Kinda Funny Gamescast: Video Game Podcast - Caroline Polachek Interview: Death Stranding 2, Kojima, and New Music - Kinda Funny Gamescast

Episode Date: June 19, 2025

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What is up, everybody, and welcome to a very special kind of funny games cast. It's finally happened. I had the pleasure of sitting down with one of the most talented vocalists and musicians working today, Caroline Polichick. My fiance introduced me to her music in 2019 with Caroline's first solo album, Peng. And since then, I don't think one week has passed without me listening to a Caroline song. Her music means the world to me, and it was so exciting to get the chance to sit down with her and chat. Caroline is joining me on The Gamescast because her and producer Daniel Harrell

have created the title song for Death Stranding 2, entitled On the Beach. But more importantly, to the context of this podcast and show and kind of funny as a whole, this all happened because I gave Hideo Kojima a copy of her latest album, Desire I Want to Turn Into You, and it kicked off a chain of events that I still cannot fully believe. No, that's not a joke. I gave Kojima her album, he listened to it, and then he fast-tracked the creation of a song with her to become the title track of Destring 2. Wild. So Caroline and I break down the insanity of that, what it's like working with Hideo, making music as a non-video gamer in a video game, and of course, I got to ask her about her next album. It's a conversation that even if you're not a fan of hers,

yet I think you're going to really enjoy it. Thank you to our sponsor, Shady Race, our Patreon producers, Carl Jacobs, Omega Buster, and Delaney Twining. But without further ado, here's my first ever conversation with the great Caroline Polichick. Enjoy. Caroline Polichick, thank you so much for joining us on the Kind of Funny Gamescast. I'm Roger. Nice to meet you. Roger, it's so nice to meet you too. I know you from Twitter at this point, so it's nice to be face to face. I, that makes me so because I was nervous going into this interview of like, how much do you know? Like, how much about the story do you know? Like, it's hard to tell and hard to grasp. So, thank you so much again for taking the time and make this happen. It's a real question. Oh my gosh. Thank you. Well, I'm excited for you to

tell me the story today, but I'm sort of reverse engineering it because I had a lot of people when I announced that I was doing this song thanking you. And then I've had to sort of work backwards and realize that you at some point are the one that put Kojima onto my music. Yeah, yeah. Okay. Do you just want the story? Like we could just, we can just, we, we'll just, yeah, okay. So it's a weird one. I am not a, uh, a big, big games media person. Like, I'm not like a hot shot or anything like that. But we had the amazing opportunity in August. So the end of August, like August 28th, I believe, or 27th, uh, for myself, my coworker blessing. And my fiance got to tag along, which was super cool, uh, to go to Japan. And while we were there, we had

the amazing opportunity of actually going to Kojima Productions. So that was incredible. So the end there and the reason that that actually happened was Kojima is friends with Greg, the founder of this company, and he was able to get Kojima to record the intro to our studio, the spare bedroom, when we launched it in October. So that was baller and super cool. And we wanted to, when we went to Kojima Productions, we went to Japan, we wanted to give him a gift. So that's kind of where this all came from. So the idea behind the gift is like, okay, what do you get Hideo Kajima? Like the guy that has literally everything, right? So we- I'm the guy who knows everything as well. Literally, right? So our idea was to kind of put him on, right? To find our favorite things, our favorite movies,

our favorite books, what have you. And we each chose all 11 of us at the company chose one piece of media, right? So Blessing chose the Challenger's DVD. So he was very excited. Kajima was very excited about that. I, of course, chose your album, Desire I Want to Turn Into You. And just, like, the backstory behind them, the reason I chose it is a lot of people have been, like, tagging me specifically, but it's mostly, it's me and my fiance, Lianza. Lianza and I, it's our, your albums, Peng and Desire I Want to Turn Into You are, like, the soundtrack to our independence, right?

Like, it is the, those are both the albums that, Pang came out right as we met, and we started falling in love. And then as we were moving out and we went into, we moved to Brooklyn, Bunny's a Rider came out, which was the, like, it was the first song. This is the weirdest thing in the world, but is the first song that our cat heard when we adopted our cat that we put on. Bunny is a rider. And she was lighting up and running around, which, that was a very special moment for us. And then when we actually, we stayed there for a year, because it was a while between Bunny and desire, if I'm not mistaken. It was. It was a year and a half. Exactly, right? Because a year and a after that, we moved to California. And that's where I live right now. That is the dream job that I have

right here where I get to talk about video games all day and moved across the country and then Desire came out and we saw you live at Terminal 5 and we saw you live in San Francisco. So it was, it's an album and your music just means a lot to us. So I absolutely, as soon as I had this opportunity, I was like, yep, get in desire and I know that I know he's going to love it. But like, I would talk to people and I would be like, okay, like pie in the sky, he listens to it. Like, but he, you know, he's Kojima. He's busy. He's doing a billion things. He's probably not going to listen to it, right? So we actually have the video of us, like, giving him the gift. And you've met Kojima, you know him. He's very excited about things. So he, as soon as he heard there was a gift, like, busted open the doors and like opened up the gift. And he was like looking through it all. Right. So that was, that's your album right? So that was your album, right? And he's like, not really like, you know, his eyes aren't peeking at the top. We made sure to put your album at the top because Leanzo was putting it together. And he looks at your album, but he kind of goes through everything. Right? And he's like, not really like, you know, his eyes aren't peeking. at anything other than kind of the, the Challenger's DVD.

