Killer Stories with Harvey Guillén - “Dr. Death” Pt. 2 - Harold Shipman

Episode Date: February 26, 2018

During his 25-year medical career, Harold Shipman rose to be a respectable family doctor who treated his patients with outstanding care. But behind closed doors, he operated as Dr. Death, and injected... his victims with deadly doses of diamorphine. We look into how this man, who may have killed more than 200 people, managed to get away with it for so long.  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Starting point is 00:02:25 nature of this killer's crimes, listener discretion is advised. This episode includes dramatizations, and discussions of murder and assault that some people may find offensive. We advise extreme caution for children under 13. Modern medicine has done wonders to increase our lifespans. We're living to ages that wouldn't be possible without advanced technologies in health care and the doctors that administer that care. But every time we go to see our doctors, we put our trust in them, believing that they'll do their best to keep us safe and help us live long, healthy lives.
Starting point is 00:03:00 But as we've learned from Harold Chippman, that might not be the case. Our doctors could be plotting our murder as they give us a physical or a vaccination. There could be a monster lurking behind the mask, ready to turn our trust against us. That's exactly what Harold Chippman did to the entire town of Hyde, England. Over the course of nearly 25 years, from 1974 to 1998, he murdered patient after patient, mostly the elderly, those who wouldn't draw too much attention to him. What Shipman did was rob as victims of the last good years of their lives, all to satisfy his own dark needs and frustrations.
Starting point is 00:03:43 But this week, we'll find out how Dr. Death met his doom. Hi, I'm Greg Poulson, and this is serial killers. Today we're going to continue our examination of the life of Harold Frederick Shipman, otherwise known as Dr. Death. I'm here with my co-host Vanessa Richardson. Vanessa's not a licensed psychologist or psychiatrist, but she's done a lot of research for the show. Hi, everyone.
Starting point is 00:04:14 We'd like to ask a quick favor. Would you leave a five-star review of serial killers on your favorite podcast directory? It seems so simple, but it really helps us out. And don't forget to subscribe all you there because a new episode comes out every Monday. You can also find us on Facebook and Instagram at Parcast.
Starting point is 00:04:31 And on Twitter at Parcast Network. Last week we looked at the dark origins of Dr. Shipman, starting with his mother's death and his own drug use throughout medical school. His mother's cancer and the opioid treatment she received to mitigate it would have lasting impacts on Shipman, shaping his modus operandi of murdering older patients with drug overdoses. And where we left off last week, Shipman had already been murdering his patients for over 15 years, starting with his first victim in 1974. When he left Donnybrook to start his own practice, Shipman still had years left in his murderous career.
Starting point is 00:05:12 Shipman's departure from the Donnybrook practice in January of 1992 was less than amicable. We've already discussed Shipman's concerns about committing his murders and the proximity of his co-workers, all potential witnesses to his crimes. But Shipman's ego also played a huge role in his decision to leave. This superiority complex, left over from the doting words of his mother, made Shipman feel like he was the best doctor in England. The killing of his patients aside. But the reasons he gave his Donnybrook co-workers for leaving
Starting point is 00:05:43 were their new computer system, used for recording patient details and their participation in fund-holding, where the national health system allocated funds to practitioners to use at their discretion. Shipman's excuses didn't make any sense, especially because the first thing he did once he started his new practice was get a computer.
Starting point is 00:06:02 And later at Shipman's trial, he would say he left because his co-workers weren't as committed to fund-holding as he was. Shipman's shady departure confirmed to his co-workers that he had a lone wolf mentality and held a deep-seated annoyance for his colleagues. And after the way that Shipman left, his co-workers weren't too fond of him either. Siting a loophole in his contract with the practice, he was able to take his lengthy list of over 2,000 patients with him, leaving his former employer with a gaping hole in their pocket. Of course, Shipman didn't care about his co-waters. workers. He cared about his own reputation.
Starting point is 00:06:38 In 1992, when Shipman officially opened his own practice on Market Street, he immediately instituted Saturday office hours. His doting wife, Primrose, even stepped in as a secretary on these mornings to save money. Shipman worked overtime to make sure that he was adored by his mostly elderly clientele, and this strategy seemed to work. As the lead investigator on the case, Dame Janet Smith said in her report on Shipman, He enjoyed, quote, almost celebrity-like status among them, end quote. One of his victims, Mrs. Florence Lewis, later killed in her own home at Shipman's hand, told her son she felt like she had won the lottery when Shipman added her to his client list. Certainly, when they were alive, Shipman treated his patience with care and attentiveness to keep up his facade.
