Kinda Funny Gamescast: Video Game Podcast - The Last of Us Part 2 SPOILERCAST - Kinda Funny Gamescast Ep. 25

Episode Date: June 19, 2020

Tim, Greg, Blessing, and What's Good Game's Kristine Steimer give their FULL SPOILERS take of The Last of Us Part II. Game provided by PlayStation. FOLLOW KRISTINE STEIMER: https://twitter.com/Steimer https://www.youtube.com/WhatsGoodGames Time Stamps - 00:00:00 - Start! 00:03:30 - Spoilers! 01:34:56 - Post Show Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

What's up guys? Welcome back to the Kind of Funny Games cast. As always, I'm Tim Getty's joined by one of the coolest dudes in video games, Greg Miller. Hello, Timothy. It does me well to see you. It does me well to see you as well, sir. Now, why did they prioritize the nice camera for you? That's my question. Because I'm a fancy bitch. He lives closest to me. Oh, okay. Well, that's the lie, Kevin. I live closest to you. I was the one that was initiating this. I was the one that wanted the fancy stuff to begin with. And so now we've proven the concept that it can, work. But didn't Kevin prove that? Because Kevin had the test one. I feel like Kevin tested it. And then if we're rolling it out, maybe it should have gone to me or blessing.

I can drive to Tim's house right now and take it. I would appreciate that. That would be a good idea. Blessing at AOE Jr. The new face of video games, how are you doing? It does be well to be introduced by you, Tim. I forget what Greg said, but the same thing. The same thing.

Same thing. The same thing. And returning once again, week after week, you'll love to see it. Christine Stimer from What's Good Games. Hello. How are you? This is the talk I'm very excited about. Yeah.

Last week was the warm up. You know, last week, the review of Last of Us 2, which if you haven't seen and you're interested in spoiler-free thoughts on the game, definitely check that one out. You're not going to want to have anything to do with this until you beat Last of Us 2. That is for sure. We're going all in. There is a lot to spoil in this game. So this is like final warning times 1,000.

You should leave now. Come back later. Once you're done with it, though, definitely come back. This is going to be a fun one. We're going to talk about a lot of cool stuff. You can get the show every week right here on YouTube.com slash kind of funny games. You can watch it on roostatee.com.

You can also listen to it on podcast services. Just search for Kind of Funny Games cast. If you want to get it with an exclusive post show and add free, like our Patreon producers did, you can go to patreon.com slash Kind of Funny Games like Muhammad Muhammad, Connor Nolan, James Hastings, Sancho West Gaming, Julian, the gluten-free gamer, Delani Twining, Aaron, Bonilla, Jeffrey Long and Jesus Barrio.

Thank you all for your support. We appreciate you helping this show go on. I don't even want to waste any more time. Let's get right into it. Last of Us, part two, spoiler cast. Last warning to leave, go, go. Game provided by PlayStation. That's right, Greg Miller.

Hey, I need to be verbally shocking too as well, Kevin. Yeah, he needed to remind me of this that. That Sony did provide us with this game. And for that, we are very thankful because it was a very good game. Can I say one thing? I know people are watching this right now and they're like, all right, cool, it's spoilers. I don't care.

I don't care about this game. I wasn't going to play this game. Don't do that. Don't watch this until you play the game, period, until you roll credits on the game, period. This game's amazing. Yes. And I will say even beyond that,

now that we can actually talk about this, there's a lot of people out there, they're going to be like, oh, I already spoiled myself with the leak. The leak didn't spoil everything, ladies and gentlemen. The leak spoiled some things, but not everything. There's a whole lot of other stuff that was not spoiled at all.

funnily enough, I was spoiled and I didn't even realize it from the leak because it was such a vague spoiler that we'll talk about later. But I want to start it off, Stimer. Yeah. What are your thoughts on this game now that you can be unleashed to talk about it, spoiler-free? I mean, I still stand by everything that I said. And I think what I'm more excited to dig into today is talking about a lot of the symbolism in the game and then a lot of just the way that they've mirrored Abby and Ellie and their stories. their paths and how it all moves forward. So I don't know where we want to start, though.

So I'm letting you guys lead and I'll just like interject with my weird thoughts as it goes on. Well, I guess a good place to actually start then. And be, you know, last week we were kind of limited in what we could talk about. So I feel like we should at least start with talking about what we couldn't talk about before, which I think the major thing being there are some major deaths that happen early on. And then at the midgame point, there is a total switcheroo where you play. as a different character. And Greg, would you like to explain

what I'm referring to here? Of course. I mean, I think Stimer already hit the nail on the head. Just being able to say Abby and be able to talk about Abby, of course, performed by Laura Bailey. And yeah, the fact that they totally Metal Gear Solid to Raideness, right? Where it's this idea of, hey, holy shit. Like, we are going to go in here and make you play as the person you think is the villain at the start of this game.

I didn't see it coming. And I think even when you play the game and incredibly early on, we get control of Abby. We don't know who she is. We don't understand why we're taking control of her. We leave the lodge. We meet Owen,

he takes us. We see Jackson. You start to piece it together. And obviously, knowing that it's a Taylor Revenge, all of stuff, you start playing with it. But, you know,

God, this is so crazy. Because now we're in the deep end. You can say whatever you want. I've had to be so anything. Yeah, I still feel like I'm, like, being a little bit like guarded. So like, Joel,

for me, for me, you talk about spoilers, right, and what got ruined. For me, what I was told ahead of time was someone,

first off, screenshoted Joel dead in the ground and sent it to me as a tweet with the text written on it. Abby kills him with the golf club. And so I was like, okay,

cool. Somebody named Abby kills Joel at the end of the game. Like, we're going to go through this entire thing. We're going to play as Ellie. We're going to go through this entire game. Get to the end.

Joel will die. And then I think it was, on. It might have been... That would be a terrible story. Totally, right? And like, that's, but that's how small my brain is. That's how I rationalized what it was going to be.

But, and then I saw the screen name somewhere along the line that was, uh, Joel and Ellie Die. And so I was like, oh, Ellie Dies too. And so when I started the game and we started going and I took control of Abby and I was like, oh, this is heavy. Okay. I see. And then they run into Tommy and Joel.

I was like, oh, interesting. Are we about to play this whole game as Abby's our ally and she's in Jackson and at the very end and then it was like when that fucking moment happens dude when he when Tommy and him are in that room and they finally go oh yeah he should come down to us you're never I'm Tommy this is my brother and he goes hi I'm Joel and everyone in the room looks at him and he just goes you're all looking at me like you know us or something and and yeah he just goes that's because they do and she shotguns them I was like holy shit it's happening right now oh my god it's happening the for four hours three hours this game and I was like and I don't know what's

going to happen I don't know where we're about to go and so for that to happen us get set off on our thing and even the trajectory we were playing of and cut me off anytime you want him the trajectory we're playing of then you know the building building building and going to seattle as Ellie and going through the days and having those moments that just didn't click it with me at all that I was like oh yeah I heard Abby broke out and oh no Abby's gone over to the island and I was like oh this is interesting all this shit's happening with Abby off screen that's an interesting choice and then I kept thinking we were going to run into her in one of our missions and then to not have it happened, get to the theater, and then have Abby break into the theater. I was like,

what the fuck? And then it was the switch. And you picked up and I was like, oh, I'm playing a flashback to come back to the theater. And then you go in fucking Seattle day one. I was like, are you fucking kidding me? That to me is such a brilliant kind of subverting of our expectations of understanding the format of and pacing of Last of Us. Like we're all so used to the different seasons in Last of Us. So when we saw one of those come up, it like would symbolize that we're moving into a different part of this world, a different part of this game. And having this just be Seattle day one, day two. I remember when it was happening, I was like, this is kind of weird.

Like, where are they going to go with it? I feel like they're kind of like pigeonholding themselves into a place that, unless they go to a different location, then it just becomes like, Ohio, day one. It's like that doesn't seem like we're going to get anything interesting. So then when we did get the loop as from Ellie having day one, day two, day three to having Abby have day one, day three, it was like, oh my God, giving us that knowledge of, of the narrative of knowing that they are going to meet up at a certain point. Like you already know when it happens.

So you know it doesn't happen before that. So it's like that kind of like leaves you with the same thing that you're talking about Greg of expecting Joel to die at the end and he dies in the beginning. All of a sudden you're like, oh man, I thought I had an idea of this. I don't. And it kind of then flips it where it's like you know where it's going to end up. But you have that question of is it going to go on further after that once it does meet up. And the answer is yes.

It's crazy. Bless, what do you think? yeah I had pretty much the same journey as Greg where somebody had spelled it for me with just the words Joel dies. And so like that was the thing that I feel like I could have guessed, you know, if I really, if I really sat down and tried to predict what's going to happen in the last part too. And the way I kind of interpreted it was, yeah, like Joel's going to die at the end. All right, cool. Like that's the thing that's going to happen that I can expect. So yeah, when the thing happened at the lodge with Abby and when she cocked the gun and shot his leg, that's when I was like, oh, shoot. Like it's happening right now.

And that was like three hours in. And so when that happened, that was almost kind of a relief for me because I was like, cool. Like anything can happen in this game now. Like I'm past the point of where I know what's going to happen. And so that was kind of a cool relief for me to then experience the rest of the game, spoiler-free. But yeah, like even further than that, right, getting into the switchup, getting to play as Abby. I think the big thing for me that I've not been able to talk about on the podcast is I liked Abby's journey more than Ellie's journey in this game. by the time I was wrapping up Abby's story, I got to a point where I was like, man, I really

like where they took this character and I really like this character's motivations and I really like this character's relationships with other, with the other characters that surround her. Almost like, not even almost more than I like Ellie's currently. Ellie in the game. Did you feel that when there was the switch point though? Not, I mean, not not immediately. I mean, it did take some warming up to Abby's story. It probably wasn't until day two or three.

where she really started to get into it with Yara and Love. It was that story that kind of sold me on Abby Moore. And it was, it was Nottie Dog also selling me on the dichotomy of the two stories and the duality of the two stories. And kind of how to Greg's point that he's been making on podcasts for the last, I guess, seven years since the last was right? Saying that to Greg, Joel is the bad guy of this story. Right.

And me as a listener interpreting that as like, all right, yeah, I guess I could see what, with Greg saying here in terms of Joel being a bad guy. And even in fact, replaying the game and getting to the point where even I was like, oh yeah, like Joel is doing a lot of shitty things, especially in this winter chapter where he's, he's murdering people to get to Ellie.

And you understand why he's doing it. He's killing, he's killing hospital workers and you understand why he's doing it. But at the same time, like, yeah, he is a bad guy. For them to then take that and really sell it and say that, hey, no, yeah, Joel is a bad guy. And we're going to show you, show you the story to which he is the bad guy. And they really, like, I just actually right before the podcast, finished the part of the game where it is, you as Ellie, you go, you go into the aquarium, you, you, shoot Owen and Mel.

