Killer Stories with Harvey Guillén - Carl Panzram Pt. 2

Episode Date: May 8, 2018

Carl Panzram didn't start out a murderer. He started with smaller crimes like robbery and arson and quickly worked his way up to more violent crimes. But most kids with his background grow up to not be serial killers. What happened to Carl Panzram that pushed him from regular felon to violent serial killer?  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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that some people may find offensive. We advise extreme caution for children under 13. In 1929, psychiatrist Dr. Menninger traveled to prison to meet with an infamous prisoner, Carl Pansram. Pansram was a self-confessed murderer, but Dr. Meninger wasn't scared. After all, Pansram was shackled and accompanied by five policemen. Meninger was so confident of his safety, he told Pansram that there was no way the murderer could harm him. But he was wrong. Pansram suddenly leapt forward in his chains, right at the doctor.

Pansram growled, quote, take these off of me for three minutes and I'll show you. I'll kill you right before their eyes, before they can stop me. You won't have time to be scared, end quote. Hi, I'm Greg Polson, and this is serial killers. Today we're going to continue our deep dive into the life of Carl Pansram, a serial killer who admitted to murdering 21 people, along with committing rape, arson, and burglary. I'm here with my co-host, Vanessa Richardson. Hi, everyone.

We'd like to ask a quick favor. Would you leave a five-star review of serial killers on your favorite podcast directory? It seems so simple, but it really helps us out. And don't forget to subscribe while you're there because a new episode comes out every Monday. You can also find us on Facebook and Instagram at Parcast and on Twitter at Parcast Network or in our website, parkast.com. Carl Pansram was a sadistic serial killer who claimed to kill 21 people in the 1910s and 1920s. 17 of the killings allegedly took place between 1920 and 1928. in the northeastern United States.

He killed his victims by strangling, shooting, bludgeoning, whatever was easiest. He also admitted to committing multiple sexual assaults, burglaries, and incidents of arson. He served jail time in prisons across the United States under his own name and several aliases. While there are records of Pansram's burglaries and many jail sentences,

the only evidence of his rapes and murders is his written confession. This confession was published in 1970 in the book, Killer, a Journal of Murder, edited by Thomas Gattis and James O'Long. In part one, we investigated Pansram's troubled childhood. As a boy, he was punished for drunkenness, theft, and threatening a preacher with a gun at school. During the early 1900s, he ran away from his family's Minnesota farm several times

and served several years in Minnesota and Marlowe. Montana reform schools. Pansaram briefly joined the military in 1906, despite being under age, but he was court-martialed and jailed after guards caught him stealing. This marked the beginning of a life in and out of prison. In part two, we'll explore the horrific crimes Pansram committed as an adult. We'll learn how he graduated from arson and theft to raping and murdering children. In 1912, 12, 20-year-old Carl Pansram reeked a path of destruction as he traveled on the Southern Pacific Railroad line from Yuma, Arizona to Fresno, California. He robbed and set fire to barns, chicken coops, and sheds.

But this was the least of his crimes. The following is a graphic description of a sexual nature. Listener discretion is advised. While hitching rides on trains, Pansram robbed and raped many of the homeless. people he encountered. Pansram said, quote, whenever I met a homeless man who wasn't too rusty looking,

I would make him raise his hands and drop his pants. I rode them old and young, tall and short, white and black. It made no difference to me at all, except that they were human beings, end quote. Police arrested 20-year-old

Panzeram several times during his train travels in 1912, but he often found a way to talk his way out of it. In Fresno, California, Panzeram received a jail sentence under the name Jeff Davis for 120 days for stealing a bicycle.

Just a quick disclaimer before we dive into the psychology here. Vanessa is not a licensed psychologist or a psychiatrist, but she has done a lot of research for the show. The uses of aliases by criminals has been studied by many psychologists. A study in the Journal of Forensic and Legal Medicine determined in 2013 that criminals who use aliases are serial offenders and career criminals.

In 2015, the International Journal of Emergency Mental Health and Human Resilience published a study stating that inmates who suffer from antisocial personality disorder are likely to use several aliases. Of course, doctors did not diagnose Pansram with that mental disorder, but it's an interesting correlation. It's unclear if the names Pansram chose to adopt meant something to him personally. His alias, Jeff Davis, comes from the president of the Confederacy, Jefferson Davis. We don't know if Panseram's views specifically aligned with the Confederacy. Throughout his written confession, though, Panseram uses a lot of racist and derogatory language

towards Native Americans and black people. Pansram also used the name Jefferson Baldwin after a famous American manufacturer of steam locomotives who Pansram admired. After all, Pansram traveled a lot by train. In 1912, he escaped from the Fresno prison after 30 days and returned to riding freight trains on the Southern Pacific Line, where he robbed and raped fellow drifters and railroad brakemen.

He traveled through Sacramento and Seattle, eventually ending up in Oregon. Pansram continued his pattern of committing crimes, going to jail and escaping several more times in different states. From 1912 until 1915, authorities sent Pansram to prison three different times on various charges including highway robbery, assault, arson, burglary, and rape. He served time in Oregon under the name Jack Allen, in Idaho as Jeff Davis, and in Montana as Jefferson Rhodes.

