Kill James Bond! - S4E8: Dog Day Afternoon

Episode Date: February 21, 2025

This week on the free feed, we're getting into not only a titan of Heist cinema, but a titan of early Al Pacino. You can imagine which of us was practically chewing the bars of their cell waiting to get to this one.  Dog Day Afternoon is the true-ish story of a pair of men who held up a New York City bank in 1972, and every single thing that could have gone wrong went wrong. Joining us is friend of the show and all three hosts, Mattie Lubchansky! Listen to No Gods No Mayors Here! Check out Boys Weekend Here! ---- FREE PALESTINE Hey, Devon here. As you well know I've been working with a few gazan families to raise money for their daily living costs in the genocide. As a ceasefire has been announced, we hope soon plenty of Aid can get in and help alleviate the dire famine they're being subjected to. But until then, they still have to afford to eat, so we ask for you to keep helping them out, just a little longer. https://www.gofundme.com/f/a8jzz-help-me-and-my-family-get-out-of-the-gaza-strip https://www.gofundme.com/f/help-me-and-my-family-to-find-a-safe-place https://www.gofundme.com/f/help-us-maher-and-my-family-to-leave-gaza-to-belgium https://www.gofundme.com/f/htdcj-evacuating-my-family-from-gaza https://www.map.org.uk/donate/donate ----- This is an unlocked bonus episode, find the rest here, on our reasonably-priced patreon! https://www.patreon.com/killjamesbond ------ WEB DESIGN ALERT Tom Allen is a friend of the show (and the designer behind our website). If you need web design help, reach out to him here:  https://www.tomallen.media/ Kill James Bond is hosted by November Kelly, Abigail Thorn, and Devon. You can find us at https://killjamesbond.com

INTRO MUSIC Hello and welcome to another episode of Kill James Bond. I am November Kelly. I am joined as always by my friends Abigail, Thorne, and Devon. Hello! I'm walkin' here. And we are joined by our guest, senior New York City correspondent, co-mayor of No Gods, No Mayors, cartoonist, author of Boys Weekend and the forthcoming Simplicity, Mattie Lubchanski. I'm sittin' here.

How's it goin'? Goin' very well. Hey, what's up? Sexy and I'm sitting here. How's it going? Going very well. Hey, what's up? Sexy and the city. Yeah, that's right. I'm looking out on a beautiful New York day just before a horrible winter storm hits. Nice for now. And we've invited you on to talk about one of the most New York City films of all time.

And one that I think is gonna be very important for robbery season. It's Dog Day Afternoon. That's right, baby. We're still in the 70s. We're in the 70s. We got Pacino, we got John Casale out of The Godfather. Yeah, we fuckin' do. Do an incredible job.

One of the most alarming hairlines of all time. Oh, Sal? That guy? Yeah, Sal, yeah. John Casale, yeah. I didn't know which actor you meant, but as soon as you said hairline, I'm like RILEY Oh, Sal? That guy? ALICE Yeah, Sal, yeah. ALICE John Cazale, yeah. RILEY I didn't know which actor you meant, but as soon as you said hairline I'm like, oh that guy? Yeah.

ALICE He's got like the most heated careers of all time, and then he died very young. ALICE Which is a great shame. ALICE Incredible, yeah. ALICE So, you may have heard of bits of Dog Day Afternoon, you may have heard of like the Attica bit, we'll get there. But we begin with a title screen that says, what you're about to see is true. It isn't. It's kind of...

Yeah. This basically happened. They had to get the neighborhood right, which is funny to me. It's like, one of my favorite credits in any movie is at the end of this, where it says that it's based on a magazine article. And I think that gives you the kind of tenor of what we're dealing with here. Yes. Yes. But it is a very, like, based on a true story, in air quotes, type of movie. And so, it's 1972, we're in New York City, it's September, it's hot. Every- there's trash in the streets, New York looks like shit. Yeah, that'll continue for fifty more years.

Half of all the CO2 in the atmosphere today has not yet been released. Oceans are now back afield. There is like a solid 150% of the biomass still available in the Anatropical Kingdom. Everything is so much measurably better apart from murder rate and lead exposure. And you see some real, like, street photography. What if there's two linked? Ah, probably not.

Couldn't be. I have some real freakonomics statistics for you. My notes say, in terms of seeing trash in the streets, my note says, alarming dog nipples, because we do get a weirdly long hold on a shot. Is that your Mad Max name. Oh yeah, I've got like a leather breastplate that's got like six nipples down it, yeah. It's tough to put those in, you know, that's some real like leather work right there. That's someone who's putting the effort in to make that curious. Um. Now I'm curious what you guys thought about this movie.

I sat at a bank in Brooklyn and Al Pacino was here and he's about five years old? Yeah. He, yeah, no, this is premium early 70s Al Pacino. This is good stuff. The USDA grade A Pacino, yeah. I wouldn't feel comfortable lusting after it, because I'm like, are you too young for me? Like, how old is Pacino in this?

Like, he looks about 19. He's about 34 in this, I think? 35? Wow. You're thinking about this retrospectively from all of the like, 50s, 60s, 70s Pacino you've seen? Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

And you're like, retrospectively, like, oh, he's like 18 or whatever, 35 year old man. 35 year old man. He just has the countenance of a child. This is after Two Godfathers and Aceropicos. This is after those? This is the year after Godfather Part 2, which also, you know, him and George Casale. Wow! Drop the skincare routine.

Like serious. Wow. Unbelievable. You know, him and John Casale. Wow! Drop the skincare routine. Like serious. Wow! But so, outside a small bank branch in Brooklyn, Pacino, John Casale, and a third dipshit are in a parked car about to rob a bank. And it's closing time, it's like, early evening, you see the security guards outside taking the big flag, the mandatory American flag, down from the outside of the bank. RILEY You want three. If you're doing a bank robbery you want three hosts, you know, cause then if the conversation

dies down someone else can come in. ALICE Plus you have a mix of different personality dynamics that allows one of you to embrace more of a kind of a Wayne Grow type role, which really spices things up, drives the plot along. RILEY Yeah, yeah, yeah. type role, which really spices things up, drives the plot along. Which one of you three is the Stevie? Is the question. If I drop out about ten minutes in, then we'll find out. If you're sitting in a car waiting to do a bank robbery and you can't tell who the Stevie

is, you're the Stevie. Also, if you're sitting in a car and you're waiting to do a bank robbery, maybe turn off the podcast? No, maybe don't. Maybe don't. I wanna, like, I hear from people who, like, listen at work and stuff, and I'm like, if your work is bank robbery, that's kind of cool. You better not be listening to us at work.

You're like, you're putting the gun on a bank teller and you're like, holding one finger up to indicate that you've got us on the AirPods, and you need them to, like, be quiet for a second. Because we're doing a bit. So... Yeah, they're doing a really good riff right now, give me a moment. So all three of them head inside the bank, Al Pacino has a flower box, and we're like that obviously has a gun in it.

This is classic, they do it separately, right? They all go in a couple of minutes apart. You'll note, by the way, no heist music, there's no like, ttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttt has an alarming hairline sits down opposite the bank manager pulls a gun on him and it's just like, just be cool. Don't react. Keep talking on the phone. Don't worry about it. And at this point, no one in the rest of the bank has realized this is happening. And the third guy, Stevie says to Al Pacino just in front of everybody, he's like, I can't rob this bank. It's crazy. I can't do this. And then fucking Al Pacino, who's playing a guy called Sonny in this movie maybe it's like what the fuck Do you mean we've already started? Voce like we're already robbing the bank. You got it. You know, bro. You're robbing this bank right now

Yeah, the third guy with is sitting over there with a gun the size of a like a full steamer trunk I don't know how to tell you this but we're rocking and rolling as we speak. ALICE The hat has dropped, like, you gotta... Yeah. And so, as he, like, Sonny Pacino pulls the gun, the rifle that he's brought, out of this box, and he fumbles it twice in succession. He looks fucking terrified. Al Pacino's style of acting is perfect for this because he has eyes the size of dinner plates, and he is just, like, terrified by everything that he's doing.

SONIA This is the point at which I realized this is a comedy, because I went into this completely blind, and watching Al Pacino try and get a rifle out of a flower case that's stuck to it with ribbon, I was just like, oh this is fucking hilarious. It's like Rosencrantz and Guildenstern rob a bank. It's so fucking funny. Yeah, yeah. It's a huge contribution to this canon that I'm developing of big fucking idiot cinema. Like if you contrast this with heat, right, if you contrast that with, you have the music, everybody's going in, it's all very cool, he jumps on the desk, we're here for, y'know,

the bank's money, not your money, compared to Al Pacino fumbling a rifle out of a bag, almost dropping it a couple of times, sweating buckets, and then, as he goes, alright, this is a robbery, Stevie, the third guy they've brought along, goes, um, actually, I have anxiety. RILEY Yeah, he goes, I can't do this. And fucking Alpha G, I was just there with a gun, like, what the fuck do you mean, you can't do this right now, brother? RILEY This is in front of everyone, they've all got their hands up, he's like, I can't do this right now.

ALPHA G I'm an introvert, and I'm actually out of charge, and I have to go... RILEY I don't have to do this? ALPHA G...sit home for a little bit. RILEY Alpha G is like, alright like all right fine fine let him out he's just pointing at the guy with the keys like can you let my fucking third bank robber out of here. At one point he orders the security guard to let the third bank robber leave and he leaves he's like I'm really sorry man he's like just get the fuck out of here he comes back and he's like there's a girl hiding under the desk

I saw through the window he's like what do you a girl hiding under the desk, I saw through the window, I was like, what do you want? Okay, fine, thank you. The central point of all of this comedy is, there's like an airlock, not a literal one, but like there's two locked doors in sequence in the room, locked up bit, to get into the bank, and the security guard has the keys, Pacino is making him lock and unlock it, and then he finally takes the keys from him. And as Stevie is leaving, he's like, can I take the car? And it's like, no you can't take the fucking getaway car! NOSES We need the fucking car! Please take the subway, we need the car, man.

