Killer Stories with Harvey Guillén - “The Werewolf of Wysteria” - Albert Fish

Episode Date: July 10, 2017

Albert Fish preyed on young children in the early 1900s, molesting, murdering, and even cannibalizing them. He wasn’t caught until the 1930s, when three of his most horrifying crimes came to light. This week, Greg and Vanessa discuss Fish’s tumultuous childhood, his paraphilic disorders, and two of his most infamous victims.  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Due to the graphic nature of this killer's crimes, listener discretion is advised. This episode includes dramatizations and discussions of murder and assault that some people may find offensive. We advise extreme caution for children under 13. Childhood is filled with stories. Some are funny, some are fantastical, and some, well, some are frightening. As children, we all hear scary stories about a variety of monsters.

But there is one that kids have been warned about for generations. The Boogie Man. The Boogie Man is a monster that preys on children, takes them away and gobbles them up. Learning about the boogeyman is often a child's introduction to the idea of fear itself. It's a warning about the unknown threats that lurk in the world around them. As we grow up, we learn that the Boogie Man is a work of fiction. It was just a scary story. But what if I told you, once upon a time, there was a real-life boogie-man?

man, one that prayed on children, took them away, and gobbled them up. But this boogie man wasn't a monster with red eyes and razor-sharp claws, snatching children at night as they slept. He was actually an elderly man with gray hair and blue eyes, who would lead children off by their hand in broad daylight. His name was Albert Fish, and he was truly one of the most horrific human beings to ever exist. a childhood monster come to life, and the subject of today's show. His most infamous crimes took place in New York between the years of 1924 and 1928. Once who hear his story, you might find it easier to think of fish as a mythical monster, rather than, as he truly was, a man as real as you and me,

who committed some of the worst crimes imaginable against children. Hi, I'm Greg Poulson, and this is serial killers, a podcast, diving into the minds and motives of some of the world's most notorious serial killers. This is part one of our journey into the mind and crimes of Albert Fish, pedophile, child killer, and cannibal. If you want to listen to any episodes of serial killers, you can find them all on your favorite podcast directory. Don't forget to subscribe.

You can also listen on our website, p-a-c-c-s-c-com, spelled p-ar-c-c-c-s-t.com. A new episode comes out every Monday. Visit our Facebook page, Parcast, to join the conversation. Now, let us begin the true story of history's real-life boogeyman, the twisted tale of Albert Fish. He came shuffling down the street, mumbling to himself, making queer motions with his hands.

I'll never forget those hands. I shudder every time I think of them, how they opened and shut, opened and shut, opened and shut. I saw him looking toward Francis and the others. I saw his thick gray hair. His drooping gray mustache, everything about him seemed faded and gray. The gray man turned to me and tipped his cap, and then he went away. Those are the words of Anna McDonald, as she describes the man who kidnapped and murdered

her son, 8-year-old Francis MacDonald. This took place in 1924. Francis's killer wouldn't confess to this crime until he was already on death row in 1935. That man was Albert Fish. I'm here with my co-host Vanessa Richardson, who will be providing psychological insight into the case of Albert Fish and to answer the question so many have sought before us. Why?

It's important to note that Vanessa is not a licensed psychologist or psychiatrist, but like me, she is fascinated by the psychology of serial killers and has done a lot of research on this subject. Thanks, Greg. Anna McDonald's description of Albert Fish is a great insight into what made this man so dangerous. To most, Fish seemed like an eccentric yet harmless old man, but he was actually a cold, cunning, and opportunistic predator.

Even after he confessed to his crimes, people still had trouble believing he was capable of the things he said he had done. For those unfamiliar with Albert Fish's crimes, let's start with a quick overview. It's estimated that in his lifetime, fish sexually assaulted over 100 children, murdered 15, and consumed four of them. That's right. Consumed. Meaning he ate them. He was ultimately only convicted of one murder, that of 12-year-old Grace Budd.