By 1915, 23-year-old Pansram had broad, muscled shoulders and a receding hairline. In Astoria, Oregon, he mostly hung around a place called the Louvre, which boasted a large collection of nude oil paintings, gambling tables, a brothel, and the world's longest bar, or so the place claimed. Panseram tried peddling a silver watch inside the Louvre, and Sheriff J.V. Burns arrested him. Some sources placed this arrest on June 1, 1915. The cops realized that the watch matched the description of a stolen item

from the House of C.R. Higgins, the president of the Bank of Historia. Burns took Pansram to the county jail, where Pansram gave his name as Jeff Baldwin. Burns and district attorney C.W. Mullins considered Pansram to be a prime suspect in the robbery of Higgins' house. Around 1915, they made Pansram a plea deal. If he told them where the rest of the stolen items were, he wouldn't have to go to court,

and he would be sentenced to working on the county road gang. Panseram accepted the deal and told Burns and Mullins where the rest of the items were. A blanket under the docks contained the loose bills, gold shirt studs, silverware, pairs of gloves, and a silver pepper shaker that were stolen from Higgins' house. Pansram pleaded guilty. to the theft of the watch, and Mullins dismissed the charge on Pansram for the rest of the items

as part of the deal. Judge E. V. Aiken, however, was a close friend of the Higgins family, and he decided to reject the plea deal. Eakon sentenced Pansram to seven years at Oregon State Penitentiary in Salem. This switch by the judge was common in courts in the 1910s. A plea bargain between a defendant and a prosecutor is not binding until it's approved by a judge. In frustration, 23-year-old Pansram broke out of the cell, trashed the county jail, and set fire to, quote, everything that was loose or could be torn loose and would burn, end quote. He plugged the locks so no one could enter or exit the prison.

Police eventually broke through the door and placed him back in his cell. According to Mullins, Pansram did this several times at the county jail in 1915. Mullins wrote the following in a report about Pansram and his actions to the warden of the Oregon State Penitentiary. Quote, this defendant was the source of more trouble while in jail here than any other prisoner we have had for many years. After he was sentenced, he broke various articles of furniture of the jail, started fires in the blankets and mattresses, and committed every act of depredation that he possibly could, end quote. Pansram said, quote, then I tried to play crazy, but I couldn't fool the doctors. I swore I would never do that seven years, end quote.

He did not specify how exactly he behaved or which doctors were evaluating him and why. At the time, psychiatrists may not have known what exactly was going on with Pansram. By 1915, doctors had only recently moved beyond asylum treatment and developed psychotherapy techniques in private practices, such as Dr. Sigmund Freud's new psychoanalytic method, the first edition of the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders would not be published for almost 40 more years. So in June 1915, Pansram was moved from the Astoria County Jail and arrived with his Clean Bill of Health at Oregon State Penitentiary, an overcrowded prison known for its harsh

treatment of inmates. The warden was a 51-year-old gruff sheriff named Harry Minto. The warden enforced silence in the jail. Talking or looking like it prompted beatings from guards. Inmates walked in lockstep with each other. This prison model was called the Auburn System, which originated an Auburn Correctional Facility in New York in the 1800s. Prisons enforced the system throughout the 19th century, aiming to rehabilitate inmates through

industry, obedience, and silence. Inmates worked together in silence during the day and spent their nights in solitary confinement. Due to his behavior in the Astoria jail, Oregon State Penitentiary guards kept a close eye on Pansram. He received the last cell on the bottom of the B block. The next day, Pansram doused a guard with the contents of his chamber pot. The guards beat Pansram and handcuffed him inside a dark cell

in the hole for 30 days. In a 2006 study published by the Washington University Journal of Law and Policy, psychiatrist Dr. Stuart Grassian found that solitary confinement can cause severe psychological harm to inmates, including individuals who did not have a history of mental illness. But even by 1915, authorities were aware of at least some of the effects of solitary confinement on inmates. In 1890, the U.S. Supreme Court case, in Re Medley, stated the following, quote, a considerable number of the prisoners became violently insane.

Others still committed suicide, while those who stood the ordeal better were not generally reformed and in most cases did not recover sufficient mental activity to be of any subsequent service to the community, end quote. When Oregon State authorities released 21-year-old Parenthood. Pansram to a cell block. He met 21-year-old Otto Hooker, an orphan with a crooked nose and a work assignment on the prison's farm work gang. Panseram described Hooker as, quote, a big, tough, half-simple Hoosier kid, and I steamed him up to escape, end quote. Dr. Elizabeth Yardley, Director of the Center for Applied Criminology at Birmingham City,

said that serial killers like Pansram tend to be skilled at manipulating other people. She said, quote, serial killers tend to have a very good grasp of other people's emotions and are quick to pick up on any vulnerability or weakness in order to convince them into doing things they normally wouldn't, end quote. On the morning of September 27, 1915, Hooker evaded the guards and ran away from the farm, which was located a mile south of the prison. Prison warden Minto and the guards at Oregon State Penitentiary formed a search party to find Hooker. After an all-day search, Hooker encountered Minto at 1130 p.m. And shot the warden in the head.

