Kill List - Cedar City | 13

Episode Date: December 10, 2024

The home of a devoutly religious father of 16 children is raided and he’s then interrogated in the backseat of an SUV. The FBI agents questioning him want to know: what connects him to a couple on the other side of the country? And why does he want them dead?Follow the Kill List on the Wondery App or wherever you get your podcasts. You can binge all episodes early and ad-free on Wondery+. Join Wondery+ in the Wondery App, Apple Podcasts or Spotify. Start your free trial by visiting www.wondery.com/links/kill-list now. See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Wondry Plus subscribers can binge all episodes of Kaolist early and ad free. Join Wondry Plus in the Wondry app or on Apple podcasts. Hi, it's Karl. A quick warning before we start that this episode includes allegations of child abuse. 11 miles southwest of Cedar City, Utah, the Pent family home sits as a dot of white against the arid and unchanging landscape. The three-story seven-bedroom house lies in a shallow valley. The backdrop is a mountain range of iron red rock. It's just before dawn, and for Christopher Pence,

the day begins much like any other. Chris is 40 years old and looks like your typical all-American dad with curly brown hair and square glasses. He looks like he is an IT security expert. He works remotely for Microsoft from his home office. Barefoot, Chris leaves his wife Michelle and pads down the hallway to wake up some of his children, including his daughter, Serenity. Today is Serenity's 11th birthday, but even so, for her and all the Pence children old

enough the day begins with Bible study. In the Pence family, children are, as Chris likes to say, a blessing. They have 16 children in total, from a tiny baby through to college-age teenagers. Chris settles onto the floor of the living room with his children gathered around him. They begin with a prayer before turning to the scripture. It's still dark outside as they read. The moment of quiet reflection lasts for 20 minutes. And then it is interrupted by a loud and sudden bang.

And suddenly the house is lit up. When Chris looks out the window, he can see a fleet of SUVs parked around the drive. He walks past the school room where his children do their lessons and unlocks a deadbolt that fastens the front door. Chris peers out into the cold darkness of the early dawn. No fewer than 14 people stare back at him. Bulletproof vests under their FBI jackets, pistols and rifles drawn. They're coming in, whether Chris Pence lets them or not.

My name is Karl Miller. Since 2020, I've been part of a team working in secret to stop people getting murdered. We broke into a scam murder for hire website on the dark web. And it allowed us to see every order being placed. Real money being paid to have real people murdered. The tally of these targets is now in the hundreds. We call it the Kill List. So far, we've managed to help law enforcement arrest or convict more than 30 people all around the world. In doing so, we've learned that the kill list is a window into the lives of people caught up in situations you just wouldn't believe. This story stands out though, as one where the murder order itself is not the strangest nor the darkest part. The people at the heart of this case aren't the targets,

but a group of five children caught in the middle of an extraordinary feud between two warring families. From Wandery and Novel, I'm Carmilla, and this is Kill List. Okay, so there you go. I appreciate everything Chris. Please get in, relax. Within 15 minutes of the FBI's arrival, Chris Pence has been escorted outside and into the back seat of an unmarked SUV. With him is Special Agent Brian Decar. Are you warm? I'm getting there. We've managed to get hold of the tapes, so what you're hearing now is a live FBI interrogation. I appreciate you being so understanding.

Yeah, I'd love to know what's going on. Oh yeah, no, no, we're gonna get all your questions answered. Inside the house, Chris's family have been rounded up and taken to the living room whilst a team of agents carry out their search. And yet, despite the early morning raid, the drawn guns and the search warrant, Chris Pence is notly friendly. By the time a second FBI agent, Chris Anderson, opens the door to join them, he finds the two men chatting away like a couple of dads at the school gates.

After some more small talk, the agents discreetly turn the conversation towards a subject they really want to discuss with Chris. Then they start to ask questions about the dark web. Yeah, you're aware of it. Have you ever been on the dark web? No. Never? No. Okay. So if not the dark web, like, look, we're all adults here, okay?

So we've grown men in the car here. So, but, like, so like, when I ask you this, like, what's, tell me about the worst website you've ever been on. Tell me about the worst website you've ever been on. Tell me about the worst website you've ever been on. It's an excruciating question. Uh, I've lived at porn before. Porn? OK. It's not a crime to look at porn, right?

