Kinda Funny Gamescast: Video Game Podcast - The Legend of Zelda: Echoes of Wisdom Review - Kinda Funny Gamescast

Episode Date: September 25, 2024

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What's up everybody? Welcome to the kind of funny games cast for Wednesday, September 25th, 2024. I'm one of your host Greg Miller alongside Forbes 30 under 30, a.k.a. The second best baby blues in San Francisco, aka the married one at Tim Getty's. Let Tim host Greg. Hello, Tim. How are you? I'm doing fantastic. Yeah? Oh, yeah. About to talk about Nintendo. I love anytime we get to bust out this set. Nintendo wall. You don't see it enough. around here. And speaking of things you don't see enough around kind of funny. Of course,

you don't see enough of the executive reviews editor for games at IGN. Tom Marks. Hey, Tom. Hello. Thank you for joining us, sir. How are you? I'm so glad to be here. I'm great. I'm doing good. And I'm excited to talk about some Zelda. Exactly. Of course, the headline, I'm sure, gave it away, but maybe you wandered in. We are about to review the legend of Zelda, Echoes of Wisdom. Tom and Tim have played it. Both of you have beaten it. Yes. And I'm excited to hear all about it because of course Nintendo will only send us one code and I don't know what the problem is. But I digress. I'll remind you this is the kind of funny games cast each and every week a day. That's right. Each and every week day. Four, sometimes three best friends gather on this table.

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dot TV slash Kind of Funny Games and podcast services around the globe. Of course, some housekeeping for you. You've already gotten an episode of Kind of Funny Games Daily today running you through the nerdy news need to know about. And after this, there is going to be a stream where Mike continues his kingdom hearts to journey. Remember, we are kind of funny. An 11-person small business,

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If you're a kind of funny member, thank you to our Patreon producers, Carl Jacobs and Delaney Twining. Today, we're brought to you by Shady Raisin Hymns, but we'll tell you about that later. For now, let's start with top of it. of the show. Tots, tots, tats, tats, tats. It's just us, too. I know. It's just us and bears running around doing a million things today, so there's no taut graphic, but it's okay. It's okay. Of course, we said it. The legend of Zelda, echoes of wisdom, is upon us.

Released it is September 26th, 2024. It's developed by Grezo, the folks who did Lynx Awakening, and Nintendo's official synopsis reads, The people of Hyrule are being stolen away by strange riffs that have appeared throughout the kingdom. With a certain swordsman among the missing, it's up to Princess Zelda to save her kingdom in a brand new adventure in the Legend of Zelda series. I am incredibly interested to hear from both of you. Tom, you are the guest.

Talk to me about your top level review score. What do you think of Legend of Zelda Echoes of Wisdom? Yeah, so I really, really enjoyed it. I gave it a nine on the IGN scale, which now y'all are, I know, in line with that a little bit more because you were in the five point before. You're right there. Amazing. Yeah.

Yeah. So I gave to nine for amazing. I really loved it. It is this really, I mean, the thing that stood out to me, I think, bigger than anything else is that, you know, we got Princess Pete Showtime earlier this year. Yeah. Right. And now we get a Zelda led Zelda game. And I was sort of expecting it with this echo system to be a spin-offy sort of vibe.

And it just feels like the next 2D Zelda game. Really? It is the next 2D Zelda game to me. Awesome. Just with some different weird mechanics sort of on top of that. So that was super exciting. And I don't think any Zelda fan should skip it is the headline there. I love that. Timothy, do you agree?

I mean, I'm entirely in line with Tom here and what he's saying. I mean, it's a big deal. This is the first 2D Zelda game, first new 2D Zelda game. I mean, I guess first 2D Zelda game period in over 10 years. because Link Between Worlds was 2013. Obviously, this being the first Zelda-led Zelda game, very exciting. But another first here is this is Grezo's first Zelda game. This is the first from the ground-up actual new game made by Grezo.

They have worked with Nintendo for a very long time on the Ocreen of Time and Majores Mask ports, the 3D ports on 3DS that were incredible. And then the Link's Awakening remake that came out in 2019, obviously, that is very much the foundation of this game. But that being a very sizable difference, where Ocarina and Majora were essentially, I'd say more traditional remasters, that was very much a remake with a brand new art style

that I think is probably like the crown jewel of what this game even is, the new one and Link's Awakening. It is beautiful, a very diorama-based art style where every single shot of the game is from the same angle, which allows very unique lighting to occur. And just a very beautiful, beautiful art style that I'm very happy that they're going back to the well and kind of creating something new with. But I'm very, very excited that Grezo was given the opportunity to make a brand new game for the first time.

Sure. It gives me a lot of hope for a group like Blue Point that we always talk about on the PlayStation side where they get to make all these amazing ports and remasters. When they get their own idea. What's it going to look like? Oh, what's going to look like when they finally do get their chance? and to see Grezo finally get that chance and for it to be this good, I think is a very good sign

for the industry going forward. You talk about all those firsts. It's worth pointing out, Stephen Totilla reported earlier this week. Zelda echoes of wisdom doesn't just star Zelda. According to Nintendo, it's the first Zelda

to have a woman serve as a director on the game. Tomomi Sano served as the director on Nintendo's side for the Grezo developed game. So a whole bunch of good stuff happening there. Very cool. So, Tim, for people who don't know then, talk to me about what you're doing in the game because that is what's so different, correct?