Many sources considered this to be Pansram's first involvement in a murder, calling him either an accomplice or an accessory to the killing. After Harry Minto's death, his brother, John Minto, a former police chief, became the prison warden. Pansram didn't say if John Minto knew about his role in his brother's death. During John Minto's tenure, Pansram kept up his usual pattern. He tried to escape the prison, he set fire to the prison shops, and he got other inmates to rebel along with him.

Around November 1916, 24-year-old Panseram befriended his cellmate Jim Curtis, and together they planned to take down the careers of Minto. and his deputy warden named Cooper. They scheme to help other inmates escape because the guards constantly watched Pansram. On November 11, 1916, two inmates escaped, and Minto punished Pansram and Curtis for it. Pansram said, quote,

they took their spite out on the rest of us, me and Curtis. They stripped naked and chained us up to a door and then turned the fire hose on us until we were black and blue and half blind. end quote. Oregon Governor Withycombe was furious about the fire hose punishment and launched an investigation in which he interviewed Pansram, Curtis, the guards, and Minto. Withycombe wrote in his report to the Board of Control, quote, why this direct and premeditated violation of my instruction and the law itself was indulged in, I am at a loss to understand.

Granting even that the men were bad troublemakers, a prison administration, which cannot handle the problems except by employing such antedated methods admits its own incompetence, end quote. John Minto turned in his resignation. Pansram was prepared to dislike the next prison warden a 49-year-old former army captain named Charles A. Murphy.

But Murphy had a different approach than the others. Pansram wrote, quote, I had never seen anything like what he was doing. There was no religion about him. and there was no brutality. When I first heard that, I thought he was crazy. That was wrong. Then I thought he was a fool.

That was wrong, end quote. Murphy was a captain in the Spanish-American War and worked as a hospital engineer when he took the job to become prison warden. He abolished the whole and many of the other harsh punishments of Oregon State Penitentiary and established a new punishment called KP,

which involved peeling potatoes in the kitchen. It earned him the nickname Spud Murphy. Clinical psychologist Dr. Joel Dvoskin said that punishment of disobedience only works in the short term to alter the behavior of inmates. In his research of prisons, he found that most inmates learned aggressive behaviors from other inmates acting similarly. Dr. Dvoskin suggested that behavior modification techniques, such as positive or negative reinforcement, as well as social learning principles, could work. to rehabilitate inmates, but it's not often used, even in modern prisons. That's what made Murphy's changes to the prison extraordinary. Murphy improved the food and increased the number of jobs for inmates.

But by March 25, 1917, 25-year-old Pansaram attempted to escape again. Instead of handing the inmate a harsh punishment, Murphy looked into Panseram's previous escapes and observed he was not learning from his harsh punishment. Murphy ordered extra food rations and several books and magazines for Pansram. It didn't work. Guards caught Pansram sawing his cell door hinges with a hacksaw. Murphy called a meeting with the inmate, and Pansram expected to receive a harsh punishment.

But Murphy's plan of action shocked Pansram more so than any other punishment he had ever received. We'll return to our story in just a moment. It's the Paradise Podcast. I am your host, Ryan Michelle Bethay, with my husband Sterling. What's up? Join us here on Hulu and Hulu on Disney Plus, where we'll discuss each episode with the cast and crew of Paradise. I'll be getting all the secrets from Dan Fulglement,

James Marsden, Shailene Woodley, Julian Nicholson, and Sterling Calbee Brown. Who! Paradise, the official podcast, is now streaming. And stream Paradise on Kulu and Kulu on Disney Plus. Ryan Reynolds here for MintMobil. I don't know if you knew this, but anyone can get the same premium wireless for $15 a month plan that I've been enjoying. It's not just for celebrities. So do like I did and have one of your assistants assistants to switch you to MintMobile today. I'm told it's super easy to do at mintmobile.com slash switch. Up front payment of $45 for three month plan equivalent to $15 per month required. Intro rate first three months only, then full price plan options available. Taxes and fees extra. See full terms at mintmobile.com. Now the story continues. 25-year-old Carl Pansram had spent much of his young life enduring harsh treatment from prison wardens.

But in 1917, prison warden Charles Spud Murphy offered Pansram a surprising deal. If the inmates stopped his attempts to escape, then Murphy would let him go outside of the prison as long as he returned for dinner time. Panseram accepted the deal and called this, quote, the biggest surprise of my life, end quote. At first, Pansram intended to defy Murphy and never returned to the prison, but Murphy's policies seemed to have a positive effect on Pansram. Murphy opened the gates for Pansram. He was free to roam, and then he returned.