Did you do that on the regular internet? I'm just a little nervous or ashamed about it. Well, no, yeah. But like I said, we're all adults here. I don't know an adult that hasn't seen porn. Okay, so let's get that out of the way. I don't know an adult that hasn't seen porn, okay? Do you do that on the regular internet?

Yes. Okay, what kind of porn are you looking at? I'm not sure where this is going. I'm not sure where this is going. I'm not sure where this is going. The whole atmosphere is deeply uncomfortable. First the agents act like they're Chris's buddies, now they're asking him about his porn habits. And with no real explanation about what on earth is going on.

But I can tell you exactly what's going on. Just under two months earlier, we passed the FBI a kill order. And that kill order led the FBI straight to Chris Pence. The user requests that the killing look like a robbery gone wrong. Then they settle on a price, $16,000, 8,000 per person, which is quickly transferred. The targets are a married couple living in Albany, New York. The user supplies photos, an address, and their names, Christina and Francisco. The FBI took our information on the kill order

and traced the Bitcoin wallet account back to Chris Pence. But the FBI are worried that with so many people in Chris Pence's house he might be able to argue that it wasn't him who placed the kill order. The FBI say that without a confession there isn't enough evidence to arrest Chris. So this strange meandering conversation with Chris, it's all to get to the bottom of what connects him to this couple, Christina and Francisco, 2,500 miles away on the other side of the country, and to make sense of why he wants

them dead. The two FBI agents quickly changed the subject again, away from Chris Pence's porn habits and to his unorthodox family situation. You know, I was just doing the math on this. You have a lot, I was just doing the, just sticking it to my head. Those are all your biological children too? No. No?

We adopted five. You adopted five? So they're all still, all five are their brothers and too? No. No? We adopted five. You adopted five? So they're all still the all five are their brothers and sisters? Yeah. Wow. That's amazing. You adopted five kids from one family. Seems like you guys are cohesive now. I mean. I tell you. It's amazing. You obviously are a wonderful provider for this family and I haven't had a chance to really talk to your wife or anyone else. But I imagine that the love you have for these kids is as if they're your own. They are my own. There it is.

Perfect. There it is. This seemingly innocent, almost wayward approach to questioning isn't an accident, because it will pull this conversation towards answering the case's biggest mystery, the reason why Chris Pence might have wanted to attempt a double murder. The FBI suspect that what connects Chris Pence to the couple in Albany, the couple they suspect him of trying to murder, is that they are the biological parents of his five adopted children. Chris Pence has 16 children in total, 11 biological kids with his wife Michelle, and 5 children

all adopted from one couple. The FBI steers a conversation to these two people, Christina and Francisco. Agent Decar asks Chris how we met them and their kids. No, we met them in Massachusetts. You met them in Massachusetts? Yeah. Did you live there?

No. Oh. So do you want the long story or the short version? Give me the long one. This is, yeah, go ahead. So we had a child and decided to take the paternity leave and go on a six-week vacation. It all starts with a road trip the Pence family took in October 2018 in their RV.

Back then, they were living in Washington state, and they were celebrating the birth of their tenth child. The reason that Chris and Michelle have so many children is because of their faith as evangelical Christians. Chris says that as a younger man he wanted to be an investment banker, he was motivated by money, but it made him miserable and God revealed to him that every new child was a blessing from heaven and that the real meaning of life was to lead his family. The Pence family were driving through Massachusetts when Chris's wife Michelle got a message online. It was from Christina who found Michelle through a Facebook group they were both members of

for mums who homeschool their children. We were traveling around and a lady reached out saying that she needed help with her children. And she was in Massachusetts and we just happened to be driving through Massachusetts at the time. So we said, well, we can stop and pray with you, but we're on vacation. According to Chris, out of the blue, he and his wife have been asked by a total stranger if they will help rescue their children by taking them away. She didn't think the children were safe with her husband because of sexual tendencies. By the father? By the father. Towards the children?

No. Okay. No. Just towards children? No. Okay. No, um, just towards women in general. Okay so he had some behaviors, sexual behaviors I guess? That's what she stated, yes. Not towards the children. Okay.

