Killer Stories with Harvey Guillén - “The Sorcerer” Pt. 2 - Ahmad Suradji

Episode Date: March 13, 2018

Many people innocently dream of having super powers. But Ahmad Suradji’s dreams led him to become a murderous “Sorcerer from Hell” who killed 42 women in his quest to become invincible. We explore Suradji’s path to killing, including a disturbing dream that inspired him to kill women and drink their saliva.  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Hasbro is not a sponsor of this promotion. Due to the graphic nature of this killer's crimes, listener discretion is advised. This episode includes dramatizations and discussions of murder and assault that some people may find offensive. We advise extreme caution for children under 13. Since the beginning of time, humans have dreamed of superheroes. Look, up in the sky, it's a bird. It's a plane.

It's Superman. The ancient Greeks told countless stories of the Almighty gods. They believed some mortal-born heroes, like Ariadne, could be elevated to all-powerful godhood by a process of apotheosis. Scandinavian folklore and Norse mythology used the idea of superpowers during the Viking Age, as they created superhumans like Thor, who protected humanity from evil with his hammer. If we do nothing, they will destroy us. You even think about betraying him? I'll kill you.

Since Lee Drake developed the first modern superhero, Mandrake the magician in 1934, superhero comic books, movies, and merchandise, have taken the world by storm. Every day, people around the world dream of magically gaining superhuman strength. Of obtaining the powers of animals. Spider-Man, Spider-Man, does whatever a spider can spins a web, any size, catch your seeds, just like flies, look out, here comes the Spider-Man. Of invincibility. While fantasies of superpowers may be innocent fun for most kids around the world, one man's desire for superhuman invincibility led to mass murder.

Desperately desiring the power to be indestructible, one evil sorcerer named Ahmad Saraji killed 42 innocent women, aged 17 to 40. Saraji believed he would gain superpowers if he drank the saliva of 70 victims. So between the years of 1986 and 1997, this evil sorcerer performed healing rituals on dozens of his clients. But what did these so-called healing rituals really consist of? Brutal strangulation and cold-blooded murder. And so, Amad Saraji became known as, the Sorcerer from Hell. Hi, I'm Greg Poulson, and this is serial killers.

Today we're going to continue our dive into the life of Amad Saraji and the fascinating world of Indonesian sorcery. I'm here with my co-host, Vanessa Richardson. Please note, Vanessa is not a licensed psychologist just a psychiatrist, but has done a lot of research for the show. Hi, everyone. We'd like to ask a quick favor. Would you leave a five-star review of serial killers on your favorite podcast directory? It seems so simple, but it really helps us out. And don't forget to subscribe all you're there because a new episode comes out every Monday.

You can also find us on Facebook and Instagram at Parcast. And on Twitter at Parcast Network. Now, let's get back to the case of Amad Saraji. Ahmad Saraji, who we began studying last week, was raised in Java, a rural part of Indonesia in the early 1950s. As a child, Saraji was abused by his father. Which we know deeply harmed Saraji's psyche. In general, childhood abuse is known to damage children's mental health so severely that, according to one study, 80% of 21-year-olds who faced abuse met criteria for at least one psychological disorder. Clearly, Saraji similarly faced serious psychological damage.

And Saraji's father influenced him in other ways as well. Saraji's father was also a sorcerer, who would eventually be Saraji's sole teacher. We learned the significance of sorcery in Indonesian religion, culture, and history. Magic and spirit-based healing are actually very common and normalized in Saraji's culture. They're symbols of healing and happiness in Indonesia. Well, that is until Saraji came around. At the end of last week's episode, Saraji had just concluded his sorcery training. And now we'll explore what led Saraji down a horrific path of murder.

Let's begin where we left off. By his mid-30s in the late 1980s, Saraji had successfully developed his sorcery practice and already had a steady stream of clients. He managed to present himself as a deeply respected and wise member of his community. Saraji had three wives, who were actually all sisters, He married the oldest sister, Tumini first, and soon after he married the two others as well. Though it was common in Indonesia to have multiple wives, it was very unusual for all the wives to be related. Nonetheless, together they had a total of nine children.

