these are whose bonds they've stolen.

He's a... Yeah, the villain from Zelda Twilight Princess. Yeah, he's a money launderer for Link and Zelda. And drug traffickers. And so, what they try on him is the idea of, like, okay, you're gonna get your insurance money back anyway, buy the bonds back from us, pay us to get robbed, essentially, and we've done you a service, you get whatever the value of them is after we launder them, plus the insurance claim,

you make a profit on us having robbed you. Kurtis? Just a thing to mention about Voight and Nate, apparently he's modeled, the character's modeled after a guy named Eddie Bunker, who is an advisor on this film, who was also sponsor for Trejo when he got out of prison. And he would have met John Voight on runaway train, because he was an advisor on that. And that's a prison break kind of movie. So it was all sort of tied up together. It's so cool how so much of Hollywood stuff is just meeting a guy and copying him.

Like... Well, I mean, that's where half the story of this film comes from, man anyway, from his cop connections in Chicago. The Waingrow, the name, is a real guy who apparently did this with some crews in Chicago in the 70s. I'm 100% honest, even if I was at a remove of like, 20 years, I would not be using the real names of like, Nazi criminals in my... Especially to be like, this guy's a dickhead for the whole movie.

Maybe they love that shit, y'know? Maybe the real Waingrove is looking at the screen like, yo, they put me in the movie! He's having to change his name now, because everyone thinks he's a dick. Waingrove watching this and just having headwig and the angry inch moment, he'd be like, wow, oh my god, I'm in the movie. T- The real one did die, like, well, he did die. M- Mm, mm, mm. T- He said that in a way that made it sound like you killed him, Mark.

M- Oh no, I was there, I saw. T- I mean, spoilers. M- Yeah. T- A historian of violence that committed personally. T- I keep, spoilers. Historia to violence that I've committed personally. I keep doing that. Yeah, Historia to applied violence. But no, so, what happens then is we get Pacino in, as this cop, to explain to you again how all of the cool stuff you just saw was cool.

Right? Yeah. Pacino rolls up at the crime scene, he's like, damn these guys are good, I want a hard target search of every outback steakhouse, henhouse, cat house, hard house, straw house, piggy house, everything. Yeah. ALICE There's a very particular cop way of talking that is very affected, but that absolutely lights up my brain, I really like it.

And so, the fact that this movie is like, almost three hours long, is largely because every scene of them doing something cool you have Pacino coming in to say, damn, they're cool. But the thing that he pulls out that they know what they're doing is not just the, like, spikes driven response time and all of this, but that, and I think this is one of the hardest lines in the movie, just because of that way of having written it, and his delivery, which is always insane, we'll get to that, is when they kill the first guard, they know they're all going to prison for, like, you know, on, sort of like, felony murder, collectively, so they just kill all the others because why leave a living witness?

And as he says, at the drop of a hat, these guys will rock and roll. S- Mmhm. It's your trailer line. Hell yeah. And we see that it's true, because Wayne Grow having thus fucked it up for them slightly. ALICE Mr. Wayne Grow, it's time for your performance meeting. S- Yeah.

With this gun. Z- Please, please touch this metal plate. This crew does not tolerate failure. He's at the everyone's mad at you meeting at the steakhouse and he's still housing apple pie. Like he does not care. Yeah. Yeah. And very America scene. Even like when they start that scene, it's a shot through a window with Wenger, you know, this bit of pie. And a little America flag in the front.

It's like my notes at this point say, America. Yeah. This is where it is, yeah. Murder and pie. If I was about to get killed by a criminal gang, I would eat apple pie, because I'm like, fuck it, they've got gyms in heaven. That's facts. But so, yeah, they sort of like, De Niro comes in and bonks his head off the table and the window, and then Tom

Seisman has to intimidate the guy. Which is very cool. And then they take him outside and they're going to execute him, right? RIght? They're fully gonna kill him, yeah. We see Danny Trejo open his car's boot and it's all plastic-bagged. It's over for you, brother. Have they done this before?

Which fair enough,! You know? ALICE At which point a couple of, like, a passing squad car just kind of stops at the intersection, and they have to wait, and De Niro loses object permanence for a second. He's just like, what was I doing? RILEY Wing Group disappears with the power of editing. ALICE I don't even know what I came in here for. It's kind of his only real lapse in professionalism, but it's a plot necessity, so they let it slide.

And Wayne Grewt disappears, they can't find him. Val Kilmer goes home and we get a fucking incredibly acted scene, where he goes home to his wife, we establish that he's gotten gambling debts, so yes, they've just made a whole bunch of money, but also in a greater sense they haven't made any money at all. And they have this fight which is probably only like seven or eight lines long, but the way both these actors just hit the beat changes are just like, everything's great, we're in the money! Or everything's not actually that great actually.

Well actually fuck you, just bam bam bam! And it just really escalates until Val Kilmer just like trashes the place and leaves. His wife calls him a child growing older. Which... Mmm. It's almost as, like, it's as explosive as the heist itself, just that sort of rapid kind of thing. Although before this we do have the little bit of Michael Mann's sort of self-entertainment.

Yeah, the painting bit. Yeah, the Alex Colville painting. Yeah, Neil goes home to his home which is like, uh, sort of like, floor to ceiling glass windows overlooking the Pacific. This is an empty house as well. This is evoking a painting by Alex Colville called Pacific, which is, like, a great little evocative piece of Californian crime art. MW- Although weirdly inverted in that Colville's painting is warmer, you can see the sea, but in Neil's place there's a fence that blocks it, but you can hear the sea.

AL- And it's dark! MW- Yeah, it's all blue tones, again, in Man, but in Colville you get this nice brown table, browning high power, and all this kind of stuff. But he keeps the same posture and the same kind of composition. It's a, yeah, but again, if you blink you miss it. ALICE It's a kind of like, it's darker and emptier now than it was in the imagination of your 60s crime fiction. RILEY So then Robert De Niro goes to a bookstore, he's researching something, he goes to a restaurant,

he's sitting next to a beautiful lady, and she hits on him! She asks him, what did you get from the bookstore, and he has this kind of curiously duff line that sticks in my head from the script, where he just says, Book about medals. And she thinks, I can't not fuck him. Absolutely, yeah, I know I get it. This weird evasive guy who's like, I wrote a book about medals, is just like, oh my god. Yeah.

But she hits on him, which I quite like. And he sort of shuts her down quite aggressively, and she's like, okay, sorry, and then he feels bad about it, and then kind of makes up... Yeah, because he's like, what are you doing asking all these questions about me? You know? He's just saying stuff by the way. Yeah. He's like, oh, sorry, I just wanted to suck your dick or whatever.

And he's like, oh, no, sorry, in that case, like, I'm a metal salesman, uh, legal, I don't do crimes, I'm actually a cop, uh, whatever. Yeah. He like claims to be a salesman, uh, who is just like, you know, he works in metals, that's why he's reading about stress fractures in titanium. And she takes him home, right? To her place. LWX He says, oh, someday I'm gonna retire to Fiji, after I've done cellulose metals. ALICE Yeah, and I'm just like, oooooh buddy. LWX I think you are.

ALICE He does kind of ask her about her happily- LWX We're all going to Fiji! Well, he asks her a lot of questions. To Fiji! And thinking about it, you know, in retrospect, sort of, I mean, you know, it's a bit of his, probably his, you know, self-preservation kind of thing. He's going to make sure this, you know, she isn't a cop, that there's something weird going on. But then also it fits with the men never ask questions.

You know, so it's like, show interest, this kind of thing. It's like, okay, I can see actually how this could have worked out. Yeah. I was like, oh, he's interested in me, like asking questions and letting me answer them as opposed to monologuing. Yeah. Yeah, no. So, yeah.

He takes it a little too far. He does just sort of just ask her questions the whole time. Yeah, it is a bit. Yeah. It's a more like an interrogation. There's definitely a middle ground to be hidden there, I think. And of course he doesn't give anything back, because she asks him, like, you know, who are your people, do you have family, and like, one of...

Obviously he has no one, right, and he denies being lonely, but he concedes that he is alone. I think the saddest line in this is where he says, I had a brother somewhere, like, no knowledge, you know, not important. It's this kind of very empty, very meticulously planned life. RILEY We get another badly coordinated kiss where he just eats our whole face. ALICE Yeah, yeah. RILEY It's like, RAAAGH!

RILEY There's no other doing. ZACH I was distracted by the blue-screened LA lightscape in the background. She did say that the place had a great view, but also didn't mention that it looks like it's 3,000 square feet too, and it's on a mountain. But, I dunno. I mean, it's a weird place. So meanwhile, Vincent Al Pacino is shaking down his informants, And this is the bulk of the middle part of the movie, is some poor actor who has been

drafted in to sit against, unrehearsed, against a manic Al Pacino. AL PACINO. Yeah. unrehearsed? Who is just willing to scream at you. Yes. A lot of this stuff was spontaneous, there's a line later that we'll get to. Yes.

Yeah. He plays Coke Guy so fucking well. He does, yeah. Because apparently there were cut scenes, or at least there were scenes written in the script, which explained that Vincent did have a bit of a problem that way. They just never shot them. But also, apparently Piccino decided to play it like that was still in the script anyway. It makes sense for him.

I really liked it. Oh yeah, it fits with the character. Yeah. Cause I wasn't, I didn't pick up on cocaine not knowing much about it. I didn't get that sort of vibes. I just got the vibes that like, he's only happy and excited when he's doing cop shit. Also true. When he's with his family, he's just like, this sucks.

There's a bit later on where he like, he gets the call to go and see some sort of horrible charisma murder scene. He like dances down the stairs. He's like, yes, I get's a bit later on where he gets the call to go and see some sort of horrible Chris the Murder Scene, and he like, dances down the stairs, he's like YES I GET TO CALL TO DETECTIVE SHIT! ALICE Yeah, because when he's at home, he's always watching this tiny shitty little mini TV. Like, this guy would be a poster now, right? Like, he's locked into the fucking adverse conditions movie club, he's watching shit on like a two inch square screen. RILEY God, he would be so online.

ALICE- Yeah, no, absolutely. But when he's like shaking down an informant, he goes on these wild mood swings, until as he says... D- Everything was yesterday, today, you're wasting my motherfuckin' time. ALICE- And screams at him on the way out, not to waste his time. D- Waste my motherfuckin' time! ALICE- Don't waste my motherfuckinucking time! MOTHERFUCKING TIME! It's great.