DARREN Yeah, uh, Nova, did you just refer to a vestibule as an airlock? NOSES Yeah, it's sort of like an airlock. Yeah, it's an airlock. DARREN Strictly speaking, this is a Sally port, if you want me to be really specific about it. It is. I do, I do, thank you. Um, okay, so-

Yeah, okay, and we will be calling it the Sally port from now on. We will, yeah. Confusing you, Sally, the listener. It's the port that you Sally forth from, it's the prison thing. They try and block out all of the CCTV cameras with like paint spray. And they've been there for 10 minutes already. Yeah. Oh, the cameras also.

Pachino can't because he's a short guy. He can't reach one of the cameras and you get a long shot of him jumping to try and reach the camera before he gets a chair to stand on. This is all fully played out. Like it's not tense and quick because he just said shit. And then he like runs and grabs a chair, like drags it across. Yeah, it's almost entirely like uncut, right? It's just him like, oh, God, I've started the situation. I've walked in here with the gun and now I have to do a bunch of shit.

To the point of like dipshit cinema, this is like, it's like a, it's like a new Hollywood cinema Verite Cohen Brothers movie basically. Right? Like it's just very like, it's shot a little more like we're in it, like we've established that we're in New York, right? Like with the street photography and stuff, but it is like Cohen style dipshits running around. It's really beautiful to me.

So they force the manager to open the vault for them, and then... ALICE There's a few things here that indicate that Sonny specifically, while being an idiot, is not stupid, in the sense that he knows about some bank security measures, the manager tries to use a key that will lock the vault and set off the alarm instead of the real one, and he catches it. He catches that there's bait, like, cash in the registers as well later, but the whole time, he's kind of, like, threatening them with this gun in a really ambivalent way? He says at one point, I'm a Catholic and I don't want to hurt anybody

before keeping them all at gunpoint. RILEY They get in the vault, there's no fucking money in it. GARETH There's no fucking money, he's arrived just after cash pickup. There's $1100 in the vault, cause they're like, they emptied it this morning! And he's like, what? No! Yeah, it was supposed to be full of cash, like, so they pivot, right, to, we're just gonna rob, we're gonna take all the money that's in the registers, we're gonna stop

them from sending off any of the like, silence alarms or whatever, we're gonna take all the money that's in the registers, we're gonna start them from setting up any of the, like, silence alarms or whatever, we're gonna take the thousand dollars in the vault and we're gonna run, right? And so, as they're doing this, they're trying to herd the hostages into the vault, and they're all being extremely uncooperative in the sense of... Not resistant, but just like, ah you can't do this to me, I've got a terrible fear of being locked in vaults. This is the New York spirit. I'm gonna be very direct with you, and maybe annoying.

Also one of the ladies, the kind of head teller, is just like, I have to go to the bathroom, and he's like, fine, okay, fine. How many people need to go to the bathroom? Like three people, who are like, fuck, okay, fine. How many people need to go to the bathroom? Like three people. Fuck, okay, fine. They go to the bathroom and they find out there's another broad in there. Just like, oh shit. It's just getting surprised at every fucking turn here. Really good. So they heard all the hostages into the vault, then the phone rings and the manager answers it and he's like, Al Pacino is for you. The fucking like, the whole time Al Pacino has been like, I'm going to leave the bank,

I'm about to get out of the bank, this is fine, I've just picked up all of the cash, all right, I know what the alarms are, okay, like leave one note in, take it out, so it doesn't like set off the alarms, dah dah dah dah dah. I've made $8,000 in 2025 money. I've made $8,000 in 2025 money. And then the second is like, the call is for you. You just see all of the color drain out of his face and it's like, Oh God, I'm in a situation now. I thought it was going to be Stevie being like, I've left my keys or something, but it's not.

It's, it's a cop. It's a detective. He's like, his line is, what are you doing? AHHHHH. Just getting, just like, the spotlight being turned on you in social anxiety terms, and the cops are just like, you are the most in trouble anyone has ever been. We got 50 billion cops out here, and they're reproducing asexually. Yeah, every cop is outside, they're reproducing asexually. It's like the whole building is surrounded already.

We got them undergoing mitosis out here yeah we got him undergone meiosis out here um the staff the staff criticized this didn't you have a plan he's like shut up i had a plan right it's a hostage situation now nobody come near the bank and we start killing people the bit where the hostages are like heckling him while he's on the phone ALICE The bit where the hostages are like, heckling him while he's on the phone. ZACH One of the hostages, her husband calls, and she's like, I'm being held hostage, and she says, as Arpatudo's trying to get a grip of the situation, she's like, he wants to know what time you'll be done.

ZACH Yeah, that's right. Boy, not just any hostage, that's young Carole Kane. ALICE Really? ZACH Yeah, yeah, yeah. ALICE No shit. ZACH Yeah, yeah, yeah. No shit. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, so he gets the fucking call, like he gets this call and he just like picks up the phone and he's just like, alright, listen, we're gonna start throwing bodies out the

front door if you don't cooperate, and then there's just like a long pause where he's on the phone and he's like, who's Jenny here? Who is Jenny? Yeah, it's your husband. It's your husband. He wants to know when you'll be done with hostage situation. She's so fucking funny. Yeah, the bank manager who is this like severe older lady, like middle-aged lady called Sylvia,

she's played by Penelope Allen, does a phenomenal job. Oh, she's the head teller, yeah, yeah. It's just like, what, didn't you have a plan? And it's like, no, I had a fucking plan, like, they were supposed to deliver money, not take it away, I had bad info. I'm fucked. She sounds almost concerned for him. She's like, you really fucked this up, man, we all were rooting for you to rob the bank.

I genuinely believe that if you tried to rob a New York City bank, this is how it would go down. Whether or just like, what are you, stupid, man? You didn't fucking think about this? The key point here is that Pacino is already the most stressed man in the world, going into the bank, and every single little thing has been another straw added. And so, he finally gets the call from the cop again, and he's like, alright, now it's a hostage situation, we're gonna start throwing bodies out the

front door, and you see the hostages get a little look off of this, and after he gets off the front door he's like, no I'm not gonna start throwing bodies out the door. But, Sal takes him aside and is like, I heard what you said about the throwing bodies out of the door plan, and I want you to know, I am 100% on board with it. Yeah, really good, cause he pulls him aside, he's like, hey, did you mean what you said about throwing bodies out the front door? And you're like, they're like, oh no, no, no, 100% no, I'm not gonna do that.

But he's like, cause I just want you to know, I'm ready to do it right now. He's like, oh, oh I see. Suddenly I have to like, emotionally manage my co-hosts as well, like my fucking co-bank robber. ALICE It's more stress, right? It's the most stressful thing you could say at this moment, is like, yeah, I will absolutely start killing people. I mean, I'm Protestant, I will kill anyone. I'm Episcopal, all these motherfuckers mean nothing to me.

GARETH I just got here from Somerile, I'm ready to kill. I'm ready to kill. Yeah, so meanwhile outside, like, 15 million more cops are arriving a second. They're like setting up barriers. Yeah, absolutely, they've got marksmen on every roof, there's like buses full of them rolling up. The FBI are here, the press are here too. So Al Pacino and the bank manager go to the back door to block it off. And they have this little chat as they're moving this big cabinet in front of the door.

And Al Pacino's like, yeah, well, we'll get out of here. We'll take somebody hostage so the cops don't give us any shit. He said, don't worry, it's not going to be you. I like you. You're cool. We'll take a married woman with us because cops won't shoot a married woman because of what he... And he says, did you see what happened

in Attica? ALICE Yes. NICOLAS Now, can someone tell me what this is? Because I picked it up from context clues, but what happened in Attica? ALICE So, this was a prison uprising, in a New York state prison. In New York, crucially, yeah. Yeah, in Attica, where, like, they rioted and overthrew the guards and captured part

of the prison. And actually ran it as a kind of anarchist collective for a bit, until the NYPD and the National Guard and every other cop in New York State came in and just killed indiscriminately, and as Al Pacino says, killed like twenty people, whether they're involved or not. Yeah, killing a bunch of prison guards also. Yeah, this was very recent as well, because this was in like 1971, and the event that this is based off of, the true story, this was based off of was in 72.

So this was very, very recent. And as bad as American prisons are now still, they were worse at the time, it was actually kind of like a landmark occurrence in the prisoners' rights movement. Yeah. Direct action gets the good people. Yeah. They might kill you, but it'll help.

Yeah, they will. But when he's talking to the bank manager, he's like, I know you have bank insurance, like the guy from Heat, the cops don't give a fuck, they will kill all of us. It's real Russian special forces hostage rescue out here, like, if they come in, everybody's getting killed, not by me. Right? Yeah.

So, at this point Howard, the security guard, has an asthma attack. And the detective outside is just like, can you give us one hostage as a show of good faith? And Al Pacino's obviously like, OK, cool, we'll send Howard out because he obviously needs some medical attention. Yeah, it's really good.

He gets off the phone. He's like, we're going to send one hostage out. He just looks over Howard and goes, him, right? And everyone's like, yeah. Like everyone in the bank is like, obviously him, brother.

Yeah. Crucially, I have a what I can only refer to as a hooting attack when I see who the detective outside is, when it is Charles Durning, Doc Hopper, and Papio Daniel himself. My fucking dude. Yeah. He is so fucking good in this, there's so many scenes of just him and Al Pacino yelling

at each other back and forth. It's so funny, you get the sense right, that he's been given this job because he's the only cop in the NYPD who is able to, like, move the order of the task, shoot this guy down one in the queue of actions, right? Yes. Supplanted by a yell at him with a megaphone. Yeah. Every other cop is, like, primed to kill, and this guy is only like 99.9% primed to kill.

And so he gets the job of hostage negotiator. There's also this little conversation with the manager when they see the guards having an asthma attack where, uh, he's, uh, where Sonny says he's got asthma and they make him a guard and the, uh, manager just goes, ah, he got, they send a guard school. So this is, this is great God, right? That really goes, they sent him to guard school, so this is great guard, right, that really established- because he's not even armed, he doesn't have a gun! Yeah, but like, he doesn't even have a gun, and the bank manager's just like, yeah man, he just like fucking lets the flag up every morning and folds it up at the end and locks the door.