Starting point is 00:07:26 But that compassionate front fell away as soon as Shipman had claimed his victim. Reports from families of Shipman's victims describe him as Kurt and Turs when dealing with dead. In one instance, in April of 1997, after Shipman had killed Mrs. Mary Coots, he told her confused and upset family he, quote, didn't believe in keeping them going, end quote. This offers some insight into Shipman's strategic approach to his patients. While his good standing with him was partially motivated by ego, he also saw his likability as a cloaking device that hid his foul play. Running his own practice was another tactical advantage for Shipman
Starting point is 00:08:06 when it came to his murders. Without co-workers looking over his shoulder, shipment could more easily get away with overdosing his patients. But the success of his practice also served Shipman's massive ego. In an official statement to the National Health Service in 1998, Shipman felt bold enough to claim that, quote, We are a flagship. The health authority can always compare the quality of this practice
Starting point is 00:08:30 to any other and ask why the other practice is underperforming." And quote. Shipman himself felt like he won the lottery. He was finally working for himself, respected by his patients, and free to kill as he pleased. The Market Street years represented the most prolific years of Shipman's murderous career. Investigators later confirmed that Shipman killed at least 143 of his patients between the years of 1992 and 1998. And with many more deaths, suspect of foul play.
Starting point is 00:09:03 That's quite a lot of victims. Do you have any insight into why Shipman killed so many during this time? Well, as we discussed last week, the majority of Shipman's victims in Todd Morden were elderly women. It's suspected that these women reminded him of his mother, who died when Shipman was just 17 years old. Right. He watched his mother suffer through her cancer. He also watched her doctor ease that suffering with morphine. This combination, elderly woman killed with morphine, probably influenced Shipman's modus operandi.
Starting point is 00:09:33 He may have even seen his early killings as helping to ease suffering, a twisted justification in his mind. But soon, the health of the patient didn't matter. Just as Shipman had gotten addicted to pethadine in his early years, he had turned his mercy killing into an addiction also. Earlier in his career, Shipman went on long breaks between his murders, usually when he believed he had aroused suspicion. But his years at Market Street show less and less of that behavior.
Starting point is 00:10:00 Without anyone to keep an eye on him, his need for self-preservation was gone. Not only did the frequency of his kills increase, but so did the scope of his victims. Some were older, like 90-year-old Charles Killen. Some were younger, like 49-year-old Marine Ward. He killed men and women, the sick and those in excellent health. A small hiccup in an attempted murder of 44-year-old Mrs. Renata Overton did slow shipment down, though. Mrs. Overton's daughter Sharon called Fred Shipman to her house in late February of 1994 to help her mother with an asthma attack. She never expected that to be the last time she saw her mother awake.
Starting point is 00:10:43 After leaving Shipman alone to take care of her mother, Sharon found herself called back not five minutes later. Shipman told Sharon that her mother was in serious condition and needed an ambulance, right before he injected her with diomorphine. The ambulance arrived to take Renata away. but Shipman didn't accompany the Overton's to the hospital, thinking his murderous job had been done. But despite Shipman's intentions, Mrs. Renata Overton did not die. Maybe Shipman didn't administer a high enough dose to the 44-year-old Renata, younger than his typical victim. Or maybe the paramedics that arrived on the scene managed to save Mrs. Overton's life for time. But the fact remains, Mrs. Overton didn't die that night, and that meant trouble for Shipman.
Starting point is 00:11:28 He had to admit to the paramedics who arrived that he had given her dimorphine, something a doctor never should have given to a woman who had just suffered an asthma attack. Shipman would wait in agony for the other shoe to drop. Would the paramedics lodge a complaint? Even worse, would Mrs. Overton wake up and tell the truth of what happened. But Shipman's luck hadn't run out. For reasons unknown, a formal complaint was never lodged against Shipman. And Mrs. Overton remained in a vegetative state.
Starting point is 00:11:58 date until her death, 14 months later. Shipman's paranoia spiked, however. He had left Donnybrook to get away from that feeling, but now it was back and deeply uncomfortable. So uncomfortable that it kept him from killing again for several months. Investigators hypothesized that this event forced Shipman to destroy a stash of illicit dimorphine that he had kept. He wouldn't kill again until he acquired a new batch.
