Killer Stories with Harvey Guillén - "Bible John"

Episode Date: October 16, 2017

Glasgow’s Barrowland Ballroom was meant to be a place for people to dance and enjoy themselves. Instead, Bible John, one of Scotland’s most infamous serial killers, used the dance hall as a hunting ground. Vanessa and Greg investigate the motives of this mysterious murderer who may have used the Bible as justification to target menstruating woman.  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

This episode is brought to you by ZipRecruiter. Whether you're hiring for a role or searching for a killer, the hunt can be exhausting. When detectives looked and searched to find any kind of evidence to find the person they were looking for, like Jack the Ripper, the Golden State Killer, the Unit Bomber. It's tedious work to find what you're looking for. So, if you're hiring, I've got news for you.

You can skip the lengthy investigation and the tiresome process of sorting through hundreds of resumes, days. Just use ZipRecruiter. Try for free at ZipRecruiter.com slash killers because not only does ZipRecruiter have the technology to match you with potential candidates quickly, it also just added a new feature that pushes candidates who are qualified and interested in your role to the top of the list. They can even tell you why they're interested, making it easier for you to get a sense of who they are. Cut through the standard and get to the standouts. ZipRecruiter. Four out of five employers who post on ZipRecruiter get a quality candidate within the first day.

And now, you can try it for free at ZipRecruiter.com slash killers. That's ZipRecruiter. Meet your match on ZipRecruiter. This episode is brought to you by Shopify. Bonnie and Clyde, the Lonely Hearts Killers, Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid. These are infamous criminal duels. But you don't need to break any laws to find your perfect business partner because you have Shopify. It's the commerce platform that can help you with literally everything, website design, marketing, shipping, and more. So start your business today with the best partner, Shopify, and get that. Sign up for your $1 per month trial today at Shopify.com slash killers. That's Shopify.com slash killers. Own it all. Pay off your home, travel for life, Drive a Ferrari. In celebration of the world premiere of the Monopoly Big Board Buckslot

machine by Aristocrat Gaming, Yamava Resort and Casino at San Manuel is giving one person a $1.6 million dream package. The biggest prize in Yamava's history. Club Serrano members can earn daily instant prizes and secure a spot in the finale May 29th. Don't pass go and own it all. Only at Yamava, celebrating its 40th anniversary. You win? Details at yamava.com must be 21-20. Please gamble responsibly. Monopoly is a trademark of Hasbro. Hasbro is not a sponsor of this promotion. Due to the graphic nature of this killer's crimes, listener discretion is advised. This episode includes dramatizations and discussions of murder and assault that some people may find offensive. We advise extreme caution for children under 13.

A witness sketch of his face became the most well-known portrait in Scotland, and his case remains the largest manhunt in Scottish police history. Thousands upon thousands of man-hours were spent tracking him down, and yet he was never caught. But why? If the police poured so many resources into tracking down Bible John, was he never caught? What makes it so hard to catch a serial killer? Well, we know there are plenty of reasons a serial killer could be caught. Sometimes it's because of a small or strange slip-up. Like with the Scottish killer Dennis Nilsson, who burned his victim's bodies and flushed them down the toilet and was caught after a plumber he hired found bits of human flesh in the pipes.

Sometimes it's because the serial killer sends letters to the police and press and ends up revealing too much information. As was the case with killer Dennis Rader, aka the BTK murderer, who switched to floppy disks instead of handwritten letters for communication and was traced back to his house using the information on the floppy disk. But there are also killers that communicated with the police and were never caught, like the Zodiac killer. And that's where the question lies. what makes them so hard to catch? Is it intelligence? Is it luck? Unfortunately, there aren't any studies on serial killers that aren't caught, seeing as there aren't any uncought serial killers to interview.

Unfortunate, indeed. Of course, we can look at some traits they share. Hmm, for example. Well, serial killers that go uncought are typically organized, rather than unorganized killers. They're also usually the ones with some of the shortest runtimes, anywhere from a couple of months to a couple of years. If you're careful with how you plan your crime

and never kill enough to get sloppy and leave evidence behind, then it's less likely that police will be able to catch you. Is that the idea? Exactly. And these two key points may be exactly the reason that Scotland's most sought-after killer was never caught. Hi, I'm Greg Paulson, and this is serial killers. Today, we're going to look into one of the most famous serial killers

in Scottish history, a man by the name of Bible John. I'm here with my co-host Vanessa Richardson. Vanessa is not a licensed psychologist or psychiatrist, but she's done a lot of research for this show. Hi, everyone. We'd like to ask a quick favor. Would you leave a five-star review of serial killers on your favorite podcast directory?