He makes $105 of like a week doing this, as well. It's nothing, it's a nothing job. Yeah. So, um, and when they bundle, so Al Pacino and the head teller bundle Howard, the guard out the front door to give him to the cops and the cops try and arrest Howard because he's black instantly. Yeah. And Al Pacino and the head teller have to go, no, no, he's, he's with us. Yeah. He's a medical. What are you doing? And she tells the cops off in front of the crowd who by this point are forming. Yeah. Pacino is like, he's like hanging out of the Sally port. He's got the head teller

like around the waist and she's leaning out to yell at the cops as all of the cops yell at each other and Moretti is yelling at them. Um, and it's, it's just this beautiful little like tableau of New York city excellence is what this is. Yeah. My opinion and Moretti tells him like, come on, look at the situation here. We've got 250 cops, snipers in every room, give up. You'll be out in one year. And he has this argument with Al Pacino in front of everyone. But he was like, no, that's bullshit. You're lying to me. They've got me on kidnapping. they've got me on armed robbery, fuck you. ALICE Yeah, he tries to give him the, like, kind of soft sell of, you'll be out in a year,

you know, and Pacino just says, kiss me, man. And then he says, what? He said, when I'm being fucked, I like to be kissed a lot. NICCO Yeah, I really love that. My foreshadowing. Yes, yes, but like all of all of these cops, they're surrounding him. They're edging closer. All of them have their guns drawn and he's like appealing to the crowd. He's yelling at them to put their guns out and he says if it weren't for the TV cameras, they'd kill all of us.

And then he starts yelling Assaka Ass, and the whole crowd join in! ALICE The bit immediately before he starts yelling ASSACA is the bit that I think is most effective for me, but he is singling out a particular cop and he says, he wants to kill me so bad he can taste it, right? RILEY This is such a personal fucking fit. Yeah, no, 100% there is absolutely gonna be a cop there that is ready to fucking rumble. Yeah. I'm going to find this hard to talk about about talking about an eviction resistance

I did a couple of weeks ago. Yeah. Where a bunch of cops got called basically and they tried to figure out a way to get us out of there. I'm going to give you the crib notes of this because it's not why it is important. But me and Acorn were outside of a house in the middle of the valleys where Alas was getting removed because she hadn't paid her rent or something like that. She contests for the arrears had been sorted out, but they say that they hadn't

either way. Doesn't matter. She got this like, she was told that she was going to be evicted on this day. So we showed up, there was about 10 of us and we just stood in the way to stop the cops from getting in. It took about six hours. Usually they just sort of like see that you're in the way and they go, fuck it, this isn't my problem. I can't be bothered and go home. But for some reason we had fucking like Wales is finest on the, on the job. And they were like, we're going to figure out how to get these fucking like commies out of the way so we can chuck this disabled trans woman out on the street tonight, you know It's important to us and like there's a video

I posted on Twitter where one of the cops who comes for as well They're explaining how they're going to arrest us One of the cops is there and she wants to kill us so bad. You can taste it If you look it's un fucking believable like there are some people in the force who are just such true believers about this. But it is terrifying sometimes. Yeah. I've so many times been on the other side of a barricade from a cop that looks so fucking ready to rumble.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. You see it at protests too. Smiling, just ready to rumble. It's also interesting as well, because we get these, uh, like reaction shots of the cops who are like edging closer and it's like this mixture of like beat cops and like shirt sleeves and the detectives who are some of the ugliest and worst dressed men in the world, all standing there in their like mismatched check suits with their like little snub nose revolvers looking like the cheapest thugs possible,

it's absolutely no distinction, it's just like, oh, these guys are here to kill you. LWX There's one other faction that are there, and they're there even from this point, which is like, there's one fucking jackal amongst these cops. There's the FBI, it's an FBI guy in the case of this movie in in my case in the viction resistance It was just some fucking sergeant from the force But there is someone there who is just watching and is just like only thinking about how we get these people out of there Yeah, is that Lance Hendrickson that is James Broderick as Sheldon?

Oh, yeah, there's the two FBI guys. Yeah, yeah. Oh, we'll get to fucking Lance Hendricks. Yeah. Christ. The final humiliation from Moretti is that the bank teller has already stepped outside the bank and they're heading back inside now to continue the hostile situation. And Moretti says, Oh, let her stay, let her stay. She's already out of the bank. Just let her go, Appetino. And the teller herself tells him, no, I'm not coming with you. I'm going back inside. And like, in front of the press, it's like, my girls are in there, I'm going back in. And just humiliates him in front of the press. And the crowd is, when Pacino's yelling at it, the way the crowd is cheering along, and

I was like, New York excellence, baby. When someone is robbing a bank, you go downtown to cheer them on. Yeah. That's fucking right. He hasn't hurt anyone yet. Like, the worst he has done is scare people, and everyone hates the cops, for good reason. RILEY What's fun is that this was filmed at just sort of like, a bank, in New York. They just sort of rented it out for the duration of filming, and everyone who lived nearby of a director was like, can you guys just lean out of your windows and just watch what's being filmed, because that's gonna

really help the shots of people watching this. ALICE You get these shots throughout, because he comes in and out of the bank a number of times, and each of these shots is basically taken together into the story of how this becomes street theatre, and how the cops lose control of the staging, right? And that's the kind of thing that then preoccupies them, is switching from how do we kill these two guys, to how do we maintain our own dignity here, and also kill these two guys. LORENZO Well the NYPD generally, and police generally,

do love a theatre moment. I mean, look at how they did, look at how they perp walked Luigi Mangione with the fucking mayor! There was no need for that, that's all pure theatre! They love a theatre moment that they control, right? It's like, but as soon as the theatre starts being a little bit too in the round for them, you know, that's... Exactly. That's why the bit at the beginning is so brilliant to me like the street scene shots

Mm-hmm, because when you're watching you're like why this is just an intro. What is this? But to me? It's so like curtain up Yeah, but but I mean yeah Like it's so it's so sort of prepares you to like watch the movie from the perspective of a normal person That would be there and not like someone who's rooting against the bank robbers Yeah, it's just a hot afternoon in Queens. Like no one is doing anything This happened in Graves End which is way the fuck out like racism I just did Yes as a Queens resident, I thank you for your promotion of the world's burrow It's okay, it's what it happened in Graves End, which is like a really working class neighborhood, very

far out in Brooklyn. They filmed it in Park Slope, which is now very frou-frou, but when they shot it, it was very middle class, is what I would say. Now as a British trans woman who does occasionally have to talk to journalists, this next bit is my absolute favorite part of the film. Because the press call the bank and speak to Al Pacino and they're like, Hey, this is great. You're live on TV right now. Why are you doing this? And he goes, what do you mean? Cause it's where they keep the money. The money, the money's in the box here. Actually. And the journalist is just like, to us, just like, doesn't fucking get it. It's just like,

why don't you get a job? And he's like doing what? Like a bank teller and he turns the bank tellers, do you know how much a bank teller makes? And they all go, not much. He asked the journalist how much they make, which is so funny. Yeah, yeah. How much money do you make, man? But so there's, there's an interesting bit about this, right? Which is when he's asked about getting a job, the first thing he says is I can't get a job because I don't have a union card. And if you can't get a union card you can't get a job, and if you work non-union you're like, you know, working as a bank teller and making

nothing. Right? So it's not, like, straightforwardly, just like, you know... Working class hero, it's... No! Luigi Mangione is one of these places where that's like a strange ideology that he hasn't perhaps completely thought through. ALICE It's, the unions are incredibly corrupt, cause it's the 70s in New York City. But it's also just like, this is an everyman, kind of.

He's just like, the guy who happens to be here, in the same way as the crowd are just the people who happen to be here. RILEY I find it very ironic that he talks about not being able to get a union card while in real life. The guy this is based on was apparently actually in hock to the mob. And that's why he was robbing the bank. I want to ask them for a union card. I don't know.

Well, I guess he's not in good standing with them. So that makes sense. So he also takes the journalist to task and he's just like, you're here making fucking content out of my suffering. What am I going to get out of this? Like, are you going to pay me for being on the news? And he's like, I'm going to pay you for being on the news. He's like, why not? You're getting paid off the back of me. Have you ever been to prison? Why are you asking me about my mental health in this interview? That's meant to be about my

fucking acting career. Why are you talking about my fucking gender when I'm here to talk about the fucking awards that I've won? Fuck you. And then they say you can't swear on TV and cut him off. Yeah, no, it's exactly like, because they're just like, well, why don't you give, Hey, Sonny, how about you give up? And he's like, Oh, how about I give up? You ever been to prison? And the guy's like, no, I've never been to prison. He's like, Oh, how about we talk about some of you fucking know that.

And they like cut him off the air. And the thing, the thing as well that I want to emphasize here is that as you need to, to make it very funny, the Looney Tunes theme, which is funny to me. He knows that they are probably gonna get killed by the cops. He says, you're gonna see our brains on the sidewalk, right? You're gonna show that on the news? Yeah, you're gonna film it, right? And you're not gonna air it.

And I want something for that. And they cut him off. And you see that this is like, the hostages are not even like, Stockholm syndrome, they're just straightforwardly like, everybody that he's talking to is worse than him. And it's also, it's like, adding to the stress, we see some scenes of like, his parents, for instance, his mum reacting to the news. His mum's like, if he needed money, why didn't he just come to me? And the dad says, why rob a bank when you've got a sucker for a mother? Yeah. Just, yeah, great.

And there's like a neighbor who's also there just like watching the TV absolutely wrapped in that. So at this point Al Pacino goes Dutch van der Linde mode and he's like, okay, I want you to bring me a helicopter and a jet. And we are all going to Tahiti. We're going to take a jet. We're going to take the hostages. We're going to fly to Algeria. And when we're never coming back, OK, that's how we're going to do this. OK. And then he says to Sal, Sal, we could go anywhere.