ALICE It's really good acting. DENIRO Meanwhile, Deniro is preparing for a new score. Because there's like, oh, there's a bank that's gonna be full of cash on this particular day, we could take it. ALICE There's a guy in a wheelchair who plans this one, GTA 5 did not invent anything! DENIRO Yes. LIAM Yeah, that's, um, the actor is in my notes, my notes, but I can't, I'm not gonna find it,

but he played the killer in Manhunter. Oh shit. Yeah. And Ted Levine. Is it Ted Levine? Could be. Anyway, the, one of the cops. I'm looking at Rockstar Games and I'm saying, Michael Mann, take these people's lives, please.

Yeah. But, so the plan is, we're gonna do, we're gonna rob some platinum from a precious metals depository, after that we're gonna hit this bank for $12.2 million, and then we're out, we're done. And we've got enough, we're all gonna retire. Meanwhile, John Voight is talking to Peter van Zandt. Yeah, Peter van Zandt, played by... William Fichtner! William Fichtner, baby!

Guy I love. You see? Playing a kind of horrible headset yuppie, right, who makes the business decision, wrongly, instantly, to be like, oh okay, they think it's okay to steal from me. So he strings them along, and it's like, yeah, I'll send somebody over with the money, hangs up the phone, and just like, kill him. Like... Yeah, turns to a guy, but I'm calling wide Colin Farrell.

And he's like, just kill him. It's Henry Rollins. Yeah, I mean, his oaf, right, he goes to his oaf and he's like, kill him. Yeah, that actually is Henry Rollins. We get a scene between De Niro and Val Kilmer where De Niro explains his philosophy of crime, monk. Yes, I have the drop, I have this as a drop, right, because Val Kilmer's gone kicked out of the house, he's sleeping in De Niro's empty

apartment on the floor when he comes in and finds him. RILEY Series of beautiful shots, not worth describing but just incredible. ALICE And he asks him, when are you gonna get some furniture, and when are you gonna get a woman, to which De Niro's like, I'll get around to it. And then he tells him that, he says the name of the movie... "-These two things are equated." Yeah, well, quite. "-Wanna be making moves on the street, have no attachments, allow nothing to be in your life,

that you cannot walk out on in 30 seconds flat if you spot the heat around the corner." And Chris Valcuima says that he can't treat his wife that way, right? He loves her, he can't just like... I love it. I love this. He can't be the crime monk, you know? Yeah. Robert De Niro is a kind of crimes Jedi. Yeah, he listens to De Niro's statement and he just thinks for a couple of seconds and

he goes like, nah man, for me the sun rises and sets with her. I get it. I get it. Being a wife guy and a heist guy is like, it's hard, alright? Yeah. But to Neil's credit, he doesn't argue with him about it, it's just he lets it go. Yeah. That's the sort of thing we're setting up here.

The marriage is, like, the relationship isn't working, sure, but they do authentically like each other. I don't like the way Robert Zaniera responds to this, which is by going to Val Kilmer's wife and shouting at her, smashing up a house and threatening her. ALICE Yeah. Yeah. But he's treating this as a kind of, like...

RILEY Exactly. Like, this is now just something to consider. ALICE Robbery personnel management thing? To be like, he sees, because he asks him, like, are you cheating on her, or is she cheating on you? And he's like, interesting double standard, where Val Kilmer's like, no, she's not cheating on me, I'm not cheating on her, or is she cheating on you?' And he's like, interesting double standard, where Val Kilmer's like, no, she's not cheating on me, I'm not cheating on her, regularly. But Hank Azaria from The Simpsons is leaving the hotel room, where he has been cucking

Val Kilmer, and De Niro creeps in after him, and shouts at Valcon's wife, as like, you gotta give him one more chance, this is the way it's gonna be. RILEY You're so right, but he is treating it as a personnel management thing now. He's like, alright, in order to keep Chris going, he needs to have wife, so I gotta go yell at wife to stay with him. That's smart. ALICE It's purely functional, and that's kind of

what's so chilling about it as well. It's, there's bits of like, The Godfather, part two, that are like this as well, where Michael is like, sort of colder and less emotional, you know? Also, new guy we love to see drops at this moment. DENIS Yes, Dennis Haysbord! ALICE Dennis Haysbord! I watched four seasons of a terrible show called The Unit, largely for this man. I will follow him into TV hell!

ALICE I saw him live off-Broadway in Race as a teenager, and that play was part of why I went to drama school. ALICE Incredible actor, incredible. So he is this, like, ex-con, he's on parole, and his parole officer has gotten him this job as like... RILEY He's so good. Sorry, I just realized you were talking about... ALICE Yeah, no.

Ostensibly like a line cook, like a short order cook. In practice though, he has a racist piece of shit boss who takes part of his paycheck, and explicitly racially threatens him with violating his parole. Yeah. And all this just takes a couple minutes, so you just bang bang bang. There's this guy... The guy doesn't even look up at him.

Hey, there's two new people, hey look she's got a cool car, now they're at a restaurant and this boss is an asshole. Moving on. Yeah, so we set up this guy, and that's it. PETE For like forty minutes in. And we get two characters we have to remember to. RILEY And then we just don't touch him for like half the movie.

We're like, this guy's over here, alright, next. PETE Yeah, just keep that in mind. RILEY Yeah, keep him in mind. ALICE Pacino, like, his lead pays off, right, because he goes to this club, he intimidates a guy, there's this weird transactional informant relationship where the informant wants him to take down some of his competition in car theft, this is beneath De Niro's notice, he doesn't care, until he mentions, yeah, there was this guy, Tom Sizemore, who got out of jail and was very keen to tell me he wasn't doing anything, and therefore he must have something on.

And by the way, this guy calls everybody slick. Which one of the witnesses overheard at the crime scene, and so Pacino's like, he's on these guys now. RILEY He's like, oh. RILEY Pacino does routinely threaten every black person he comes across. RILEY Everyone, yeah. ALICE He, like, gets this guy around the neck and is threatening him, but he gets the information

out of him. And then he orders this surveillance, right, and I wanna contrast this with the kind of born identity get me some eyeballs on the street thing, for just the maximalism of this. I have a drop, it's quite a long one, but like... "-Tell SIS I want full surveillance. That's 24 hours, round the clock, day and night, we never close open seven days a week. But the car, the house, the work, when he moves or sits, like in a restaurant, I want pictures of who he moves and sits with, then you guys run, makes on them, they got jackets,

I wanna see who they move and they sit with, I want it up and running by tomorrow night." ALICE It's just, it's layered so beautifully, and there's so much there, in terms of use of language to create characters, it's gorgeous! And you can hear that to the kind of functional kicking the can down the road of, yeah, follow this guy. Or whatever. Yeah.

I mean, even some of the lingo, they don't even bother spelling it out. Well, they never spell it out. Yeah, yeah, no, I love that. But the bit about the jackets being the slang for criminal records. Yeah. You know, that Mike's got a jacket, two inches thick. But you know, you you figure you intuit what that means without having to explain it or even slow it down. It's just now the audience will catch up. I mean, he's not treating you like exactly like children, at least in this

section of the movie. There's so much is that we're here. The audience follows that. like, exactly like children, at least in this section of the movie. ALICE There's so much of that where he trusts the audience to follow stuff. SONIA It's nice too, that there's a philosophy around screenwriting these days, which is that fewer words is better, it should be short short short, mainly because the people who summarize it in order to pass it on to the people who decide whether or not to buy it, have short attention spans and not a lot of time. ALICE Because everyone's all on their damn phones. SONIA No, it's actually because most of them have

been fired. And so, all of Hollywood is now like, five assistants. RILEY Yeah, no, there's about ten people working as far as I'm aware. RILEY Yeah, and then like, one person with a billion dollars. And so, there's this philosophy now that scripts have to be very short, and I like that this script is somewhat profligate with its words, because like, more words in that paragraph,

way better than just like, follow these guys. Yeah. It's lyrical. Surveillance. And so, now we get another Wayne Grow, another Wayne Grow moment. Yeah, we get some Wayne Grow moments. He's back, and you better believe he's murdering sex workers. Yes he is.

Murdering teenage sex workers. If we didn't think he was an asshole already, we get the added swastika tattoo. Just to layer that on. ALICE It's like, hey, this guy is a Nazi, right? And- GARTH It's so funny when someone who looks like that finds it necessary to get a swastika tattoo, y'know? It's like, I've got some friends who didn't even bother coming out, cause it's like, look at them.

It's like, you don't need that, man. ALICE Uh huh. You're putting a hat on a hat, for like, being a fascist. RILEY Exactly. It's like, we get it. ALICE But so, yeah. Jarring change of tone. Comedy podcast. Comedy podcast.

RILEY I reckon. ALICE Yeah. RILEY When growing up, we were like, where does this girl... we also established that when Al Pacino goes to the crime scene to attend to this, that he's a serial killer, same MO as the others, there's more... One thing I do want to highlight is that the forensics officer who tells him this information is a woman.

Yes, a white woman. She was also at the bank, at the armored car scene, just warning. They have this rapport, she and Al Pacino, he's like kind of joking with her the first time. And I think there's an interesting tone here, right, which I think is a difficult needle to thread, and doesn't entirely make it, but I think it's doing more than a surface read gives it credit for. Because on the surface what you're doing here is, like, dead sex work done cheaply and brusquely,

right? And I think what this is doing is conveying that this is the way in which the cops treat it. There is this kind of official performance of cheapness and brusqueness where, y'know, they're ticking stuff off, but all the stuff that they're saying is so obviously horrible and traumatic, like, this girl, she's 16, and the medical examiner says this, and she's like, you know, 16, 17, Al Pacino looks under the sheet and says, like, oh, nice.

You know? People at the police cordon crying, and the medical examiner goes, oh, it's the mother and siblings, I guess. And it's like, I think that this is conveying effectively that this is a kind of like, learned barrier that you put up against the horrifyingness of this. Yeah, totally. And Al Pacino's wife picks up on this, because when he goes back to her she's like, you're never with me!

Hold on, we're skipping ahead ever so slightly here. Because there's a bit before this, in this scene, where the mother of the murdered girl ducks under the cordon, and he has to get her in a bear hug. And again, this is the bit where I don't think it quite makes it, I think it's trying to do something that the movie Crash also did worse and less thoughtfully, where it's like, these are the burdens that the cop takes on himself. And at the end of that he does kind of palm her off to some attending women. But I do think it's a good piece of character development for Pacino, where it's like, oh, this guy, there is a heart in there, it is just very very armored, y'know?

STORMTROOPER Although, as far as the film is concerned, you have this weird, you know, we have this serial killer subplot. And as you point out, it's, it's used in this bit to provide a bit of character development, but as far as the film is concerned, we have a serial killer. That's a subplot. The resources of the police and all of our attention is put on these, on this crew that knocks over banks and stuff like this. It's sort of material arm. Yeah. And yet there's this Wayne girl who's killing women through the movie,

presumably. Well, and he does some nasty stuff later. But that's not the focus. That's not what the cops are really interested in. They're never really interested in it. And we don't even wrap it up with it, even though there is a. Absolutely. We know that the serial killer isn't operating anymore by the end of the film.