It seems so simple, but it really helps us out. And don't forget to subscribe while you're there because a new episode comes out every Monday. You can also find us on Facebook and Instagram at Parcast and on Twitter at Parcast Network. A quick note. In this week's episode, all quotes will be performed by actors. However, these lines are quoted from primary research sources and presented exactly as those people stated them. Now let's get back to the twisted psyche of Bible John. Bible John was a short-lived serial killer in Glasgow, Scotland in the late 1960s. He seduced, raped, and killed three women, leaving their bodies on the street to be found by passers by. While on the surface, the case seems almost normal for a serial killer. There was something a little more disturbing

about the way he left the scene. Each woman had been stripped, strangled with her own stockings, and had a menstrual pad placed deliberately near or on her body. Well, that's certainly a unique touch. Though the crime was brutal, Glasgow was unfortunately no stranger to horrific serial killers. About 15 years prior, in the mid-1950s, Glasgow was shocked by the gruesome murders of serial killer

Peter Manuel, who was generally still considered to be Scotland's worst serial killer. That's the killer who was nicknamed the Beast of Berkinshaw, right? Yeah, that's right. Manuel shot and killed at least nine people over the course of two years. The murders seemed without rhyme or reason and sent the police into a long and confused investigation that eventually resulted in the killer's arrest. But perhaps the most chilling part was the poem that Peter Manuel wrote midway into the trial. I murdered Isabella Cook, and young Anne Nelands too.

Shot the Watts and shot the Smarts. And Sidney Dunn, I slew. I did these deeds without a doubt. My guilt was found by law. I'm Peter Anthony Manuel, the rat of Berkinshaw. But Glasgow's murderous demons don't stop at Peter Manuel and Bible John. Other famous Glasgow killers include cannibals, poisoners, bludgeoners, and rapists. In fact, Glasgow has even been called the murder capital of the

Western world, at one point averaging about 80 violent crimes per 10,000 people, or about 8,000 violent crimes a year. But despite all that, Bible John still stands out as perhaps the most enigmatic serial killer Glasgow has ever known. So what made Bible John so different? So much so that he would become a household name and front-page story in nearly every newspaper Prince Scotland. And what exactly was going on in that twisted killer's mind? Let's start at the beginning. February 23rd, 1968, a frosty day in Glasgow. Maris Goodman kissed his wife goodbye and headed to work. But outside, he found a sight much more chilling than the weather. The body of a young woman laid in the street blocking a garage lockup. She was completely naked, no clothes in sight. Mr. Goodman

described what he saw. quote, I thought she was just a sleeping drunk, so I nudged her with my foot, but it was like touching a block of ice. I knew instinctively that it was a dead person, unquote. The person was identified as Patricia Docker, a 25-year-old Glasgow woman who had gone out dancing the night before and never returned home. She had been raped, strangled, and killed. Her body placed carefully on the pavement.

Her head was tilted deliberately to the right, and a used menstrual napkin was placed near her body. That's a pretty vivid scene right there. Yeah, indeed it was. A thorough research of the nearby area found Patricia's bracelet, part of a watch case, and her handbag discarded in the river cart. A further police investigation came to the conclusion

that Patricia was likely picked up by her killer at the Barreland Ballroom, a popular Glasgow dance parlor frequented by young men and women. The police interviewed as many people as they could about the night of Patricia's death. But the only clue they got was that one of the men Patricia had been dancing with had light red hair. After that, the trail went cold.

Patricia Docker had left behind not just grieving family and friends, but a four-year-old son who she had been raising as a single mother. It was a shock to the community. She was a mother, a nurse, and an upstanding citizen, and now she was dead. The family hoped the police would find Patricia's killer, but the investigation was a dead. all trace of the killer vanished. Until another woman turned up dead a little over a year later.

