Kinda Funny Gamescast: Video Game Podcast - Marvel's Spider-Man 2 Spoilercast w/ Bryan Intihar - Kinda Funny Gamescast

Episode Date: October 27, 2023

This episode is sponsored by BetterHelp — go to http://betterhelp.com/kindafunny to get 10% off your first month. Tim, Bless, and Greg are joined by Spider-Man 2 Creative Director, Bryan Intihar, to discuss all of the game's biggest spoilers! Time Stamps: 00:00:00 - Start 00:03:30 - Venom’s Identity 00:07:27 - Going Too Far vs Not Going Far Enough/Biggest Surprises 00:14:59 - Pete vs Miles 00:17:00 - Do fans desire characters to die? 00:21:40 - Big Set Piece Moments vs. the Small Moments 00:25:40 - Picking a Villain 00:31:00 - Casting Kraven 00:35:19 - Small Emotional Moments that Broke Greg 00:40:30 - Building a Story with Two Spider-Men 00:43:30 - Hailey and Overall Representation 00:48:42 - Side-Quest Stories 00:53:30 - More "Smaller" Games like Miles Morales? 00:56:35 - Thinking of the Future of Spider-Man 01:01:55 - Let’s Talk About These Spider-Bots 01:06:40 - The Black Cat Chase 01:08:45 - Easter Eggs, Avengers, and Wolverine 01:11:45 - What’s Next for Insomniac? 01:13:50 - Rehabilitation & Building Up the World 01:19:55 - MJ Missions 01:23:23 - Mysterio 01:25:35 - Boss Fights 01:27:55 - Showing Spider-Man 2 for Previews 01:30:55 - Shirtless Spider-Man Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

What's up and welcome back to the Kinda Funny Games cast. Of course I am Tim Geddes. I'm joined by the new face of video games blessing at Eioje Jr. Good day to you, Tim. The Big Daddy himself, Greg Miller. And making his return for the very first time to this studio, it is Insomniac Senior Creative Director Brian Intahar. Thanks, guys.

I am pumped. I am psyched. I've been waiting for five years to come back. So I'm ready to do this. Let's go. I am so excited to have you here. I'm so excited that not only did we have you for the spoiler cast for Spider-Man 1, that everyone should go check out.

I feel like it's one of the most important pieces of content that Kind of Funny has ever made in terms of like the audience out there. Like it is one that many meet and greets we've been to. People have been like, I go back and listen to that. Like that's our entry point into even learning about kind of funny and stuff. So you're part of like the kind of funny lore, Brian. Well, that spoiler cast is really the first time we kind of talk. about Spider-Man 2.

Like, you know, we talked about the black suit. Oh, yeah. And I said, I think something like that needs its own game. So that was actually really the start. And today would be the first time. We're telling us Spider-Man 3, everybody. But we get there later. Of course, we've got to get into all of it.

This is the Kind of Funny Games cast. Each and every week, we get together to talk about video games and all the things that we love about them. You can get it on YouTube.com slash kind of funny games or roosterteeth.com. You could also get it as a podcast by searching your favorite podcast service for kind of, Funny Gamescast and we'll be right there for you. If you wanted to go above and beyond,

you can go to patreon.com slash kind of funny where you can get the show ad free. You get a whole bunch of bonus content and more. You can be a Patreon producer like Jedi Master Deadpool and Delaney Twining. Thank you so much for your support. Today we're brought to you by Better Help, but I'll tell you about

that later. A little bit of housekeeping, it's Spider-Man time, everybody. There's going to be a whole bunch of Spider-Man content that you can check out and Mario Wonder content that you can check out. We have reviews for both of those games. We're doing big long streams for both of those games. You can watch them live on Twitch or YouTube.com slash kind of

funny games as a VOD. And we also have our first hour of Spider-Man 2 up. It is a really, really, really kick-ass edit that Roger did. Me, Greg, Andy, and Janet's first authentic hour experience with the game each individually edited into one video.

You should definitely check that out after you guys all enjoy your first hour with Spider-Man 2. We're a weird little time loop here. I was going to go. This is going up in a week. No, all that's there. And especially for us, you're probably listening to this. We are well aware how many people listen to kind of funny rather than to watch kind of funny. The hour long video is just a video. We'd love it if you went to YouTube.com slash kind of funny games and watch that. Of course, we've gone above

and beyond beyond for TikToks this time around, right? Talking about, of course, shirtless Spider-Man, shirtless Miles Morales being in there, talking about, you know, all the different suits. There's a bunch of content that is video only that you might not see. And we love making that. We'd love you to support it. Absolutely. Okay, enough of that stuff. Let's talk about full spoilers for Spider-Man 2. Brian, is this the first time, your first spoiler cast for Spider-Man 2?

Yeah, this is the first one. I woke up, I took a good night's sleep for the first time in like forever, so I'm ready to go. Let's talk about actual spoilers. Let's start here. What do you want to talk about? This being your first time you're able to talk about this game. What's the thing that's been hardest to not talk about?

Oh, that's a great question. I mean, well, I was, Greg made sure to tell me that I couldn't, throughout the whole campaign, we had to keep as many things secret as possible because I wanted him to be surprised, right? Well, I mean, obviously, probably the biggest thing is who is Venom. That's the biggest one, right? And, I mean, I thought it was going to be pretty obvious that based on the teaser of the first game, like, who would eventually be. But I guess we kept people guessing, so it was good. So I mean, I think the fact that you brought up the question made us question.

Yeah. Right? To have Venom say, let's heal the world or heal the world. You know what I mean? I was like, oh, it's going to be everything. But then you were like, oh, somebody's never. Bennett and this, that and the other go, oh, okay. But that's like, I mean, I know there's a lot of Eddie Brock fans and people like, the story trailer, people like capturing things like from a fallen

ceiling that had something that they thought referenced Eddie Brock. And I was like, that's not even close. It's not even, not even close. So, no, but I think, you know, for us, it was really about how can we, I mean, Venom is such a popular character, right? And there's so many characteristics of the design, his abilities and his personality that people love. And like, So how can we give people what they, what they hope and want from the character? But at the same time, how can we tell our own story? And we felt pretty strongly that making the host of, that bonds with the symbiote, someone closer to Peter and have more of an emotional thing would lead to a more unique,

a unique story for us to tell. So we weren't just kind of telling the same story that you've seen in the comics. How difficult is it to navigate that? Like, do you listen to speculation? Because for us, on PS, I Love You, they've been plenty of times where we have talked about, out like, is it Harry? Is it not Harry?

I've even brought up like the idea of like, oh yeah, I think you might play as Venom. And even when I got there, even though I- Oh, that's the biggest spoilers. The biggest thing is like playing as Venom, which, yeah. But I got there and I was like, let's fucking go. Like I expected it, but I didn't really expect it. Yeah. Well, I can tell you, I mean, I do either listen or someone will send me or someone will,

especially like you guys. James. Someone will send me a clip. Actually, it's a Trey and Lauren to Sammex I work with. They like to send me everything. You met, you met Lauren. She's one of the writers on the game. And they, they like to send me what people are, what people are saying, especially you guys.

And it is hard. It's really hard because, like, with something like Marvel, there is just an inherent expectation of I want, like, I want that comfort food, right? I want to have Venom do this or Peter to do that or Sam Man to do this. But then at the same time, well, I don't want to do the again. exact same thing I've seen or read or watching a movie. So there's that constant back and forth. Like throughout the entire development, we are doing that all the time.

Like how far can we push it? How far can we not? I mean, and that started from the first game. We're like, are we going to kill on May? Like, yeah, okay. And then the Miles game completely reinventing the tinkerer. And then obviously with this game and, you know, even like how we approach Craven and those things.

And then having like our lizard, kind of start out in the form of like the traditional lizard and then kind of going more of like a larger like he's actually really inspired by the shed comic where he looks a little bit more reptilian and larger um it wasn't just because we want to make them larger it was like actually it was inspired by that that design so um but yeah it's storylines character designs um twists and turns um feature like gameplay features in terms of um what can we do with the symbia so yeah we're constantly going back it's i mean yeah it's it's nerve-acting. Is there a balance between telling something original versus not pissing off a fan base? Because we've gotten so many Marvel adaptations now, especially with the MCU, where people have an expectation of what they're going to get out of a particular story. And so now that, yeah, you get to do Venom, you get to do Lizard, you get to do, like, Norman Osborne is in here, right? Like, there are so many established elements of a Spider-Man? Is there things where it's, oh, we want to take it this far, but there's an expectation here? We've got to align ourselves with what

Spider-Man is? Yeah, I mean... God, it's such a great question because I'm just like sitting here thinking in my head like all those. Because there will be people who are like, and I get it. It's a passionate fan base. It's passionate people. That's why we all, I mean, it's why I, you know, as a little kid was wearing eight under-roo shirts at once because I didn't know what superhero I wanted to be that day. Like it's just, it's finding that balance. And for some people like they want, I read it.

It's got to be like this. And no matter what I'm not going to be happy, which I understand. But at the same time, I feel like our job as storytellers is to find those opportunities. And for some, they'll feel like we went too far. Some will say we didn't go far enough. And some, hopefully, we hit that sweet spot. So it's really, really hard. I think we just, obviously, Spider-Man 1 gave us confidence of like, hey, we're kind of finding

that sweet spot. And then I think we do take, we end up taking more risks along the way. But I guess it's up to that person to see if we kind of, met it. So I don't know. What do you guys think? I thought you walked along great. I thought you hit that sweet spot. That was the big thing. You know, you joke around about like, you know, last time in 2018 on the review. It was like, it was kind of, you know, a Spider-Man story, which I, I wish Doc didn't go bad. You know what I mean? That was the point, though. I wanted you not want him to go bad. I actually wanted you to think they're making them so likable that we don't want him to turn bad.

And so, and I've talked about it on the show since then, and I've retracted a bit where I'm like, I still feel that way, but I might have been to, it was an unfair, like, blank statement not giving credit for Aunt May's death and all these other things. Not just because you hound me all the time about it. But Spider-Man 2 was, I think you did it really well of. We talked about this on the show, right? And I think me and blessing had an in-person conversation where when I was after night one, and even maybe night two, I was like, yeah, you know, it's more Spider-Man,

which is great. But it all, and then it was when we really get going. Once Peter got the symbiote and I really feel we got to the demo you released, that was where like in the, when the demo got released in the, PlayStation state of player. Was it the showcase? I don't remember. In the PlayStation presentation.

Yeah. It was watching it and Peter doing the, uh, going off and he was always like that. And not having played the hours up until that point, it was like, well, I've seen this before.

I know what's about that. Oh, I'm not going to lie. I sat here when I watched you guys, when I watched you guys, like, give me a chance. Like, it's going to be good.

Of course, we always expect, but we've been burned. I know, but other people. I know. Ted Price. Crazy.