Okay. She said they weren't safe with her husband. They weren't safe with her husband. That's what she said. She didn't give any reasons for that? She mentioned that he looked at porn. He looked at porn? That's what she said. She didn't give any reasons for that? She mentioned that he looked at porn. He looked at porn? That's what she said.

We all do though, we just talked about that. But that's the reason she gave for them not being safe. Okay. Maybe he was exposing them to porn. You don't know. I don't know. Okay. Beyond the father's alleged issues with porn, there were other problems too.

The family were not wealthy and their housing situation was extremely insecure. They were a family of eight people, two adults and six children, living in an RV. Winter was fast approaching and they had not been able to find any secure housing. So we said, are you sure? Yes, well, okay. Tell you what, we'll go to Rhode Island. any secure housing. came back and she said, yeah, look, this is the best thing for my children. Can you just take them and go? I really struggle to make sense of this situation. The pences are being asked to take a group of children

from a couple of strangers, after only exchanging a handful of online messages, without apparently any contact at all with the authorities, and with only the vaguest of explanations for why the children should leave their parents. What we do know is that Chris and Michelle were looking to adopt for a while. They put up an advert online a few years earlier. Chris's wife, Michelle, had her own experiences of the care system, and she wanted to give a set of siblings a childhood she'd never had.

Her words from that advert are read by an actor. I was a foster child myself. I understand the struggles and pitfalls of going through the system and never being adopted. My sibling group was also split up, which was harder on me than losing my mother. We plan on being their lifelong family. We are committed to our adopted children,

the same as our biological children. Their online advert stated the Pence's could take a sibling set of up to five children, but Christina and Francisco had six. So the initial arrangement was for the Pence's to take all but the eldest boy for six months. Then they would return to their birth parents. It was meant to be a temporary placement,

not a permanent adoption. Finally, they gave the mother, Christina, one last chance to change her mind. I just asked, I said, look, we know Washington is a long way away from Massachusetts, I'm sure you want to do this. And they said, yes, this is the best thing. So, we left, we got to Massachusetts with 10 children and left there with 15. You left on the same trip?

Yeah. There's a moment here that we know must have happened, but we aren't able to see. A moment that must have been just so incredibly difficult. The children, these two girls and three boys, who all seemed to be aged between one and ten, would have packed up their things and hopped into the RV and then driven away with the pences, leaving their old family behind. I can't imagine what that experience must have been like for the children to suddenly be taken away like that.

Chris tells the FBI a story that gives us a clue. With their five new children in tow, along with the 10 they already had, the Pence's carried on their holiday. The new enlarged family took a visit to Mount Vernon in Virginia, George Washington's home and plantation. One of the workers there said, wow, this is a lot of children, are they all one family? Yeah, they're all one family. And the second oldest daughter we picked up said,

no, there's 10 of them and five of us and they took us from our parents in Massachusetts. Okay. Alright, let's keep moving. At the end of the vacation, the 5 children came back to Washington with the Pence's. They were homeschooled, just like the other Pence children, and just as they had been with their birth parents. So there were no public school teachers on either end of this exchange who would notice that five children had disappeared from one classroom and suddenly arrived in another.

After six months, the birth parents, Christina and Francisco, asked for the arrangement to be extended and the Pences agreed. And what had started as a short-term fostering situation began to spool out into a seemingly indefinite limbo. When the authorities in Massachusetts got wind of the situation, they reached out to the Pences. The Department of Children and Family Services were already investigating the birth parents, Christina and Francisco, regarding their remaining eldest child.

And they wanted to find out where the other five were. DCS came to us and said, we understand you have these five children. The Pences asked Christina what was going on. So then she said, it's not safe, because we said, hey look, DCS is talking to us about the children. And so she asked, what would you consider adopting them?

Okay. So we said, sure. The birth parents, Christina and Francisco, were scared that if the kids came back to Massachusetts as they'd originally planned, the local authorities would have put them into foster care and split them up. And so, as they saw it, the only way of keeping hold of the children in some way was to allow them to be permanently adopted by the Pences. Adopting the kids was not straightforward, emotionally or practically.