On August 17th, 32-year-old Jemima McDonald's partly clothed body was found by a group of children at a run-down tenement near her apartment. One of the children who found the body later recalled. I had seen drunken tramp sleeping in that block. It wasn't fit for human habitation, but desperate people used it for their own devices. It wasn't normal to see a woman sleeping in the... rooms, though, I know people who did see couples having sex in there. I didn't recognize the woman lying in the flat. None of us did. At first, I thought it wasn't a real person. It looked like some

sort of Taylor's dummy or model. It was only when someone said it was a woman and she was bleeding on her face that we realized something was different. When I saw the body, the woman was laid face down. She had some of her clothes pulled up and some were torn and ripped. Her head was facing. to one side and her hair was covering part of it. I remember thinking she looked like she was sleeping. Jemima's sister, Margaret, who had been watching Jemima's children while she was out dancing at the Beryland, had been out searching for her that morning. Gemima hadn't come home as planned, and though she was known to occasionally pass the time with different men here or there, she never went off without making sure her kids would be taken care of. Margaret heard rumors from

the children of a body in the derelict tenements and went to take her own. look. Afraid it might be her missing sister, and unfortunately for her it was. When Margaret arrived at the scene, there was a crowd of people surrounding Jemima's body. Margaret described what had happened. Quote, she was strangled with her stocking. Her face, it was bloody, beaten, end quote. Just as with Patricia Docker, Jemima McDonald had been menstruating at the time of her death. And just like Patricia, Jamima's handbag was missing from the scene. Though the police searched the surrounding area thoroughly, it was never found. There were more witnesses this time that saw Jemima with her alleged killer,

but yet again, the only detail that they were able to pin down was that the killer was young, tall, and had reddish hair, though a friend of Jemima later said, quote, The weekend Mima was murdered, she had been busy and was out jigging at the Barreland on Thursday, Friday, as well as the Saturday night. Some folk who knew her said they had seen her with a new man. He was handsome looking by all accounts, and she seemed to be captivated by him. Such a nice-looking man, well-groomed and smartly dressed, was rare to most of us in the East End, unquote.

It seems like we're starting to get a bit of a clearer image of our serial killer. A murderer who targeted young women. Specifically mothers. Right. Mothers who were also menstruating. You know, that's a pretty specific taste. Yeah, there's a pretty big sense of cruelty involved in these two kills as well. Seduction, rape, strangulation, and murder.

Not to mention leaving their bodies nude or partly nude out in the public. It almost feels like he was trying to shame them somehow. Because they were mothers, but outdancing with other men. I don't think it's as simple as that. I have a few ideas, but I want to hear the rest of the story before I make any concrete conclusions. Of course. The one interesting detail that Jemima's friend noted was that the man Jemima had spent time with at the Barrowland was well-dressed, so much so that he seemed out of place in the venue.

That seems to jump out at you. Well, it seems like it wouldn't be his choice of venue on an ordinary night. Rather, he was probably specifically targeting that location. Perhaps because the type of women he liked frequented that venue, perhaps out of convenience of getting away with crime in such a crowded area, I really wish we could get a little further inside his head. Well, you and the police are about to have your opportunity. The killer's third murder took place less than three months after Jemima's,

and this one was about to crack the case wide open. We'll return to our story in just a moment from the Pardcast Network. Ryan Reynolds here from MintMobil, the message for everyone paying big wireless way too much. Please, for the love of everything good in this world, stop. With Mint, you can get premium wireless for just $15 a month. Of course, if you enjoy overpaying, no judgments, but that's weird. Okay, one judgment.

Anyway, give it a try at mintmobile.com slash switch. Up front payment of $45 for three-month plan, equivalent to $15 per month required. Intro rate first three months only, then full price plan options available. Taxes and fees extra. See full terms at mintmobile.com. And now back to the story. It was to be just another ordinary night out. Helen Puddock and her sister, Jeannie Langford, decided to go out dancing at the famous Barlin Ballroom.

