Kill List - Cold Call | 2

Episode Date: October 8, 2024

Binge episodes 1-6 and weekly new episodes of Kill List by signing up for Wondery+ on Apple or Spotify.Carl tries to warn the people on the list. How do you tell a total stranger that someone wants them dead?Featuring additional reporting from Franziska Engelhardt at Podcast-Schmiede and additional research from Bellingcat.Follow the Kill List on the Wondery App or wherever you get your podcasts. You can binge all episodes early and ad-free on Wondery+. Join Wondery+ in the Wondery App, Apple Podcasts or Spotify. Start your free trial by visiting www.wondery.com/links/kill-list now. See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Wondery Plus subscribers can binge all episodes of K.O.L.L.I.S.T. early and ad-free. Join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. Oh, I just wanted a quiet life. I know, man. I hear you. I hear you. Okay, well... I've been dreading this moment. Right, let's do it. Alright.

I hate cold calling people. I don't know why, whether it's because I'm British, or just awkward, or that I don't like talking to strangers, but I really can't stand it. And this is, quite literally, the most awkward conversation of my life. I need to tell the person on the other end of the phone that someone is trying to kill them. Hello there, can I speak to *** please? Yes, me, hold on. Hello, it's me. Who are you?

My name is Carl Miller. I'm a journalist. I'm hoping you might be able to help me on a story that I'm working on. OK. I'm starting with a man in Canada. I can't tell you his name, but someone on the dark web has paid around $5,500 for his murder. I've already reported the details to the British police, along with the other kill orders that we found.

They told me they passed the information over to Interpol, the international policing organisation. But it's now been six weeks since I've heard from them. Those six weeks of silence have been terrifying. If something were to happen to this man in Canada, I need to know that I've done everything I can to warn him. It's to do with scam sites on the internet, although it's kind of reasonably sensitive in nature.

So I wonder whether I could give you my email address and you can let me know when would be a good time for us to talk. So what is the subject? Is it like the scams on the internet? Yeah, well, we've been doing an investigation into various scam sites on the internet. We've come across some information which we believe might relate to you. So we just kind of want to take you through the information.

Related to me personally or related to my profession or what? Related to you personally. Oh, okay. No, I'm not interested. Thank you. Yeah, not a great start. I was awful.

And he's just the first of many more people on the kill list. I have to figure out a way to not only warn them, but to be believed, or more people could end up dead. From Wondery and Novel, I'm Carl Miller, and this is Kill List. Episode 2, Cold Call. By July 2020, my source, the hacker Chris Montero, had identified nearly 600 active users on the Hitman for Hire site. And there were new kill

orders coming in all the time. I needed to bring some kind of order to the list, or I knew it would overwhelm me. But looking around, there's no precedent for how you handle darknet murder orders. So Chris and I and a team of journalists and producers invented our own workflow a triage system We called it The Pipeline My suggestion for a way of prioritising I think it should just be threat to life I don't think we should do it by investigatory potential

Step one We narrow the cases down to the most dangerous threats Not everyone who messages the assassination site ends up paying for a hit. So we started with the people who were actually putting up money to kill a specific target. By parsing blockchain data, I have found the actual wallets in question, which I would then use back to trace to the original transactions. Chris could access the back end of the Hitman website. That meant he could see not only the orders, but also the payments.

They were nearly always in Bitcoin. Chris would look for a transaction of exactly the same amount at the same time on the public ledger of all Bitcoin transactions, known as a blockchain. If it all tallied, we had a confirmed payment, a crime and a serious threat to life. Step two was to track down the victim. What's our level of confidence? It sounds like we're on the cusp of thinking that this is definitely, definitely her, but there's a few kind of flags

in the way. I mean, I put it at like 80%. Brenna Smith was our open source intelligence expert. Her job was to make absolutely sure we had the right person and to find a way to contact them. When I looked on Facebook, I was able to find a woman who had similar eyes, but she had a Snapchat filter over it, but it was similar eyes of like almond shape, big and brown. And so from there, I just kind of obsessively stalked her Facebook She had similar eyes, but she had a Snapchat filter over it, but it was similar eyes of like almond shape, big and brown. And so from there, I just kind of obsessively stalked her Facebook and tried to find other instances of her online based on the information I had.