We could get a jet. Where do you want to go? What country do you want to go to? And because Wyoming. Yeah, that's the key part is he's having to do this to like emotionally manage Sal, who has come up to him and been like, hey brother, you know how we like promised that we'd get off clean or kill ourselves? Well, we're not getting off clean are we? It's seeming like murder, suicide, a clock.

No, we're getting off clean, don't even worry about it, don't even fucking stress about it. We're gonna get a fucking plane to Tahiti, brother. Yeah. George, we're going to Wyoming, there's gonna be a rabbit farm. The Wyoming thing as well is interesting, because he tells Sal, right, like, he's negotiated this over the phone, right, and he's like, if you've got anybody that you wanna call, because we're not gonna be able to come back to the US, ever, right, so if you've got anybody

you wanna speak to before we go, go, can you think of anybody? And Sal can't think of anybody, right? So you're stuck with a guy who is not only so dumb that he wants to get exiled to Wyoming, but also a guy who is so lonely and so much of an outcast that there is nobody in the entire country he can think that he wants to speak to other than you. MZ I mean, Wyoming doesn't have an extradition treaty with the United States, as far as I'm aware. That is true.

If only Luigi Manjone had headed to the Wyoming border, he'd be on a horse march. Yeah, if he'd been at Wyoming McDonald's it would have been very different. So he goes outside to ask Moretti for the jet and stuff, when he goes outside the crowd cheers when they see him, and the cops are all visibly pissed. Somebody tries to tackle him, it's like the boyfriend of one of the hostages, and then that guy gets arrested. ALICE And the boyfriend of Maria. Yeah.

ALICE Yeah. Yeah. There's some racism here too, because that guy gets bundled away, and it almost throws the whole thing off, like, Sal almost shoots everybody. And Moretti has to calm him down by being like, you know, you've got his girlfriend in there, you know how the Spanish, by the way, Puerto Rican, you know how the Spanish are. Like, he's... which is fascinating to be like, calm down, okay, I got my calipers right here, that guy was Puerto Rican. Which, like...

And he goes NHS mode on them, because he's like, right, I want this, I want a chopper and a jet please, and Moran is like, I'm gonna have to ask my superiors, and he's like, bring him here, why the fuck am I talking to you? If you can't do this for me, email the next person up, and then if they can't do it, I'll just email them too. Get him down here, give me a chopper and a jet, and also get my wife. Mm. Get my wife. And so, get my wife. First them down here. Give me a chopper and a jet and also get my wife. Get my wife. And so, get my wife.

Key. Get my wife, please. We, we, we cut to the wife who is just this, this stream of, of, of like it's Hallie and American working class, like nonstop talking. I love her. I love her to pieces. Angie is like 75% of the women I've ever known in my life, and I'm not exactly- Hell yeah.

Angie is perfect. Angie is perfect. She has a very philosophically interesting moment because she protests that Al Pacino is innocent and all of this, and she says, her line, I wrote it down, she says, his body might have done it, but he himself didn't do it. And it's like, that's great. The robber has two bodies. Yeah.

That's really good. I love the philosophical dualism of Angie. I'm not sure that's a legal defense you could make. Your honor, this was not a temporal crime, it was a spiritual one. And her evidence for this is like, he's a good guy because like, okay, he screams at me all the time and is like maximally stressed. And one time he took me to Coney Island and there was a gun in the glove box and I was thinking he was going to shoot me and dump my body in the river. My favorite part about Angie is the perseverance of her fear of being shot and dumped in the

river. She brings it up like five different times. Like any time she talks to anyone, she's just like, oh I thought I was gonna get shot and dumped in the river. And her evidence that he couldn't have done it, or couldn't have meant it, or couldn't have done it in his heart of hearts, is that he didn't shoot her and dump her in the river, he didn't do domestic violence to her, he just yells a lot, you know? RILEY Worth noting that, actually, for something later, is that by her own omission he doesn't do domestic violence towards Angie.

ALICE Yes. Or his kids. RILEY We'll call this out later on. ALICE So now we're back inside the bank, they've got the TV on, they're watching an old Western, one of the lines that is sort of very important in that is one of the characters in the Western goes, what kind of man are you to side with the Indians against his own people on the TV? And it's like, themes are happening here.

RILEY Meanwhile, like, Sony is teaching some of the other girls in the bank how to do, like, parade gun movements. Things like that. ALICE Yeah, yeah, yeah. They had mentioned in the first hostage call that they were Vietnam veterans, so killing doesn't mean anything to us, which we see isn't true. The killing part, but the Vietnam part is true. And it's like, yeah, absolutely.

So like, contemporary, right? So Pacino sees, or thinks he sees, the cops trying to come in the back door of the bank, and he fires a warning shot to keep the cops away. And everybody panics, everybody's down, the cops outside are like frothing at the mouth, ready to just open fire on the window. They're like, it's time, it's time, it's time to go. All the detectives are like, crouching behind the car, Moretti is yelling at the bank through a bullhorn, and the crowd are copying him? Yes! He's like, stop doing that! And they're all like, crouching behind the car, Moretti is yelling at the bank through a bullhorn, and the crowd are copying him?

He's like, stop doing that! And they're all like, STOP DOING THAT! And they're like, flipping him off, and like, it's the People's Mic. ALICE Yes, I was getting- my note literally says, doing the People's Mic to the NYPD is one of the funniest bits I've ever seen. SEAN It's really fucking fun. NICHOLAS The People's Joker, it's so good. ALICE Listen, the legacy of Occupy Wall Street, it might not have been great in a lot of ways,

but it did give us the people's mic. And I think this is a beautiful implementation of it. But Moretti and Sonny just yell over each other. God, we need the people's mic in Cardiff. They just yell over each other like it's a badly edited podcast. There's a beautiful bit where he comes out and hear Moretti are yelling at each other and Moretti has this one line where he's, cause he's trying to blame it on like, oh, there's like a separate like tactical force at the back of the building and they, you

know, I can't communicate with them, but he says, I don't know how you could do any better. Which is such a fucking guilt, getting guilt tripped by my hostage negotiate. It's like, you don't appreciate all the stuff I do. And so they get some pizzas for them because they're hungry. When the pizza arrives, Al Pacino pays for the pizza. And the cops understandably realizing this is going to make it popular to the crowd. No, no, don't pay for it. It's fine.

We've paid for it. He's like, no, I'm going to pay the delivery guy. He's like paying them with money. He's stolen from the bank. The crowd is seeing this and they're like cheering. The pizza guy is elated. Al Pacino starts just throwing wads of money into the crowd and the people are cheering, some people get beaten by the cops and arrested, yeah, it's fucking amazing.

He's constantly mugging for the cameras. He's doing a phenomenal fucking job, by the way, of keeping them onside, like, that's really really good stuff. There's a key detail here as well, which is that the money that he's throwing to the crowd and he's using to pay the pizza guy is the bait money that the bank has separated, marked, which he knew ahead of time, so he's not even cutting into his own take, he's using their fucking monopoly money, y'know? Also when he goes back in the bank he's got both hands full with pizzas and cokes, he's

not even armed at this point, sounds in there. ALICE He tries to get beer for the hostages. RILEY He asks for a beer and Reddy's like, uh, let's not, let's not do that right now. And the delivery guy opens the bank door for him, and like holds it open for him, it's like really really sweet. Yeah, and the second he goes back in the pizza guy yells out like, I'm on TV, or similar. He says, I'm a fucking star! Yeah, Really interesting.

And in terms of like the sort of like being observed theme, um, there's one of the bank tellers, there's a girl with sort of like a big perm throw. Yes. Having the time of her life and every single shot. Every time the cameras trade on her, she's always like making like this face. Like she is having an orgasm and it's incredible. And I'm in love with her because being on camera was a new thing. That. Yeah. Yeah. Every time every time she's anywhere, she's always looking over her shoulder like, who? And I love her so much.

And nowadays, like being on camera is like, yeah, you walk down the street and like, yeah, I assume I'm being just like Twitch streamed at all times. I'm like nine angle. I was going to say there's some guy pretending to be an NPC kicking me. Yeah, being on camera is like, hey bro, can you fucking stop filming me for one fucking second please. She's that hostage, she's the one who's learning the like, rifle drills from Pacino, like, uh...

Gives them his gun, and it's like, this is how you do... It's still loaded and everything! Like, it's... The sole sort of line that's still keeping this hostage taking is Sal, with his gun, in the conference room, and he's just kind of sulking. You know? SELDIRK Yeah, and they kind of say the piss out of him too, because one of the head tellers is like, does anyone have a cigarette? And then they're like, oh, I didn't know you smoked, and she's like, I'm gonna start. And then Sal tells her, you shouldn't smoke. Your body is the temple of the Lord.

And then the head teller like points out the hypocrisy of this. You just like feel like a holy man. You believe in like morality and taking care of yourself. And he won't fucking robbing a bag. Fuck you, dipshit. And it's like all sense of order and hierarchy. It's like Al Pacino's in a shaggy like hangout movie because Al's in like a hostage movie.

Yeah. Shaggy hangout movie. Because Al's in a hostage movie. Yeah. So. Yeah, Al Pacino has been sweating through his shit as well the whole time. It's gotten to the point, his dress is evolving, ready or not, right? He's just got this sweated through shirt that's now completely undone. One of the things they do is to increase the pressure of the cops, turn off the air conditioning.

So everybody's sweating, right? And he comes out to yell at them about this, in fact, and for the rest of the movie, in the bank, everybody's covered in the sheen of sweat. Pacino is losing more and more clothes, he came in in a full suit, and he kind of flies out of the door in like a shirt that's like mostly unbuttoned at like both wrists and down to like sternum, and this pair of like khaki like bell-bottom slacks, and he's just out there screaming. It's perfect.

And at this point a new character arrives. Yeah, because he told them to get his wife. Yes. And... They do. Here we go. How do we talk about this character? Well, this is a character called Leon Schirmer, who is... Let's say that- all right, well, okay. Let's cast this the way the movie does. This is a gay man, right? Who is attempting-

who is, like, who has been told that they're, like, a woman in the body of a man, who is like, who has been told that they're like a woman in the body of a man and is saving up for a sex change operation. That is the way the movie puts it. ALICE We are dealing with a very 70s concept of not transgender but transsexualism as something that is operative and not, like, identitative. So what it is, is in this conception, and this wasn't even true or believed amongst trans women at the time, including the woman this is based on, because this is based on a real trans woman named Elizabeth Wilson. But the idea, and this was...