Oh, wow. Wow. Ted's never burned me. But it was then going over that hump and seeing where you were taking it and living through it and going with it and then getting actually drawn into Pete and Harry in a different level right and really seeing their friendship seeing Pete you know struggle with the current being Spider-Man right now and he always is balancing that but you saw the chip damage that yeah you know what you mentioned something about it getting

going and I I think anybody who releases the game can see here and go here's the 50 things we would have done differently or we want to improve and I think looking back just in terms of the pacing, like, act one is pretty big. Like that, kind of that, before he gets a suit, it's kind of really chunky. And it's because I think it's just a thing of like, well, we got to get people caught up on the story,

the characters, the relationships, make sure you care about Pete and Harry. That takes time, right? It gets going. But I think for some people that could feel like, oh, hey, I just want to get going a little bit. So I think that's something, you know, we'll continue to look at as game makers,

like how can we get the pace? to be as best as possible. But again, I think it pays off. Yeah. Because when Pete really starts to go and we really see Venom, again, like, you know,

the classic narration of the comic, right of, but if we could peel back the suit, you'd see Peter sleeping. When it was happening in the game, I was like, oh, I know it's happening, but how are they going to show it?

Yeah. The way you show it in the fear and the horror part of it, then to get out. And like, again, I mentioned this in a vague way, I think on the review or the FAQ, but like when fucking Peter is down,

right, Miles is squaring off against all the symbiote. and then he kick he kip ups and becomes anti-venom that was my let's fucking call oh yeah so well so that so god man i'm so i swear on this yeah i'm so fucking psych to be here to talk about this stuff so the one of the biggest debates was so we're going to give p these symbiopowers and people are going to be pissed when we take them away right and i and we were like all right we'll do anti-fathom like we'll do the we'll give them back and then it was a debate of like how many missions can you go without having the

symbiol powers back to these arms like yeah exactly the idea was like let's give the time between losing the symbiote and getting anti-venom was just enough so people understood how difficult the symbiote was symbios were going to be and how much now a bigger threat venom was and then just when you had enough we're going to give it back to you so that was that was I remember actually because it we worked in the lot of the game during, obviously, most of it was during COVID. We were all, it was COVID at that point.

I remember being in my old house in this, and remember being on the Zoom call, and we were like, had the macro up and going, okay, so it's two missions, should it be three? Should we move things around? Like, I remember actually having those conferences. I can picture in my head. So yeah. For me, that that was like the payoff of it feeling like something different. Good. You know, I'm somebody who, like, you know. Yeah, what do you think about this game four to five? No, I'm kidding. No, but like, you know, for me, a lot of it was, okay, like, I know Venom, I know Fanman. Like, I've watched movies slash played games that have told the story before. And so for me, it wasn't until anti-Venom where I truly did not expect that.

Because I'm not familiar with any of the anti-Venum stuff in the comics or else that showed up. And for me, it's somebody who's, like, enjoyed and watched anime in the past, anti-venom felt like such a super saying, like, oh, shit, when did this come up? Like, when did this form come through? Yeah. And then on, that's where I started to feel the, okay, yeah, this feels like it's veering off of what I typically see. in a way that is making this stand out. Yeah, and that's a, like you said,

it's that balance of like, this is what people want or expect, this is what they don't expect, and where's that line, right? And, you know, could it happen sooner? Like, I remember reading, like, oh, Pete's gonna get the symbiote within the first hour, and I'm like, no, because like,

I think we need to build that bond between Harry and Harry and Peter. So it's, yeah, it's really awesome that you guys, any venom resonating with you guys. Oh, 100%. Once I did that, I was like, that's the suit. And then you guys gave me the classic black suit. And I was like, well, that's classic black suit.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I got to do that. See, that's an example of, like, you want that thing that you feel comfortable if you want that comfort food. You want that thing you grew up with and loved, like, and just for finding those opportunities to inject some of the other stuff. If I can just talk to, I know you got, I don't know where you're going. So I just want to do it. You're talking about, like, surprises and stuff. Yeah.

Obviously, anti-venom is right there. Playing as them, playing as venom, it wasn't, wasn't. But I think it, like, if you would as I hit the options button to start the game, I'm like, I'll probably end up playing do with some of it. But I had forgotten about it long enough and gone through this giant battle that when I did get it. I was like, oh, this is fucking lost. I'm running rock shot over it. Scream, I didn't expect to see.

And MJ a scream, yeah. Yeah, exactly. And then, of course, even taking it to really getting into the meteorite, really getting into the other symbios. It's like, oh, okay, I didn't expect to bring that part of the comics in with the crazy school. Like when we got to the first spiral, I was like, oh, yeah. Did you guys expect Pete versus Miles? I mean, yeah, I predicted that a long time. I think we thought Miles was going to kill Pete at one point.

On the PS, I love you. A lot of people, a lot of people think Pete was going to die. A lot of people, I've read people. Very happy. He didn't. And honestly, I feel like there's a,

I'm happy Harry didn't die either. Yeah. You know, we did, by the way that, you just killed every other villain in your universe. We actually did, we talked about.

That was obviously something we talked about. But we, the other thing we talked a lot about is, this is a story of two Spider-Men. Why does this story need, why does this story demand having two Spider-Men? And that was an example of, Pete and Miles both working together to save the city,

save, you know, essentially save Harry, bring him back and stuff. So that was, and that was an example of something iteration over and over with the team and, um, even external writers and working with them and making sure that the story just comes

together. We're constantly iterating over and over again. I'm just, I'm so happy specifically with Harry not dying at the end because of Finn's death and how impactful that was. Miles Morales that I just liked that we didn't like, oh yeah. I mean,

close to the emotional beats, but like we didn't need. And I think, I mean, I, There is definitely me. I think a lot of us worried like, oh, is it going to feel too similar

to the previous games and stuff like that? Obviously, a character death is a big deal, right? And it has an offensive weight and emotion. I think our challenge was, can we get that sense of emotion without a death, right?

And I think that was, and I give a lot of credit to the actors because I think, dude, actually, you know what's crazy? I couldn't even be there for that shoot. I had COVID. I got COVID and I was like devastated,

but I was watching remotely. And I remember like, I called all them afterwards. And I got on, like, so the way we can do it, you can, like, remote it and you can, like, be the voice of God. And I actually was just thanking everybody for such a great. Because they just, I mean, Graham, who plays Harry and Yuri obviously plays Peter, they just did such a great job. I was so proud of them. Do you find that fans demand death sometimes? Because it's funny how both for this game and in our speculation for games like God of War, Racken Rock, for example.

Yeah. Like the conversation is always, oh, well, when is it? Trey is going to kill Credo. So when is this character going to die? I feel like that's the conversation when it comes to the narrative beats of so many video games and big titles like this. Is that something that is purely like a fan desire? Like we want our hearts to get ripped out?

Or like how does that then feed into how you guys look into writing these stories? That's an excellent question. I haven't really thought of that before. I think there's just something. I mean, we're human beings, right? What's the worst thing is loss of a loved one or loss of somebody we know? I think there's just something inherent about those feelings. that come up and it brings things up in us. I mean, even thinking about that kind of stuff.

So I think it's a way for us to further connect to the characters, the world, the story, especially you know, in a game, like, you know, a movie could be two, three hours long. You're spending, you know, 10, 20, 30 hours, even, I mean, God, if you're playing Baldur's Gate, how long matters that thing? You know, so there's that. We want to want some type of connection. I don't think that's the only way to connect to it. And I think we're definitely trying. I mean, for me, actually, one of the most emotional moments of Spider-Man, too, is when Miles and Lee are talking and Miles kind of saying, like, I don't know if I can forgive you,

but, you know, I have to move on, right? To me, that's just that. But, but that's all the writers. That's actually, speaking of Lauren, Lauren wrote that scene, right? Like, that is a moment where, to me, it's such a great message. and just as emotional that you get from a character death. Or thinking about when Pete and Harry are in Queens and going through and finally sitting on the bleachers

and him basically saying, come on, let's be part of it. Or when they're in the EMF and he's like just talking about his mom and what this means to him and her and Aunt May. And like to me, you can get that kind of emotion and it always have to be a death. I just think. But yeah, that's a. I thought that's a great question to your point right I think it's the investment in it when we're on the outside where we have a concept art maybe a teaser and you're trying to predict what you would do it's easy to go for big strokes right yeah it's gonna be the big thing but like the Martin Lee conversation you're talking about that Lauren wrote right like for me it's the one I was like I you know it's good when I stopped the write down the quote and I go back to Ragnarok right where it's like oh shit fuck what is Greek

I want that's one that's one division right yeah yeah but whatever It was about grief. I forget. I want to get a tattoo, but I can forget it to. But the other one is when Peter's talking to, or I'm sorry, Miles is talking to lead,

right? And he's part of the job. He knows that. And he's like what? And he's believing in second chances. Yeah. What a great way to boil down the concept of what makes Spider-Man. You know,

I, you know, I know I'm very, I know I'm very fortunate, not only to do the job I have, but to be like hang out with you guys today, right? But to be able to work with an amazing team.

And I actually spend a lot of time, with the writers and it was great on a Spider-Man 2, we were able to have a much larger writing team, a lot of different perspectives and experiences. Some people who actually really didn't have a lot of experience writing games, but they brought a whole new voice to the project. And to see all of their imprints across the game

and taking like story ideas that we had in early 2019 and just expanding them and making them bigger, that's what I'm really, I know I'm, really proud of because like, you know, I couldn't come up with half this shit. Like, I couldn't, I couldn't do it, you know, it's just like, and the other thing is, I mean, you guys all know, this is the, the ability to tell a story in a video game is getting so much, so, so amazing. Like, you talk about Ragnarok, like, to grieve is to have loved fully, by the way. Yes. That's a, I mean, that, that, that, that, that franchise is just, I mean, they're just

crushing it, right? I mean, that's, that's what you're competing against or with, you know, and, um, and you're seeing that across the board, so many places, you know, we, we, we have to elevate and I'm just happy, whether it's the writers, the animators, designers, them being able to take these ideas and own them and make them so much better. Like we could stay here for next three hours and I could go through every single mission going, here's what we said at the beginning. Then these five to ten people got involved and made it like a thousand times better. To me, the thing that's so special about Spider-Man as a property overall is the world of it

because as such rich characters, the locations, there's so much that people know and so much legacy with movies, games, TV shows, comics, everything in between. And it is playing with the expectations, fulfilling the expectations when it comes to what you want to know and all that. We're talking about what surprised us earlier and like the anti-ventment moment being so exciting. To me, the exciting moment was the Sandman fight in the beginning. Oh, my God.

That set piece was so incredible. But what I love about it is to me, I feel like that was just such a great kind of thesis statement about what this game's going to be, which is set piece after set piece and these wild moments of the Spider-Man interacting with each other with characters that, of course, Sandman's going to be there. Why wouldn't he be? But we didn't know he was going to be. And I feel like the game constantly just rewards you with like these character moments.

And for me, it was the Miles getting thrown by Sandman through the building. That scene is incredible. Slingotting back. It was like, that is the let's fucking go moment. And that was 10 minutes in. You know, so we actually said Sandman really early. Like, it was actually, I remember, it was one of the first conversations we had, and I just walked in and said, I want the opening to be Samman.