Yes, the Legend of Zelda, echoes of wisdom is you're playing as Zelda and that comes with a different play style than what you're used to with Link in the different adventures we've had with him. Although having said that, to Tom's point earlier, like there are the core Zelda games, core 2D, core 3D,

but then there's also spin-off titles and there's some things that are kind of in between. And I echo what he's saying here about this really does feel like a core Zelda title. Like when you look at the DS games, Spirit Tracks and Phantom Hourglass, those are core Zelda titles that some could argue

are a spinoff because their gameplay is a little bit different. That's very much focused on using the stylist to control Link, but you're still doing very Zelda things. There's dungeons and the puzzles and the way that the game progresses is very similar to what we'd expect from a Zelda. In this, instead of a stylist, the difference is you are using what they call echoes, where you're essentially using your staff,

your tri-rod to mimic different elements in the world or enemies that you can then summon. So if you face off against an enemy, you're then able to, once you defeat them, mimic those enemies and summon them. And I have them fight for you as like... So that's how battle goes. Yeah, Zelda's not doing the actual fighting. She's not physically fighting herself. However, as we saw in a lot of the trailers and marketing materials leading into the release

of the game, there is one of the echoes is essentially a sword fighter. So you're able to become very similar to how Link functioned in Link's Awakening where you have your sword. And you're controlling the actual blow-to-blowers. Yes, you are then actually controlling. You become that for a limited time, though. It is a system based on a magic system where it's like when you activate the sword fighter mode, the countdown begins. And like you were very limited in how long you can stay in that mode.

So it's a bit more of a strategy thing about like what echoes are you going to put out there to fight the enemies and then you turn into sword fighter mode to kind of like go through a little faster. I didn't say my score though. I know you didn't. I go to Legend to Zelda. Echoes of wisdom. I would give the Legend of Zelda echoes of wisdom an 8.5 out of 10

you're saying great. Great. And I would not be angry with anybody giving it a 9. I feel like... Your news Tommy's not angry at you. Yeah, I'm not angry at you at all. I totally I think that there's... If we were on a scale that didn't include 0.5s,

I would be at a nine. I'm closer to a nine than to an eight, but I think that overall, I do see this as a great game. And my biggest reasoning for that is, I feel like it is consistently greats the entire time, but there aren't any moments that I'm like, that was amazing.

That was like such a highlight for me in The Legend of Zelda series. And again, I'm not complaining at all because I, there was on the similar side, not a moment that I was like, I don't like what I'm doing. I really enjoyed the game. Every moment that I was playing it,

I feel like the, puzzles are very creative. Simply having dungeons in a Zelda game is so nice. It's been a while since we've had something like that. And having music play the entire time is nice. Like I feel like you get so used to the Breath of the Wild and Tears of the Kingdom style, which obviously I love. But there's something awesome about your adventure being fueled by

amazing music. And Zelda's always been known for that. And this game is no slouch in that department at all. And throughout the entire adventure, I was glued to my seat playing this game on the Switch. Absolutely loved it. And I will say very surprised at how the game reminds me more of tears of the kingdom than it does Link's Awakening. Oh, wow, really?

Yeah, it's something I didn't expect from it. But I think it's a kind of beautiful melding of the different gameplay styles into something that you can clearly see the direction that Nintendo's trying to take Zelda as a franchise. And I'm here for it. Well, I wanted to know, Tom, what you found amazing. I still do. but now I want to know Tom, do you agree that it reminds you more of tears than it does Link's Awakening?

Well, so that's actually, yes, and that's actually kind of what I, this is nice, because it's sort of what I find amazing about it, is that this is, you know, one of the common, I reviewed Tears of Kingdom also. I gave that game at 10,

and I absolutely love the direction, Breath of the Wild and Tears of Kingdom took Zelda. I think it is really stunning stuff, but also I am of the camp that misses the dungeons and misses the, key item progression as you're going through a Zelda game. I think what Dears is doing is phenomenal, but it is also a different-ish thing than that.

And I think that Tim hit the nail on the head in that what astounds me about Echoes is that it has found a way to say, okay, what if we took Link to the Past? Really, it's closer to Link to the Past than it is Link's Awakening as well. And it's like, what if we took the Link to the Past style Zelda game, but then gave it the free form, problem solving and creativity of A Breath of the Wilder or a Tears of the Kingdom. And the way that it has figured out a way to fuse those two ideas is so cool to me because you have this arsenal of echoes that, you know, you're pulling out beds and rocks and weird things to solve these problems. But then also, they save certain special items or echoes for you to find specifically

in dungeons or specifically in caves off the beaten path. So you still get that feeling of like, okay, I finish this dungeon and now I have a new tool in my tool belt that I did not have before that I can go off and take and use to solve puzzles elsewhere. And I love that they've figured out a way to do that, to give you that breath of the wild freedom, but also structure it more like a traditional Zelda game. I think that they don't always do it perfectly. Like, it is still sort of an experiment to some degree. But, But yeah, it paints this picture of what Zelda could be going forward that really, really excites me. A question, Tom, you talk about this merging and being the dungeons giving you special things.

Are you able to go in any direction when you start this, or is it you have to go to this dungeon first to then go to X, Y, Z? The map is pretty open, yeah. You can pretty much just go. There's a lot of side stuff to do, a lot of side quests and secrets to find. So you can sort of just explore as you want. And then the story sort of similar to breath or tears puts a couple dots on your map and says, hey, go to these in the order you want to. And I won't spoil, you know, the specifics of all of that. But yeah, there's it's, it's, I'd say it's similar ish to tears or breath where the map is there.