With this big and seemingly happy family, Saraji managed to use his many children and his sorcery to create an illusion that he was a normal, trustworthy member of society. But then, in 1986, when Saraji was, was 37, everything began to go south. Saraji was struck with a dream, the most realistic dream he'd ever encountered. In his sleep, Saraji was visited by his deceased father, who summoned Saraji with crucial advice to, quote, drink the saliva of 70 women and you will become invincible, end quote. Saraji woke up the next morning with the crystal clear recollection of this fateful dream. He later believed that the dream caused him to regain childhood memories of his father telling him

the same advice as a kid. He should drink the saliva of 70 women and become invincible. Saraji decided this advice must be true. He became determined to make his dream a reality. This may all sound like an absurd supervillain origin story, but unfortunately it was all too real for Saraji and his 42 victims. As far as we know, this singular dream, this recovered memory of fatherly advice, is the precise moment that drastically changed Saraji's life. This one thought is supposedly what transformed him from a spiritual leader into a sociopathic mass murder. And even though Saraji had previously spent time in prison, his crimes were nonviolent offenses. This is the first time we have seen any sign of Saraji's violent tendencies. As with most serial killers, it's

rare for a single instance to spawn their violence. Usually they experience a gradual progression into increased violence throughout their lives. It's frankly impossible to imagine how one dream could so greatly affect a man's decisions. In an attempt to understand this pivotal moment in our killer's life, let's take a deeper look at his dream and dream theory in general. Well, we can see just how unique Suraji's case is by comparing him to some other notable serial killers and their relationships with dreams. It's not unconsored. common for sociopathic murderers to dream of violence. For example, serial killer Edmund Kemper dreamt of murdering his own mother before he actually killed her. And serial killer Gary

Ridgeway often spoke of his bizarre dreams and fantasies of both having sex with his mom and also killing her. Though Ridgeway didn't actually kill his mother, his disturbed relationship with his mom factored into his mass murder spree. Interestingly, all three of these killers dreams involved a parent who abused them. But Kemper and Ridgeway are different than Saraji in a crucial way. With both of those cases, the dreams explicitly glorified violence and perversion. They demonstrated the killer's persistent violent fantasies. Saraji's dream, however, was a rather calm-sounding dream. That simply included his father's advice.

Nobody in Saraji's dream was violent to anyone. That's a great point. Though Saraji's dream ultimately did lead to murder, the dream itself did not contain violence. This may mean that Saraji was not as motivated by violent dreams as killers like Kemper and Ridgeway. Rather, Saraji's father's advice is what primarily guided Saraji's behavior. This makes me think that Saraji may have genuinely believed his own prophetic dream. I agree. As far as we know, Saraji didn't dream of violently murdering many women. If Saraji attested to violent dreams, this might indicate that Saraji had an instinctive desire for violence,

that he glorified murder in his mind. However, he seemingly didn't fantasize about the actual act of murder, but rather just the universally desirable result of invincibility. Even though we obviously can't know what every dream means to each individual, what do dream analysts in general think about nightmares that include our parents? According to many dream analysts, every person in your dream just represents another aspect of yourself. For example, let's say you dream about a huge argument between you and your brother. That might be a sign that I'm deeply angry with my brother? Well, actually, many dream analysts would pose a different interpretation. Rather, you should ask,

what emotional part of myself is symbolized by your brother? For example, maybe your brother represents your memories of childhood glee. So in analyzing your dream, you aren't necessarily fighting with your brother. You're fighting with your memories of childhood glee. So maybe this dream would be a sign that I feel nostalgia for my childhood innocence. Exactly. So in reconsidering Saraji's dream, we should think about what part of Saraji is represented by his advice-giving father. We know that Saraji's father abused him.