Brenna is one of a team of volunteers who joined us from the open source intelligence outfit Bellingcat. They're magicians at scouring the internet for information and pulling together often scattered details. It's kind of a mindfuck looking for these people because I feel like I'm hunting them too when somebody else also wants them to be hunted. Step three was to figure out the least damaging way of breaking the news. The man who could help us was clinical psychologist Dr. Howard Fine. When you first drop the information, it's like pulling the carpet from under their feet and then feeling quite lost and disabled. Learning that someone wants you dead is a horrific thing to hear. So I need to do it as sensitively and as gently as I possibly can. The first few sentences

shouldn't say that you're on the kill list, but it could be something about the dark web, and we're aware that there's some information about you on the dark web. Howard helped me write a script. The plan was to keep it vague and set up a time and a place to call back. Somewhere the target felt safe, and preferably somewhere they could be alone. That would be when I gave them the details. The whole way through, you want to give them a sense of control

and for them to set the limits with you. The conversation was designed to gradually put them back in the driving seat. Towards the end, I'd be asking them what they wanted us to do, to help them to get to a place of safety, perhaps, and if they wanted, to involve law enforcement. What we want to do as much as possible is to manage the immediate sense of risk and then to move on from that and to enable them we're now giving you control by helping you make decisions that was the pipeline identify the biggest threats find find the targets, prepare the script, all leading up to step four, the cold call.

Right, be brave, Carl. Plus. One, six, three. Hello, am I talking to... Hello, am I talking to... Hello, am I talking to... How is that? She's just hung up on me. Call after call, I can't even get through to the person I'm trying to reach. Hi there, I'm looking to speak to an either...

I will phone back. You've dialed an incorrect number. Please check the number and try again. That was literally the same number as i just dialed that's taiwan code okay so plus eight eight six I mean, I literally don't know what I'm in the queue for. What is... Like, am I... Am I going to leave a message?

Like, am I... Oh. Hello? Hi there, my name is Carmilla. I'm a journalist. My number is... Thanks very much. And the chances of that ever being responded to are absolutely nil. Then there are the calls when someone does pick up.

No, I don't want any information. I'm trying to give you information. No. I don't care. I'm sorry. Okay, well, thanks for your time anyway. Do give me a phone back if you'd like more information. Would we be able to arrange a time to be able to talk to you at greater length about that?

Okay. So you don't... After a few more calls like this, my producer starts to get restless. I do think he could have told him he was in more danger than he, like, somebody, you know, was threatening to harm you. I'm doing my best. If you want to do the next one... No, I understand, I understand.

You know, be my guest. I just think you need to put a little more urgency onto them. He suggests we try the first person again, the man in Canada. At least he didn't hang up right away. I don't know. That's such a difficult one. I don't, I kind of like, he definitely didn't want to speak to us. Yeah, but I think we should let him know that he's in danger.

All right, I'll phone him back one more time and see if he picks up. Hello. Hello there, can I speak to Mr... This time I'm going to forget the carefully planned script and get straight to the point. Just, I understand you don't want to work with me on the story, however, I'm actually duty-bound to say that the information that we have might relate to you being in danger,

so I'm kind of duty-bound as a journalist to disclose it to you if you'd like me to. What? Actually, I don't have time for this even. Even if you're asking me for a survey that has something to my relationship to the job or to professional work. No, it's not a survey.

I'm a journalist. We've come across information which indicates that you might be in danger. I'm in danger? Yes. Thank you for trying to protect me. Keep me to face my dangers. Thank you.

Okay. Thank you, bye. Goodbye. Wow. Leave me to face my dangers. He's not having any of it. I'm very surprised by that. I mean, if someone phoned me up saying you might be in danger,

I would want to know what it was regarding. Yeah. Even a direct approach isn't enough to convince people. And worse than that, I am rubbish at this. See, this is the cold call doesn't fucking work. People think it's scams. I've been so worried that delivering this news might cause people to completely freak out

or have a panic attack. But instead, they all just assumed I was some sort of weird scam artist, like those people who call you up asking for your bank details. What I'm saying is just so outlandish that people assume I must have some kind of ulterior motive. The only thing that makes me feel a little better

is that these cases are already with the police. I've done that part. I just don't know if it's enough. Maybe I'm not helping anyone. Maybe I should just leave it with the police. I've done that part. I just don't know if it's enough. Maybe I'm not helping anyone. Maybe I should just leave it to the police. But then Chris sends over more orders. This woman has caused a lot of problems for myself and others.