I had no idea. I think I was probably riding high off, you know, making Spider-Man one. I was like, okay, like, we, and I obviously knew that we were going to be on PS5. And I was, and I was thinking a couple things, like, one. You've seen all this voxel technology they have. I was like, I was like, so it's going to be Spider-Man 2. We know we're going to have, we're going to have two heroes. What's a threat from the very beginning it demands two heroes?

Then it's like, you know, we had, you know, the fist, Fisk in the first game and then we had the kind of the rhino chase. What's something that like scale-wise is going to like go crazy? And then what's the third thing is like, what's going to like within the first 25 minutes, 25 minutes people go, oh, PS5. And that's kind of the combination. I had no clue if we could do it.

I had no clue how we could do it. And then, you know, like four and a half years later, it finally happens. So yeah, it's a, there's a lot of, the game definitely, something I joke about with the Marvel guys is we're like, how can we make it more Marvel? And like, to us, that's kind of like,

make the epicness crazy. And there's a lot of, a lot of big, big moments throughout the main campaign. Like we, like there's, you can talk about, you know, the boat sequence. You can talk about Coney Island. You can talk about playing as Venom. You can talk about, you know,

the final. mission like, it's basically like an hour long. It's crazy. So I think for us was balancing those like big epic, holy God, this is like, you know, in a way, I'm, you guys probably know us. I'm a big uncharted fan. It was like, how can we bring that level of scaled epicness to an open world in a way? But at the same time, how do we have those slower outside the suit human moments like Queens? Like I was adamant like I want that queen's mission. I want that going back. I want to go midtown high.

I want to see riding the bike. We pulled out of the bike. I was like, I was like, I was like, I was like, I can guarantee you Greg's not thinking he's going to ride a bike in this. Like I can guarantee that, right? There's no way. I love the ultimate Spider-Man like haircut.

Yeah. Yeah. And I mean, you've just seen like, you know, making them look younger. And then like Yuri like changing his voice to sound younger, right? I was like, if we, if we connect. that Queen's mission is going to make you care about

Pete and Harry for the rest of the day. And I was like, and we just went back and forth and that team worked. Because that's another thing is like, we spend so much time in missions and features that are like where they're in the suit, right?

And you're doing Spider-Man thing. There's very little, outside of one part in the gym, you're not really doing a lot of Spider-Man stuff at all. So you have to create a whole mission around that. So all your unique stuff and kind of borrowing and finding things. and then doing

you're in present day you're in past you're present back and all that kind of stuff and you know and that's an example of like all the loading we can do with the PS5 and stuff

so but that was really important to me like we as much as time we spend in all these big big oh my God this is like being playing an MCU set piece it's just important

to have those slower moments so speaking on on villains right like you talk about Sandman but like for the main villains we're talking about Venom and we're talking about Craven right and like, you know, you throw a lizard in there as well.

How do you guys go about choosing the overall villains? Because, like, from the outside looking in, it feels like you guys are kind of going through what best of. And they're like, okay, who are the best Spider-Man villains? Let's just throw them in there. Because look at the first game, it's Doc Ock, right? You look at this game in its venom. And it seems like you guys...

See it up for the third. Yeah, like Green Goblin, possibly, who knows? There's one we have not featured yet. It's a... It is... I'll tell you, the process starts with... It starts just like you would imagine. We're all fans of Spider-Man and Marvel.

which characters do we like? Like, just like fanboy out, completely go. Like, Doc Ock is my favorite Spider-Man villain. That's why he's the first game. 100% that's why. I'm not going to, you know, being the creative director gives you sometimes the ability, we're doing it. We're doing Doc Doc, right?

And I just love the idea of like the father figure, that kind of thing, right? What's that? You knew. You knew. You knew. That's right. That's right. It's funny.

Sometimes when I see that, I'm like, wait, we had him say it twice. And I'm like, yeah, we did. And so it starts with that. And then we're like, okay, what story do we want to tell? What's going to allow us to talk about that? And we knew, obviously, we knew we were going to do Venom, right? Because we set it up. But like, how can that, what are other characters that kind of help us tell the story of Pete and Miles that we want?

So obviously, we knew that in many ways, Pete and Miles are kind of dealing with their past a little bit, right? How can they, in order to move forward, they have to come to terms with the past. has to come to terms with may not long no longer being here. Miles has to come the terms with if he's going to write that college essay and be able to write it, he needs to be able to put the past of Lee behind, not forget his dad or, you know, or even maybe forgive Lee, but he has to move on from it, right?

And Rio says that to him in that one scene. And then I think for us, we also looked at, if you look at both Spider-Man 1 and Miles, a lot of those enemies are tech-based, like they use tech. and we were like, hey, for Spider-Man 2, since we knew we were going to do Venom,

do we want more of that science gone wrong, monster kind of feel, and that was what I'm doing. Now, Craven's obviously not a monster. He's completely different. He hunts them. So we're like, oh, great, we're going to have, like, more monsters. You want somebody who would be, like, interested in a hunt of, you know, of, like, what's the, you know, the deadly, you know,

it's like that kind of thing. So it's, it's, like, kind of, it's, like, kind of, starts with a fanboy, starts with the story, it goes with the story, and then kind of, like, thematically, how can we make this game feel different from the previous games? We always talk about the moments that we'll never forget from movies or games or stuff that will be talked about for years to come. And Spider-Man Homecoming had a moment that every time we watch it blows our minds. And that is Pete opening the door and the vulture is actually the dad.

That's such a great scene. I'm a new guest because we didn't see it coming. Spider-Man 2, I think has one of those moments. It's a little more subtle in how it's presented. But the moment you realize that Craven's been killing the Sinister Six. Oh, yeah. That is the thing that all of us were like, are you kidding me? That is so, so cool. And I think raised the stakes and was such a creative choice that playing through and like, it feels semi-optional.

I don't know if it is. There might be parts that, like, you have to see. But walking around and finding out all the, like, the documents and seeing the different, like, pieces of the armor and stuff, it's like, this is a wild take on Craven. And it just adds up and makes so much sense, him being the hunter. When he gets, when he gets Scorpion. Right? And brings out, I'm like, oh, what are they going to do? Oh, well, he's not dead. Oh, he's dead.

You know, it's hearing you guys talk. It's funny because I think back to like conversations I had like three years ago. I was like, oh, yeah, we're going to have him like, we're going to, like, I kind of forgot that that's the thing. He hunts them. I know I've played this game a thousand times. Like, I'm like, oh, yeah, we had that decision. Like, that's going to be the twist as like they think he's recruiting them to help him do whatever he wants. No, he's actually going to kill him.

So. Um, and, uh, there's Marvel games. Does Bill Roseman be like, no, and we're not kidding. No, those, I mean, I love Bill. I love,

I love Eric. I love all those guys. By the way, they're going to eat straight for Eric. Yeah. You're walking in and you listen to a baseball game. It was like, Eric Monticelli. Yeah.

Yeah. Well, we gave Bill the head shout out. He had to get, we had to give one to Eric. Craven is a really hard character to get right. He is, I mean,

we went through a lot of different. I mean, at one point, I think he was going to be a businessman, which really didn't do that. He was like, it was like, we're like, how can you have like a have a version of him that's like kind of normal and that he becomes? And we're like, you know what? Just get him in that outfit, man. Let's have him. Let's have him. Let's, let's get out there and wanted to like pump up all these villains.

Be like, I want you as your best form lizard. It's like, come on. That's just like. And you know what? And the thing about Craven is some, we realized after a while less was more in terms of the more that the more that he. he spells everything out. It's almost like kind of going behind the curtain. And like we were like, we wanted to be mysterious.

We wanted to be like, what is going through his head? And that's kind of that, once we kind of hit that, the kind of the character talks, but Jim Peary, who plays Craven, it was, I mean, that was a hard character to cast, but I'll tell you a really funny story about. Can I tell us casting story? So we're casting out, we're trying to figure out who is Craven, but also like, what does he say?

sound like. And I remember at one point during auditions, I happened to say, well, like, he should sound like, in the original John Wick movie, he should sound like the father in John Wick. And Jim, I guess, was off the side and heard

me say that. So when he had the callback, he had watched that to get the right voice. And then when he came in for the callback, he was actually testing with Yuri. And it was a scene where he's in the cage. We did We had a version of that scene, and Jim just fucking crushes it.

And I actually cast him the day before we got shut down for COVID. And by the end, Jim was telling us how Craven should be. Awesome. That was... That's what you want. Like, one of the... Like, you know, we shoot out of order, right? It was one of the ones where it was Craven on the...

He was coming over and where they tell him the Sandman alluded us. And he's like, I guess he's not the one. Jim is telling us how he should be sitting and how he should be positioned and him playing with a knife. That's all Jim. And I'm just like, when you get, that's when I'm like, I, the actors make, they're the ones who take the story that we have and the characters and the motivations and stuff and put it over top. And there's one other story I want to tell. One of my favorite scenes is the scene where we see here, we are Venom for the first time where they're all at the dinner table and, Harry is trying to tell Pete like, this is your last chance.

You're going to come with me. So Graham, who plays Harry, he's doing the whole thing. And we're sitting there. We did a couple takes. And then all of a sudden, like three, it was me, Bobby Connington, our animation director, and Ben, one of our narrative directors. We're all like talking about what notes we're going to give. And Graham just goes, guys, I got it.

We didn't say anything to him. He's like, I got it. And he just drops, like, just like, just crushes. the scene. Like just, and when you, at that point when the actors just kind of like really understand their character and just take it to a whole other level, like, it's great. I mean, I mean, I remember when the first days, Graham and Yuri were on there, on the bikes on the set and then you have these, you do those scenes. So by time you get to like that, like, we are Venom moment, it just is like. They have the connection too, right? They've built that conversation. Yeah. And they and they're, and you know,

like, and that's the thing like, I mean, I'm sure. I'm sure. I'm. I'm sure. I'm. I'm. I'm. I'm. I. I know you've talked to a lot of teams, a lot of directors, like, you know, especially in the Sony side. There's definitely a bond between the team and the cast. Sure. And I think that what's like, like, I had brunch with Yuri a couple weeks ago, as we live right, you know, just as friends, right? You know, and I think their ability to take the characters in the story and elevate it is really what makes this stuff, like really special. Like, I, the days being on set are some of my favorite by far. Sorry, I'm just going to keep talking.

Oh, I love my. That's kind of how the spoiler cast supposed to work. They've heard us talk about the game already. Yeah, exactly. I want to get to you in just a sec. But real quick, I want to take a word from our sponsors. This episode's brought you by BetterHelp. Do you ever feel like your brain is getting in its own way?

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Visit betterhelp.com slash kind of funny today to get 10% off your first month. That's better help, hlp.com slash kind of funny. Betterhelp.com slash kind of funny. We went around with it earlier, but we're back to us. I think it's a good point to jump in with. Again, you're talking about this being a team effort, right? Both the writers, the performers, the animators, and everything else. I wanted to call it the three emotional moments for me that are also, I think, smaller ones,

that aren't the big ones. But either your writers, your animators, your... It's probably... It's like, it's, that's, well, that's the one thing about doing these things. I feel like if I name somebody, I'm, I'm sure, like 20. Yeah, exactly. I'm sorry, insomac. So at the end, you know what I mean?