Starting point is 00:12:25 Shipman's sneaky stashing of drugs is part of the reason he was able to get away with his murders for so long. He would routinely order diomorphine, his weapon of choice, in the name of his patients, telling the pharmacy he had prescribed it to a patient who would never need it, and then keeping the supply for himself. Diomorphine is similar to morphine, but works quicker, making it a perfect weapon for the stealthy shipment. In fact, many of shipment's murders coincide with filled prescriptions of diomorphine. This rapid turnaround further fuels the theory that Shipman had become addicted to murder. Like a junkie getting high, Shipman was addicted to murder. And with as many murders as there were,
Starting point is 00:13:08 it was surprising that Shipman wasn't caught sooner. It makes sense, seeing as that he was left to his own practice and no longer had strict oversight. That's partly true. But he still had to have cremation form signed, and that required additional health advisors. After opening his Market Street practice in 1992, Shipman arranged an informal agreement with the fine doctors at the Brook practice just across the street. In England at the time, all cremations required a confirmatory examination from another doctor who would then sign off on Form C. Form C came about mostly because of violent deaths, where the cause of death might be suspect or difficult to ascertain. For natural deaths, however, Form C was considered redundant, and most doctors took on the role cavalierly.
Starting point is 00:13:54 However, it was still an additional oversight, and one shipment found a way to avoid. Dr. Rajesh Patel, one of the doctors at Brooke, accustomed to signing cremation forms for shipment, would later go on to say that Shipman made all his cremation requests in person, walking across the street to the practice, and always carrying a large stack of patient records. Dr. Patel says Shipman's confidence is what would sell him and the other doctors on signing off on the cremation forms. but Shipman's bravado was a performance, and his patient records, a prop. Dr. Patel recounted that he once raised a question about why Shipman was present during the death of a patient, saying it was unusual for a doctor to make as many house calls as Shipman did.
Starting point is 00:14:39 Shipman answered in kind, yelling at the doctor, about how doctors nowadays didn't have the decency to visit their patients. This is a classic example of the duality of Shipman. On one hand, he was attacking Patel's clinic. ability to shield himself from further questioning. On the other hand, he was getting a chance to brag about his skills as a doctor. This tactic worked with Dr. Patel. But there was another doctor at the Brook practice, Dr. Linda Reynolds,
Starting point is 00:15:07 who couldn't shake the feeling that something was off about the good doctor. Despite the show Shipman put on, his addiction to killing was getting out of hand, and the body count was becoming too high to ignore. In March of 1998, Dr. Reynolds, noticed that her practice, with multiple doctors and 9,500 registered patients, had only signed 14 death certificates, whereas Shipman, a sole practitioner with around 3,000 patients, had signed over 16 certificates in the same amount of time. Dr. Reynolds put in a complaint to local authorities who didn't take it seriously. Everyone knew and loved to Shipman. Police
Starting point is 00:15:47 all but ignored Dr. Reynolds until Shipman committed his last, most elaborate murder that would lead to his eventual downfall. Our story will continue in a moment after a brief message. And now, back to serial killers. At 81 years old, Kathleen Grundy was like many of Shipman's victims, an elderly woman who lived alone and thought highly of Shipman as a general practitioner. However, Mrs. Grundy had a few distinctions. She enjoyed a high degree of popularity in Hyde, considering she used to be the mayor.