That's secondary. And there's a callousness to it that's really striking on review. ALICE If the first heist had gone to plan, they wouldn't have killed anyone. LIAM Yeah, they would have just let that guy go. They would have paid him off. ALICE Yeah, it would have been like an armed traffic accident effectively.

But like, yeah, as you say, and this is about action, right? It's maybe, you know, man might deny being a heist film, but it is an action film, right? And consequently, like, Waingrove, having committed this murder, goes to his contact, and he says, again, very lyrically, I am a cowboy looking for anything that is heavy, you know? He is out to do some violence, to do some action. SONIA It just kinda sounds gay. ALICE Yes!

Yes it does, doesn't it. LIAM It really does, yeah. SONIA Hmm. Me too, but not in the way that you are. But anyway, so Al Pacino goes back to his wife, who's just like, oh, I never get to see you anymore because you're super cop, and he's like, you knew when you married me that I'm super cop, stop bitching. ALICE The line is better than that, the line is, you

knew when you got into this, baby, delivered weirdly because it's Pachino, you were gonna have to share me with all the worst people on this planet. The other thing about this is that, like, both Edie, the woman that Robert De Niro has met, and Al Pachino's wife, talk like therapists. This is a thing that, like, women are sort of, like, you know, boxed into in this movie. Even Chris's wife, who is, you know, talking about his gambling wins, talks in this very like, theropized way. And so she kind of suggests to him, well why don't you share the foul things

with me anyway, and he's like, no, they're too foul. And I don't believe in therapy, I don't want to dispel these things, because... Because I need it. You're on mask, he's like, I'll never go to therapy. The action is the juice. I need the angst, because it keeps me sharp, because it keeps me on the edge, because it keeps me sharp, because it keeps me on the edge, because it keeps me motivated. And this is, he's like a closed system, thermodynamically, he's being powered by the fucking trauma.

SONIA Yeah. Meanwhile, De Niro's having a parallel scene with Edie, where he's like, oh, you know, I kinda like you a little bit, why don't you come away to New Zealand with me? Let's go, let's just go. And she's- LIAM Something you could just do in 95. Just absolutely no idea how to express affection at all. I just can't. And she says quite correctly, you don't know me. And he's like, I know all I need to know.

And I'm just like, ah, women. I don't want to say that. Women later on. Women. Weemen. Weemen. He doesn't know what to do. He likes her and he's like not used to liking someone and his own responses. Like what if I just like plucked her out of life and just put her in like a big room somewhere? So I didn't have to think about anything else and I could just be with her instead. And it's like that's not how this works, brother. It's not a relationship, doc. Yeah.

I've just got two or three more big scores that have to work out and then we can just disappear. Yeah. And do whatever it is I do when I don't do this. Yeah. I've just got two or three more big scores that have to work out, and then we can just disappear. Yeah. And do whatever it is I do when I don't do this, yeah. I'm totally not trying to die. It's not a relationship, that's you doing air doll shit. It is! It's like buying furniture, like you say, it's like, it's on the to-do list after a

couple more instances of be the guy that I am, and do the thing that I do. RILEY Be the fucking guy. ALICE Be the fucking guy. Yeah. So, we get another scene with Dennis Haysbert where he's sort of like, he is extremely stressed by this, but he's maintaining. DARREN He comes in, he's like, hello.

I'm still the... RILEY Ah, wonderful. DARREN I will be important later. ALICE Yeah, but we see that he's struggling with this, but that he's trying, right? This is- They are humanizing him, like, the point of it isn't just to remind us that he's there, it is to be like, look at this guy is actively trying, he's trying to get out of this. He's trying to get out!

He's trying to get out in what is ostensibly the right way, for which the right way is like kicking him in the face every time he tries. He's getting endlessly punished for trying to get out of the right way. By this racist piece of shit who has ultimate power over him. RILEY And at this point we have to rob the platinum depository, so Val Kilmer... ALICE No, actually we're gonna... RILEY...can get the package transfer. ZAMP Yeah, we get the drive-in theater.

RILEY Yeah, where they drop off the money, where Zam... ALICE I fully missed this one, it's a bit before this. RILEY Yeah, we skipped it for time. RILEY We probably should. ZAMP Yeah, it's after the Edie and Neil scene. So they're waiting in this meeting location for Van Dant to drop off the money, and we see a pickup truck creep into shot, to which when we watched this my wife said, ooh, sneaky

car. Which is now in my head every time I do this. It was doing sneaky car, yeah. But yeah, so it drives up, and the meet goes wrong, of course, because Van Zandt betrays them, of course, and they have to shoot their way out, kill both of his guys, and the package is full of blank paper, to simulate money. Fucking Robert De Niro gives him a threatening phone call, which takes a couple of goes to get him to tee his line up for him, but he does eventually.

He's on there and he's just like, he's like, what his line up for him, but he does eventually. He's on there and he's just like, he's like, what are you doing right now? And he's like, I'm talking to a fucking empty telephone. He's like, forget the money. And the guy's like, what do you mean forget the money? It's a lot of money. And he's like, I forget the fucking money. I'm talking to an empty telephone.

Because the guy on the other end of it's a fucking dead man and just like hangs up and you see like fans be like, okay, this this is gonna change the shape of my next couple of weeks. I may have misjudged the situation. We cut away from him, and when we get back to him, half a movie later, he's clearly not left the room since. Yes! It's so funny.

Yes. Yeah, he's not shaved, he's got a bed made up on the couch, it's already good. Yeah, we just scare this guy and then forget about him for like half an hour. The two kinds of crime guy are just like, crime guy brackets white collar money shit, and then crime guy brackets beast you to death in a car crash. And it's like, oh shit, oh god. So, now we gotta do this platinum heist. Because the surveillance is up, we see that Pacino and his guys are watching the

place, waiting for them. They've got a SWAT team, back when a SWAT team was a bunch of guys with dad glasses and M16s. For real. It really, really rags us up. RILEY I love that these guys are dipshits. ALICE Yeah, they've got one guy who's like, the bored SWAT guy, who keeps coming up and be like, is anything happening yet?

And I'm just's like no. For a movie that is so gun and that loves gun guys that they had not invented the operator cop yet like it genuinely... Up to this point all the cops are quite competent and then we get yeah we get the guys in the fatigues and all of a sudden you know they're idiots and there's tons of them there's like there's a container of them! There's a container full of them. There's a truck full of them. There's a bunch of them hiding under some garbage near a bin. It's just, they're everywhere. ALICE Yeah, rules.

Yeah, and as they go in to rob the place, the guy, this hot guy, accidentally tries to sit down and bangs on the side of the van, the surveillance van, and spooks De Niro. We get the shot of him in like, thermal vision, in night vision, like, y'know, some kind of predator. It's the exact halfway point of the movie, you get this stare down between Al Pacino and Robert De Niro. Yeah, through the cameras. Yeah, they sort of... Yeah.

Ah. It's so fucking beautiful. And this is the point where Pacino's like, oh okay, I see that we're dealing with a fucking heat situation, like this guy is good as hell. Because immediately, De Niro's like, alright, we gotta go. We gotta go. Like, don't take anything, leave it all there, the best they can get us for is breaking and entering.

Let's just go. They don't say this, crucially, it's Pacino who has to explain the cool thing. To be like, yeah, you can't arrest them, because what are you gonna arrest them for? It's a misdemeanor. Yeah. They'll be out in six months doing this shit right again, I have to get them in the act of actually robbing somewhere. Fuck this.

And there's a great bit of acting where the guy, this what guy who has blown the thing looks at him, like expecting him to do the mega coked up yell that we've seen, and he's so transcendently furious, that he passes through into just not saying anything. RILEY Yeah, no, the cop who beamed it is a very funny presence for the rest of the scene, because he knows it's his fault, but no one else acknowledges it to him. SONIA Yeah, they're too professional to yell at him, which is almost, like, worse.

RILEY You go home and it's like, oh, it was a bad day, it worked, it was fucking bad. Yeah. And De Niro calls a meeting of the gang and is like, we need to assume that they have bugged all of our shit. Like cars, phones. Let's assume that we are now being watched in a heat style situation. Yes. Are we still gonna hit this bank or are we all gonna fuck off and flee?

And Val Kilmer's like, well, we've got gotta continue doing the movie, I've got a gambling debt. Yeah, I've got a lot of gambling debt. Yeah, like, the back off of my career isn't looking so good, I need to be in a few more scenes. It's why it's so good that Val Kilmer looks like shit in this movie. Like, he's kind of gained some weight, the hair's kinda greasy, you buy that this guy has been gambling at like three in the morning, losing all the money he's made by robbing.

SONIA He hasn't got tuberculosis, though, so it's not hot. Like he was in that other film where he got tuberculosis and it was really hot. RILEY We get some diet of alkylmalate, which did remind me. I was like, ooh. SONIA Michael is into... RILEY Yeah, yeah, Michael's into... but like, fucking

Neil has to be like, listen man, alright, I'm not gonna tell you what to do right here, you have to make this decision. You've got a nice wife with Elaine, you can get out. As your illegal advisor, I caution you not to do crimes. And Tom Sizemore, Michael Chivito is like, no, and he gives that line, which is, to me, the action is the juice. It's like, I'm doing it for doing it. And that's not true!

It's fucking bravado! What it is instead is this triangle of obligations, of homosocial obligations, of Michael does it for Neil, and Neil does it for Chris. And they cover this, because that's too emotional to say that shit, they cover it with, you know, I just love robbing people. I love robbing people, I enjoy it. And then it comes to a wide shot, and Danny Trejo's there too, and you're like, oh, he's in the movie.

He's like, I'm here too! A perfect triangle between these men, and then out, and it's like, oh, there's Danny Trejo. He's like the fifth Captain Planet kid, who's like, heart. Because, if you look at someone for whom the action actually is the juice, there's Danny Trejo. He's like the fifth Captain Planet kid who's like, heart. Because, like, if you look at someone for whom the action actually is the juice, that's Wayne Groh. That's Wayne Groh. Wayne Groh is the guy who is motivated by action, but instead it's just this gloss over

it, y'know? Mm. Try to see, 1995, which is the days when Danny Trejo was only like a threatening face, and not an actual actor in his own right. They didn't know they had him. Like a superstar, yeah. Jaian Ruhian occupies that space now. So the cops find Hank Azaria.