It was after his guilty verdict and death sentence for this crime that Fish finally confessed to the assault and murder of Francis MacDonald and another boy, four-year-old Billy Gaffney. Fish himself couldn't pinpoint the reason for his compulsions to attack and murder children. Sometimes he blamed his experiences in an orphanage as a young boy, On other occasions, he proclaimed that his murders were sacrifices to God in order to atone for his sins. Happy is he that taketh thy little ones and dasheth their heads against the stones. Albert Fish was examined by multiple doctors in his lifetime, but the psychiatrist that spent the most time studying Fish was Dr. Frederick Wertham. On top of having sessions with Fish, Wertham checked into his background and interviewed those that knew him.

When he finally made his diagnosis, Wyrtham said that he had never seen a case like fishes before. In Wurtham's study of fish, the doctor uncovered a history of mental illness within Fish's family. This included an uncle with religious psychosis and a mother who suffered from hallucinations. Wurtham's ultimate diagnosis was that fish suffered from paranoid psychosis with a religious complex. That means he had hallucinations and delusions that were mostly of a religious nature. Vanessa, this diagnosis was made back in 1935. Does this still hold up today? Well, of course, our understanding of psychological disorders is constantly evolving, so while Wertham's observations provide valuable insight,

his diagnosis can be modernized, so to speak. So what updates would you make to Wertham's conclusions about fish? It seems likely that fish would fall somewhere on the schizophrenia spectrum. Schizophrenia is a type of psychotic disorder that is defined by abnormal thoughts and behaviors that often lead an individual to break with reality. In the case of Albert Fish, these abnormalities took the form of delusions and hallucinations. So delusions are irrational thoughts or ideas

that an individual believes are true despite facts or evidence that proves otherwise, and hallucinations are seeing or hearing things that simply are not there. At one point, Fish told Dr. Wertham, I had sort of an idea through Abraham offering his son Isaac as a sacrifice. It always seemed to me that I had to offer a child for sacrifice

to purge myself of iniquities, sins, and abominations in the sight of God. Fish believed that he was doing God's work by sacrificing children to atone for his sins, even though as a religion explicitly states, thou shall not kill. That's a perfect example of one of Fish's delusions. While Fish knew that killing was a sin, he still did it anyway, believing it was the right thing to do. Fish believed... If it wasn't right, then an angel would stop me at the last moment.

But of course, that didn't happen. And the hallucinations? Fish claimed at several points to have seen or heard various religious figures. He said they would tell him to do things. On one such occasion, Fish spent a whole night rolled up in a carpet on the floor, saying that St. John the Apostle told him to. On another occasion, Fish was observed by his eldest son trying to catch and kill a black cat. After building a trap to capture the cat, Fish brought his son, Albert Jr., into the basement to help him.

Fish ran through the basement attempting to catch the cat by hand, but according to Albert Jr., there was no black cat in sight. On top of this, there was another significant part of Wertham's diagnosis. Right. Worthing also concluded that the strongest driving force behind Fish's actions was a need to inflict pain on others and have others inflict pain on him for his own sexual gratification. There was no known perversion that fish did not practice and practice frequently. What are these so-called perversions, Wurtham, talked about? Well, these are fish's abnormal and unhealthy sexual behaviors and fantasies that he engaged in with his victims. In modern terms, we would refer to these perversions as paraphylic disorders. A paraphylic disorder is an extreme sexual interest or desire that, when acted on, is harmful to the individual or to others.

Based on Wyrtham's conclusions, Fish fits the criteria for multiple paraphylic disorders. The most significant ones are sexual masochism, sexual sadism, and pedophilia. In other words, hurting oneself during sex, hurting another during sex, and molesting children. Combined with the theory that Fish also exhibited symptoms of schizophrenia, this was a man with an extremely unhealthy mind, to put it mildly. Now that we have a general overview of Albert Fish, let's go back. and examine how he came to be that way. In order to fully understand the story of Albert Fish, we need to explore the childhood of this child killer.