Starting point is 00:16:24 And she was among Shipman's wealthier cash. of clients. Shipman began laying the plans for her murder on June 9, 1998, when he asked Mrs. Grundy to come into his office and get some blood work done. At the end of the appointment, he had her sign a few papers before sending her off. Mrs. Grundy thought she was signing papers related to the blood test, but really, she was signing a forgery of her own will. Prior to Mrs. Grundy's death, Shipman had shown some signs of greed. In 1997, he asked the brother of one of his victims if he could have her sewing machine, which he allowed. In 1985, he asked one of his victims' family members if he could keep his victim's parakeet. This request was not allowed. And although
Starting point is 00:17:08 very few of Shipman's victims had left the doctor some money in their wills, nothing suggests that Shipman forced himself into their last testaments, not like he did with Mrs. Grundy. Shipman's forged will went as such, quote, I give all my estate, money, and house to my doctor. My family are not in need, and I want to reward him for all the care he has given to me and the people of Hyde. The sum would amount to 386,402 pounds, plus two homes Mrs. Grundy owned. Quite a large reward, considering the care he was conspiring to give Mrs. Grundy. Fred Shipman murdered Kathleen Grundy in her own home on the morning of June 24, 1998. Two of her friends found her body, dressed to go out,
Starting point is 00:17:55 by noon that same day. Upon hearing of the grim discovery, Shipman immediately called the local police to let them know he had visited Mrs. Grundy that morning, and she had complained of feeling unwell. Her death certificate prepared by Shipman would say she died of natural causes. The next day, Shipman said about creating another forgery, an artificial timeline of Mrs. Grundy's appearances in his office, and his attempt to lay clues that she had been a drug addict. In one of these false entries dated a year earlier, he wrote, quote, had every drug possible, pupil small, dry mouth, possible drug abuse again, denies taking any drugs other than for irritable bowels, end quote. And on an entry from November, the prior
Starting point is 00:18:42 year he wrote, quote, denies everything, still clinically nothing of note to confirm my suspicions, end quote. These were absurd accusations for shipment to make, but they were made all the more suspicious because Shipman put all of these entries into the computer within a span of six minutes the day after she died. To make matters more suspicious, Mrs. Grundy's quote-unquote new will arrived at the law firm of Hamilton Ward on the same day she died. A week later, Hamilton Ward received word that Mrs. Grundy had died in a correspondence signed by someone named Jay Smith. Later, prosecutors would find that this note about Mrs. Grundy's death had been written on the same typewriter used to type up her new will. The whole situation reeked of forgery.
Starting point is 00:19:32 The will was poorly typed and incoherent. The timing of its arrival was suspicious. And what's more, the Hamilton Ward firm had never dealt with Mrs. Grundy's legal business before. All of Mrs. Grundy's affairs had been handled by her daughter, Angela Woodruff, who had written up a will with her mother years earlier. And with receiving word from Hamilton Ward about the new will, Angela was at a loss. She said, quote, the whole thing was just unbelievable. The thought of mom signing a document so badly typed,
Starting point is 00:20:02 leaving everything to her doctor just didn't make any sense. It was inconceivable, end quote. Inconceivable. So inconceivable that it took time for Angela to go to the police. She said, quote, for us to believe that the doctor had possibly forged a will, had possibly killed my mother, was a huge gap to cross, end quote.
Starting point is 00:20:23 But Angela couldn't have known about the prior complaint lodged by Dr. Linda Reynolds at the Brook practice. Dr. Reynolds' inquiry to the police had been flatly dismissed. But this was the second complaint of its kind. Unlike most of Shipman's victims, Mrs. Grundy wasn't cremated. Had she been, police may have never found the evidence that would lead to shipment's arrest. Risking embarrassment if they found nothing, police had Mrs. Grundy's body exhumed on August 1, 1998. Days later, toxicology reports proved that Mrs. Grundy had been killed by a lethal dose of dimorphine. This was a difficult pill for investigators to swallow.