And Hank Azaria is then subjected to- Oh god. Now I have a way to describe that, yeah. To Al Pacino saying, like, the line is right, and he delivers this with this incredible, like, bug-eyed expression. Yeah, they catch him, and Hank's like, where the fuck did I get mixed up with that girl? She got a great ass! She got a great ass! You got your head all the way up it!

Just like, so good. Improvised. And from Hank's area, he cuts back and he looks like a guy who's just had that sense of impotence. Yeah. Because he has, you did not see that coming. It was improvised. Vince just had a bump in the car on the way over.

Yeah, it wasn't in his script, so he was hearing it for the first time. It was just like, what? Man, it wasn't in his script, so he was hearing it for the first time. It was just like, what?! Man, it's like perfect shits. Shocked expression on his face, so good. It's really, really funny. Perfect cut. Just put it in the can. He gets coerced into...

Wait a minute! Hang on a second, the legendary story of that line is that it was improvised, and that's Hank Azaria's genuine reaction, but it can't be! It can't be! Because they didn't film this multicam. The camera could not have been on both of them at the same time. That cannot be a recording of Al Pacino saying that for the first time and Hank Azaria saying that for the first time. Well, one of them is probably the first time. Maybe it could be Al Azaria's reaction.

But yeah, we get it. So if Pacino's just like, they don't have the camera on him, and they're not using a body double and he does this line, and then they just record his shot. But then why would you have done Hank Azaria's coverage first? I don't buy it. I don't buy it. Okay, good point. You always do your star coverage first. Maybe this is just part of the myth, because this is a very mythologized film, I should

say. It certainly is, yeah. Well we are right about the Alice Colville painting at least. So we got that. Yeah. Anyway, Al Pacino says, you're fucking Valkyma's wife, and Hank Azera goes, who? And he goes, who? You're a fucking owl?

Come and help with our investigation, you piece of shit! He's like, ah, fine. It's really funny. You are turning states witness. Thank you. Forced into being a zing. You are turning states witness. Thank you. Come with me. My favorite scene in the movie, maybe, is this next bit where, so, Pacino, well, so, De Niro and his crew, like, they drive out into the middle of nowhere, on the waterfront, and they're like, pointing at stuff, and they're like, okay, so that's escape route number

one, that's escape route number two. They leave, Pacino and his guys come down there, and like, what could they possibly have been looking at? What was the point of doing this? You know, because there's nothing here to rob, there's like a refinery that doesn't have any cash on it, and a scrapyard that doesn't have any cash on it, what are they here for? And Pacino has the moment of realization that they are here to counter surveillance you properly, and take photos of all of you with a long

lens, and he just, that's the moment of realization of like, oh you motherfucker, is like, it's beautiful. Yeah, we start to get an inverted procedural, whereas previously it was the cops doing all the procedural, now we have the crew doing the procedural, with Nate being their source. Nate Hanson's file, my favorite detail of this, we find out what hot shit Al Pacino is, but my favorite detail is, three marriages, you think that means he likes staying home? ZACH Yeah, John Voight gives him Al Pacino's file

and it's just like, he's a former Marine, he did cop studies at Harvard and got an A, he's got two dicks, he has a gun in his leg, he's like super cop, I really like this man. ALICE And he does point out that the odds are stacked against him, because as he says, this guy can hit and miss, but you can't miss once. SONIA Yeah, that's crimes for you. ALICE That's crimes, that's the nature of crimes. Meanwhile Al Pacino comes home to dirty dishes and is like, fuck this, I'm gonna go in a

helicopter. Which is also a deal I would take. ALICE Yeah, yeah. LIAM You have the opportunity, I mean, really. ALICE You see partially why he's like, yeah, fuck being a dad, I'm gonna do cop shit. He follows De Niro's car, and he ends up, like... SONIA He loves this shit, the soundtrack is like

BOO-NINININU! Cause Al Pacino's just like, yeah, I hate being Natalie Portman's dad, this is way better! ALICE We have this kind of bit where it's like, initially it's kind of ambiguous whether what he's trying to do is have a chat with the guy or start a gunfight with him, but he pulls him over and he's like, can I take you on a date, can we get a coffee together? I mean, I should say Mann describes this scene as a marriage, so, y'know, just to be absolutely clear with the, like, latency of this.

SONIA They go to this diner, which is an atmospheric choice of location, a diner, but it's also one in which it's very hard to shoot movies in because you have limited spaces in which to put the camera and therefore... ALICE Kinda turns that to his advantage, apparently they did this with three cameras, right? One close and over the shoulder of each actor, and then a profile one, and they never used the profile one, because every time they tried it takes you out of it. RILEY Yeah.

Yeah. SEAN Yeah, it's kind of claustrophobic, and yeah, because it's crowded place, there's lots of people, and the background sound drops during conversation and comes back up to signal the end of it. It is a weird sequence. Drakkina's ex-girlfriend, baby, that's how we do it. It's so intimate, and they obviously can't go or anything, because both of them know that he has to get caught in the act of actually doing the crime

to get him put away, so they're just hanging out. ALICE Both watching each other all the time, just in case one of them goes for the gun. And they kind of see each other properly. And they have this conversation, where it's like, this is all we both know and want to do with our lives. We don't want to be normal, detective is a gender, Robert also a gender, and they're the same gender and they're getting married. RILEY Isn't toxic masculinity great?

ALICE Yeah, absolutely. ZACH They're both willing victims to this, yeah, this kind of malignant toxic masculinity. But of course, the possible sort of repercussions for one are significantly worse. Yeah, yeah, like Vince can kind of I mean, if he could, he could stop whenever he wanted to and live a normal life. Neil can't even though he tells himself he can and tries to. Of course, in the film, Vince never tries to stop. He can be a cop for as long as he wants.

ALICE That's the guy that he is. He's stuck in this loop. Because this is, like, LA in the 90s, there is a bit of them psychoanalyzing each other's dreams, which, okay. ZACH Ah, it's kinda nice. Nice nostalgic bit of writing there. Robert De Niro's like, I'm crime-o-sexual, and Al Pacino's like, I was assigned cop at birth, this is great, we love it.

ALICE And they don't wanna haveino's like, I was assigned cop-up birth, this is great, we love it. ALICE And they don't wanna have this regular type life. One thing I will say is, you can watch on YouTube the LA takedown version of this scene, which is almost the same script, it doesn't have it, right? If you're looking at this scene and you're like, man, how did they make this movie? The answer is, they made it first and it didn't click, and they just kind of kept trying, essentially.

SEAN They also got two actors who really wanted to be in this scene together. Because this is apparently what sold either Pacino or De Niro, or both of them, on being in this movie. Is that they would eventually have this scene together, and it was the first time in their careers they'd ever actually been on camera together. So there's, y'know, the characters kind of love each other, at least it's maybe a little one way, but the actors do too.

And so you get, I mean there's a bit more of a sense of authenticity in this relationship, even though it's sort of weird. Pacino really pulls it back in this scene. Really kind of like lets De Niro have the floor, it's quite good. ALICE Yeah, you can't do the kind of manic thing there, you know? It's very focused and very vigilant, you know? So meanwhile, because they've been busy planning this bank heist and they've forgotten about

Van Zandt, William Fichte, he's just been being psychically tortured by accidents. And so he hires Wayne Grow, who claims that he knows Robert De Niro. RILEY Yeah. We cut back to Van Zandt and he's got bedding on the sofa behind him in his office, like, all the window blinds are closed. This man has been having an awful time. RILEY Rollins has been bringing him takeout all day. Yeah. Mm hmm.

When Pacino gets back from his little crime date with Robert De Niro, the cops are just like 30 minutes ago, all of our bugs were dumped onto a bus to fucking like Mexico. All the surveillance has been slipped. They've all vanished. He's like, no way I was having like a crime date and like sucking Robert De Niro's dick in a diner

bathroom 30 minutes ago. No way they've done that. He's like, they've been sucking Robert De Niro's dick in a diner bathroom thirty minutes ago. No way they'd done that. He's like, they've been fucking playing, they're fucking our cyberpussies! ALICE Yeah, no, they fucked their pussy. Their pussy's bad. It's over. DINERO So I wanna know where these fuckers are! ALICE Yeah, really interesting bit of foreshadowing

and also kind of pre-911 thing where De Niro escapes surveillance by driving into the airport, and the reason why he can do this is because the helicopters can't follow him, because the flight path's, and so he just slips out through the airport. So they go to another diner, yet another heist planning diner, not to do the LA is a character in this movie, right, but they use a lot of shitty bits of LA, or neglected bits of LA that you wouldn't see in a movie, like, it's kind of like, Diner that's not famous for anything, or there's one shot of De Niro

of Pacino, rather, just walking down the street with really weirdly baggy pants in Koreatown. It's just like, you would never film on this corner for anything that you wanted to look glamorous, but it's just grimy and authentic, y'know? STANLEY That's what 90% of LA looks like. Like, I mean, actually, this is another one of the weird things with this film, is that while I didn't grow up in the States, this is what most cities I lived in looked like. Everything is kind of light commercial, industrial, there's a suburb stuck in the middle of it, there's lots and lots of parking lots and car dealerships.

Not a lot of people except, you know, at a gas station or something like that. And if you're at a gas station at three in the morning, none of those people want anything to do with you. So you're sort of again, alone in a crowd. It's a sort of urban desert of, you know, alienation. It's again, yeah, yeah, yeah. Atomization. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

It's profoundly... Yeah. Yeah. And it's also something we don't really see these days, because as you were telling us before we started recording, Mark, this film was mainly shot on location, wasn't it? Yeah. There's no sets, no sound stages. Which you would never do now, because it's insanely fucking expensive to do.

Yeah. But it gives you that weird, there's this sort of lived-in feeling to it. I mean, there are some interiors, particularly like McCauley's home, where this is very Michael Mann interior. You know, he loves these sort of very modernist, minimalist places. But then again, a lot of the exteriors are minimalist too, because of that industrial aspect. You know, the metals, the precious metals heist scene, it's in a nondescript warehouse area, it looks like

everything else. It's in harsh sort of contrasts, there's nothing comfortable or particularly human other than the fact that it's built on a human scale. But this isn't for people, it's for stuff. ALICE It's a striated terrain. It's a... yeah. But so, we're in this diner, which is another one of those, and Dennis Haysbord is working the grill, he's made it up to grill, and is obviously still under the yoke here, of this manager.

Who won't let him take his break. And Danny Trejo can't make it to the movie. Danny Trejo calls in sick to the movie. RILEY Yeah. RI. That's fair enough. He's like, the cops are on me, in fact, because they never miss an opportunity for a line, they're on me like a cheap suit, which I like. I do like that, yeah. Yeah, the menswear guy is commenting on these cops.