SHUT UP, YOU'RE LISTENING. This was, she's not, sadly, the prevailing kind of cisgender narrative of transness was, you are a gay man, and then you get the sex change operation that makes you a woman, and then you're a woman. But then you're a real woman. Not a trans woman, just like, woman. Just a woman. Have any of you seen the documentary Let Me Die a Woman?

I have not. It is from the 70s, and it is kind of a hard watch, but it is very instructive in terms of like, the conception of gender that like, the medical community had at the time for trans people, and the sort of games we all had to play, but it was sort of, it was this thing where doctors were like, like literally they say it in the movie we'll be making real women and they show someone get a vagina plasty on camera in the film which is gnarly to watch but yeah anyways I think it's sort of like it's an interesting document of what was going on the time and I'm not very helpful for watching this where

she's like they just have it is an alien planet when it comes to how trans people are talked about, and even talk about ourselves at the time. ALICE Absolutely. Because there were trans people who equally did buy into this, right? This thing of, you transition, you get your sex change operation, which changes your sex, you go stealth for the rest of your life. RILEY You're supposed to move away and cut off contact with everyone you've ever met. I actually, a while ago, I met a trans woman who did this, who at 19 moved from the US to China, went via Thailand, got a quote unquote sex change operation, and had been living

in London subsequently. And she was just like, yeah, I've been dating my boyfriend for seven years and he does not know. That's fascinating. And I was like, bullshit, and I didn't believe her. I was like, no way, you're fucking cis. And then she showed me the photos and I was like, my god. Absolutely, absolutely like a medical attempt to kind of prevent any kind of trans community existing.

The only thing you must know is that we have people everywhere. Yeah, and when you turn around, there I am. Yeah. Look to your left. Look to your right. If neither of them are transgender, you are trans. You're Stevie and you're trans. Nathan, if you're listening. Yeah, that's a good bit. Oh, the other thing about Charlotte, you're transgender.

Yeah. The real life people also, I was looking into this a lot was sort of like it was Elizabeth Eden was pre-transition when her and The guy Sonny is based on got together and he was apparently very resistant to her sex change operation in real life Taylor's oldest time Like him him and the other robber met at a gay bar. Like he was basically, Al Pacino clearly left his wife because he was, you know, a gay guy, which you know, can mean a lot of things. But yes.

Yeah. Something else is, so we later learned that Leon came out kind of during the relationship with Al Pacino that they got married. We see their wedding photo in which Leon is like presenting as a woman. And then Leon kind of went back into the closet because went to Bellevue, the psychiatric hospital. And that is also something that does occasionally happen in the story of a trans woman. It's not always a kind of like neat split. Sometimes people come out and then they kind of go back in the closet for a bit because they kind of put a toe

out and get scared and go back and there's a- there can be a bit of a dozy doe with it. I think portraying, uh, like, a trans woman character here as like a gay man, he, him pronouns, is like, it's transphobic of the movie. It's the- played by a Cishet-like actor, uh, like Cishet-man actor. Susan Sarandon's husband. Yes! Not even gay!

Not even gay! Not even gay! Not even gay! GUS Not even gay, straight, man. ALICE Appearing as me doing a morning podcast recording, because he shows up with hair all over the place, dressing gown up to here, and there's a real intimacy that's really funny, because he, I'm gonna keep using he-him pronouns at this point, because this is one movie does, has had like an injection of god knows what at Bellevue, the psychiatric hospital, and is sort of like, barely conscious, and all

of these cops are trying to wake him up very gently and very intimately, and one cop in the room, this barbershop that they're staging a hostage negotiation- Yeah, one fucking cop who's just dying laughing in the background. One cop is like, I didn't know he was queer, and starts laughing, and gets this death stare off Moretti, who is trying to, like, work here, and the whole time he's just trying to hold it in, trying, uh, try and stop from laughing. Well, he's, he's, I mean, he's trying to stop himself from laughing while Chris Sarandon is doing this, like, heart wrenching monologue. Yeah.

As Leon. Like, this is, I will, I mean, not to deflate my point about the heart wrenching, but this is one of the fag voices of all time. True. It's one of the greatest fucking performances. I wouldn't say this is a trans friendly portrayal by any means, but I suppose it is a sort of fraught question of if your character is somebody, so like Leon's story is like, came out, didn't like transition medically, but was like presenting as a woman, and then we learned that Al Pacino

was violent and like assaulted her. She tried to kill herself with a bunch of pills. That's why she went back into psychiatric hospital and was kind of like, not even detransitioned, but like went back into the closet. So I'm like, okay, if you are portraying a character who is at that period of the life, of like having done a bit of a do-si-do, it's like back in the closet now but it's a glass closet, who do you get to play that role? Not entirely easy to say.

It's very tough. ALICE And one thing I will say, is Susan Sarandon's husband does this justice in the sense that, like, the sense of dignity in this performance is- RILEY It is never played for laughs. RILEY Yeah. Yeah, totally. ALICE It's beautiful, actually. RILEY So, like, I think in the context of when it

was written and filmed, it was about as trans friendly as you're gonna get. Yeah. You know, like not to... I don't want to grade everything on a curve, because obviously we deserve more. But like, I think in the terms of the context of, yeah, when what, who was watching it, who was making it, it sort of was, yeah, I think dignity is a really important word for the sort of what the character was given. Yeah.

Yeah, I don't know. So in the course of this story learning what Leon's been through, the narrative that Moretti extracts from this is that Al Pacino is robbing the bank specifically to pay for Leon's sex change operation. That's the term that they use. Based, based, based, based, based, based, based, based, based, based, based, based, based, based, based, based, based, based, based, based, based, based, based, based, based, based, based, based, based, based, based, based, based, based, based, based, based, based, based, based, based, based,

based, based, based, based, based, based, based, based, based, based, based, based, based, based, based, based, based, based, based, based, based, based, based, based, based, based, based, based, based, based, based, based, based, based, based, based, based, based, based, based, based, based, based, based, based, based, based, based, based, based, based, based, based, based, based, based, based, based, based, based, based, based, based, based, based, based, based, based, based, based, based, based, based, based, based, based, based, based, based, based, based, based, based, based, based, based, based, based, based, based, based, based, based so based. That is based on how amazing that is. But also I just had a quick moment of absolute fucking despair when Leon says, oh, we needed $2,500. Can you fucking imagine? $2,500? I mean, that's about 20 grand today. Oh really?

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I often take this kind of, yeah, that's about right. The dollar inflation from the 70s to now is about eight. How much is a vagina now? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah.

Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah.

Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. preserving, so I don't know. ALICE I've only ever looked into peanut oil preserving, so I don't know. ALICE Get vaginoplasty, seemingly with no hormones, which is, again, unfair to Elizabeth Eaton. RILEY Yeah, you just get it and then you go stealth.

That's the fucking- ALICE 20 grand would, okay, so I'm looking at that one now, 20 grand would probably be, like, at the top end for the operation itself, you're looking more- ALICE Oh, so you're looking at the heated leather interior? RILEY Just north of, not just north of ten, but by the time you count into flights and care and recovery time and so on You're probably looking about that. I mean you're probably going to like Trinidad, Colorado at that point There's like two doctors that do it. There's one in New York at the time that does it I think but yes But yeah, so if you just have a vagina blasty and some of you probably have

Right in how much that shit cost? The NYPD are as usual pieces of shit, right? Like, Maresi is trying to use first carrot and then stick on Leon, to be like, first, you know, don't you want to get him out, you know, so you can help him, and then switching when that doesn't work, well in a way it's kind of your responsibility. Yeah, it's kind of like, he did this for you, which makes kind of you... it's sort of you who's doing the bank robbery, really, if you think about it.

ALICE You are kind of an accessory... Which is like, not true, assholes. RILEY No one would fucking convict, at all. ALICE It doesn't matter. RILEY This is like arresting Jodie Foster for trying to get away. ALICE It's not illegal to inspire a crime. By the way, I think it's really hot when people like ****, like healthcare executives.

It would make me very happy if someone would kill ****. I think that would be really good if someone did that. I would be very sexy if you did that. I'm not even interested, don't believe this. Kill ****. What are you doing? Americans? What are you fucking doing? Remember gun? Like if I asked you guys for a dead kid, you could give me 15 within a day. Just fucking kill. Please.

If you're asking me what I'm doing, Devin, I'm on a podcast right now, so I can't really be doing that. Yeah, that's absolutely reasonable. Listen, if you think you're getting coded messages from the host of Kill James Bond, I just want to be clear. If you think you're getting it from November or Abby, you're not. Don't DM them. Don't fucking do it.

If you think you're getting coded messages from me, DM me. Let's work out something. Let's get the logistics figured out. Anyway, this story leaks and hits the news and they're watching the TV inside the bank and they're like these two admitted homosexuals. That's so funny because Sal is like, Sal hears them go like two homosexual bank robbers and he's like, whoa, hold on. He's just an ally.

I'm straight. I'm just an ally. The journalist also says that the queer community has reacted to this in kind of mixed ways. Some people are, there's some queer people who are just like, hell yeah, we love this, this is awesome, and some of them are condemning this violence in the strongest terms. And the blue sky discourse would be fucking insane if this happened. Like, oh my god. Yeah.

And we see a gay crowd showing up. Yes! Complete with a banner. Yeah. We love you, Charly. This is interesting, because this movie casts it in the same sort of way as Cruising, where they're like, the gay community really supports Sunny and what he's doing, but because of the time that it's made, they pan across the gay community and they just show a bunch of

people that they consider to be freaks, all of which I think are serving cunt, but that's the design of the point. And the point is that Sunny is reacting with horror, with seeing the kind of people that are supporting him here, but I just don't take it like that. I didn't get that so much. I'm not a mystic. Something I saw which was interesting though is that there's the gay crowd who are outside the bank cheering for him, and then the other presumed straight crowd are jeering them. Yes. That is true.