Mel, yes, you shoot Owen and Mel. And then you go back to the theater and Abby comes through and all that stuff goes down, right? Right after that, they do the flashback of Abby and her dad, and they go and save the zebra and all. stuff and the way in which that's so well mirrors Joel's relationship with Ellie and the in the way that that that within those let me say like five to ten minutes with both of those characters really sell you on the relationship right the relationship between abby and her dad and then quickly quickly show you taking taking that relationship away like you you get it off the bat and they do such a good job from there then building on that building on abby story building on why you should care about

this character, despite us as a player probably hating that character in the moment, despite us, like, despite this character taking away one of our favorite characters the last seven years, they do, they did a good job at least for me, really selling me on why that duality exists and why

both sides here are both evil and what that's, that cyclical nature of revenge and hate does. And that to me, that to me is like the biggest success of this game. The fact that they were able to do that, Millier's Solidity, that's a build your solid two thing have that switch up get me get me into that character and then make me go by the end of the make me go by the end of the game man i'm kind of more on abbey side than

i am on ellie's side you know for ellie as a character who i you know i've been i've loved for the last seven years like that's such a such a success for me in this game yeah it's a major success for me as well because when it when the shift happens in the middle like i was i kind of saw that coming that we were going to play as her especially with the timing of when it happened but as i was As I was doing, I was like, there's no way that they're going to, I know what they're trying to do. They're trying to make me sympathize with her and like her over Ellie. There's no way they can do it. Like, it's, there's, I don't even know why they're attempting this because it can't happen.

And it totally did. And like that to me is the major success of this game is that it, it like, it beat me. It won over me. Like, Stimer, what do you think in terms of the Ellie and Abby balance? I mean, I think it's, it was really smart. And one of the main themes of the game is just us versus them, which I think also. reflects to the title of the game in a way that I never had thought of before this chapter of it. So you as a character, like, yes, we've talked about Joel was never the hero. Joel was always

actually the antagonist, but we always felt like he was in us. And that's partly because we were playing him and we had his side of the story and we could relate to him. Same with Ellie. I would argue, like, even though Ellie was definitely more altruistic than Joel, she was never really a hero character either. She was willing to die for this, but that also wasn't really her choice. It was taken away. But they became us because we were playing as them.

Therefore, in our brains, we as the players made them part of our little tribe, right? So then I think it was really smart of them to go through, have this traumatic thing happen to one of us and then bring into the fold Abby and

slowly make her see her as one of us too, because she's in a she is a them at the beginning of the game when you go through and even when you start to play as her for that brief moment you have no idea who this person is you don't know what their intentions are where they've come from or anything about her and so she is you're just like why am i playing this person then i don't really know and like they're not even telling me her name until like 10 minutes in um so yeah so i thought it was absolutely brilliant to then bring her back and be like no she's not of them and here's why.

She's part of us and she is part of everything that this game has reflected so far. And like I, yeah, I talked with Greg a lot about that too. Yeah. And I think, again, I think, you know, you said it, Tim, in terms of the game's quality and maybe it's crowning achievement is the fact that we end up sympathizing with Abby. We end up, you know, from at least me, I can't speak to everybody, you know, loving Abby, caring for Abby. And I think, you know, you were asked about the switch. And for me, I wish. It wasn't, you know, we were playing in solitary confinement or whatever. It wasn't until

Christine texted me something or question or whatever. And I'd already beaten it. And she said, oh, yeah, and I'm journaling every night. And I was like, fuck, what a brilliant idea. Because I remember distinctly waking, I, you know, was playing through, playing through, playing through. And it seemed like we're, you know, building to this crescendo at the theater. And, you know, Abby pops up and then I get the flashback and I'm like oh God, cool, I'm going to find this out. I'm going to see what happens right now. And then we got into the next section and it did Seattle day one. And I remember being like, come on, come on.

And like, I remember waking up the next day and being like, this is the first day that I'm not excited to sit down and play. And it was that thing where I was in the shower thinking about it. And I was like, I get what they're doing. I know what they're doing. And I know they want me to go and play as Abby and walk a mile in her shoes and we're going to get to the end. and it's going to turn out that she wasn't a bad guy and bubble. And I was like, I don't need this. I remember legitimately thinking as I was getting ready and brush my teeth or whatever,

like this is I am legend, right? We're at the end in the short story writer, the novella where the vampires say to Will Smith's character, if you don't remember I am legend, but the book version of it. Like, no, no, no, like, we're not the monster. You're the one thing that's out killing all of us. We're the majority. You're the minority. You're the one taking us all down.

Like, you're the monster. You're the legend. And I was like, I get it. I get that that's where we're going to get that we're going to get to the end. And I've liked Abby, but Ellie's out there killing everybody. And I was like, and I remember distinctly playing, playing, playing. And it was when her and Lev have the moment on the bridge crossing to the skyscraper and fall into the pool. Where I was like, fuck, this is awesome.

Abby is so three-dimensional in her fear of heights here. You know what I mean? In terms of acting from Laura Bailey, the animation from Nottie Dog, let alone them falling. and then her and Lev having this moment of levity and bonding. And I was like, fuck, I really like her. I really like this. And then to go through it beat by beat by beat to get to that ending and finish the game, I'm in the same boat as I think it was blessing, right, of, yeah, I like Abby more in this game.

Like, I love that. I love Ellie, right? We love these characters. They're all fleshed out there, all these things. But the fact that we pick up on Abby's story at basically the end of Ellie's, right? Because they're the same narrative thread. They're the same thing. They're on the same journey.

There's different points. And so for me to have to play through the blind revenge that Ellie wanted, and this is what we've talked about in the reviews and we've talked about on PSI Love You and I've talked about on Game Explained, like sitting there and playing it, it was never the violence that was the turnoff to me. It was that, no, Ellie, this, why? You and Dina could be happy and like stay there. And even Tommy doesn't want you to go originally, right? Like, you don't need to do this.

This doesn't end happily if you go do this, but she keeps going. she's going you know we got to pick up and meet abby after she had done that and we find of course that it's completely a hollow victory there is no victory celebration for them when they're done right they're done and you know her and owen's entire story is basically Ellie and dinas right where it is that i am so obsessed with this mission to find my and kill Joel that i am not going to be able to stay here just for an afternoon with you in the aquarium and hang out and make out like kids like i need to go train. Like, you know what I mean? Like, Abby's physique is built to kill. Like, she is, she is literally has one thing going on. It's, and I, you know, when I looked at it and you're early on

we meet her and she's not, you know, yacked like she is. It was that thing. I'm like, oh, eventually she's going to fall in love with bodybuilding or something. And then it was like, oh, no, she's doing this to become a killer. She wants, she is committed to finding Joel. And you see that that that leaves her alone, right? To the point that you get to that end. And like, yeah, she realizes, when Owen tells her that Mel's pregnant, like, fuck. Like there's like, I was so committed to this. I missed out on that. And there's no way to reconcile those differences. And then we see Ellie do the exact same thing. For to be able to be with Abby through her narrative thread and have her have that

fucking amazing moment, right, where she grabs Yara, right? She goes, you are my people. It might have been Lev. I forget which. But you are my people. It was Lev. That is probably my favorite moment of the game because that did come after Yara's death where the wolves shot down Yara and Lev is like grieving and love is like your people did this and she grabs she grabs Yara and she is or she grabs love and it's like you are my people and that that was the moment for me where I was like shoot man like they did it like I can't believe they sold this so well in a way that made me really enjoy this character and and I remember you Greg you mentioned I think on PS I love you or it might have been games cast that you played the game

more than once like you you play through the game multiple times and when you said that I was actually surprised because of my reaction to both Abby and Ellie's story, both stories parallel to each other. Because for me, I couldn't imagine going back and playing Ellie's side of the story again. Like knowing that now the way I look at Ellie, especially within those first seven hours and within the last few hours of the game too, like seeing, seeing the, I guess the blind theory that she's indulging in and seeing the blind revenge.

So you understand why, right? You understand what Joel means to her. You understand why she feels like she needs to do this. But for me as a player, I was like, man, I don't know if I could do this again. I don't know if I could, by the time I got to the end of Abby's story, I was like, I don't want to play as Ellie anymore. Like, I don't want them to give me the controller back. And in fact, it even made those last like four hours of the game where you go back

after the farm and you go back in search of Abby. It made those hours of the game kind of difficult for me to play. And on PS Love You, I was alluding to this, right? not wanting to press square, not wanting to tap square in certain moments. That final showdown between Ellie and Abby, where they're in the water and Love is in the boat, and they're doing this fist fight, or I guess Ellie has a knife, but they're fighting hand-to-hand. I remember at certain points you would have the quick time event, and you would have to, like, try and stab Abby, and they wanted to tap square.

I died during that fight multiple times because I was like, I don't want to tap square. I don't want Ellie to win this fight. I would rather Abby win this fight because Ellie like not that I don't understand why Ellie's on this journey. Not that I think Ellie is like evil or anything like that. Just that right here in this moment, I can't necessarily side with Ellie because of what I've seen both these characters do and go through. And where Ellie's at in her journey versus where Abby is in her journey. Yeah, that was really interesting to me in a lot of different ways. I was with you blessing like I did not I did not want to do it I felt kind of physically ill

while doing it because like you're just seeing Abby bleed and you don't you understand why still Ellie has this drive but you can even tell she's starting to wane on it and you're like just let it fucking go like just leave it alone but she can't because she kind of has the weird flashback to Joel dead on the ground again but throughout that whole thing like the even the very beginning, I thought it was really interesting how they basically have Abby mirroring what Owen was saying about the scar. She says almost similar stuff in that conversation as Owen had relayed. Abby is now the one without the fight, right? Abby doesn't have it in her anymore. And Ellie is now looking down at her in the same position that Owen was in. And I was kind of hoping they would do a thing where

she just like let it go immediately, but it doesn't happen, right? So Abby doesn't get the same sort of treatment that Owen gave to that scar. And I just thought that that was like so interesting and so beautifully done. Like the dialogue and everything right there. Like Abby basically being like, I'm done here. I don't want to do it anymore. Like can we just chill? Also, I mean, at that point you have to imagine, I don't know how long she'd really been in that camp.

But she's very, she's physically a lot thinner. She's not obviously had the ability to train the way she did. Yeah. She's more of a broken part. I mean, she's still got some left in her, but she's been broken down a lot at this point. And I think she's finally realized, like, there's just, there's no end to it. And then, like, what benefit is there? There wasn't one.

And a lot of ways, Abby lost everything around her except for Lev. Love was the last thing she had. So when, and especially when Ellie takes the knife over to, like, force Abby to fight, that's when you're just like, oh, man. Ellie, come on. It's that moment, right? It's the moment where I think even if you're playing through this and you are, I don't want to say blind, but you think Ellie's right.

You think she has to die. She killed Joel. You feel like connection to Joel. You want to take on it. You get to that point. And I don't even think it's there that Abby's like over it. Abby's been over it for a while, right? Abby was over it when Leav was like, Abby don't.