Yeah, he gets to speak, they let him speak in the movie, nice. Thank god for that. Yeah. Robert De Niro's just like, Danny Trejo's not coming back until later. His character's name is Trejo as well, which is really funny, but they just don't acknowledge him the whole time, and then they're just like, and Trejo's not gonna be able to make it, and I'm like, oh, is he just like, was that just him? But at this point Robert De Niro's like, damn it, we need a getaway driver.

Dennis Haysbert, do you want to be in the movie? Do you want to be in the movie now? Like, right now. ALICE Like, you need to answer me, do you want to keep working for your racist boss for the rest of the time when you're on parole, and live a normal type life, or do you want to get into some shit with me? And of course he does. RILEY He thinks about it for like, a while, though, and I really appreciate it, but it doesn't

cut away and it doesn't skip or anything, it holds the shot for ages, what he thinks, and he's like, yeah, go on then, fuck it. We've seen him talking with his girlfriend, and she's told him that she's proud of him, and he laughs at that because he's like, what do you have to be proud of me for? Without that, instead of that, you just get this kind of irresistible pull back in, and it's like, oh, these are really wounded, damaged people who can't make these connections, even if they try to, you know? Imperfect connection. ALICE The dudes don't rock. RILEY Perfect choice.

ALICE Dudes rock and roll at the drop of a hat, and this is the problem. RILEY Yeah, yeah. He's like, yeah sure, fuck my boss, and then it throws him to the floor, and then it's like heist time. ALICE It's not even particularly violent, like, he doesn't punch the guy out, he moves him aside. RILEY Sort of like pushes him over. RILEY Yeah, no, it's really nice.

You would expect, if you're familiar with the beats of this, that he would fucking hurt his boss badly in some way before he leaves, but he really doesn't, he just sort of pushes him because he's in the way, and it just walks out. It's like, contempt, he's reduced to an obstacle, and it's like, okay, doesn't matter, you know? Love it. Because that kind of humiliation is beneath you now that you're back in the realm of the crimes doer. TURNBULL Which we go straight into.

We go straight into... It's time to do some crimes, baby. The bank heist. Here we go. This is the heist from Heist Season. I'm genuinely aware of a podcast, I haven't listened to it so I can't vouch for whether or not it's good, but it's a conceptually interesting podcast called One Heat Minute, where every episode is one minute of this film.

And I looked this up, and I haven't listened to it, so like I say, but I looked this up and they were doing One Hour 46, part two. And I see how they got to that, you know? RILEY You really can analyze the hell out of this. ALICE Yes. It's a rich text. to that, you know? You really can analyze the hell out of this. Yes. It's a rich text. God, that's crazy.

Yeah, I mean, this, and this heist sequence itself has been the subject of innumerable, sometimes well-informed, sometimes just repetitive... If you've played Payday the Heist. I know, yeah. I mean, it's... Yeah, sorry. There's a lot to say, but I don't know how much of it we need to say, so... We need to gin up some sort of measurement for heists, I think.

Oh, like a scum system for heists. Like a micro-scum system just for the actual heist itself. I'll explain this as I go. Well this is fucking sick. How many mags should be dumped in actual heist itself. I'll explain this as I go. RILEY Well this is fuckin' sick. LIAM How many mags should be dumped in this heist sequence? Yeah, I dunno. I don't know what your measure would be. RILEY If we're really trying we can make this the

most ill-informed and most repetitive discussion of this season possible. ALICE I mean, I think the thing is, this is canonical, right? This is THE bank robbery from which all others are filmed. RILEY Absolutely. ALICE And part of that is the soundtrack, which is just this, like, sort of driving beat, like, tss tss tss tss tss. I have no sense of rhythm, as you can tell.

It's like, it's really fucked up, it's like all over the place. It's just somebody doing that into a microphone, yeah. It's close enough, it's fine. Yeah, it's me doing that. Yeah, like, yeah, it's like, guy hitting a cymbal. It's one of those monkeys with two cymbals banging together. Yeah, brush. They walk into the bank in suits, they put on hockey masks, Corbus and Iroh has that

like, yeah. The speech that I have from memory and that I'm bouncing up and down in my seat remembering, I have the whole thing as a drop, I apologize, but it is important, because he mounts the desk, he gets on top of the divider, and yells this pre-practice line, which is your head. Anybody feel sick? Anybody got heart trouble? Go ahead and lean against the wall. ALICE I mean, I'll be honest, if I'm in that situation... NIGEL Yeah, I'm not doing shit. I'm sitting down. Fair enough. Okay, cool. Oh, not my money? Okay. ALICE It's an interesting point you make.

NIGEL I'm gonna ask if they need another person. I can shoot? Do you guys want someone else? NIGEL Are you guys looking to recruit someone right now? ALICE I'm coming down with instant Stockholm syndrome? NIGEL Yeah. They got vests on under their jackets, they're covered in mags, they've got these big duffel bags. There have been so many attempts to imitate those rigs, those vests, you can... any number of tactical guys will sell you some kind of recreation of these.

Because it is cool, right, and it's theatrical, right, it's the same thing as John Dillinger back in the day. It's something that, like, it's interesting as well, because it powers through this atomization, right, it's interesting, one of the ways in which they planned the diamond heist, De Niro's like, do you do this on the prowl, or strong, and the guy says strong through the front door. They do this strong and through the front door. And it's in this completely sterile, grey and silver, corporate environment.

And what you are doing is you are imposing something very forceful and very alien to a completely glossed over, smooth, corporate atomized thing. You become the protagonist in that moment because you're a person, you're the guy with the gun, and it's a whole new sense of identity that you, you know, you just kind of, like, put on the Balak Lov and that becomes the person, you know? The guy, Neil McCauley or whatever, is the disguise, it's a sort of facile observation that you make a lot, but like, this is the guy, this is the guy, he's that guy at this moment. RILEY Did you just do a Heideggerian technoanalysis

on this podcast about com? ALICE Yes! RILEY Yeah, roundabout. RILEY Hell yeah! RILEY Yeah, we're the greatest podcast ever. ALICE I mean, listen, it's a struggle for identity in which he attempts mastery over a sort of subject in a Hegelian sense. RILEY Well, from a violence scholarship perspective, this is about performative, sort of aspirational kind of violence, that you're using this as

a way of, in this brief period in which you exercise coercive force, you become the most significant thing at that point. So you become briefly the center of the universe, and you're in complete control of it, you become the most significant thing at that point. So you become, you know, briefly the center of the universe and you're in complete control of it because you have that access to violence. Once you lose that access, of course, it goes back to being just some schmo. And so you continue to pursue these sorts of opportunities in order to experience that high. And of course the, the, the sort of the high test kind of energy of this

scene is very authentic in that high. And of course the sort of the high test kind of energy of this scene is very authentic in that respect. There's other bits which slide a little bit, but that one, it's something they don't often get quite right because the way you think of people shouting and being coercive like that, you think of them being angry or not in control when in fact, it is a very measured exercise of this opportunity. So yeah, so I mean, it all fits. If you wanna go... I'm really selling me on the concept of violence here, Mark.

Making a note here, being more violent. Sounds like fun. What a thrill. This podcast is sponsored by violence. Part of the point of movies, to me, is a kind of like, empathy generator, right? You can get the sense of like, this is what it might feel like to be like this, and so to have the kind of vicarious thing of like, this is what it might feel like to rob a bank,

that's what the fantasy is, you know? And it's... SEAN Yeah, I mean, this is Thomas De Quincey kind of criticism of, you know, when he did an essay on knocking on the door in Macbeth, you know, this brief moment where you, you, you feel a sense of, of, uh, sympathy for the murderers that they're not going to get caught. And then you catch yourself and say, what the hell am I doing? Why, why am I feeling sympathy for these people who've just murdered somebody?

It's because you've, you know, you've been brought in to connect with them while they're doing this, and then you share their sense of stress, of fear of being caught, and then you're pulled back out because you're not in it. You're not with these people. But that's the magic of this art. And they get made on the way out of the crank. Yeah.

If they've gotten away with it, like, you get a bank manager who gets punched in the face, everybody gets traumatized, but like... RILEY This is sort of your ideal, right? It's well practiced, they go in, they're like, alright, first of all, none of the money that's being taken right now is yours, you don't have any stake in this, just sit down, like this is the bank's money, they get all that shit, they leave, no problem, like this has all gone extremely well for them. So at this point, yeah, the audience wants them to get away with this one.

We see them get close, they're within touching distance of the car, you see Val Kilmer smile. There's 70 pound backpacks of cash. Yeah, Val Kilmer's the right one to pull out because he does not fucking hesitate. At the drop of a hat he rocks and rolls. Briefly, Al Pacino and the cops are coming, they're getting around these guys. Because they've been given a tip off from someone, we don't know who yet. A bus moves and it lets Val Kilmer for just like a second see some of the cops with guns out, and he just opens fire immediately.

No hesitation whatsoever. ALICE This gun... Okay, so the North Hollywood Shootout brackets fiction in shoes. This was a real thing, which was like... RIght? ALICE Yeah, there was a genuine thing by a group of bank robbers to out-fight... RIght, they did this, for real. Basically.

That was in 97. Yeah, 91 I think this was. A couple of guys with homemade body armor and assault rifles tried to out-fight the LAPD in the streets. Holy shit. Wow. Yeah, that was the 97 one, that was after this. Oh my god.

God, okay. There's the NorCal shootout, which has been suggested as an inspiration for this, or the 86 Miami shootout, but that one's really not quite as more, just that it's bang. Robbers. This is also GTA IV and Red Dead Redemption 2. True, yes. Rockstar fucking... But so, this is, the sort of fascination of this is, I think this film understands violence

as an expression of will, right, it's one of the reasons why it has this kind of thing with women, it's why, you know, sort of like, when De Niro's like, managing Val Kilmer's wife it's like, that is because he has like, has a kind of superior will to hers. Is that the cops, there's an interview with Michael Mann where he says the cops always go in expecting to have overwhelming force, and when they're met with equal or greater force than that, they don't do well. ALICE Yeah, they cry. ALICE Yeah.

They get killed. ALICE You're bullying me! Yeah. ALICE And this is kind of prefigures a change in American policing, this is before the era of, like, the militarized cop, exactly. We had SWAT teams, but this is before the patrol carbine, so all these guys had shotguns in the car, maybe. And they're just kind of walking around not wearing body armor with, like, a pistol, and these guys with, y'know, like a sort of

short automatic weapon. LIAM Yeah, these M4 Commandos. Cut down guys. In full auto. ALICE Run straight through them! And it's sort of like, it's not shot with any particular horror of this, but you do see the horror of it anyways, you see the aftermath of these cop cars getting torn up and guys getting shot and having to pull each

other behind cover. SONIA It's really well shot, we get this kind of handheld running and gunning, hiding behind chest high walls shit. The end result of which is... ALICE Bounding Overwatch! The way they move! Let me on the fucking Heat Minute podcast and I will spend an hour and a half talking about the way Val Kilmer reloads!