Like, still playing through video games like this is, is an interesting thing for me still, because, of course, I'm a father now, right? Yeah. That's changed since the last Spider-Man. And I think to Ragnarok, right? And I think of the beginning of Ragnarok, you know, this being a weird bookend for my life. The beginning of Ragnarok, the death of Fenier, right, hitting me because of Portillo. Yeah.

And then the end when Kratos is talking to. to Trace in the tent, right? And he's like starting to chucked up and how that killed me thinking about Ben, right? The end of Spider-Man 2 here, there's, I think, an incredibly understated moment of when Harry's in the bed, MJ and Peter are in the room

and Norman goes over there and touches his face and then the bubbling rage and then the, like, not even before you get to the rage or anything, just him touching his face broke me of like thinking about my son in that same position. And then again, what you would do as a father, then to see that play out in the Doc Doc.

Post credit scene. And I was like, oh, fuck. Mark Rolston, baby. Yeah, right. God damn, he's good. Yeah. And so, like, and that's what he's playing. I would assume on the mocap stage, right?

Yeah. Just this little thing he's doing. That, when you work with someone like Mark Rolston, who's that talented, you just let them go. Yeah. You just go, Mark, there's the scene. Make it better. And then for me, the other tiny ones, right, that I never in a million years would have thought about.

And coming into them would be the Howard side mission and then the grandpa side mission. Okay. Do you know how the Howard mission? I'm going to tell you the story, how the. Howard mission happened. So if I know, I wanted too much money to keep coming back

and like, we're going to kill you. So, one of our designers, Brian Matheson, who actually, he's the designer of the Saman Mission.

He is one of the most creative designers I have ever worked with. And we, at the end of the one year, we did like a, like, we just let the guys,

the whole team just like, a game jam. Like, just go make something fun. And he made the Howard mission in like three days, like prototyped in three. days and he put some music in there and it's like it's not a lot of gameplay right but it man it's got with the music and the in everything and then we're like cut paste put it in the game like we're

that is that we're going to do it was that was never planned Brian just had a creative idea one day and put it in the game and that happens all time but like that specific that Howard mission is amazing yeah and then yeah the grandpa mission right of trying to find this woman's grandpa like okay no big deal and then it was like is that starts to go and you sit down on the bench and again like the essence of what is Spider-Man? What separates Spider-Man from Superman from Batman from any other Marvel guy who's not what? You know what? What is this

guy and that's who that guy is? You know what? One of my, it's actually actually not a scene, but it is the VO, the the Vio that plays between Pete and Miles during the Pete and Miles fight and hearing Pete say now I, they say now I'm the problem

and hearing like he's at, he's like, he's like, I mean, like he's like at his like we're about to lose Peter like we're about to lose him and seeing you know Miles pull pull him back to me that's one of the it's not a scene but that Vio back and forth

really gets me every time again performances oh my god Najee crushes it so good I want to jump off this because I feel like the Insomniac Spider-Man series is very uniquely positioned in that it is now I think one of in the pantheon of like

greatest Spider-Man universes that are out there and like it's up people have their favorite movies, favorite shows, favorite comics, whatever. But I feel like this is in terms of quality, in terms of expectations, in terms of amount of characters and things that we've seen, there's there. Like, there's now an understanding of what the Doc Ock in this universe is and the venom in this universe is and the background and story. The white spider.

Exactly. That can pop up in a movie. Yes. Oh, it's insomnia. It's Marvel Spider-Man. Yes. And I feel like there's so much identity there. You still hate that suit?

Yeah. Oh, yeah. I'm sorry. Go for it. But like, everybody, I want you know, I love these guys. I'm just getting in crap. You would not be here with those. Okay.

No, I love the suit when I see it in Spider-Verse, when I see it in a comic book, when I read the game. But when I'm playing for some reason, I'm just like, no, I've seen it. I'm reading back in the classic. I still love you. For the record, I like the suit. Thank you. I hate the game.

The Peter sucks. Yeah, there you go. There you go. Perfect. But I love, I love that the identity of it all. And I feel like it has so much in any, so many choices that are uniquely insomniac. But I think what is extra special that I'm seeing as a very big Spider-Man fan, somebody that's read so many of like the Miles comics,

I'd say the majority of them at this point. It's interesting to see the world get introduced to Miles Morales via Into the Spider-Verse, right? That is now kind of the canon version of Miles to the mainstream and the public. And I feel like you guys immediately following that up with the Miles game, reinforced it and like added to the own stamp there. What I think is so special at Spider-Man too is this is the first time really that we're seeing the Spider-Men together.

Yeah. in a way that's dealing with many storylines, many villains, many previous lore and all that stuff, because there was the Spider-Men comic series, like two six-issue runs or whatever, crossover events that we get multiverse stuff, whatever, into the Spider-Vers, we get Peter B. Parker.

This is Peter Parker and Miles Morales as contemporaries. Yes. And I feel like that must be so much pressure for you guys, but also so much fun to be able to kind of define what does that relationship look like for a Miles that's facing a Peter that's just dealing with the symbiom. Yeah.

I will say that we, I mean, obviously when we had Miles in the first game, right? When we got the spider bite, we knew, hey, he's going to become a spider hero and we're going to, hopefully, if the game is good, we'll do one where they can be together, right? That being said, telling a story with not one, but two main heroes is really effing tough. Like, it is a challenge because, like, you're telling a story, a main story that is like, okay, them together, right? But then you want to make sure that they have their own individual journeys, right? So, and then being able to interweave those and then thinking just about, not just the story,

but hey, in this mission you play as Pete, but the next one we're going to play is Miles. How do we transition there? Or in this mission, they're together, but the next one, they're apart. So how do we get Miles out of the scene or Peter out of the thing? So now we can just play. So there's a lot of like, there's multiple times where I know I said to myself, I go, why did we do, why did I say we should do? to here, why.

And then, but you ask yourself that and then you realize you're asking yourself because it's the tough thing to do, it's the right thing to do. But I will tell you, the thing I think I'm probably most proud of of the game is that the relationship, the story of them together and how, you know, in a way, they're contemporaries, but you can tell kind of Pete still kind of right now, like he's definitely there for miles in the beginning. But by the end, it's Miles kind of saying, we're going to do this. to do that. And I don't know if you guys caught this when the mission, the second last

mission where they show up Pete's in the anti-venom and Miles has his new suit. And Miles is telling Pete about what his dad and what May would say. And then at one point, Pete goes, what's the play coach. Oh, yeah. That's what that's what Miles says to Pete at the, near the end of Spider-Man 1. So they flip. Oh, they flip. Now, Miles is the one kind of saying, And here's, he's kind of not handing the baton, but saying, hey, you know, it's your, I'm going to listen to you now. And that's the, I think that's the, that to me is like something. And then I think that eventually leads to that conversation they have at the very end. Like, hey, go Pete Pete for a while.

I got this. And for me, that was the thing, right? I didn't catch the, the fact that it was the crossover with one. But for me, it was the baton pass where I knew we were getting to, without knowing, getting to the garage. We got to the garage. Yeah. One of the things I want to bring up, you know, talking about, you know, emotionally resonant moments in the game. One that really hit for me is all the Haley stuff, you know,

culminating in doing the mission where you're playing as Haley and you get that experience. But even building up to that and around that, right, like, Haley's relationship with both Miles and Ganky and Rio and everybody, like being able to do the sign language and be able to communicate with her and have it be a thing that feels like it's authentically done and very well realized. Like, what was all that like for you guys? How did, what, and like, you know, talking about, you know, bring up the power of the PS5. One of the things that kept coming into mind for me as that stuff,

that was happening was like, you wouldn't be able to do this on the PS2 on the PS3, I don't think, right? Like this is something that you're able to do because of how far games have come. Yeah, well, you know, I will tell you, so when we sent the review code out, I was like, I wanted, I wanted,

there was a part where I wanted to write a note going, please play the Haley mission. Just please play that. Because I was, I am really, really proud. Again, that's an example of like, there was not, at the beginning of that of development, there was no Haley mission. There was no Haley playable.

Like, that's all extra work that the team was, like we feel really passionate about this. We want to do it. And they just did it. Like, they just went ahead and did it. And the fact that, like, you know, making sure that the soundscape reflected what, how she was, how she would experience it, right? And just there, and the Miles Haley relationship, how it, you know, and, you know, I think for us is about, you know, for us, it's not just about showing the world from Pete and Miles's perspective. It's showing it from all of our characters' perspectives.

That's why MJ is there. That's why we show MJ in the middle of things. That's why it was important to the team to show Haley and be authentic and be respectful of that relationship. And, you know, I remember at one point we've actually, the Haley mission is actually one of the last things I ever reviewed in terms of like I'm at the studio with the audio team reviewing like, is it all working the way it is? And I even like, even work with the designers.

Originally we had text that said like, there was a, there was sometimes we were worried like, hey, if the audio obviously drops out, like we don't have as much audio to reflect how she would be hearing, kicking the world, but actually had a note. And one of the designers, Hesway said, a design director goes, no, let's remove it. Let's just have people experience it like her. And you talk about the identity of the, of the franchise. And to me, having moments like that is, to me,

what takes it to another level. See, that was the thing for me. You mentioned, you know, Greg Miller would never expect to, like, ride a bike in this game. For me, I would have never expected to the mission like that and aspire to me. Yeah, and I think, like,

even just like the little emojis that happen, like, all that's all the team just coming up, dreaming up this stuff and, like, being so, like, they love, I mean, every, every single person in the team loves Haley, every single person, and they just wanted to do it, and they're willing to put the extra time and effort. Because, I mean, you know,

obviously things like Sandman, and venom and all that stuff. Like, that's like the thing, but like the amount of time and attention and care and love that go into those moments, like, yeah. That makes me feel really good to work at a place that cares that much about the entire experience and making sure we do,

when we do those moments, we're not just doing it to surprise, we're doing it to be out of respect and the right thing to do. For me, it was the fact that it wasn't just a scene, right? It wasn't just a scene or a specific, like, five-minute sequence in the game is the fact that when you're playing his miles and Haley calls you, She has the Texas speech. You have the full mission.

You have so many scenes where Haley is in there and people are paying attention and, like, communicating with her. And that's the thing about, and that's the team, the team doing the homework and going out and finding out, how do we make sure we do this the right way? How do we have the right consultants to go, hey, you know, we are doing this? Like, we're having, like, consultants on set when we're doing a scene between Haley and Miles, make sure that we're doing it right. Because, you know, because as me is, I'm always scared.

I'm like, am I going to offend somebody? Am I doing this? Are we doing something wrong? I last thing I would ever want to do is to try to do something great and then it offends somebody. So it's just, I'm glad that I hope that the whole world when they play it appreciates it and enjoys it. Because it does like kind of, it makes the world, even though I know it's a fake world, it makes it feel more real than me. And that's why I'm really happy that we can do that. And I'm really happy that you enjoyed it, you played it, you experienced it because that, you know, all those, you know, one thing, you know, you bring up a point about, like, the extra content.