Because I remember that I thought that was one of the like, you want to talk about like powerful and not creepy, but like stomach turning moments and like also like shocking moments. was when, you know, Ellie's there with like a broken arm in the theater and Abby grabs Dina and puts the knife and she goes, she's pregnant. And Abby goes good. And then I was like Abby and like stops her. You know what I mean? And then she's like, never let me see you again. And she walks off. I think I'm going to get back to the fight, right? I think that what they do so well here. And I don't know if you guys had it. because this is, because again, I had the quote unquote spoiler that Ellie dies in the game. So I go as I'm playing it and we leave that and we go to the farmhouse and we meet Jay J.J. And we

we see this life with Nina. My first reaction, because I'm a clown, of course, is like, I can't believe this. They're ending the last of us happily. Like this is going to be,

this journey is going to end on a positive note with everybody like, you know, Dina and Ellie getting exactly what they want. And so as it became, oh, well, you know, go out and get the stuffed animal and go do this.

I was prepared for Abby to surface and kill me. Because I thought, first off, the spoiler. But then also, I don't know if it was me just the spoiler, if it was me just thinking about this game. But it also put me into Ellie,

shoes in a way, right? Of like, she, you know, never let me see you again and she leaves, right? Is she really gone? Is she having the same PTSD kind of flashbacks I'm having? Is she coming to that decision that, you know, I let her go, but that was wrong and I have to come kill her? Like, is part of this that, you know, Ellie's new continued drive for revenge? Is it driven by the fact that she doesn't know, the boogeyman's out there? Someone is out there that, you know, killed your father figure, wants, wanted to kill you at one point, maybe does again. You've killed all their friends, are they on the same emotional journey you were for Joel? And so then to get to the end, I think, and have this hollow fight, right, where you get there. And even though we didn't

see Ellie training, right, you imagine mentally she was like, well, I know this person's tougher. I know I'm going to have to do this. I'm going to have to, you know, you get there and you find her crucified, right? Like emaciated. You bring her down off the pole. She's like, there's boats this way. She's helpful. She's nice. You're not nice, but she's helpful. And get to see the boat and has no intention of fighting you. And for then Ellie to make that flip, I think it'd become a villain in that moment at least, right? To cross that line of like, fight me, I will not fight you. You know, switchblade, left dies if you don't.

And then Abby's like, okay, like I know what I have to do. But even then, like, Abby is winning, right? And I grant this is how we're playing it. But she's slashing her with a switchblade. Abby's really not fighting back, even if she can to get to the upper hand of it. When you were, when we were both playing, you would beat it before I did, obviously, like a lot. And we were texting, you were being really good about not spoiling anything. But I would be asking questions.

You kept asking me, like, what do you think is going to happen? And I kept giving my thoughts. And this game is so unpredictable where it goes with or without leaks, especially when you have leaks that aren't factual information. Like you start making up a whole bunch of threads in your head. But for me, like going through it, I really thought that we were going to end this game, the flip of the first game, where the first game was you don't have a choice. Joel has to kill them.

I thought it was going to be a choice where it was going to come down to a one-on-one fight. And at some point, it was going to go from the quick time stuff to choose a character. and go between Jellie or Abby and like there would have been two endings and there's not a canon ending and that didn't happen and I'm actually pretty happy for it because I think that what they did was extremely powerful and it's the like the moment that Ellie leaves the farmhouse it is probably the most heartbreaking thing I've ever experienced in a video game for sure um but in many many forms of media where I was just like, no, please don't do this. Like this is such a bad decision.

I'm so happy for where you're at right now. We've accomplished so much. And bless you were just kind of alluding this too. I don't want to keep playing. I don't want to do this again. And I feel like once you get to Santa Monica, like you're going through. And I, yeah, Santa Barbara, I didn't enjoy that, that part at all. Like I didn't enjoy playing through it.

It kind of felt like it was just more of the same. And I was like, I played so much of this game. right now that I don't need this. But reflecting on it story-wise, I really like it because we keep talking about the duality between Abby and Ellie's storylines and like them going through in the cycle of hatred and all that stuff. I think that the Santa Barbara bit is kind of that for just Last of Us as a whole, the world that Last of Us is in where it's like no matter where you go, there's going

to be hunters. It's going to happen. It's going to be the same gameplay loop of life that you're going to go through where everything is dark and everything is nasty. Everyone wants revenge for something. And it's not just Ellie and Abby. Every character has their own storyline where they're the just one going out for revenge. And to get there and see Abby, one, because she has left, lost because they are left for dead.

And then to be saved by Ellie and then to have everything happened after that and Ellie to go back to the farmhouse and it'd be empty. It's just soul crushing. And I think, you know, I know Christine has. amazing notes on all the symbolism and all that stuff that was way too top level like college honors courses when she was telling me about it but for me like the way they I can't wait to have you know nil on next week and talk to him about creating this game and I want to know when did future days enter the fray and was that from the very beginning you know the the the song they all sing over and over again right the program song future days right because just those first song sorry

i'm sorry it's time where you cut out I said I didn't know that that was was the name of the song. Oh yeah. So the song, if I ever were to lose you, I'd surely lose myself is a pearl dance song. Today I learned. Yeah. And I you hear it the first time, right, in, you know, Joel's doing it and teaching it to Ellie and you're like, that's cool. Then when Ellie finds the guitar with Dina that first time and strums it and then

Dina's like, what that? She's like, oh, nothing. Then she plays aha, which we'll talk about later on because that was fucking insane as well. But then like for that song, to keep coming back of them playing it, let alone those lyrics, right, be the entire theme of this fucking game. And then I think, because originally right, it's Joel about Ellie if I was ever to lose you. It's Ellie playing it to be about Joel if she would ever lose him.

Obviously, it's, it's, you know, even though she never plays it or hears it, it's Abby and her dad. It's also Abby and Owen. Then Abby and Lev there at the end and why Ellie's pushed that way. But then for it to be Ellie and Dina, right? And it's an end on that fucking note. And not only end on that note, but have her not. her not be able to play the song because she had her two fingers bitten off.

You're like, holy fucking shit. Like, I mean, it's so, you want to talk, and this one I'm talking about in terms of this game being above and beyond games and then be this weird movie book thing all combined into one of just like this thread behind it,

unifying the entire thing and you finding something different every time she plays that song. And that last time being so fucking heartbreaking and so fucking like she walks away from it to all. You know what I mean? Like, I remember playing this game and she's in her journal and she's writing lyrics and she's drawing stuff and it's like happy stuff and then it'll be about Joel and it'll be

his eyes, you know, blacked out. And you can see her, you can see who Ellie wants to be. If Ellie didn't have this hanging over her that her life meant nothing because she got had the, you know, chance to save everybody robbed for her. And then if she didn't have to go on this revenge mission, you can see that she would be an artist. She would be a painter. She would be a, you know, a guitarist. And so when we come back to the farmhouse and we find out, fuck yeah, she's doing all that. And that's amazing, rad. And then at the end when she's literally, you know, I'd surely, lose myself. She has thirsted after this revenge. It did not get what she wanted. She has lost all of what defines Ellie as Ellie and she walks away from it all. That is what this game is and why it is

so heartbreaking of just like, who is she now? What is she going to do? And that bit to me, what you just said about it being more than a game. I love it because it also, that moment is an example of why this had to be a game. It's gameplay elements. You play that song every time that you're talking about there. And so it's like, when it first started, I was like, oh, this is a cute little thing just to give us something to do. But as it kept going, I was just like, oh, man, like they're really like making us do this. And it never felt annoying because it felt like we were part of a moment now. Like, it felt like it really, it felt more personal. It felt like we were playing the song. And then for the end, for you to be doing it and not be able to do because the fingers, it was so hard to deal with. And like,

we talked a little bit about this, Greg. And I'm sure we'll talk more. But I wish the game ended there. I really wish that it just, that she tried to play and it didn't play and then just cut to black because to me like that is the end of it it's like Ellie lost and she lost herself like that that is the end so you don't want the flashback the I think the flashback that happens after is extremely powerful because the the final final bit of the game is a flashback with Joel and Ellie like essentially reconciling like even though before starting the road to reconciliation exactly yeah and I just feel like I would have personally preferred that scene to be somewhere earlier even if it was just a couple scenes earlier or something.

But I just think that the imagery and gameplay elements and just overall, like, emotion of her trying to play the song and not being able to, what is just such a powerful endpoint. Yeah. And I think I was talking with, oh, go ahead, blessing. No, let's not really. Because I mean, I wanted a timer to get to a point we were talking about earlier and I know we're close to it. Well, no. So I was, yeah. So Greg and I were texting about this and about that particular flashback.

And I was like, well, my interpretation of it was a. she is, you know, doomed to walk alone, right? Or in like, and she's just wandering off into the wilderness. That flashback to me felt very purposeful in that place because it made her realize that even if she feels maybe she's done an unforgivable thing, if she was willing to forgive Joel, maybe Dina would be willing to forgive her. So in my interpretation of this, that indicates her to keep going, gives her hope. And so when she's walking off, in my head, I feel like she is walking off to go find Dina

and hopefully make amends and like get things back on track where they were because if she felt like Joel did this thing for me that I could never have imagined getting through but I was willing to try maybe that'll be the same thing for Gina. Yeah. Oh, go ahead. No, and that's powerful. And that's, you know, I think where you're left to have these conversations that will go over and over again.

And I can't wait to see Neil squirm out of it next week when I ask him specifically where the fuck she's going. And to like to piggyback off that, I think, I mean, again, I could be told, Neil could be like, absolutely not. She's not doing that. But in my head of what she is. She has to be also because the very end, so the title screen, the thing we haven't really talked about at the very beginning or through the entirety of the game is a boat. It's just a boat in gray, right? And then when you beat the game and it goes back, it's a boat on a beach.

It's Catalina Island. And so like indicating Abby made it, right? Abby and Love made it to Catalina. They made it to the fireflies. So I'm like, you wouldn't, if these two people, yeah. I thought that was Santa Barbara. Yeah, I thought that was, isn't the thing on the hill, the place they were kept building? Somebody else I was talking to the beat the game said it was Catalina.

I've never actually been to Catalina. So I'm pretty sure it was the same place that we left. That's what I thought too, but then they said it was Catalina. So then I got confused. So anyways. That would have been cool, though. Or would be cool. It's true.

Just indicate that they had maybe gone there. If I can chime in to your point. and something that you said that made me feel so stupid, Stimer, is that the game's all about going towards the light, right? I think whether it's Catalina Island or whether it is Santa Barbara, I think the fact that all of a sudden

the fog and the gray is gone and it's a nice, sunny beach thing, means that here's your happy ending, or not happy, but the clouds have parted, right? And you're no longer lost in that fog. Yeah, because there's so much with the way they've done the lighting in the game

and symbolism with it. And even that last fight, like, before you go into it, It's all like, it's still bright outside. It's still light. And then you kind of walk down to the beach and it becomes more muddied, right? It becomes more gray. It becomes more uncertain of what is going to happen here.

At the farm, the farm is bathed in warm, beautiful, bright light until you go into the barn and you have that weird moment in the dark, right? And you, like, wander back into there. And that's where the flashback happens. That's what takes her back. So both another like sort of mirroring quality of Abby and Ellie. is Abby is a firefly. Fireflies naturally, they have light in their butts.