But then at the ending, yeah, he gets excited right there. But at the ending of it all, he goes through it all one more time, right? So he's looking through it all, and I kind of knew this was my only chance to, like, get in his ear.

So I look at Aki, someone that works with a translator at that moment, and I was like, hey, Kojima would specifically love this album. Like, Caroline is an amazing artist, and she's incredible. He would love this album. And he looks at it,

as you're seeing right now, He kind of shakes his head and kind of puts it aside, right? Just moves on. And I'm like, okay, that's it. That's the end of it. I shot my shot. We'll see what happens. And then I swear to God, Caroline, the next fucking day.

The next day he posts on his Instagram, a picture of him listening to Sunset. And I'm like, oh, oh, oh, I'm like, I'm still in Japan. I'm with my fiance. We're freaking out. We don't know what to do. And then it just snowballs. Like, it just snowballs in a way where I'm just from the outside looking in. I'm like, I can't believe that, first of all,

like what a death-straining situation, right? Like, you know what I mean? Like, I give this man a thing, and then it creates this whole, like, thing, well, now you're making the fucking, the song on the beach. Like, how incredible is that? So it's just been awesome to watch

from the outside looking in. I kind of want to know, like, what was your, like, how did this all happen for you? Like, you see this. You probably wake up one morning, see this. Like, what is the next steps there? I need to preface by saying, I'm not a gamer.

And I've never, up until this year, I've never actually played. I mean, Mist doesn't count because I was like addicted to Mist as a teenager. It counts. It counts. I mean, it was very aesthetically formative. But, but I love watching like play-throughs of games and also just watching, essentially watching my boyfriend play them because I'm really interested in sort of the conceptual arc of video games. And obviously, Kojima is the guy when it comes to that. He's the guy when it comes to really like sixth wall breaking level of storytelling. So I've been following him on Twitter for years, despite not having ever actually played through. any of his games myself. So it was a huge deal to me when he posted sunset. I was like, how the hell does he know about this, first of all? But also the fact that he liked it, because in my mind, you know, there's the kind of music Kojima would like would be much darker, much more electronic. But as we know, actually, that's not really where his taste lies. But yeah, that blew my mind when he posted sunset. And then from there, as you said, it snowballed. It was like every day.

He was posting all sunset for a while. And then he started listening to other songs and the other album and then I was like I gotta shoot my shot here and DMs didn't get a response back and then my management sort of went to went to the professional I mean fair enough he's got a lot to do he's a busy man but um then my people talk to his people and then suddenly I was on on zoom with him and his whole team very officially oh my gosh this to me so okay so that's the question that I have right there I've seen a lot of the images of him with people on zoom right and sometimes that actually comes becomes something sometimes it's just him hanging out with people right? Like, did he have a pitch for you? Or was it just kind of like, let's get to know each other?

He did. And the pitch was actually a different one. And I, it's not as interesting. I don't, I don't, I can't talk about it. But the pitch evolved into what this became. Was it for death stranding, that original pitch? Yes. Okay. It was. Yeah. And. Yeah, the pitch evolved. There were, couple songs in contention, some of which already existed. And then this is the piece of music that ended up in now being called On the Beach was actually one of the first songs I ever made with producer and composer Daniel Harle. And this is who I make most of my music with at the moment. He's co-written and produced most of my last two albums with me. But we made this piece of music back in

2017, December of 2017, during a snowstorm in Brooklyn, we were snowed in. And we pulled almost an all-nighter working out of his friend's apartment and made this really scary piece of music. And I love it, but it was just too industrial and fraught, I guess, for PANG, which is the album we were making at the time. So I knew I said, let's save this for something really special because I love this music. It's too intense. It's too scary, actually, for the storytelling on this album. And then the opportunity came up to, you know, or had this the scariest thing ever.

to soundtrack and here we are. So did you like send him a few songs or was like, hey, the snowstorm change, this is the song that I've been holding on to, this is the one for you. I said, I said, I have this song. It has no lyrics. It just has a melody and an instrumental arrangement. What do you think? Because in my mind, it makes a lot of sense. And he heard it and immediately was like, let's do it. And he sends me the 60, page synopsis of Death Stranding 2 and asks me to read it and asks me, we would like you to incorporate as many strands of this as you can, but in a way that people won't be able to read

immediately, but people who have played the game will understand. And I said, Sensei, you've come to the right person. And he has a co-writing credit on that song because of all his. ideas that have now ended up woven through the lyrics. And we even had a really cool back and forth where I was sending him demo sketches of the recording. And he's such a busy guy. I would kind of assume that it would take a few days to get a response from him. He would always listen and respond like in seconds.

So he's ahead. He loves it. Yeah. He always seems like such a fan of yours, right? Like the when he's the images of him dressed up. been your hoodie, right? Like he is, he's so locked in. He loves this and I can tell he's, he's a fan. So I'm sure if Caroline is sending you demos, you're, that's the first, you're pushing away all the other work. You're listening to those demos immediately.

I mean, I couldn't believe it. It felt and still feels crazy to be in touch with him directly, but it's a hugest, hugeest honor. So you talked about the little bit of the research that he gave you, he gave you the synopsis of the game. Did you go backwards at all? Did you watch a playthrough? Yeah. Oh, you absolutely do. I mean, it's all connected. It's strand stuff. I did.

