Killer Stories with Harvey Guillén - "The Lake Elsinore Killer" William Suff Pt. 1

Episode Date: January 23, 2023

It was the late 1960s when Bill Suff, the oldest of five children, was forced into a co-parenting role after his dad walked out on the family. His lack of control over the world around him made him angry. And one day, he would let out all that anger in a violent fashion. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Due to the graphic nature of this killer's crimes, listener discretion is advised. This episode includes discussions of infanticide, child abuse, murder, rape, mutilation, and animal abuse. We advise extreme caution for children under 13. On a late night in January 1989, William Suf cruised down Lake Elsinore's main street in his silver Mitsubishi minivan. When Bill did this route during the day, people would recognize this call. car and wave. But now, the 38-year-old drove under the cover of darkness. He'd been feeling restless, and this was his time to unleash. Bill noticed a woman waiting on a corner. He quickly recognized her as a sex worker. Her name was Rhonda Jetmore. Bill pulled the car over and Rhonda leaned

against the driver's door, negotiating through the window. They agreed on $20 for the night. But instead of a 20, Bill handed Rhonda a folded-up dollar. He delighted in fooling her, but the young woman cut his funds short when she pulled out a flashlight to examine the money. When she realized he'd tricked her, Ronda started yelling and cursing at Bill. It made him furious. He lunged at her, his thick fingers reaching for her neck. If Ronda wanted to backtalk, she could.

But he would get the final word. Hi, I'm Greg Poulson. This is Serial Killers, a Spotify original from Parcast. Every episode, we dive into the minds and madness of serial killers. Today, we're exploring the unsettling crimes of William Lester Suff, known as the Lake Elsinor Killer. I'm here with my co-host, Vanessa Richardson. Hi, everyone. You can find episodes of Serial Killers and all other Spotify originals from Parcast for free on Spotify.

In today's episode, we'll discuss Bill's childhood and how he used violence to control those around him. We'll dive into his two personas and the fury that led to his first murder. Finally, we'll talk about Bill's midnight habit of hunting his victims. Next time, we'll explore his disturbing rituals and examine the methods he used to taunt the police. We've got all that and more coming up. Stay with us. This episode is brought to you by ZipRecruiter. Whether you're hiring for a role or searching for a killer, the hunt can be exhausting. When detectives looked and searched to find any kind of evidence to find the person they were looking for,

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who post on ZipRecruiter, get a quality candidate within the first day. And now, you can try it for free at ZipRecruiter.com slash killers. That's ZipRecruiter.com slash killers. Meet your match on ZipRecruiter. This episode is brought to you by Shopify. Bonnie and Clyde, the Lonely Hearts Killers, Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid. These are infamous criminal duels.

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Don't miss Sol de Janeiro's limited edition perfume mist collection only at Sephora. Parenthood can be a privilege. You get to be a guide, a protector, and a provider. To some, these roles are the incredibly fulfilling result of having a child. But this can also be a precarious balance because there are those who rely on parenthood for the sense of importance it gives them, the purpose, power, and validation. For those parents, failing in this role can cause their entire identity to crumble. Some might abandon their families. Others grow silent and resentful. And a few, like Bill Suff, will do

anything to reclaim that lost power. William Lester Suf Jr. was born in the Los Angeles suburb of Torrance, California in the summer of 1950. Post-World War II, the town provided a wholesome community for the typical mid-century nuclear family, like the Sufts. From the outside perspective, William Sr. and Elizabeth Suf fit this mold well. William Sr. was a stoic, hard-working electrician, Elizabeth, a beautiful stay-at-home wife. But the truth wasn't so pleasant. William Sr. spent most of his time at work, away from his infant son, he was somewhat emotionally distant, too.

Elizabeth wasn't the warm, fuzzy type either. She was a no-nonsense person and could be a, quote, domineering force. It appeared she had no interest in coddling her son. This meant that Bill may have grown up without the reassure. of his mother's love. Even as an infant, this would have affected him. Vanessa is going to take over on the psychology here and throughout the episode. Please note, Vanessa is not a licensed psychologist or psychiatrist, but we have done a lot of research for this show. Thanks, Greg.

According to a 2010 study published in the Journal of Epidemiology and Community Health, a lack of maternal affection can impact a baby as young as eight months old. The study suggests that people who don't receive tangible expressions of love during infancy, experience higher rates of anxiety, hostility, and interpersonal sensitivity later in life. As Bill grew from a baby into a toddler, it's possible he desperately tried to win his mother's attention, but it doesn't seem like he got any. So he may have adopted the same emotional distance he felt from William Sr. and Elizabeth. However, this wouldn't have been the only lesson Bill learned from his parents. Elizabeth and William

Sr. fought constantly. The extent of their arguments is unclear, but their fighting was defined as abusive by the hosts of the television series World's Most Evil Killers. Despite the domestic chaos, Elizabeth and William Sr. had four more children over the late 1950s, forcing their eldest son into an unwanted position, older brother. Now there was even less attention for Bill and more responsibility. And as life moved forward for the soft family, things seemed to get worse for Bill. In the early 1960s, they relocated near Lake Elsinore in Riverside County, a desert climate suburb about an hour and a half southeast of Los Angeles. There, Elizabeth and William

Sr. bought a coffee shop, which kept them extremely busy. Bill's younger siblings, a gaggle of wiry, energetic kids, had space to run free while he tried in vain to corral them. It was a constant and thankless job, and one he didn't seem to get much help with. Elizabeth acted cold toward her children, while William Sr. spent his days at work and playing the drums with local bands in his free time. In a possible attempt to bond with his distant father, Bill joined the marching band in high school. Perhaps he thought music would give him and his dad a shared interest. All it seemed to do, however, was make it harder for Bill to connect with other kids his age. At home, he was an overworked co-parent. At school, he was seen as meek and awkward.

And now, to some, a band geek. Socially inept, he found it difficult to make friends, and nearly impossible to date girls. Around this time, a pit formed in Bill's stomach. Nobody was giving him the approval and affection he thought he deserved, and he had no idea why. But the worst blow was yet to come. One day in 1967, William Sr. dropped Elizabeth off at the coffee shop and said he needed to run to the store. But instead of driving down the street, he turned onto a highway and headed east. The father of five didn't stop until he reached Michigan. He never came back. This left Elizabeth in charge of the coffee shop and five children.

She put the family on welfare, but to help keep everyone afloat, 16-year-old Bill had to work a part-time job. In an instant, Bill went from older brother and babysitter to substitute father and provider. To make things more complicated, Bill's younger brothers started acting out. According to one source, they set fires and even killed small animals. We aren't sure how or if Elizabeth stepped into interfere, but it seemed like it was up to Bill to keep his siblings out of trouble, or at least out of jail. According to a study published in 2011 by the Journal of Clinical Psychology, parentification is an effect that occurs when a child takes on the role of a parent.

The data shows that kids who are given the responsibilities of an adult may be at an increased risk of developing characteristics like self-criticism, self-pity, and comparing oneself to others. As adults, sometimes these kids develop characteristics that could be categorized as narcissistic. These include an inflated sense of self-importance, a deep need for excessive attention and admiration, or a lack of empathy for others. We can't say for sure this was happening for Bill, but one thing was for sure. From a young age, he had already started gravitating towards one particular emotion. Anger.

Bill was furious about his father's departure. It's possible he'd grown to believe that the man of the house was supposed to be a stable, strong presence, their provider. When William Sr. took off, it may have altered how Bill thought about fatherhood and manhood. It was also a profoundly personal betrayal to Bill. It wasn't that William Sr. abandoned his family and dumped his responsibilities on his eldest son. Bill hated that his father left him behind. As this chip on Bill's shoulder grew larger, it seemed like the only outlet he had was music. On the weekends, he dressed in his marching band uniform, a stiff, double-breasted jacket with dozens of brass buttons, and performed for the school's sports teams.

One night in 1968, 17-year-old Bill donned his uniform and went to perform at a football game. He spotted 14-year-old Terrell Cardella in the stands, a sweet-looking girl with stylish hair and big, innocent eyes. After the game, a few mutual friends introduced Bill to Terrell. wasn't the most outgoing person, but she thought he was good looking and liked his smile, so she gave him her number. The two started a courtship just as Bill graduated high school. The couple quickly fell in love. But it was probably more than a budding romance to Bill.

With Terrell by his side, it seems that Bill finally had a validation he'd always wanted. Right out of school, Bill took a job as a state forester, but soon there was another career path that piqued his interest. In January 1969, Bill enlisted in the United States Air Force. He probably saw it as the perfect place to find the respect he'd never gotten from his family or peers. But instead of flying the skies above Vietnam, he was sent to Fort Worth, Texas. There, he served as an aide in the Pediatrics Ward of the Carswell Air Force Base Hospital.

At first, he didn't seem to mind. He and Terrell wrote letters back and forth. sheepishly discussing their future. It appeared as though nothing could prevent them from a happy life together. But a few months after he started his aid work, he received a call from Terrell. She told him that she could no longer be with him. Terrell explained that someone had raped her and she was now pregnant. She thought it meant their relationship was over.

It's impossible to know what went through Bill's mind at that moment, but one thing was for sure. Terrell was someone who provided Bill with love and adoration. He wasn't about to let that go. He wasn't about to let her go. So he told his young girlfriend not to worry. He would marry her and raise the child as his own. That December, 1969, the 16-year-old and the 19-year-old tied the knot while Bill was on leave in California. Dressed in his Air Force uniform, Bill held Terrell's hand.

On that day, he was a military man, a husband, and even a soon-to-be father. Seeing the couple full of optimistic youth and beaming on their wedding day, nobody could have predicted the nightmare, but was to come. Coming up, Bill takes his first life. Snoring, gasping during sleep, feeling fatigued, ask your doctor about Zepbound, terseptite, the first and only FDA-approved prescription medicine for moderate to severe obstructive sleep apnea, OSA, and adults with obesity. Zepbound is a prescription medicine used with a reduced calorie diet and increased physical activity

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And this summer, Prime Originals have everything you want. Steamy romances, irresistible love stories, and the book to screen favorites you've already read twice. Off campus, L, every year after, the love hypothesis, Sterling Point, and more. Slow burns, second chances, chemistry you can feel through the screen. Your next obsession is waiting. Watch only on Prime. Now back to the story. By early 1970, 19-year-old Bill Suv was in the Air Force, married and had a child on the way. Looking at him, handsome and confident in his uniform, anyone would have thought Bill was living the American dream.

Bill did appear happy at the time. He'd always believed strongly in gender roles, the honorable man earning a living, and the supportive wife running the house. That life was now within reach for Bill, until the baby came. While Bill was serving in Texas, Terrell gave birth to a daughter.

After the baby was born, Bill convinced Terrell to move to Fort Worth, Texas. The 16-year-old agreed and made all of the arrangements. Though she was young and leaving her family behind, Terrell may have been excited to start a life with her new family. But it's possible the baby reminded Bill that Terrell had been with another man, which could have made him feel emasculated. Because at the last minute, Bill called her with an upsetting request. He said that for some reason he told his superiors their daughter had died.

Now, so Bill wouldn't look like a liar, they had to leave the baby behind. This no doubt came as a shock to Terrell. She didn't want to abandon her daughter, but Bill had a way of making it all sound so reasonable. He suggested his mother and new stepfather taking the baby so they could still see her in California when they visited. Over the years, Bill had learned how to manipulate his wife. From guilt-tripping to comforting, he knew how to push Terrell's buttons to get his way. In addition to Bill's insistence, Terrell possibly felt pressured to support her husband. After all, he was older and he promised to take care of her.

Whatever her reasoning was, she ultimately decided to trust him. She left her baby girl with her in-laws and headed to Fort Worth. The first few weeks in Texas went well for the couple. They settled into their life together and even bought a kitten. Bill finally felt like Terriolmese. Carol was his again and his alone, and he seemed obsessed with keeping it that way. He wouldn't allow his wife to go anywhere without him, insisting on accompanying her to places like the laundromat.

This need for control might have been made worse by Bill's lackluster Air Force experience. Though we don't have a lot of details, it seems like his military life was unremarkable and dull. The uniform didn't come with the glory he had hoped for. But that wouldn't remain a problem for long. In December 1970, only a few weeks after Terrell's move, Bill came home and announced he was no longer in the armed forces. He told Terrell he'd been honorably discharged, but didn't say why. However, he'd only served a year and a half, just a portion of his service.

So it's possible he was lying and something went wrong. The records that contained the reason for Bill's release remain sealed, so we don't know what happened. Whatever the case, Bill didn't seem to make a big deal of the change, but it was likely a sore subject. He'd signed up for the Air Force to prove his importance. Now, along with the uniform, so went Bill's pride. Bill tried to find new employment, but keeping a job wasn't easy for him. He found work as a fry cook, then as a truck driver, and next as an ambulance aide. Nothing stuck.

Probably because Bill considered himself above these lines of work. After a childhood spent not feeling good enough, Bill had convinced himself he was superior to those around him. And now he refused to think otherwise. But rather than try harder to earn a job that he liked, he seethed with resentment and self-sabotage. And a new arrival made these feelings even more pronounced. In November 1971, Terrell gave birth to a baby boy who they named Billy Jr. It should have been a happy time for the growing family, but Bill once again didn't seem to like sharing Terrell with someone else.

In his eyes, Terrell spent all her time with a baby. Bill tried to guilt trip, charm, and woo his wife back to him, but it didn't work. It was just like when his mother had his siblings. Bill felt himself pushed to the side again. Bill also seemed to be frustrated and confused by fatherhood itself, though he practically raised his siblings, they'd been older. An infant was a new kind of stress that the 21-year-old couldn't get used to. When the baby cried, Bill got upset and angry. He wanted to make the whales stop, but didn't know how. It all boiled over when Bill began abusing his son. That just

made the child cry harder and scream louder. Crying is a normal behavior for an infant, but for some an infant's wails can lead to violent behavior. According to a study in child abuse and neglect, parents who are at high risk for child physical abuse, or CPA, are more likely to react angrily when their infant cries. But it's not the crying itself that's the problem. Another study in the medical journal The Lancet says, quote,

excessive crying seems to be less relevant than the parent's perception of the crying and their inability to handle it properly. so Bill's violence toward his son may have been triggered by crying, but it was likely caused by whatever dark, angry feelings Bill was already harboring. Around this time, Bill was working as a parking lot attendant. It seemed to be yet another job he didn't care for, because at one point, he stole a car. The move got him fired, but we don't know if there was any further punishment, since he seemed to get off without jail time.

If that's true, he didn't appear grim. grateful for his reprieve. He was more bitter than ever. After the dismissal, the couple desperately needed income. So while Bill looked for a new gig, Terrell got two jobs, one as a waitress and another as a telethon solicitor. Now she was the breadwinner. According to a 2015 survey and study published in the online peer-reviewed journal, Injury Prevention, men who feel like they aren't living up to traditional gender roles can experience stress. This can turn into overcompensation and aggression if such men believe really strongly in these kinds of roles, meaning Bill seemed to think that the man of the house should be the breadwinner

when exactly the opposite was happening. This could be why Bill grew more controlling. While watching his wife get ready for work, fixing her hair, and putting on makeup, he yelled at her to avoid wearing certain clothes or to style her hair differently. While Bill waited at home for her to return, his jealousy took hold. Perhaps he'd never gotten over Terrell's firstborn, and now his insecurities ran rampant. According to various accounts, he became extremely possessive

and accused her of cheating on him. During one argument, his wife threatened to leave. Terrell said she would rather work on the streets as a sex worker than stay there with him. At these words, Bill was infuriated. He became violent with Terrell, hitting her in the face. Terrified, Terrell didn't know what to do.

She'd left her family behind in California and had given up her daughter to be with Bill. But as scared as she might have been, she couldn't bring herself to leave. Bill's rage didn't just land on Terrell. One day the couple's cat wouldn't stop meowing. Bill grew increasingly upset trying to quiet the cat down by yelling.

Finally, according to Terrell, he got a BB gun. and shot the animal. Terrell was stunned. Killing their pets seemed so easy and logical to Bill. It scared her. She probably wondered what else her husband was capable of. The couple lived in this tense environment for years.

Unemployed and resentful, Bill physically abused Terrell on one other occasion, but they stayed together. And their family grew. In July 1973, the Suf's welcomed a new baby, a girl named Dijonay. When Billy Jr. was born, Bill was still working odd jobs, and so Terrell was likely the one who stayed home with him. But this time, she was at work all day, leaving Bill home alone with Dijonay. Almost immediately, the newborn aggravated the 23-year-old father by screaming and crying.

We aren't going to get into the details, but Bill once again responded to his child's whales with violence. This abuse went on for two months. In September 1973, Terrell got a call at work. Bill told her something was wrong with the baby, but he wouldn't tell her what. Terrell rushed home to find her two-month-old daughter unconscious on the bedroom floor. Bill had no explanation, claiming he had found her there in that state. The couple rushed Dijunay to the hospital, where she was pronounced dead. As doctors examined the child, the extremity of her injuries astounded them. She had multiple fractures and was covered in bruises. Police launched an investigation and brought evidence to trial. There was more than enough to blame

Bill and Terrell for the death. Terrell insisted she didn't know about the abuse, but Bill had a more unusual excuse. He told the court he never beat the child, but it was possible his toddler son, Billy Jr. had hugged and kissed her too aggressively. The unconvinced jury convicted the couple of murder after only 30 minutes. Billy Jr. was sent to foster care, while Terrell and Bill each received 10 years in prison. But after two years, Terrell's sentence was appealed. Once the authorities freed her, she immediately filed for divorce. Bill was devastated, except this time there was nothing he could do to stop her.

All he could do was seeds from behind bars. But he kept his rage hidden, because during his incarceration, Bill had perfected his manipulative skills. He figured out exactly what the prison officials wanted to see and hear from him. Then he gave it to them. So in the eyes of Bill's superiors at the prison, he was doing very well. Bill worked to earn two degrees, always volunteered to help, and was generally seen as very friendly. After 10 years, the authorities released Bill home to California in 1984, where he would serve parole by filling out annual reports. The now 34-year-old returned to where he'd spent his teenage years, Lake Elsinor.

It's not clear why Bill moved back to his hometown. He didn't have an enjoyable time growing up. He felt ignored and underappreciated there. But perhaps the familiarity was comforting. Or maybe Bill had some. something sinister to prove. Coming up, Bill takes us anchor to the streets of Lake Elsinore. Want to support your gut health?

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and no wire comfort that last all day. All over smooth, all-day comfort, vanity fair lingerie. Find yours at Target today. Now back to the story. After serving a decade in prison for the murder of his infant daughter, Bill Suf moved back to his hometown of Lake Elsinore in 1984. There, he created a new persona. The 34-year-old found jobs at a video shop and a general store,

then quickly became known as an exceptionally hard worker. His chronic bad employee streak had vanished. But it was more than that. Bill went out of his way to make people feel special. He gave out free sodas to local kids, offered rides to coworkers, and always volunteered to take on an extra task if it could make someone else's day easier. When the county released a carpool initiative to save energy, Bill was an enthusiastic participant.

He drove dozens of people around in a silver Mitsubishi minivan. The county even put Bill on the poster for the ride-sharing program. The image showed him leaning against his car. with a personalized license plate, Bill Suf won. As a literal poster boy, it was like Bill was too good to be true, and that's perhaps because he was. This friendly neighbor facade distracted the people of Lake Elsinore from the real bill, and the real bill was a contradiction.

For instance, by day, he was a vocal supporter of community efforts, such as cleaning up Lake Elsinore's Red Light District. However, late at night, Bill jumped in his silver van and rolled through this same red light district, calling the women over to pay for their services. The hypocrisy meant nothing to Bill. His whole life he felt betrayed by women. Perhaps in his eyes, he felt his mother didn't love him. And Terrell had another man's child, then divorced him.

So it's possible that Bill was now seeking out women that couldn't hurt him in the same way. women that he thought he could control. Bill lived this dual lifestyle for two years. Then in the fall of 1986, at 36, he got a new job as a stock clerk for Riverside County's purchasing department. He felt helpful and validated there like he was moving up in the world. He also started dating a local teacher named Bonnie. He briefly moved in with Bonnie to care for her elderly grandmother.

It seemed like a gesture of kindness. But that warmth came with some menace. While living there, Bill routinely stole from the older woman. It was a prime example of the two sides of Bill. Carpooling, winning chili contests, and volunteering made him feel love. And then, visiting sex workers and stealing from an older woman made him feel powerful. But at some point, he found himself thinking about his married days to the one that got away. In 1986, Bill tracked down his now ex-wife Terrell, who still lived in Texas, and made a call.

When her housemate picked up, he asked her to relay a message. It was something along the lines of, I know where you are, and I'm going to get you. Terrell had been trying to move on with her life, and her ex-husband's message sent her into a panic. But Bill's threat was empty. He wasn't going to Texas anytime soon. He likely just wanted to wanted to feel in charge again, and Terrell was a familiar favorite. But when she didn't call back, his hunger for domination seemed to grow. If he thought he could take that feeling out on Bonnie, he was mistaken. Bonnie discovered Bill's stealing habits and broke up with him.

It was likely another kick to Bill's pride. He was forced to move into an apartment alone. There, his anger toward the women in his life stued. This was also around the time that a series of murders occurred, in the same area that Bill called home. He wasn't charged or convicted in many of these crimes, but we're going to talk about the ones he likely committed. On October 29, 1986, someone killed 23-year-old Michelle Yvette Gutierrez.

Michelle was beaten and raped, her clothing torn to shreds. Her attacker even tore out fistfuls of her pubic hair. And finally, the assailant wrapped his hands around Michelle's neck and choked her to death. Whoever killed Michelle didn't seem to panic or abandon the body once she died. Instead, he took out a knife and pushed it into her chest several times.

Each stab was neat and slow. It was less like a crime of passion and more like a sadistic experiment. Once he finished, the killer dumped his victim's body in a drainage ditch, 30 minutes north of Lake Elsinore. The next day, a passerby found her. But when the police arrived to investigate, they didn't uncover any evidence.

Over the next two years, residents discovered three dead sex workers around Lake Elsinor. One of the bodies was too decomposed to determine the cause of death. Another was raped and stabbed, and the third was drugged and strangled. There didn't seem to be an obvious pattern, which means these women might have been murdered by three separate individuals. or maybe it was one perpetrator learning what they liked about killing. Sometime around mid-January, 1988, an unknown assailant drove through San Bernardino on the prowl for a sex worker. He picked up 21-year-old Lisa Lasek. After striking a deal, she jumped into his silver van.

Together, they headed somewhere more remote. While in the middle of nowhere, he attacked Lisa and strangled. her to death. Afterwards, the killer took out his knife and sliced off her right breast. Lisa's body was left near Highway 3.30 in the San Bernardino National Forest, about an hour east of Lake Alcinaw. Someone found her on January 18th. Just like with Michelle, there wasn't enough evidence for authorities to come up with a suspect. If Bill was responsible for these murders, he was probably encouraged when no one knocked on his door. He may have even thought it meant he was free to do as he pleased, because that's exactly what he did next. In January, 1989, a year after killing Lisa,

Bill spent the night prowling through Lake Elsinore. He drove down Main Street and pulled up next to a sex worker named Rhonda Jetmore. They agreed on $20 for the evening, and Bill handed her the rolled up money. Before getting into the car, Rhonda took out a flashlight and inspected the cash. It wasn't a 20. It was a single. Ronda, angry at the hustle, started yelling at Bill. He couldn't stand that. A woman was once again trying to take control away from him, and he wasn't going to let her. Bill launched himself out of the car window, reaching for Rhonda's neck. She sidestepped the attack and swung her flashlight at his head. Medellin's skull met with a crack. As Bill reeled back, Rhonda escaped. After the encounter, the 38-year-old seethed as he drove to his apartment. He was likely worried

about Rhonda. After all, she had seen his car and his face. However, it doesn't seem like Rhonda ever talked with the police. And as days turned into weeks, Bill likely started feeling safe again. It's theorized that this might have been when he realized something important about his treacherous midnight hobby. The only way to maintain control was to never let his victims live. Thanks again for tuning in to serial killers. We'll be back soon with part two of the Lake Elsinore Killer, where Bill meets his second

wife and his victim counts skyrockets into double digits. For more information on William Suf, we found 2-4 Productions Television Series, Born to Kill, and Mind Games with a serial killer by Brian Allen Lane, extremely helpful to our research. You can find all episodes of serial killers and all other Spotify originals from Parcast for free on Spotify. We'll see you next time. Stay safe out there.

Cereal Killers is a Spotify original from Parcast. Executive produced by Max Cutler, our head of programming is Julian Brow, our supervising designer is Russell Nash, with Nick Johnson as our head of production and quality control by Spencer Howard. Stacey Nemek is our supervising editor, and Derek Jennings is our writing lead. This episode of serial killers was written by Kit Fitzgerald, edited by Amber von Schassen, Robert Tyler Walker and Kate Murdoch, fact-checked by Cheyenne Lopez, researched by Sapphire Williams and Chelsea Wood, produced by Bruce Kitovich and sound design by Michael Motion. Our hosts are Greg Poulson and me, Vanessa Richardson.

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