Go ahead. But then here's the sort of story beats you're going to want to hit. And if you do that, you'll usually get some stuff that's useful in helping you explore the rest of the map. Gotta, yada. Question for, oh, sorry. Just piggyback off. Yeah, I found it to be like a really kind of beautiful blend between the,

here's the breath of the wild, here's all the fourth like dots on your map that you're going to with the old school into the past style design where it's like, hey, there's these, there's three dungeons you need to go to. And then there's more dungeons you need to go to. And it's like, whereas linked to the past felt a lot more like linear,

I feel like this, it does air more towards the open, go wherever you want. too, but it is all gated by story stuff, similar to Breath of the Wild, where you can't literally go anywhere because in order to do the next thing, you do need to do the story quest here, the story quest here, but you can kind of do them in different orders. And that reminded me of link between worlds that took the links of the past, but made it a lot more open. I actually feel like this is less open than link between worlds in terms of like how, how many choices you have to do things

in what order. But it never got in the way because this has a lot more side quests. And I feel the side quests are as high quality as any of the main quest. Okay, great. Everything I did in the game feels like it's at that same level of quality, which I was very impressed by. And I think that easily this is the most well-realized a 2D high role, Hyrol has ever been in terms of the characters and the different races that you meet in the different areas and the problems that they're going through and how you're helping them.

It felt like how the 3D games treat the characters. And I was very impressed with that. Yeah, you're definitely right, I think, especially because we'll link between worlds also, if I remember correctly, it's been so long since I played that game, but had that item rental system right, which did let you skip around a little bit more too. This doesn't quite do that sort of thing. But it also does have that Breath of the Wild sort of vibe of just constantly getting distracted, right, going to one place and then seeing something else and saying, oh, never mind,

I'm going to go check out what that is. And then you're suddenly on some side quest chain that you did never think. you were going to be on. It really does, it still has that aspect of it, which I, I agree. The side quest stuff can be really, like, there can be some really fun things in there. There are a whole little optional mini dungeons with their own bosses, right? Like, there's, there's some stuff to find. I was very impressed with the quantity of different side quest styles as well, and even main quest styles to the point that some of them get a little bit blurred. Where you're doing a side quest and all of a sudden it feels like, oh, it turned into a main

quest. And I don't know how much of that was by design of like, oh, no, you're actually just playing a main quest, but it was I thought very brilliantly implemented in a way that tricked me into always feeling whatever I was doing was like worth my time and pushing me creatively to like figure out the

puzzle solving because like at the core of the game that's what it is. They give you all the tools similar to Breath of the Wild and Tears the Kingdom at the very beginning of the game and the difference is like to Tom's point you are kind of collecting different echoes so some of their abilities might help you more later but there are ways to,

if you want to get on top of a tree, you can do that. And the moment that you get a bed and you get a trampoline, you're like, okay, I can now jump up this high. That means you can jump up that high anywhere in the world. So you can kind of, the game feels very well designed

to be quote unquote broken in the same way that Breath of Wild and Tears the Kingdom did where it's like, there's no way they're going to let me go over here this early. You can. My question. Every time I ran into a wall that I thought was like, okay, this is the thing that they're putting

that's an actual barrier, then within an hour I would find some echo that let me clear that wall. And I was like, oh, never, never mind. They, they're just gonna let me do whatever I want. So my question there, Tom, becomes, you're getting all these echoes. Does it ever get overwhelming?

Where it was, like, you're like, you're rolling through 30. You're like, oh, God, what am I? Yes. Oh, yeah. 100% yes. This is one of the definite drawbacks of this game is if you played tears and, had to go through that little single item menu bar trying to find the right item that you want to put on the end of your bow.

And it was like, man, this is annoying. I hope they fix us in the next Zelda game. They didn't. They just didn't. It is just as like you can sort your echoes by most used or last learned or, you know, point cost. That's all useful ways of sorting them. But you still just get this giant pile list that is in a single bar and it's annoying to find them. Right.

It's never so annoying that it makes the game not fun or it wildly distracts, but it is, yeah, it's not, they have not figured out a better solution for this. You could not have said it better. Like that is what it is where it's like, yeah, no, it's like it's definitely not great, but it's not bad enough that it gets in the way of the enjoyment. But there are going to be many, many times, not just a handful, many times that you're just like, I know exactly the thing I'm looking for. Why is it this hard? Like, why am I still going over to get to the same things that I'm always using? And it's like, oh, they do give you the option to have the most used or whatever. But your most use kind of change instance to instance, especially when you're in a dungeon,

I think it's a bit better because you know, all right, this is my load out essentially, right? But when you're traversing the world map, I feel like that's where it gets a little bit like, okay, got to go back and get this thing. Now I need this thing. And I think as you get through the game and you upgrade some of your. or at least get upgraded echoes that have the same function as earlier game ones, it gets better because you kind of like, all, I have the echo for jumping on things.

I now have the echo for fighting people. Like it becomes a bit less cumbersome. But yeah, that is something that I would love to see them kind of enhance. But it is very similar to Tears of the Kingdom and Breath of Wildware. There's not one way to solve a problem. So multiple times I'm going through my laundry list of echoes. And I'm like, I got to get,

I'm looking for this one. I know that I that helps me jump this way. But as I'm getting to it, I'm like, oh, I could use this to do that too. And I think that's so cool that like the game is so well designed that it there is not just one way to solve any puzzle of this game. And that is so impressive for the amount of puzzles in the game. Okay. Yeah, there's also there's also a lot of puzzles where they were really hard for me. And I was like, I just don't know how to do.

