Killer Stories with Harvey Guillén - Mary Bell: England’s Youngest Female Killer

Episode Date: May 13, 2024

At 11, Mary Bell was on trial for not one, but two murders – during which she was often considered a “bad seed” by those who couldn’t comprehend how such a young girl could commit these acts. Keep up with us on Instagram @serialkillerspodcast! Have a story to share? Email us at [e-mail] Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Due to the nature of this case, listener discretion is advised. This episode includes discussions of drug abuse, sexual abuse of minors, harm against minors, mutilation, attempted suicide, and killing. Consider this when deciding how and when you'll listen. To get help on mental health and suicide, visit spotify.com slash resources. In December 1968, Dr. David Westbury sat in his office and picked us. up the phone. The forensic psychiatrist had spent hours and hours calling up every mental health hospital in England. He was running out of options and time. One by one, he crossed them off the list. No hospital wanted to admit his patient. She was currently on trial, and if she became a convicted

killer, she had to be sent somewhere. He just hoped it was someplace that could actually provide the care she needed because his patient, Mary Bell, was an 11-year-old girl. I'm Vanessa Richardson, and this is Serial Killers, a Spotify podcast. You can find us here every Monday. Be sure to check us out on Instagram at Serial Killers Podcast, and we'd love to hear from you, so if you're listening on the Spotify app, swipe up and give us your thoughts. The story you're about to hear is his heart-wrenching. as it is horrifying. It involves children hurting other children. When events like this occur, it captivates our attention because it just feels so unusual. But it does happen. This is the case

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Slow burns, second chances, chemistry you can feel through the screen. Your next obsession is waiting. Watch only on Prime. Most of us would say we're not the same person we were as a child. When we look back and see how far we've come, we'll often discover that we've learned from our mistakes and have changed for the better. But how far does that idea extend?

Can we, for example, absolve a person of their crimes once they've gotten enough distance from them, or are there some marks that never truly wash out? For Mary Bell, that abstract question became a very real problem, because her story, her crimes, were so captivating that they were seared into the public consciousness. And that kind of burn leaves a lasting mark, one that's almost impossible to run from, To understand Mary Bell's story, we need to go back to the year 1956 when her mother, Betty McCricket, first learned she was expecting. Under normal circumstances, this might have been a joyous occasion. For 16-year-old Betty, it was a problem.

She'd been raised a strict Catholic, and she'd broken one of the biggest rules. Don't have sex before you're married. and definitely don't get pregnant. Betty never said who the father was. She simply resorted to calling him the devil. To hide the pregnancy from prying eyes, Betty was sent away from her home in Newcastle, England, to a convent. She stayed there until the spring of 1957,

when she gave birth to a healthy baby girl, Mary. When Mary was still an infant, Betty met Billy Bell. He was a petty criminal who liked to drink, but Betty was smitten. Just weeks after they got together, she was pregnant again, this time with his son, Peter. Betty didn't want to look after the children, and that left Billy to do most of the work. Sure, he was a little annoyed, but it was hard for him to complain. He loved the kids and had a soft spot for his adopted daughter. And as far as Mary knew, Billy was her real dad.

At some point, she even legally took his last name. As the bells embarked on their new life together, the problems started to pile up. When Mary was just one year old, she wound up in the hospital during a visit to her grandmother's house. Here's what happened. Betty's mother, Mrs. McCricket, discovered Mary on the floor with several migraine pills. It was clear she'd already ingested some. Betty feigned innocence and suggested that Mary must have gotten into them herself. Mrs. McCricket found the idea absurd.

She kept her medicine far out of reach. To get them, the baby would have had to scale a chest, open up an old gramophone needle compartment, and somehow managed to get the bottle from its hiding place. Of course, accusing Betty of trying to kill her own daughter was equally absurd. So Mrs. McCricket chose to believe, that it was all a terrible accident and rushed her granddaughter to the hospital. There, doctors and nurses approached

the concerned mother, offering Betty words of comfort, of sympathy. And all that attention felt good. For the past few years, Betty had been criticized and overlooked, but now, people seem to genuinely care about her. They wanted to know how she was doing.

