Kitbag Conversations - Episode 3: Daphne Wesdorp and a tour through Ukraine

Episode Date: March 17, 2022

Daphne Wesdorp (@daphnewesdorp) is an independent writer and photographer from the Netherlands, focused on conflict and post conflict situations. Before the Russian invasion, she covered events in Palestine, Iraq and Greece and currently is on the ground in Ukraine. Since the war began, she has spent time in Krakow, Lviv, Odessa, Dnipro and is now near Kharkiv. Throughout the episode we discuss:  - Refugee situation in Lviv and Dnipro  - Moral of Ukrainian forces in Odessa  - and "cancelling Russia" 

Hello, and welcome back to Cruella Tillman Report, a podcast dedicated to delivering quality information to the community level. This week's guest is Daphne Wesdorf, an independent writer and photographer from the Netherlands who is currently on the ground in Ukraine. Before she covered the Russian invasions, she talked about Palestine, Iraq, and Greece, among other topics. Real quick, I'm going to hand it over to Daphne so she can talk about her background and current experience.

Yeah, hi. Thanks for having me. Yeah, as you said, I'm an independent writer, photographer. At the moment, I'm doing film as well, so it's a bit of everything. I have a background in anthropology. I studied my bachelor in the Netherlands, but after that I went to Palestine, to Greece. I'm based in Iraq, that's where I still live. And I'm basically just writing about post-conflict and conflict situations.

Yeah, and as I said, right now in Ukraine, I'm planning to do a documentary. It's going to be very gross rules, very low budget. So it's not going to be a very high quality, long documentary, but just to show, to report from the ground. Yeah. Okay, okay. Thanks. You've been in Ukraine for a little while now.

Can you just kind of walk the dog of where you've been? Yeah, sure. So I came from Iraq, and I went to Poland to Krakow, which is probably the best place, like if you want to enter Ukraine to go to. Let me see. From Krakow, we went to the border. I stayed there for about a day to check on the situations, the situation of the refugees that are trying to head to the west.

Yeah, and I think like I posted something in my story about it. It's just thousands of people that are basically stuck after they've entered Poland. They're being, they're sleeping in malls, for example, and abandoned malls like in a train station. That's a hotspot. Yeah, and from there on I went to, to Lviv by train. Stayed a couple days in Lviv. Then I went to South to Odessa. Then I, then I went by train to the Nipro.

Right now I'm in Lviv. Okay, and real quick before we move on to the Lviv area, you were talking about the mall, where all the Ukrainians are essentially in the Krakow, Poland, where everyone's going. How do they get in? Passports, is it refugee status? Do they seek asylum? What's the process? So basically Poland, like it's mainly a place that people just enter, like to, to get through

to different countries. Many people go to Germany. Yeah, basically to the west. So the men, like the people that I met that were at the train station, they were waiting for their transfers to, yeah, wherever basically the Netherlands, wherever they have family or friends. So Poland, I haven't heard of many people actually that they were planning on staying there. And most people were just like, yeah, we're either going to have two friends or whatever and we're going to see how the war evolves and wait until we can go back. Yeah, so, so basically that but as you said, the situation was quite terrible, especially at the mall. Yeah, I hope I pronounced it right in Primitzel, I think there was an abandoned mall and they were like, thousands of people.

They were stuck for like a couple of days already. Yeah, just waiting for transfers because they go by bus. They have to go by bus or by, by train. But since it is such a hot spot and so many people are trying to get out at the same time. It's very difficult, difficult like logistically speaking to, to transfer these people as soon as possible. And it's all like it's all volunteer work. I don't think well the Polish government like support, but the people that I met and especially at the mall. It was all organized by people from from the city itself. Okay, and do you know if they're what the food situations like if they're getting any medical or humanitarian supplies or since it's all volunteer is it just whatever people are willing to give up.

Yeah, it's kind of insane like I was actually surprised by that that the food situation and everything it's quite well handled. There's like a separate, but there was there was a lack of like beds and everything like, you know, people were like lying on the ground, sleeping bags, anything. But there was, especially in the train station. There were a lot of volunteers that were making boss that were making. Yeah, just basically like meal sandwiches, and they were handing it out. So I was actually surprised by that that it's just, and I found it so beautiful to see to be honest that people from Poland volunteers are just out there cooking and trying to make sure that these people have everything. They're stuck there. Um, and inside LeViv itself, were there any makeshift bomb shelters or areas where people would take cover because I know that's where a lot of individuals from say like, Keith or Odessa were going to essentially flee the war zone, and they were meeting and even moving west.