Yeah, I watched many playthrus. And thankfully, the internet is no short on men breaking down the lore into, you know, Wikipedia-style explanations of it. So that was really useful as well. But I'm also just such a sucker for symbols and symbolism and all the layers of anthropology they can hold. So I've really leaned into that. You know, Kojimo is explaining to me that. One of the sort of main conceptual underpinnings of death stranding comes from the Japanese version of the river Sticks. So we have the idea of the river sticks, which is the river that separates the living and the dead.

And that's, I believe, Greek, either Greek or Roman mythology. No, it'll be Greek. And the Japanese have their own version of that tale, where when you die, you know, instead of seeing a white light or going to the river Stix, you go to something called the river Sanzu. And at the river, there might be someone that you know, like a family member or a loved one, who's there to push you back from the river and not let you cross. Or there might not be. And then you cross until the realm of the dead. And Kojima was explaining to me that this was a big point of inspiration for the early stages of the concept of death stranding.

And I was so moved by that that a game, this contemporary, this futuristic even, has its roots in something so ancient. So I was really keen to bring some of that into the song. Wow, that's incredible. Do you think for the second one you're going to pick up the sticks a little bit, at least to understand or feel the moment that your song is in? Oh, what do you mean the second one? Sorry, in Death Stranding 2, do you think you're going to pick up the controller and actually play the part where?

Oh, yeah. Oh, you are? Oh, my gosh. Oh, yeah. And to be fair, I did play Death Stranding one. I just haven't gotten all the way through it. It's not an easy game to be the first time you ever use a controller. No, no.

As somebody who just played it a few weeks ago, that, yeah, no, absolutely not. That is not an easy one to just pick up and go from. Kojima, when he was talking about your song on the beach, he said that you work really fast. Is that something that you've always been? Like, are you always working fast or when it's working with Kojima, you work extra fast? Like, what does that process look like? Well, I'm actually a very slow writer. but he really handed me the content on a plate.

And so when I have a starting point like that, it gets my wheels turning really fast. But also, to be fair, so much of the composition of it, like the music and the arrangement, had actually been worked out by me and Danielle Harle years prior. So it was a really interesting, it almost felt more like doing a crossword puzzle

where I was like, okay, I have the meaning from Kojima, the definition of what I need to do from Kojima and then I have the structure that Danny and I have made already. And it was a matter of finding the right words that landed the two. Oh, wow. That's so interesting. What is the difference between making music for a client and making music for yourself, right? Because you have been, pop, you were in the TV gloves, that incredible movie, and your music was there. And I just, I'm interested to see that creative process behind the scenes. Is it very different, or is it very different? similar. I know this is a very specific scenario, right? You already had a song that was pretty much there and you added on to it. But in general, does it feel different when you're working with somebody else for their project?

It does. Yeah. And honestly, I love it. I think it's because my own ego is so much less invested in it when it's, when I'm sort of taking direction or when there's a prompt. I think there's so much pressure to express yourself when you're making your own music. And I actually sometimes find that really limiting because it gets your sort of identity and the anthropology of your own life. and all that stuff involved. And when I get the opportunity to step outside that and have all that anthropology and meaning we actually made by someone else. And I just get to, I just get to imagine it. You know, I get to inhabit it. I find it really freeing.

And often I can work much faster, actually. Oh, wow. Is that where this collaboration era is what I would call it right now that you're in is starting from? Of course, you collabed with the Caroline band. These new Puridans, which just came out, their album, Charlie, and then, of course, DS2 is coming out in a few weeks. Is that kind of what the vibes are in 2025 is kind of getting outside of yourself and

focusing on these projects where you don't have to worry so much? Or is that just a happenstance? Like, oh my gosh, like all these things lined up perfectly and now this is what this year's looking like. You know, it's funny is I, but I think because I was on the sort of touring cycle for desire I want to turn into, really, until the spring of last year. I was so excited to be not only back in the studio, but able to just sort of play around. And so as soon as I got off the road for that, I just started saying yes to stuff. And none of these were actually my ideas. There was all just amazing things I got presented with.

And I just felt like a kid in a candy shop and said, yes, yes, yes, yes. And then weirdly, they all sort of came out much, much later in really tight succession. So this era wasn't actually planned, but it's quite fun to have it all just be like a, Yeah, a sort of pinata of different things that I've made over the last year all coming out at the same time. Yeah, you never know where Caroline's going to be. You're all over the place, and it's all incredible and it's exciting. And you're putting me on to a lot of different types of music, which I appreciate. I want to ask about your label name, Perpetual novice, of course, a referencing door, a door lyric.

I love that. I take that as a very positive thing, right? Being a perpetual novice, you know, always trying to find the ways to be a student. always trying to learn. What about working with Kojima, working in games, has brought up that feeling of being a perpetual novice. That's such a cool connection.

So have you seen that scene in the Death Stranding trailer when all the sort of shrouded bodies approach the play gate? Yeah. I feel like that when I'm entering the video game space where I feel like I know

absolutely nothing. And I feel completely awestruck by the magnitude and the scope of the kind of thinking and technology that's required to make these, make these worlds live. And I think actually that feeling itself is like something worth capturing and bringing back into it. So that's it. I think feeling, feeling small and like one piece of a team and like you have so much to learn is a really good, a good place to operate from.