Mary made a full, physical recovery. But around this time, Mary's skin often looked pallid, and she was more on edge. She also began to reject her family members' hugs. People like her Aunt Kath began to worry for Mary's well-being and even made attempts to formally adopt her niece. Even though Betty often admitted that she struggled with two children, she wouldn't hear of letting Mary go permanently. In 1960, Mary had another close call with prescription drugs. Again, Betty swore Mary must have snuck the medication from her purse. Then three-year-old Mary nearly fell out a window while Betty stood by and watched.

Although suspicious, these repeated incidents could be chalked up to Betty's carelessness, but it was definitely intentional when Betty ushered Mary into an adoption agency, a few days later, and sent her daughter home with a stranger. Now, if Betty had her way, this would have been the end of their story together, but her younger sister had secretly tailed her to the adoption agency. By that point, the whole family was starting to worry for Mary's safety. When Betty's mother heard the news, she was furious. She confronted Betty with a clear ultimatum.

Either she got Mary back immediately, or the place. police would get involved. So, Betty begrudgingly convinced the stranger to give Mary back. Mary's family thought they were doing the right thing. In reality, Mary had enjoyed her time at her temporary new home. The woman she stayed with had been kind and doting. She even bought Mary a few dresses. Perhaps if Mary had been allowed to live with someone who wanted her, things may have turned

out differently. Instead, Mary was brought back home. When Mary was four years old, she discovered her mother in a compromising position with a man who wasn't her stepfather. While Billy Bell had been a doting dad, it seems he was always on his way to or from prison. At some point he learned his wife had been seeing other men while he was gone. Soon those affairs turned into her new profession of sex work, which brought in a lot of more money than her factory job. She usually did this work in Glasgow. It had a larger population,

which meant more clients. But one day, Betty brought one of them home. When Mary interrupted them, Betty's client quickly pulled up his pants and fled the scene. Betty, however, flew into a rage. She made a beeline for Mary and started hitting and screaming at her. Then she grabbed her daughter her by the hair and dragged her from the room. Not long after this incident, Betty began forcing Mary into a string of sexual acts with different men. Usually, these assaults took place in their own living room. Occasionally, though, Betty brought Mary to the clients.

Afterward, Betty was always kinder to her daughter. She'd give Mary sweets or potato chips, and she stopped calling her names and hurting her. Of course, this never lasted long. Betty abused Mary in more ways than one, and she threatened to lock Mary away if she told anyone about the assaults. Like most four-year-olds, Mary believed her mother. She was so scared that even when her mother was away and she was alone with Billy, she didn't say a word to him.

He had no idea what was going on. The echoes of abuse followed Mary wherever she went. In the fall of 1961, when the five-year-old started kindergarten, teachers noted that she exhibited some strange behavior. It started out small. She'd hide under desks and refuse to come out, or she'd yank hairs out of people's legs for attention. She also kicked and nipped at other kids. Then one day, Mary squeezed her hands around a classmate's throat. When her teacher put a stop to it, Mary, curious, asked, whether doing such a thing might kill the boy.

According to Albert Bandura's social learning theory, children model their behaviors after their caregivers. If there's violence in the home, the child may learn that aggression is the way to deal with conflicts and mimic their caregivers' violent behavior against their peers. For Mary, who was choked and beaten at home, it makes sense that she would try out those same actions at school. Additionally, according to the National Child Traumatic Stress Network, children who have been abused may experience depression, anxiety, and difficulty-making friends in school. Unfortunately, it seems Mary's teachers weren't aware of the psychology behind her outbursts.

They just saw her as a troublemaker, so instead of providing her with proper treatment, they ignored her bids for connection. And with no real help, Mary kept lashing out. She continued bullying the other kids until no one wanted to be around her, and she was left all on her own. Yet she didn't want to be alone, suffering in secret. It's possible she desperately needed someone to pay attention to her, and one way or another, she was going to find someone who did.