Pansram knew he could have left then and there, but he didn't. He was very confused. Pansram said, quote, I couldn't understand that I didn't try to escape at all. Spud Murphy was waiting for me. He asked me why I didn't beat it. I told him I didn't know, end quote. 25-year-old Pansram also asked the prison doctors to examine him to see if he was, quote, crazy or not.

The doctors said he was sane. Panseram continued to obey Murphy and do as the warden said. Murphy gave Panseram a job in the prison. Pansram said, quote, I worked for him, or I would never do anything right for any other wardens in other prisons." End quote. Murphy even got Pansaram to play baseball and carried the American flag in the new prison band.

25-year-old Panseram stopped trying to escape. At the time, Murphy's methods were very unorthodox and noticed by the outside world. According to Pansram, the state of Oregon was, quote, in an uproar. The papers all over the country had their eyes on Spud Murphy everybody was watching his experiment with interest, end quote. Murphy was a self-admitted idealist, and he felt that the prison should do more to help the

inmates reform their lives. Lawmen and guards respected Murphy for his record in the military. 25-year-old Panseram's good behavior was short-lived, though. In September 1917, he got drunk with a nurse from a nearby hospital in Salem. He stayed out beyond curfew, hopped on a freight train passing through. A week later, Pansram stole a bicycle in Shed Oregon and rode it to Tanger, a farming community. In Albany, Oregon, Pansram burglarized a home, stole a loaded pistol,

and got into a gunfight with Chief Deputy Sheriff Joseph Frum. Pansram expressed shame for his actions and engaged in the gunfight because he did not want to face Murphy. Pansram said, quote, I felt I would rather die than be brought back to the prison to face Spud Murphy, end quote. When the pistol ran out of bullets, Frum arrested Pansram and loaded Panseram into the back seat of the police car. As Frum drove, Panseram grabbed Frum's gun and pulled the trigger. The gun did not fire.

Panseram returned to Oregon State Penitentiary in chains. The incident embarrassed Murphy, and he gave Panseram a harsh punishment. From September 27th until September 30th, 1917, authorities placed 25-year-old Pansram in the jail's bullpen and hung him with his hands cuffed to the cell doors for eight hours each day. Panseram did not complain about this punishment. Meanwhile, the governor hired Charles Burns, a deputy warden to work under Murphy and report back to him. The inmates began to rebel and attempt to escape again, but Pansram remained quite. quiet in his cell. Pansram stood trial for the burglary and assault with intent to kill on December 3rd, 1917, and he wore irons in the courtroom at Murphy's request. Panseram pleaded not guilty

to both charges in two separate jury trials, but both juries convicted him of the charges under the name Jefferson Baldwin. On December 6th, 1917, the judge sentenced 25-year-old Pansram to eight years for the assault and two for the burglary to be served consecutively. After the trial, Murphy wrote a letter to the judge discussing Pansram, who Murphy knew under the alias Jefferson Baldwin. Murphy wrote, quote, I hardly know what my future course will be concerning Baldwin. I know for certain I will never trust him again, but what steps to take towards reformation I do not know.

I am inclined to think it is hopeless, end quote. Pansram stayed in a locked cell until April 1918 when he was given a job inside the kitchen. In May 1918, the prison guards stationed themselves by a window with cut bars in the basement, thinking that 26-year-old Pansram and the other inmates might attempt to escape through there. Instead, Pansram donned a white cook's uniform, used a tool to cut the bars to a window on the opposite side of the basement, and escaped before anyone noticed. before anyone noticed.

In 1918, Pansram knew he was a wanted man, under the names Jefferson Baldwin and Jeff Davis. So he took on the alias John O'Leary as he traveled the East Coast, after an inmate in the Oregon State Penitentiary he had known. Around 1919, Panseram worked on several ships that traveled to Peru, Panama, Chile, and Scotland. 27-year-old Pansram robbed the Scottish ship and served a short jail sentence in Berlin,

prison in Glasgow. After making his way to London and Paris, Pansram joined another ship in Hamburg, Germany as a sailor, which brought him back to the United States in 1920. By the time he returned to New York, he did not have much money left. Around 1920, 28-year-old Pansram traveled to New Haven, Connecticut, where he burglarized a house. He stole $40,000 worth of jewelry, 3,000 in cash, a 45 cult automatic gun, and liberty bonds registered to W.H. Taft. Pansram claimed that he only realized that he was robbing former president William Howard Taft's home when he saw the bonds. Taft had been the Secretary of War who gave Pansram his first adult prison sentence in a court-martial. Using those funds, Panseram bought a yacht called the Akista.

on September 21st, 1920. He spent most of his time on the yacht alone, until he came up with a new plan. Pansram decided to hire sailors for his yacht, to rape, rob, and kill. Panseram looked for sailors who were his size and who had money at the Siemens Church Institute in Manhattan. He hired them to work on his yacht

and carry out his plan by City Island. Panseram said, quote, there we would whine and dine, and when they were drunk enough, they would go to bed. When they were asleep, I would get my 45 Colt Army automatic. This I stole from Mr. Taff's home and blow their brains out, end quote. Panseram did not specify if he raped the men before or after he killed them. He admitted to murdering 10 men this way over the course of three weeks in 1920. 28-year-old Pansram threw the bodies overboard about a mile away.