And the cool, not that I have a choice. Yeah, for sure. And the cool thing about like the world that you're ending, entering now, like video games. It is such a unique space with players that are so varied, right? Like, you're going to, of course, have people that know you and know your music that are excited to see Caroline pop up in the corner as their music plays. But also, you're going to have people that just listen to video game music, right? Like, I have a lot of friends that literally all of the music that they listen to outside of video games are related to the video games they play, right? So you're going to have an influx of new fans, new people that are interested in your

work. One, have you thought about that scale of like how big this game is and the world that you're going to be introduced to? I mean, it's massive. And then two, another side question, but connected to this, do you have an album, a song, a music video that you would recommend to them of like, hey, this is, this is me encapsulated. I know that that's a big thing to ask, but do you have one or two things? I love all this. First of all, what's up, guys? If any of you are new to me, I'm Caroline Paulicheck. I love meeting you here for the first time. Ooh, the recommendation thing is so tough. I'm going to jump back to that in a second.

But yeah, it's been really, really cool preparing this song to come out, knowing that it's going to be people who have no idea about anything I've made before. And it's really exciting because this song really feels like its own world. And maybe that means that these new listeners will like. my music, the rest of my music, and maybe it means they won't. And both of those things are okay to me, actually. But so when you ask for a recommendation for people, do you mean of my own music? Yeah. Of your own music. Yeah. Oof. Is that a harder question than all music? No, I think I think start with Pange, which is the album I released in 2019 when I first went

solo. I was in a band called Cherleft for a really long time, an indie band out of Brooklyn. and then we broke up, just as the sort of Brooklyn indie scene broke up, and I went solo and joined forces with a scene of musicians from London called PC Music. And it changed my life. I've made much more digital music since then, more conceptual music since then. And shout out piece of music, shout out Brooklyn, and shout out Pang. That's where I would start. P-A-N-G.

I love that. I love that. I am interested to see, like, are you excited to perform this song live? You know, I don't want to, not try to spoil anything, but I mean, you know, game awards is right around the corner, you know what I mean? Like, it's going to be exciting. So, like, are you excited to actually get out there and perform this live? I am.

I'm going to perform it in June. I don't know if I can announce yet when it is, but Kojima will be in the room, and that is terrifying to me. Oh, really? Yes. I'm so scared. Also, I think this will be, this is the hardest song to sing. of any song I've ever written.

Like, not like, welcome to my island? Like, that's... No. No, it's harder. Okay, okay. Well, I haven't heard it yet. We should establish that. So I don't even know what world this is, but I'm...

Also, the biggest challenge to all this is that Charlie XX is playing Glass & Bray a couple days prior, and I have to be there. She's playing... 1975 is playing A. Agie Cook is playing... Oh, my gosh. So the huge secret challenge here is like, how do I go to Glastonbury, not lose my voice, and then come back and sing this song in front of Kudgeon.

like a day later. So wish me luck. You actually brought up something I was going to ask. I actually removed it from here, but you brought it up. I'm, I'm such a newbie to anything, music or vocals or how to preserve it. When I saw you perform, welcome to my island, my first thought, I'm such a nerd. I looked at Leanne's and my fiance and I said, how the fuck does she not lose her voice every single night? Like, what is that? Like, do you have an extreme ritual for that? Or is it like, what does that look like for you? You know what's really counterintuitive about maybe it's maybe it's my voice maybe it's everyone's voices but actually the high stuff isn't what kills my voice it's talking so I could sing for three hours but if I go out to a club or if I go out

and party my voice is shocked so I think something about singing is like very you know very pure supported resonances if you will but then when you're talking it's just like scratchy and loud and you're shouting over music without realizing anyway yeah partying that's what that's what does me in so I'm glad that you're going to a Charlie XX concert right before That's what I'm saying. I know I'm going to have to wear like a some kind of like death stranding two cosplay outfit there so no one talks to me. This episode's brought to you by Shady Rays.

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Was that like the finalized version of it? Was like, hey, I'm in town. like let's hang out. Because I was very surprised that you haven't, at least we haven't seen the images from. Like, have you been to the actual studio yet? No.

No, I've been invited, but it hasn't been the right time for me to go to Tokyo yet. But that meeting was essentially like a debriefing of him sitting me down and showing me unreleased death-sturning footage. Us talking, that's when it was over that lunch that he explained to me, the sort of River Sunzu metaphor and how that bled into death.

stranding and we were talking about whales, which is why I bought my whale shirt today. Hey. And then, um, it was really me just asking him questions about the game and what, and about the scene where the song would live in the game. And, um, and he was asking me about how I work. And I think at that stage, it was like mid-November. And I was like, so, what's the timeline on this? And he was like, well, end of the year. So I was like, all right, we got five weeks. Yeah. to write, record, mix, and master.

But we got it sent over, and it was shockingly fluid. Yeah, that was the wildest thing, is when I gave him that album, actually in the little note, we each wrote little notes explaining our gift to him. I wrote not even expecting Death Stranding. I was saying, oh, she would make an incredible theme song for O.D., his next game.