Whereas, and Ellie is a moth, right? So Ellie is sort of more born in darkness searching for light, whereas I feel like Abby is more intrinsically light related. And so I feel like it's interesting having these two characters struggle to find it within themselves at various points in the story. and I think one of my key lines from the game because Greg I had agreed with you on the line of like Lev you are my people being one of them

the other one is when Abby and Owen are talking and she's like what happened to us and he says I guess we forgot to look for the light or something along those lines like but that's kind of what to me the whole game was about people forgetting to look for the light and instead going down this path of darkness that ultimately unravels them.

And I think that's something that I lost on my first playthrough. I don't even know how much I picked up on my second playthrough. But the fact that Owen isn't all in on being a wolf, right? And Abby is strictly for revenge, but then by the end falls out of it and kind of sees Isaac as a weirdo. Like you lose the fact that they are fireflies, right? From the first game, they are the people that, you know, some people call terrorists, but most people are calling the people who are actually out for good and we're trying to do good things.

like Abby and Owen are products of that. They were trying to do that. They were trying to be that. And they fell in with the wolves who are not that. The wolves on paper might seem like that, right? But then like, you know, Jesse and Ellie talk about it at length, right? Of like, man, these people are fucking crazy. They fire at you on sight.

They don't even try to. What if we have, what are we able to talk? What if we could in there? They just don't care. That's not what they're about, let alone waging a war on the scars, right? The seraphites after having a ceasefire and having a truce. like there's a whole bunch of stuff and I granted yes I know spoilers that I know a chat that yes the true set ended by this point but you know what I mean that they did have it at one point

peace is possible they just didn't want peace they don't care Isaac's thing is I'm just going to wipe them out it's easier that way what a brilliant move having a third faction too with the serratus and having to be such a unique group that has such unique beef with the wolves that never feels like a distraction from your story and especially once they add yara and lev it's like you're a immediately in and you're on their side. I said this last week in the review, but like, the seraphites are the creepiest enemies I've ever faced in a video game, the whistling, all that stuff, like the way that those missions go are always like just put me on edge and I loved that. The thing for me that makes this game, like above and beyond is the characters, just like

the first game, where it's not just Joel and Ellie in the first game, it's all the supporting characters. And this game has even more supporting characters that are, that I either love are interesting to me or eventually I loved. And that's why I think Last of Us Part 2 is so special because sure they flip it and it goes from Ellie to Abby but then all of a sudden there's this whole new cast of characters that you've kind of seen

in the first half but now you get to know them when it goes to Mel and Owen and all of them even down to what's the name Manny who is like the most unlikable person imaginable and by the end of it when he dies you're just like you're like dude I love Manning. I love Manning.

Yeah manning is great when you're in when when Joel dies, when he spits on her. When you're just like, fuck Abby and fuck Manny. Like the other guys are kind of like, oh, you're in the room. But it's like, fuck this guy. And when he dies, I'm just like, no, like my dude. But it's not even just the

speaking role. I mean, speaking rules isn't the right way to put it. It's not just the main groups, which I do absolutely love. Owen, I think is an awesome character. Owen is fantastic. But to me, it's just the named random bad guys that they kept talking about in all the preview events where they're like,

you're going to care when you kill people. And it's like that is such an easy thing to say. But it's like the, and I felt it just in the sense where, oh, this feels like a more real world when it's like, oh, Ryan, like Ryan's dead, whatever. It's like you kind of feel that as opposed to just, hey, there's a body.

But it was the moment where we see the Vita girl. And Gray, you were saying when you played day one of Abby, you were just like, I don't want to do this. And I was right there with you where it's just like, oh, what? And as like, when you finally get to the base and you go over and you see the Vita girl that was playing hotline and she's talking, she's like, hey, what's up, Abby?

I'm just like, oh my God, she's so identifiable, A, because we watched the state of play, so she was like way more in our mind. She gets that Vita moment, so it's like, they drew attention to her without her needing to be this like fleshed out character, but now they're fleshing her out. It's like retroactive

kind of gut pain of like, oh fuck, I did that. Yeah, I killed those people. And see, that too, me, it's really cool. That's kind of a conversation we're having very cryptically on PS Love You this week about, you know, having, having those unnamed characters that the more and more you get further into the game, the more and more of those kills feel guilty.

Like, the more and more you feel like you're doing a bad thing. And we're kind of having the back and forth in the debate. And this is the thing that was brought up in college review. And that's the thing that kind of sparked the discussion is for me, I kind of wish that there were some moments. Like, let's say the moment where Abby is infiltrating the theater. Part of me wished that you were the one that pulled the trigger on, dude, on what's his name?

The first thing I said to Greg, when we were playing this game, we played the first, when I was first playing the first couple hours, he was like, what do you think? And I was just like, oh my God, I can't believe they didn't make me kill Joel. Coming after the first game where it's like, you don't get the choice of what you get to do.

And for it being a video game, I really think it was a missed opportunity to not force the character to do that. I know that would piss off a lot of players, but I think that it really would have like took into that extra level, level. And I feel like they kind of like backed off a bit in a way that I was like, man, I really wish you did that. And I think I honestly, what is that? I said, I may have all just quit the game. They'd be like, no, I'm not for, for. For me, this game kind of mirrors Shadow Colossus in a way where spoilers for, like, very light spoilers for Shadow Colossus for Shadow Colossus, fast more 10 seconds. But Shadow Colossus is a

game where as the player, you go in pretty much blindly and you're killing like these gigantic creatures. And as a player, you're doing it because you're like, all right, this is a video game and these are the bad guys. And I got to save this, this lady who's asleep. And so I'm going to do what I want in order to like win the game. And by the end of the game, you kind of realize that like, hey, you're kind of in the wrong. You're kind of doing a bad thing. You're kind of bringing destruction and chaos on yourself in the world. Lastest part too, I think mirrors that same message and in a way I think it could have it's such a hard thing to balance because I think they could have driven it way more home and I feel like they're kind of going that direction with having the

named enemies and with the way the way in which things flip-flop and the ways in which thematically the game is it is a game about how yeah like senseless death and senseless violence is bad and you go down the cyclical cycle where as nanny dog right we're pointing back to game to our uncharted games and and kind of making this this merit this meta narrative about how yeah like getting getting away with killing 300 people in this game shouldn't that shouldn't leave without weight. That should have some kind of weight to it. And so for them to kind of,

for them to point that out and for them to do such a good job of, good job narratively of analyzing that and showing the back and forth and diving into those themes, I feel like allowing some of those, some of those named character kills to actually happen when you pull the trigger. Right. And granted, I don't, I wouldn't necessarily want it to have killed Owen and what her name was Mel, the pregnant lady.

Yeah, I wouldn't have wanted to kill Mel. I feel like that would have been a step too far as a player. But killing Owen, I'm saying. Yeah, but like, as a play, I don't want to kill pregnant lady. But, like, getting to kill Owen or being able to kill Jesse, right? Nora, right? Like, having those actual named character kills be in the hands of the player

in the way that Joel's kill of the doctor was in the hand of the player, I feel like that could have driven that point way home in a way that. for me would have felt way more weighty. See, I don't, I disagree. I don't think they should have. I think this is the way to do it for a couple of different reasons. Number one, I think gamifying those moments would make it for a large degree the torture porn so many people were worried about after that pair, you know, after the scene they released

of the serifites breaking Yarra's arm and, you know, about to hang Abby. I think that would have driven at home that that's what this is. Let alone from a storytelling perspective, I feel like they wouldn't have been as impactful because you could have fucked around or you could have come from different angle or you could have not done it the right way my example of how they do it and make it feel right and make it feel meaningful right is when you decide to kill nora and you don't do it really but you do hit square right you're walking up to her she's dying of cordyceps you could easily not do it but you are you they could cut away instead you do it and the next thing we see after right is

abby she or i'm sorry ellie shaking right and being like walking in and going i made her talk like we see we got to see her we first off set it up obviously in last episode was part one with Joel doing it. We get it early on last it was part two of Dina being like, why are these guys tied up? And she's like, oh, this is, this is definitely telling me. This is a tactic Joel told me about you make one of them talk. They pointed out if they don't agree, you kill them. And so it was something Joel told her about that she'd never done. So we make her across that line, even though we don't have to see how she made her talk. You know, I don't want to know either. I think coming out of that and seeing the

repercussions of it on Ellie are powerful. And I think having that moment taken away and given to a just a cutscene of you killing, even though I think the game does such a good job of not the traditional video game cutscene comes, everything, you know, hitches and you don't know what's going on. Like so many times I'd go into cutscenes and not realize I was in cutscenes right away. Like the transitions are there and I think they need to be there in that narrative structure we're talking where Nottie Dog is telling you a story and they do want it to happen a specific way and have you frame it a specific way so you understand what's going on, but it isn't necessarily torture born.

Hmm. We have to still see it. It's still torture porn. Like, you don't interact with porn. You know what I mean? Sure. I mean, because not the way you watch it.

I guess that's true. Yeah. But I think you just get into it like, oh, am I going to use the flame thrower? Am I going to use this grenade? They take away those options. Suddenly it's not true gameplay.

But it doesn't need to be, but even if it was just you pulling the trigger, even if it was more of a, you know, the boss and metal gear solid type thing. Like, it literally just the pressing square. Just like the reticle is already there. You don't get to choose your, weapon or whatever they limit it.

You're the one that needs to do it for the game to move on. Like, I feel like there's a couple instances in this game that I really would have liked to see that because I think it would have made it. Stand out as a video game, not just a dope story. Yeah, but I feel like that at the end, that was the end fight, right? The end fight is that. And like, I'm glad that that did not exist for more than that because I wouldn't

have wanted to do it. I feel like it's, and that's probably why they didn't, to be honest, is like, they need to keep the story moving. And they know that the more that you, interject something like that in there where you know the player probably doesn't really necessarily want to do it that's just a stopping point for somebody and like so in order to keep somebody moving throughout the end it's like that remove the gates but i feel like we haven't talked about the most heartbreaking person it's not a person thing you kill which is alice but before you do that let me tell

you about our sponsors hey we all shop online right a lot but did you know you can make online shopping even better you can with honey honey is the free on shopping tool that saves you money online. Honey automatically finds the best promo codes and applies them to your cart, which makes online shopping finally feel as easy as it's supposed to be. I'm speaking for Kevin and I'm speaking for Tim right now. They told me about Honey before we even got sponsored by them because they use this service all the time to save both themselves personally and our business thousands of dollars a year, which I like because when Kevin has to buy equipment and stuff like that, he always looks for the best deal and Honey helps him do that.

Here is how it works. Imagine you're shopping on one of your favorite sites like Target or Sephora or Macy's or Lillen or DoorDash or Walmart, etc. You get the picture. When you check out, this little box drops down and all you have to do is click Apply Codes. You wait a few seconds for it to scan every promo code on the internet and boom, watch the price drop. Honey has found it's over 17 million members, over $2 billion in savings. Did you know Honey sports over 30,000 stores online and adding even more everyday users. love honey, and that's why it has

over 100,000, five-star reviews on the Google Chrome store. Not using honey is literally passing up free money. It's free to use and installs in just a few seconds. Plus, it's now part of the PayPal family. Again, one more time. It's now part of the PayPal family, which is great.