The authorities seem not to have been comfortable with the whole arrangement, but Christina and Francisco would not risk the children being split in the care system if they let them return to Massachusetts. Very rapidly, an agreement was reached, and in December 2019, 14 months after their first meeting, the Pence's legally adopted the five children.

With the already large family having now grown permanently larger, they needed to find somewhere new to live. So the Pences moved to a new home in Texas. But things did not go smoothly, and the Pences quickly realized that their adopted children were struggling to adapt to their new life. Chris' wife Michelle was stressed, and she vented her frustrations on a block. Her words are read by an actor.

Keeping everyone busy has been an essential around here because the children miss their parents like crazy. She seemed frustrated to realize how different her new children were from her own, and overwhelmed by the behavioral problems that followed the children's abrupt separation from their birth parents. She wrote about the newfound disharmony in her house and epic meltdowns. Never have we had anyone's struggle with sharing, and now it's a huge problem. Never have we had anyone seeking to undermine anyone else or using the level of sharp words and unkind attitudes that we see here now.

Never have we seen anyone give an eye roll before this experience, not to mention the screeching and yelling and whining that accompanies the above. However, this would not just be a question of five children coming to terms with their new life with the Pences. Because pretty much as soon as the adoption was finalized, the birth parents, Christina and Francisco, followed the Pence's to Texas to try and be closer to the children they'd just given away. We have Christina and Francisco's pictures from the Kill Order. Francisco is in his early 30s. He looks fresh faced, with glasses and a mohawk of dark hair sitting in the centre

of his otherwise shaved head. Christina looks a little older. She has a round face, brown hair and a warm smile. Like the Pences, they're also devoutly Christian. Christina signs off her emails, daughter of the King of Kings. In Texas, they moved about an hour and a half away from the Pences' new home. Now exactly what happened next is contested, but here's the Pences version of things. The birth parents were legally entitled to two visits per year over a period of five days.

Together with the Pences, they'd have days out together, like trips to the zoo. But according to Chris, things did not go smoothly. For starters, the adopted children learned that Christina and Francisco had decided to have two more children. According to Chris, this caused his adopted kids to become upset and confused. Why would their biological parents give them up if they were going to have more?

And the relationship between the Pence's and the birth parents was not just becoming more fractious, but also more intense. They were under the suspicion that they'd be able to move in with us and we'd be one big happy family and we've had to basically say we can't be like that. They wanted to move in with you? I stayed and can't be like that. They wanted to move in with you? Wow. That's what it seemed like. They were really looking forward

to moving their trailer down to our property, which we said no. They're really looking forward to moving within a block of us and going to the same church. We said, it's not gonna work. It sounds like they were looking for a solution to have their cake and eat it too, get their kids away from the state

in a protected custody situation with you guys, but still be able to be the parents, it sounds like. That's what it sounded like. Chris claims that during these annual visits, he was becoming increasingly concerned that Christina and Francisco were trying to drive a wedge between them and their adopted children. The birth parents were telling the adopted children that Michelle and I, the adopted

parents, were not allowing the birth parents to come over. Oh, so she was feeding the kids. Yeah. So he's got his problems and she's feeding the kids information that is supposed to look bad for you. It's certainly not helpful for the family. I can see where the friction is. Chris tells the FBI that things came to a head at a meeting at a Water Burger restaurant

in Mineola, Texas. Ended up with them having a list of demands that they wanted of us. They provided you with a list of demands. Um... OK? Demands. Hey, help us, help us. We're in a really bad spot.

We need you to adopt our kids and take care of them, but now we have demands. And we know that these demands don't have any legal standing, but they're demands. Yep, here we go. I'm getting frustrated for you. The Pences wanted to get away from Christina and Francisco. So after only a year of living in Texas,

they packed up to seeedar City, Utah. They've got no connection to the area. Chris Pence just found the house online. Michelle gave birth to their 11th biological child, taking the total to 16. And they did not give Christina and Francisco their new address, only a P.O. box that they could write to. So in May 2021, three months before the kill order was placed, Christina and Francisco moved back to the East Coast, to their present home in rural upstate New York. So far, everything Chris Pence is saying is pointing towards a strained relationship with

his adopted children's birth parents. But it doesn't explain why a very religious father of 16 would resort to murder. For their part, the FBI have been carefully lulling Chris into a false sense of security. They've been peppering him with seemingly innocent, seemingly sympathetic questions that have helped to create a shared narrative about who he is, that he's a good dad with a beautiful home who would do anything for his children.