When Pansram's neighbors became suspicious, he hired two sailors and kept them alive on the boat, but planned to kill them eventually. Pansram took the yacht to Gravesend Bay, New York, where he robbed another boat. He planned on killing his two sailors, but Pansram's yacht became wrecked off the coast of Atlantic City, New Jersey, before he had the chance to do so. Pansram and the sailors survived and went their separate ways. It's not clear what Pansram did for the next few months, but around 1921, 29-year-old Pansram served six months in a Connecticut prison for burglary,

and authorities charged him with aggravated assault and inciting to riot during a seaman's union strike. He was released on bail and traveled to Norfolk, Virginia, where he got on a ship headed for Europe. However, Pansram ended up in Africa. Pansram continued traveling and eventually ended up in the port city Luanda, Angola, which was ruled by Portugal at the time. Around 1921, he got a job with a Sinclair oil company. Soon after, Panseram procured an 11 or 12-year-old girl for eight American dollars and implied he wanted to have sex with a virgin. It's not entirely clear why or how to... 29-year-old Pansram became interested in sex with children.

Pansram was not pleased with the 12-year-old girl or an 8-year-old girl he received as a replacement. Instead, 29-year-old Pansram raped the young boy who was his table waiter. The boy told Pansram's boss at the oil company about the rape, and the boss fired Pansram. U.S. Consul Clark refused to help Panseram with the situation. Outside of the consul's office, Pansram noticed, an 11 or 12-year-old boy wandering around.

Pansram lured the young boy to a nearby gravel pit. Then he raped and killed him. Panzeram did not specify how he killed the young boy, but did write the following about his death. Quote, his brains were coming out of his ears when I left him, and he will never be any deader. He is still there, end quote.

Around 1921, 29-year-old Pansram, arrived at Lobito Bay in Angola, where he hired six men to take him hunting on a canoe in the back waters. Throughout Pans Ram's written confession, he referred to the men using derogatory racist language. During the hunt, the six men had their backs turned to him. Pansram fired a single shot into each man's back. As they lay wounded in the canoe,

Pansram shot each man in the head. He said, quote, Then I threw them all. overboard and the crocodiles soon finished what I had left of them." End quote. Pansram expressed disappointment that a gun silencer he had bought did not work while he was committing the murders. He said that if the silencer had worked, then he would have, quote, gone into the murder

business on a wholesale scale. My intentions were good because I am the man who goes around the world doing people good, quote. After the murders aboard the canoe, Pansram stowed away on several American and European ships until he made it back to New York City, where he obtained another boating license. On July 18, 1922, Pansram raped and killed a 12-year-old boy named Henry McMahon by beating him with a rock. According to the Bar Daily Times in Vermont, authorities found McMahon with his head crushed

and his face mutilated. From 1922 to 1923, Pansram robbed a hospital in New Orleans and robbed boats at the New Haven Yacht Club in Connecticut. He spent some time working at a mill in Yonkers and met a teenager named George Wallawson. In May 1923, Pansram stole a yacht in Providence, Rhode Island and traveled to New York to pick up George. He apparently intended George to be an accomplice, but George became a victim too. Pansram painted the yacht, changed its name, and tried to sell it in Kingston, New York. A man expressed interest in purchasing the boat and went to see the yacht with Pansram. Pansram became suspicious of the man, because the man did not purchase the yacht from him right away.

While aboard the yacht, the man tried to rob Pansram. Pansram shot the man twice, killing him. Pansram threw the man and the gun overboard before sailing to Newburgh, New York. At this point, George told Pansram that he was scared and wanted to go home to Yonkers. Once George returned home, the boy told the police about Pansram's actions on the boat and what Pansram had done to him. Around 1923, police arrested 31-year-old Pansram in Nyak and brought him to a Yonkers jail. Panseram was charged with rape, burglary, robbery, and attempting to escape from the Yonkers jail.

Pansram obtained a lawyer named D.J. Cashin. Pansram gave Cachan the yacht as payment for his release from prison and acquittal. But perhaps Cachean shouldn't have fought so hard to get Panseram acquitted. Just a few days after the trial, Pansram raped and killed a young boy in New Haven, Connecticut. Pansram said, quote, I tied his belt around his neck and strangled him. Picked him up when he was dead and threw his body over. some bushes, end quote.

We'll return to our story in just a moment from the Parkast Network. And now, back to the story. In 1923, Carl Pansram was once again sentenced to prison, but not for any of his horrendous rapes or murders. Instead, a judge sentenced 31-year-old Pansram to serve five years at the Sing-Sing Correctional facility in Ossining, New York, for robbing a post office. Pansram's unfinished sentence from Oregon State Penitentiary also caught up with him. Authorities placed a hold on Pansram to make him available to serve the remaining 14 years on his sentence in Oregon after his sentence in Sing Sing.