Yeah, I know you're right. Well, in LeViv, it was like, for example, I was trying to book my hotel. I was a bit late when I was in Poland. So I booked a hotel when I was on the train. But yeah, that's like that's simply impossible, because all the departments, all the hotels, they've been, you know, like, like different people like refugees from different cities from Herzog, from Mariupol, from Kiev, they're staying there. The city was so crowded. So yeah, yeah, LeViv is very, very crowded. But again, it's also like a place where people transfer so they're not planning on staying there, most people. Yeah, and about like shelters, there have been some houses that are that are like, how do you say that they've been built as a shelter for like few beds and everything what people can, what people can say for the time being. There was a library library that was also like a place where they make the camouflage nets like you probably saw the pictures of it.

And some rooms of it because it was very huge. It was very big. Some rooms have been like some refugees are staying in there. So it's basically it's very scattered all around the city, to be honest. Churches as well. I went to the evangelical church and I was in vinegar was a bit outside of the bees. But it was like, I was trying to interview the priest. We tried to open like his the door from his office. And it was stuck because he was like oh shit like there's also beds in here so like every single bit of space was being used for people. Yeah, for the refugees. Okay, okay. And so after leave you went south to Odessa. And can you just talk about how your initial interaction with Odessa because it has been shelled but it hasn't been full on attack like in Pearson or Harkins so you could talk about that. Yeah, of course.

So the way from the Vista Odessa was pretty interesting as well. Of course, like the siren is going and recently it was bound but like the way to Odessa like we saw the trenches like hundreds of people like in the woods, digging trenches. So many checkpoints are things like from the way to the Vista Odessa we passed like, maybe like 2030 checkpoints with like the territorial defenses, like manning them. Yeah, there was like a lot of semesters as well that we saw like a lot of like new graves. It was an interesting road. And when we went to, we came to the checkpoints before Odessa. And like the territorial defenses they were like, they were so nice they literally said like because we have TV on the car. And they were like yeah thank you so much for coming to Odessa because the south is, well in my opinion it's a bit unreported. People look at Mario pool but the south. Yeah, because it hasn't been a full scale invasion yet has been a bit forgotten, I think.

But now actually recently I don't know if you saw it but like the coast of Odessa like the district in the south that has been bombed quite intensively. There's a lot of shelling in the villages over there. And the warships, well I think like the territorial defenses they sank one I'm not sure if that was verified or not. But yeah like you see the warplanes are now actually advancing the city. So I do think the city is going to be under a bit more attack. Yeah. Okay, did you interact with the soldiers all. And if so, did you kind of get an idea of what their overall morale is like are they, are they ready for an all out assault for. Yeah, yeah they're ready. That's what they said like we went to Miko live. And in Odessa as well but I think it's basically the same the same story but we went to Miko live to, to drop off some supplies, and we talked to the officer like the commander of a military base there. It's very clear that the morale is really high in Odessa as well as Miko live like the case with Miko live is that it's, it's nearly encircled except for the west.

There's one bridge that is like leading to Odessa. And the Russian troops haven't advanced on that. So it's a pretty you know it's a pretty vulnerable situation the city is in, because you know, you can imagine like once they bought the bridge or once they get that like the city is going to be trapped like it's going to be the same as my But besides that, the morale was really high, like I asked the commander if the city was ready for, you know, for, for a more intensive fight, and yeah, it was laughing and he was like, we're totally ready. Yeah, I know I saw on your, your Instagram that there were those metal and placements in the road to stop tanks from moving in and they're preparing the coastline and scuttling their own ships the Ukrainians to what could be suspected as preventing those ships from falling in any hands or getting or on the other hand, just preventing the Russians from being able to cruise right up to the port itself and offload. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, but the thing is like, even though the morale is really high. Then, yeah, you know, like it's still the city is being attacked from three sides, you know you have Crimea, the warships. So, yeah, I'm really not sure how it's going to how it's going to work out and all the check the checks hedgehogs and the coins like in the city like, is it going to prevent the Russians from from attacking the city like, I'm a bit skeptic about that but you know like maybe the soldiers as well because you can see like, not just the soldiers but basically

everyone like everyone does have a high morale and they really want to fight and they think they're ready and you know very good thing. You can see that like people are really scared as fuck to be honest. Even the soldiers in my opinion. I noticed that you posted a few pictures of soldiers putting sandbags and protective materials around the Dukov region. And they're like landmarks. Is there a special focus on protecting civilian landmarks or just cultural icon in that little area. Yeah, yeah, definitely, but it's just like, because it was the same, they wrap the statues in protective sheet. Well, like if you ask me I'm not sure how much is going to help like the Russia part of the center it's not going to not going to stand. But it's just people from the city they're doing it because they are really they want to protect their, their heritage at the landmarks, which makes sense because Odessa itself it's a beautiful city you know with some like the opera. So it would be such a waste and I think they think that as well.