RILEY Yeah, Val Kilmer, hi, how you doin'? ZACH Yeah, there's the oft-repeated story about how Boreen recruits would be shown this clip of Val Kilmer doing a quick reload, and say you know, if you guys can't do it like this, then you guys are idiots. And it's funny because, I mean, you watch it and it looks really simple, but he does do a very quick reload. He drops some ag, he pulls one out of the vest, he pops it in, he hits the bolt release and he keeps shooting. And he's shooting ahead of himself and behind. So the camera is sort of, he lifts the rifle up over,

you know, to clear the camera and fire some more. And this is all onset sound too. They didn't do additional sound. Yeah, the noise of this is incredible. And it's, and that's actually, it's, you won't find a shootout that sounds like this. Again, because nobody really likes to do sounds like this. It's hard to do it. And also generally people are thinking that you don't want this kind of sound because it is so loud.

It is so intense. The echoes go on forever because it's bouncing around all these buildings. It's like, no, I do. I like this. Yeah, it's like, no, I... Because it's overwhelming both, you know, you get all this muzzle flash, you get all this brass flying into the camera. You get all of this, you know, the cuts and stuff. And then you get all of this sound and you again, is there a soundtrack? I don't know at this point. I don't care. Yeah. I'm partly deafened by all of this shooting, which is exactly what was happening to the people in, you know, what would have been happening in SEA. It's very immersive, yeah. Yeah, and that's exactly immersive. It pulls you in and keeps you kind of stuck into it until they stop shooting. Yeah, Dennis Hayswood is killed senselessly, which is a predictable thing to do with your

black character, but it also makes sense with his story arc here, of like, you sort of get out of this process of getting out that is humiliating, and you get back into the action, you see no action, you are killed instantly, with like, you die scared for next to no reason. SONIA Yeah. Val Kilmer gets hit, and Robert De Niro has to drag him up and get away. Michael briefly takes a child hostage. ALICE Tom Sizemore, he's a bad bad man. SONIA He is. And Al Pacino headshots him and get away. Michael briefly takes a child hostage. ALICE Tom Sizemore, he's a bad bad man. RILEY He is. And Al Pacino headshots him and kills

him. ZACH He's carrying a galil now, so now you know. ALICE Yeah. He's wielding his Israeli assault rifle and hiding behind a child. ZACH If he'd stayed with the FN, he would've survived, but now he had to switch to the galil, got separated. ALICE No one he uses as a foul could be a bad man. RILEY His wife sees this on the news, and so does You had to switch to the Galeel, you got separated. ALICE No one uses a foul could be a bad man. Um, but yeah, so he, um, yeah.

RILEY His wife sees this on the news, and so does Dennis Haysbert's girlfriend, and they are upset. ALICE Yeah, and you're just like, this is the human wreckage of this. It's interesting as well that, like, we don't get this for any of the dead cops, cause we're like, fuck cops. But like, they're just doing their job. These guys, these guys are inhabiting a kind of, like, conscious...

They're being the guy! RIght now, alright? Yeah, yeah. You're just at work. These guys are being the guy. If you're a certain kind of cop, like Al Pacino, you can be the guy, but most of these guys aren't the guy yet. You have to promote into being the guy.

Absolutely. Yeah, they kill the guy who played, uh, Buffalo Bill in Silence of the Lambs, he's the cop who gets killed. Oh no! Oh no! Yeah. What, no. Oh, no. Yeah. What a shame. There he goes.

Goodbye. Tom Sizemore. The doctor that pulls the bullet out of Val Kilmer is Jeremy Piven, who we saw in Spy Kids 4. Oh, shit. Yes, it is. It is. That's Jeremy Piven.

One scene. What a world. There he is. Yeah. Gives De Niro his shirt. Yeah. It's a morphine for Val. Robert De Niro his shirt, some morphine. Robert De Niro's like, somebody ratted Val Kilmer's like, who ratted? He's like, who wasn't there?

Yeah. This is Danny fucking Trejo. That's fucking Danny Trejo. Get to his house. Yeah. Also from Spy Kids. So he goes to Danny Trejo from Spy Kids' place, to find that Danny Trejo, his girlfriend has been killed, he has been tortured to near

death for information. He's been machete'd. They machete'd the fucker. He's been Waingrode. Yeah, he's been Waingrode! He's had his Waingro moment. Yes. And with his dying breath, he's just like, Waingrode did this on behalf of Van Zandt.

And then De Niro Mercy kills him. Yeah, he's like, don't leave me like this. Now, we've established the code that D'Nero's trying to live by, which is no attachments, nothing you can't walk out on. Right? And he is gonna break that code several times, but the first and most prominent time is for revenge, right? He goes to Van Zant's, he like, you know, gets his address from there, he goes to Van Zantz, and he tries to find out where Waingrow is, he doesn't know, he kills Van Zantz.

RIght. I love this exchange, he's like, where's Waingrow?! And William Fink is like, how the fuck should I know?! And he just shoots him. He's like, alright, fine. Yeah, five point! Shhh! He should've stayed in his office.

Yeah, he should've. Yeah, he thought after the bank heist that he was probably fine, so he goes back to his home and he's like, oh, dammit. I got it. I got a ruptuneiro creeping around my house. Yeah. Also, we see that they pick up Val Kilmer's wife, and have her in a safe house, and one of the cops, Sergeant Drucker, does this great bit of, like, he does good cop,

bad cop, and he's both. First of all, he keeps telling Hank Azaria to shut the fuck up, which is very funny. But second of all, he's like, you wanna get out, right? Well, getting out requires you to betray your husband. And if you don't, your kid, your son, is gonna end up like him. He is gonna get as fucked up as all of these guys are, because he's gonna be institutionalized and go to prison. SONIA Yeah, go to foster care, steal a car, go

to prison, and that'll be it for him. So you gotta betray him. LIAM Can he get that weird bump on his elbow? It's gonna be creepy. Describes the kind of youth, young offenders institutions as gladiator factories. Which is a fascinating choice of word. Yeah. Meanwhile, Al Pacino figures out that Robert De Niro's probably gonna wanna kill Wayne Grow.

So, put Wayne Grow up in a nice hotel, and then put the word out on the street, tell everyone where he is, watch the hotel, am I gonna try and bait him in? He beats that information out of Henry Rollins. Yeah. Yeah. Him and Westy to go in. More police brutality. Mm-hmm.

De Niro goes to his girl, Edie, and is just like, I'm the crimes guy, come away with me after I've dealt with this. She runs away, and he like forcibly restrains her. Yeah, he kidnaps her. He does that. To be absolutely clear, this is a kidnapping that he's doing. Yes. 100%.

And he does do this thing of like, if you wanna leave, you can just leave. We don't know how seriously to take him on that, but like, his sort of like, demand here is like, or just come with me, but you have to be like, 100% on it. RILEY Yeah, righto, we've met like three times. STORM Desperately trying to maintain control of the situation here as everything is falling apart. And yeah, I feel like he's sort of ad libbing this the whole way as he goes. And calls in to Nate to get a new cover to get out of town, but it's gonna take some

time. But yeah, he still wants to also... ALICE And he asks about Waingrow, and he's like, so speculatively. By the way, Al Pacino has to get divorced at this moment. RILEY Yes, because a woman does something for herself, for the only time in this film. ALICE Although only to, like, fuck with another man, right?

RILEY Yeah, yeah, yeah. ALICE She, uh, like... RILEY another man, right, like, she, uh, like... ZACH Yeah, comes home and his wife is cheating on him. ALICE Yeah, with, like, some guy. ZACH Yeah. ALICE And he says, you can fuck my wife if she wants you to. Holy Amory moment.

But! Do not watch my fucking television. My tiny little TV. ZACH His little cathode ray, little box. Yeah. This is my thing. This is more important to me than this woman is. This is my thing that I use to relieve trauma and to like...

And she says, in, again, this very therapized language, because that's how she's written, that he can't commit to anything, and that's how she's written, that he can't commit to anything, and he's been, as she says, walking through our life dead. And so we mirror this with, sort of, De Niro trying to hold things together with Edie, and he's this almost kind of nihilistic thing. Reminds me a lot of the Bukowski poem, Relentless is the Tarantula, which is one of my favorites. Oh, fuck Bukowski. I know.

Sorry, I put a personal beat for Bukowski. You're not wrong, he's a bad person, but I like the poem and I think it's relevant here. Ah, personal grievances with that poet, but anyway. This cancel culture. It's pretty funny, that personal, yeah. No, not for anything you did as a person, but because I used to date somebody who was an asshole who was a big fan of Bukowski and said, oh, he's the genius, and I was like, oh fuck.

That's reasonable too. But yeah, so, what he says is, I know life is short, and whatever time you get is luck. Right? And that's an interesting kind of concession, he's like the crime Buddha, you know? No attachments, actually no control of things, therefore go to New Zealand or Fiji with me. Yeah, kind of. Y'know. Valkilmer drives by the safe house where his wife is, and she lets herself be seen through

the windows in order to bait him in, but subtly signals to him like, eh eh, don't do it. True love! Ride or die, even as she is divorcing him and getting out and that's the last time they'll see each other, she warns him off because she doesn't want him to get caught. RIght, love this. Love this. He leaves the movie, he gets away, we don't see him again. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Presumably with a duffel bag with four million dollars in the trunk, too.

Yeah, no. He wins because he likes a wife. I mean, he's still like, yelling, and he's still like, abusive, right? Like, this is the most like... And it's a gambling problem, money's probably not gonna last that long, yeah. This is the closest to a positive relationship that this movie portrays. What it is, is the ending of a relationship, and he's shot looking very bloated and unhappy and scared in this very Michael Mann kind of blue.

Yes, yeah. And it's like, no, what has happened to you here is the monk-like existence has just been imposed on you. You have found out the hard way that despite your best efforts, if you want to get away with this, you have to walk out. And you are fortunate, if anything, to be in a position where she has walked out on you. And it's like, the one moment really where, if we look at the way this movie treats gender as a kind of contest of wills, right, it's the we look at the way this movie treats gender as a kind

of contest of wills, right, it's the one time where a woman's will overwhelms a man's, is in this moment, where she makes the decision for him. ALPACHINO has Wayne Grow under surveillance in the hotel. And he's like, Zaniera's not gonna take it. He's not gonna take the bait. He's gonna crime monk mode. He's gonna get away. Meanwhile, my stepdaughters are Natalie Portman's mental health.