Saraji's father could have representative feeling of insecurity and weakness. It's especially interesting that it was Saraji's father in this dream who gave him advice for how to become invincible. To Saraji, this dream may have felt like a way to finally reverse his childhood, to finally find a solution to all of his insecurities. His fears, represented by his father, were speaking to Saraji and finally giving him a root to inner strength and happiness. It's also peculiar that after waking up from the dream, Saraji regained memories of his father telling him the same advice as a child. Do you think his father might have actually told him that advice? Could Saraji have just imagined it? It's possible that Saraji's father may have actually said this to Saraji as a child.

After all, he was a practicing sorcerer who believed in magical spirits and spells. Yet it's still odd that he had entirely forgotten about this childhood memory. Odd, but possible. Some memories can be deeply tucked away in our brains and only remembered many years later, after seemingly random events. It's also very possible that Saraji's father never gave this advice to Saraji, and that Saraji created a fake memory. Created a fake memory? Believe it or not, memory is surprisingly subjective.

Though we often view our memories as facts, studies have shown that our memories of events, studies have shown that our memories of events are not always reliable indicators of what actually happened. One researcher, Elizabeth Loftus, even showed that a simple suggestion of fake events can induce false memories. She also proved that as more time passes from a given event, the more likely you are to develop false memories of that event. Just think of the times you fought with your significant other about who said what. Both of you may actually remember different truths, and clearly only one of those truths was a reality. So Sarachi might have woken up with a supposed memory of his father's advice, but that memory might not have actually ever happened.

Exactly. But regardless of whether Saraji dreamed the prophecy or accurately remembered it, Saraji's father is not the one to blame. Rather, Saraji was the one who decided to believe the prophecy. Saraji was the one who decided to actually murder 42 innocent women. And beyond that, Saraji has said the following, quote, my father did not specifically advise me to kill people, end quote. So even though Saraji believed that his father advised him to consume 70 women's saliva, his father never said that he should murder the women. Saraji came up with that himself.

This reveals Saraji's independent initiative to murder so many women. Okay, so we understand the ins and outs of Saraji's dream at his father's supposed advice, but something is still unclear. How could anyone actually believe such absurd-sounding advice? Did Saraji honestly think that women's saliva would grant him invincibility? Or is it possible that either drugs or mental illness were involved? We, unfortunately, will never know for sure, but it does seem possible that a drug induced his strong dream. Though we don't have records of Saraji specifically using drugs, drugs were very common in Indonesia in the late 20th century.

Along with opium and marijuana, it was common. for Indonesians to drink Lapin, a very potent alcohol that blends several different spirits, pills, herbs, and wines. So perhaps his dream occurred as a result of some sort of potent alcohol or hallucinogenic drug. But even if that were so, Saraji continued to believe the dream throughout the rest of his life, even when he clearly was not on drugs. We don't know that Saraji suffered from any mental illness like schizophrenia or delusional disorder and without a psychiatrist's in-person evaluation of him, we'll never know for sure.

But given that Saraji remained very consistent about his dream and his goals throughout the rest of his life, I would lean towards saying he did not have a delusion-related mental illness. I agree that it's quite difficult to relate to Saraji's irrational belief. However, we must remember that he spent a good portion of his sane life believing that magical rituals could summon spirits and consequently heal people's physical weaknesses. In that context, believing this fateful prophecy may seem a bit less extreme. True. And even if we can't fully comprehend how Saraji actually believed his dream, the unfortunate fact is that Saraji became obsessed with this fantasy,

so obsessed with obtaining superpowers that he would commit countless, unthinkably horrific murders. Eleven years of brutality were only just about to begin. We'll return to our story in just a moment from the Parcast Network. And now back to the story. Ahmad Saraji was quoted saying, so I was thinking it should take ages if I have to wait to get 70 women. Because I was trying to get to 70 as fast as possible, I took my own initiative to kill.