That does happen. From this point onwards, like, every time he goes out, instead of universal cheers, he's getting half and half cheers and lose. Cheers and cheers. It's like, well I liked his bank robbing policy until I found out he was a faggot. By the way... Love the bank shit, yeah. Moretti at this point gets sidelined by the FBI.

FBI agent Young Sheldon. RILEY Yes. Bazinga, Agent Sheldon is here. ALICE Listen, it's not difficult to make the FBI sinister because they are in real life, but like, this is- RILEY Well, I mean, they're getting shut down right now so- RILEY By a bunch of fucking teenagers, so-

ALICE For being too woke, but like, yeah, this is some of the most sinister FBI in the game. RILEY And if you're in the FBI, easy way to get back on top, you know? I'm just saying. They let six twinks in the door and now the FBI's done, it's a shame. But it's okay. You know?

Uncock the FBI. FBI agent Young Sheldon comes to the door and he's like, listen, these guys, we don't wanna kill you, you know? But, you know, it's just, we're just doing our job. To which we get one of my favorite lines in the movie, Sonny says, the guy who kills me I hope he does it because he hates my guts, not because it's his job. Yeah, for real. And Pacino allows Agent Young Sheldon to come inside and just take a look around.

The tellers yell at him, they're like, why aren't you sorting this out faster? Which is funny. Sal's like, hey, tell the news to stop saying I'm gay. ALICE Really like that, yeah. It's bugbear the whole time. ALICE On the way out, Agent Sheldon gets him by the door in the Sally port, where Sal can't hear him, ironic given the name, and he's like, listen, we know that Sal's the only one who's serious about this hostage taking thing. You just stand by, we'll take care of Sal.

Yeah, he leans in and goes, we'll take care of Sal, don't worry about it. And now Pacino's like, whoa, hold on a minute, Sal's my boy, we're in this together. And he's like, we'll take care of him, don't worry. And just goes away. This is fucking terrifying! It is. And then when Sal asks what that was all about, Pacino lies to him and is just like, oh, he's just telling me about the bus that's coming, they can't get a chopper, they're gonna get

a bus. It's now kind of, it's gonna be ambiguous for the rest of the movie whether or not Pacino is thinking about selling Sal out. Yes. Uh, the manager has a diabetic attack, he gets hypoglycemic and they have to run a doctor in out of the crowd. He also has to get... So like, Sheldon's other thing is, right, now you're gonna have to take phone calls

from every person in your life who's gonna stress you out. Like, every person in this motherfucker's life who is annoying, coming over or calling him to annoy him worse. Right? Like... First, I believe is. Yeah. Leon calls back. We get this beautifully written drama scene where Leon calls and obviously these, you know, these people are lovers and maybe haven't spoken in a while. And Pacino asks how you've been and like Bellevue was rough and Pacino's like, look, I'm going to,

I'm going to die here. And Leon's like, well, you know, I tried to kill myself to get away from you. This is what you do. You hurt the people around you. And Patina's like, I'm under a lot of fucking pressure. Like I'm doing my best. And do you want to come with me? And they was like, no, what the fuck? But like, I wish you well. And like, it's very, you know, this is really beautifully written. Yeah. I'm not an accessory. It's like, what the fuck? You didn't tell me they were listening. And it's really beautiful. Obviously, the cops are listening in.

You get the shots of like all of them. There's like 75 guys in the room listening to like a handset and just saying nothing. Yeah. All in one handset. And meanwhile, Sonny is just like, Maready, is that you? Can you fucking say something about it? He's just deathly silent the whole time. And he asks, he like he asked again, is like And he's just deathly silent the whole time. And he asks, he asks again, he's like, alright, are they off the line now? And Leon goes,

yeah, sure. Like, it's not like Leon is trying to lie, it's more just like, yeah, fine. Let's imagine they're off the line. Why not? And this conversation concludes with Pacino saying, well, are you gonna go back to Bellevue and are you gonna get the operation and transition basically? And Lin's like, yeah I am. And Pacino's like, okay, well, goodbye and good luck. And that's a sort of mutual sentiment. It's really quite beautiful, actually. ALICE Yeah. Then they send his mother over.

RILEY Not yet, no. Then his legal wife calls. ALICE Yeah, this is funny, cause he gets on the phone, he's just, he's ringing the phone, he's looking up at like Sal and he's like, you know, I could ring anyone right now, and they put him on. I could talk to the Pope right now. Look who I've got to fucking ring. And he rings his wife.

And he's like, hey baby, I'm in the bank. And she just doesn't stop talking. Yeah, she's like, I've been so worried about you, you've been acting weird lately, you've been yelling at me, you've been yelling at the kids, and like she just doesn't stop talking. Yeah. It's just like, I've been so worried about you. You've been acting weird lately. You've been yelling at me. You've been yelling at the kids. And like, she just doesn't stop talking. I thought you were going to shoot me and dump me in the river. Yeah. And then Pachina's like, shut the fuck up!

She's like, how could you have sex with Leon? Like, what is going on here? And then he just, he just hangs up. I wish I had written him down, but doesn't she bring up like some really mundane thing about their lives that he's supposed to do? I don't know. I don't know. I feel doesn't she bring up like some really mundane thing about their lives that he's supposed to do? She starts talking about like the most like inane shit on earth and he gets so mad at her. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I believe so It just like just hangs up mid-sense. Just like fucking I can't do this

Then they bring his mom in then they bring his mom in who uh, like gets him outside the bank and is again talking non-stop about how she told the cops that he's a good guy, really, she says, I told them you were worth gold water in 64 at the convention. Which is really good, yeah. And then she's like, oh, they've told me that nothing will happen if you just give up, and this is classic mum shit, alright. And she also says, and this bit is kind of fascinating actually, she says, I know the only reason you've been sleeping with Leon is because Angie's been mistreating you, that must be what it is. I never liked her. She's obviously not been a good enough wife, which

is why you felt the need to go and do this. This is some of the most like, Italian working class 1970s masculinity of being like, well, my son's not gay, right? He's like, he's just fucking around because his wife is kind of a bitch and she's not giving him what he needs, you know? It's really, really acutely observed, I really like it. So he's not gonna give up. He hugs his mom goodbye, goes back in the bank. They turn off the lights as well, and it's getting dark at this point. RILEY This is the point, yeah, this is the point

at which the FBI agent is in charge of the scene now. This is nothing to do with Moretti, Moretti's fucking gone. It's the FBI, and they turn the lights off. You know? ALICE Yeah. ALICE He gets the head teller to write him his will, as well. RILEY Yes! Very sweet little scene there. ALICE It is!

He leaves Leon, in this order, he leaves Leon $2700 from his life insurance for a sex change operation. ALICE He describes Leon as, uh, my darling wife whom I love more than any man has loved another man. Which... Complicated. Yeah. Complicated.

And then he calls Angie the only woman that he ever loved. Which, again... It's fascinating, isn't it? Yeah. Well, yeah, I'm reminded of something that you talked about on Trush Future a while ago about like, when people get desperate, and this was specifically in the context of Luigi Mangione, when people get desperate, they do often lash out in ways that are not politically thought through that are incoherent and strange and esoteric. And you do get people

like the guy who like blew himself up in a fucking cyber truck and shit like that. Or you do get the guy who like ran people over in a truck who's in ISIS, but he's not really in ISIS because he's just getting divorced. And desperation does breed these sorts of incoherent politics lashings out, because a lot of people don't have coherent politics at all. ALICE It's also modernity. Like, that sequence of him on the phone, the sequential phone calls, is really important to me, because it is like, he is the extremely stressed modern man of the 1970s who's just

got a lot of shit going on, right? And some of the best thriller movies are, like, premised on this idea, like, even Speed does this, for instance, of like, people just living in the world now have a lot of shit going on, everything feels like it's about to pop. Right? Everyone's clenching a styrofoam coffee cup with like an unsettling sort of amount of sweat. Yeah.

I will say that maybe part of the reason America's so mad is that they do make the coffee very strong over there. It's the correct strength of coffee. It's the correct strength of coffee. It's the correct strength of coffee. I'm tired in the morning. Every time I go over, I have a few days of adjusting to the caffeine. Because I usually have like two cups of coffee and then I have two in the US and I have a fucking heart attack.

And I'm like, oh God, no, sorry, it's the one coffee nation. I wouldn't worry about that. They're not letting you in from here on out. I was going to say, is that what happened to you, Abbie, last time we hung out, when you died? I was wondering what happened is that what happened to you, Abbey, last time we hung out? When you died? I was wondering what happened. Yeah, yeah, yeah. We got coffee and you died?

So the FBI are like, okay, listen, we got your plane, we got your bus to take you to the airport, we've parked this bus outside, it's like a stretch limo, kind of, like, four by four thing, it's weird, and we've got, like, the normal style, completely, like, friend Neisman, the guy who's not a friend. Not the normal style bus driver, except he's slightly too folksy, and we've also got Agent Murphy, the most fucking black sight man I've ever seen in my entire life. Lance Hendrickson.

That's Lance Hendrickson. Looking fan fucking tasties. The robot from Aliens is here. Looking like he's going to kill you. Like, the audience member. We've got John, not a cop. Yeah, you wanna talk about, that guy looks like he wants to kill me so bad he can taste it?

Like... Bishop from Aliens, right? This is a man who is locked in. What he's locked into is his gun, to your head. Like, over. So, Pacino searches the vehicle, right, and he doesn't find anything, and the whole time the driver who's wearing the civilian overalls is being very folksy with him, and Pacino's like, okay, let me take this guy, and he can drive, not Agent Lance Henriksen.

And the guy's like, really? And he's like, no. You think I'm a fucking idiot? You think I'm an idiot, man? You think me stupid? Driving directly into the FBI garage next door? Like, what, yeah.