So, like, the fact that y'all made this happen so fast, because when we were there, he was like, Oki was there, and he was like, oh, he's just trying to finish the game. Like, he's working really hard. He's just trying to finish the game. this game. So I thought that there was no chance in hell that this was happening. So it's, it's really a miracle that y'all works so fast. I think between us, between everyone here,

I think that the Death Stranding music was already locked when I joined, when I joined on. And I think he got inspired when I sent him the sort of demo version of that song and said, you know what, we can always squeeze someone into the party through the back door. Oh my gosh. Wow. It's crazy how the world works. That's incredible. It is. It's so wild. One thing after just finishing Death Stranding for the first time that I have really, like, thought about when it comes to your music and your work is his playfulness and his comedy. And that's something that you always go into, especially with, I think about the Welcome to My Island music video, one of my favorite music videos of all time. But you are very playful and you deal with

camp and comedy and you have that balance, right, where sometimes you're talking about something very serious and then sometimes it is so absurd and out there. Can you talk about that of your your playfulness and your additive elements of comedy to your work, and specifically your visual style and your music videos. Totally. Thank you for asking that. Welcome to my island for anyone that hasn't heard it before is a ridiculous and kind of very sort of self-hating piece of music.

It's a rock song that opens with me wailing pretty much acapella really high, like a sort of banshee, like Tarzan call. depends into this sort of like Michael Jackson style 80s quite slammed beat that I'm speaking over. Welcome to my island. See the palm trees waving the wind. Hope you like me. You ain't leaving. It's sort of about like huge ego and sort of narcissism and also, you know, self-hatred all sort of being bound up. And one thing under the idea of welcome to my island, this is what it's like to be me. I think the only way to tackle all those three things at the same time is by making it kind of funny and stupid.

And I sort of imagined the whole thing sort of like a walk of shame. Like what's the version of me doing the walk of shame from a party and singing this kind of song? And from that came the idea of this, yeah, the music video. And like you said, humor is sort of woven throughout. And I guess I don't know how else to describe it. I just think humor is a great way of dealing with chaos and deal. dealing with things that don't match. And both of those are things that Kojima is always, you know, approaching as well kind

of conceptually is like in a world where things are chaotic and disjointed and disaligned. Like, can we lean all the way in and make it, you know, not just make the chaos scary, actually do the, you know, go the other way as well. Yeah. And that's so interesting, yeah, because you mentioned like the wildness of everything and kind of leaning into humor because everything is so crazy. and that's something that I've heard you say about desire, right? Like that it is kind of, it's not the storybook like Pang is, right?

It is a lot of mismatched things and it's a scrapbook, it's a collage. So that makes a lot of sense that you would lean into that comedy aspect of it. Totally. Is that something that you always are thinking about? Are you like, so, okay, I just have a larger question. I'm so fascinated with your visual side of things, right? Like, I'm a designer. I went to school for design and Pang came out right as I was finishing up my associate's degree.

And it was, it was like a fucking revelation. Like, like the, the things you guys were doing with, uh, with, the arts, with the music videos, with a specific, with, like, your custom-made typefaces. Like, I have right here your, uh, desire calendar, which we open up and we make sure to flip every single month. And there's so much amazing imagery. And I'm at the point now, which you can crack me from, tell me what you think about your, your artistic journey.

But I see you almost equally as a musical artist and a visual artist. Like, it is, it is woven so deeply into. the DNA of what Caroline Polichick music is. And I'm so interested to see because you are an independent artist. You are somebody that, you know, it all comes, it's not cheap to make these videos. It's not cheap to make any of this stuff. It matters to your artistic vision. And why is that? Like, where did that come from? And why is it so important to have all of these supplemental, imagery and music videos to match with the art now? I, well, first of all, thank you. That all means so much to me.

I grew up watching MTV. I'm a 90s kid. And watching, you know, videos by like Buster Rhymes and Missy Elliott and Bjork and even like Marilyn Manson. I was just so awestruck by these worlds. And the fact is when you get presented with visuals like that, it makes you hear the music totally differently. And imagine not only the music differently, but yourself differently when you hear it. And to me, that whole process is alchemical. It's magical.

And it is actually the one of the. of the building blocks of culture, you know, not just pop culture, but culture. You know, people become like tribal and arrange themselves around these tribes that include what you're listening to, how you're dressing, what your politics are, how you like to communicate. And that, to me, not just as a teenager, but through my whole life has been so important to me. It's so, like, seductive and so interesting and rich, you know, how pop culture is a way for people to meet each other and find each other and have really profound things in common. So for me, the visuals are like a shorthand of expressing all these things.

And it changes not just how I want other people to hear the music, but it changes how I imagine it even as I'm making it. And Pang, for example, I developed a uniform that I was wearing to the studio every day, which was just all green and black plaid. There's bits I found on eBay all in the same pattern and I would wear it every day. And it put me in the headspace of who I wanted to be in the music and the sort of omnivorousness of like, yeah, I can wear this to the club, but I can also wear this to the library.