One of the things we really focused on was, you know, we understand the main story is something every, that's the first thing people really talk about, right? But how can we inject, even if it's a small story into some of that side, some of that optional content, like whether it's the Howard or the grandpa or the kids of broken visions or the Haley. And then even like something like that is a little bit more like challenging, like, or like a collectible like a, like a sandman. Hey, there's a narrative that builds as we go.

That's something we were adamant. Like, I can still see the PowerPoint that I have is like, Marvel people love story. Everything has to have a story. And that's what I was wondering about this of what, not changed because 2018 had great side stuff too. But this side stuff, everything matters,

whether it's Raith, whether it's carnage, whether it's spider bots. Mysterio. Yeah. Yeah. And I think that was, I can tell you, that was a huge focus.

And I know, like, some people say it's never. enough of the optional stuff, right? I get it. I get it. I mean, we, for us, it's like, hey, we're going to make as much as we can at the highest quality we can and we can't make it high quality, we're going to stop. Like, that's like, when people are like, how long is the game when I'm like, it's going to be as long as the content is, we feel as at our quality level, right? But it was really, really important. Like, there's narrative payoffs or narrative setups or a mystery that you're trying to figure out along the way. So I love that you guys dove into it. I want

to comment on my favorite one because I think for me the favorite group of side activities would have been the flame stuff. Yeah. For me it came out of nowhere and it was also like me as a arrow verse fan like I don't know much about Raith in the comic. Yeah. And so like getting there, I'm like you are so arrowcoded in a way that I appreciate because like I played City that never sleeps the DLC and like I forgot the whole. I know Yuri storyline. So when we get there, I'm like, what happened to you? But then as we go, the fact that yeah, like the villains in like in that activity you're kind of wrong. They're like,

there are these cultists and it's really cool and then you get to the end and that reveal, for me, I was like, what the fuck is going on here? So it's not surprising

because it's definitely the, probably of the optional stuff, the biggest like, I mean, it kind of feels like main content, right? It's got, it's just, how many can you do of those

and keep the quality level high? So it's like, you know, I would rather do less, but make it better than just have a ton of stuff and not do it right. So,

yeah, that, And, you know, it's funny. Well, so, you know, Tara Platt plays Yuri, who is Yuri Lohenthal's wife. So to see them kind of battle on stuff. I mean, we knew we were always going to do Raith at some point. And it's like, get ready.

You're going to battle. That's something that I love about this is Raith. Like, we're getting so into the duffy of these Spider-Man characters and going back to the identity of the Insomniac verse of all these. Like, I feel like Martin Lee, Mr. Negative, was another one that was kind of put. into the mainstream because of 2018 and Tinkerer getting the

redesign and all the, not redesign, but you know, it's a reboot. A reboot. Reimagined. It was awesome and even Prouler to some extent all of that. But I love Pratt. I love just the sheer amount of the villains in this game, amount that are teased and hinted at. But Greg and I were talking about

the city that never sleeps, DLC and how we love it. You guys are just committing to, yeah, that stuff happened. The lore's there. We're going to reference it. Characters that changed in those, like Black Cat, included are going to be that happened that and we're going to address that in spiderman too in a way that you didn't need to play it you kind of contextually understand it all but i mean you guys i mean we've talked about this you guys know i love the mcc like like i'm

a big fan of it right well i'm just i'm just taking homages to that from them in terms of like let's get let's let's let's find those little things that we can reference and throw them in there for the people who do like like for example this uh on tuesday night was it tuesday or wednesday was like the anniversary of Tony Stark dying in the game, right? Well, I was watching it that night, and I got a really funny story. I want to tell you guys about that. But that movie hits harder for the people who know all the movies, right? Who've been there and know all those things, right?

But like, if you just, like, kind of remember, it's still really great, but I will tell you a really funny story. So I'm watching it. This is total aside. I apologize, but I've got to say it because I want to show it to her. So my wife comes home from work, and I'm watching it. And at the very end, we get to the part where Steve Rodger. as handing the shield.

And to all of a sudden, we're talking about how old cap is. And we had the 15-minute debate about how old cap was at that moment and how much the super soldier serum affected him. And I just said, I've never loved you more in my life. But yeah, but I just aside.

But it is, but I want to go back to something you said about Mr. Negative and Rath. I think one of the philosophies we've kind of had, either by mistake or I'll sound like, I'll say I did it on purpose, but to sound smarter. Give people of stuff you know they want, so you can inject things that maybe they aren't familiar with

or maybe they don't know they want, but make them like that stuff. So like, I knew Doc Doc Ack was coming. I knew Sinister Six would be there. I knew that would get the Marvel, I would hope that would get Marvel staying excited to give you a chance to go, hey, I'm going to give this Mr. Negative guy a chance, you know?

Like someone who's not as maybe well known or hasn't been as part of the comics as long. So I think that kind of gives us some of that ability to try and different things. I want to stick on the city that never sleeps for a second, because we talk on our different shows, games daily, PSL-L-Vie, Gamescast, all of this, all the time about theorizing what's next, what's happening, PlayStation Studios as a whole, how they handle things.

And a question I've always had is, Spider-Man 2018, having the three-part city that never sleeps, DLC come out, and then having Miles Morales come out that is this kind of, how would you define Miles Morales? Do you want truthfully? Yeah. That's Spider-Man 2. Interesting.

That's Spider-in, in my head, that's Spider-Man too. Like, in a way, and I told Brian Horton that when he was developing. I'm like, we can call it Spider-Man Mouse Morales, but to me, that's Spider-Man too, because it's, I don't, listen, we can get a debate about game-like. I don't really give a shit about the game. It's a great effing game. Oh, absolutely. And, I mean, it's, it's awesome.

It's great. Pretty good. And it's funny, I got, I got to work on just a little bit at one. At one point because, you know, when, you know, they're finishing up, anything I could do to help. But, like, that's, that's all them. Those guys, that team just crushed it. They did such a good job.

But to me, in many ways, that's, like, it just, it's, I don't, like I said, it's just, it's just, it's, it's, it's an essential. I hope people play that game. I hope they don't get wrapped into, like, I know it's X hours long or whatever. That is a, that is, that's a great game. So, so that's, sorry. I just, like, like, advertising and please. please buy at no no no but we love that like we love those smaller games we love uncharted lost

legacy we love miles morales we want to see more of that stuff and and and that's the thing is to me is like in in the levels of how PlayStation or whoever looks at it as is this a success or not like i would hope that we see more things like city that never sleeps but do you guys see sitting never sleeps as a success i do i do i mean i think how you i mean i do i mean i'm not going to get here and get into sales figures and all that stuff but like i think it is extended the story, extended the world. Like, I think some of those things like the city never sleeps, like, it's just like, what do you, what do the expectations are you going in?

If you're expecting, like, oh, it's going to be like, I mean, I'm, that's unfair. I guess if you're buying it, you should have high expectations. I get that. It's just, if you go, hey, that's the next another story that I can experience. Great. If you're like, this has to be 20 hours long, exactly what the first part of my one, well, you're going to be disappointed. So, listen, I would love to make more games like Miles.

Like, I think I would love to do more stuff like that if it works out for whether it's the, it's not just like, is it work for Sony? Does it work for us in terms of what else we're making? Because like, I can tell you, we work just as hard as Miles Morales as we did Spider-Man 2 and worked on Ratchet. Like the amount of effort goes in there. It doesn't matter if it's five hours, 10 hours, 15 hours, whatever. We're blood, sweat and tears are going into that experience, right?

So I think it's about, first of all, are people want it, do people want to pay for it? And then also like, does it fit in terms of like everything else? Our studio or if another studio is going through that same thing. How much are you thinking about the feature as you're creating new narratives, new things that are happening in a Spider-Man 2, for example, because there are so many threads that I can't wait to see where we go from here. And for example, like, Carnage. Would you love to make a DLC for this one? Yeah, like, when I take something like Parnage. Where's that new game plus that?

Are we doing that? It's coming. I promise you. It's coming. Is it Cindy? The character versus Cindy versus Cindy versus what's T's with North. Are we going to eventually talk about that? Oh,

right here. Yeah. Well, he predicted it. You predicted. You predicted Cindy. Did I? Well, I don't remember doing that, but if I did, I was probably doing it, Tim Getty's point, which is don't do Gwen.

Yes. That's what it was. And I was like, oh, shit. Yeah. I was like, oh, my God. I was like, how does he know? But we'll talk more about the leader. The reason I know is identity.

I know that Insomniac doesn't want to just do the same thing that everybody has seen before. I mean, Cindy needs the spotlight. All right. So blessing to your question. Like, do we think of all the way through? I will tell you when I, so I work remote. I work at home now. I don't go to the office anymore.

I mean, I do once in a while, but not most of the night. And I remember during Spider-Man 1, I would drive home and I think a lot about the future, like where everything. And I still do. I still have those moments where I'm driving and thinking about it. There's a, I'll tell you, there's like a roadmap where we want to go. It bends. And it, it may be, I maybe think we're going left and we're going to, but right and but we're going to end up coming back to that same spot. So there are elements that we definitely know where we're going.

But I'm never like, I said this nine years ago. It's going to be like this. no matter what. Though it's crazy sometimes where I'm like, wow, actually we did do what we talked about many years ago. But I try not to be, first of all, I don't have all the best ideas. And I think that especially when, you know, seeing people either be on a team for a while or new people come to studio, they inject so many cooler ideas than we originally thought. So it's like, hey, let's go.

But, you know, I'll put you this way. seeing Otto at the end of this game, I knew that like eight years ago. So here's my question about that, because this is actually the first bullet point I ever put down. And I know we're just going to talk, so I didn't need notes, but I want to make,

it's more of a checklist to make sure I hit everything I want it. I don't drive home and freak out about it, right? So this is going to sound like I'm trying to pin you down. Obviously I'm not. And we, this panel understand, and the audience understands how video games are made. But when you guys started off for Spider-Man 2018,

did you have in your head, like this is what the entire thing, going to be. And then, you know, again, I'm reading into what the villain says at the end, but what is that? The final chapter. Did you see this being a trilogy? And obviously, there's Ben's, things can change, things can go to this, but like from the onset, when you're pulled into a room and they say, do you want to make a Marvel game, is your idea, you know what? I want to do three games. I want to do this. I want to do this story. I want it to be a trilogy. I wanted to be the Spider-Man. I think I didn't say it had to be a trilogy. I think, uh, I said,

like, okay, let's get the first one. But as you make really early on, you're like, well, if it is, like we have multiple things. Here's where it could go. But that scene with Norman and Otto, I've had a version of that scene in my head. You can ask John Paquette. It's like the one thing I've like, John, remember this moment.

Keep remembering this moment. Got to get this moment. But that's the one I, I'm probably feel like I'm most proud of because there's a version of that. Always been there. But, yeah, there's a plan. There's a plan.