And then I would remember one echo from five hours. earlier and go, oh, they, this, and then that would sort of click. And so there were a lot of little aha moments where you, when you, as you're figuring out your own solution to each thing, because you have just a ton of, it's not just that you can do things anyway or a bunch of different ways. You have a bunch of different ways to approach things because there's also this sort of ultra hand style grabbing mechanic that you can pick things up and move them from afar. And that lets you manipulate the world in a, in a totally, on a different axis, right? And, So there's just a lot of different ways to think about puzzles and think about how you would solve things.

So yeah, it's just fun to experiment and try to figure those things out. I think these are some of the most enticing or engaging puzzle rooms I have gone through in a Zelda game before, for me at least. So a question I have, I understand getting the little sword man and I can use him and this other. How does, without that example, combat work? Is it that like there's very limited combat? Is it that time slows down and I drop the bed and I hop over the gun? That's what I can't envision. So yeah, no, there's not limited combat at all.

There is as much combat in this as there isn't any Zelda game. I'm going to say the bosses are as action combat focused as any 2D Zelda game. I would say at the very least. Maybe some of them move in different patterns to adapt to your kind of combat set. But the way it works is you are just mimicking the enemies. And they function the exact way that they do. So if the dude that you're mimicking is a big guy with an axe, your big guy with an axe goes out and starts axing the guys.

If it's a bat that has electricity, he flies around and does these same electric attacks that the bats do. And as you progress through the game, you're powering up the magic meter. I forget the name of it, but it's the thing that allows you to use the difference. Is it just energy? Oh, tries the game of the points. Yeah, I'm not sure there's like a nice name for that either. Yeah, it's just like you're leveling up your stuff. So eventually when you start, you can only use one echo at a time.

But later, you can use multiple echoes and then the echoes have different levels to them. So I'm just using numbers here. As an example, like let's say you have five energy, like five levels and certain echoes are going to be one and certain echoes are going to be five. So you can either use one five level echo to go out there or five. one level echoes or two one levels and one three level like and so you that's where I think the kind of strategy comes in but obviously the higher leveled ones are the more powerful ones with more like status abilities to freeze people or to burn people or whatever it is things like that but it the game is surprisingly combat focused I would say okay how engaging that combat is let me put

it this way I still prefer playing as link but I think that this game is very well designed around combat puzzles and all that that like I love what this game did but it's not going to replace it for me in terms of like the combat specifically okay Tom you said yeah I I fully agree right it's not and I say this is somebody who like in games like Diablo or certain board games like frost haven or gloomhaven for anybody who knows that stuff like I love summoner classes right so this this was really up my alley and I think until you get later in and I won't go into mechanical specifics for you know just saving spoilers for folks but until you get later in and you get a few more interesting echoes and a few more interesting

options, the combat is sort of just like fine because the enemies that you summon, like Tim said, they don't move any quicker than the actual versions of the enemies you're fighting, and those enemies are balanced to be a little slow so you can, you know, as a player, get around them. So there are a lot of moments in the early game where you summon a moblin with a sword, and it does that sort of NPC enemy wind-up animation and just waits to swing at the enemy for just a little too long. And it's just, it's just not thrilling, right?

It's not, it's not bad. It's just not like, it's not, as Tim said, it's not as fun as just swinging the sword yourself, which you can do, but under this restricted energy meter system that sort of makes you want to pick and choose when you use that. Yeah, so the combat is fine. It just doesn't feel like the, Tim, Tim's not wrong that there's just as much of it as usual, but it doesn't feel like the focus necessarily. found myself just running by a lot of enemies in this game because you just sort of don't need

to fight them all once you get the echoes of them. And, you know, take, take or leave that. It didn't drag down what I loved about the puzzle solving necessarily, but it's also not, it's not a highlight necessarily either. The puzzle solving is what draws me and gets me excited about this. So the fact that that what you're describing is fine. And there's a lot of it, man. Like I, it's interesting, man, because the, you know, there's dungeons in this game. Obviously, I was so surprised, though, at how many, not just dungeons, but dungeon-like things there were. And, again, I don't want to spoil anything specifically, but, like, the caves in this game are a lot more in depth than they have been in 2D Zelda. They remind me of the Tears of the Kingdom Caves where you, in comparison specifically to Breath of the Wild, where both the Wild caves, you go in and, like, maybe there's a treasure chest, but that's it.

tears of the kingdom caves for me felt a lot more like there was anytime i saw a cave it was worth going into because there there would be a boss in it or there would be a path to a different part of the map that i haven't seen like they felt like there was always something there even if it wasn't a treasure reward it was a rewarding experience and the caves in this remind me of that a lot too where going in it very rarely felt like you just go into the cave and there's just a single treasure chest they all feel like designed little experiences and with the amount of them i was just so take it aback. I just didn't expect to see that. And again, that goes to me thinking this is a lot more similar to the tiers type of gameplay and just design for Zelda than the top down 2D Zelda games. But it, I think that you're going to be very, very happy with the amount of puzzle things to do. Okay. Tom, before we get too far away from combat, my last real question there is, did you, when Paris came on and had previewed this coming out of Pax West, one of the things he had said, he admitted, obviously, he only played like an hour, an hour and a half,

whatever it was, that, you know, it's hard to wrap, but there wasn't like a, one echo he was using the whole time. Does that, in your opinion, Tom, stand the test of time

in what you played? Was there one where you're like, well, this is so O.P., I'm using it all the time in these puzzles slash combat? Combat evolves. Combat definitely

because you're unlocking these better versions of things and you're getting more points to summon more things and all that. Combat definitely shifted around for me. I had some favorites that I returned to, but it didn't feel like there was a one size fits all.