And I can be this character that embodies these opposites through this way of dressing. And the music can actually do this as well. So I like these bridges. I mean, again, bring things back to DesRending too, but I like finding bridges both in sort of audio and visual worlds that can become sort of cultural bridges between people's internal and exterior reality. So I find that stuff like really profound and really. fun. I love making music videos, maybe even as much as I like singing. And that goes to my next question,

right? Like, you have co-directed a multitude of your videos. Is music kind of the way that you're going to go in terms of like you are a musical artist and a visual and, of course, directing videos? But like, are you also going to potentially direct a movie? Like, where does your creative endeavor stop? Like, where do they start? Is everything on the table? I would love to hear your opinion on that. Everything is on the table. At the moment, um, there is, um, there is, is a film project that I'm, I'm beginning to sort of develop, at least just in here. I like that. But I can't talk about it just yet, but it's, it feels inevitable.

If, I mean, going back to the sort of perpetual novice thing, I have no experience directing a feature film size group people. Music videos are great because it's going to be like a two-day shoot, pretty contained. But it does feel tempting. There's so much I want to do. I mean, making music for a video game has been on my bucket list. like since day one. So, you know, we're slowly chipping away at it. Yeah. I actually want to bring up talking about that. I saw this Instagram comment that someone screenshoted from years ago. I think when you're doing a paying AMA where you talked about specifically how they asked, would you

work in video games? And you mentioned Kojima years ago. You mentioned Kojima. And I think you mentioned Oberdin was another game that peaked your interest. So that's crazy how, yeah, you've been thinking about this for so long. And yeah, an absolute dream to compose themes for Hideo Kojima. Wow. You know what's funny is I can't even remember. Look at that. Yeah. Wild. I can't even remember writing those comments. I mean, obviously, I stand behind them 100%. But when I saw them recirculating last week, I was like, oh, my God. Yeah. What are the chances? Why? Where are you manifesting? Yeah, absolutely. That's what the vibes are for 2025. I am interested specifically when it comes to your visual component again, going back to that. I'm such a video guy. I'm a video editor designer. I love this stuff so much. I want to know the order of operations here, right? Are you making Bunny as a Rider and you're thinking about the boxes? Are you, like, is it all together?

Is it afterwards? Like, what is that process of coming together and making the visuals for the song? I know it's a little different for each song, but generally speaking. Well, Bunny's a Riders are really funny example to start with music videos because it was the first video I could make as soon as the pandemic allowed for shooting again. no sympathy. And I had so many things stored up that I wanted to do and forced them all into one video. And I'm not sure they all should have gone together. But we made them fit. But at the time, partially because of the pandemic, I was living out of a storage facility. All my stuff was in storage. And I was repacking my suitcase and going and staying in London, repacking my suitcase going and staying in L.A., but all my things were in a storage facility.

And whenever I'd go into the storage facility, I would think like, also I had a, I'm really like organized. I had a system for organized my boxes where I had a Google spreadsheet, which had the contents of each box labeled and the giant number written on each box. So when you'd walk into my storage space, it looked like a sort of piece of contemporary art. It was just like these boxes with numbers written all over them, like hands scrawled really messly, like a thick red sharpie. And every time I would go in there, I just think this place looks so awesome. Even as much as it was like my own personal hell. But then I also liked it as a sort of metaphor where all your memories and baggage are stored. And then at the same time, I was spending time in Spain where there's all this, you know, great historical tradition around not just bull fighting, but sort of just the idea of the duende, which is like the spirit that comes up from below and sort of possesses you with energy.

And I was thinking about how all these things like the color red and the flag of the bull and the color red are all kind of synced up with that idea of like vitality. and coming out of the pandemic, that felt like what we all needed. We all needed like really bodied physical energy. And then the third big piece of the puzzle here was sort of connecting the two. And the myth of Theseus and the Minotaur, which is a Greek myth about this maze underground. And Theseus goes in and slays this bull man who's been taking all the maidens hostage. And I realized, I was like, what if the maze of boxes is the maze? And I'm Theseus and I go down to slay the Minotaur, but it actually turns into a sort of bullfight.

And like I said, there's too many ideas here. And it was post-pandemic. And I was so excited to shoot. But more than anything, I was excited to take this and make it physical because we'd all become so virtual during the pandemic. And that was actually a big part of the aesthetics of my first album. Pang was taking these mythological storybook, you know, almost Hans Christian Anderson-esque feelings and compressing them into a really tight digital system of images. and ephemera, but then I want to do the opposite on desire. I said, let's break the system, let's break the symmetry, let's make everything really physical

and messy. And that's what bunny as a writer was. It was mashing all these ideas together and doing it physically. We built the box in it. We built the box maze, which was insanely expensive. Thank you, Facebook, for paying for that. Oh. And the choreography was insane because I had to rehearse without the boxes.

We had to tape off the floor of this dance studio and I had to learn to navigate it backwards. Anyway, I could go on and on forever about that video. But this is just a little glimpse into how these separate ideas meet each other and these little strange bridges. And then the song kind of is all part of it. Yeah. So you're always thinking about it like at the same time. Is that kind of the vibe? Or is like in terms of like music videos and the music that you're making?

Or is it you have to finish the song and then you're onto the visuals? I like to do it in two phases. Mostly just because I don't think it's very interesting to make very literal videos, because the listener already does that in their mind. Or not. Maybe they're quite imaginative and goes off somewhere else. But no, I like to allow myself the freedom of like, how do I connect this song to the rest of the record using visuals?