It's changed. It's definitely changed. I mean, I can tell you right now, the word Cindy was never uttered nine years ago, right? But yeah, we try to have somewhat a plan, but not be so rigid that it can't get better. That's the goal. So then my question next would be, is your second favorite villain, Green Goblin? Because I feel like there's a lot of parallels to, first off, obviously, how much you love, Docok. Then in our last spoiler cast, you said, this,

be it deserves, it can't just be a suit you tossing. It's got to be a thing, right? And then it wasn't until really I saw that where I was like, oh, well, of course, Green Goblin. And I mean, throughout history of Spider-Man, you can do a million different, oh, that's, you know, this, blah, blah. But Green Goblins always been the guy, right? And like, here we are.

I'm like, huh, giving him his justice. I will tell you that character has been talked about at the start of every game. Okay. thinking about the future, not saying anything. Of course. I will, this will be the thing that I guarantee,

if Spider-Man won and Miles were our Iron Man, and this was kind of our Civil, Spider-Man 2 was like our Civil War. It's time for the end game. I got so many chills right there, baby. Come on. So I got a couple of questions. That's the thing we can pass around for next,

whatever. I don't mean that we passed around, yeah. The spider box. I'm stoked for your Eternals. When is that? Oh, God, man. Jesus. Where's your Loki?

The spider bots and all the spy, like the Spiderverse tease and stuff. One hell of cool. Like, by the time I got the last one and you peer into like the portal and it's like the what is going on. The portal. Yeah. It's the up. Like, really cool.

I was playing a remote play next to Jen while she was watching Gray's Anatomy. By the way, I need a PlayStation portal sooner rather than later. I, I ordered one of those. I can't wait for that. Wait, dude. Is it is it? I've never tried it. I did it once in test conditions. It was awesome. Cool. I'm excited. I'm so pumped for that.

Anyways, though. When it's when it finally, when it opened, I paused it and I was like, Jen, you got to see this. And I made, I turned up the volume and made her watch the entire thing. And she's like, I still have a speedy and Spider-Verse. So this isn't as cool. And I'm like, but yeah, they did the damn thing. They did the thing. And then I Googled them. It's Delilah who wasn't in the movie, who got cut from the movie that Chris could design. And I'm like, and I wanted to text Chris, but I didn't text Chris. Yeah. So, um, we had, we had, we, We've been very fortunate over the years to have a relationship with the Spider-Verse team.

And obviously it started on Spider-Man 1 with the suits. And then Miles, it took a whole other level with the suits plus the animation style. And we were trying to figure out how we could continue to build upon that relationship. So I met with the directors multiple times over the years. And we're trying to figure out how we could, what would be a, a, How could we go beyond suits, right? And we're like, and I mentioned, like, we have this spider bot thing. And I was like, I think, I understand everybody wants everything to be like these big missions and stories.

But sometimes you just need stuff to like go find and have fun. Like, like, we were in our head was like, what's the next backpack? Yep. What's the next backpack we can do? And we were like, well, we love these spider bots. and like we had them. And then the team just started making like crazy ones and were like, hey, could we somehow connect that?

And we presented the idea to the spider restrictors. And they were like, oh, hey, we had this character that we didn't end up using. And we kind of just pitched them the idea. And they were like, go for it. So yeah. So what do you see this as? Do you see this as that was just a fun nod

and it just connects to those movies? Or do you see this as, hey, this could potentially be part of gameplay in the future? Truthfully, I don't know yet. I think that one thing I think that you look, we talked about the MCU, the Spider-V-Everse us, I think the one thing is what's really, I believe my opinion is like they're all, they're all done at a really high quality and it shows how much people love Spider-Man and if you, the Spider-heroes and if you do it right, people will enjoy it and want more of it. I don't, and we all, but we kind of all do our kind of own thing.

I don't know if we just I don't know if it's all about just like oh every now everything's multiverse right I don't I don't know like hey Spiderverse that those that film those films are just like I mean I know they're ridiculous right so but now

would we just do the same thing and you know like is there maybe we do a bigger connection I don't know I don't even know what I'm having for dinner tomorrow night so like I can't even think I mean I can't even think about anything right now so if opportunity to present itself, maybe if it doesn't, hey,

it was a great moment in this game. So we'll see. See where it goes. That's, I can tell you that I have not thought about nine years ago or whatever we started. Yeah, yeah, yeah. We'll figure that's, and that's the thing it's like, maybe if I was so rigid, we wouldn't have done, like, oh, we can't do this, but I'm like, that may, I guarantee

you guys have more fun doing that spider, that spider, that spider bot thing with that big reveal. Yeah. Oh, yeah. That was, I mean, that was the thing of them being collectibles and then, I don't know, the third or fourth one where it was finally like, wait, wait, I got a spider going one. Like he doesn't know who that is. And then when Ganky's like,

it's coming from, I was like, drop everything. I'm doing it. Oh, good. That's awesome. I need to know what that's. No, honestly,

I want to give a major shout out to, I feel like all the little side quests, whether it's the flame or the mysterious stuff or the spider bots where I think that the, after you get a couple of them, you get in a little like radio chatter call and like give you some context. It really incentivized the story based stuff. Like you're talking about story has to be everywhere. Like that,

it made it feel like, oh, these collectibles are, are worth getting. And there weren't too many of each one of them. Yeah. And the other thing was like the writers having to write dialogue for both miles. Which is such a cool thing. So like it's like double the work and, you know, and could be more sooner. It's, uh, it's, it's, it's a ton of work.

But I think that just having that little, when Genki chimes in with a little more information, you're like, okay, what's going on? What's going on? What's going on? So yeah, it's great. Staying on portals for a second. This is going off of the spider bot thing. I feel like one moment that I haven't talked to anybody about that completely blew my mind

and I didn't know how it was happening and I was just thrilled was the black cat fights. Yeah. I was waiting for you guys to bring that up. Zipping around through the portals like that is the power. By the way, where do you think we got that idea from? Portals. And that was Ratchet. I was like, I was like, I was like, I was like inspired me in comic about magic.

I was like that's right. Those magic exists. That's ratchet. I mean, like we saw what they were doing. we were like, we have to take advantage of this. Dude, the shot in like Antarctica or wherever the hell it was. It was like, this is, it was incredible. It was so thrilling and it reminded me of any of the best set pieces of like the uncharted

two train secrets. Like the way that I felt playing that stuff, it's like, I felt that. And it was the buildup to it of like this. Okay, wait, she's activated. Wait, they're over there. And as I was like, swinging to it. And I'm like, am I about to go into the sanctum? And then when I didn't, but it was.

And I'm like, oh my God. Yeah. We at one point talked about the sanctum going inside of it. It's just, it, it, it, it, it, it, We were like we want this chase. Did you ever talk about doc or a doctor stranger? A little bit, a little bit. But we, I think we were more intrigued for this, for this one to, I wanted the Miles Black Cat back and forth.

I thought that was, because like, we're like, well, if it's Peter and I'm like, we've seen Peter and Felicia together. Like we've seen them. Like, how fun it would it be to see her giving shit to Miles? Like, that's like, you know, it's like, I love when when they're fighting and Erica has this great line. where she's like, you really are, like, he's, he's really like being like the really, like, really nice Spider-Man. And she goes, you really are, you really are, you really are a Spider-Man. It's like, it is.

It's great. And it's just, she's a great black cat. I mean, it's just awesome. I mean, she steals every scene she's ends. And, yeah, but that was a, that was a fun. That was like, that's, that's when you're like, all right, this is really a Marvel. Like, we got, we got, we got portals going on. We got chasing black cat.

And it's just, and then, like, her jumping through the portals. to do takedowns and stuff like that. It was, yeah, it's really fun. Real quick, while we're talking about these Easter eggs, and if, you know, I love, I did, I'm having to see strange and I didn't see strange, but you get the Wong note. I was like, oh, that's pretty dope.

Was there any, did you kick around an Easter egg idea for Avengers? Because again, the tower's there, but there wasn't the, oh, they're on the West Coast this time. Yeah, um, we, we actually really didn't. It's because I, so you asked me about expectations and all stuff. That's the, that's a thing. the thing I worry about more is like, can you tease people and then they get really pissed if you don't execute on it? Like, so like if I do- Simbies are taking over the whole world,

but the Avengers aren't helping. Exactly. That kind of. So where's that balance too? Because I mean, you know, I mean, it is at some point there's like licenses, right? You know, and know that things like that. So like we try to find, um, by the way, did, did any? Did, yeah, you saw that. Um, did any of you guys go to the Wakanda embassy with Miles? I haven't yet now. Oh, well, you maybe you should. Small little Easter egg. That's all so. That's so sick. Just say. There's a small little Easter egg. But you got to be miles. You got to be miles. We got a little miles of conda action here. We got the Baxter building. I'm surprised at the seeming lack of Wolverine in this game. Oh, that guy.

Like was like what? Are there things that I potentially missed there or was there a decision to not do it? There was a decision not to do it. I think that, you know, I think I try to thinking about trying to make Spider-Man while also there's another, like I'm just trying to learn how to make Spider-Man or try to get Spider-Man off the ground while there's another Marvel thing. I'm trying to get, I think for us is like, hey, let's just let's let that team cook, you know, let them cook. Get out of their way.

And you let them make the game they want to make and, you know, doesn't, who knows what the future holds, but right now let's let's let's let them do their thing and that game's going to be great. This will sound like fishing, but I really just honestly don't remember. Has it been confirmed denied or just not mentioned if they're in the same universe? I mean, they are, they're all 1048. Okay. 1040. I think I got that right, but yeah.

It's sometimes why it's funny. I'm sitting there doing these things live. I'm like, okay, who is this? What did I say? I'm like, yeah, please sound like you know what you're talking about, Brian. Speaking of Wolverine, like have you guys, and obviously might not even to be able to say much about this, I'm sure Sony PR is loving this conversation right now. Have you thought beyond much about what's beyond Spiderman for you guys?

Like obviously Wolverine is coming through. But when we talk about insomnia, oftentimes we're talking about how insane it is that Insomac has had so many games for the PS5 already. Right? Like there's been remaster. There's been Miles Morales. It's been ripped apart. Now there's Spider-Man too.

Got all these games. Sounds like an S-tier studio to me. Just took my fucking joke. There's like, you know, we're approaching with Wolverine probably the fifth PS5 game. Like for you guys, thought about what's next? Yeah. I mean, we think we, you know, that's, I would say that's when you have a leader like

Ted Price who, who not only thinks about how, you know, us making games, but making sure that the company is taking care of, 100%. I mean, there's nobody I respect more trust than Ted. So I think that we're always looking for, I mean, there's not, I mean, I can't say or anything. But like, yeah, I mean, as a, as a, as a studio who's always making sure. to make sure that there's a plan in place that we're taking care of everybody. Of course, there's plans in place. But yeah, I mean, we make a lot of games.

I mean, guess what? First of these games are really hard to make. But like, the part of the thing is we want people to play them. So like we, you know, that's the motivation is let's get them out there, right? And I think the reason why we are able to make games, you know, I think is that we're always looking at our process. We're always looking at a production process. and we are not perfect at all.