The people knew it had been attached to two murders. it didn't deter the crowds from pouring in. One woman who frequented the venue at the time later stated, quote, that sort of thing always happened to someone else. There was always more to it. It never happened to normal folk, unquote. And that's likely exactly what Helen and Jeannie thought

when they went out that night. Helen's husband was concerned, but mostly because he thought it was inappropriate for a married mother to go out dancing without her husband. Doesn't seem very trusting. Actually, his concerns. did have some validity in them. Thursday nights at the Berlin Ballroom was reserved for over 25's night, or as it was more colloquially called the Grab a Granny Night. It was notorious for being a place

for folks looking for a little extramarital swing to meet. But in the end, her husband must have relented. Indeed he did. He was still worried, of course, so he gave her 10 shillings to catch a taxi back home after the night was over. Little did he know that he would be paying for the taxi that drove her to her death. It was the third murderer in what would soon be known as the Bible John killings. But how did the killer meet his victims and what was he like? The burning question that could not be answered during the investigation of Patricia Docker and Jemima McDonald's murders was finally to have an answer. At the Barland, a man who introduced himself as John asked Helen to dance. Over the course of the night, Helen and John danced and chatted, in between which

they met up with Helen's sister Jeannie and her dance partner. At the end of the night, Helen, Jeannie, and John shared a cab home. But when it came to deciding who would go home first, John insisted that even though he lived near the ballroom, the cab should drop him off last and take Jeannie home first so he could be sure Helen would not be going home on escorted. So he was masquerading as a polite and thoughtful gentleman. He was about to be anything but. The cab dropped Jeannie off as planned. However, Helen never made it back home. Instead of escorting her to her doorstep,

Bible John raped, strangled, and murdered her, just as he did his previous victims. However, this time there was a big difference. Whereas the previous two murders had almost no witnesses and little contact with the killer, Helen's sister Jeannie was the first witness who had spent an entire night with the killer and lived to tell the tale.

and the police were not about to let that go. They pushed a grieving Jeannie to provide the most detailed description possible. Jeannie recalled that he introduced himself as John Templeton or John Sempleson, but couldn't remember the name exactly. She said he was tall, about six foot, red-headed, with front teeth that crossed in the front like a pair of scissors. Jeannie's account of that October night became the basis for the police's investigation for the months to come and colored the public's perception of this miscellaneous.

mysterious and disturbing serial killer that became known as Bible John. Speaking of, how did he get the name Bible John? Well, that was also thanks to Jeannie Puddock's interview with the police. In her interviews, she recounted the taxi ride that she shared with the killer and her soon-to-be-dead sister. During the ride, Jeannie said that Bible John referenced passages in the Bible, specifically relating to women being punished for adultery. That's pretty telling, considering the venue that they had just come from. That's right. It was almost as if he was telling them that it was about to kill one of them.

And it was because of this referencing to the Bible and the fact that the only name the killer had given was John, that the Evening Times journalist John Quinn gave the barrel-in ballroom murderer the moniker Bible John. Hmm, interesting. However, because of this killer's new branding, so to speak, that his connection to religion was likely overestimated. What do you mean? Well, one thing people falsely assume in the case is that Bible John got his name, because he quoted the Bible. However, according to Jeannie's statement, he never directly quoted it. He merely referenced it. Even if he didn't directly quote the Bible, that he brought it up at all is pretty significant, in my opinion. There's a lot we can glean from that.

I completely agree, but... But? But, well, there's something a little peculiar about what Jeannie said Bible John talked about in regards to the Bible. Psychology is all about peculiarities. Lay it on me. Well, Jeannie said that he referenced a story about... a woman being stoned for adultery in the Old Testament. Now there's only one reference to stoning women in the Old Testament in Deuteronomy. I quote,

If any man take a wife and find her not a maid, and the tokens of virginity be not found for the damsel, then they shall bring the damsel to the door of her father's house and all the men of her city shall stone her with stones that she die. End quote. Oh, and one more bit. Quote, if a damsel that is a virgin be betrothed unto a husband and a man finder in the city and lie with her, then ye shall bring them both out unto the gate of that city, and ye shall stone them with stones that they die. The damsel, because she cried not, the man because he hath humbled his neighbor's wife, end quote.

Wow. Yeah. Essentially, a woman was to be stoned for adultery if she was either not a virgin at the time of her marriage or if she was raped while married. married and did not cry out while it was happening. Neither of which seemed related to Bible John's murders. Exactly. What about the New Testament? Maybe Jeannie Misremembered about which part of the Bible it was. Well, that's the thing.