Get honey for free at joinhoney.com slash kinda. That's joinhoney.com slash kinda. Next up, we have ExpressVPN. Listen, let's break it now, ladies. No, we've all looked at things online before that we don't want others to see. Of course, in this episode, we were talking about, well, you guys can defer from

yourself what we were talking about. We were talking about a few things that maybe you don't want some of your significant others to know you've been searching late at night when they go to bed. That's where ExpressVPN comes in. I know most of you probably thinking, why don't you just use incognito mode? Let me tell you something, incognito mode does not hide your activity. It doesn't matter what mode you use or how many times you clear your browser history. Your internet service provider can still see every single website.

you've ever visited. That's scary. That's very scary. That's why even when I'm at home, I never go online without ExpressVPN. It doesn't matter if you get your, where you get your internet from. It's Verizon or Comcast,

whatever your local ISP offerings is. ISPs in the United States can legally sell your information to add companies. ExpressVPN is an app that rerouted your internet connection through their secure servers so your ISP can't see the sites you visit. You go on an amateur alert like we were talking about earlier, which is what I was alluding to at the first paragraph. I'll just say it right now.

If you're going to places like that and you don't want people to know you're doing that, well, ExpressVPN is what we're talking about. This is the service you want to use. ExpressVPN also keeps all of your information secure by encrypting 100% of your data with the most powerful encryption available. Most of the time, I don't even realize I have ExpressVPN on. It runs seamlessly in the background and it's so easy to use. All you have to do is tap one button and boom, you are protected.

ExpressVPN is available on all of your devices, phones, computers, even your smart TV. So there's no excuses for you to not be. using it. I believe Tim's using it as well. And we used it, of course, the other week to watch what was the last chance, last dance, excuse me, which was the ESPN documentary that wasn't available on Netflix here. This is a phenomenal service. You absolutely should check it out. Protect your online activity today with ExpressVPN rated number one by CNET and Wired. Visit my exclusive link, expressvPN.com slash kind of funny. And you can get an extra three months free on a one-year package.

That's expressvpn.com slash kind of funny. ExpressVPN.com slash kind of funny to learn more. Now, back to the show. Get to Alice, Christine. Oh, I thought I was waiting for you to go. So I think that was, Alice is, you know, your furry friend, if you are Abby. And so I think for me, when you're going in as Ellie, the first round, you don't really, I mean, you kind of know these people, but you don't really know these people yet.

the dog comes at you. You've already killed probably a couple of dogs at this point. I was still slightly like, oh, well, bye dog, but I didn't really say that about it. But then when they go back into the flashbacks and you're back at the wolf camp and Mel's like, yeah, let me go check out Alice. And I was like, what? Go check out Alice. What is she talking about? And then you go down and like,

they have all the dog kennels and you play fetch with her and she's such a good girl. And you realize like, oh no, they just stabbed this dog. in the neck and like all he was trying to do is protect her family. Yeah, the fact that you play with her in the aquarium, the fact that when you come back to the base that you get, you know, you get rescued at the gas station and taken to the base.

And you, if you walk around, you can walk up to her cage there too. And she's like, oh, you know, it's okay. I'll get you out of here soon. It is like, oh, man, fuck. Oh, you motherfuckers. There were definitely some points in the game early on where I was playing as LA

where actually it was during the E3 demo, or not E3, the state of play demo moment. state of play, thank you. Yeah, where like it's after the Vita thing where you see a dog that's out with the people in the camp that you're making your way through. And I remember at a certain point, like seeing a dog and being like, that's a really cute dog. And I'm going to have to like kill that thing, aren't I? And then like, yeah, things progress. That's actually one of the ones where I'm like, all right, to Greg's point about like the game's balance between telling a good story, but then also trying not to be torture porn. That was one of the things where I was like,

all right, this is probably the closest this game gets to being in that torture porn area of, I don't want to do this. And I almost don't feel comfortable playing this game when you get, when you, when you introduce me to this dog and maybe play fetch with it. Yeah. That's the thing of like trying to get out of the dark side of this for a second. I think something that makes last of us special is the more lighthearted moments and the things that are like kind of just out of nowhere. And we saw a lot of it in the left behind DLC with that arcade bit. But this game has so many beautiful moments that we're going to talk about in a second.

But I just want to give a shout out to the environments you go through because they were so unexpected. The aquarium is beautiful and so cool. It's such a great idea to have such major set pieces go down. And to see it kind of like evolve over years, it feels like I think with the flashbacks and stuff is so interesting to see how it changes over time. And then the museum, when you go through it for Ellie's birthday and then the farmhouse. and even like how varied Seattle can be where you know one minute you are just kind of in these more like open field areas then you get in the city oh shit now you're at the convention center

where they throw packs yeah then oh now you're in the sewers now you're at the pier you're under the pierce wheel all the stuff it's like the game kept me so interested in what's it going to show me next where is it going to take me next uh let's talk about ellie's birthday for a minute though because that was such a special moment oh yeah so what do you want you I mean like yeah I think it's incredible it was you know it's what they do such a good job with these touchstones which you know I'll get back to later because I'm keeping notes on things I want to double back to but the reconciliation cutscene yeah of here it is what you remember from last of us part one and I think you know no matter what you thought of last of us part one which I would

assume you loved but I think you're always was that thing of like at least they're happy right they're doing happy happy happily ever after in some respect and so to see yeah joll and ellie being, you know, dad and daughter to see him push her into the water, her know how to swim, she pushes them back. And then, yeah, to get into the dinosaur exhibit and walk around, put the hat on the dinosaur and then put the hat on Joel trophy, if you want, you know, doing all these things and correcting him. And he's talking about Jurassic Park and Jurassic World. And it's like, or Jurassic Park, too. The second one, not as good. Yeah, exactly, right. And then for them to go through into the space

section, which I had totally forgotten, right. You know, it's, I, you know, I, you know, I played through the whole thing, obviously. I was like, that's great. And then going back and playing last of us part one again, in her being like, I would have been an astronaut. I'm like, holy fuck, they're paying off on things they said that I totally forgot about. And like, that is her thing. And she does love that and her freaking out. And then to go through and she's telling them all these space facts. And like, you actually get it for like this one, you know, extended scene of them being father and daughter. And like how many times, you know, when I've seen, you know, our friends who are dads or you know, my dad even like totally engaging. Like, well, tell me what you think's cool about him or

whatever. She just starts ranting and raving about astronauts in space and you're like, oh my God. And then to get into the shuttle, to put on the helmet, to play the tape and have the lights go, right? And that's what you're talking about like the left behind arcade moment where it was Ellie's eyes closed and all it being projected on our face, a beautiful moment here, you know, even better as all the dials come to life in the reflection of the helmet. And you get to go part of this and see how much they mean to each other. And then other moments that kind of took me by surprise were like Dina, I, loved Dina so much. I'm so happy that she didn't die that there was moments where it was like a little dicey but like she didn't die. It wasn't a revenge story about her girlfriend. Like a lot of the theories

we had for so long. We're just so off. I remember Greg originally like you thought Abby was Ellie's mom when the first trailer. Originally originally at the reveal if you remember I thought Joel was dead and that was correct. Right. And I was like that. He's ghost coming in. So fuck you. I was right. Yeah. Yeah. And then yes, I did wonder if the serified Abby scene was in fact her mother, but whatever yeah nobody just think that's fun i think that you know for the world that i feel does feel like it's predictable it's not like there's so many elements and characters that get to do and be interesting people starting the game off with dina being so fun so uh different than riley but i feel like we get that kind of more grown up version but they're still having fun with the snowball fights and

and all of that it's like oh my god i just believe me it so much and then uh for it to to kind of go on them go on their adventures together. The dialogue between Dina and Ellie is just like, I fucking love you guys. I want you to be happy. I love how Ellie is so insecure about it and feels that Dina's so out of her league because she's badass as fuck. It's so great.

And then for them to find the weed little place. Oh yeah, the weed stash. And to just fucking get high. I was like, let's go. And I have a theory that they just got so high that the rest of the game didn't happen. But, you know, maybe that's just. They're still on that.

They're still on it. just in another planet right now. Real quick. Real quick. While we're here, what was your reaction to smash bandy coot? Smash bandies coot, baby. Let's go. They find his porn stash and it's fantastic.

Let's go. That was such a fun moment. So much fun little naughty dog stuff as you go into the game. I love how many PS3s, the fat PS3s are everywhere because it was 2013. And everybody's got Drake. Everybody's gotten uncharted. Love to that. That's awesome.

Yeah. What about more moments like that, I want to give a shout out to the aquarium. So I think I'd mentioned on PS Love You or Gamescast about... Plus, you get it. You're on PSI Love You, X-O-XO every Tuesday. Yeah, every Tuesday. Every Tuesday morning, me and Greg, we talk about PlayStation. But I remember in the game, they made the reference of, hey, like, you know,

before everything went down, before the apocalypse, like, people used to, like, walk through here and just, like, look at fish and, like, and have a good time. And as they were talking about that, because they're in the aquarium specifically, I was having flashbacks to literally last year where me and my nephew and my sisters were walking through that same aquarium. And legit, like, that was one of the few moments in the game where I actually started tearing up. I actually started being like, oh my God, they did it. It's a zoo for fish. It's a zoo for fish. And that moment for me kind of reflects how well they did Seattle overall.

They did such a good job of fully realizing Seattle. like the Ferris wheel, you know, is a big thing, especially by the aquarium. The convention center was a pretty good poll. Like all the different Starbucks that weren't actually called Starbucks. It came up with what they were actually called, but it was like road in coffee or something like that. I appreciate that because there's hell of Starbucks in Seattle. The fact that the space needle ride is on their island. When they kept saying the island, the island, I was like, what are they going to Bellevue?

Like, what are they talking about? And then when you got there and they revealed it, I was like, oh, holy shit. It's just because of the flooding and because of the city left. its own devices in ruin, that this has changed the topography in a way that's crazy. And yeah, go ahead, Stambe. Just as somebody who grew up in Seattle, I was very confused.

I was like, Seattle is not an island again. Sucker Punch also very confused. I was like, what? Why would the space needle? I didn't actually think that it was flooding. In my head, I thought maybe the perspective was just off and like it looked closer than it was and then it was Bainbridge Island. But no, I don't know.

Maybe it was just flooding. It was weird. But I think it's, my interpretation right, a couple of years ago, remember there was the thing where everybody's like, the big one's not going to happen in San Francisco. It's going to happen in Seattle. And everything up into this coast would be just liquefied or whatever. I assumed that there had been an earthquake maybe in their world and that had done it.