Please could you help me resolve this for the best cost? Murder needed. Please let me know if you can help with my budget. I would like to know if it's possible to kill him at the cost. Basically, there will be no link to me. Death as accident. My producers and I spend hours debating what the right thing to do is. The question is, how do we step in their lives?

To be honest, I have absolutely no idea right now. There's no good way to do this. It's sort of like getting into the ocean when it's cold. You just have to go right in. We realize there is one thing we haven't tried yet. Something even more direct. Something that can't be ignored. If they won't pick up the phone,

if they won't listen to a cold call, there's only one thing for it. We need to track the targets down and speak to them face to face. There are few things as terrifying as being buried alive. And that fear became a reality for 20-year-old college student Barbara Mackle when she was kidnapped. Her captors took her to a remote area where they buried her in a specially constructed wooden container and threatened that if her wealthy father didn't deliver a $500,000 cash ransom,

they would leave her to slowly suffocate in her subterranean prison. Were her captors ever caught? Well, in season 37 of Against the Odds, we dig into one of the most notorious cases of the 1960s and the aftermath. On Against the Odds, host adventurers Mike Corey and Cassie de Picol share stories of survival and resilience, with true stories that make you feel as though you're living these experiences with our heroes as they endure beyond their limits. Follow Against the Odds on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts.

You can listen to Against the Odds early and ad-free right now by joining Wondery Plus. The first problem with talking in person to the targets is a big one. It's 2020 and the world is deep into COVID lockdown. The murder orders are spread all over the world and leaving the country myself is completely out of the question. That's where Alex comes in. Holy shit. What the fuck have I gotten myself into? I'm juggling calls in different time zones

to reach out to freelance journalists near the people being targeted. Besides Alex, there's Jonathan in Holland. Quite an interesting journalistic assignment. There's Esperanza in Spain. What has she done to provoke that someone wants to kill her? And Franziska in Switzerland. You have no idea what's the story behind this woman. The only question is, if you guys have a standard

approach to this. That is a good question. So let's go through that process. Could you share? I lay out the plan for them. It'll be their job to approach the target and see if they're willing to speak to me on a call having been over it so many times now i know the words by heart we kind of don't want it to be so jarring that we we stay just cold straight off hi you're on a kill list someone wants to kill you. But on the other hand, we also do need to try and convey, you know, a genuine fear for her safety and that we would like to speak to her in a fairly urgent way.

That's the kind of balancing act, I suppose, that we have to try and navigate. Then I'll tell the victim about the order following the psychologist-approved script. We'll give them as much information as we can about our investigation and what it means for them. We need to convey the gravitas at the same time as not doing it in a way which is traumatising Man, what a world we live in

Then we'll let the targets decide what happens next We can help them contact local law enforcement or do it ourselves immediately if they prefer We also have Howard on standby for counselling if they need it. Looking ahead, the plan is to keep talking with them. We'll give them updates if any new messages appear and we'll continue to engage with the police and help the investigation in any way we can. It's a vague plan, but it's the best we can come up with

in such a short space of time. I have no idea what the freelancers we've hired are going to say. We're asking them to physically step into situations that were best unknown, at worst, extremely dangerous. We don't know why these people ended up on this list. There's even a chance that the targets themselves could be dangerous. Like, why would somebody spend so much money on someone's life? Why would somebody be a target of that calibre?

I know it's a frightening proposition and one our freelancers have every right to say no to. And yet. I think it definitely need to go out there and check it out. If we're gonna help somebody then it's more than okay

glad y'all reached out and glad to be a part of it alright the new plan is in place and it's time to test it out in Switzerland

it's a a cold foggy autumn day and it's in a neighbourhood that does not smell of a lot of money at all. It's late November 2020, three weeks since we first saw this particular kid order. Franziska Engelhardt is parked by the side of the road in a suburb near the airport.