That was the reason why from 1986 until now I killed 42 women. Saraji's prophetic dream occurred in 1986, when Saraji was in his late 30s, and by the end of that same year, Saraji had already embarked on his murder spree. and unfortunately, he already had a large base of clients that were the perfect targets for him to murder. Unlike many serial killers who carefully consider the details of their victims, Saraji carelessly killed the random women who came to him.

So what were Saraji's clients usually looking for? What kind of help would they ask him for, and what would Saraja usually do to help them, before he began murdering them, that is? Indonesians sought out the help of sorcerers and shamans for all sorts of reasons. The majority of Saraji's clients already happened to be women, though he did occasionally see men as well. One local woman said that she, quote, heard he can move clouds to prevent the rain, end quote. Saraji was known for using these types of telekinetics. In addition to believing Saraji could influence the weather, his clients also came to him with varying issues from physical health problems to therapeutic counseling.

Some of his clients were insecure wives who wanted to cast spells on their husbands to prevent. prevent them from having affairs. Other clients had recently had disagreements with their spouses and sought answers or romantic advice. Saraji even saw sex workers looking for magic to gain more clients. It sounds like most clients wanted some sort of shortcut solution to their problems. Some also just likely wanted a respected, objective person to vent to and give them advice. For some clients, he was not too different from a Western therapist, but then for others seeking magic, he cast a wide range of spells and rituals. What does a typical shamanistic ritual consist of?

While we don't know Saraji's exact practices, we do know common sorcery rituals practiced in Indonesia, and it is likely that Saraji engaged in similar practices. One common sorcery practice known as Ayam Chimani was a ritual used to cure physical illnesses. In this ritual, the sorcerer holds up a living black chicken next to the sick client. The shaman then uses his spiritual powers

to transfer the sickness out of the human's body and into the black chicken. Once the sorcerer has removed all the spirits from the client, the sorcerer then kills the chicken. When clients ask for beauty or strength, the sorcerer might physically insert a piece of gold or jewelry into the client's body. They usually target the specific area that needs improving,

like a weak leg or an oddly colored birthmark. Some sorcerer, might not actually surgically place the gold inside the body, but instead they just hold the gold up to the client's body and magically transfer the gold's essence into the client. So the gold doesn't get physically placed inside of them? Well, the clients believe that the sorcerer transfers the gold's magical properties into them, regardless of whether the physical piece of gold ends up in their bodies.

These are just two examples of rituals that Indonesian sorcerers use to hopefully help their clients. Clearly, people deeply trust their sorcerers and are willing to engage in physical, personal rituals. To some listeners, it may seem a bit unconventional to believe in these practices. I'm wondering, is there any scientific or statistical basis that such shamanism and spiritual healing is at all effective? This is clearly a debated topic, but I will say that believing in magic-based healing could provide tangible cures via the placebo effect. In other words, if a patient simply believes a magic treatment will work, it's possible that they will experience a benefit from the magic treatment. So, for example, let's say I have an awful headache. You claim a great new pill will cure my headache.

But the pill you give me is actually just a tablet of sugar. Because I believe this fake pill will work, I might actually cure my headache through placebo effect. Exactly. And there have been many scientific studies proving that the placebo response has tangible effects on human health. Here's AP correspondent Mike Garcia reporting on one recent study. It's called the placebo effect, and recent research indicates it can work. According to research published online in Lancet, the British Medical Journal, patients with Parkinson's disease were given dummy pills,

and their brains released the feel-good chemical dopamine. And researchers say there were other changes in brain activity. Why? Walter Brown, a clinical professor of psychiatry at Brown and Tufts University, says simply that when you think you're going to get a drug that helps, your brain reacts as if it's getting relief. So I see no reason why shamanism and spiritual healing couldn't, at a minimum, help some people in this regard as a sort of placebo. And beyond the placebo effect, physician Greg Plotnikoff,