We'll return to our story in just a moment. Yamava Resort and Casino at San Manuel is California's number one entertainment destination for today's superstars. Catch the Jonas Brothers return to the Yamava theater stage on April 30th, the powerful vocals of Demi Lovato on May 17th, and the signature Southern Country Rock of Eric Church

on July 19th. Tickets on sale now at Yamava Theater.com. Only at Yamava Resort and Casino, celebrating its 40th anniversary. You in? Must be 21 to enter. Kayak gets my flight, hotel, and rental car right, so I can tune out travel advice that's just plain wrong. Bro, Skycoin, way better than points. Never fly during a Scorpio full moon. Just tell the manager you'll sue. Instant room upgrade. Stop taking bad travel advice. Start comparing hundreds of sites with kayak and get your trip right. Kayak. Got that right. Now the story continues. Albert Fish was actually born Hamilton Howard Fish in Washington, D.C. on May 19, 1870. Born to Randall and Ellen Fish, Hamilton was the youngest

of four. In 1875, Randall Fish suddenly died of a heart attack when Hamilton was only five years old. This left Ellen Fish should take care of her four children alone. Unable to support them all, Helen put Hamilton into the care of St. John's orphanage, where he would remain until 1879. The following is a short excerpt from Dr. Wortham's testimony during the trial of Albert Fish. Now, the experience in the orphanage is very important because he dates his earliest sexual abnormalities to this time. He described to me very vividly that in that,

place, not only did the inmates commit all sorts of sensory acts with each other in which he joined, but also it made the greatest impression on him. One of the guardians there, a sister or teacher, had the habit of frequently whipping the boys and taking six at a time and having them strip and having one see what happened to the others. And he remembers very vividly, seeing the other boys whipped. And he recalls that before the eight years, age of seven, he had his first sexual feeling. And where did he get that feeling from? From being whipped himself and from seeing other boys whipped and screaming.

In this piece of testimony, Wertham is laying the groundwork for the origins of Fish's most significant motivations. Fish himself credited these four years in the orphanage as where he, quote, learned to lie, beg, and steal. I was there until I was nine. and that's where I got started wrong. We were unmercifully whipped. I saw boys doing many things they should not have done. Vanessa, based on Wertham's testimony and Fish's own words,

what conclusions can we draw about Fish's time in the orphanage? Well, Greg, it seems clear that these years were formative to his many disorders and criminal activities. As we've talked about with other serial killers, being subjected to physical and sexual abuse as a child and being forced to witness the physical, and sexual abuse of others is incredibly damaging. For Fish, it was a trauma that he internalized and then repeated throughout his life with his child victims.

This is where he developed his sexual attraction to small children, particularly young boys, and also developed the link between sex and violence. He in turn equated sexual gratification with inflicting pain on others and having pain inflicted on him. Fish's need for causing pain and receiving it was his chief impulse. I always had a desire to inflict pain on others and to have others inflict pain on me. I always seem to enjoy everything that hurt. The desire to inflict pain, that is all that is uppermost. This is known as Sexual Sadism Disorder and Sexual Massacism Disorder,

two of the paraphylic disorders we touched on previously. Sexual Sadism Disorder is diagnosed when someone derives sexual gratification from causing pain or suffering in a non-consenting person. Sexual masochism disorder is when an individual gets sexual pleasure out of their own pain or suffering. This is only considered a disorder when these urges and desires cause distress or impairment in the individual. While Fish's sexual sadism is easy to track in his crimes, the sexual masochism manifested itself in other ways. Fish frequently engaged in self-flagellation, typically while masturbating. On more than one occasion, he was witnessed beating himself with a nail-studded paddle while pleasuring himself.

Fish also frequently stuck himself with needles in and around his abdomen and genitals, sometimes sticking them in so far that he could not retrieve them. After he was arrested, Fish admitted to this practice, but he was not believed. At least not until an X-ray revealed 27 needles embedded in his pelvic region. When asked why he stuck needles into his body, Fish's answers ranged from simple to grandiose. He once responded, There is a mood that comes over me. And I just can't help myself.

But on another occasion, his answer was much different, as he explained. I had a message from Christ. Fish's time in the orphanage could be the origin of his religious delusions and hallucinations. Wortham says the boys there could have been abused by a sister, a nun. Seeing a religious authority figure do such brutal, sadistic things could have been what ultimately made Fish believe these acts were sanctioned by God himself. Okay, let's get back to Fish's timeline. In 1879, his mother secured a federal job and was finally able to bring her son home from the orphanage.