First, when you told me about the case, I thought, oh, this is definitely going to be in an area where the rich people live. But no, this is absolutely not. So I'm curious of whom I can expect. I mean, I thought when we thought initially we were getting into this, maybe they're all going to be gangland or organised crime, but it's not. The target is a woman we're going to be calling Elena. And the customer placing the hit goes by the alias Nordwart.

Name, Elena. Address, Switzerland. Car, see pics on Facebook. Bitcoin will follow. We've traced the payment for her murder and know it's around $7,000. It doesn't take long for Eura, the website admin, to respond. Can you please tell us what kind of accident do you think would be more okay? A car accident?

Or maybe robbery gone wrong? Is she suffering of any medical conditions that could help us do the job easier? Maybe heart problems or something? And we can use some untraceable drugs to make it look like natural death. Hi, a car accident or a robbery go wrong is okay. Can you do the job in the next two weeks? The job will be done in about a week. I will send you updates soon.

Using the order, we know a lot about Elena. We know her age. We know what car she drives. We've seen her holiday photos. She looks, at least, like a completely ordinary woman. But soon, all being well, we will be face to face with her, with a message that in all probability is going to completely change her life. It might even save her life, but only if she believes me. All right, have you got any final thoughts? How are feeling i'm pretty tense like i i don't know what to expect

just throw myself into this now and and try to be very friendly like i am very friendly but i hope she's friendly too like of course these are also concerns but i'm going there and i'll let you know whether she answered or not well we'll put all of our numbers in signal you can try any of them we're all here okay give me at least ten minutes. All right, good luck. OK. I stay on the Zoom call with my producers, waiting. Ten minutes pass, no news.

Twenty minutes, still nothing. I go to grab some water, then... a message from Franziska. So, our Swiss reporter, after a nail-biting, extremely nervous 20-minute silence, has just texted us to say that she's inside. She's just preparing the audio gear, and we are about to, for the first time, come face to face with one of the targets on the list. This is it.

The moment I've been building towards for months now. I scramble to dig out the script I've prepared. Franziska texts that she and Elena are going to join the call. I sit down and... There is Elena, appearing on my screen. How are you doing? Oh, is it... Are you talking to me? I am. Can you hear me? I recognise her instantly from the photo in the order.

It's an uncanny sense of déjà vu, actually, like when you see someone famous unexpectedly and for a moment you think you know them. Elena peers at me through the screen. She's in her 60s with brown hair and a pair of rimless glasses sitting on a sofa in her home. Yeah, OK. I'm sorry to disturb you like this.

My name's Carl and I'm a journalist. We're all working... This is the moment that everything has been leading up to. And now that it's here, my hands are shaking. How on earth do I tell this woman? Someone wants you dead. I fumble through my script as I try and calmly explain to Elena just what on earth the kill list is. The important thing to say is that they are apparently murder-for-hire sites,

but they're in fact actually scams. I stop for a moment and await for Elena's response. She just looks at me. So they never send any hit people out to actually commit any violence. But on the other hand, there are people that don't know that, that use the sites to apparently take out orders. Really? Yes.

It all sounds extremely odd, doesn't it? Yeah, it does, yeah. Elena doesn't seem to understand the gravity of the situation, so I plough on. Sorry, there's no easy way of really saying this. We've come across some information which might mean that someone had put some information regarding you on the site. Elena's face is impassive. I wonder if she's going into shock.

Yeah, I'm actually not really surprised. This is not the reaction I'd expected. Really? In what way? I'm having an ugly divorce. It's going on for about three years now. And, you know, there's money involved, quite a lot of money. And my husband actually doesn't want to pay it, so I'm not really surprised. So we have our first suspect, Elena's husband.

I start to sketch out more details for Elena. I tell her about the site and that the price paid for her killing has now reached $7,000. I mean, $7,000 is nothing. Nobody's going to kill someone for $7,000. No, I mean, that's right. But what this person has done, it's a crime, of course. So what we can do is work with you if you'd like to disclose this to the police. We wanted to talk to you first so that you can tell us how you want us to handle all this are you are you are you like 100 positive that you you think you know who it is yeah i can't be anybody else i mean i haven't got any enemies not that i know of so far. He's quite computer savvy,

so I wouldn't put it past him that he knows how things like that work. Can I just ask how you're feeling throughout all of this? I mean, it this is clearly information that that it doesn't come as news to you um no I don't think he will go that far uh but he you know in the beginning three years ago he had me followed and you know all things like that so um in the end actually I thought you know he's got weapons at home and I thought if he's going to do something he'll do it himself. What Elena is saying is so monstrous but she says it so casually. Is he nearby where you and Francesca are now?