But, you know, we're talking about all these different touches in stone and like touchstones for it. Like the aquarium being awesome, this ongoing argument with Owen that continues beyond his death about whether it was a seal or a sea lion. Like, like there's so many touches like that that if you want to go. through and find the letters. And like the fact that, you know, Abby is still writing to Owen, even though he's gone, like trying in telling, this is what you find on the boat, obviously,

in Santa Barbara, Zelle, talking to him about, you know, what is going on with him and Lev. Like, that's the level of characterization in this game. I think crushes in a way that you expect because it's not a dog and it's last of us, right? But to take that even a step further, and it's what you were talking about earlier about this supporting cast and how amazing they all are and how fleshed out they all are. And I think to the point that when we're talking about the wolves versus the scar, the seraphites, right? At first I was like, what is going on? Then you slowly realize, okay, wait, there's a thing going on here that has nothing to do with Ellie at all, like they're in their own thing. And then you see it evolve into a war. But then as

Abby to get to go through it and have these conversations with Lev that I think are so enlightening as to what's going on where he's like, you she's like, your people are, you know, crazy. He's like, hey, the killing didn't even start until our prophet died, right? At martyr point or martyr or whatever it is where the you know the the the truce ended or whatever like there's this whole rich backstory there that it wasn't until the martyr died that they took this into that we're going to kill everybody and get crazy and be in like you know she uh lev asked abby at one point like have you read her writings and she's like i've i've skimmed them or whatever and she's like i think they'd help and it's like holy or lev says he thinks they'd help or whatever you're like oh man

like that's fucking nuts that even to that level you're making me care about what the actual prophet was saying about seraphites and how that actually exactly where we're going at. Yeah, like how her words are being twisted in a way, like in a way that religion does. Like that's not an unrealistic thing. Obviously, it's happened all throughout history of, you know, my writing say this. And someone's like, oh, so you mean murder everyone? No.

No, that's actually not what I meant. But if the person is now dead, they can no longer speak. So, yeah. With the first game having, you know, Ishmael's story kind of be, I think one of the, not crowning achievements of the first game, but something that, thing very much stands out as good environmental storytelling. And I think a kind of a real touchstone of what makes last of us special. I think this game doesn't have that moment necessarily where it's one single story. But I think it does a really good job in the aquarium of having the family story

and Max with the boat and like the playroom and all that stuff. Like I was very invested in all that. And like I was really worried they were going to make me find a grown up Max and kill him. And I didn't want to have anything to do with that. But then also kind of, before you meet Lev and get a lot of the real backstory and meet on the beef between the different factions, getting like reading the different journals and things you find in the world, kind of talking about it and hearing about this Isaac guy. I think they dealt with Isaac very well where they treated him like an ishmael character for a very long time until he's revealed and he's used so sparingly,

but in such intelligent ways that he feels powerful, you know? And it's like I always kind of feared him. And also getting the actor they did for him. Jeffrey, right. Jim Gordon himself is awesome. Like that is such a crazy, like moment for me seeing it where I was just like, oh my God. Like, hey, they did that. Like that was a choice to make this character stand out.

And I think they did a really good job with him. Yeah. You know, it's that thing where I, you know, when we finally get introduced to Isaac and I'm like, wait, is that the guy from Westworld? It's like, oh, shit, I hope we get a lot more of him. And the fact that we don't, I think, does. does play into the mythos, does play into more of still wanting to know more about his rides and what was going on, whether we never get it, whether it's a comic, whether it's a novel, whether it's a DLC, whatever the hell. Like, I think all of that is awesome. And then the fact that he is taken out so quickly. And I think

that's another thing we haven't touched on in this is that I love that they establish early on, like no one is safe. And you don't, and when somebody does die, it is going to be quick, maybe. Yeah, I mean, you can be longer like a Nora death. But I mean, the way that, like, I was not expecting, expecting expecting after jesse came back and then was trying to convince me to go back to jackson and i'm like fine fuck dina's sick let's go to see him you know shot in the face two seconds later i wasn't expecting manny when we're like doing we're trying to get in that door and he steps away he's like all right i was like oh my god and then i wasn't expecting to dodge death like three times yeah tom he's the only one that's safe he's good i thought Tommy died multiple times me too and whenever he showed back up

i was like how are you still here dude like where are you Yeah, I texted Greg. I was like, wait, Tommy wasn't dead because, like, I was pretty sure. I thought she shot him in the head. But I guess she does, but it's like a grazing shot. So that's why when we come back, his face is kind of messed up. Got it. Yeah, I was just like, what on earth that that man?

He's the only one that has plot armor. Him and Ellie. They don't got it. Man. Yeah, it's just there's, there's so many moments that I feel like I'm never going to forget in this game. And like, I love it that even with Last of Us, one, there was so many. any like there's bits that stick with me but I think there's going to be a lot more with this and that's the other thing is this legitimately is two last of us ones and I feel like the quality never falters.

There are some bits that go on longer than I'd like from a gameplay perspective. I think that once you get to the seraphite island, it does feel just kind of drawn out as everything's burning and stuff, but I get it from a plot perspective. It's like it's one of those things where while I feel like the fun of it, like gameplay of it was kind of like dragging, the story was at an all time high where. I was very interested on there. Where's this going? How am I going to get back? Because I know that these are the final

moments before we get back to the point that we were waiting for, which Greg, I think you wanted to talk a little bit more about the reconciliation point. Oh, sure. Well, I mean, to your point right there, like, in me again, wishing I had journaled it. I remember that I was thinking that was going to be my criticism of it. And I know some people have it. I don't personally. But there would be pacing problems. Because I felt like LA story ramped up so great. And then it was this crash of now we're Abby again. We got to ramp it all the way

back up and then I thought of course we're building to that ending and then to have it to keep going was a different ball of wax that I think actually did it and then you know I'm going to combine a bunch of different things I've written down here the other thing was you know blessing saying like he couldn't imagine going back and replaying it right away or especially after or maybe ever after you know learning who abby and the wolves were for me it was probably like early on in the play through of abbey where I started meeting everybody that I was like fuck I can't wait to go back and replay this because I feel like on top of the fact that, you know, you just said that this is two last of us parts ones, right? Where I do understand more than ever when you finish this game,

what Neal meant when he was like, there's a reason we didn't call this last of us part two. This isn't a sequel. I'm sorry, this is a reason we didn't call this last of us two. There's a reason. This is part two. This is the same story. These are two halves. And I think do you see it. But then to see that like even in last was part two, there's two halves of that game. Having the context and knowledge I wanted to go back is Ellie for sure and see who the times I ran into Owen or the guy who's got the first scar that Ellie gave him when she slashed his face when they were killing Joel. To see how that all fit together and understand who they were was important to me. And what I noticed interestingly is that for pacing things, by Tim, for pacing,

the first time through, right, it was, man, I feel like this serified island thing is dragging a bit. Man, I feel like I've been here at the end, even going into Santa Barbara. I feel like I just want to get to Abby. I just wanted to get Abby. What's going on? On the second playthru, I was amazed at how fast those sections went. Because I think we were all building to something you knew was going to happen, whether on Serified Island, it was like, whatever's going to happen is going to happen, and I'm going back to the theater, and I want to see what's happening at the theater. How am I going to get back to the theater? And then for the end to be in Santa Barbara, I know we're coming down to to a conclusion with Abby. Let's just get to Abby and not deal with whoever these other enemies are

going to be. When you actually play again, knowing where those sections are going, they go a lot quicker. Not that that justifies your first play through you. You okay, Tim? New camera overheated. We'll have to take notes on that. You guys, so you guys all felt like the running through the village and burning felt long because even my first

play through, I did not feel that way. I was actually I'm sorry. No, no, I'm sorry. I don't know if I felt long as much as I wanted to be through it and not in a bad way. I wanted to get obviously to Leve and save Leve and then I wanted to see how we were going to get to the theater. I think that was more of it because like when you're going through and then it's like, all right, cool. It's, you know, you're talking to your are.

Like, how far is it? She's like, it's a hike. And then you get into like the corn, the rows of corn. And it's like, all right, I got to either sneak by these guys or kill like 19 guys just to get to the thing. Let's go. I did feel like there are quite a few areas of the game that felt long to me. That island being one of them. Like by the time I was in the boss fight with the serifite that was like the heavy serifite.

I'll the dude who face you fuck up and like grab his jaw yeah oh please don't rip his john half please don't rip his john half yeah by the time I got to that fight I was like all right how how necessary is this like I like and it was a fun fight for sure and that whole village on fire sequence was cool and I and I think to I think it was Tim who was saying this earlier but to the story right like the story I think is paced perfectly like I think all the story content content in their works but from a gameplay standpoint

for me there there are quite a few moments where I was like, I don't know there's enough here to justify this game being this long. Like, I keep, like, there are so many points where I was like, where I was feeling kind of fatigued as far as where the mechanics were and, and how long certain sections were, if that makes sense. You know, because I think the, I think the gameplay mechanics are amazing. I think the systems are awesome. I think all that stuff works perfectly. But at a certain point, I was just like, all right, cool. I guess I got it.

The cornfields, for example, right? Like, by the time I got to the cornfields, I was like, all right, cool. I guess I got to kill a bunch of more people to get to this place. That juxtaposed with the whole meeting point between Ellie and Abby kind of felt to me like it threw off the whole gameplay pacing, especially with having to restart towards the middle or feeling like you're having to restart towards the middle. Because story-wise, loved it, thought, you know,

having that disposition between the two characters, having that parallel storyline, awesome, cool, risky, but I think it worked from a story perspective. getting picking Abby up as a character and seeing the upgrade trees and wondering wondering to myself oh is this going to be

as long as Ellie section and then realizing that I'm picking up the notebooks or not the notebooks the magazines for the upgrades and seeing that I'm having the same kind of progression with the guns and all this stuff at a certain point I was like

I see what they're doing and like it's not ruining this experience for me whatsoever but I kind of don't want to have the same exact arc that I know that I just had with with Ellie from a gameplay perspective, if that makes sense. It does.

And I feel like I kind of got really scared, not early on, but I guess for consideration the whole game pretty early on. When Ellie and is trying to get through, get to the hospital, and it jumps out at her and she falls into the water and then she's in the sewer and the water's like pushing her back super far, I was like watching this and I was like, no. Like I don't want to have to go through more dark rooms with Clinton. and do all this shit.

Like I just want to get to the goddamn hospital. And so did that. Oh, yeah. But that's my thing is it's from a story perspective, a lot of stuff, it really works. And to my surprise, they changed the gameplay up for that after that. And I didn't ever feel what I was scared of. Like it kind of gave me what I wanted where I was like, you're changing it up a bit. It's not too long.

We're going to get there. Everything's going to be okay. That was kind of the section with the boat and all that stuff. I was like, I'm kind of more fine with that. And another example of that was later in the game with Abby. And this is different. It wasn't so much about pacing more just about kind of tropes and understanding video games. But when you're in the hospital as Abby, you're going through, scary is all shit.

The atmosphere of this place was absolutely insane. Oh, yeah. But you're going through the sound design. Like there's nuts, nuts of shit going on. And you hear the banging. The doors are locked. You're like, goddamn. Like, I know that there's infected in here.

And then the dialogue that she's saying and the things you're reading, you're like, this is a hospital. These guys have been in here a long time. Yeah, this is like Ground Zero. This is Ground Zero. We're about, and they've been here for decades at this point, we're about to see some crazy new shit. And I was like, oh, God, here we go. Here's the stuff I don't like about Resident Evil. It's going to be like some crazy-ass Tyrannosaurus Rex thing.