At around age 15, Hamilton changed his first name to Albert, to rid himself of the nickname his peers had given him ham and eggs. He got the name Albert from a younger sibling who had died as a baby. Taking on this new name provided an escape for fish. It freed him from the humiliating nickname, but it also freed him from the trauma he had experienced up until that point. By taking a new name, particularly the name of a deceased younger brother, Fish experienced a kind of rebirth, a new beginning. It was like Fish was starting his own life over from where his baby brother had left off when he died. Hamilton was a victim, abused and bullied by others.

By giving up that name, Fish could disassociate from that identity. As Albert, he could define his own image and identity and take control of his life for the first time. Like a lot of Fish's life, not much is known about a lot of, as teen years. He told Wertham that as a teen he worked as a prostitute, having sex with men for money. It's unclear when and for how long this went on. At around age 17, Fish began working as a laborer for hire, most notably as a house painter. This detail will be important later on. In the 1890s, two significant events happened in Fish's life. He moved from Washington, D.C. to New York City with his mother, and then in 1898, Fish married his first wife.

Anna. Over the next 19 years, Albert and Anna had six children. So you might be wondering, what was this infamous child killer and sexual predator like as a husband and father? We'll get into that question. As we look at Albert Fish, the family man versus the boogeyman. Working as a house painter to support his family, Albert traveled to different cities and states to find work. His wife Anna stayed at home with their six children. All must have seen fine to Albert. Since what came next was a huge shock to him. In 1917, after 19 years of marriage, Anna suddenly abandoned Albert and their children to run off with another man. Anna took every possession in their home and sold it, leaving her husband and children with literally nothing. Albert Fish was suddenly

a single parent and provide her for his six children. Fish would later hold his wife's desertion as being akin to his own crimes of abusing and murdering children. In a letter he sent to one of his daughters from jail, Fish wrote, All I hope for, all I want to live for, is to be able to go in court and tell what a bitch of a mother all of you had, the kind of wife I had. In this letter, Fish seems to insinuate

that he was the victim of his wife's mistreatment. In Fish's warped mind, he believed others would be more sympathetic to him once they learned about what his wife had done to him. It's as though he had thought his crimes were on the same level as his wife's abandonment of him and her children. Do you believe his wife's desertion was a tipping point for Fish? Could this have been what pushed him over the edge?

Well, if Fish's criminal activity began after his wife left him, then yes. Being abandoned and left with six children to care for alone would be a traumatic experience to anyone, serial killer or not. If Fish had these violent and sexual urges before, and never acted on them, this could have finally made him snap. But according to Fish's sessions with Dr. Wortham, he had already been assaulting children for years before this. During the trial, Fish's defense attorney, James Dempsey, attempted to prove that Fish was legally insane by demonstrating the extreme nature of his actions.

Part of this strategy meant questioning Wyrtham about Fish's long and brutal history of sexual abuse. Dr. Wortham, please continue. He started his sexual career, so to say, at the age of 17, at the time he became a painter. Now, that profession of painter, this man has used as a convenience. He worked in many different institutions. He worked in any kind of home where there were children, where he thought he could get children. In these places, he made his headquarters, the basement, or the cellar.

Now, this man has roamed around in basements and cellars for 50 years. There were so many innumerable instances that I can't begin to give you how many there are. But I believe, to the best of my knowledge, that he has raped 100 children, at least. We'll return to our story in just a moment from the Pardcast Network. Now, our story continues. Albert Fish's occupation as a painter moved him around a lot. It seems that the majority of his crimes took place while he was off on a job.

If something went wrong or anyone became suspicious, Fish could easily pick up and move on to his next assignment. Wortham went on to detail several gruesome assaults during this time period that Fish had recounted to him. One such story took place in 1911, when Fish met a 19-year-old named Thomas Kedin. Kedin looked young for his age and was most likely mentally handicapped. The following description is a graphic retelling of Fish's assault on Thomas Ketton. Listen to discretion is advised. Fish took Kedden to an abandoned farmhouse, where he tied him up and tortured him for weeks on end.

When the job Fish had been working on was finished, fish could no longer afford to keep Kedden as his prison. As a sadistic final act, Fish cut Kedin very badly, intending to dismember him. But then, he stopped himself. According to Waltham's testimony, Fish apparently had a change of heart. After seeing the agonized expression on Kedin's face, Fish cleaned the wounds as best he could. He untied Kedden, left him his clothes and a $10 bill, and then fled.