But now, Agent Decar is ready to hit him with what they really know. You've been very helpful telling us everything about your family and your life. It's just it gives us a clear picture. The only problem I'm having is that I know that you've been on the dark web. I know that you've been on some websites you shouldn't be on. In fact, I know you've been on a Murder for Hire website. He shows Chris the messages, the Bitcoin wallet information, the IP address, and the fact

that all of it traces back to Chris. So we know that you were on the murder fire website, okay? I understand why, and after talking to you. Yeah. Everything you're dealing with, everything that you're doing, you are the protector of these kids, okay? You are the savior of these kids, and you do this for the family. And it's clear to me, I didn't understand why before, but it's very clear to me

that you would do anything for these children. He then pulls out something else. A baby book full of photos of Christina and Francisco that were given to one of the younger children to help them know where they came from. And Agent Decar focuses on one photo in particular. This picture here, the picture there, in particular. I know that you took a photo of a photo and you submitted it to the murder for hire website. I know all of this.

Okay, that's why we're here today. Okay. Alright? So what I need you to just do for me is help me understand what got you to that point. What got you to the point where you felt like you needed to have them killed. Because you told me there was friction.

I understand that and I was friction. I understand that and I get it. I understand where you're coming from. Okay? And you're obviously an amazing father. Okay? They pushed you to this. They pushed you and pushed you for years and years they pushed you. Here's the good news. They're not dead. Okay? They're not dead.

We got the site. What we want now are the people pulling the trigger. Those are the fish we're after. We want the big fish, the dangerous people. Chris, you're not a dangerous guy. You're just a father who loves his family. That's what you are. We need you to help us, help us understand and then help us find these guys who are pulling

the trigger. I'm looking for the guy that is going around killing people. Give me a second. Take your time. I'm more than one occasion the children have been abused through discipline, through by the birth parents and I know they're telling it to their other ones right now. Chris goes on to make specific allegations involving the names of specific children, which we won't play you to protect their privacy. And pretty much immediately he admits that he paid to have the birth parents, Christina Francisco and Christina killed. Bye.

Now, it's important to stress that none of these allegations of abuse have ever been tested in court, nor have Christina or Francisco been charged with any crime, and they deny abusing their children. We'll be getting into that in more detail later on. We'll be getting into that in more detail later on. For the FBI, the crucial thing is that Chris has confessed to the murder plot. And now they've got what they came for. He's swiftly arrested, read his rights and handcuffed. As he sits on the back seat, he considers what he's done and what now lies ahead of him. Have I ruined my life?

It is a hard road. It's not gonna be peaches and cream, but you'll get through it and you, I think there's a pretty good chance that you still have some quality of life ahead of you. Okay. Thank you. For whatever that's worth.

Before they leave to go to jail and then court, the FBI ask Chris if he wants to talk to his wife, Michelle. Would you like that or what would you prefer? I don't know. Probably not. I'd have nothing good to say. But then, just before he's taken away, Agent Decar runs back with a message. Hey Chris, couple things. I just spoke to Michelle.

First, she asked if she could give you at least a message. It's as simple as, of course they're upset. She's a, it's come from her, she's very upset, of course, but you're a family, they're going to stand by you, and you're going to get through it together. In spite of everything he's done, Chris Pence's family are standing by him. And based on what he's told the FBI, it seems like this situation could be even darker and more complex than law enforcement first thought.