I assume great. Oh yeah, I assume, great. SEAN Oh yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Great. No problem. SEAN Remember that subplot. Within a subplot.

ALICE Why is the bathroom floor wet? I'll be honest, I forgot this scene was in the movie. Which kind of speaks to its emotional impact on me, in this movie that's mostly about dudes trying to kill each other. Natalie Portman has attempted suicide in his hotel bath. LW- Because she's sad about her dad. AL- Who has abandoned her. ZM- That and all the other adults around her are wrecks as well.

AL- Every adult in her orbit is miserable. ZM- Yeah, I mean, we get one... I think there's like one nice scene between Vincent and her, but he's in a patrol car, and they stop and give her a ride home on the street. And she addresses the other cop in the car by name too, like she knows these people. ALICE Yeah, it's sweet. But yeah, it's interesting, so when she's brought in to the hospital, the doctor asks when's the last time anyone saw her, and he has to say, I don't know.

It's just like, she's this casualty, this is kind of like, man's diagnosis of society, I guess, in Los Angeles in the 90s, it's just like, yeah, this is so alienated and everyone is so busy with their various bullshit that you can just kind of slip out of existence almost unnoticed. ALICE Yeah. Suicide is a disease of social isolation. ALICE Hmm. And certainly in this analysis.

But her life is saved. You know, he has gotten to her in time. RILEY Don't worry, she's gonna have a very promising career. She's gonna be Biffy Mandetta, she's gonna be a black swan, she's gonna be four, it's gonna be great. ALICE Yeah. Meanwhile, De Niro's driving with Edie to their escape route.

She's like, she's- RILEY Which is LAX. they're gonna get on a plane, they're gonna get away. She's agreed to do it. And then Nate calls back and is like, okay, everything's good to go, I know you won't care, cause you're getting out and you always talk about no attachments, but I did find where Waingrow is. Yeah, I do know where Waingrow is, and he goes, mmmmm... The End of the Graduate is a brilliant example of creating ambiguity by just holding a shot longer than you intend to, right?

And so what it is, is you get this series of shots of them in the car, that are brilliantly acting of him internally, realizing that he is going to do it. Right? That he can't not, that he is gonna betray his code, he's gonna jeopardize his own escape route and his relationship, and he's just gonna doom himself by doing it, but he's gonna do it anyway. He turns the car around and goes after Waingrove. LORRAINE He leaves Edie in the car as he sneaks into

the hotel, does a little bit of a hitman level. ALICE He walks out on her, but not on Waingrove. Like, that's who's more important to him. RILEY Yeah, yeah, exactly. He, like, leaves her and goes into it, and it's like, you gotta know if you're her, you know what's happening here. RILEY Yeah. ALICE Pacino has this moment of self-knowledge with his wife in the hospital.

Where he's like, I don't have an identity except this. RILEY Yeah. I'm Xanagata-mode. ALICE Yeah! Literally! RILEY I'm afraid have an identity except this. Yeah. I'm Xanagata mode. Yeah! Literally! I'm afraid. The action is the juice for me. The action is the juice.

And off he goes, he gets paged, and he gets... This is the moment where he dances down the stairs, he's so excited, he's like, yes! My crime nemesis! Yeah. Don't let her see it, though. Just walk slowly to the stairs, and then sprint. The way I have this written down is, off he goes, fueled by cocaine and trauma, like a rocket into the night.

Go on, son. So De Niro is like, infiltrate the hotel, swarming with cops, once again breaking his own code, because the heat is here, and he is like, he's going past it to kill his co- The heat is around the corner, and you are walking around that corner to meet the heat! Oh, meet the heat. Meet the heat! He manages it remarkably smoothly.

I mean, he's several steps ahead the whole time. What did you think anti-fascist activism meant? If not breaking into a hotel to kill a Nazi. So yeah. To do something cool. To maglite some cars. Joining DSAL, like... Yeah.

So he breaks in, he uses Tradecraft and everything, he calls up the front desk from the downstairs and he's like, hey, sorry, it's housekeeping here, whoever his name is, like, Wayne Grow ordered a bacon sandwich and they messed his room number up, what is it? And he just gets the room number. ALICE Yeah, he ordered a bacon sandwich cut into the shape of a swastika, I don't know why he did that. RILEY Yeah. It's impractical, just to begin with.

RILEY He also ordered this gun! ALICE Yeah, he's in room 1488 or whatever. So, he goes up there, he pulls the fire alarm, and like, everybody's evacuating. Breaks into the room, kills Wayne Groh. Kills him in the same way that they killed the last guard, by the way, something called a Mozambique drill. LIAM Yeah. Two in the chest, one in the head.

ALICE Yeah, so, shoots him twice on the chest, one on the head. And, uh, almost gets caught on the way out, and has to, like, beat a cop unconscious. JUSTIN Mmhm. As you do. ALICE Vincent Al Pacino is, like, running to the scene, and he has the same thing again, he almost gets to the getaway car, and then he sees the heat. JUSTIN And actually, someone pointed out, this is, when

I was doing my work on this before, so I didn't catch this, so I'm not taking credit for it, but apparently, if you time it from when De Niro sees Pacino, to when he finally turns and walks and starts moving away from the car, is literally 30 seconds. Oh my god. God dammit. He uses all of his time, that's incredible. That's so annoying, that's really good.

The thing that I really like about this, he runs, but he doesn't just walk away, he starts walking away, but again, we learn the art of holding the camera on things, we have to hold on him jogging away from the car through this crowd, and it's like, he doesn't get to do the Jason Bourne thing of just disappearing behind two trams or whatever, we have to see him running, like, we have to see him as a fugitive. Yeah. And scrambling through a bush, scaling a fence. Yeah, he makes a run for the airfields, and Pacino follows him.

It's pre-911, so you could get into an airport without getting the five star wanted level. And... ALICE They have this kind of sneaking duel in the airfield. RILEY Yeah, they do have a sneaking duel. This is a fucking sick location for a final showdown as well, because it's all dark, obviously, because it's nighttime, but occasionally it's getting lit up by a plane coming into land or something, and it gets way too bright. RILEY Yeah, and the landing lights at the end of the runway.

Yeah, really exciting, just a good place for the movie to end. Oh, really, really good. And yes, they have this shootout that comes down to instinct, right? It's one of the things that kind of, the interview scene, that's one of the things why the diner scene, one of the things it's for, is, y'know, trying to get a sense of this guy, trying to get inside his head, on this kind of cop theory that this will develop some intuition onto whether this guy's gonna, like, break left or right kind of thing.

And like, ultimately is vindicated, because the landing lights come on, he sees De Niro's shadow, and he shoots quicker and he kills him. RILEY It's really good, because the first shot he fires almost instinctively, and then you get, like, he fires, and we see that he sees that it's De Niro, and we see him lock in and rotate, grab the gun with the other hand, and just keep firing. Like, he says to him at the end of the dynasty, and he's like, I'm not going to hesitate. And he doesn't.

Just like, good. Yeah. They have this moment where they shake hands and Robert De Niro says, I'm heat, and you are hotter, and now I'm cold. Yeah. Our greatest love story ever told. They don't even shake hands, they hold hands. They hold hands. I know, I'm crying.

Well, De Niro dies, yeah, they hold hands. It's operatic. And Pachina looks wistfully off into the airstrip. ALICE Yeah. The way the man describes this, right, is two characters who are alone together, who are the only ones who are fully self-conscious, right? They know what they want, and they know what they are, and they're sort of engaged in this master and slave kind of situation of consciousness, and they... one triumphs, right? One of them kills the other.

And they sort of have this moment of shared, mutual self-knowledge together. Like I said, it's very operatic, it's fucking tosca, or something. Dino's last words are like, I'm not going back. I just think, oh no, you're not. I'm heat- I'm heated, you heated me. In that moment he truly became heat. You're the heat, and I'm chill.

And then it ends. And that's it. Fine. Yeah. Until you read the book that the sequel is. REHEATED? RILEY I believe it was posted on AO3, I think I was, I read it myself. ALICE Yeah, they do a lot of, like, mouth stuff.

RILEY Mmm. Yeah, they do. RILEY Yeah, just eating it, just, awawawawawawawawawawawawawawawawawawawawawawawawawawawawawawawawawawawawawawawawawawawawawawawawawawawawawawawawawawawawawawawawawawawawawawawawawawawawawawawawawawawawawawawawawawawawawawawawawawawawawawawawawawawawawawawawawawawawawawawawawawawawawawawawawawawawawawawawawawawawawawawawawawawawawawawawawawawawawawawawawawawawawawawawawawawawawawawawawawawawawawawawawawawawawawawawawawawawawawawawawawawawawawawawawawawawawawawawawawawawawawawawawawawawawawawawawawawawawawawawawawawawawawawawawawawawawawawawawawawawawawawawawawawawawawawawawawawawawawawawawawawawawawawawawawawawawawawawawawawawawawawawawawawawawawawawawawawawawawawawawawawawawawawawawawawawawawawawawawawawawawawawaw What can we say that we've learned about masculinity or about violence from heat? SONIA I think we can get into this in Scum, because I've got a fair bit to say about masculinity and misogyny in this film. ALICE We have a science-based system, it's called the Scum System, it stands for SMARM. Cultural Insensitivity, Unprovoked Violence, and Misogyny. How smarmy is heat?

RILEY Yeah, if this is your first time here, start of a new series, we've solved movie criticism. SONIA Yeah. RILEY Yes. criticism. And we've solved it by this. ALICE We are gonna use this for every genre, no matter how... I am so looking forward to doing rom-com season and being like, giving Bridget Jones diarrhea to for unprovoked violence, because Colin Firth hurts her emotionally. On that basis... SONIA Did you say Bridget Jones is diarrhea?

No, I said Bridget Jones is diarrhea? What? Oh, sorry, I misheard, I think you said Bridget Jones is diarrhea. How smarmy is he? All the dialogue is pleased with itself. It's all very very pleased with itself, I will say. It's a bit James Delroy, it's a bit like neo-noir, and I like that about it a great deal. I like that it's smarmy, I think for me it's like, high smarm, but like, in a good way.

But it's good, it's like, justified. Everyone's firing lines off the whole time, yeah, but it's still... It has to take itself seriously. Yes. Yeah. There's nothing like, sort of trivial or self-conscious about it in that way, you know? Yeah, that's pretty true, yeah. There's no like, doubt about it, it's just like...

Well, so we give points for smarm, but we take it back for sincerity, so I'm inclined to say, like, I'm inclined to give it five for the dialogue, but then also maybe take one back? Yeah! Yeah, I guess so. Four. Four. Four?