Fish admitted he had no idea if Kedin survived or not. he never tried to find out. So while, yes, his wife's betrayal and abandonment certainly did no favors to Fish's overall mental health, it was not what set him off originally. Fish had been carrying out crimes like these for years, including before and during the time he was married with children of his own. And these acts continued after his wife left him.

Vanessa, going back to the Kedin story for a moment, it's easy to focus on the brutality of this crime, but what do you think of Fish's change of heart when he saw the extreme pain in Kedin's face. Is this fish showing he was capable of empathy? It's possible. Fish was driven by his need to cause pain, but maybe here we see a time where he felt he went too far.

Seeing Kedin's expression could have triggered him to remember his time in the orphanage, where he himself was essentially a captive who was tortured by his caregivers. And this recognition may have been what made him stop, but we'll never really know. True. Now let's turn our focus to fish,

as a husband and father. During his testimony, Wertham told the court... Fish's prime sexual interest has only been children from the age of about five to 14 or 16. When asked about Fish's marriage, Wortham said that Fish didn't have the capacity for any kind of real feelings for any mature person,

including feelings of love or friendship. Having said that, Fish's first marriage to Anna lasted almost two decades. After Anna left him, Fish remarried three times. due to the fact that he never divorced his first wife, none of these subsequent marriages were legal. Vanessa, what kind of light does this shed on Fish, the husband? How is he able to maintain his first marriage of 19 years?

And then marry three additional times. Well, it's hard to say anything definitive, not much is known about these relationships. Fish did say that he engaged in sadomasochistic behavior in his sexual relationships with all of his wives. This was actually something he made sure they would be open to before they were married. While I can't speak to his other wives, Anna was only 19 when she married Fish in 1898, and Fish was 28.

With her husband being her only form of support, it's not surprising that Anna went along with what he wanted to do, whether she wanted to or not. It's likely that she was stuck, unable to survive without him. Right. So then it makes even more sense that when she left, it was because she had found someone else, another provider, so to speak. Although, if this other man could provide for her, why sell off all of their furniture and belongings? It's unclear how much Anna Fish had discovered about her husband's true nature. But the way she left, leaving Albert and the children with nothing, not even their possessions, is particularly callous. Do you think she was intentionally trying to hurt her family? More specifically, her husband?

It's possible. We can't know the kind of abuse that Albert subjected her to in their relationship, giving his sadistic tendencies. It could be she was trying to hurt him, the way he had hurt her during their marriage. Another possibility is that Anna was aware of Fish's criminality, or at least suspected it. So when she left, selling all their earthly belongings was a kind of purge for her. She was doing away with her old life entirely in an attempt to separate herself from what she had learned or what she had experienced. Now, let's turn to Fish the father figure. When his children were asked about their father, they described him as a gentle man who did,

not abuse them in any way. According to them, he didn't drink or smoke, and he was devoutly religious. All in all, he was a caring father to them. Vanessa, what do you take from this? According to his children, Fish was a good father and didn't abuse them, but we know he sexually assaulted and tortured kids everywhere he went. How is it possible for someone who committed such a violent and terrible acts to be a loving father? One of a serial killer's mental defense mechanisms is compartmentalization, It's the ability to split one's identity so that conflicting ideas, emotions, or urges are kept separate from one another. It's possible that Fish was able to split his identity as a father from his identity as a pedophilic sexual predator. But we're also taking the word of his children at face value.

Most of what they said about their father came out during his trial. When they were brought in to testify for his defense, they were purposefully trying to paint a positive picture of him. It's entirely possible that there could have been. something darker going on that they didn't admit or couldn't admit. If they were in a state of denial, they could have learned from their father how to compartmentalize his behavior, enabling them to ignore or deny his darker tendencies. This seems to be a valid possibility. Given how, when pressed, all of his children admitted to being aware of his strange behaviors, this included witnessing episodes of Fish's self-flagellation and his hallucinations. His eldest son,