Like, and I am by far not close to a perfect creative director, but we're honest with ourselves going, hey, what can we learn from Spider-Man 1 to Miles to Ratchet and now apply to Spider-Man 2? And then what are we going to be able to apply to, you know, Spider-Man 2 to our feature title? So I think that, that loop is what helps us get there. It's not the anything, but I think that's part of the thing.

But yeah, in terms of like, I think we're just, I think Ted is such a great leader. he's thinking three, five steps ahead. And then obviously working, you know, now being with PlayStation, you know, I'm sure they're thinking about it. But I'm probably talking about things are way above what I would have

you're responsible for. But Jen's fine. Yeah, I know. But I think that it's, I will tell you, as someone who has worked at the studio now for 15 years, never having to really worry about

that extra stuff that I know is reality for a lot of people, whether in gaming or not, is, I don't take it for granted ever. And that's why I think someone like me and the team in the PILA studio works so hard because we know how lucky and fortunate we are.

There we go. I want to take a hard turn going back to the story of Spider-Man. Something that I really loved about Spider-Man too is we talked to the side quest so much and I really do think that the core of this game is the side quest and the story's there. But overall, whether it's the side stuff or the main quest, I loved

the focus on rehabilitation as a theme that kind of was between both, I feel like everything that Miles had to deal with of going up against Martin, but then also dealing with Peter and his story with Harry and like dealing with like what that could all look like somebody that is dying. You know, and like how can we bring them back?

But then also applying the, the concept of a sickness and then helping somebody, but then also a concept of these villains, so many different villains that are trying to get better in very different ways. Like the moment where Tombstone shows up and he's just like working at Coney Island. Like there's so many things are not said. and so many things are explicitly said. But I just feel like that kind of being like the core

and especially the end scenes with Martin and Miles just being so damn impactful. You know, there's something that I'm glad. Thank you for that. It's a really big compliment. And I think that the thing that we've talked about since day one is, you know, obviously we want to deliver, you know, you look at the statue, right, you know, all 19 inches of it.

All 19 inches. I know. I say that. I'm trying to say something like really nice, I hope. we want to deliver that superhero fantasy. We want that, you know, Pete and Miles versus Venom and, you know, sprouting wings and going crazy and all that stuff, right? But for us, it's as important to deliver those relatable human stories.

And like, because I feel, and you probably feel the same way as like, you don't care about the stuff in the suit unless you care about the stuff outside the suit. And I think, like, that helps drive that stuff. and we our goal is to just make stories that like I will always say Black Panther I think is my favorite MCU movie because I think you could remove every single superhero thing from that movie and it's still a great story like I think you can remove all that just you know and I think that's what we look what are those you know and finding those things that are relatable that you can connect to like I'm sure at some point, whether you did it or not, you've asked yourself when you're senior high school, what am I going to do next?

I'm sure some people are like, well, I'm going to apply to college. That's probably going, you know, required you write an essay. And you've sat there going, what the hell do I write about? I don't sum myself up. Yeah, right? That's something you can identify. I am sure there are people who have lost somebody in their lives and going, how can I not, how can I move forward? Yeah.

Like Pete does, right? or does something, maybe not someone kills your father or a problem for your father's death, but someone does something terrible to you and how do you maybe not forgive them, but move on. Like, though, to me, those are relatable things. And also, like, even look at Harry. Harry's motivation is it's intrinsically good. He wants to heal the world.

He just does it in a really effed up way, right? He's going about it. But that's for us as, that's what we try to do. And that was one of the reasons we chose Harry for Venom was like we felt like the story that we were, the direction we were going, him being close. And then something I thought a lot about is Pete with the symbio. You know, I know in my life when something, I can think back when things have happened in my family where it's not directed toward me, but someone else is suffering, I almost take on. a different, like I almost lose myself in that process. And I kind of forget like, oh, no, it's this other person who's in trouble.

And Pete, when he's in the black suit, kind of loses himself after a while. He kind of loses why he, what his purpose was, was to get this thing off of him. And he, like, loses up to the addiction of the symbol, right? It's all these, like, oh, I call relatable, believable motivations that we, we want to inject. And that's how we, that's how we approach our story. Like, we spend, I think, we spend way more time on that. that stuff than we do on what villain is going to happen here at this spot. Like we just, that's because I feel like that's when you,

whether you read your favorite comic or seen your favorite movie, like that's the stuff we remember in those movies. Like to me, Black Panther will always be about when Tachala goes to the ancestral plane talks who's dad for the first time. Like I, that to me is, to me, is probably my favorite Marvel scene ever. Yeah. Personally to me, the Esther conversation,

I feel was earned in this game. And it was through moments like the high school flashback where I am experiencing it. And I'm like everything that I loved so much about Last of Us Left Behind of Riley and Ellie in the mall. Just walking around. And it is the gameplay that's the fun surprise gameplay moments that will pop up that are you're Spider-Man, but you're also not supposed to be at this moment. But also combined with the kind of like you're walking around getting like the lore of everything. And it's like you don't need to check every single interactable thing, but you want to because you want to hear the conversation. Like that to me, I feel like is the turning point in this game is pretty early on where I was like, oh, dang, like the story here, like they're going way deeper into this stuff.

Yeah, I always say you don't have to go really far to see to find things that can influence you because the PlayStation family makes so many good games and does so many things right. That you just go, well, load up last of us too. And when they go to the, is it the dinosaur, the dinosaur museum? Yeah, like like, you know, or load up rack. Ragnarok and check this. Like, I mean, the scene you referenced to the beginning with the wolf.

Yeah, Henry. I mean, I don't even, I couldn't even, I was like, I have a cat, I don't dog, and I'm like, oh my God,

I'm like, I'd be losing it. You don't have to go very far to get influenced. And I think you hopefully see some of that in our games. And then we bring the, and then,

but we put our insomnia, spin on it. Talk to me about the influence on Mary Jane missions. Oh, wait, Here we go. I've been waiting.

That was such a big hangout for so many people. You dropped it here, but immediately like, don't worry, you got a stun gun. I, I, it's,

the MJ missions. Where do I begin? I heard all the feedback. We heard all the feedback. Of course you did. And I will tell you, I felt like it was a cop out if we didn't have them. Yeah.

I felt like we were saying, okay, yep, everybody just wants to see, Spider-Man and whatever, like, who cares about the perspective of seeing the world from a non-superhero standpoint? I was like, whatever. And I said, no, we're going to, we're going to do it. We're going to, we're going to do it. We're going to, we're going to look at the criticisms and see what we can do right. And I think that it was really important to show that she is a capable hero in her own way.

For sure. And I feel like we level this up. And I'm really, really proud of the team, like, that nightmare, that mission where Pete's sleepwalking. Yeah. Like that, I remember, I just remember saying the goal here, I told the team, I go, just make people feel like she's really capable and she's going to help save Pete. And they just took that and ran with it and went like went crazy with it. Like Lindsay, Ben, Neil, like so many people worked on that. That's like three of many people that worked on that mission.

and to the point where we even put her playable at the beginning of the last mission. And I think that I just didn't want to take the easy way out. Because I think we could have not had her playable. And people would have been like, okay, that's fine. They got it. But I thought, again, the whole 360 experience of the universe, I felt like it was really important to prove that we could make them better. Some people might not like them.

I understand that. But also the other thing is like, she's supposed to. be a change of pace. She's supposed to be for 10, 15 minutes, just like everything can't be at a 10. Everything can't be at a 10. Finding those moments where we can slow things down or show them perspective, that's called

pacing. I do believe that. I'm not saying I'm right. I'm not saying like everything's perfect, but I do think that's important in our games. I mean, in a way, right, that's how you get to the anti-Venna moment, right? Yeah. You're talking about where you had those missions where you didn't have it. I swooped in and tried

to do a symbiateness, right? And it was like, fuck why this giant shows up and i can't even fucking fight him whatever i'm out of here yeah and so to get that and have that be that turn key and then have it ramp back up yeah interesting yeah i did like making mj scream though that was pretty cool very cool there's so many she originally wasn't supposed to be screen oh yeah she originally wasn't she we have a concept piece of concept art where um they're fighting she's just kind of more like a black and white and they were like well she has red hair yes the hair let's go why don't we do it's just do it and we what was that incredible yeah there was so many moments like that of the that it do i hope i'm i feel like i feel like i'm bragging i'm probably not okay you should be

bra i'll say you deserve to brag i don't want to come across like listen like i said like i'll if i say to where i just say it's we because it's a whole team that does this we are venom exactly what i was i'm bonded with the whole team yeah what i really enjoyed about the spider man two in particular is that any time i was like oh they're teasing something the result was going to be the thing that i expected or something even cooler and i feel like every single time that was the case. And I think the Mysterio stuff was a good example of that of like, I was like, this better culminate in a super cool fight. The Snow Glob fight, come on. Yeah. Such a great idea. But more than that, the, the introduction of the Mysterio stuff, it's like Miles's dream and he's this dope DJ.

Like that gameplay sequence. I'm like, this is so creative and such a good use of Mysterio as a character. And I, applying that to a video game. Like, it was just very, very cool. That's great. That was, the thing is I remember we started working on the game. And I think, it was a far from home way. I was like, oh, man, like the mysterious, like, oh, crap. Like, we got to compete with this. Like, that one hallucination sequence from the movie, I'm like, oh, my God. And then someone had the idea of the snow globe.

I'm like, oh, that's super cool. We could fight in the snow globe. I'm like, that's awesome. So, yeah, I'm glad it resonated because that's such a great character. You can do so many cool things. And the team from the DJ minigame all the way through, the challenges, the final boss fight, I'm really happy with it. And that's like, and again, like,

that's an example of maybe in Spider-Man won, you would have just done the challenges, and it would have been like, you know, whatever, but you get that like little piece of you're saving people, and then it culminates with this, oh, go back to the Mysterium and have this big boss fight. I don't know

if we would have done that in the first game. So hopefully it shows that we learned from our previous games. I mean, I think that's shown in spades, right? That's what I've always said while I think Miles was a better game than one and now why I think two is better than Miles, right? It's because I think you learn these lessons. And it should be.

And it should, I mean, by all intents and purposes, they should be getting better. We should be learning. We should be getting better at making Spider-Man experiences. And now I understand that the expectations get bigger and bigger and bigger and I don't, I don't know what the expectation of someone has in their head. But God damn it better be better than the last game. Like Miles should be better than Spider-Man. And Spider-Man 2 should be better than Miles.

I hope. Now, we all have favorite moments. Of course. favorite stories that like, oh, I might like this mild story better than the Spider-Man 1 or vice versa. But I do hope that people see an evolution and see that we are getting better and addressing things. Like, for example, like, boss fights was a huge focus for us, a big focus of like, how can we make them more challenging? How can we like, phase one is this? But phase two takes you somewhere else and does this and take advantage of the PS5 and like, you know,

start and sewer, then go to a chase and then go up a building and then back down and have it v. all seamless, that kind of, that was a big goal for us too. That is one thing I appreciated about this game. We're the boss fights. Oh, good. How the phases felt like, that's one thing I've been thinking a lot about when it comes to like playing all the Souls games.