And somehow, this is a perfect meld of gameplay and story and character where it worked for me. This boss fight, having this big, the biggest infected we've seen so far. I was absolutely thrilled in the entire fight. I felt so terrified. I'm running like, it was that gameplay thing Greg keeps talking about about somehow you always have just enough ammo that when I took the final shots

and then it broke in half and now I'm facing two of them. I was like, God damn it. I'm so screwed. But then I made it. And it was just like, and I had to take a break. And it's like,

I'm very squeamish. That was being good something for me in that way where it's like it made me feel. Yeah. Yeah, that thing made me squeamish, man. And I loved it from a, this, this is a horror, uh, fucking monster that I'm going to have to kill. And, and, and the, I think the Resident Evil reference is like the perfect one, because it be, this thing taking place in, was it a parking garage or my, or did I, did it just

feel like a parking garage? You get into a parking garage because you have to get to the ambulance, remember? You start, yeah. There's like a connection to the hospital there. Yeah. There's so many elements in there that I was like, man, this is very Resident Evil, but I thought it worked. I didn't necessarily loved, love the gameplay of it because I did feel like at a certain point. The whole time I was just running away as I was collecting supplies and trying to kill this thing. But it as an added element to this larger world and this larger story and what this hospital is, I thought was absolutely fantastic. That and the face-off, like the actual fight between Ellie and Abby, I actually want to highlight

because I kind of have mixed feelings on how that played out from a, gameplay perspective. Because again, like, the confrontation on a story level, I think was super cool and super awesome. On a gameplay level, it reminded me so much of that winter fight from Last Plus One between Ellie and what's his name? David. Is that the, yeah, yeah, between Ellie and David.

As far as you having to be sneaky and you had to be. Oh, you mean the fight at the theater. At the theater, yes. Gotcha, my fault. Yeah, not the final fight. Yeah. I don't know if anybody else got that way. It reminded me of it, but I thought it was done correctly this time. Whereas the David fight, like in Last of Us part one, I thought was so video gamey of like,

okay, now I'm all like, crunched on the dishes and now he's coming to me. I know where you are. I was like, it's kind of, okay, this is a weird element to drop in. Whereas this one, it was a, I have to be sneaky because she can hear me. And like, it wasn't as in your face, I think, with some of the like, here's how we're going to get you kind of things. But it is definitely a change of pace. I understand.

Yeah. Yeah. That whole theater fight was so creepy. I remember when you first get to the theater and you like walk through the back and I always was like, oh, I hate this place. Like I love theaters in general. I'm a theater kid, but like, anytime she'd open that curtain, I'd be like, something's going to pop out.

Something's going down. And then, like, walking through the back there, I was always like, something is off about this place and I don't know what. And then that fight took place there. And I was like, ah, this is what this set piece is here for. And I feel it in my bones that it was there for something, but I didn't know what at the time. And just talking about set pieces, like,

how insane is it that this game rarely reuses the same? kind of locations and when it does they're totally different or they're varied in a way like the aquarium that almost feel like new places that don't feel like backtracking it feels like you want to rewalk through it all to see what's changed and how how it's like went down the the first game we praised a lot for how every room felt like it had unique art assets this game i don't understand on a technical level how they how they did this how was this game completed it's so to me on another level of just having so many unique elements that make every single car feel different than the other one in front of you and it doesn't need to. It just makes the world feel that much more real. yeah the aquarium back because that actually sparked like the light or not metaphor symbolism um

i remember like thinking about the aquarium and how well they did that because like threw out a lot of the game um especially if you're there with owen or you're just kind of chilling like it's a very bright like welcoming warm space you feel like you're safe there um and then when you go in as ellie obviously it's all dark and it's intense and you like i love that they were able to do both of those feelings in this same environment. Yeah. Greg, earlier you were talking about the aha moment.

Take on me. God. Like when it was like, at first you and you know, you pick up the guitar and this is, I mean at the very beginning of the game when they give it to you and you strum you're like, oh, okay,

this is an interesting. What am I doing with this? This is a weird mechanic to drop in. And then you, yeah, when you find it there and yeah, you play the start of future days, stop when Dina comes in because that's like a personal thing to you.

And then yeah. you remember that thing, you know, the beach or the barbecue or whatever it was. And like, yeah, she starts playing take on me. And like, it was, I have screenshots. Like that was when I was like, ding, just spamming the share button to grab stuff from that. Because it was just such a moment of just, Dina sits there. And once we, you know, go through the practicing part, LA's off. And it was, I just wanted to sit there as long as she wanted to play.

And it was, you know, I think we talked about it in the review of, you know, Steinro was great about bringing it up towards the end where we were talking about how, oh, it's dark and it's, you know, this and it's bitter. sweet and she's like there are happy moments in this and there are sweet and tender moments to this and like that was one of those like rays of sunshine that I just wanted to bask in and watch her play and like it was so unexpected and so weird and you know to be just caught off guard by it and to think of how beautiful that was and see again the artist that Ellie wants to be and it was trying to become and the things we all take for granted in terms of hobbies that she has but she can't get back to

because of this you know two now two you know rocks on her back kind of thing it was crazy. Yeah. Also, uh, Yara and Lev, I feel like we're not talking about enough. Like I think that they as characters and then kind of as, you know, the things that are pushing the gameplay along, I think that they, uh, really, really work and you believe in them as characters. And they're another example of the, okay, cool. If Joel has her Ellie, his Ellie, then, you know, Lev has Yara, Yara, Yara has Lev. Like, they're in this together and giving them to, um, Abby and then kind of having that, the horse patch of Lev is just so powerful and the, you know, the moment where like we are, like, we are us or whatever it was.

It's like, you're my people. You're my people. It's just so backed up because you've spent so much the right amount of time. It's not so much time. The right amount of time. Like I just love that this game somehow accomplishes character relationships that we really only got one of in the last game. But in this one, I feel like there's at least three to four different, maybe even five

defining relationships where it's like I cared and believed in them like even with jesse dina and ellie i love the nuance of that like i love that it never felt like a love triangle it felt like different separate relationships every which way that didn't feel like they were getting in the way of each other they just were about personal growth like i was saying this earlier like ellie kind of you know being intimidated by dina and jesse and dina's confidence and stuff it's like man Ellie is such a real girl. Like, she's such a real character. And we've seen her kind of grow up over the, over years of these flashbacks and stuff.

And to just have her and Jesse, Jesse being this awesome character too. Like, and with Dina, who we've already talked about, it's just so great. It's like, you don't want to pick sides and you don't need to. This game isn't about that. It's like, it is about the different unique relationships they have. And that's the thing about it, right? I think is that, again, where this game shines through more than most games, and I'm including the rest of Naughty Dogs catalog, right?

Like, these people that you run into, I think, for the most part, are incredibly well fleshed out and have backstories and lives. And their lives didn't start and stop when Ellie walked into the picture or Abby walked into the picture and we met them as a character. Right. Like, I think there's so much to that that a normal game. I think a great example, right, of how this game is different and how its storytelling is different. I remember when you, Tim, were like, giving me updates on where you were. and you're like, all right, me and you are about to go try to get Lev on the island. I'm guessing the woman in the paintings is their mom, right?

Like in like the actual martyr. And of course, she isn't. We never even get to meet their mom by the time we get there. Levs killed her. Like that, if that was a traditional video game and we were building up this person on paintings, yes, we were going to run into them no matter what. And like, so it makes sense that you would think that. Even for them to say they're going to go to your mom, you'd expect a showdown with their mom in some way.

I also thought just to be to be clear about that, it was, less that, I thought it was more like some symbolistic shit where it's like, I thought the mom had been dead, but it's just like the mom being at them and all that stuff was more of a religious thing. Sure, sure, sure. They were like turning on her because of that. But still, either way, it's like.

Either way, it plays what I'm saying, right? Of like they're, they introduce things and they're like, oh, you don't know this thing fully. You don't need to. You don't even, we're not even to get into it. And I think, you know, as much as we loved Henry and Sam from the first one or Bill from the first one, like, cool. Like, the question I want to build to, I guess, is like how, you know, the last

of us won spoiler cast when we were talking about that we talked a lot about how or you guys brought up like well this is kind of it it's got the zombie tropes in it of course you know what to me blah blah and i was like doesn't and you had to explain to me like not like the story but this but that and yada yada yada like do you feel this one in the way they use characters and the way they build get around that because again like this doesn't even feel for the most part like a zombie game right that's not what we're doing here i i think it's so beyond even that being in the conversation like this is not there's no zombie tropes here at all that all. I think that this, I mean, it's not about that. If there are, it's like, that's the surface level like stuff. I mean, I guess finding the giant, uh, bloater thing in the hospital. Like, sure, that is a resin evil. It's very true. Made that reference earlier, right? But it's like, that's not what this game is about. And I think that when you talk about the story and the beats of the plot of this game, I think that they are so unique. And I know that there's a lot of criticism or who would be surprised on the internet about the review so far and like people who don't know the full story and all that, um, about the, like, cycle of violence. and revenge and it's just like, oh, killing's bad. So we kill and we should know it's bad.

It's like it's not that simple though. It's about people. Yeah, it's like it's really the killing is just the thing that is done and like, you know, kind of outcome of all of this. But it really is about the personal relationships with these people and the love that they have or the hate that they have towards each other and how that can change over time or not change over time and how it's not always going to be the same, even if everything around them is always going to be the same. And to me, that story has never been told.

And it definitely has never been told in this way from this many perspectives equally, given the same amount of weight of who's right, who's wrong, where the wiggle room is there. It's very cool shit. Yeah, I think, I mean, for me, I still, I don't see tropy as bad by any means. I think you can make the argument that the idea of warring, surviving factions within a zombie apocalypse can be seen as tropy as. and especially when that is kind of what builds the whole narrative and what builds the back and forth between all the characters. I think you can make the argument there that that can be seen as tropey, but I also don't think that's bad. Like I think this story is probably the best case I've seen of that, like that exact idea, right?

Like the only other thing I kind of, I kind of jump to as far as that is the Walking Dead, Walking Dead Negan season, which I think we referenced before. And like, I think it was Tim that said like, yeah, that happened. and that costs so many people to be like, all right, cool. Like, I think I'm done with this show because this show's not really doing anything that is worthwhile. I think Lassas Part 2 does that stuff in a way that feels worthwhile because I think they lend validity to why these different factions are valid and why these different sides are fighting for pretty much ultimately the same thing, which is each other, and how that kind of spirals because that is a cyclical cycle. I guess that is that is a cycle. the one thing I will say to the whole Lev Yara and Serifite's thing is and I kind of understand why they don't do it because it might be too much but I wish at some point you got to play as a serafite because I feel like through Lara and Yev or through Yara and Lev they do such a good job they do such a good job of introducing you to this faction and make you understand that like oh yeah even within this faction that for us service level seems weird pretty objectively like in the ways in which they operate,

in the ways in which they scar their face, in the ways in which they do all these different things. Like, there is, there are still people there. There are still, there is still validity there. And even with, with Yara and Lev, they're kind of on the run from that faction. And so even through them, it's kind of hard to get an idea of, all right, what connects these people together?