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By the time she was eight, Mary Bell had survived years of sexual and physical abuse. In 1967, Mary found someone she identified with. That year, Mary's mother, Betty, moved the family to a more respectable neighborhood. By that stage, Betty was going to Glasgow for all her work, leaving nine-year-old Mary behind for days at a time. With her newfound freedom, the first thing on Mary, was to make friends. So of course, she noticed the family right next door had 11 kids. That's how Mary met her friend, an 11-year-old girl will call Danielle. Like Mary, Danielle felt overlooked.

She was constantly forgotten in the chaos and commotion of her household, so much so that she'd even run away on occasion. She'd also shared Mary's love for trouble. Even before meeting Mary, Danielle had gotten into fights with the other kids at school. The two became fast friends. Despite the age difference, Danielle was more than willing to play the role of sidekick. She went wherever Mary was and did just as she said. And the two girls loved to egg each other on. One day, Danielle dared Mary to walk across some exposed pipes on the side of a bridge.

Never mind the fact that if she fell, she'd probably plunged to her death in the ravine below. Mary wasn't one to back down, and she walked across the pipes. Danielle didn't want to be called chicken, so she followed in her young friend's footsteps. According to a study published in the journal Developmental Science, there's a biological reason for kids being susceptible to dares. That's because the body goes through a lot of changes during puberty. The brain, for instance, produces a lot more dopamine. That's the neurotransmitter that increases. when the brain's reward system is triggered. And so with this influx of dopamine, kids have a hyperactive reward center.

At the same time, their brains haven't fully developed a self-regulation system, so kids are constantly looking for the things that feel good and don't put much thought into the consequences. One of the strongest rewards during childhood is peer approval. In Mary's case, she wanted Danielle to like her. She was so desperate for that approval, she overlooked all the potential risks of her actions, even when it meant hurting someone else. Which is exactly what happened on May 11, 1968. That day, Mary and Danielle thought it'd be a good idea to break into the local factory.

They had no real plan beyond that. They just figured it would be fun. The thing is, they weren't alone. Mary's cousin, a three-year-old who will call Nick, followed them inside. Mary didn't want some toddler hanging around, so she told him to go away. When he didn't listen, Mary got annoyed and gave him a little shove. He stumbled and fell down a small incline. But Nick just stood up and waddled after the girls. Mary gave him one more warning, threatening to push him again. and when he still didn't leave them alone, she grabbed him and dropped him over a ledge.

Mary later claimed that there was barely a drop. She wasn't even trying to hurt him, but Nick did get hurt. He hit his head in the fall and started sobbing uncontrollably. It seems the girls must have threatened Nick to keep quiet because even once his parents called the police, the boy was too scared to tell them the truth. The authorities questioned Mary and Danielle, but no one really suspected them of any wrongdoing. With no other leads or clear motives, the cops ended up riding the whole thing off as an accident. Unfortunately, that taught Mary a powerful lesson.

As far as she could tell, there were no real consequences for bad behavior. She could do whatever she wanted, hurt whoever she wanted. Two weeks later, Mary really put this theory to the test. It was the day before Mary's 11th birthday. As usual, she was left on her own. She aimlessly wandered the streets, looking for something to do. Eventually, she spotted an abandoned building and went inside to explore. When Mary first spotted Martin, she told him to go home.

But just like Nick, he didn't listen to her. frustrated she grabbed the boy so forcefully that he cried. Then she let go and warned him to leave for a second time. Despite all the tears, Martin didn't run away or shout for help. He didn't seem scared at all. He just waited to see what she'd do next. At that moment, something happened to marry. Years later, she'd describe it as a void washing over her.

She wasn't angry or excited. There was no emotion whatsoever in her actions. She simply told Martin to put his hands around her throat. He did, as she said, probably thinking it was some sort of game. She put her own hands around his throat too. And then she pressed down and she didn't let go. In a matter of minutes, Martin was dead. When Mary stepped away and took in the scene, she got excited.