But this is a man who has every reason to lie here, to make his actions seem more morally defensible. Which raises the question, did Francisco and Christina really abuse their children? This is not the first time we've heard allegations of child abuse on the kill list. And when allegations like this are made, it's important to take them seriously. But we also have to bear in mind that Chris Pence has every reason to try and make his crime seem more justifiable. This is definitely one of, if not the most complicated cases we've ever seen. That's Caroline Thornton, my producer. She's been investigating the evidence to try and

find out the answer to two really key questions. Number one, what is the truth, if any, behind the allegation that Christina and Francisco abused their children? And number two, were they trying to get their children back? One of the things that's really troubling as a journalist here is that we only have one side of the story to go off. So the first thing I did was reach out to the birth parents, Christina and Francisco, to see if they might be willing to give us their side of the story. And it wasn't long before I was on the phone talking directly with Christina. So when the agent called us and let us know that you might

be contacting us, I decided to write up a little thing because I don't want to say too much. I don't want to regret what I say but I do have a couple of comments that I would be comfortable being quoted on. So I could read it to you if you want or... Christina read me the statement. It's a little hard to hear. So I'll read her statement for clarity. We never would have expected this from the man we thought we knew and chose to entrust our children to.

We don't expect to understand why he chose to do what he's confessed to doing, but we choose forgiveness and we pray for him and for God's will in the whole legal process. Our hearts go out to his family for all the ways this changes their lives. Our desire is for open communication and trust going forward with the adoptive mother and family. There was no intent to regain custody.

Our goal in conversation was always to restore open communication and trust. Now, this statement only gets us so far in answering the questions we have. So my colleagues and I have been digging through the court documents, and we've also been talking with Christina over email to try and get her and Francisco's side of things. So one of the things that makes this case so confusing is that there are so many children between these two families.

When it comes to Christina and Francisco, there are eight children that we need to be focusing on here. There's the five children who ultimately went to live with the Pences, the eldest boy who stayed behind, so that makes six, and then two more babies that were born afterwards. So the first thing I'm thinking is, what was the home life like for the first six children before the Pences got involved? And what's the evidence, if any, that they were being abused? Firstly, the Pences allege that Christina and Francisco would beat their children with

rods. Now, Christina denies that this was abusive. She says that they would engage in what's described as biblical spanking, which involved spanking the children with a rod as a form of discipline. Christina told us that she believes this is mandated by the Proverbs. Okay, well, Christina's referring to the authority

of scripture, but what about the authority of the law? So, in Massachusetts, just like everywhere else in the US, it's legal for parents to use corporal punishment. However, the force used has to be reasonable, and it has to be done in a way that doesn't cause physical harm, gross degradation, or severe mental distress. Christina says that this biblical spanking was done, quote, with a goal of correcting the child in love, not in anger, but that is a hard line to draw sometimes as a parent and proved challenging for my husband.

Okay, well, whatever you think about corporal punishment, then the idea of hitting a child with a rod in anger, as Christina said, well, that's actually definitely troubling, isn't it? But what about other allegations, Caroline, of further abuse, things like sexual abuse? Yes, Francisco says the Pences accused him of engaging in sexually predatory behavior by watching the children in the shower. Christina, the birth mother, denies that there was anything untoward about that

and says that Francisco supervised the children in the shower for safety, but not in any way inappropriately. What about the issues around Francisco and pornography? Chris Pence, he told the FBI, didn't he, that that was a factor in why the children needed to leave them in the first place? Yeah. And we learned quite a lot about this in the court documents. So crucially, we got hold of the note from an interview the FBI conducted with Francisco. So Francisco told the FBI that he had a pornography addiction and would watch it compulsively on his phone, at his home, or in his car, and sometimes he would masturbate in parking lots. He told the FBI that he once accidentally looked at child sexual abuse material,

which he claims had been posted on an unrelated Facebook group. And he sometimes intentionally watched porn containing bestiality. All of this led to allegations by the Department of Children and Family Services in Massachusetts that Francisco had been exposing his children to porn.

But Francisco maintained that he only watched it in places where the children couldn't see. So did the Department of Children and Family Services ever step in then on the basis allegations to actually do an investigation? Yes, they did. These investigations centered on Christina and Francisco's eldest child.

So that's the one who stayed behind when his siblings left with the Pences. He was taken into foster care for 18 months. And later, when Christina gave birth to her seventh child, the baby was immediately taken into care for a week. Now, ultimately both children were returned and Christina maintains that she and Francisco have never abused the children.