So the rest of the record has to be done. Oh, my gosh. This is perfect because this is my next question here. Is almost your music video comments now almost look like Marvel comments of like theories of people connecting the dots and making everything so connected. because it is connected, right? Like I see you, I believe in Bunny's a Rider, you have like the ring of the key from door,

or at least that's my connection to it. So you have very much melded this both of your projects together into this one big world. I want to talk about that. Like, what is that? Why is it so important to connect both of these things? Because I think some artists tend to do the opposite, right? Where it's like, this is one era, this is another era.

Clean break and we're not going to look backwards. Like, why is it so important to look backwards? because I think it's fascinating. I think it's great to do that. Like Charlie does that a lot, where she looks back in her music even of like, hey, this is all the music from here and they're all connected.

I'm the same person. So why is it so important to connect both of these projects? Well, you know, in that same way that I was saying earlier, how music sounds different because of the way you visually present it. I think music sounds different

because of the things people have heard before. It is a story that things that are different have meaning because there was something before or things that are the same have meaning because they're the same. as something else. So, um, I think it would be like a little reductive to pretend that we're ever in a vacuum. I think it's more fun to acknowledge that we're all on a trip together. And that maybe some people are discovering the catalog on a reverse order. So, so fuck it.

Let's put it all, let's put it all in a, put it all in storage. Yeah. Hey, I like that. That's great. Um, going back to video games really quick. Uh, what is the future for you in video games? Like, does this, does this get you excited to be like, hey, maybe, maybe, maybe, making the Caroline Polichick video game. Like, like, where is the level here? And also, just another side note, like, if Kojima ever wants to scan you and put you in the game, like, are you down for that?

Like, would you? I, you know, when it comes to video game music, I realize that I'm sort of standing at the precipice of a giant cliff, which is AI, where, you know, what does video game music want? It wants infinitely generative audio. And we're getting to processor speeds now where that's, it's going to be possible in five minutes.

So I guess composition for video game scores to me is like really a giant question marks. I'm like, okay, will the, will video game score composition so that nothing ever has to loop? Obviously, you can get infinitely generated new audio. Let's say you want to linger in one room or one, one world. I see you're saying. So I think, I think that role is going to massively change. You know, even when I was working with Kojima on the scene where my song goes, we had to think

about that because if players are moving really fast through my scene, they're not going to hear the whole song. And that's just how it has to be programmed. But I think we're right on the edge of these things being a lot more elastic and generative. And so I kind of just want to sit back and watch where things go. But obviously, I do think it would be really interesting to get my voice or singing involved with that kind of generative AI and these spaces. And maybe where I could be somewhat in control of the harmony or the dynamics of it, but where I could sort of be singing to someone infinitely in a space, but also be quite in charge of the atmosphere and the melodies.

It would be really cool. Interesting. Well, that seems like there's a lot there in terms of, are you looking forward to like, do you, are you, how about this? Kojima calls you up, Odi, you're there, right? You're there for the next one. You're, this is, yeah. I'm excited because I feel like this potentially could be something that we keep on going back to.

You and Kojima seem like a perfect match together, and he's very excited to continuously rep your merch as well. There's a few places I want to go. I just want to ask a general question really quick. This is just something I'm interested with you and the place you are in your career. And that is social media, right? Like what is your relationship with social media? Because I see so many artists that are up and coming, you kind of have to use it, right? You have to use it to get your music out there. You have to be making the TikToks.

You have to be kind of out there because that's the only way that people are able to discover you. What's your relationship with it right now as it stands? You know, my relationship with social media is really like malleable. I feel like one day I might have a really serious and explanatory approach. And then the next day, I just want to sort of be a little bit more of a troll or I just go off. I've just been going offline for weeks at a time. And I used to worry about that a lot, but one of the nice things about being between records is you don't, I don't feel I need to be so present. But I also don't want to disappear either.

I think social media is like it really gets into the wiring of our brains and how we communicate. And it's also, I find it really interesting. Like, I think I'm as addicted to it as the next person, but I genuinely feel very, like, intellectually stimulated by it as well. Um, especially watching like how different trends emerge of like non-communication of like, you know, like captions became really uncool or like carousels became really uncool. And I think there's something to that of like, oh, suddenly saying less is more expressive than like saying everything or, um, I don't know, there's just so many layers of like, you know, anthropology and like cultural signaling.

And I'm just really into like watching it from a distance. but I think in terms of my own posting I love photos I really hope that photos stick around on social media that we don't go like all video but yeah I just don't feel committed to needing to to stick to one format

I think it's cool to just code switch and be all over the place yeah for sure you mentioned it there a little bit right now you're in between projects I'm not trying to get you to say anything about a next project but also like just the question like what are the vibes like what is the vibes for next year

like, are you're always working on things. So, I mean, you have to be working on something else. Write another album. Yeah. I'm not going to use words to describe it, but I'll give you like a hand gesture. Okay. Yeah, it's a visual podcast. We can make that happen.

Okay. So I think what I'm going for is like this. I think that gives me a lot. That gives me a lot personally. So I think I can work with that. That's great. Great. Caroline, thank you so much.

I have one last question, but I guess it's more of like, I need you to explain something to me, like, for real. because I've been, out of all your music videos, I've watched them hundreds of times, yada, yada, yada. There's one video of yours that isn't a music video that I have seen many, many times that I have refused to look for any context, but I need you to explain it to me,

and we're going to edit it in right now. Okay, for real listeners, this video is loud. So lower your headphones, skip ahead a minute, or just chill with it because it's definitely worth it. And that video is you screaming at the geese. I need, Caroline, I need, I need to understand this because I have so many questions about it. And I just, just tell me, please. I know the context exists, but I need to hear it from you.