He lives in the next town. Okay. It's about six, seven kilometres. If he wanted to, Elena's estranged husband could be at her door within minutes. Do you feel in danger? No, I actually don't feel in danger. You know, I'm not, you know,

the kind of type. Not really. Okay. But if you're going to forward that stuff to the police, I wouldn't mind, actually. Okay, so we certainly can. We'll disclose that all today. Throughout our conversation, Elena remains superhumanly unflappable.

She isn't even going to change her plans for the evening. I'm going to meet a friend later on and she will be very interested in hearing that because she lives next to him. She lives next to him? Yeah, three houses down, yeah. Oh my God. So, yeah, going to be an interesting evening we make a plan to pass the order to the local police force

right away perhaps we can talk whenever convenient over the next week or so um just to check back in for 15 or 20 minutes yes yeah sure thank you so much bye see you. After Elena hangs up, I sit and stare at where her face had just been on my screen. Wow, well, that was honestly one of the most nerve-wracking conversations I think I've ever had. Telling someone that someone's tried to kill them is absolutely awful. I was like stammering and, oh, God. This is just not a normal job.

People do not have to do this kind of thing. For weeks, I've been trying to reach the targets on the kill list, trying to get them to believe me when I say they're in danger. For the first time, I've managed to do it. I'm pretty sure Elena doesn't think I'm a scammer. But on the other hand, she seems incredibly relaxed about the whole situation, despite the fact she knows exactly who could want her dead. So we have a prime suspect, her estranged husband.

There's a clear motive He needs Elena dead in order to avoid having to pay out on their divorce I feel worse now than I did before the call How long will it be before he realises that he's been scammed? And when he does Will he take matters into his own hands? And it gets worse After I finish talking with Elena, I check in with Chris to see if Nordwand has sent any new messages. He has. 23rd of November. Okay, last

chance. I need about three days to organize the Bitcoin. Please confirm that you can do the job in five days after I send the Bitcoin. 25th of November. Hi, I sent you the Bitcoin. Please confirm that you start the job. 1st of December. Hi, I sent you the Bitcoin. Please confirm and confirm that you do the job in the next five days. As each day passes, we watch as Nordwand gets more and more frustrated. Just warning the victims doesn't make them safe. Until Nordwand is caught, Elena's life is in danger. Prime members can listen ad-free on Amazon Music. Before you go, tell us about yourself by filling out a short survey at wandry.com slash survey. From Wandry and Novel, this is episode two of Kill List.

Kill List is hosted by me, Kyle Miller. It was written by me, Caroline Thornham, and Tom Wright. Our lead producer is Caroline Thornham. Our producer is Tom Wright. For Wondery, our story editor is Chris Siegel and our senior producer is Russell Finch. Our assistant producer is Amalia Sortland

and our researchers are Megan O'Yinka and Lena Chang. Additional research from Chris Montero and from Anik Mosu fuka postma and brenna smith at bellingcat additional reporting by francisca engelhardt from podcast schmieda esperanza escrobano jonathan gruber and alexander ritchie our consulting psychologist is dr howard fine fact checking by fendor Fulton. Our managing producers are Cherie Houston, Sarah Tobin,

and Charlotte Wolfe for novel, and Lata Pundia for Wondery. Original music by Skylar Gerderman and Martin Linnebel. Music supervision by Nicholas Alexander, Max O'Brien, and Caroline Thornham. Sound design and mixing by Nicholas Alexander. Additional engineering by Daniel Kempson.

For novel, Willard Foxton is creative director of development. Our executive producers are Sean Glynn, Austin Mitchell, Max O'Brien and Craig Strachan for novel. Executive producers for Wanderie are George Lavender, Marshall Louis and Jen Sargent. When you're done with the first six episodes, I go deeper into the kill list, revealing never-before-told stories of more victims.

New episodes roll out weekly. Thank you for listening.