This is the OP thing that I'm just going to use forever now. I think by the end, I don't know, I would be, I'd be curious to hear if your most used one is not spoilery to my most used block by far the once I am, from once I unlocked it, kind of maybe a quarter of the way through the game or a third of the way through the game with the water block. I mean, yeah, once you get that, it's a game changer. But that's, that I think is by design. Like I feel like it's not

I would say that once There are certain key things that I would be shocked If the majority of people once they got those They don't use them Whether it's more traversal or for combat But I don't think that's bad I think that goes to what Tom was saying earlier Of with tears of the kingdom and Breath of the Wild

You start off with your kit In the beginning of the game and it doesn't upgrade Like sure some of your arrows and all the stuff Whatever but like you have the fucking god hand You have like the what you have is what you have for the game This while it doesn't doesn't have links to the past, you're getting a hook shot and you're getting like the more traditional Zelda upgrades.

It is in the echoes. So once you get a certain level, it almost feels like it's by design of like, oh, you got that echo and that functions as your way to jump one block higher or to attack in this way or that way. And I feel like, again, like they are giving you, okay, once you get the trampoline, yeah, that's a much better thing to use than a block, you know? Sure. But using them over and over, it doesn't feel like, oh, I'm just, this is OPM using it. It's like, oh, the design. of this games having you do that. Love it. Yeah, there's a, there's a floating tile, like a floor tile that you can hop on and it will fly over gaps. And that one I used a ton, right? Because before what I was doing was stacking beds sequentially on each other and then jumping, right? So yeah, I think those do take the place of key items a lot of the time. And there isn't, there is definitely not one that is

like the OP thing you're always going to be using, but there are ones that are super useful. at many points throughout the game. And I agree that is by design and does not feel, doesn't feel like a misbalance or anything. And it's also just cool to go later into, you know, you get to a new area and suddenly the way you're using that object

is recontextualized where maybe you can't use the water block because it's going to freeze in this section. And so suddenly you have to think about how you're using something else differently. Yeah. I have a big question. But before then I'll remind you, of course, about our big deal

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Tom, you're giving it a 9? Yeah. Tim, you're giving an 8.5. The one thing we didn't get to, I haven't heard, and I want to make sure is on the record. Timothy, how long did it take to beat? How long is this game? And I know mileage will vary. There's a lot of side quest, X, Y, and Z, but ballparking it.

It's an excellent question that I don't have a great answer to. Because this game does not track your time in it at all. And at least last I checked, my switch was still doing the thing of like, first played, whatever, it didn't tell me like how long I've played. But I can give a fairly accurate estimate. I think that this is a 15-hour little adventure for you. I, again, think that it is very, very well-paced and that I never was doing something that I wasn't enjoying. And I am interested in 100% of it. I am interested in to continue to play the game and then do the odds and ends that I didn't get to yet, even post-game.

So, yeah, I think it's a very perfectly sized adventure. Tom, is that track with you? Yeah. So it took me, I keep track because I was recording basically the entire game. So I could just go back and check, check my time codes. That's the only reason I know of this. It took me about 23 hours to finish. and that was with basically doing every side quest I found,

going after a lot of the collectibles I could find. I didn't 100% it, but I came, you know, probably 90-something percent, right? I did a lot. And so you can definitely beat this game

substantially quicker than 23 hours. I think 15 to 20 is probably a good ballpark for most people's runs. And it didn't feel, yeah, it felt, it felt perfectly sized. I'd agree. It doesn't it has a there's a lot to it

There's a lot to do I was constantly sort of amused and it also does comes nowhere near out staying its welcome And you know I love how absurdly large tears of the kingdom is but this isn't really trying to be that It's trying to be something a little bit more focused and a little bit smaller and and And I'm jumping off of that and some you earlier brought up super princess peach this game is not that or that's not what that game's called Pete's Showtime. This game is not that. This game is on such a different level than that. What does that mean, though?

In terms of quality? In terms of quality. In terms of quality and in terms of intense, I think that Pete Showtime was very much a baby's first Mario game. Like, Baby's first more action-focused, 2D platformer, 3D, whatever you want to call it, because it is kind of in the middle. But it is an introduction to a genre of like the action platformer.

and very simple game. Charming, but I feel like overall, in my opinion, it didn't live up to the expectations I have for a first-party Nintendo Switch title, especially for a Princess Peach game.

Zelda Echo Echoes of Wisdom could not be further from that. This is not Baby's First Zelda. This is a Zelda game. This is straight up a Legend of Zelda core title. I do think that it is, in some ways, maybe this will vary for others.

I feel like this game was the least I've ever gotten lost in a Zelda. And I don't know that that's good or bad. It's just a fact. You know what I mean? I feel like it was very respectful of my time. And I think maybe that goes to there wasn't a moment that I didn't enjoy. Like I always felt like, cool, just on to the next thing.

And I was adventuring throughout Hyrule in a way that felt rewarding to me constantly. But even playing through Link's Awakening the remake a couple of years ago, there were a couple of moments. I'm like, where I go now? Like, what is happening? and I think that there's that just a sign of great game design of they are telling me where to go but I also do think that some people might not love that because as open as this is

it is still a 2D Zelda game like the map doesn't function the same as a 3D Zelda game so you are a little bit more limited on where you can go and how you get there but at the end of the day for me that's a pro but I think it might might not be for everybody Tom was it a pro for you? Yeah well I think that

I definitely didn't mind that it's, you know, part of the reasons I didn't, I think I also didn't get lost is just because you can just sort of go where you want to go, right? And they telegraph very clearly where you should go for the story and then you can just wander beyond that. The other thing I'll say, though, is that it wasn't, it's not push over easy either, right? Like, it's not hard. I think I only died twice my entire playthrough, right? But some of the puzzles make you think, and some of the combat encounters, if you don't, if you weren't summoning the right things or aren't standing in the right place when they're attacking, they can be, they can challenge, right?