Okay. So the context is, we're in the deep, dark butt crack of the pandemic. Yes. A.G. Cook, provocative extraordinaire, decides to create a live concert series that actually is streamed live of artists and friends and collaborators all over the world, each doing performances under the header of a different category. So it's almost like there's different stages on the festival and they each have different themes. And mine, he put me on the category called Extreme Vocals.

Perfect for you. Yes, but also like if I just sit there and I'm like, ha, you know, like, that's what everyone expects me to do? And so I really mold over this for weeks, just being like, what I'm not going to do at extreme vocals? Like, if I make a song, that's too obvious. like plus I'm in the middle of making an album. I got songs. And then I thought like, what if I, you know, I, anyone who knows me knows this and maybe you're annoyed by it, maybe you love it. I hum compulsively all the time without realizing it. And you have to

have sympathy because it's like, imagine an electric guitarist who just has an electric guitar like surgically connected their body. They'd always be playing it just without realizing. So that's me. But, um, but I thought, what if I just put my wired headphones on and just walk around London as I would and just hum and let people hear it. You were actually doing this? Like, this was you at, like, I thought this was, like, a, uh, uh, a lip sync thing. You were actually screaming? Oh, yeah.

Okay, so then I have more questions. Why was nobody looking at you? Like, I, I lived in Brooklyn. I lived in, in New York. When people scream, you look for a second. I've looked in the background. I'm like, no one's looking. No one's looking at you.

I wish I had an answer for you, but honestly, all I was thinking about was the geese. I wasn't paying attention to the people. Sorry. Yeah. So I think it was like maybe 20 minutes long, the walk I took. And then I brought it home and I ran certain parts of it through vocoder just to kind of give it some more sass. But the whole thing was recorded in one go walking around West London. And I had intended just to kind of hum as I would in a sort of under my breath, unconscious way.

And then when I got to the geese, I started honking with them. And then it just, you know, I just, the spirit entered the chat. I love that. And you leaned into it in the dang performance for Stephen Colbert. And I adore that performance. I adore the visual there. I laugh every time where it's like color of the year and it's like Slate or whatever. Like it just, I cry laughing.

Was I wrong? You're so right. You're so right. You're a trendsetter there. And I said that was the last question. I have one more question. Just a general question for you, if that's okay with you. Of course.

What is your current obsessions? Like, what are you feeling? right now. It could be music. It could be movies. It could just be, you know, a feeling. Something going on. I love this question. I hate that the first thing that arrived in my mind is potato salad. Oh, interesting. Okay. How do you like your potato salad then? Thank you for asking. I want a huge potato salad kick right now or essentially it's like the potatoes are just a vessel for everything else. It's really all about the dill, the pickles, the eggs, radishes. It's like a meal. What else am I obsessed with at the moment? I love the new record. I love the new

from this band Smers. Check it out. S-M-E-R-Z. It's so good. I don't know if Kajima would like it. You're going to put him on now. Now the Smurs are going to be doing

the title track for the next album. That's how this works. Honestly. And let me come up with a third thing for you. I am currently obsessed with... Okay, I know I'm a late. know I'm a late adopter here, and this is like the coldest take ever,

or maybe the hottest take ever because I'm so late. I just saw Amelia Perez on the plane. And I know it was that film was so, like, widely hated. So I kind of delayed watching it. My mind was blown. Oh. How good it is. Okay.

I haven't watched it yet. All politics aside, I thought it was like, especially the way music was used and the way the songs were approached was so wildly forward thinking. so I, I, controversially, I ride for Amelia Perez. Oh, wow. Holy shit. Well, ending right there, ending the podcast on a controversial cold take. Caroline, Pollycheck, thank you so much for spending the time with me.

And I'm so excited to hear the song. It should be out by the time listeners are listening to this right now. And Death Journey 2 comes out June 26th this year. Caroline, anything else you want to say to the audience, the gaming audience over here before we end this interview? no i just want to say i hope everyone's having the time of their lives digging into the world of death training too and i will see you guys there hell yeah all right see you guys later have a going and right as i said that she left the call based on instinct she came right back and we got to say

goodbye properly but that was it everybody uh that was the interview i still haven't listened to the song properly yet so i'll be doing that on our big marathon stream on june 27 where me and Mike walk across the world playing Death Straining 2. So I'm very excited to do that with you guys on stream. And if you haven't already, listen to Caroline's albums. They're really incredible. Of course, she's suggested paying to you, but Desire I want to turn into you.

Her latest album is my personal favorite. And I want to say thank you to the audience of best friends for rocking with me on this one. It's not every day that things like this happen, things that I will literally tell my children and grandchildren about, but this is definitely one of them. I appreciate you all for allowing me to live such a beautiful life. I hope you're doing well out there.

And I'll see you soon. And I'll see you on June 27th as me and Mike play death training two all weekend long. Again, thank you to Caroline Pollack for doing this interview. And thank you to everybody out there for listening. Make sure to share it everywhere and let everyone know they're listening to this episode. Thank you again. And I'll see you on the next time. Peace.