In October 1923, authorities transferred Panseram and a dozen other inmates to the infamous Clinton Correctional Facility in Danamora, New York. The prison was colloquially known as Danamora. and in 1923 held inmates that were notably difficult or hard to handle. Guards knew Pansram's record of escapes, so they watched him very closely. But Pansram got into trouble once again. He tried to murder another inmate by hitting the back of his head with a 10-pound club. The inmate survived the blow, and Pansram had a few more months added to his sentence due to the assault. Six months into his sentence, 32-year-old.

old Pansram tried to escape on July 25th, 1924. During his escape attempt, Pansram claimed he fell 30 feet and broke both his ankles and legs, as well as fracturing his spine. New York Department of Correction Deputy Commissioner John R. Kane disputed this claim. Kane said that Pansram, quote, sustained some temporary injury to his feet and legs, nothing as spectacular as breaking both legs and rupturing himself, end quote. Pansram claimed he spent the next 14 months at Danamora suffering from a lot of pain. On August 7, 1925, 33-year-old Pansram had surgery and claimed that one of his testicles

was removed without his knowledge. Kane, however, said that Pansram had requested its removal. During his time at Danamora, Pansram came up with detailed plans to plan. bombs on trains, steal millions of dollars, and start a war between England and the United States. Pansram understood that his plan of action sounded grandiose, but he felt it was doable by him alone upon his release from Danamora. He said, quote, I also feel sure that it could have and would have done just exactly as I planned

if circumstances and luck had not been against me, end quote. Pansram detailed this plan in his written confession, which Dr. Carl Menninger later evaluated. Dr. Meninger detailed his evaluation of Pansram's written confession in the book, Man Against Himself, published in 1938. In the book, the psychiatrist called Pansram by the name John Smith, and wrote that Pansram's destructive plan was, quote, by no means absurd in its conception, end quote. Dr. Menninger continued writing, quote,

I have never seen an individual whose destructive impulses were so accepted and acknowledged by his conscious ego, end quote. The conscious ego Dr. Menninger is referring to here is part of Sigmund Freud and Carl Young's shared belief that consciousness is what humans are aware of in society, as well as what is right and wrong. Around 1928, 36-year-old Pansram received release from Danamora. 18 days after his release, he committed around six to eight burglaries. Two days after that, he murdered a man in Baltimore by unknown means. Two days later, he committed two more burglaries. Dr. Meninger determined that Pansram had self-destructive tendencies,

meaning that Panseram committed these crimes over and over again because he wanted to get caught. Dr. Menninger wrote the following in his book. Quote, some criminality is the result of overwhelming hate developed in childhood, which the individual can express only at the price of intimidation by his own conscious to such an extent that he unconsciously fails to carry through his aggressions and allows himself to be detected, captured, and punished, end quote.

On August 10, 1928, police, Police arrested Pansram for burglarizing a rooming house in Washington, D.C. Police described Panseram as a, quote, bear-like man with a limp, a heavy black mustache, and agate hard eyes, end quote. For the first time since 1907, Panseram gave his own name upon arrest. Police booked Panseram in the Washington District Jail, where he met a prison guard named Henry Lesser. 25-year-old Lesser was a shy and shy and

friendly man. He quit school in the 10th grade and worked as a salesperson in a clothing store and a hospital attendant before becoming a prison guard. Pansram and Lesser's first conversation was short. Lesser asked when Pansram's court date was and quote, what's your racket? And quote, Pansram responded, quote, how did you know? What I do is reform people. And quote, this intrigued Lesser. Due to his records, authorities brought 36-year-old Pansram down to the jail's basement, where they handcuffed him behind an iron beam, and they slipped a rope inside the cuffs to hang Pansram from the ceiling.

They suspended Panseram above the floor, and he was barely able to tiptoe on the floor from his hanging position. A doctor checked on Pansram occasionally through the inmates 12 hours in the position. Pansram threatened to rape the doctor. assistant and insulted the officer who enforced the punishment. As a result, Pansram received another night suspended from the beam in the basement. The next morning, rumors began to spread around the prison that Panseram confessed to the murders of three young boys in Boston, New Haven, and Philadelphia. Panseram had previously made a similar confession to the detectives, but the police

dismissed it. The detectives took his admission more seriously, when Pansram delivered the same confession while undergoing torture. Today, this reasoning has been found to be inaccurate. Trinity College Dublin professor Shane O'Mara wrote in his book, Why Torture Doesn't Work, the Neuroscience of Interrogation, that torture harms the areas of the brain associated with memories, so torture often leads to victims making a false confession filled with untrue information. The timing of Panseram's confession,

could have been more to do with a desire to assert himself in the prison. According to criminologist Dr. Elizabeth Yardley, serial killers tend to hold back important information as a demonstration of power. It gives them a, quote, warped sense of authority, according to Dr. Yardley. Sometime during fall 1928, Panseram was caught loosening the window bars of his cell, and he was tortured as punishment. He returned to his cell half. conscious. In a show of empathy, Lesser offered Pansram some pocket money. Pansram realized

Lesser was being sincere and was moved to tears by the young guard's kindness. Pans Ram told Lesser, quote, you are one of the few people I do not wish to harm." Pansram began to trust Lesser enough to discuss things that he didn't talk about with anyone else, such as his interest in the philosophies of Emmanuel Kant, Arthur Schopenhauer, and Friedrich Nietzsche. It's unclear when Pansram's interest in philosophy began, but he was an avid reader of philosophy books during his time in prison. Pansram told Lesser that he shared Schopenhauer's pessimism about human life, and some of Kant's work frustrated him. Lesser said the following about Pansram, quote, We became friendly, a spirit of Entente-Corp.