Yeah, I think so. Cultural insensitivity. Los Angeles is, uh, a very multi-ethnic city, and your representation for that is Dennis Haysburt, dead sex worker, Dennis Haysburt's girlfriend, dead sex worker's mom, Dani Trejo. Oh, and Dani Trejo's current, um, El Camino. Well, there's West Judy in there as well. The informants, who are getting yelled at. That it.

Yeah. It's kind of, it's a mission, I think it tries to grapple with some things, particularly about, like, black people and black people's grief, that it's not really qualified to do. It doesn't do it in a, like, saccharin... I wanna compare it to Crash here, which is a, kind of, like, peak liberal attempt to do that through the lens of cop, right, I think it does better than that, but it's trying to thread a needle that it ultimately, I don't think is able to. So for that I wanna-

ALPACHINO is also, he's routinely engaging in police brutality against people of color, and this is not really engaged with, or even portrayed as a bad thing. No, it's just part of the texture of his job, y'know? Yeah, it's just like, yeah, police his job, you know? RILEY Yeah. It's just like, yeah, police do commit unprovoked violence against people of color, and this is just part of the job. ALICE And this is not a movie that loves cops by any means, it's just a movie that feels neutrally about them.

They're the obstacle, they're the terrain, you know? So it doesn't really interrogate that, because it's not interested in that, it's interested in these men. So... I feel like we're gonna encounter this kind of thing a lot in this genre. Yeah. Do we wanna call that then something like a four? Three for omission, plus another one for kind of like...

So omission is two, maybe let's give it another one for like, uncritical. Yeah. Sure. So three? Sure. Un three. Three? Sure. Unprovoked violence, and here we have Mark to help us. I defer entirely to Mark.

One of the things that stood out again on reviewing is just how many times characters almost but don't quite hit women. Yeah. I mean, there's some restraint, and yet there's the fact that it has to be restrained in the first place. So there's a lot of characters are shown as being just marginally in control of violent tendencies, which of course is entirely accurate for people who are prone to it in the first place. But yeah, as a result, there's an awful lot of it. Now, there's also some justified violence, but again, only within the context of sort of self-defense

or within, well, we're doing a heist, you have to smack the manager around. I mean, we all remember Harvey Keitel's little pep talk from Restore Dogs, but yeah, it's appropriate, like, within context, as far as excess, I mean, I'll leave that up to you guys for that. ALICE I mean, that's the thing, we have to decide whether or not the violence inherent in the commission of an armed robbery here is unprovoked, and also, I think the thing is we're gonna have a baseline for a lot of this unless we're really doing the phantom art, like, hmm, the cat burglar has visited you kind of thing. But, I think this movie stakes out a position of unprovoked violence, like, uncontrolled

violence, that's Waingrove, right? That's the kind of avatar of that. And all of these guys are, they're doing what's necessary, right? And they're using... It's more... It's a tool. Yeah, there's excess, excess or sort of gratuitous versus, I mean, not exactly virtuous or righteous, but rational, you know, sort of that, that it's violence

for a purpose as opposed to violence for its own sake, or violence for sort of gratification. And I mean, that's, you're getting into some, some granularity of it that is probably not, not quite what the STEMum system would need, but it is something you're gonna encounter a lot with this genre. ALICE It's like sadistic violence versus functional violence, I guess. ZACH Well, one of the first things we see them do is, Waingrove shoots an unarmed man, and then they do just kill two other unarmed people

for no reason. ALICE Yeah. I mean, on any sort of functional thing, you're locking this in at like a five or a six, right? They kill people for money. SONIA Yeah. It's not acceptable to murder people to pay off your gambling debts, I'm afraid. ALICE Even if they're really bad, you still can't do that.

LIAM Yeah. We should take a strong position on that, that we do not condone murder to absolve debts. ALICE Just because we think that this stuff is cool, don't actually... LIAM Just to spell it out. ZACH And the movie wants us to think that it's cool. ALICE Yes. ZACH The movie wants us to be like, whoa, when they do it, yeah? LIAM Absolutely.

But again, that's that parallel with the sort of drawing in the viewer to feel some sort of affinity with stuff that they would never actually participate in before. Or for that matter, will likely ever even witness. So, you know, it's vicarious. I would insist on a five at a minimum for this. Okay. Okay. Alright.

So, and then we get into a kind of a thorny one, which is misogyny. Well, thorny is the operative word because I have a lot to say. ALICE Please. Fire away. SONIA Carol Paitman is a somewhat problematic feminist philosopher who points out that one of the unspoken contracts of modern society is that women exist for men. And all the women in this movie exist for men.

Whether it's because I'm like, I am supporting you in your life of crime, or I'm fucking another man to fuck up your life of crime. Mmhm. And I look at the cast of characters, I look at the main cast of robbers, and I'm like, did all of these guys have to be men? Could Michael have been a woman? Could Trejo have been a woman? Wouldn't that have been, y'know, something?

Trani Trejo, there is still time. I'm not gonna say Trani Trejo. Even the forensics officer, I'm just like, she exists for Al Pacino. I'm like, could Al Pacino's character have been a woman? Like, y'know? So I'm just a bit... Out loud. It's just a shame. I look at this and I'm like, would I want to be in this movie as an actress?

And I'm just like, there's nothing in here, there's no roles in this that I would want to play. I think there's a thing here though, which is that, to me, having a female Neil McCauley kind of, it's not a bad thing, sorry, but for this movie, it defeats the purpose, because it's a movie about, like, masculinities. I think this works for me, in the way that it does, because these are, like, it's about these men who are, like, doing what they consider to be the manly things of, like, you know, stealing or being a cop, and who have, like, existing in those kind of, like, strange forced masculinities outside

of normal society, you know? I wanna push back on that, though, because you could have told a universal story about alienation and loneliness and the lack of attachment, which is something that affects everybody, and they chose to only use men to tell that story, whilst actually displaying a much, you know, another kind of alienation that affects half the population, women, and just not commenting on that at all. And I'm like, actually, it would've... Yeah.

Well, yeah. Beyond suicide. Because she's sad about her dad, again, it all goes back to, like, women exist for men and well, yeah. Well, beyond suicide, you know. Because she's sad about her dad. Again, it all goes back to, like, women exist for men, and then the man doesn't want her to kill herself. It's like, I dunno, it just bores me. Yeah, I guess it's a point that you can only really make if you're imagining, like, a mass of, like, normal women, just, like, off the side of the screen the whole time.

Like, but it just, like... I usually am, yeah. We don't want anything to do with this, by the way. Like, it's not actually a point that's made within the context of the movie, but if you imagine normal people looking at this, I guess, I guess you could come towards that. ALICE It's quite, I think it's a high misogyny movie. You know? RILEY Oh, is it?

ALICE I'm not gonna dispute that in the slightest. I just, I think that it's... Like you say, I think the story that it's chosen to tell is non-value neutral, I think it's just important to note that it has chosen one, y'know? It's a decision that it's not making thoughtlessly, it's a decision that it's making because it's like, are we gonna talk about dudes? Yeah, well, shouldn't always talk about dudes. Five?

Okay. That gives it a total score of... Seventeen. Which is... pretty decent start to robbery season. It's funnily enough, it's the exact same score we gave to Dr. No, all the way back in episode 1. ALICE Huh. It's like poetry, it rhymes.

I really feel like this is gonna be a high-scoring season in general, I think. This is close to the baseline, and then we'll see where we go from here. But, to tie it together, right, and I hope by way of closing that we've gotten some fire from heat, so to speak. Do we have, like, sort of... What can we end on? What can we wrap this up with?

What button can we press on heat? I mean, there is heat too, I don't think it's got women though. We should probably use heat for women. Dudes are inherently self-destructive. Yeah. The dudes rock, but in... The dudes rock and roll, but in a way that dooms them, is the thing. It's the same...

It reminds me a little bit of Master and Commander, Master and Commander. Yeah. Yeah. This sort of male centered thing. And they're doing all this stuff, the cops, the robbers and all that sort of thing. But it's sort of mutually self-destructive. The cops, for the most part, just destroy sort of their social lives. Whereas the criminals, for all their cleverness and all the commitment and carefulness are still just, you know, they're criminals. They're doing their thing, they're using violence as a tool, and ultimately making it impossible for them to live normal lives, even if they choose to try, because they're too committed to this, the use of violence has become too much a part of their identity, and once you reach that point it

becomes self-perpetuating. ALICE I'm so excited to see this emerge as a theme throughout the rest of robbery season. Well, in that case, it only remains for me to say, Mark, thank you so much for joining us. If the people want more, Mark, where can they find you? MARK Thank you for having me. I've got a podcast of my own where it's mostly just me droning on about violence-related

topics, although being that the Void has been calling much more loudly lately than usual, it's been a bit quiet on the podcast. But that's the Dr. Violence podcast on Patreon. Hell yeah. For a link in the description. If you just search for Dr. Violence on Twitter Twitter you'll find me there too, with links. Your super villain name? Yeah, no, it's a very super villain name.

Well, you know, I had to kind of pick something. And yeah, otherwise, I mean, Mark Geldof, you can Google me, I'll show up there if you're interested in any of the actual academic work I've done, for which no one pays me anything. They should probably do something about that, not paying anyone in academia. SEAN Yeah. If anybody listening is looking to hire someone in violence studies for tenure track, or even just multi-year contract stuff, I am very much available.

ALICE Why wouldn't you? RILEY You're looking to hire a guy in violence studies! ALICE There's so much violence around, why not study it? RILEY I gotta have a PhD in this. SEAN You would think so much violence around, why not study it? RILEY I gotta have a PhD in this. ZACH You would think that would go further, but it doesn't.

ALICE Fingers crossed. And we have a Patreon, you can subscribe to that. Our next bonus episode is, I think mine and therefore is gonna be Alps, the Yorgos Lanthimos film. Going back for more Yorgos! RILEY Talking about heists on main only, as always, the theme only applies for the three episodes. Yeah.

Bonuses are whim driven. Yeah, it's just what we feel like. Unusually dumber! Yes! Absolutely. We're going back for more Yorgos, I hear it's good for your gut. Um, okay. Do we wanna announce the next mainline thing here?

Cause I think we can do it. Yeah, totally! Okay, so the next heist movie we're gonna do, we're gonna enter the Ocean's Eleven universe with the 1960s Brat Pack one. Dive in. The Brat Pack? The Brat Pack? The Brat Pack!

That's the guys that lost Kamala the election. Yeah, they got Frank Sinatra to go to Michigan. Anyway, we'll deal do this next time. Goodbye. Goodbye. And that is the season premiere of Kill James Bond season for heist season. That's a heist said and it will be written like that the entire time. Just a point of clarification regarding the new art.

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