Not, again, not so much that it's this super hard game. But the hero, what is it called hero mode that they have in Zelda games where like hearts don't drop and you take more double damage or whatever. I'm pretty sure that's available from the very beginning. It is. And if you were looking for more of a challenge and wanted to just say, okay, you know what my healing is reduced the damage i take is reduced this could be a fun little game to to push you a little bit right and it's i guess that's to the point of tim was made of like

it's not baby's first Zelda game by any means but it's also not this hyper challenging thing it's gonna yeah it's not punishing definitely that's a good word for it so while it's not baby's first uh Zelda game and it's all the points that tom just made it's that's in reference to its difficulty and all that stuff i do think this is an excellent first entry point to the self-franchise. Like I feel like this is for anybody of any age. I do think that younger kids who maybe don't have the experience

with video games that much, this is going to be a great way for them to learn a lot of fairly advanced game mechanics and puzzle solving and all that in a way that like, yeah, it can challenge you, but I think all of the challenges in this game are capable

being overcome by any age. Like I do think that they're so well designed that there is an answer that is fairly obvious. And I feel like the most impressive thing is how stuck I would be on a puzzle and then once I realized the solution to be like, why didn't I think of that?

It's always the most obvious thing. And because they give you so many different ways to like kind of accomplish the obstacles in front of you, I feel like it is obviously the keep it simple, stupid answer. But I like that they allow you to make a complex answer if you want.

You know, like I do love that the majority of the puzzles can be solved with just put more beds on top of each other. You know what I mean? But like they, I think that that's good game design that that option's there for you. If you want that to be the solution, you want to just move on from this puzzle. But there's always a better answer.

And I think that they give you more than enough tools to find that answer. And once you figure it out once, like the time was saying earlier, you kind of can go back to that and be like, oh, I've been doing this to do that. Now there's this way better way. And once you realize that, you start stacking the different abilities

in a way that I think was very well implemented in terms of a nice progression throughout the game of not just challenge, but kind of a sense of growth as a character. Like you feel Zelda kind of like become this hero, which I think is really, really cool. And something that you get from Zelda games. And that's why I'm like, this is a Zelda game, man.

It came up way earlier when we were talking about it being a real Zelda game. And one of the things that came out was having these bosses, right, having these dungeon bosses out there. How to you, Tom, do they rank in terms of the pantheon of Zelda bosses? Are they memorable? Are they fun? Are they interesting? So this kind of ties back to what we were talking about with combat a little bit,

which is I think the designs and the way you interact with these bosses are really, really cool, like really good, good Zelda bosses and good designs. but because you're fighting them from afar or with this limited resource at certain moments where you're sort of hacking at them in quick bursts, the actual fighting them is not something I would put on a top tier Zelda boss list, but that's not a fault of the designs of the bosses. These are really cool. There's a water one kind of early on that I thought was like a really cool design

where you're dodging these tornado things that it's shooting at you, right? There are, they're very cleverly designed. Like, every part of this game feels like a Zelda team firing on all cylinders. It does not feel like Grezo's first time out designing a Zelda game from scratch, right? It, it all feels very

like what you would want from the next 2D Zelda. Okay. Yeah, I feel like a lot of the boss fights feel like they're less about constantly attacking, and they are a bit more about positioning of where you are to avoid the attacks because your move set does feel a bit more limited. So it is

you and I feel like in a lot of examples for the boss fights in this game in particular their attacks are faster than a lot of the normal enemy attacks and that's the difference is staying one step ahead of where their attack patterns are going to end up. So you're in the right position to then be ready

to go on the offensive either with your echoes or going into the swords swords master mode. But yeah, it's, I think the bosses in this, they're great. I just,

again, don't think that any of them are like particularly like stand out. But in presentation, they're awesome. Like I feel like they remind me of the Astrobot bosses in a lot of ways of like having very interesting phases that aren't the most challenging things ever,

but it always feels like you're doing it. You're doing something that's enjoyable. Like it's, it's cool and the music hidden in and like the way the title cards hit for the boss is like, this is Zelda. Like they're treated It reminded me of playing Ocarina of time

And in a couple places of just like It coming up being like Oh we're here at the boss. Let's go. Let's go. Let's go. Let's go. The other thing I want to double back to was And I'm going to misquote you here on this team But you said something to the effect that this is The most realized high rule in 2D

Am I misquoting you terribly? My question becomes on that How big is this high rule? Are you doubling back to a lot of the same things And running around in the same areas? I would say, that in my experience, I think this goes to the not getting lost or anything,

like there's not much backtracking in the game, you could, but I feel like the game pushes you to want to do all the things in each area, so maybe I'm just playing it in a bit more of like a completionist way, but like I was motivated and distracted, like Tom was saying, to do a lot of the side stuff. So once I'd get to a new

area, you kind of live in that area for a while, and like there's good amount of things to do in each of the different places, and again, I don't want to get to to, to, to spoilers or anything, but like, I was honestly thrilled with the locations in this game. And with how it shows so much love to the 2D and 3D eras of Zelda and blends them in a way that was very cool. And I think that the Zelda lore people are going to be a-in.

Bear it! Like there is so many cool things. I kind of jokingly said that this game almost feels like a Zelda multiple. multiverse the map specifically because there are areas of it that are literally frame by frame, if you will, recreations of link to the past map areas. But then also, there's a desert with a Garuda town in the southwest and there's a jungly rain, electricy jungle in the southeast, right? We've seen in those trailers, we've got both of the Zoras.