Albert Fish Jr. recalled one event in particular. It was 1922. My brother's Henry, Gene, and I were playing football when we saw our father standing on a hill not too far from us. His hand was raised, and he was yelling something over and over. He was yelling, I am Christ. It's also interesting to note that Fish's daughters were the ones to give the most positive description of their father, while Fish's sons were less enthusiastic about him. Given Fish's preferred victims were a allegedly young boys, this could be a significant detail in shedding more light on what really went on in that family. When Fish confessed to the murder of Grace Budd, his namesake Albert Fish Jr.

gave the following comment to reporters who had tracked him down. Quote, the old skunk. I knew something like this would happen sooner or later. I want nothing to do with him, and I won't do anything to help him. Unquote. So it appears that Albert Jr. always knew more than he had perhaps ever led on, or could admit to before. When he heard what his father had done,

he believed it instantly and acted in disgust. And what was his dear father's response to his eldest son's public scorn? In a letter to one of his daughters, Fish made his feelings clear. He wrote, He is no son of mine. If you ever do anything else for me,

I want you to do this. Don't you ever call him your brother again. Never allow him inside your home. Teach your little ones to despise him. Those aren't exactly the words of a caring and supportive father. No, they are not. This excerpt betrays Fish's true nature, his need to lash out and inflict pain on others.

He wanted to hurt Albert Jr. in the way Albert Jr. had hurt him. While he may not have derived a sexual pleasure from this, it must have brought him some satisfaction to exert power over his eldest son in the form of turning his family against him. Ultimately, we'll never know if Fish subjected his own chance. children to any degree of abuse. But what is irrefutable is the abuse he inflicted on an innumerable number of children all over the country. At the beginning of the episode, I gave a brief summary of the only three murders Albert Fish confessed to on record with the police. The first of these

murders happened on July 14, 1924. It was a hot summer's day in the Port Richmond neighborhood of Staten Island, New York. Eight-year-old Francis McDonnell was playing outside alone when and his mother Anna McDonald went to check on him. Surveying the neighborhood, Anna saw an elderly man shuffling down the street, staring at her son. When the man noticed her watching him, he tipped his hat to her, and he walked away. Hours later, Anna was inside her family's apartment, tending to her infant daughter, as Francis went to play in the street with his friends and little brother. But unbeknownst to Anna, the elderly man had returned and had found his opportune moment.

According to Francis' friends, the old man beckoned Francis over to him as they continued to play. When they looked back over at his friend, they found that Francis and the old man were gone. When Francis didn't come home for dinner, Francis's brother told them about the old man. Francis's father, a Staten Island cop, formed a search party that scoured the entire neighborhood. Francis's body was found in the local woods, concealed under branches and leaves. According to the newspaper, Francis had been, quote, atrociously assaulted, and then strangled with his own suspenders. An autopsy revealed that Francis had undigested raisins in his stomach, and detectives believed that his kidnapper must have used these as a treat to gain Francis's trust and lure him away from his friends. Detectives had no leads or clues about who might have committed such a crime.

When Fish was finally arrested in 1934, he was questioned about this murder, but he denied the guilt, claiming he had nothing to do with it. It was only once he had been found guilty of the Grace Bud murder and sentenced to death that he finally confessed. It was the last murder he would confess to. Fish admitted that he had planned to dismember the boy, but he thought he had heard someone approaching in the woods that day, so he did his best to hide the body and fled. This case is important as it establishes Fischer's primary modus operandi in his killings. Fish's hunting ground for his victims were low-income neighborhoods like Port Richmond and Staten Island. Fish said that he preferred these kinds of neighborhoods, particularly neighborhoods with predominantly black populations. According to Fish, if a child went missing from these places, not much of a fuss was made over them.

This could be why most of FISH's victims were unknown as he was preying on the most vulnerable children, the ones whose disappearances would mostly go unreported in the newspapers because of their class or their race. Fish relied on this apathy as a cover for his crimes. In the case of Francis MacDonald, though, his kidnapping and murder was a huge story in the newspapers all around New York City, at least at first. Right. Well, Fish seems to have miscalculated with this selection of Francis McDonald. He must not have realized that this boy was the son of a Staten Island police officer who had the resources at his disposal to make sure his sons disappear. was noticed and investigated. But even then, Fish still wasn't caught.