She'd never seen a dead body up close before, and she couldn't wait to tell her best friend about it. Mary raced to Danielle's house. As expected, Danielle was fascinated by Mary's tale. She wanted to see the body for herself. But by the time the girls made their way back to the abandoned house, it was too late. Three schoolboys had already stumbled upon Martin,

body and notified the authorities. The police were dumbfounded by Martin's death. There were no visible wounds, no signs of foul play, and seemingly no motive. It was a total mystery. So they declared his death an accident. But Mary and Danielle knew the truth. Four days after his death, Danielle dared Mary to ask Martin's mother if she could see him in his coffin. It was a twisted challenge, but Mary never backed down from a dare. Besides, Mary had her own reasons for visiting Martin's house. According to her, she wanted to see if he was still alive. Even then, Mary didn't quite grasp the finality of death. Research suggests that children can reach a mature understanding, of death anywhere between four and 12 years old.

11-year-old Mary was at the older end of that range. However, she was still young enough for death to be a foreign concept. In the weeks following Martin's death, Mary continued acting out. She and Danielle broke into a nearby school and vandalized it, leaving behind a note that read, We did murder Martin Brown. Then they ran away from, from their families.

If Mary was subconsciously asking for attention, she got it. Unfortunately, it wasn't the kind of care she really needed. As soon as she was brought back home by police, Betty beat her. Before the end of the summer, Mary claimed another victim. On July 31, 1968, Mary and Danielle were playing in the street outside their homes. That's when they saw their neighbor, three-year-old Brian Howe, with his older brother. The two boys were messing around with a pair of scissors. At that moment, an idea popped into Mary's head.

They waited for the older boy to leave. Then they approached Brian and told him to follow them somewhere else. They wanted to play. The little boy had no reason not to trust them and willingly followed. When Danielle asked for the scissors, he had to be. them right over. Mary led them all down into the tin Lizzie, which was what they called the garbage dump across the train tracks. Local kids often played there, but on that day, they were alone, just the three of them. As the sun began to set, Mary turned to Brian. She grabbed and

choked him. This was a very different experience than when she strangled Martin Brown. Back then, it was almost like she'd been in a trance. She was gentle and distant. Now she seemed focused and violent. According to Danielle, she told Mary to let Brian go. When Mary refused and asked her to take over, Danielle decided enough was enough. She dropped the scissors and ran away. Even with her partner in crime gone, Mary didn't let up. Shortly after, Mary went over to Danielle's and asked her to come back to the Tin Lizzie. That's where Danielle found Brian's body. Then she watched as Mary produced a razor blade and mutilated Brian. When Mary was finished, she hid the razor blade under a concrete block and the girls went back home. Then they sat on Mary's doorstep and waited

for the chaos to begin. Around five that afternoon, Brian's older sister realized he was missing, She went outside and asked Mary and Danielle if they'd seen Brian. They both said no, but offered to help look for him. Deep down, Mary and Danielle both got a kick out of knowing something no one else did, and being involved in the search party made it even more exciting. They knew better than to lead Brian's family right to the Tin Lizzie, though, so hours later the police were called in. It didn't take them long to discover Brian.

Around 11 p.m. that night, sirens blared through the neighborhood, waking everyone up. Mary got out of bed and made her way downstairs, where she found her dad on the porch. Like their other neighbors, Billy had stepped outside to watch the cops speeding by. When she asked him what was going on, Billy told her that the police had found Brian Howe. In response, all Mary said was, oh, she didn't have to ask where he was. She already knew. She didn't have to ask if he was dead. She already knew.

Detective Chief Inspector James Dobson was called in to lead the investigation. Right off the bat, he assumed that this had to be the work of a very sick man. But as he took a closer look at the evidence, he doubted whether that was true. The marks on Brian's neck were very light. It seemed impossible that an adult could have been so gentle while strangling him. Strange as it sounded, Dobson suspected that the culprit had to be a child. So over the next 24 hours, Dobson and his officers questioned over 1,200 Newcastle kids and their parents. And a few of them were invited back for another chat, including Mary and Anne.