Starting point is 00:21:03 Could a doctor, especially one as renowned as Shipman, really have killed one of his patients? Even though Shipman was the one under question, it was the police that felt guilty for investigating, such as the power of exalted positions like our doctors. The police had to do their duty and look into Shipman. files and patient records. Perhaps there would be some explanation. What they found instead was shipment's typewriter. The same one used to forge Mrs. Grundy's will,
Starting point is 00:21:32 as well as write the letter informing Hamilton Ward of Mrs. Grundy's death. Looking further into shipments' files and taking into account Dr. Reynolds' concern about the excess cremations, the investigators began to worry. When comparing shipments' accounts of his patient's deaths to the records of ambulance calls and shipment's whereabouts. It appeared that shipment had lied on a number of death certificates regarding the circumstances of the death and what he had and had not done. The enormity of shipment's crimes were setting in for investigators. And rumors had also started to spread among the people of Hyde. By the end of August, no arrest had been made. But word had gotten out that
Starting point is 00:22:13 something fishy might be going on with the good doctor. A testament to shipment's reputation, Many of his patients found the entire situation to be ridiculous. In fact, there were cries against the police by the people of Hyde for investigating this sweet old doctor who had treated them so well. While that's what the people of Hyde were vocalizing, it's difficult to discern what Shipman was thinking. Certainly he had been cooperative in the investigation. He had handed over his typewriter right away,
Starting point is 00:22:42 only to say that he had lent it to Mrs. Grundy. He told investigators about the numerous patient deaths he had been having, only to tell them he had conducted his own investigation and found nothing wrong. Shipman was taking the same approach with the police that he had used with the doctors at the Brook practice. He was performing, confidently stating falsehoods in the hope that he could sway their opinions. But the evidence was mounting. Police couldn't find Mrs. Grundy's fingerprints on Shipman's typewriter, and the discrepancies between Shipman's accounts of patient deaths and what actually happened were coming to light. After receiving confirmation from
Starting point is 00:23:19 a forensic scientist that Mrs. Grundy had indeed died of a lethal morphine injection, police arrested Fred Shipman on September 7, 1998, for the suspected murder of Kathleen Grundy and an attempt to forge your will. What police would uncover over the next several months would shock those who were treated by shipment and change medical treatment in England forever. We'll return to our story in just a moment. Own it all. Pay off your home, travel for life, Drive a Ferrari. In celebration of the world premiere of the Monopoly Big Board Buckslot Machine by Aristocrat Gaming,
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Starting point is 00:24:46 And now back to serial killers. In the days before Fred Shipman's arrest, the media was having a field day. By now, word had gotten out that the family doctor in Hyde, England, was the monster down the street. You have to understand how unbelievable this would have been to the people of Hyde. Shipman was a treasured member of the community. Peter Wagstaff, son of Kathleen Wagstaff, who had been taken care of by Shipman, and thought highly of him until her death on December 9, 1997, even sent the doctor a letter of support.
Starting point is 00:25:17 However, as the media attention surrounding Shipman ramped up, Mr. Wagstaff decided to check on the circumstances surrounding his mother's death. He saw in Shipman's report that Shipman claimed to have called an ambulance, but no phone records at the time showed that that was true. He immediately turned from a shipment supporter to a grieving family member of a victim. Peter brought the information he had discovered to the police. Overwhelming evidence was mounting against shipment, from family accounts to record discrepancies and the forged will.
Starting point is 00:25:49 but the police needed more physical evidence, and that meant that the police needed to exhume more bodies. Aside for Mrs. Grundy, eight other shipment victims would be dug up over the coming months. Eventually, shipment would be charged with their murders, along with the murders of six other women who had been cremated, including Mrs. Wagstaff. And while the media was busy speculating about the motives of Dr. Death,
Starting point is 00:26:14 as he was now called, investigators were having a tough time cracking shipment himself. When Shipman was brought in for questioning, he frustrated investigators with his arrogance and staunch denial. All Shipman ever had was his reputation, and he was not going to let it go down at flames. He never admitted to any of the murders. Remember how he began forging records to say that Mrs. Grundy was a drug addict? Listen to him to defend that argument to police. She did have drugs available.
Starting point is 00:26:44 She may well have given herself accidentally an overdose. I suggest you that you have injected. This is grunted with a fatal overdose of death. No. And you tell me that people in Hyde don't have access to drugs. Kind of unbelievable. Police had overwhelming evidence of shipment's murders, and yet he never admitted to anything.
Starting point is 00:27:06 That's not to say that these encounters didn't rattle him. As Dame Janet Smith wrote in her inquiry, quote, As the evidence was put to him, his attitude gradually changed until at the end of 5th October, when it was clear that the police knew that he had falsified medical records on his computer,
Starting point is 00:27:24 he broke down and was unable to continue with the interview. Though Shipman's confidence was shaken, he stood with his guns. When his trial officially commenced, a year later, Shipman pled not guilty to the 15 counts of murder brought against him as well as forgery. It took five months for the proceedings to take place, but on January 30th, 2000, Fred Shipman was convicted on all counts and sentenced to 15 consecutive life terms.