The investigation came nowhere near finding him. True. He was able to slip in and out of neighborhoods like this easily and was very good at not getting caught. Like Fish said, he had bigger plans for killing Francis MacDonald. He had been planning on dismembering his body, but then he heard a noise. Even though Fish was in the throes of his compulsion to kill, he was still alert and aware enough of his surroundings to not take the risk of being discovered.

He took the time to conceal his crime first and then moved on. So what else of Fish's MO can we learn from this? Fish often gave his victims treats, such as candy, or, in Francis's case, raisins, to get them to go off with him. Sometimes he would even give them money, which in these poor neighborhoods that he frequented was an even greater incentive. This shows that Fish really understood the way a child's mind worked, that a child's trust and affection could be coaxed out of them. All fish had to do was give Francis a few raisins, and Francis willingly went with him all the way to the woods. He didn't fight or resist, at least that anyone witnessed. Now, Francis was playing with a group of other boys, all around the same age.

What do you think made fish choose Francis specifically? That's unclear, Greg. From what Anna McDonald said, she saw fish on their street earlier in the day looking at Francis. This was most likely the moment that fish selected him, but Fish never gave a reason for it. could be that Francis was simply the first unattended child that he saw, and that's what made him make up his mind. Fish was an opportunist. Like I said before, he was very careful and mindful about not getting caught. When he saw that Anna McDonald noticed him, he walked away and then waited for his chance to get to Francis when he wasn't being closely observed by his mother.

It's interesting that Fish knows not to approach Francis when his mother and adult is around, but that instead he approaches when Francis is around other children. Whereas Anna is immediately wary of fish, France's friends aren't suspicious of fish at all. They aren't concerned when he approaches them and then disappears with their friend. This again is an example of how well fish knows the minds of children. He knows that the other kids won't be an obstacle for him and that they won't make reliable witnesses later on.

The next murder that Fish confessed to, that of four-year-old Billy Gaffney in 1927, was very similar to what happened to Francis MacDonald. He was a young boy from a poor neighborhood who was taken when the opportunity was just right. Grace Budd, however, was different. Fish's journey to select her as his next victim was more complicated than the others before her,

and it was this deviation in his method that proved to be Fish's undoing. Grace's murder set off a chain of events that led to Fish's capture and his confession. But these stories will have to wait until next week. one will also talk about Fish's time in jail and his trial, for it was only after he was caught that the most gruesome details about his crimes came to light, including his cannibalism.

We'll also examine the legal defense of the insanity plea and how that turned out for Albert Fish. Thank you for listening to Serial Killers. If you enjoyed this episode, please tell your friends. Don't forget to subscribe to Serial Killers on iTunes, Google Play, SoundCloud, Stitcher, or any other podcast director. or through our website, parcast.com. That's spelled p-a-r-c-s-t-t-com.

A new episode of Serial Killers comes out every Monday. Let us know what you think and join the conversation on our Parcast Facebook page. You can tweet us at Parcast Network. That's P-A-R-C-A-S-T network. Have a killer week. Serial Killers was created by Max Cutler and developed by Ron Cutler.

It is a production of Cutler media and is part of the Parcast Network. It is produced by Max and Ron Cutler, sound designed by Ron Shapiro, with production assistance by Joel Stein and Maggie Admeier. Serial Killers is written by Catherine Lewis and stars Greg Poulson and Vanessa Richardson. The amazing cast of voice actors includes by alphabetical order Nicholas Masu and Steve Pinto. Blood Trails is a true crime podcast born in the outdoors, where the terrain is unforgiving, the evidence is scarce, and the truth gets buried under brush and silence. I've seen something in the road. I instantly thought it was a sleeping bed.

And there was a fool of blood. Somebody somewhere knows something. I'm Jordan Sillers. Season 2 is out now with new episodes every Thursday. Listen on the IHart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. A beloved 75-year-old man washing up getting ready for bed is brutally beaten and killed. Despite an exhaustive investigation, the killer avoids a. the rest and then strikes again.

I'm Global News crime reporter Nancy Hicks. You might listen to a lot of true crime podcasts this year, but they're not crime beat. Search for and follow the award-winning podcast Crime Beat on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music, and wherever you find your favorite podcasts.