Mary and Danielle. At the time, Mary's mom, Betty, was away in Glasgow, so her stepfather, Billy, was in charge. Remember, he had a long history with the police. Whether or not he suspected his daughter of foul play, he certainly didn't want to give authorities any ammo. As far as he was concerned, when the cops came calling, you said nothing.

So he coached Mary to be evasive, and she dodged all the officers. questions. Danielle's parents, on the other hand, wanted their daughter to be honest about what she knew. One detective she spoke to noted that Danielle's answers felt off-putting, as if she were joking. Each girl told the cops they'd seen Brian around 12.30 p.m. They also claimed they'd been on their own and not with each other. Dobson found that suspicious. Here were two best friends who had both seen the slain boy at the same time of day, and yet he was supposed to believe that they hadn't been together? Something just wasn't right. So Dobson sent his officers to follow up with

the girls again. This time, Mary changed her story and made a crucial mistake. She said she'd seen an eight-year-old neighbor who will call Adam playing with Brian right before his death. She'd even witnessed this boy strike Brian. Then to top it all off, she told the detective Adam had been carrying a pair of silver scissors. The police were easily able to disprove Mary's story. Adam had an airtight alibi, and yet Mary somehow knew about the scissors found near Brian's body, a detail the authorities hadn't mentioned to anyone. On August 4th, Dobson sat down with Danielle, and laid out everything he knew. Then he hit her with the big finish.

He thought she was involved in the murder. He probably figured that out of the two, Daniel was more likely to crack. And it worked. Danielle burst into tears and started to confess, as proof she offered to show Dobson where Mary hid the razor blade she used to mutilate Brian.

Fifteen minutes later, they were at the crime scene, where Danielle pointed to a concrete block. Officers lifted it up to find the bloodied blade. Two hours later, officers collected Mary from her house and brought her down to the station. Every outfit starts with a choice. What am I wearing underneath? Something comfortable? And let's be honest, something that keeps everything looking smooth. That's where Vanity Fair lingerie comes in. Their new smoothing wireless bra has four-way stretch fabric for all for smoothing, soft lightly lined cups for a natural shape, and no wire comfort that last all day.

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Enjoying Activia twice today. for two weeks as part of a balanced diet and healthy lifestyle may help reduce the frequency of minor digestive discomfort, which includes gas, bloating, rumbling, and abdominal discomfort. On August 7, 1968, three-year-old Brian Howe was carried away from his home in a small coffin. It was the day of his funeral. His neighbor, Mary Bell, reportedly watched and laughed. Detective Chief Inspector James Dobson had questioned Mary and Danielle. several times now, and was on the verge of closing the case. But the girl's stories kept changing.

Danielle claimed Mary had strangled Brian. When he brought Mary into the interrogation room, she pinned the whole thing on Danielle. While Dobson doubted that Mary's version was true, it had essentially become a case of she said she said. It was one girl's word over another. So with nothing else to work with, it was up to the courts to figure out who was really at fault. That very same day, both Mary Bell and Danielle Dunlop were charged with the murder of Brian Howe.

Soon after that, police reopened the case of Martin Brown. Neither girl had mentioned him during the interrogations, but given the similarities between both cases, Dobson had a hunch that the two deaths were connected. True, there was only circumstantial evidence tying them to Martin's death. It was damning all the same. By the time the girls went to court later that year, they were each charged with murder for both deaths. At their hearing in December of 1968,

both Mary and Danielle testified against each other, but their temperaments couldn't have. have been more different. On the stand, Danielle acted how most people imagined a 13-year-old girl would in this situation. She struggled to keep up with and understand the trial. She cried or struggled to find the right words. Through it all, her family showered her with love and support. Mary couldn't say the same of her family. While her father tried to keep her spirits up during breaks, her mother was clearly upset. Betty had seemed to always resent her daughter, and now she'd brought public shame on the family. Perhaps that's why Mary remained quiet and stoic in the courtroom.