the director of University of Minnesota's Center for Spirituality and Healing, is an outspoken proponent of the power of faith in healing. Here he is. I believe that we should take faith very seriously. And as a physician, my role is, to understand what are the issues at play for this patient in terms of their illness as a spiritual crisis. I'm not to hand over things. Gosh, Mrs. Jones, the prescription for you is Psalm 49. I'm there to really support people's search for answers. Okay, so we've seen how sorcery and magic are not only a

deeply ingrained part of Indonesian culture, but also how they might even tangibly help people. This is also important in understanding Saraji's victims. They went to him for spiritual guidance and healing only to later be murdered by him. Given the value that their culture places on the supernatural, it's understandable why these clients and victims would visit Saraji. Though we don't know exactly how many clients visited him in total, we do know that Saraji killed at least 42 of them. His victim's ages ranged from 17 to 40 years old,

and all 42 victims were women, in accordance with Saraji's dream. In a small rural town, the disappearance of so many young women was an unthinkable tragedy. His victim's families have spoken out about the unthinkable grief they faced. One victim's mother said how, quote, the memory of my daughter hasn't left me. What pain she must have felt then, end quote. To this day, she questions how any human could have committed such terrible, unforgivable acts. We've also heard from a victim's young daughter who barely knew her mother before Saraji killed her. This daughter has said, quote, I miss my mother terribly. Why did it have to be my mother who was killed?

One man's quest for invincibility destroyed far too many lives. But let's take a deeper look at how this man managed to kill so many women. Throughout the 11-year span from 1986 to 1997, Saraji's method of murder remained the same, as each female client knocked on Saraji's door seeking his help. He would kindly greet the woman as any sorcerer might. He would listen to them describe their spiritual need, desire, or purpose for visiting him. He would then accept each of their situations and invite them inside, after first charging them for his services.

As if killing them for their saliva was not enough, Saraji also made a profit off of these women. That certainly points to the idea that he wasn't just a visionary killer. He wasn't just some deliolive. He was a delusional man in search of a superpower, but rather Saraji was also an opportunistic scam artist. Clearly, Saraji did not only murder for invincibility. He also received money and some sort of perverted pleasure. Demonstrating traits of a hedonistic killer, someone who murders for personal gain. After accepting their payment, he would lead the women into a vacant sugarcane field. They would follow him deeper into the field, where there was a pre-dug two-to-three-foot deep hole in the ground.

That's where his healing ritual would begin. In some cases, Saraji actually forced the women to help him dig the hole, the hole that would eventually become their grave. He would assure them that this was just part of his healing process. Next, he instructed them to climb into the hole, where he buried them waist deep, allegedly as part of the ritual. Though many of the women likely felt some level of discomfort with all this, it's important to remember that Saraji was a deeply respected member of his community.

These women thought he was not only very trustworthy, but also selflessly trying to rescue them from their debilitating problems. Once inside the hole, Saraji bound their wrists and feet with rope so they couldn't move. He then forced them to sit down as he stretched out their legs. This is when he began burying them in the dirt. And at this point, with the women unable to move, Saraji no longer pretended that he was performing a healing ritual. He strangled each and every one of them. them to death. Quote, it took 10 to 15 minutes to kill her.

I don't need that much saliva. It's just a requisite, end quote. After their death, he would twist their heads around so he could lap up their saliva. He would then strip their clothes off, occasionally steal their jewelry, and bury them facing toward his house. He believed that would help channel their spirits back to him, further helping his invincibility. Quote, if I bury her without any lining, her body would decompose. faster. I rolled her clothes and put them inside plastic bags. I brought two plastic bags with me,

and then I headed home. We'll return to our story in just a moment. Kayak gets my flight, hotel, and rental car right, so I can tune out travel advice that's just plain wrong. Bro, Skycoin, way better than points. Never fly during a Scorpio full moon. Just tell the manager you'll sue. Instant room. upgrade. Stop taking bad travel advice. Start comparing hundreds of sites with kayak and get your trip right. Kayak, got that right. You tell yourself, no one wants your college-era band teas, but on Deepop, people are searching for exactly what you've got. You once paid a small fortune for them at merch stands. Now, a teenager who calls them vintage will offer that same small fortune back. Sell them easily on