Cordial prevailed between us, end quote. At one point, Panseram asked Lesser, when are you going to ask me about my life? Lesser answered, whenever you want to talk, I'll listen. According to Dr. Yardley, serial killers enjoy bragging and boasting about their crimes to other people, including law enforcement. This was possibly a way for Pansram to do just that, but it could have also been a way for Pansram to bond with Lesser. Panseram would write down the story of his life for Lesser as long as the guard provided him with a pencil and paper. Panseram wrote about 20,000 words to tell his side of the story and snuck a few pages each night to Lesser through the bars of his prison cell. Panseram's papers detailed his life, his crimes, and even his analysis of the criminal underworld.

On November 11, 1928, 36-year-old Pansram's court date added another chapter to his life, the judge sentenced him to 25 years at Leavenworth Federal Penitentiary in Kansas. Lesser gave Pansram an extra package of cigarettes and tried to comfort his friend by talking about rumors of prison reform. On January 30, 1929, authorities transported 37-year-old Pansram to Leavenworth, accompanied by Lesser. He said the following about his time at Leavenworth, quote, my last term in prison was exactly the same as the first, and the results were the same in each case, end quote. Pansram and Lesser continued corresponding through letters, though most of Lesser's letters to Panseram were not preserved.

Pansram settled in at Leavenworth. He mostly kept to himself. Authorities assigned him to work in the laundry room with guard Robert Warnke. Marty Raco, another inmate who worked in the laundry room, noticed Pansram's, cold, calculating stare at Warnke. Pansram never detailed why he disliked Warnke, but Raco said that he sensed trouble. To purchase better food and cigarettes, Panseram began laundering extra handkerchiefs from the laundry room. Warnke found out and sent Pansram to solitary confinement. Psychiatrist Dr. Craig Haney told PBS's frontline in 2013 that inmates in solitary confinement often panic.

then developed depression and hopelessness. In his research, he said that many inmates do, quote, outrageous things in solitary confinement just to prove that they're still there, end quote. Some inmates become easily angered or irritated, which Dr. Haney has seen develop into rage. Most inmates who ended up in solitary were given new assignments once the punishment finished. Pans Ram hoped to be transferred, but he did not get his wish.

He also formally applied for a transfer twice, and both Warnkei and Deputy Warden Zerpsed denied it both times. Panzeram returned to the laundry duty under the supervision of Warnke. In a June 15th, 1929 letter to Lesser, 37-year-old Panzeram wrote, quote, I am still on my same job, and I like it less each day. I'm getting all set for a change. It won't be long now, end quote. On June 20th, 1929, Pansram went to breakfast in the dining hall with the other inmates,

then reported for work in the laundry room. He searched for a weapon. Meanwhile, Warnke and the other inmates reported for work in the laundry facility, and no one noticed that Pansram was not in his usual spot. Suddenly, Pansram murdered Warnke by striking him with a four-foot-long 10-pound iron bar. In a letter sometime after the murder in 1929, Pansaram wrote the following to Lesser, quote, Well, I got a change all right, but I had to kill my boss to get it. That makes either 21 or 22 that I have to my credit. You can put that in your little storybook, and if I keep living much longer, I may have some more to put more in my graveyard, end quote. Meanwhile, Lesser sent Panseram's written confession to professors, publishers,

and psychiatrists. Around 1929, Lesser sent the pages to psychiatrist Dr. Menninger to interpret. Dr. Menninger met with Pansram in person at one point and experienced the doctor detailed in a 1968 letter to James Long. Dr. Meninger and Pansram met in the ante room of a federal courtroom.

Pansram was shackled and accompanied by five policemen. He was physically intimidating, and he spoke fiercely. Despite Pansram's many threats, Dr. Meninger told Pansram that he didn't think the inmate would hurt him. Pansram leapt forward as far as his chains would let him, startling both Dr. Menninger and the policeman. He said, quote, take these off of me for three minutes and I'll show you. I'll kill you right before their eyes, before they can stop me. You won't have time to be scared, end quote.