There's a very famous story in the New Testament about a woman being stoned for adultery, John 8. Quote, Jesus returned to the Mount of Olives, but early the next morning he was back again at the temple. A crowd soon gathered, and he sat down and taught them. As he was speaking, the teachers of religious law and the Pharisees brought a woman who had been caught in the act of adultery. They put her in front of the crowd. A man said,

Teacher, this woman was caught in the act of adultery. The law of Moses says to stone her. What do you say? They were trying to trap him into saying something that they could use against him. But Jesus stooped down and wrote in the dust with his finger. They kept demanding an answer. So he stood up again and said, all right, but let the one who has never sinned throw the first stone. When the accusers heard this,

they slipped away one by one, beginning with the oldest, until only Jesus was left in the middle of the crowd with the woman. Then Jesus stood up again and said to the woman, where are your accusers? Did even one of them condemn you? She said, no, Lord. Jesus replied, and neither do I. Go and sin no more. Okay, now that definitely doesn't seem like what Bible John was getting at. The whole moral of that story is forgiveness. Yeah, and if that was the story Bible John was referencing, it certainly doesn't make sense that he would kill these women that he perceived as adulterous, does it?

Unless he believed that he was a man without sin and thus was allowed to throw that proverbial first stone. Even then, what he does is beyond terrible. Rape and murder? Not exactly a Christian-approved course of action, especially considering thou shalt not kill is one of the Ten Commandments. Yeah, so either Jeannie misremembered the actual conversation or Bible John didn't actually know that much about the Bible. Well, that would certainly be a game changer.

Yeah, I think this actually makes a lot of sense. You do? Yeah, stay with me a second here. You see, there have been several surveys and studies done about serial killers who become very religious shortly before their killing spree started. The thought was that their newfound religion caused them to kill. enacting the will of God, so to speak? Exactly. But there's actually an important distinction

that a lot of studies on serial killers and religion don't address. Motivation versus justification. There's a difference between someone reading the Bible and then using those teachings to kill versus someone who has the desire to kill and sees that their notions of the world aligns with some vague notions that are lightly related to the Bible. And you think Bible John was using religion to justify his kills

rather than being motivated by a specific religious will? I can't say for sure, but it is a possibility. The only strange thing about that would be that oftentimes serial killers will use absurd justifications after they've been caught as a means of getting out of a punishment. If he was using religion as a justification rather than motivation, it was all internalized. I don't think that's too odd.

If he had an unquenchable thirst to kill and his fantasy hinged on a specific kind of woman, in this case menstruating mothers, He may have needed some sort of internal justification to make him feel better about his crime. It's okay. They deserve it. Well, that's different from what we've seen with other serial killers, isn't it? Most of whom we've looked at tend to be remorseless killers. In other words, psychopaths.

But that may not be the case with Bible John. Our story will continue in a moment right after the break. Kayak gets my flight, hotel, and rental car right. So I can tune out travel advice that's just plain wrong. Bro, Skycoin, way better than points. Never fly during a Scorpio full moon. Just tell the manager you'll sue. Instant room upgrade.

Stop taking bad travel advice. Start comparing hundreds of sites with Kayak and get your trip right. Kayak, got that right. It's Daredevil. I'm right here. Don't miss the return of Marvel Television's Daredevil born again. So what's next? I'll be liberated.

We're to take this city back. City back. All the new season, now streaming only on Disney Plus. They're hunting us. It's time we started hunting them. I can work with that. That nobody heard of us. This should be tons of fun.

Marvel television's Daredevil, Born Again, now streaming only on Disney Plus. Now our story continues. If Bible John wasn't a psychopath, what was he? It seems like there's a pretty high threshold for jumping to murder, especially serial murder. It's not always psychopathy, although that tends to be the most commonly found psychological condition and studied serial killers. But there are other possibilities.

For instance, there's schizophrenia, which deals with audio or even visual hallucinations or psychosis, which has to do with having an extremely distorted sense of reality. So what about Bible John? Do you think either of these apply to him? It's hard to say, since we can't sit down and talk to him and see what's really going on. But I think if he did show signs of schizophrenia or psychosis, it would have been very obvious to Jeannie. People who aren't attached to reality or suffer from hallucinations

tend not to be able to hold a coherent conversation for very long. But based on what Jeannie said, he had no problem with that and in fact was quite good at it. Well, then if it wasn't psychopathy, schizophrenia, or psychosis, then what was it? Well, it could simply be pent up anger or hatred that stems from something in his past. Do you know the killer Ted Kaczynski?