Starting point is 00:27:54 The public was outraged over the whole ordeal. People were astounded that a doctor like Shipman could kill 15 of his patients. Their outrage only grew as the victim count increased. Investigators kept releasing names of potential victims, usually brought up by family members who had a mother or grandmother die suddenly under Shipman's care. Even during the trial, 23 more potential cases were discovered. It eventually got to the point that the court couldn't bring any more charges against shipment, partly because the media attention surrounding him made it impossible for him to receive a fair trial,
Starting point is 00:28:30 and partly because there was no greater punishment that could be inflicted upon shipment. Shipman would be spending the rest of his life behind bars. The public demanded an inquiry into shipment's murders. the inquiry revealed that Shipman was easily Britain's most prolific serial killer in history. At least 215 murders confirmed by police, with suspicion of at least 45 more. We'll never know how many people Shipman really killed, how many lives he tore apart in an attempt to satisfy an addiction to murder and his ego. But we do know that one murder brought him down, Kathleen Grundy.
Starting point is 00:29:10 It wasn't even the way in which he killed her that brought him. attention to his murders. It was the attempted forging of her will. Of Kathleen Grunney, the very sort of... That was Steve Panter, author of Addicted to Murder, who speculated that we may have had many more Shipman murders had it not been for this pesky will. So why did Shipman forge it? Well, it's possible that Shipman was scared of himself. He had been killing so frequently and for so long that consciously or otherwise, he may have needed a break system. How do you mean? Well, had Shipman
Starting point is 00:29:55 been successful in killing Mrs. Grundy undetected, and successful in receiving his supposed inheritance, he would have had enough money to retire from his small practice. There are reports of Shipman discussing plans to retire away to France, especially around the time of Mrs. Grundy's murder. But at the same time, the forgery was so obvious, beyond simple and poorly manufactured. Not only was the Will practically a cry for help, but Shipman also knew of Mrs. Grundy and her family, namely that Mrs. Grundy's daughter was a solicitor. Of course she would have a working knowledge of her mother's will. What you're saying is that Shipman wanted to be caught?
Starting point is 00:30:34 Well, at the very least, Shipman wanted to stop, but couldn't. In Shipman's ideal situation, maybe he could have stopped after murdering Mrs. Grundy, taking his supposed inheritance and escaping to France with his family. But Shipman met a more fitting end behind bars. But a life behind bars was too much for Shipman to be. bear. And on January 13th, 2004, the evening before his 58th birthday, Harold Frederick Shipman used his bedsheets to hang himself in his cell. I thought that possibly such an arrogant man couldn't probably deal with the... That was Steve Panter again, giving insight into Shipman's state of mind. It's rare for serial killers to commit suicide. They don't feel empathy for
Starting point is 00:31:29 their victims, so it's unlikely that a sense of guilt would drive them to kill themselves. Most serial killers kill themselves out of a sense of narcissism, while some see arrest and notoriety as validation for their crimes, to a killer like Shipman, prison would keep him from living his ideal life, one where he could kill freely, live peacefully with his family, and, most importantly, be seen as a pillar of the community. Though Shipman likely killed himself in part because of his environmental suffering, there were also monetary factors at play. Shipman's wife, Primrose, had to be a lot of his environmental suffering. Shipman's wife Primrose had been left with four children
Starting point is 00:32:06 and a resounding feeling in her bones that her husband wasn't guilty but a feeling doesn't do much good for a woman with mouths to feed by killing himself before he turned 60 Shipman made certain that his entire pension from the National Health Service would go to Primrose once news of Shipman's death hit the papers opinions across the country were split to some this robbed the victim's families of real justice
Starting point is 00:32:30 as they never got the chance to hear Shipman confessed to his crimes, to get an understanding of why he had taken so much for so long. To others, this was the well-deserved death of a monster. The Sun newspaper even ran the story on the front page with a headline that said, Ship, ship, hooray. What everyone was in consensus on was that a tragedy like this could never happen again.
Starting point is 00:32:57 Within the shipment inquiry, Dame Janet Smith suggests long, term changes to the National Health Service when it comes to protecting whistleblowers or anyone who might fear repercussions for reporting the suspicions, as well as an authentication process amongst doctors when signing off on death certificates. Though we can hope that these changes that have already gone into effect across Britain can prevent us from having another doctor death situation. For the victims of Britain's most prolific serial killer, these safeguards come too late. Thanks again for tuning into serial killers over the past two weeks as we delved into the life of Harold Frederick Shipman or Dr. Death. If you want to listen to any previous episodes of serial killers, you can find them on iTunes, Google Play, SoundCloud, Stitcher, and Spotify, or on our website, parcast.com.
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