She never shed a tear or showed any signs of remorse. Later, she recalled thinking the trial had nothing to do with her. It was like she was watching a TV show about someone else. She also hadn't been sleeping, and it apparently showed. The problem was that her demeanor made Mary look like she didn't care. As a result, it was easy to cast her as the villain. But it wasn't only Danielle's testimony that painted a grim picture of Mary. Court-appointed psychologists testified that Mary showed classic symptoms of psychopathy. Officially, that's a neuropsychiatric disorder.

Common signs include a lack of empathy, inappropriate emotional responses, and no self-control. As a result, psychopathic individuals are generally antisocial. They're also much more likely to be involved in criminal activity. Some research has shown psychopathic traits can be identified in children as young as two or three. Children usually aren't labeled as psychopaths. Instead, they may be diagnosed with conduct disorder, which carries many of the same traits. Without intervention, these children may grow up to become psychopaths and are up to three

times more likely to commit crimes or display aggressive behavior. Luckily, recent research has shown that early recognition and treatment of conduct disorder can reduce the severity of a child psychopathy down the road. It can even reduce the likelihood they'll commit serious crimes in adulthood. For years, Mary said she'd been physically and second. abused by her mother, and research suggests that an adverse upbringing may be one of the key factors that could contribute to the disorder. But none of this trauma was ever mentioned at the trial, because Mary still didn't know how to talk about it, and because she didn't speak up, experts just labeled her a psychopath

and moved on. From there, her fate was sealed. In December 17th, the jury found 11-year-old Mary Bell guilty of two counts of manslaughter. The judge ordered Mary to be detained at Her Majesty's pleasure, which in England basically meant that she was given an indefinite sentence. Hearing that, Mary showed a sign of real emotion for the first time during the entire trial, she began to cry. Meanwhile, on the other side of the room, Danielle was overwhelmed with relief.

She was acquitted of all charges, and as one girl reunited with her family, the other was led away by guards. If this crime were to happen today, it's possible Mary would be sent to the children's ward of a mental health hospital to receive proper treatment. But in 1968, research into psychopathy was in its infancy. Treatment wasn't thought to be possible, and there wasn't a hospital in the entire country dedicated to children's mental health. So Mary's psychologist, Dr. Westbury, ran out of options.

Instead, Mary was sent to an English reform school called Red Bank. Technically it was an all-boys facility, but they made special arrangements for her to attend. At first, she didn't mind her new digs. Red Bank offered an excellent education, and she even got to spend time in the art room, drawing. Most importantly, it was a chance to get away from her mother. Of course, Betty Bell had no intention of letting her daughter go, and visited at least once a month. Mary had complicated feelings about that. On the one hand, she was still a child, who was excited to see her mom.

But after each of Betty's visits, Mary seemed to regress. She'd get aggressive and act as though rules didn't apply to her. She fought with the other kids, swore at teachers, and lied. School officials noticed the pattern and tried to stop Betty from visiting, but they were informed that they couldn't stop a mother from seeing her child, no matter how badly it affected the kid. Unfortunately, Betty wasn't the only one hurting Mary. One night in 1970, the 13-year-old was alone in her room

when a teacher will call Mr. Williams stepped inside. He'd had his eye on Mary, he said. That night was the first time Mr. Williams sexually assaulted Mary. Mary didn't have the capacity to understand what was going on, but after the third assault, another. teacher caught wind of what was happening. Mary begged her not to say anything because she thought no one would believe her and that it would only cause trouble. The teacher went ahead and reported it anyway. Sadly, Mary was right. The headmaster didn't buy the story about Mr. Williams and swept it

all under the rug. The next few years of Mary's life continued to be a living hell. Though she tried her best, she didn't have any proper coping mechanisms to process her trauma. Then in 1973, she turned 16 and everything changed. In the eyes of the law, Mary was now an adult, and she was transferred to a woman's prison called Style. Mary had trouble adjusting to her new environment. She fought with other inmates and gave the guards attitude. As punishment, they'd throw her in solitary for weeks on end. While in style, Mary attempted suicide on two occasions. Instead of receiving psychiatric help after these incidents,

Mary was sent to solitary again. As far as she could tell, there was no winning. That was until 1980, when 23-year-old Mary finally got some good news, After 12 years behind bars, she was being released. Things were still rocky at first. Mary had to move back in with Betty, who kept her daughter isolated. After all, journalists were hounding Mary for her story, and Betty knew she'd have a lot of unsavory things to say about her childhood.