Deepop. Just snap a few photos and we'll take care of the rest. Who knew? your questionable music taste will be a money-making machine. Your style can make you cash. Start selling on Deepop, where taste recognizes taste. And now let's continue the story. Ahmad Saraji managed to pull off this tragic scheme for 11 years. With so many young women going missing in this world village, it's hard to believe that no one suspected Saraji,

that there weren't massive governmental efforts to find these women's captor. We have to remember that this took place in the 1980s and 1990s. 1990s in rural Indonesia, where the record-keeping and investigative forces were not particularly effective. But Saraji's method of preparing the women was also strategic to avoid capture. The women who came to Saraji were usually ashamed and embarrassed to go to a sorcerer. Just as there is a negative stigma around seeing therapists in some parts of the world, many Indonesians feel that seeing a sorcerer is an embarrassing admittance that they can't handle their problems. A woman struggling with sexual problems or insecurities

about her beauty would not likely talk to her family about these very personal issues. And so her solution would be to privately go to the local sorcerer, where she could fix her embarrassing insecurities without anyone ever knowing of them. However, that means that these women often visited Saraji without telling anyone where they were going. Then when these women never came home, their families had no clue where they'd been. Nobody could point a finger to Saraji. So Saraji successfully encouraged this culture around his sorcery that women should be private about visiting him, that it was important to not tell anyone that you desired his service.

And on other occasions, Saraji specifically sought out women that he saw as vulnerable targets, isolated victims who could disappear without anyone noticing. That's right. During times when business slowed, Saraji hired sex workers to take part in his murderous ritual. Forensic experts later learned that there was no sexual activity between Saraji and these victims. Rather, Saraji treated them just like his other victims. He tied them up, strangled them, and slurped their saliva. In some instances, the women did feel scared before Saraji began its ritual. Quote, one of my victims, Dewee, was scared because we had to walk through a cemetery to get

to the sugar cane plantation. I told her it was fine. She said to me, I'm scared. Ask your wife to accompany me. Daywe was the first one asking my wife to come along. That's how my first wife got to know about the murders, end quote. Unfortunately, Saraji's wives' involvement didn't stop there. As we remember, Saraji had three wives who were all sisters. Eventually, all three of them came to know about Saraji's murderous schemes. Not only did they keep the murders a secret, they provided crucial assistance. His first wife, Tumini, routinely led the victims out to the hole along with Saraji.

The presence of a woman often comforted Saraji's victims and allowed him to easily tie them up. Though Saraji's other two wives never accompanied the victims outside, they witnessed his victims come into their house and then never return. And perhaps most significantly, all three of his wives acted as advertisers of sorts for Saraji. Despite knowing his murderous intentions, they all told their community members stories about how their husband was a great, trustworthy man, that he has unbelievable magic abilities, that they should come and try out his services.

It's hard to understand how they could have gone. along with this plan. How did they benefit from Saraji's killings? Though we don't have public records of interviews with his wives, I can see several factors at play here. For one, there were certainly financial motivations. Needing to feed their nine children, Saraji's wives likely depended on him for survival. Especially in the 1980s in rural Indonesia, women were increasingly reliant on their husbands and divorce was deeply stigmatized. Even if they disagreed with Saraji's murders, they may not have had the

option to leave him, let alone stop him. Especially because Saraji likely intimidated them, too. You think Saraji threatened to kill them? Possibly. We've already established Sharaji as a ruthless killer who would do anything to obtain his dream of invincibility. He clearly needed help making his victims feel comfortable and then also advertising his practice. So who better to trust than your wives? Whether or not he explicitly threatened them, it seems likely that they were very scared of him after seeing his first few murders, though it is worth noting that we don't know whether Saraji was a domestic

abuser. I'm wondering how Saraji felt about his murders. Did Saraji think that these murders were for a better cause? Did he know that what he was doing was wrong? Did he ever express remorse for his actions? I would argue that Saraji did not actually believe he was killing for a better cause. I'm confident that he knew that what he was doing was wrong, illegal and evil. To better understand this, let's first look at the details of his eventual capture. One night in April 1997, 21-year-old Sri Kamala Dewee decided she wanted advice from Saraji. But luckily, unlike so many women before her, she told her friend Andreas she wanted to go see Saraji. She asked Andreas to give her a ride and to keep her outing a secret.