Well, the Unabomber, of course. He was an American domestic terrorist, who set 16 bombs over the course of 20 years and killed several people. His case was the longest, most expensive serial killer case in the U.S. Well, if you also recall, he was not considered to have psychopathic traits or even any of the more extreme psychological conditions that characterize killers. In the end, it was thought that he killed because he had pent up anger and frustration. What he really wanted was to be in control.

But with the case of Kaczynski, the kills were impersonal. They were bombs set in specific areas, not necessarily targeting specific people. That's quite different than Bible John. Of course I agree with you there, but the point is that there are more ways than one that people are driven to kill, often connected to the way they were raised in childhood. You know, now that you mention it, Bible John did say something pretty strange about the Barrel and Ballroom the night he killed Helen. My father says these places are dens of iniquity. That's definitely a strong statement.

His father tells him that places like the Beraland, where married couples are dancing away from their spouse and people are acting a little freer than they would in their every day, are full of sin. Do you think that has something to do with his murders? I think it has everything to do with his murders. Children are highly impressionable, and if he spent his childhood being taught that promiscuity is sinful, it could definitely have a lasting effect. Considering that he referenced the Bible, he was probably raised religiously conservative. In his mind, a woman acting like this. would be sinful. And yet, he was misinformed about the Bible and decided the best way to deal with the problem was the very anti-Christian method of murder. Yeah, well, like we talked about before, with using the Bible

as a justification rather than a motivation, it seems to me that if he grew up heavily religious, at least one of his parental figures, was aggressively conservative, that it would make it easier for him to use religion as a justification for his actions. Quote, my father said these people are sinners. I know them to be sinners. Therefore, they deserve what I'm going to to do to them, that sort of thing? Exactly. As twisted as it is. You know, while we're in the business of calling out monikers, in addition to not being as religiously knowledgeable as we thought,

Bible John probably wasn't named John either. Seriously? We're really crushing poor journalist John Quinn here. Oh, don't worry, Mr. Quinn. Bible John sounds a heck of a lot better than maybe religious Barlin man. But back to the name. Right. Okay, so after Helen met John, they joined Helen's sister, Jeannie's partner. coincidentally, also a man named John.

The two sisters thought it was pretty funny at the time. It was a common pseudonym at the ballroom, perhaps as an attempt to hide their identity in fear of someone reporting back to their spouse. Although apparently, most of the men never quite caught on that the women were in the know, Jeannie herself would later say, I don't believe either of them were called John.

In fact, the man that I was dancing with was first to introduce himself to the others. When it came to Helen's partner, he seemed to pause for a second or two before giving his name as John. He seemed a bit apprehensive, and it was the only time I saw him look less than confident, because he seemed so certain of himself in every other way. Ah, now here we get a pretty important clue for deciphering Bible John's internal weavings, abundant confidence.

This seems to be a pretty common trait for serial killers, doesn't it? Well, you probably have to be pretty sure of yourself and your actions to do something as extreme as kill another person in cold blood. That I can understand. But what does it say about his mental state that he would let his confidence slip when introducing himself? My first thought is that he's trying to ensure he doesn't get caught. He probably knew there would be an investigation if he were to kill someone. In fact, there were already two before this, and he wasn't exactly hiding the bodies.

Right. But it's also a bit weird that he would hesitate there, of all places. I feel like if he was used to seducing women and killing them, that he'd have his story and introduction all down. So you think he wasn't too excited? experienced in this method of killing yet? But still, if I had to guess, I'd say it was pretty early in his career as a serial killer. But what about the complexity of the way he left the scene? That doesn't seem like an amateur setup to me.

The crime scene is complicated, to be sure, but I don't necessarily think it was the act of an experienced killer, merely the act of an obsessed one. Obsessed? Hmm. Now, that's an interesting choice of words. Could you maybe explain that a little more? Well, we know that Bible John had a very specific type. young menstruating mothers who like to go out dancing.

He also left his crime scene in a distinct way. Nude or partially nude bodies. Panty host tied around their neck, a bloody menstrual napkin nearby. Definitely unique. Exactly. For him to be so specific in his tastes, it seems to me like he probably spent a lot of time obsessing over the traits these women had and planning out how he wanted to kill them and leave their bodies.

There wasn't a sense of sloppiness or afterthought in how he arranged the scene. You know, this might be a good opportunity to talk about the difference between posing and staging bodies. Do you think you can help me out with this one? Of course. So, according to the FBI, if a body is moved and arranged after the kill with the intention of confusing or misleading criminal investigators, then it is called staging. AKA part of their MO, right? Right. But if arranging the body post-kill is only done in order to fulfill the fantasy of the killer, then it's called posing.