Unsurprisingly, the two didn't always see eye to eye, and Betty kicked Mary out. But Mary didn't mind, and sometime later she had a daughter of her own. We'll call her Alice. Alice was everything to marry. In fact, when she first saw her baby girl, the whole world seemed to shift. She was hit with that unconditional, overwhelming kind of love. Mary knew from then on that her life would forever revolve around Alice.

It was around this time that Mary asked for legal anonymity. Now that she had a daughter, she needed better protection. She wouldn't let Alice suffer for what Mary had done as a child. Eventually, the courts responded to Mary's request, and for the second time in UK's history, granted Mary and her daughter lifelong immunity. In part, they said, because Mary was at, quote, considerable risk of press intrusion.

See, a couple of years prior, Mary sold her story to journalist Gita Serini, who'd covered Mary's trial back in 1968. Serini's book about Mary caused a stir. But it wasn't the horrific abuse Mary endured that angered the public. It was the money. People didn't think it was right for Mary to profit off her crimes, and they wanted to let her know that. Soon there was a media circus outside of Mary's new home. She refused to talk to any reporters.

She just wanted to be left alone. By now, Alice was a teenager. She knew something strange was happening with her mom. Only Mary had never told her daughter about her past. They were all living under aliases, and Mary had thought it would stay that way for a very long time. But now, there was no hiding what she'd done. Mary had to tell Alice the third.

The truth. Fortunately, Alice took it all in stride and did what so many couldn't. She forgave her mother. Even at 14, she understood that Mary wasn't the same person she'd been as a kid. As an adult, Mary made it clear that she did not think her tragic past excused her crimes in any way. And yet, it's hard not to wish she'd been surrounded by adults who recognized her her need for treatment, and to hope that our modern understanding of childhood psychopathy prevention

renders these tragedies obsolete. Thanks for listening to Serial Killers, a Spotify podcast. We're here with a new episode every Monday. Be sure to check us out on Instagram at Serial Killers Podcast, and we'd love to hear from you, so if you're listening on the Spotify app, swipe up and give us your thoughts. For more information on Mary Bell, amongst the many sources we used, we found cries unheard by Gita Serini, extremely helpful to our research. Stay safe out there. Serial Killers is a Spotify podcast.

This episode was written by Alex Burns, edited by Jane O, Joel Callan, and Mickey Taylor, researched and edited by Chelsea Wood, fact-checked by Haley Milliken and Lori Siegel, and sound designed by Kellynne. Kelly Gary. Our head of programming is Julian Borrow. Our head of production is Nick Johnson, and Spencer Howard is our post-production supervisor. I'm your host, Vanessa Richardson. A beloved 75-year-old man washing up getting ready for bed is brutally beaten and killed. Despite an exhaustive investigation, the killer avoids arrest and then strikes again. I'm Global News crime reporter Nancy Hicks. You might listen to a lot of True Crime Podcast this year, but they're not Crime Beat. Search for and follow the award-winning podcast Crime Beat on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music, and wherever you find your favorite

podcasts. Do you want to hear something spooky? Some monster, it reminded me of Bigfoot. Monsters Among Us is a weekly podcast featuring true stories of the paranormal. One of the boys started to exhibit demonic possession. Stories straight from the witnesses' mouths themselves. Something very snake-light lifted its head out of the water. Hosted by me, your guide. Derek Hayes. Somehow I lost eight whole hours. Listen now on Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts.