Killer Stories with Harvey Guillén - “The Lethal Lovers” Pt. 2 - Gwen Graham & Cathy Wood

Episode Date: November 6, 2017

In the case of the Lethal Lovers, Gwen Graham was charged with five murders, and Cathy Wood charged as her accomplice. But was that truly their relationship, or was Cathy blackmailing Gwen to use her as a scapegoat? Greg and Vanessa piece through the lies to discover who was really culpable in the Alpine Manor killings- Gwen Graham, Cathy Wood, or both women?  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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includes dramatizations and discussions of murder and assault that some people may find offensive. We advise extreme caution for children under 13. In 1987, Kathy Wood and Gwen Graham embarked on a killing spree that claimed the lives of five elderly patients at the Alpine Manor Nursing Home in Grand Rapids, Michigan. Their first victim was an elderly Alzheimer's patient, Marguerite Chambers. Marguerite? On a snowy winter evening in 1986, Ed Chambers entered room 614-1 at Alpine Manor,

where his wife Marguerite had been institutionalized. Ed pulled up a chair beside his wife's bed, held her shaking hand, and spoke to her about things of little consequence for about an hour, as though everything was normal. But their conversation was far from normal. It had been 12 years since Marguerite was diagnosed with Alzheimer's disease. She had since lost her ability to communicate,

and Ed couldn't be sure if she understood, what he was telling her during his visits in the five years Marguerite had been a patient at Alpine Manor. While her husband's visits may have been routine for Marguerite, two things had changed for her in the days leading up to Christmas that year. The first was the music playing in her room. As part of a new in-room program, a staffer came in once a week to play the waltz music that Marguerite so enjoyed in her youth. Waltzing was one of her favorite activities, and while she might not have been as agile at whisking across the floor as she once was, Marguerite's old age and fragility certainly didn't stop her from trying.

But the second change was quite a bit less welcoming to Marguerite Chambers. It was an intrusion. A sense that someone was trying to get her. After Ed left, Marguerite felt an unrelenting pressure over her nostrils and jaw, cutting off her air supply and causing her to lose consciousness. But she regained her consciousness the next day,

having survived the assault. However, she was unable to communicate what had occurred in her current state of dementia. On January 18, 1987, Marguerite's 1,293rd day as a patient at Alpine, another assault occurred. Marguerite was jolted from her sleep as an intruder pulled back the divider curtain around her bed. A pair of hands forcefully applied a rolled terry cloth over her face, smothering the dementia patient. Marguerite thrashed in her bed as she struggled to breathe in any slight bit of air. In her final moments of consciousness, her eyes couldn't help it look up at the face above her.

But whose face was she looking at? According to court records, based on Nurse Kathy Wood's testimony, the hands that suffocated Marguerite Chambers to death belonged to nurse Gwen Graham, while Kathy played lookout by the door of room 614-1. However, journalist and true crime author Lowell Cawfield has another theory, which he laid out in his 1992 book, Forever and Five Days. Which was also the source of the account of Marguerite Chambers' murder that you just heard. Following the murderous duo's convictions in 1989,

Caulfield's investigation into the case for Forever and Five Days brought new details to light, presenting a very different Kathy Wood than the one presented at Gwen's trial, and putting into question everything the court had determined to be true in the case of the Alpine Manor murders. As far as Caulfield was concerned, those hands that suffocated Marguerite Chambers and that face she looked up at in her final moments of life might as well have belonged to Kathy Wood. So who was the more culpable party in the Alpine Manor murders? Was it Gwen Graham as the court determined? Or Kathy Wood, as Lowell Cawfield suspects? On this episode of serial killers, we'll present evidence for both accounts and allow you, the listener, to decide what is the true story and what is simply a love?

Hi, I'm Greg Poulson. This is serial killers, a podcast original. Every Monday, we dive into the minds of madness of serial killers. Today we're going to take a deep dive into the lives of Gwendolyn Graham and Kathy Wood, a pair of nurses who melded murder with their sexual relationship, leading the papers to label them the lethal lovers. I'm here with my co-host, Vanessa Richardson. Hi, everyone.

You can find episodes of serial killers and all other Parcast Originals for free on Spotify or wherever you listen to podcasts. To stream serial killers for free on Spotify, just open the app and type serial killers in the search bar. At PARCAST, we're grateful for you, our listeners. You allow us to do what we love. Let us know how we're doing. Reach out on Facebook and Instagram at PARCAST and Twitter at PARCAST Network. And if you enjoyed today's episode, the best way to help us is to leave a five-star review wherever you're listening. It really does help. And now, Back to the case of Gwen Graham and Kathy Wood. In November 1989, Gwen Graham was found guilty of five counts of first-degree murder

and one count of conspiracy to murder. She was given five life sentences, which she is currently serving out in the Women's Huron Valley Correctional Facility in Pittsfield Charter Township, Michigan. As part of her plea bargain to testify against Gwen at her trial, Kathy Wood was given a reduced sentence of 20 years and charged with one count of second-degree murder and one count of conspiracy to commit second-degree murder. Vanessa, can you break down for our audience what the distinction is between first and second-degree murder? Of course. When one person's actions lead to another person's death, we often think of

such a case as murder. But due to the complexities of situations that could lead to one person taking another's life, our judicial system set up a hierarchy of acts that are collectively referred to as homicide. At the top, we have the most serious form of homicide, first-degree murder or felony murder. This is when one intentionally kills another person willfully and premeditated with malice aforethought. And second-degree? Second-degree murder would be a case where someone intentionally kills with malice a forethought, but it's a spontaneous murder that isn't planned or premeditated. For example, if two people get into a bar fight and one of them kills the other, that would be second-degree murder. But if you take that same situation, except in this

case, the person who kills the guy in the fight, had just found out that this individual had been having a long-term affair with his spouse. That would then be considered voluntary manslaughter, or third-degree murder. Why would the revelation of infidelity be a determining factor? Well, while both second-degree murder and voluntary manslaughter are both spur-of-the-moment murders, in the latter case, there's a circumstance that would cause a reasonable person to become emotionally or mentally disturbed. The fourth degree, involuntary manslaughter, is when someone has no intention to kill, but their intentional actions or negligence leads to another person's death. A classic example of this is a drunk driver who gets into an accident and kills someone.

Okay, I get it. But at the end of the day, someone is dead. And despite how you may classify the homicide, they're not coming back. So what's the point? Well, it's all about sentencing. Our judicial system considers intentions and culpability as very relevant factors when determining sentences for convicted criminals. And having the ability to reduce a sentence from, say, first-degree murder down to second-degree murder is a prosecutor's best bet for getting cooperation from a criminal awaiting trial. What are the differences in sentencing for first-degree murder and second-degree murder, generally speaking? Well, for second-degree murder, the sentence can be anywhere from approximately 20 years to life in prison. For a first-degree murder conviction, you're looking at life in prison,

typically with no possibility of parole, and in some cases in states, the death penalty. So while Gwen Graham will likely never see the light of day, Kathy Wood has been eligible for parole since 2005, and is set to be released in 2021, which seems to make sense if you're going off Kathy's testimony, in which she claimed that Gwen was the one who planned and carried out the murders. Kathy claimed she was manipulated by Gwen,

into getting involved as the lookout, and would occasionally have to distract their supervisors at Alpine Manor, while Gwen smothered the elderly patients to death. Or at least that was the story that was widely accepted by the court and the public. That is, until true crime author Lowell Caulfield painted a very different narrative about the Alpine Manor murders in 1992. Vanessa, why don't you tell our audience in a nutshell what Caulfield uncovered about this case in his book, Forever in Five Days?

Well, Greg, essentially, Caulfield doesn't buy the... version of Kathy Wood that was presented at Gwen's trial, the victim of a pathologically manipulative lover. Through digging deep into court documents and interviewing close friends, co-workers and family members of Kathy Wood, Cawfield comes to the conclusion that it was Kathy who was the true criminal mastermind behind the murders. He believes it was Gwen who was the one manipulated into becoming involved in the murders as part of Kathy's insurance policy to prevent Gwen from ever leaving her. In other words, Cofield's things The theory is that, in reality, the roles Kathy and Gwen played in the murders were reverse

of how Kathy claimed it to be. Exactly. He sees Gwen as more of a tragic character who fell victim to Kathy, who Caulfield considered to be a manipulative psychopath. Well, Kathy was diagnosed as a pathological narcissist. Yes, and a quick look at Kathy's marriage and home life reveals the symptoms of a true psychopath manifested. Kathy herself stated that she felt she was not a good wife and was unable to be able to to provide the kind of emotional support and care that Ken's own mother brought to the home

when he was growing up. Ken also said that after their daughter Jackie was born, Kathy resented her daughter for preoccupying his attention. Wow. Well, that certainly sounds like pathological narcissism to me. And you wouldn't be wrong. Those that knew Kathy said she would delight in wreaking havoc in other people's lives. Last week, we talked about how Kathy and Gwen would play pranks on some of the patients and other nurses at Alpine. Well, Kathy would torment Ken by convincing her friends to call up the house, pretending to be an old girlfriend of Ken's, and she would listen to the conversation on the other line only so she could rail against him afterwards. Sounds like a tough home to live in, but Ken was willing to stick it out. It was Kathy who, in August of 1986,

after seven years of marriage, demanded a divorce, and Ken left with their daughter uncontested by Kathy. Shortly thereafter, Kathy moved into a home close to Alpine Manor with Gwen Graham. Pretty soon, the two nurses began a romantic relationship with one another. Vanessa, we've talked about how Kathy was a pathological narcissist. And last week, we discussed how Gwen was diagnosed with borderline personality disorder. But how do these two personality disorders play off each other in a relationship? Great question, Greg. That also plays into Caulfield's theory about Kathy Wood. According to Dr. Mark Goulston of psychology today, when a narcissistic and a borderline get together, the excitement, ecstasy, and passion at the beginning of a relationship are only exceeded by the

vitriolic, venomous repulsion at the end. He's referring to the 1989 movie War of the Roses, but it could also easily apply to our lethal lovers, don't you think? Well, yeah, but what specifically about these two personalities can make the relationship so toxic? Well, essentially, it boils down to the fact that people with borderline personality disorder tend to possess strong feelings of emptiness and penetrating fears of being alone, which is why they're so wary of trusting others. So they may seek out someone who can fill their emptiness and relieve their loneliness. They're attracted to the narcissist because initially he or she comes off as strong and

confident in their objectives. But what seems to be passion and generosity for their partner is really about how the partner makes the narcissist feel about themselves. The narcissist sees their partner as an ally in getting whatever it is he or she may be in pursuit of. And in the case of Gwen and Kathy? Well, psychological testing revealed that Gwen could easily be manipulated because of her borderline personality disorder,

especially by a pathological narcissist like Kathy, who knew exactly what to say to make someone hers. You'll recall from last week's episode that Kathy wasn't even attracted to Gwen, until she noticed the scars on her arm from her self-mutilation. Anne saw signs of someone with low self-esteem, who she could easily manipulate into doing her bidding. Exactly.

As Caulfield said, one of the hallmarks of the psychopath is the ability to manipulate people. And typically the way that's done is they find people who are damaged in some kind of way. They have some kind of opening that they work with to meet their needs, and through meeting their needs, that's how they're able to manipulate them. And that's certainly the case with Kathy Wood. Gwen described their relationship as psychologically abusive. But Kathy was able to keep Gwen around by making her feel special. In the words of Dr. Michael Abramsky, the forensic psychologist who performed psychological evaluations on Gwen and Kathy for this case,

quote, Gwen's tendency to seek out other abnormal characters certainly existed for several reasons. First, that's the only kind of person that would be involved with her. Nobody who's healthy would take someone being angry with you one minute, loving you the next minute, being inconsistent, stealing from you, and then expecting love from you. There are many unconscious elements that go into this, and people who are like Gwen will often seek out other psychopathic individuals and compliment them.

But of course, perhaps the most toxic aspect of the relationship between a person with narcissism and someone with BPD is the chilling level of rage they're capable of when one of them is disappointed, let down, or criticized. To quote Dr. John Palmetier, in the world that Kathy and Gwen existed, they were perfectly matched, because what the other one lacked, her partner fulfilled.

So when you put these two chemicals, these two things together, it created an explosion, and in any explosion, people die. Court documents reveal the many discrepancies in Gwen and Kathy's testimonies, describing the dynamic of their relationship. While many of the events that occurred are the same in both women's testimonies, the discrepancies lie in who played which role. For example, in last week's episode, we discussed a sexual encounter between Gwen and Kathy

after attending a Halloween party just three months prior to their first murder. Kathy said, quote, Gwen bound me to the bed with her restraints. Then she smothered me with a cloth over my mouth and nose so I couldn't breathe while she had sex with me. While Gwen said, quote, Kathy bound me to the bed with my restraints.

Then she smothered me with a cloth over my mouth and nose so I couldn't breathe while she had sex with me. Gwen has described her relationship with Kathy as physically and psychologically abusive. It wasn't long after the first murderer, about six months into their relationship. When Gwen decided she was no longer willing to be subjected to the abuse of her pathologically domineering lover,

Gwen moved out of her place with Kathy and began seeing another nurse from Alpine. According to Gwen, when Kathy found out about her new romance, she threatened Gwen's lover with a pistol and revealed that she had the ability to send Gwen to prison if they kept seeing each other. That gave Gwen a pretty good scare. Which is exactly what Caulfield believes these murders were all about for the narcissist Kathy would. Leverage By involving Gwen in the murders,

Kathy now had the ultimate blackmail on her lover, to keep her from ever leaving her. That was what made it a murder packed. As Kathy wrote in her infamous love poem to Gwen, You'll be mine forever and five days. That certainly is some very controlling language she used. Yes, and that was the name of Kathy's game, Control. Well, Kathy's game certainly worked for a little while.

Gwen was so spooked by Kathy's threats that she decided to move back in with Kathy. But the abuse continued. Gwen recalls one incident during that period. where Kathy bound Gwen to their bed, but not for sex. Kathy took Gwen's gun, threatened to kill her, then used the pistol on Gwen sexually, before leaving her tied up in the house all alone for several hours.

Like the incident on Halloween, Kathy recalls this episode taking place, but in her version, it's Gwen who is making the threats in doing the dominating. The killings, which began in January, 1987, with the murder of Marguerite Chambers, had taken their toll on the couple. Overwhelmed by the toxicity of their relationship

and fed up with being terrified of Kathy, Gwen finally found the courage to end her nine-month relationship with Kathy once and for all, and get as far away from her as possible. Gwen and her new lover, Heather, another nurse from Alpine, moved back to Gwen's hometown of Tyler, Texas together, in May of 1987. And that was the end of their romance, and their killing spree.

Yikes. I can only imagine how that made a narcissist like Kathy would feel. She must have really wanted Gwen back. Well, according to Caulfield's theory, what Kathy really wanted was revenge. We'll return to our story in just a moment. Yamava Resort and Casino at San Manuel is California's number one entertainment destination for today's superstars. Catch the Jonas Brothers return to the Yamava Theater stage on April 30th. the powerful vocals of Demi Lovato on May 17th, and the signature Southern Country Rock of Eric Church on July 19th.

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Kathy Wood was a pathological liar. As Ken Wood once said of his ex-wife, 80% of what comes out of her mouth is a lie. Take, for example, the story we discussed last week that Kathy tells about her first romantic partner, David, who Kathy says deceived her into believing that she was a man. We discussed some ways that it might have been possible that Kathy was actually fooled into thinking that a woman could have been a man in a romantic relationship. But crime author Caulfield believes that the far more probable explanation is that Kathy just made the whole thing up. But why would she do that? Well, the idea is that Kathy knew the whole time that David was a woman, but fabricated a story

that would buy her sympathy and portray her as a victim. And Kathy's proclivity for stretching the truth opens up even more questions about the next part of the story. After Gwen Graham left Kathy Wood and moved back to Texas with her new lover, Heather, Kathy was devastated. She met with her ex-husband Ken in 1988, following Gwen's departure.

At some point during this meeting, Kathy confessed to Ken that she had done some horrible things. Perplexed by her ambiguity, Ken prodded Cassie. for details about what it was she was referring to. Kathy posed a question for Ken. What do you think is the worst thing that a person could do? Ken thought for a moment and answered murder, I guess.

Kathy fixed him with a cold stare and replied, Try six times that. Ken sat with Kathy's confession for 14 months before reporting it to the police. When asked why he took so long to say anything, Ken said that he believed Kathy was lying or pulling a prank on him. This seems consistent with the testimonies from those who knew Kathy. Ken wasn't the only person Kathy told. She talked about murdering her patients with several of her coworkers at Alpine,

who disregarded it as just another one of Kathy's sick jokes. Dawn Mail, another former Alpine employee who heard Kathy and Gwen discussing the murders, said, I didn't believe them. I thought it was a joke, a sick joke, but a joke. Head games. Even the police didn't know what to tell. to make of this confession after Ken came forward. On October 6, 1988,

Ken Wood spoke with Walker, Michigan police detective Tom Freeman, whom he told of the murders Kathy had described to him. Ken included two or three of the victim's names, including their first victim, Marguerite Chambers. But police had no physical evidence to back up his claim, and several members of the department suspected that Ken may have been trying to vindictively frame Kathy, as revenge for leaving him to raise their daughter Jackie

all on his own eight years prior. After all, two nurses killing their elderly patients in a nursing home as part of a love pack seemed like a bit of a stretch at this time. Nevertheless, Ken's story seemed credible enough to raise some eyebrows, and the Walker, Michigan Police Department decided to open up an investigation. Police began by running background checks on Ken and Kathy, who had no criminal record. They then contacted the police department in Tyler, Texas, and discovered that Gwen had an outstanding warrant for bouncing a couple of bad checks, but no record of any criminal violence. But the police wanted to take the time to gather some physical evidence

before they confronted Kathy or Gwen about any allegations of murder. Detectives Roger Colliniac and Tom Friedman went to Alpine Manor to pull some files, employee and patient records. They were looking for anything suspicious, related to the deaths of eight women they'd come to recognize as potential homicides. Though we now know that only five of these women were even possibly murder victims. In the deluge of records,

police found that Kathy Wood and Gwen Graham had in fact been on shift when each of their potential victims had died. The only problem, of course, is that most patients who enter a nursing home don't tend to leave the place alive, and police found no increase in the amount of deaths during the time

that Kathy and Gwen worked at Alpine. Police decided to bring in Kathy Wood for questioning. At first, Kathy flat out denied any murders had occurred, claiming that she had only, told that to her ex-husband as a joke. But Detective Tom Freeman wasn't buying it. And after 40 minutes of interrogation, Kathy broke down and confessed to the murders, but claimed that she wasn't involved in the actual killings themselves. That, she claimed, was all Gwen. When detectives expressed their doubts that Kathy played such a minor role in the murders,

Kathy insisted that she could prove it with the letters between her and Gwen and the trophies that they had taken from the patients they killed. But when police searched her house, they uncovered the love letters between Kathy and Gwen. However, none of the trophies, which Kathy claimed to have, were found. There was also nothing incriminating within the content of the letters.

With absolutely no evidence to verify her claims, police convinced Kathy to take a polygraph test. She failed the test, and the polygraph operator strongly believed that Kathy was making the whole thing up. At this point, police were ready to just drop the entire case in investigation due to a serious lack of evidence. But Tom Freeman felt a guttural certainty that Kathy Wood was telling the truth. So detectives flew out to Tyler, Texas, to talk

to Gwen Graham. Off of her charge for bouncing bad checks, police obtained a search warrant for her home. They were met with surprise by Gwen and her live-in girlfriend, Heather. Gwen was questioned by detectives while police searched her home. Once again, they came up empty-handed with not to connect Gwen with the deaths at Alpine. But Detective Freeman was determined to get down to the truth of what really happened. On October 17, 1988, he confronted Kathy about her failed polygraph test. He suggested that he believed she failed the test because she was not admitting her full role in the murders. Kathy's response?

She got up and walked out of the room without saying a word. But three days later, Detective Freeman received a call from Kathy Wood, who admitted to him that she and Gwen had planned the killings together. She told him about the game they had invented, the murder game. While Kathy claimed they came up with it together, the question of who really came up with the game is still unclear. It should be noted that based on his psych evaluations of Gwen and Kathy, Dr. Michael Abramski believed, quote, Kathy was much more of a sophisticated, manipulative person, where Gwen was much more of an aggressive, acting out kind of person. So what you found is similar personality vibes, but one more sophisticated than the other, end quote.

He points out that because of Gwen's BPD, she lacked the inhibitory part of her brain, which made her far more subject to impulsive behavior. He thought that it was unlikely that Gwen would come up with any kind of sophisticated plot, like spelling the word murder by the victim's initials. But there was one image from the Rorschach test Abramsky performed on Gwen Graham that he found rather telling. When shown a big, color, inkblot, Gwen's unconscious identified the image as a pregnant monster. A pregnant monster? What's that supposed to mean? Abramsky believes that the pregnant monster symbolized the mother for whom Gwen yearned

and the evil produced by their failure to bond. But what does that have to do with the murders exactly? In Abramsky's words, quote, the murders were a bonding behavior, a symbolic bonding. The two of them created their own little world, Gwen and her surrogate mother. She was the good little girl who did what mom wanted to earn mom's favor. And to Gwen, the whole thing was simply play. Yes, the pregnant monster is Gwen's mother, but I also believe that the pregnant monster is Kathy Wood, end quote.

But in her conversation with Detective Freeman, Kathy claimed that Gwen was the one who roped her into participating in the murders as a lookout, which she says she agreed to because she was so in love with Gwen and didn't want to lose her. She said she got out of her relationship with Gwen when it was her turn to actually kill one of the patients. Kathy claimed she couldn't do it.

And shortly after, Gwen left her for another woman. On November 23rd, 1988, Kathy took a second polygraph exam with the Michigan State Police. This time, she admitted to her participation in the murders, as opposed to her first polygraph, where she put the brunt of the blame onto Gwen. And this time, her polygraph came back positive. Police now at least had some evidence

that the murders actually took place. But testimony from a polygraph exam doesn't mean much to a jury without some hard physical evidence. So, based on the results of Kathy's second polygraph exam, police obtain disinterment search warrants to exhume the bodies of the alleged murder victims. The only problem was that most of the victim's bodies had already been cremated. Nevertheless, they were able to perform autopsies on at least two cadavers that were still whole. The first victim, Marguerite Chambers, was exhumed on no. November 30th, 1988 for examination at the Kent County morgue. Now, this part of our story is about to take an interesting turn.

You got that right, especially as far as Caulfield's theory is concerned. Stay tuned. We'll return to our story in just a moment. You tell yourself, no one wants your college-era band teas, but on Deep Hop, people are searching for exactly what you've got. You once paid a small fortune for them at merch stands. Now, a teenager who calls them vintage, will offer them. for that same small fortune back.

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of Kathy Wood and Gwen Graham, and in an effort to get down to the truth about what really happened in this case. We reached out to someone who has personally very close to Kathy Wood in an attempt to gain some firsthand insight into her psyche, Kathy's daughter, Jackie Wood, now 37 and working as a social worker in Grand Rapids, Michigan. When asked about her experience growing up as the child of a serial killer, Jackie told us that, quote,

people have been disrespectful by only thinking, it's cool that my mom is a serial killer. As a kid, while the trial was happening, one or two friends at school told me their parents said they could no longer hang out with me, but didn't know why. I knew why. I'm usually eager to tell people about my mom because I figure everyone must see there's something strange or off about me when they meet me. I feel once they know it will explain all of my awkwardness. This may or may not be true. I don't think people are completely honest about their reactions to my face, which is understandable.

Oh boy, I can only imagine how difficult that must be for a child in that circumstance. But let's hear what Jackie had to say about her experiences with her mother. She said, quote, My mother was hot and cold. She was definitely depressed and hated being in public. She slept often and was even zombie-like at times. Sometimes she was very affectionate with me. I had even woken up and caught her watching me sleep with a smile on her face.

We did not have a strong bond, however. Sometimes she teased me. Other times, it felt like I was her favorite thing in the world. I'm speaking of when my parents were still together. Once they separated, I almost never saw my mom. When I did, she appeared a lot happier. According to Jackie, however, she and Kathy mended their relationship as she got older. Jackie stated, quote, our relationship improved after her incarceration.

She was more consistent, loving, and supportive. However, our relationship was very superficial because I was too young to have in-depth conversations. Also building a relationship through the fifth. 15-minute phone calls prison allows doesn't encourage growth in a relationship. After she was sentenced, she served outside of Michigan, and there wasn't enough time or money for me to visit. Jackie went on to describe what happened between her and her mother Kathy as the years progressed. Quote, in my 20s, mom asked me to help her with pearl hearings.

I was advised by a judge not to do this and was also not sure where to start. I was in college and working. The last thing I wanted to do was more research. but this upset her and we had an argument. But things went back to normal pretty quickly. But when Jackie was 36, she saw a documentary about her mother's case. The documentary focused on Caulfield's version of the Alpine murders, portraying Kathy as the manipulative psychopathic criminal mastermind behind the killings,

and Gwen as a tragic victim of Kathy's cruel manipulation. So Jackie decided to reach out to her mother once again. Quote, I felt she needed someone in her corner, and I told her this. I also told her I was still thinking about writing. She knew I thought about writing a memoir since I was around 20 years old. She said she was supportive. This time she told my aunt, her sister, that I had only contacted her for help with writing this book. At least I think that's what she said based on my aunt's reaction. Mom has not contacted me since. So does Kathy's daughter Jackie have any desire to have a relationship with her?

Well, according to Jackie, it's complicated. She said, quote, I want a relationship with her, but I don't want to be hurt anymore. I don't want to be misunderstood by her. I can't have both, so I'll have to choose. She may have chosen for me if she decides she no longer wants contact with me. It definitely hasn't been easy for Jackie, and I have nothing but sympathy for someone in her position. She's torn.

It's natural for a child to want a healthy, loving relationship with their parents, but she also knows what her mother did was evil. She wants to be close to someone who she doesn't deny as a murderer. Jackie doesn't deny she's a murderer, but some people do. If you recall, before the break, we were discussing how Kathy's second polygraph exam, which came back positive, gave law enforcement enough to go on in order to acquire disinterment search warrants to have autopsies performed on the bodies of two of the victims. Well, the forensic pathologist who performed the autopsies on Marguerite Chambers and Edith Cook

found absolutely no physical evidence of murder on the two bodies. He looked for bruising, lesions, self-inflicted cuts in the mouth from a struggle, and found nothing. Despite this, he changed the cause of death on the death certificates from natural causes to homicide without any objective evidence to justify this change. I see what you're getting at. But to be fair, in cases of suffocation, it's quite difficult to find hard evidence on the body. And like the forensic pathologist said, quote, police aren't out there looking for murders that never took place. I'll grant you that first point, Greg, but I have to take issue with that last comment. It's not the job of a forensic pathologist to arbitrarily change the cause of death on a death certificate solely based on the experience and confidence of the detectives working the case.

It's his job to perform the autopsy, report his findings, and potentially make a change based on objective evidence. And as far as hard evidence is concerned, we really have no reason to believe that these murders ever even took place. Well, it's certainly sloppy detective work. But do you really think the police would have made this whole thing up? Not in this case, no. But the police were only going off of Kathy Wood's testimony. And as a vindictive, psychopathic criminal mastermind and pathological liar, it's quite possible that Kathy's the one who made the whole thing up just to get back at Gwen for leaving her.

Well, that's certainly not how the jury. eventually saw it. But let's come back to this point in a bit. After police got the death certificates changed, Freeman was able to take this case to the prosecutor's office and obtain warrants for Kathy and Gwen's arrests. On December 4, 1988, Gwen Graham was arrested in Tyler, Texas for the murder of Edith Cook. Kathy Wood is charged with one count of conspiracy to commit murder for Marguerite Chambers and one count of murder for Edith Cook. In April of 1988, Kathy signed a plea agreement. as part of her cooperation with the authorities in the investigation.

In exchange for her testimony against Gwen, Kathy was charged with just one count of conspiracy to commit murder and one count of second degree murder. Gwen was subsequently charged with one count of conspiracy to commit murder and five counts of first-degree murder. Gwen continued to maintain her innocence, denying that the murders ever took place,

or at least not to her knowledge. And so on September 11th, 1989, Gwen Graham's murder trial began. In Freeman's words, quote, it was probably one of the weakest cases I ever had. With essentially no physical evidence to back them, prosecutors built nearly their entire case around Kathy's testimony from her second polygraph exam, putting a focus on Gwen's history of low-functioning borderline personality disorder. When James Piazza, Gwen's defense attorney, attempted to call Kathy's mental health into question, he was blocked by the court from doing so. Nevertheless, the jury fully bought into Kathy's version of...

Wait, hold on, Vanessa. Aren't you forgetting about one crucial piece of evidence? Oh, you mean that surprise witness whose testimony really gave the prosecution's story its credibility? Exactly. It was Gwen's girlfriend, Heather, who came forward to testify. She corroborated Kathy's story, telling the court that Gwen had confessed the murders to her, apparently giving the exact same account as Kathy. And since Heather lived a thousand miles away from Kathy and had no contact with her. That level of corroboration was sufficient for the jury to find Gwen Graham guilty on all charges, despite the lack of physical evidence in the case. So just to be clear, Gwen's girlfriend Heather provided an almost identical account to that of Kathy. Right. And because of

this, following the verdict, Gwen received six life sentences, while Kathy was given 20 to 40 years for her participation in the murders. She is set to be released in 2021. The first of the first of her, The families of the victims sued Alpine Manor for their negligence and employing Kathy and Gwen, and then ignoring complaints filed against them by both patients and employees. Alpine Manor subsequently went out of business, but the building now houses a nursing home called Sanctuary at St. Mary's. This case continues to be shrouded with ambiguity and mystery. To this day, Gwen Graham maintains her innocence and continues to deny any knowledge of the murders at Alpine Manor. In her words, quote, I can no more prove that I was innocent than they ever proved that I was guilty, end quote.

And while Kathy has expressed her remorse for her participation in the killings, Dr. John Palmoteer has said that, I would doubt that to this day she feels any genuine remorse for the fact that those human beings died. That's not a part of her psyche. Those people dying was just a byproduct of the interaction between her and her girlfriend. So Vanessa, I've gathered you don't think the court came to the correct conclusion regarding what truly happened in the Alpine Manor murders. Well, I'm skeptical, to say the least. I just don't think Gwen was capable of carrying out such an elaborate plan. That seems to be something far more likely of Kathy to do, given the nature of her pathology.

There just isn't enough evidence in this case to indicate that it went down the way Kathy said it did. When Caulfield interviewed several inmates that knew Kathy in prison, he got to... two different versions of what they say Kathy told them really happened. The first, that Kathy made up the entire story to put Gwen away for life as revenge for leaving her for another woman. The second, that she had done all the killings, but framed Gwen also for revenge. See, I think that's a bit of a stretch. Kathy was a pathological liar, but I highly doubt she would send herself to prison for 40 years based on a story that she completely fabricated, just to get revenge on Gwen for leaving her? Sure, but do you really think that it all happened the way Kathy claimed?

Between her second polygraph coming back positive and Heather's testimony at Gwen's trial, I'm inclined to believe that the court made the correct decision. I'm not saying that Gwen's telling the truth when she says she didn't even know about the murders, or that she wasn't even the active participant. Kathy's version could be true in the sense that she was the lookout while Gwen committed the murders, but based on our research and Caulfields, I just have to believe that Kathy was the ringleader of the murder game. But the reality is no one can ever know for sure what really happened.

When we asked Kathy's daughter, Jackie, about what she thought really happened and what she makes of Caulfield's theory, she had this to say. Quote, No one except my mom and Gwen, know the facts surrounding this case. My mom didn't talk to Mr. Caulfield. I believe the media values the role of villains to sensationalize stories. However, does it matter if there was a mastermind? What does that mean? They were both convicted of murdering innocent people. I've observed Mr. Calfield and Gwen's attorney say things in a documentary

about Gwen that made her appear more victimized. These same descriptions, being shy, being abused, etc., could have been said about my mom, but they were left out. I believe they were left out for obvious reasons regarding Gwen's attorney's statements, but left out also by the Mr. Caulfield to ensure his hypothesis on my mom's role in the murder is preserved. Fair enough. So what do you think really happened in the case of the lethal

lovers? Let us know your take in the comment section on our social media pages. You can find more episodes of serial killers and all other Parcast originals for free on Spotify. Not only does Spotify already have all of your favorite music, but now Spotify is making it easy for you

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Serial Killers was created by Max Cutler and developed by Ron Cutler. Sound designed by Ron Shapiro with production assistance by Joel Stein, Carly Madden, and Maggie Admeier. Serial Killers is written by Donnie Goffstein and John T. Gray and stars Greg Polson and Vanessa Richardson. A beloved 75-year-old man washing up getting ready for bed is brutally beaten and killed. Despite an exhaustive investigation, the killer avoids arrest and then strikes again. I'm Global News crime reporter Nancy Hicks. You might listen to a lot of true crime podcasts this year, but they're not crime beat. Search for and follow the award-winning podcast Crime Beat on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music, and wherever you find your favorite podcasts.

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