ALICE Yeah, like, this is the thing about Sunny as a character, right, is that he's half smart, right, and that's what makes him compelling, is that he's kind of canny enough to realize, as he says, everybody's a con man. Which is another, like, modern thing, it's like, this is a guy who is suspicious not just because he's robbing a bank, but because everything feels like it's cheating him. Right. Also to be like a gay hustler in the seventies, you kind of have to be a little, you gotta be a little canny to get around. You gotta be able to recognize a cop. Like, yeah, yes. Yes. I like that we don't confirm

whether he's correct about this. He suspects the drive, the first driver. We literally do, I'm afraid. Yeah. because in the next shot we see the driver next to Sheldon, he's wearing a full suit again. Oh shit, really? Oh, okay. Yeah, which I really like. So, they have to get all of the hostages out in a big huddle with Sonny and Sal in the middle, because they really think that the feds are gonna start shooting, and that's entirely possible. And when they all get into the car, there's a bit where Sunny goes, oh fuck, we did it,

which I really like, is just the guy who can't believe that this is still working. And amongst the hostages too, you get this perfect spectrum of reactions from horror to exhaustion to that one lady who is still just incredibly hyped. Yeah. She's so happy to be in there. I said drive away, some people in the crowd are cheering, some people are cheering and throwing beer cans. Yeah, it's almost subsequent, right?

Like, he goes through a group of people that are all just like, yeah, Sonny, woo! And then the next people are just smackin' on the window and being like, you are a faggot, by the way, I don't know if you've forgot about this, but you are. ALICE Yeah, it's more Puerto Rican guys calling him a maricon, right? Because like, Maria, they let Maria go, in exchange for the bus, and because Sal's never been on a plane before and he's nervous, she gives him her rosary, breaks my fucking heart! Yeah, that's sweet.

And then all of the entire Puerto Rican community of Brooklyn are just following this convoy of cops throwing beer cans at them. I love the moment where we arrive at the airport and this jet taxis up for them and they show it all in real time. It just really led the tension. Are we really going to get away with this? Is this jet very slowly pulls around? There's no music or anything. Very noisy, like whining jet engine. Al Pacino's like, I forgot to ask for any food. Is there food on the plane? And then Moretti's like, yeah, yeah, yeah. There'll be hamburgers on the plane.

Yeah, sure. Explaining a bank robbery to an American. The whole time, like this driver is being like, hey, Sunny, can you just like raise your gun up a little bit? Cause we're going to go over some speed bumps and I don't want you to accidentally shoot me in the head. Sorry, Sal. Don't shoot me in the head, Sal.

And Sal's like, oh yeah, totally brother, and like, raises the gun up every time. ALICE Sunny, by the way, is the one who has like a long rifle, right, which you can't really maneuver inside the car, it's like stuck against the roof. Sal is the one with the submachine gun, he's the only one who can practically shoot anyone at this point. And the only person who, as we've seen, wants to, and we've established that Sonny is maybe being given an out here in the form of selling Sal out. And so, when they get this question, is there food on the plane, which is clearly like a signal, Lance Henriksen is like, hey Sonny, do you mind moving the gun out of the back

of my head for a second, and when he does, he, uh, like, reaches for a concealed pistol in, like, the driver's arm rest. And we don't know whether Sonny missed that by accident or on purpose. And reaches over, shoots Sal Dad, instantly. He was, because he was right about cops, the whole time. They wanna do it, they wanna kill you. RILEY They want to kill you, yeah, Yeah, takes a mouthful. He was, because he was right about cops, the whole time. They wanna do it, they wanna kill you. They want to kill you, yeah, no, they wanna kill you so bad they can taste it, every single one of them. They'll say a lot, but it's so bad they can kill you.

And Sunny is the one who, like, he gets held at gunpoint and arrested because he's not gonna get away with just getting killed, he has to be more stressed out. Right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. We're not done with you, we gotta get you in the stress box. Oh god. Well, he's busted, and then the title cards at the end say that he did 20 years in prison, my notes here say, come on, Bapard!

Yeah. Fuck yeah. This movie almost got him killed, because it does kind of imply that he sold out his co-conspirator. Which you don't want to imply about a guy who's still in prison, because apparently that's violating a huge cultural norm to snitch on... It's very offensive in the crime community. In the prison community, that's something that tends to be sanctioned with shanking. Yeah.

Our friend little John Basso is based on, and unfortunately left us in 2006. He did die in 2006, yeah. But only served five years, soanking. Yeah. Our friend, little John Basso, was based on and unfortunately left us in 2006. He did die in 2006. But only served five years, so good for him. Yeah, absolutely. And the thing is, like, the rights to his story to tell this was, like, he, from that money, he paid for Elizabeth Eden's sex change operation. Did he actually? From the money from this movie. Hell yeah, dawg. Because the final title card says, uh, Leon Sherman is now a woman and living in New York city. And it's like, all right. Yeah. Okay. But that

is the language people used. You became a woman until, until 1987. Oh, kind of take that. Oh, kind of take that. Like it became a woman. Yeah. I fucking did. Thank you. Like, yeah, absolutely. Like, I mean, again, all alright, not to go back to Luigi, but this was something that happened in 1971. The movie, like, the article was written in 72, the movie came out in 73. This is like if Luigi Mangio, there was a movie about Luigi that came out in like two years time. It fucking should be.

Well, I've got something to tell you all, as you announce on the broadcasts, that I've been cast in the- no I'm kidding. I would happily write the movie. We'll figure it out. Yeah, no, absolutely. But yeah, that's- and it's sort of based on a true story, but it's using that to tell kind of a story instead about how like, modern life is very stressful and everyone's a big fucking idiot.

Mmhm. And also how the news is content. The news is content. Which we fixed, I think, a couple years later. That actually got sorted out, which was pretty good. The news is content, every cop wants to kill you, which I think we also fixed a couple of years after this. If you remember the movie Serpico, I think he Serpico'd all over them and then they stopped

being like that. This is after the movie Serpico. Yeah, I understand, but someone got in and changed it from the inside shortly after this, which was pretty good. It was really good that they did that. They hired the one good cop, which they should never have done, because it really fucked them up. After that it was more of a protective force.

So, yeah. And that's the movie, it's a little movie we like to call Dog Day Afternoon. I think this is gonna do very well on the scum spectrum. I honestly believe that, yeah. Yeah. I'm excited. Do you have any closing thoughts? Yeah, I was just saying I watched this yesterday afternoon, and it was what I would call a

good movie afternoo- Yesterday Dog Day Afternoon. ... because I had a great time with it. Sidney Lumet, my man. It's a great movie. This is straightforwardly like a recommendation, it's a big thumbs up. I think it establishes in terms of the heist as a genre, it establishes the everyman here, in opposition to the figure of fantasy that is the professional criminal.

This is just a guy whose life is fucked up, and is trying to get some shit done. It's not like something like uncut gems, y'know? Yeah. Have you guys gotten to Taking of Pelham 123 yet? Oh, that's very strongly on the list. Okay, because that's another great example of a very similar oof, I think. Yeah, a lot of New York City stuff in that too.

Great Mayor stuff in that one as well. Absolutely. Mayor's interesting. Yeah, so, Taking of Pelham 123 is firmly on the list, but this is something that I think is interesting because we're taking the concept of the heist and trying to make it relatable to, like, everyday anxieties, you know, like you get yelled at a lot by your wife, or you have a difficult relationship with your mum and you're like, I'm just like the guy in the movie Dog Day Afternoon, I hate cops.

Well this is one of those things, it's sort of, right, there's an intersection here, which we love when we're doing analytical podcasts, we love intersection. The first part of this intersection is, uh, oh god what's it called, Stockholm Syndrome, right? The second half of this is, is this is someone who has heard the sentence, we're here for the bank's money, not your money. Your money is insured by the Federal Reserve. You're not going to lose a penny. We're just here for the bank.

This is someone who believes that a hundred percent and has walked into the bank basically believing that they can just take that money and like, no one's going to get mad at them. Which I really love as a set up for a heist is a guy being like, yeah, it's just the bank's money. Like, you're not losing anything, what's the problem? ALICE It's also an interesting, idiosyncratic proletarian fantasy, right, where I'm gonna rub this bank, everybody in general is gonna be on my side for doing it, like, even the employees and stuff.

And it's interesting, because this is a fantasy, right? You read about bank staff getting robbed, getting PTSD for the rest of their lives off of that shit, because it's terrifying, it's a traumatic experience. STAN My mom got robbed, she worked as a bank teller in the Bronx, around this exact time, and got robbed at gunpoint. Yeah. It's not a nice experience a lot of the time, sometimes things like this can happen, but most of the time not, right? I'm sorry that happened, but I also did need to pay for my sex change operation.

Yeah. I don't know why you quantum leapt into Pelham Parkway in like 1975. I knew the security would be lax. Cause you knew Gail was working? Yeah. Different kinds of fantasies, right. And I think that's interesting on that basis, you know? But we don't have to talk about this subjectively, because we have a science-based system, it's

called the SCUMM system, stands for SMAAM, Cultural Insensitivity, Unprovoked Violence and Misogyny. How smaamy is Dog Day Afternoon? I think it's quite sincere. I think it's quite a sincere film. I think this is a very, very sincere movie. I don't know if it's smaamy at all, actually. Yeah. I don't think it is. No. I'm thinking like, one here. Yeah. Totally.

Cultural insensitivity. Uh, well, I mean, listen, are we counting the gay community here as a culture to be insensitive towards? I think yes, and it is. It has the same sort of 70s view of the gay community as like, look at these fucking weirdos. I don't know, I think so. They're all hanging out together. I remember the protagonist is a gay man, with whom we are very explicitly invited to sympathize. There is a specific shot that I'm thinking of where he's outside of the bank and he's

go and like he hears a bunch of people show up and they unfold a banner that says, Sonny, we're with you all the way. And there's a shot of his face where he like seems happy. And then it does this like close zoom over everyone in that crowd and they're all just like various of transsexuals, you know, freaks, the kind of people that I love with all my heart. But then it cuts back to him and he sort of reacts with like fear or like disgust and then goes back into the bank. And that in particular, I think is like the thesis statement. Like this, they think this man is a gay man who robbed this bank, but

they think that that is like a failing of his whereas I think it's cool as hell I interpreted that shot as I remember that shot and I interpreted it as him being like this thing has gotten out of hand and I'm going to die here that's I mean yes yeah that's like how I and less like oh no the the trannies have arrived and the other point to my my thought is I know I'm not like on the scientific committee here But my feeling was okay great. I'm on it But the TV showing that there's not one gay Viewpoint and being like some people are calling and happy some gay people are calling in not happy is probably like sort of like

Probably a revolutionary for the time. Yeah. That there's not just like one block of gay opinion. That is actually an interesting point. I think as well, it is also true that there are members of the queer community who look at other sections of the queer community and for want of a better word, cringe. It's true that there are some people who are like that.