She says that despite all these interventions and investigations, the allegations weren't proven and that she and Francisco ultimately were vindicated. We haven't been able to independently corroborate that. Christina says she has no documentation that she can share with us to show what the authorities concluded. And DCF wouldn't talk to us either, which, given how sensitive this all is, is hardly surprising. So there's a lot of allegations and also actually a lot of facts there that are really unsettling. And it's hard to believe that the authorities would do something so extreme as to take away a newborn baby,

unless there were really very serious concerns indeed. But at the same time there's no definitive investigation is there or a judgment that we can point to that can actually help us say what did happen and what didn't and by whom and when. No exactly but even if we don't have all the answers this seems to be a family with a lot of issues that make you really worry about the welfare of the kids and what they've potentially been But even if we don't have all the answers, this seems to be a family with a lot of issues that make you really worry about the welfare of the kids and what they've potentially been exposed to here. What about this idea that Christina and Francisco were also trying to get their kids back? So according to Chris Pence, this is the key trigger for why he placed Christina and Francisco on the kill list.

is the key trigger for why he placed Christina and Francisco on the kill list. He says that beyond all the allegations of abuse, he feared that his adopted children would be returned to their birth parents, and that the kill order was a misguided attempt to stop that from happening. For her part, Christina denies trying to get the children back, or ever trying to move in with the Pences. She says that they never took any steps to try and retake custody of the kids so there was no legal process underway. However, both Christina and Francisco said things that might have given the Pences the impression that they were going to try. So during one of the annual visits, Francisco asked one of the children if they wanted to come back and live with him and Christina.

Something Christina says was a mistake. And as the conversation around visitations became more and more fractious, Christina did offer to take the children back. She also told the Pences that she and Francisco would have a case to do so via the courts, but that they wouldn't go down that route as long as the pences communicated more openly and honestly with them. I can't help but wonder that neither side is telling the full truth here. I mean they're each claiming the other side is wrong, they're both claiming to be acting in the children's best interests but they're also both making decisions that seem really questionable.

I think the answer probably lies somewhere in the middle. I mean, like any conflict, both sides have a narrative and their own version of events. They've both got good reasons to spin the truth, right? Chris Pence wants to mitigate his crime and Christina and Francisco want to see their children again. They haven't seen them since May 2021, four months before Chris Pence was arrested. So as journalists we have to try and pick our way through these competing motives and to me it boils down to this. On the one hand we can see that there really were concerns about the children's welfare right and those concerns were not just expressed by the Pences. On the other hand I don't think the children were at imminent risk of being returned to their birth parents.

Like there was no legal process underway and the children were thousands of miles away in a remote location which Christina and Francisco didn't even have the address for. So for me, the idea that Chris Pence did this because he was scared his children might get returned to their birth parents just doesn't make sense. Instead I think the core trigger here is anger. We know that the adoption created a lot of stress in the Pence family home and that Chris and Michelle believed those problems were being exacerbated by their children's ongoing contact with the birth parents. And as this dispute ratcheted up, Christina says Chris Pence would often leave her emails unanswered.

When she asked him why, he told her it was because they made him so angry that he needed to take time to calm down. And that anger, to me, far better explains Chris Pence's actions than any of the other things we've heard in this story. To me, it seems very rich for Chris Pence to sit there and say that he was acting with the children's best interests at heart,

when literally in the order messages, he acknowledges the possibility that Christina and Francisco could be killed in a situation which could cause their other children harm. He's not even thinking about their welfare at all. So how can he possibly claim that he's some kind of great patriarchal protector here? I mean, and ultimately, this was something that Chris Pence was trying to do to give satisfaction to Chris Pence, like not to protect those kids.

There is no possible world where the best option for these children is having their biological parents murdered. Like, to have not thought about the horrendous emotional psychological toll it would take on the kids, let alone, you know, the horrific act of against their parents. It just seems so short-sighted and blinkered and like somebody who was not thinking clearly. Chris Pence, to me, brewed a kind of anger inside him that evolved over time into a hatred. And that hatred ultimately gave way to this fantasy about having Christina and Francisco killed.