I do wish they kind of explored that more because I think that would have made the three different group dynamic a little bit more interesting. but at the same time the game has to end at a certain point so I understand why they don't because that would be like a 35 hour game something I agree with you there a bit just because that would have been cool but I did really like the serifites like I've been saying like every element of who they are and the kind of bits of the game that you're you're facing off

against them like feel very different but once they introduce the idea of the sky bridges I was like holy shit like these motherfuckers don't just communicate differently they don't just dress differently and use different weapons and, you know, have different beliefs. They have a different form of transportation that's kind of scary and insane. And I remember, like, as we're trying to get to the Skybridge, I was like, what is this going to be? Is this going to be just like weird nets and stuff in the sky that they can't see because it's in the fog? Oh, yeah, that's exactly what it is. And I'm like, that is such a cool idea, especially there being these key buildings that are tall and you have to go up.

And there's certain routes you're supposed to take, but the Sarah fights know and no one else knows it. As you get higher, it starts going from just like infested and, you know, just like everything messed up to not cleaner, but there is like these kind of temple-esque rooms and like warning signs or like the maps almost of where to go. I was like, this is such great character building for the seraphites and for who they are as a group that they aren't just crazy people. It's, oh, they do have these beliefs. And here's why. We're not going to tell you everything. but we're going to tell you enough that there is a reason. Do you think we're going to play as, sorry, sorry to interrupt, Stimer.

Do you think we're going to play as Lev in Lastest Part 3, if there is a Last is Part 3? I think if there's another last of us, it'll be Last of Us 3. And I also, or I guess, shit, would you call Last of Us 3? You'd probably have to subtitle it something else, I guess. But I also hope they don't do it. Like, I mean, it's the same thing as I think, you know, Steinmer talked about it last time around, right, of like, I didn't want to last of us part two.

I didn't want to Zika Last of us. And that was not a right choice. If not a dog does, I'm sure it'll be fantastic. And Neil and Halley will have the story they want to tell or whatever. But right now, I feel like we've left everybody in such a state that again, at what point does it become the walking dead? What we're just talking about, right?

I get it. There's bad people everywhere. Everywhere we go, we're going to find a bad person. Happiness is hard to keep. Like, what story would they tell there? I don't know. Yeah. It's tough to think about it.

I agree that if they do tell the story, I believe it's going to be amazing because they really did knock this out of the park. I do think that we would at least play as Lev. I don't know if he'd be the main character for the whole game. But I actually, I don't think that going forward, we'd have one character for the game ever again. Even with the first one, we played as Joel and Ellie. But like, we played as Joel. You know, I think that it would still be kind of a mix between different characters.

I imagine Ellie would still be the primary. Although it could be some giant, like jump and it could be JJ. JJ. He was so cute. Oh yeah, that'd be awesome. He was the cutest little baby. I was just like pinch your cheeks. You got to go out at some point though, right?

You have to stop at some point and say it's done. You can't keep coming back to it because then it does, at what point doesn't lose its, I mean, what is JJ going to be doing, right? Like, he's going to be going out to live. Oh,

God. I don't know. I heard you go to my grandpa. I just feel like there could be a story to be told. Like, and it doesn't need, The last thing I want is a walking dead type thing, but it's like they could totally flip it on its head and then jump pretty far into the future where it's like enough good people have been found that it is kind of, you know, it's partially rebuilt already. And like things are a lot further.

And I know we've seen things like that. But I don't think we've ever seen them done well. And I imagine, I believe Nottie Dog could do that well. Sure. Any closing thoughts before we get to the post show. I still want to talk about this reconciliation thing. because I think it is powerful in so many different ways. And I think the one thing I was about to say,

no idea doesn't get credit for yet. And it's because no one's anybody able to talk about it is how well they hid the turn. Like I think it correct me if I'm wrong. Like for the spoilers that are out there, nobody knew you're going to play as Abby, right? That wasn't like something that was no, they did. Yeah, people knew. The spoilers people knew was that Joel dies,

Abby kills her early on and with a golf club. Yeah. Which, by the way, the only spoiler I got was that this is a golf game. That's it. And I was like, the fuck does that mean? And then the moment I happened, I was like, oh, you motherfucker. Don't do that.

That's so stupid. But it was that. And then you play as Abby for the second half of the game and that you kill Ellie at the end. But I think it's because they saw up to that fight. And it seems like you're going to kill Ellie. Gotcha. Okay, cool. The lengths to which they went to hide this were the press demo I did, which is Hillcrest, right?

Back in the day, remember where you go and you drop down. And it's what we saw in that, not the most recent state of, play, but the state of play that was part of, had a bunch of other games and showed it, right, of Joel grabbing you and going, you think I'd let you do this on your own? Like, for me, that's so established that, oh, I'm doing this game with Joel. And so then when we find out that, you know,

spoilers of Joel dying got leaked, it was like, oh, well, clearly he's going to die way late in the game because I've already played a big mission with him. We must be after Dina, he gets killed along the way, and then we, you know, maybe in the final fight to save her or something like that. I thought that was a really cool thing. In the same way that, you know, again, Kajima, you know,

showed the Metal Gear Solid two demo that came with Zone of the Enders, right? Like, was just us playing a snake on the tanker and we're all like, oh, we got this. We know what this game's going to be. For that game not to be that at all, for this game to, I think, have hidden it so well and everything and it's marketing in the way even that, you know, when you go back and watch the state of play

and a couple of other things like Ellie on horseback in the game is Ellie and Dina, but in the trailers, it's just Ellie walking or riding around. They did such a good job of up until getting leaked, everything, keeping it under wraps, right, and doing it. But the reconciliation thing, I think what I love about it is in the same breath, I was just talking about them, putting Joel there at the end of the Hillcrest demo.

And that same demo from when I played just the Dina section, which was us on patrol that eventually ended with the pot house stuff. Remember there's that thing where she's like, oh, I'm thinking about having a movie night with Joel. And Dina's like, oh, what kind of movie? I remember playing that, you know, months ago not having any context for the story. And be like, oh, that's awesome that, you know, they're still doing movie nights. and then getting to that moment on my second play-through or even reflecting after the first

to be like, holy shit, that was going to be the first time they had hung out in years, right? Like, you know what I mean? Like that when Ellie, when Ellie rides back to Salt Lake City and like, I'll come back to Jackson, but it's fucking over between us. Like you assume it's silent treatment the rest of the way until probably a few interjections here or there, but mainly the fight in the ballroom or the dance in the barn and then the aftermath of it. And so, well, even before then we see.

we do see that flashback that is after that where with Tommy teaching her how to shoot the gun, right? And it's like, no, she's, she's kind of forced to be with Joel. Yeah, but that's before she finds out. Is it? Yeah, that's before she, she knows something's wrong, but she doesn't know what's wrong. That's not them falling apart. Timeline-wise, the last flashback we get in the like years back is the Salt Lake City one, when she's like, I'll come back and that's fucking it.

The stuff had happened before where it was what we're building to, right? where they know something's wrong. Ellie's getting distant because she's growing up and can no longer live with this fact that, wait, he lied to me. He lied to me and my life's worth nothing. Then it's the payoff in Salt Lake City and coming back. And then not talking,

you assume until around the barn. And so like when I didn't remember early on, when Jen was watching me playing, she's like, all right, cool. Like she went to bed early and when I was like, where are you? And I'm like, I'm here, but like, I still haven't gotten that E3 cut scene.

I still haven't seen the barn like the barn dance. I'm like, maybe they're not doing it. Maybe that was just for promotion. I don't know. And so when we finally got there in the buildup to the end and you get the moment, she's like, I don't fucking need your help, Joel, or whatever it is. I forget exactly what the line is, but it's something that thing. He's like, okay, and he walks away.

I gasped. And Jen was like, what? And I'm like, that's the last thing she said to him. That's their last interaction. Holy fucking shit. And so to go through all the pain, all the grief and then to get to this moment where they have this, again, human father-daughter moment, right, of the human. He's crossed this line, but she loves him so much that she's willing to try.

She can't forgive him, but she's willing to try. And then to see Joel cry over that, right? Like, I was like, oh, my God, I needed that. And I thought it was a perfect punctuation to end Joel and Ellie's entire run of it and then start what, like, what we're talking about, whatever Ellie and Dean is is going to be. And, you know, Christine, you pointed out in text to me, and I totally didn't pick up on it. And that's why you're smarter than me and always have been. But when she's having all these flashbacks,

they're all dark and they're all horrible of Joel's death, right? And then she has that flashback in the water, right? That is the, and I'm talking about the PTSD quick flashes. She has the quick flash of Joel for the first time in our play through of Ellie, a positive flashback to him on the porch. And that's when she lets go, right? Because it seems like she's finally let go of this

and she can remember that moment of, I can't forgive you, but I'm willing to try. It's great stuff. It is great. This has been the spoiler cast for The Last of Us, part two. Stimer, where could people find you? They can find me over at What's Good Games. We have a show that comes out every Friday.

So you can go to what's goodgames. Or go to YouTube.com slash what's good games or Twitter.com slash what's good underscore games. And you'll find out of stuff. Got to love the underscore. Blessing Greg, obviously. Thank you very much for joining me today on this one. Yes. Can I do some shameless self-promotion?

I was about to lead you into that. Go for it. Go ahead. We're so good. We're so right there. I'm just about to say, but this is definitely not the last we're going to be talking about the last of us. We have so much cool stuff, stuff that I'm very excited to actually listen to myself, which includes. So, ladies and gentlemen, this is a kind of funny games cast publishing on the 19th, a Friday. The next week, we are having Neil Druckman, Ashley Johnson and Troy Baker. So Neil, of course, writer director, or co-writer director, Ashley Ellie and Troy Baker, Joel,

coming through to do a games cast. I don't know what we're going to call that. It's a spoiler cast as well. where all our questions are answered by the people who made the game, which will be great. That, like I said, is going live next week as a games cast. So, of course, patreon.com slash kind of funny games, ad free. Also, more importantly, get your questions in for the cast and for Neil to talk to them about it. Then, on top of that, here's what we're going to do. Me and Blessing have been talking on PSI Love You XOXO about wanting to do a spoiler cast with you,

the audience. The episode of PSI Love You XOXO, that will go live the week of the 29th, we're giving you a week to play through this game. and hopefully you've already done it by the time you're watching this, send in your questions to PSI, Love You, XO, XO, XO, your thoughts on a spoiler cast. We're going to do that. Looks like we're going to have Janet Garcia from IGN join us on that one as well. Stoked about that.

Nice. Then on top of that, the week of the 29th, I didn't know how to do this in a way that didn't want to tip our hand too much and all this other stuff, let alone you can't have too many voices on a podcast. So next week, Neil Ashley, Troy, then the week of the 29th, we have cool friends with Laura Bailey, just to do a spoiler-y thing with her about what Abby is all about and, of course, her career and everything else. But one where we can give her room to breathe on stepping into this role in this franchise.

Love it, man. Such cool stuff. We're about to do the post show for people on patreon.com slash kind of funny games. But for everyone else, we love and appreciate you.