I mean, you play in right? It's like the phase changes and how you make the first half the boss fight feel different from the second half. Yeah. I loved a lot of the transition. Oh, thank you. That was a big focus.

I mean, we had a boss team that said like, we, like, there, you know, you always, you know, when we started this game and then we probably start any sequel, you're like, okay, here are the things. Don't fuck up. up. Like, don't break. Don't break it. Like, don't screw up traversal. Like, it's really good.

Just add a couple things that people really will like. And then where are those areas we want to improve? Like, okay, let's make, let's inject more story and a sense of greater exploration discovery in the open world and the side content. Boss fights. How can we levels up in a sense of challenge? And like,

I mean, by the way, Eldon Ring is my second favorite game of all time, I will tell you. By the way, I'm not, I'm terrible at all those games. I'm terrible. But Eldon Ring, I could grind until I was strong enough to be good at him. And that world is just, it's incredible. Oh, my God. Holy cow.

What experience. Is that why you added a Perry? No, no. No, it wasn't. No, it wasn't. Good good way, though. But I think it was, and I knew, like, we're not making Eldon Ring level difficulty here or from software level difficulty.

But we wanted that, even like in a Zelda, like, hey, phase one, this happens. You got master. and now we're going to mix things up. And we wanted that across, like, there's a reason why venom sprouts his wings for when you fight miles. Now it's an, okay, you know his ground stuff, now you're going to see him in the air, right? And we took that philosophy across a lot of the laws.

I mean, the lizard file out phase one, phase two, phase three, four, five, six, seven, it just kept going. And like, by the end of it, when you're running up that building, this is insane, man. We're, we're running out of time here, which makes me very second.

I feel like we can talk about this forever. We are. You got to eat before you should go to do. And when you go to the other spoiler cast, don't do them as good. Okay. Do you guys have any final things you want to say? Or Brian, do you have anything you really want to get out? No, I'll let you guys.

I feel like I just keep talking. I have a last question. Yeah. How do you guys balance what you choose to show beforehand? Because one of the things that surprised me as I was playing was when I finally got to the PlayStation Showcase demo, right? Where it was U.S. symbiopeeter and the reveal of symbioteeter that we got at PlayStation showcase and doing all the stuff on the water.

And when I was playing it, I was like, oh, this is so cool. I'm all surprised by how late in the game this is happening compared to like, you know, it being our first glimpse of gameplay in that PlayStation showcase, was that a conversation and decision that you're a part of, and how do you guys get down to doing that? So I will tell you on this game, I actually didn't want to show anything. Like I was, I drove PR app, everybody crazy.

I'm like, I didn't even want to do a preview tour for the game. Like, I wanted to show nothing. I was like, blame him. But actually blame him, because I would quote Greg going, Greg is this going to say, like, we saw everything before the game. There's no surprises, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, whatever.

Like, he's going to do his thing, right? Yeah, exactly. You know, but I would have no shirt on it. Yeah, exactly. I think, but it was like, what's a, the real answer is like, okay, outside of like, that's not going to happen, Brian, you have to actually show this parts of the game.

What's a seven to 12 minute sequence that we can show that kind of highlights some, like, so you guys have things to talk about for an hour? Like, oh, we saw this and we saw that, we saw this, and then you have to speculate on things. I think that's, I mean, I'm not giving you trade secrets away. That's what you're doing. You want to get people excited about what's new, what's different.

So like, oh, we're going to show the black suit. We're going to show the symbiote abilities. We're going to show the Perry. We're going to show new finishers. Oh, we're going to show a hero switch. We're going to show the slingshot. We're going to show the wing suit. We're going to show the wind tunnels.

We're going to show the webline. We're going to show new gadgets. I'm going through the demo in my head. And it's like, what are all those new things that we can show that get people excited and anticipate? But I think we, I hope people feel like we showed less this time than we did on Spider-Man 1. Like, you know, it was a shorter campaign. But in terms of like when we started finally talking about the game. But it's just enough to get people excited, show, hey, there's new stuff.

And then get them, get you guys talking. I have two things. One, I want to pin you down, two just to thank you. So the first one, though, is like, and this is doubling back. I wanted to do it earlier, but the conversation kind of moved, right? I screw it up. No, you did great. You talk about setting expectations, right, and all these different things.

We talked a little bit about DLC, but then we also talked about Miles Morales, right, being standalone. Should people expect DLC for this game? Or is this, like, this is Spider-Man 2. And obviously, like you mentioned New Game Plus, yada, yada, yada, but like, or is it, like, how do you look at the future of Spider-Man 2? Nothing to talk about today. Okay.

That's the kind of my answer. Totally fair. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think right now it's the focus is let's let's get let's get that. Let's get that new game plus out right now. That's step one right now. I think and honestly,

I think that's all I can. Totally fair. No, no. That's all I can think about. Thank you for answering when you can when you can. Other comment, of course, is just a thank you for shirtless Spider-Man and shirtless Miles Morales.

Oh, yeah. Like not even as a joke. We haven't talked about that. It was one of those like, you know, a touchstone. I will never forget playing Spider-Man 1, 2018 in the apartment.

It's, Jen's already in bed. I'm sitting there in the dark playing. And I was like, I'm getting ready to go to bed. And then finally, it's, oh, this is, it's a Halloween party. And I knew that's where it was. And I was like, oh, in playing through and getting to it and in capturing it and like trying to process it and going to bed and thinking about it. And so, you know, months ago, years ago now, when we did get hit up and they're like, hey, you got to sign this thing.

And I'm like, do I have to sign a release for a character that is your character? But I don't know when I saw shirtless Peter and shirtless Miles, I was like, oh, that's going to. that's like, like, I, because it's part of like, you know, those photos you can take of New York. And I said, I go, you guys can do whatever you want. These guys have to be in here. It have to be in the game. And it was the thing of then. So we knew for a long time ago, oh, we're in the game.

Cool. And like, I was, I was wondering how it's going to be. And even then as soon as you did the preview thing, the IGN mentioned it, Tim texted. Like, it was like immediately. Yeah, the claxon was wrong. And so I was like, okay, cool. But to get to it in the game, hang out with it, then go into the menu and see it called kind of fan boys. And like, it was like, you guys went above and beyond. And I really like, we can't,

you know, repay you enough for that. Right. You're very welcome. We're very welcome. This goes back, I think, straight to 2015 in my game war with speech of like, I think of how fucked up it is that we have a internet level of celebrity, right? And every day to have fans and people tell us we're awesome and great and yada yada. But then people make video games and they, you know, are underground for five years working on something. And don't necessarily. Scarely get the positive feedback and don't know the whole thing. And like for you guys to still see us as being important enough to be in the game and be cool, like that's insane. Well, I think I think we all have a bond that we love these kind of games.

We love superheroes. And, you know, like, I mean, there's so much shitty things happening in the world. Let's have some fun. Let's let's smile a little bit. You know, like, let's celebrate. Let's celebrate being good people and having part of this. We're all in this amazing industry together, right? Like, you know, yeah, I work and I make video games.

You guys talk about them. Like, we're all in the same industry. We're all essentially a family, right? Like in one way, I mean, I'm probably sure we're a big dysfunctional family. But hey, it's a family, right? And I think that I just, I'm, I've, I've been part of this industry since the day I grew. I mean, even before I was writing my games, I was worked at GameStop. You know, I worked at GameStop.

It was called Software, et cetera, back then. Holy crap. I've, I've, it's such. a great industry with such amazing people. We should celebrate that and support each other and be and be positive. And I think you guys represent that. And I hope insomac represent that and place tape and the fact that we can come together and have fun like this and joke around.

And I'm really proud to be part of it. And we're so happy to have you guys in some way representing the game. I wish we could do more of that. I mean, you're free to do spin off. Yeah. Don't worry about it. No, available.

Real quick jumping off this. I want to say like, I, I love, obviously that moment was incredible seeing it, but I think it was such a great call in the game to not have it just be like iconic locations in New York this time, but instead have it be like community based moments and like more like fun. And that's, and that's one of a writers, Akshay kind of really took the lead on that and said like, hey, we're going to like New Yorkers as people. It's like it's like, it's like, like, I was just there this weekend. It's like, that place is like really, you got to be there to like really understand like that place is really freaking special. It's more than just like seeing that skyscraper here, seeing that. It's the culture that is there.

And I hope we, like some way did that well. I definitely think you did. And I also love it. And this is for people out there, we said something like this earlier in the show. But like you can go into the menus and for the kind of fanboy's thing. Like you can hear if you're playing as Miles, you hear Miles talk about it. If you switch out of it's Peter, he has different things to say. So there's a lot of fun lore stuff, whether it's the kind of fan boy short or just all the other things that like super fun to listen to,

the takes from both of the Spider-Men there. But I just real quick want to say when we did the, I didn't want to spoil this or talk about it when we did our preview. But now that we're hearing the spoiler cast, we did the Spider-Man 2 preview. I was down there. There was maybe like 100 people in this room.

Paris and Danny were, Danny Peña and Andrew all around me playing. We all have our own headsets on. I was just playing. And I was about to finish the demo. And I was like, oh, I saw a little photo op. I was like, eh, I'm going to do that. I want to extend this time as much as possible.

And I swing over. And I see these guys. And I literally threw my headphone off and like lost my shit. I was like, oh my God, to the point that like, screwed people like looked at me and like Danny, all them looking like what's going on. I was like, stop what you doing? Come look at this. Like it was such a fun freak out moment where like I had, I know that years ago that they got reached out to like, hey, maybe like like like sign off your likeness or whatever. But like we don't know what that's actually going to look like.

Yeah. For it to be a like main thing to do in the game was like incredibly. It's canon the real-life photo, right? Because the real-life photo is on the roof of the old studio. So it's like that is what's happening in the thing. It's bizarre. So, so cool. But again, let's close this out.

Go for it. I'm glad. I'm glad it made you guys happy. I think at a day, like, sometimes I'm like, you know, games are just to make people smile and have fun. And if that contributes to you guys, that's all that. If my Twitter feed is in text messages are any indication they are doing it, because it's so hard not to talk about it.

Oh, yeah. Time war. I'm like waiting to, like, tweet about it. Yeah. I'm waiting. Roger's working on a pretty amazing TikTok of it. That's great. Yeah.

And thank you for your support. I mean, you know, we know there's a lot of games to talk about and I appreciate it. And I, you know, I know we gave each other a lot of crap sometimes and, you know,

about things. But like, I know it comes from a really good place because you guys want the game to be good. And we want to deliver a great game. So I'm glad you guys enjoyed it. Well, congratulations to you. Thank you.

Congratulations to the team that might be listened to this. And hey, all the gamers out there. Congratulations to you. Congratulations to you. The best year ever a video game. Yeah, exactly. But yeah, Brian, thank you so much for hanging out with us.

We'll see you in a couple of years. Five years. See you guys.