So what happened to Chris Pence in the end? Like, did his explanation, the one that we think anyway, was so problematic, I mean, did that actually help mitigate the sentence in the end? It didn't make a big difference. He pled guilty and in the end he was sentenced to seven years in prison. Now that's substantially below the 10-year maximum, but still a hefty sentence. I think the most remarkable thing to me, Caroline, is that the kill list is almost like the neatest part of this whole story. I mean, Chris has admitted to it, he's been convicted for it,

his family is standing by him after that conviction, and Christina has said that she's forgiven him for doing it. Has the actual source of the conflict changed? Well, the five children remain with the Pence's, and Christina and Francisco are pushing to have their visitations reinstated. In the meantime, they're still trying to involve themselves in the adopted children's lives. And the only way they have of contacting them right now is via an email. The children still live with Michelle Pence, so Christina sends out a regular newsletter to her children, and we've seen one of them. The email is full of pictures of the three

remaining children, the eldest boy who stayed behind and who's now a teenager, as well as the two toddlers who were born after the other ones were given away. The words from the email are read by an actor. May began with our second round of hatching chicks. We named the fluffiest one Sunshine because she's a pretty yellow. The pictures paint this portrait of a kind of idyllic family life, right?

The kids are being showered with love and cuddles. They're playing with baby chicks, dressing up in costumes. We wrapped up our study of Ephesians and the preschool class dressed up in the armor of God. We hope that you are enjoying springtime as much as we are. We love you very much. And I can't help but think about what that must be like to receive for the adopted children.

You know, there's a couple of ways of interpreting this email and, you know, they're both valid. On the one hand, it shows a family who love their children and who I think are both valid. On the one hand it shows a family who love their children and who I think are motivated by a sincere desire to have contact with the five children they gave away and it's possible the children find that comforting. But on the other hand I can also see how receiving an email like this could be upsetting. One of the photos shows that Christina is pregnant again, expecting her ninth child,

and it must be difficult for the adopted children to see siblings they hardly know being showered with love after they themselves were given away. What's clear is that Christina is signalling very clearly to her adopted children that she wants to be deeply involved in their lives, and that also means being involved with the pences. So what we have then is a situation that is completely irreconcilable. We have two sides who want utterly different things,

but also two sides who are never really gonna be able to escape each other. I mean, they were brought together almost by chance but now they're never going to be able to fully separate for the rest of their lives and it's that connection that the full implications of this story and I think of the kill list will be fully felt. You're going to have Christina and Francisco who amazingly will still have some sort of contact in the years ahead with the man who tried to have them killed. They might even meet him in the future face to face but then also and this is where the impact I think will last the longest you have the children in the

middle of all of this. Children who are going to have to live their whole lives now with this knowledge that their adoptive father tried to have their biological parents murdered. And it seems clear to me that this story isn't over, it's not even close to being over. And it won't be until the questions at the heart of all of this have at least some sort of answer. Who is really acting in the best interests of the children? What do those children want? And how are they ever going to come to terms with the choices their parents have made?

On the next episode of Kill List, a young woman in Bath, England discovers that someone, somewhere is watching her. And it's up to her to work out just who her stalker could be. He still continued to send texts and threats saying things like, you shouldn't have gone to the police, we'll never leave you alone. I felt so unsafe. And I knew someone close to me is trying to do something seriously wrong here.

trying to do something seriously wrong here. Before you go, tell us about yourself by filling out a short survey at Wandery.com slash survey. From Wandery and Novel, this is Kill List. Kill List is hosted by me, Carmilla. The reporter for this episode is Caroline Thornham and it was produced and written by our series producer, Tom Wright. Kill List is also produced by J.K. Tyovic, with additional production by Anna Sinfield. Our assistant producer is Amalia Sordand, and our researchers are Megan Oynke and Lina Chang. Additional research from Chris Monteiro. For Wandery, our senior producer is Mandy Gorinstein. Fact-checking by Fendel Fulton. Our managing producers are Cherie Houston, Sarah Tobin and Charlotte Wolfe for Novel.

Sarah Mathers is our managing producer and Callum Plues is our senior managing producer for Wandery. Original music by Skyler Gerdeman and Martin Linebelle. Music supervision by Nicholas Alexander, Max O'Brien and Caroline Thornton. Sound design and mixing by Gareth Young. Additional engineering by Daniel Kempson. For novel, Willard Foxton is creative director of development. Our executive producers are Sean Glynn, Max O'Brien and Craig Strachan for novel. Executive producers for Wandery are Marshall Louis and Erin O'Flaherty.