What's going on there? It's things like that, like great. One of the tribes of Zoras looks like Breath of the Wild Zoras with the wild Zoras with the fish heads and the other tribe of Zoras looks like the link to the past Zoras that shoot things at you from the water, right? And so there's, it literally does, you know, I talked earlier mechanically, it feels like 2D Zel, the link to the past mixed with Breath of the Wild or whatever, but it is that it is that in theme and the map is that it feels like that is sort of the philosophy of this whole game to a certain extent. And that to me is the thing about the how, why this feels

like the most well-realized 2D high rule is that it feels more like a 3D high rule. It feels like these are the areas have characters and like a world that they and rules that they live by. And you're interested in it. And I feel like the side quests and main quests all back that up in a way that every single little character interaction of like it, it never feels like dumb side quests of oh, go help get this person get their cat. Like all the little stories that they're doing feel like, oh, Zelda is enhancing the world of Hyrule. Like I you you kind of endear yourself to these different crews out there. And it feels good. It doesn't just feel like, oh, I'm playing a video game.

It's like, oh, there's stories here that, like, matter. And, you know, it's not freaking Shakespeare. Shakespeare. But, like, I don't know, man. I will call you out, Tim. Tim, I will call you out. There is literally a side quest where you have to go get someone's cat. Well, fair.

Okay. You are right. You are right. But even then, no, it feels like I care about doing it. And some of the things you get from that are pretty freaking awesome. Yeah. And at your point, they use that in a way that teaches you about the town and teaches you about sort of what that area of Hyrule is about.

So you're fully right, yes. That is very funny, though. And if I may, I think one of the reasons that I was so much more enamored with a lot of the quests and side quests and characters and your role in them is because you're Zelda. You're Link. I love Link, but he is in most of the games sort of just this mute avatar who doesn't really, he's on the periphery of the story as this destined hero going out to. help people and save Zelda, but that's sort of his role. In this game, you are the central character

of the plot, right? This is Hyrule under this crisis and you are the princess going out to save your people and they know who you are. And they are saying, wow, you're Zelda. Thank you for helping me with this thing I was doing. Or they're not. Or they're there and they know, they don't know who she is, but they know who the princess is. And like, that to me is like, oh, my God, this feels like a well-realized Hyrule where it's like, it's not all just like, oh, there's a hero. It's like, there's some like stuff going on. That's awesome. Yeah. I love that connection. I just, I love that you're more engaged there. And if I can backtrack to the backtracking section, one thing I will also say is I think, Tim, you're totally right that you do sort of live in an

area and complete it, right? One of the things I was surprised by is that if you revisit those areas later on as you've progressed the story more, I would go back to an area I was sure I had 100%ed, and then there would just be a new side quest there, and I would get distracted and have a mini-dungeon I didn't know about because I returned for some unrelated reason. So they do give you reasons to go back, but they seem to be fully optional extra as you go

if you want to just keep playing this game, rather than they're making you go to these areas multiple times. I like that a lot. it's a weird question I guess especially because I know you guys are being so great about not spoiling stuff were there any echoes that you were forced to use that you just didn't enjoy are there like is something no no okay no honestly yeah I feel like the echoes are pretty good like anything that I wanted to do in the game I was able to like and and if I wasn't at that moment like you was saying pretty soon after you get something that lets you I do think that something I had to wrap my head around that immediately I didn't like and almost right after that, I was like, Tim, just let the game be the game. Let the game game.

I keep forgetting what the name of it is. It's not Godhand, but the, Oh yeah, the tries grabbing thing, the ultra hand style thing. So yeah, like ultra hand in Tears of the Kingdom, Greg, do you know what we're talking about here? It's like that green, like, in throw it out and you can move things around, right?

Yeah. And like that's so core to Tears of the Kingdom. They have a very similar thing here. But the difference with it is, because this game is 2D, and even in like more top-down 2D sections like the how do I say this

like the X and Y access of how this works you don't have just free form you can put it anywhere you want it is very limited to the plane that Zelda is on and that turns into a lot of the puzzle solving so it's like you can ultra hand something

but you need to get it up there how do you do that you need to ultrahead it and figure out using other echoes or platforms or whatever to get yourself on that same plane that you need to get the thing to put it on the platform that opens the door or whatever. And that was something that I was like, oh, why would you do that? Like, give me the options. Everything feels so open here.

Why would you do that? But then it's like, oh, the puzzles are all designed around that. I love that. It's actually really, I think, well implemented in smart, actual individual puzzles that add up to a much bigger hole when it comes to the dungeon designs and mixing that ability that you constantly have with. your echoes that throughout the game advance in different ways and it's very interesting to see advanced echoes that you get how they open

up the ability of the ultra hand thing in ways that I was like that's really cool. Damn, I can't wait. Okay. Dungeons. I want to talk about Dungeons. Please. I love them but I don't know that they're my favorite dungeons in the Zelda game.

Okay. And for somebody that's been waiting for new dungeons in the Zelda game I can't help but feel a little let down by their uniqueness. Like I feel like all the dungeons kind of feel the same. And it's like I know that's kind of what we've just been wanting

is just more more dungeons and I might sound crazy to people but if you hear me out, you'll get it. The dungeons in 2D Zelda games and links in the past, they're all kind of just the exact same thing. Link to the past Zelda won, like Oracle games like all of that.