Another thing we sorted out, I think. Yes, we did sort that out. Thankfully, we fixed all that now. RILEY Yeah, we sorted that out a couple years later, it's pretty good. ALICE We can maybe give it a point or two for what is now a decidedly regressive, but at the time entirely kind of progressive view of trans identity and homosexuality.

The one thing I do want to say is that, you know what, community IS a monolith, and are kind of like all robots are Puerto Ricans in this movie. Yeah, it's not good about that. Very bad. Yeah, it does kind of play into the stereotypes of that a little bit. Yeah, you take one Puerto Rican woman hostage and the entire community aggro's against you. It's a weird handshake meme there between that and West Side Story. Um, so... Yeah, remind me.

How about a three? Two? Three? Yeah, it does explicitly condemn the NYPD for being racist, which I like. So... Two? No, I'm happy sticking with three. Yeah, three fits for me.

Unprovoked violence doesn't really ask us to endorse... They don't do any. Well, the point is anti it, like that's why Attica gets mentioned all the time, that's why he's yelling at the cops, is that unprovoked violence may well occur, and the point is that he's trying to head it off. There's almost none. ALICE Yeah, this is a violent society, I go back

to the mention of Vietnam again, right? It's a society steeped in violence, and everybody's intimately familiar with it at the hands of the cops, and what they're trying to do is a smash and grab robbery that turns through their own incompetence and nothing else into a hostage shaking. It's... yeah. I think it's zero? I think of this movie as a sort of, like, one of my favorite genres of thing, is America's Haunted.

Like, we're a big haunted house. This is just what it does to people. We are steeped, we are bathed in blood since the minute we are born, and it drives a lot of people pretty crazy. ALICE So, finally, misogyny. ALICE Well, so this is a difficult thing to say, because- RILEY Well, let's decide on whether or not violence towards Leon Schoemer is misogyny. Because I believe that it is.

ALICE Of course it is. Yeah. RILEY Then it's quite high, right? Because this is like, Sunny, we know he is not abusive towards his wife and kids, but he is abusive towards Leon. That's true. Mmhm. Every non-transsexual woman in his life is this kind of shrill harpy, and I won't say that that's necessarily like an unrealistic thing

in itself to happen, but it is an authorial choice, right? On the other hand, some of the... well, all of the bank tellers are female and they're kind of normal. That's true. They're not so shrill harpy. Yeah, it's true. What he does, this is the story of a guy who can only make friends with women who aren't Italian.

Mmhm. What he does, this is the story of a guy who can only make friends with women who aren't Italian. He like, meets a non-Italian woman for the first time, he's like, obviously you're not yelling at me constantly, this is great. You're not chasing me around with a rolling pin, this is spectacular. Whilst it's certainly true that Pacino, we are told, has not treated Leon well, I'm not sure the movie asks us to condone that. In fact, it goes to great lengths to have Leon tell us this is unacceptable. And Pacino offers us, he's like, oh, I'm under a lot of stress, and yes, it's kind of, okay, I'm sorry for it. It asks us to understand his mindset, but I don't think it asks us

to condone it. She doesn't forgive him, they don't get back together. Yeah, very true. She's in this, every scene she's in, she has this immense dignity, right, I switch pronouns at some point. Um, but like, uh- I mean, haven't we all. And applying the test of would I want to play any of these roles, I'd be interested to play the head teller, I'd be interested to play Leon, that would be a challenge. I genuinely, there are some fantastic monologues that Leon gets.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Genuinely. It's time for the stage play. I almost don't want to spoil them, because I want the audience to watch this. I feel like misogyny is not a simple answer here, because it's a story about a misogynist, for sure, in a misogynist society, it's also got a lot of women in it who are, like, quite capable, like, I think a lot about

the chief teller, just kind of... Yeah. Not just, like, hey... But she's not a shrew, she's not a bitch, she's just at work. There's an interesting moment we didn't pick up on where it's only the tellers talking to each other specifically talking about, um, because the manager at one point swears and then comes to apologize for it. And we get this moment where the tellers debate amongst themselves about whether this is like a silly old fashioned thing to apologize for swearing in front

of the women. And one of them is like, well, I'm a Christian and my ears aren't garbage cans. And the other ones are just like, Oh, come on, come off it. You must be, you being silly. So they are kind of well drawn as characters. Yeah. I don't know. Where does this leave us? Tough to say. I think it's low. To me tracks very much with like the sort of like new Hollywood filmmaking where it's like the people are like, they are fully drawn. They are not like caricatures of women and they are real characters who are filmed as real people in, like, realistic ways, but like, the men making the movie, maybe,

not like the most incredible, sensitive feminists ever lived. ALICE Yeah. Yeah, I agree with that. On that basis I wanna say something like a three or a four, maybe? SONIA I could go three, I think it's fairly low. ALICE Hmm? Def? DELUF Hey, you know, I listen to women on these kind of topics.

Massive? Yeah, I think a three sounds right. Okay. Yeah. Well, that means it's not the best film. I make that joke almost every time you've ever asked me. It's not the best film we've ever seen, but it's very, very close because that gives it a total score of seven.

That is damn fantastic. That puts it on the level with shots in three quarter time. Yeah, yeah, yeah. A Michael Michael film, How to Steal the World, I mean, it's very- Bourne Supremacy, it's very, very rare to get all the way down there. It's on a par with the best Bond film, which was View to a Kill. Wow. But the best film we've ever seen so far is still the Quill-O-Memorandum, which is down on five. So very, very close.

I assume View to a Kill gets a zero because of Grace Jones' presence. Like a gravity sink for misogyny. We love that movie actually. That movie rocks ass and... Yeah, that movie fucking rules. I love that movie. Find the computer indispensable. It gets the bronze medal, born identity on sixth is still silver medal and has been for a long time.

Wow. I mean, the born identity was fucking great. But it's up there on the podium! This is tied for third place in terms of best films you've ever seen, I think, well deserved. Sick! I reckon so! Fantastic. Absolutely.

I really enjoyed it. And yeah, do we have any rosettes, any crosses, any medals we want to award? Uh, the Oscar for Best Screenplay, apparently. Hell yeah. Fucking okay. Pinning that to my suit jacket? I believe the Academy Award for Best Supporting Actor went to Chris Sarandon for Leon Shermer as well.

That is correct! Really? Okay, I'm not mad about that. I... Alright. Critical support. This was the second movie he was ever in. I mean, he did have a theater beforehand, so it's not like he just showed up, but still.

That's pretty cool. I'm seeing it was... That's Dr. Afternoon. Yeah. Uh, we have a Patreon, if you want to subscribe to that. It's a good time. We just did The Wicker Man, the 1973 movie with Edward Woodward. It's a great episode. I'm not sure what the next bonus episode is, we'll figure that out.

I think it's my pick. I think it's Abby's. Yeah it is. Oh, okay. I've got a couple suggestions. Nice, beautiful. Okay, well we will figure that out, subscribe to the Patreon, and most importantly, if the people want more Mattie Lubchanski, where can they find more Mattie?

That's an incredible question, November. You can find me on the No Gods No Maris podcast with November here and our friend Riley, who we will get to transition eventually he's he's been on this part before yeah friend of the show Riley we'll get him we'll get him girls oh we'll fucking get him if you're listening Riley we'll get you and then you can also I have a book coming out this July that is now available available for pre-order if you go to Simplicity Book.xyz, it'll give you a link to buy it at your local bookstore or wherever

fine books are sold. And I recommend buying it because I need people to buy it or I'll starve to death. Buy the book. Buy the book. That's pretty reasonable. That'll be in the loop. Thank you so much for listening and we will see you next time. Bye everyone!

Bye! Bye! Thank you for listening to yet another episode of Kill James Bond. The next episode in two weeks time on the free feed is Inside Man. But if that is simply too long for you to wait then you can head on over to our Patreon, patreon.com slash killjimz, bar onto all one word and sign up today for as little as £5 a month. The next bonus episode next week will be the Devil's Advocate with AJ Diddy from motherfucking worst of all possible worlds. Baby, it's gonna be good as all hell um i don't i'm saying that we've already recorded it when i'm recording this so it is good i remember it it was

it was pretty good and speaking of course of our beautiful patrons we would be nothing without our 15 pounds and above patrons and those are gilded dragonragon, LoweBjorn's daughter, CandyFox, Freya alawishas, Gustavo Lira, Elspeth Hunt, John Gammie, Nick Boris, Mike Berg, Hannah Oberhardt, FuckedUpInTheCrib, Blaine Balala, Canada, Remember Devon's Promise, HeBetterHad, DroneLover, Yarek, Melody, Morrow Gonzalez, LiveFree, Or Cry, A NewUncleWho'sLearningCardTricks, LaborDelenderS, LibraryHitman, live free or cry a new uncle who's learning card tricks labor to lend a library hitman top-o trip mexico main heart beef crime jack drummond kit divine wrote a book called alphas Mia Steve Widdish in the stars science daddy and hadonia make Victoria Roth linden rose caged and stay soft or die hard

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Yeah, I mean, Killstree's Board is November, Devon, Abigail, La Producers, The Wonderful Mr. Neighbor, Thayer, Podcast Arts by John De Luca, and our website's by Tom Allen. And I'll see you next time. Mwah. Kill him. Kill him. So Kill him. Parody unactionable.