And let me guess, that means it's part of their signature. You got it. But the question here is which applies to Bible Chan? Staging, posing, or both? My first instinct is that it leans on the side of posing rather than staging. While it is true that he left no evidence behind that linked him to the crime, the way the bodies were arranged so carefully, their heads tilted to one side, a menstrual pad placed within reach, indicates to me that it was part of the fantasy,

A very specific fantasy at that. The obsession you were referring to earlier, right? The very same. Another interesting thing to note is that, according to data collected by various police departments around the globe, only about 1.3% of victims are left in an unusual position. Of course, about 23% are posed. In other words, part of the fantasy the killer has created, and about 13% of them are staged or arranged to mislead police.

Wow. 1.3% is actually way lower than I expected. It seems like we hear about killers who staged or posed their victim's bodies all the time. That's probably in part due to their prevalence of fictionalized serial killers in popular media. A serial killer who shot all his victims and left them wherever wouldn't make nearly as compelling a book or movie as a cannibal or a cross-dresser that kills a woman in a shower. Yeah, that's the idea. And even among, I guess, those who are real, rather than imagined, the unusual ones get more

media attention. Like Bible John. Indeed. Another interesting conclusion found of this data is that most of the victims were posed were female, and usually these cases also include sexual assault. Meanwhile, staged murders almost never show evidence of sexual assault. There does seem to be a correlation between sex and posing in a lot of the more famous cases, like Jack the Ripper. That's right. He posed his victims with their naked leg spread. It was considered to be sexual in nature, and just as in the Jack the Ripper case, the study also noted that it's much more common for cases where the victim was posed and sexually assaulted for the murder to have a more hands-on approach in killing the victim,

using cutting weapons, bludgeon, ligatures, or their bare hands. Well, this all seems to align pretty well with Bible John. Which is great, but it also opens a lot more questions about what exactly was going on inside Bible John's head. Why was he so obsessed with these women to the point of wanting to kill them? What was motivating him? And why the menstrual napkins? Well, this is usually the time in the movie where the police finally catched the killer

and force him to confess his deepest, darkest secrets. That would be nice, wouldn't it? But unfortunately, Helen Puddock's murderer, Bible John, vanished entirely. The police poured thousands of hours into tracking the killer down, even going so far as to send police as undercover dancers in the Barrel and Ballroom. But all was lost. Until, almost two decades later, when they finally arrested, a killer who just might be the answer to the burning question,

who is Bible John? Thanks again for tuning in to serial killers. If you want to listen to any previous episodes of serial killers, you can find them on iTunes, Google Play, SoundCloud, Stitcher, and Spotify, or on our website, parcast.com, spelled p-a-r-c-a-st-com. If you like what you hear, please leave a five-star review or tell us what you think on social media. We're on Facebook and Instagram as at Parcast and Twitter at Parcast Network.

It seems simple, but it really helps our show. Join us next Monday as we continue delving into the twisted psyche of Bible John. Have a killer week. Serial Killers was created by Max Cutler and developed by Ron Cutler. It is a production of Cutler media and is part of the Parcast Network. It is produced by Max and Ron Cutler, sound designed by Ron Shapiro with production assistants by Joel Stein and Maggie Admeyer. Serial Killers is written by Jen Enfield Kane and stars Greg Paulson and Vanessa Richardson. The amazing cast of voice actors includes by alphabetical order Mike Caposi and Kimberly Holland.

Do you want to hear something spooky? Some monster, it reminded me of Bigfoot. Monsters Among Us is a weekly podcast featuring true stories of the paranormal. One of the boys started to exhibit demonic possession. Stories straight from the witnesses' mouths themselves. Something very snake-close. lifted its head out of the water. Hosted by me, your guide, Derek Hayes.

Somehow I lost eight whole hours. Listen now on Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. Blood Trails is a true crime podcast born in the outdoors, where the terrain is unforgiving, the evidence is scarce, and the truth gets buried under brush and silence. I've seen something in the road. I instantly thought it was a sleeping bed, and there was a full of blood.

Somebody somewhere knows something. I'm Jordan Sillers. Season 2 is out now with new episodes every Thursday. Listen on the IHart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.