Sure, they might look visually different. Different music might be playing. And in this game, same thing. Like, depending on the area you're in, there's either going to be trees on the thing or more watery stuff or whatever. Like that type of theming, sure, and the boss fights and all that.

But you compare that to the 3D Zelda's and their dungeons. I feel like there's so much character to the great decu tree being a dungeon, you know, to the water temple and how it feels. Like, all of that stuff where each dungeon feels like its own unique place. And you remember it for being that. This game doesn't have.

that and I feel like that's, that's one of the things that I wish translated in this beautiful mesh of 2D and 3D Zelda. I wish that element came through a bit more than it does. And I don't think it's a negative in the way of like, oh, they fucked this up, but more of like, oh, that to me would have really taken this to the next level. Tom, do you agree? Yeah, I don't disagree. I think I enjoyed them maybe more than you, which is fine. But I, yeah, I see what you're saying for sure. They're not, you know, they have visual flares and I think the puzzles do distinguish themselves with certain mechanics in certain ways

like the the icy place avoiding spoilers kind of, that one stood out to me as having some pretty interesting unique thematic puzzles and dungeons in that area. But you're not wrong that they're not, again, similar maybe to the bosses, they're not going to make any crazy top lists

of Zelda dungeons. But also, I think that's sort of a little bit of a symptom. Maybe I'm misremembering. I think it's a little bit of a symptom of sort of modern 2D Zelda games generally speaking. When I think of the really cool dungeons, I think of the 3D games more than the 2D ones. And these ones,

I think, even if the dungeon structure itself was not blowing me away, the puzzle rooms individually, case by case within them, I was having so much fun with. I sort of, I guess I just didn't mind that as much as you maybe. Oh, no, I'm right there with you. Like, the

the content in the dungeons, the puzzles themselves, I think are incredible. It is just, I think, the overall. Yeah. I don't think that's unfair to say it by any means. But I also think that one thing that they added in this that I don't think has been in other 2D Zelda games is within the dungeons, there's warp points that you can unlock. Oh, right. Fast travel, yeah.

You can kind of fast travel within the dungeon. And oh, my God, quality of life, man. It is just the amount of times I think back to links of the past. I'm like, I know where I need to go. but I don't want to go three floors up or whatever. This, it's like, I feel like there's not too many of them. It doesn't like make it like too easy to traverse everything. They're in very, very well-placed spots that I was very impressed by.

Classic example of that. They almost always have one at the boss door. Yeah. So that if you find it early and you have to go back and get the boss key, then you can just teleport there when you're done with that. Brilliant. Brilliant. Just little nice things like that.

This game does not want to waste your time. That's what I want to hear. That's why I want to hear. Awesome. Yeah. Any other, Tom, Tim,

any other final thoughts you want to get out before we shut this one down? I mean, I feel like there's so many things that we've already said and so many things that we don't even need to say just because it's obvious,

but this game is delightful. This game is magical and whimsical. It's like all of those things. It is a simple joy to play. I think it's an easy recommendation to anybody that likes video games or is interested in playing video games. Like this,

this is awesome. It's a great game. and I cannot believe that we are this far into the Switch's life cycle, getting games, brand new games of this quality. And shout out to Grezo. They have proven themselves. They already have,

but I think this is definitely a big step for them. And I'm incredibly excited to see what they have cooking next because they're a team to watch and they've always had the talent and to see them be able to do something this good. We didn't talk about performance at all, which I actually think is important. In my

experience, I thought, like, playing Link's Awakening, I was like, oh my God, we need new switch hardware. I didn't feel that with this. As far as I could tell, the game functions with either, it switches between 30 and 60, just kind of like intermittently. And it happens a lot. But because of the style of the game, it didn't get in the way of my experience. And I just, I was actually impressed that it didn't run worse. But I'm very interested to see when other people play. I played on handheld mode, 98% of the time. for this one. Okay.

So, yeah, I was surprised at how well the game ran. But Tom, what was your experience? Well, yeah, my experience with it is that it's still worse than I feel like a game that looks like this should be,

if that makes sense. Like I wouldn't expect this sort of very toyish style and, you know, simple models to have any frame rate issues. But this is the switch we have right now.

But beyond that, I do agree with Tim. I think the difference, the main difference between Link's Awakening and this is that Link's Awakening would have these moments where you would leave a building or whatever, and you would crash for five or six seconds of like real stutter that made it hard to play. This feels like it sort of just is consistently not quite hitting 60 or dipping a little bit. But it's, and it's a little annoying because it's constant, but it's also never so bad that it's gonna hinder your time with it

really significantly in the way we're like, Link's Awakening, I thought was pretty unacceptable. This is manageable and tolerable, and it's annoying still, but it's not awful. My overall take on the game, though, my final sort of thought is like, I'm not necessarily, I think the way I came away from this game

is that I'm not necessarily sold on echoes being the future of Zelda, but I think what they did structurally and how they built this game and how they worked echoes into it and how they took the new and mixed it with the old i am fully sold on this being the future of the series if they want to go that direction i think it they did a really phenomenal job with that aspect of it and like tim said it's just fun it's just a really fun game and i really hope that people treat it with the respect it deserves as being the next zelda game coming out because it really

really is that. Well put, well said. Well, there you have it, everybody. That's the review of the legend of Zelda, Echoes of Wisdom. Of course, Tom from IGN gave it a 9 out of 10. You should go to IGN.com. Check out the full review.

Watch the video review. Tim, from here, kind of funny, gave it an 8.5 out of 10. Gentlemen, we thank you for your thoughts. Of course, this has been another episode of Kind of Funny Gamescast. Remember each and every weekday, four, sometimes three best friends gather on this table

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