Saraji murdered young Kamala that night. But thankfully, the next few days were plagued by a storm. a storm that washed away the topsoil over her buried body. When a young farmer soon wandered through the sugarcane field, he noticed the odd-looking mound, only to discover Kamala's recently murdered body. After Kamala's friend Andreas saw the murdered body, Andreas informed authorities that he had dropped Kamala off at Saraji's house. Thankfully, Andreas would be a key witness to prove that Saraji was the last man

to see Kamala alive. The police would eventually dig up more of the sugar cane field to find a mass grave with many other women that Saraji had murdered. In May of 1997, Saraji, a 48-year-old man, was finally arrested. Though he denied it all at first, Saraji eventually confessed to an increasing number of murders, finally revealing his total number of 42 murders. He later even reenacted his horrific killings for the police, using mannequins and real-life locations.

Saraji would be charged with murdering 40. Two women. Oddly enough, despite his many confessions to the police during the trial, Saraji claimed to be innocent and that the police forced him into these confessions. Fortunately, there was extensive evidence against Saraji. Not only did he provide videotaped reenactments of his crimes, but the police found dozens of bodies buried in his isolated backyard. So in the end, justice prevailed.

Saraji was convicted and given the death penalty. On July 10, 2008, 11 years after his arrest, one of the most evil men to ever face Indonesia would finally be dead, put to death by firing squad. His three wives would also be arrested and charged with assisting in the murders. His first wife, Tumini, was tried and convicted as his accomplice after she confessed to her role, but the other two wives were later released. After Saraji's conviction, an Indonesian film director met with him to discuss his crimes. The directors stated that, quote, as far as my meeting with him went, he was a very normal person.

He was very conscious of what he did, and he understood the risks of his actions. He told me that he committed the murders, and he realized that one day he would be found out, end quote. Ahmad Saraji, a man who not only murdered dozens of women, but also took their money and made them dig their own graves. A man who manipulated the police, told extensive lies to a jury and never showed remorse for his victims. This is definitely a man who was aware of his evil actions, who knows what he was doing was wrong. Yes, and he was so driven by a fantastical desire for power that he destroyed countless lives. Thanks again for tuning in to serial killers. If you want to listen to any previous episodes of serial killers, you can find them on iTunes, Google Play, SoundCloud,

Stitcher, and Spotify, or on our website, parcast.com. Spelm. P.A.R. If you like what you hear, please leave a five-star review or tell us what you think on social media. We're on Facebook and Instagram as at Parcast and Twitter at Parcast Network. It seems simple, but it really helps our show. Join us next Monday as we dive into the twisted psyche of a new murderer. Have a killer week. Serial Killers was created by Max Cutler. It is a production of Cutler media and is part of the Parcast Network.

It is produced by Max and Ron Cutler, sound design by Ron Shapiro, with production assistants by Joel Stein and Carrie Murphy. Additional Production Assistance by Carly Madden and Maggie Admire. Serial Killers is written by Ryan Elkins and stars Greg Paulson and Vanessa Richardson. You want to hear something spooky. Some monster, it reminded me of Bigfoot. Monsters Among Us is a weekly podcast featuring true stories of the paranormal. One of the boys started to exhibit demonic possession. Stories straight from the witnesses' mouths themselves.

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I just thought it was a sleeping bag, and there was a full of blood. Somebody somewhere knows something. I'm Jordan Sillers. Season two is out now with new episodes every Thursday. Listen on the IHart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.