And that's when Pansram detailed to Dr. Meninger the many, murders he had committed throughout his life. Dr. Menninger said that Pansram continued on with a, quote, diatribe about the incurable evilness of mankind, justifying complete extinction, including himself, end quote. Authorities placed 38-year-old Panseram in isolation until his April 15, 1930 trial for the murder. Lesser wanted to help him reform,

but Panseram rejected the idea by saying, quote, I do not care to live any longer if I must live in prison. I would far rather die and go to hell if that's where people like me go after death." End quote. It's possible that solitary confinement may have made Pansram suicidal. Dr. Haney said that isolated inmates often turn to self-harm and attempting suicide to regain feeling any type of emotion. He said, quote, people begin actually to no longer have feelings and to be not sure

whether they can have feelings. For some people, harming themselves is a way of creating a feeling, creating a reaction, feeling something intense, and having control over that feeling in an environment where they don't have control over any other feelings

or any other activities in which they can engage. End quote. Panzeram refused the offer of a judge-appointed attorney for the trial and pleaded not guilty, challenging the judge to find him guilty. The jury found Pansram guilty of first-degree murder, and he was sentenced to death by hanging, which would occur on September 5, 1930.

The verdict pleased Pansram, but he was disappointed that he had to wait several months before the execution. Panseram wrote the following in a letter to Lesser, quote, I have never found the good fortune to find it in life, so I expect to find it in death. I hope so, and I believe so. In May 1930, the Kansas delegation of the Society for the Abolishment of Capital Punishment visited Pansram in prison after hearing about his upcoming execution. The group wanted to request that President Herbert Hoover changed Pansram's sentence, and they asked Pansram to sign their petition.

In a rage, Pansram shouted profanity at them and later wrote them a letter, asking the delegation to stop their efforts. He wrote, quote, are doing without my consent and against my will. I choose to die here and now by being hanged by the neck until I am dead." End quote. In order to make sure the society for the abolishment of capital punishment did not interfere with this death sentence, Panseram wrote a letter to President Hoover on May 30, 1930. Panseram wrote the following, quote, I believe that I am within my constitutional rights when I refuse to accept a pardon or commutation from the death penalty to a sentence of life

imprisonment, either in a prison or an insane asylum. After writing both letters, Pansram decided to send them to lesser instead in order to explain Pansram's logic for his decision. Fearing that his life might be spared, 38-year-old Pansram attempted suicide on June 20, 1930 on the anniversary of Warnke's death. Pansram cut a six-inch gash in his leg and ate a poisoned bowl of rotten beans. The night guard heard his retching and called for help, saving Pansram's life. Throughout 1930, Pansram and Lesser continued their correspondence. Pansram requested that Lesser subscribe him to several publications until his death, such as the Christian Science Monitor and Time.

At the time, Lesser had been training to become a guard in the federal, prison system in which Pansram was serving time. He earned a placement at a federal penitentiary in Atlanta. Lesser wrote Pansram a letter on August 4th, 1930, in which Lesser updated Panseram regarding which psychiatrists Lesser sent his written confession. Lesser also reiterated to Pansram that he would share any earnings with Pansram if a publisher purchased the manuscript. In response, Panseram wrote a Kurt an angry letter addressed to H.P. Lesser, screw. During their friendship, this was the only time Pansram had called Lesser by this derogatory term for prison guard. In the undated letter, Panzeram wrote that, quote, there's nothing more you can do for me, end quote,

and told Lesser to keep any money earned by his written confession. At around 6 a.m. September 5, 1930, Warden White, led Panse, Pansram and a procession to the gallows. Guards fastened Pansram into a leather corset to prepare him for hanging. The hangman asked Pansram, quote, anything you want to say? End quote. Panseram responded, quote, yes, hurry it up, you Hoosier bastard. I could hang a dozen men while you're fooling around. Those were Pansram's final words. At 6.19 a.m., Carl Pansram died at the gallows at age of 38, finally getting his wish, escaping the prison system once and for all. Thanks again for tuning in to serial killers.

If you want to listen to any previous episodes of serial killers, you can find them on Apple Podcasts, tune in, Google Play, Stitcher, and Spotify, or in our website, parcast.com. Spelled P-A-R-C-A-S-T-com. If you like what you're here, please leave a five-star review or Tell us what you think on social media. We're on Facebook and Instagram as at Parcast. And Twitter, at Parcast Network. It seems simple, but it really helps our show.

Have a killer week. Serial Killers was created by Max Cutler. It is a production of Cutler Media and is part of the Parcast Network. It is produced by Max and Ron Cutler, sound design by Carrie Murphy, with production assistants by Ron Shapiro and Paul Mahler. Additional production assistance by, Carly Madden and Maggie Admeyer. Serial Killers is written by

Mallory Cara and stars Greg Paulson and Vanessa Richardson. Blood Trails is a true crime podcast born in the outdoors. Where the terrain is unforgiving, the evidence is scarce, and the truth gets buried under brush and silence.

I've seen something in the road. I instantly thought it was a sleeping bed and there was a full of blood. Somebody somewhere knows something. I'm Jordan Sillers. Season 2 is out now with new episodes every Thursday. Listen on the IHart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. A beloved 75-year-old man washing up, getting ready for bed, is brutally beaten and killed. Despite an exhaustive investigation, the killer avoids arrest and then strikes again.

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