The civilians are being very. How do you say they're participating with the soldiers into protecting the city like they're thinking they're thinking alike. Do this might be a little off topic but there's always those videos floating around of Ukrainian grandmothers throwing Molotov cocktails at Russian btrs. Yeah. Do the Ukrainians inside Odessa need that and just mentally get ready and know what to do or is there any formal training from the military to the civilians of hey this is what happens when they attack kind of thing or is it kind of. Can I repeat the question one more time. Is there any training from the military to the civilians on how to prepare, or do they just watch Instagram reels and go okay that's what they're doing in Keith. Sorry man the door is really hassle.

Yeah, I heard your question. No there is no there like trainings organized everywhere. I know that in Odessa. It's, it's, there's like, there's a big training inside the university where people can basically just join so if you want to join the military defenses if you want to be able to defend yourself. You can go there and I think it's the army that is training them. So there's a lot of places in the beef and Kiev and Odessa. Yeah, and I think for the rest like, if you talk about the Molotovs. It's not that difficult to look up like how to make a Molotov so I think people just do that online. We saw a lot of like Molotov factories like everywhere Ukraine in Odessa. And in the Nipro as well by the way there's a huge one here which is man by primary school teachers, there's like three of them and they make.

Well what is it, they told me that they can make like, like 300 a day, or in a couple of hours. So I don't think the minute I don't think they get training for that I think that's just basically looking up online. Yeah, but there are there are many trainings definitely. Okay, okay. And real quick, you talked about being in Nicolaev. I know that it's what 70 kilometers northeast of Kersen, which is about 40 miles. Here, since you stopped off there very briefly did you notice any people from Kersen going there for refugee status or because it's so close I know that the outside of Kersen the Russians essentially bomb the city, but is there any. What was that. Sorry in Nicolaev you mean. Yes. No, no, because the thing with Nicolaev like it's, it's basically a ghost on like as a refugee you don't want to you don't want to be there.

Drive through the streets that on every side of the corner, you see piles of tires with and barricades with Molotov cocktails like standing next to it. This is really preparing for a, for a, yeah, for an invasion. So the most most refugees from Kersen. I think they drive through. No, actually, I don't know because it's Russian territory. Now they go to Odessa. That's, that's what I can say like the transition about 700 days. It's a pretty good train connection actually like the train from Odessa to to the view it takes about like 10 to 12 hours and every day people from Kersen, from Mariupol, from from Michael live as well many people from Michael live they go to Odessa train station, and they wait there for the next train. Yeah, so that's what I saw because most people from from Nicolaev like they, they just want to get out as soon as possible. I spoke with a woman in the train station and she told me that Nicolaev like you have the old party of the new part, but the new party doesn't really have shelters.

Yeah, you know, after Shelly was got too intense he was like yeah fuck man I have nowhere to go so basically just get to get out as soon as possible to Odessa. Okay, and so you went to the Nipro after that. What was, you were just there what yesterday or the day before what was that like. It's very different from the West like it's definitely very different like if you have Odessa, you have Lviv. But it's way more Soviet because it was, it was, yeah, it was Soviet. The vibe is very different than the Nipro is also it was, it has been airstriked a bit more. There was an airstrike three, no sorry four days ago which targeted shoe factory. The guard died, which was a civilian dog as well. And it's basically the same like the Nipro it's, it's still kind of safe. The airport was also bombed but like the center hasn't been targeted yet.

But there is huge lines of people that are waiting at the train station to go to Lviv. So it's basically it's you know it's the same story in every city like huge amounts of refugees in here from Mariapol and from from the South and from Donetsk from Luhansk. They're just that just want to go to Lviv. But for now the Nipro it's it's it's a relatively safe place to be because they first have to, to pass by Zaporizhia, which is, you know, like it's not going to happen anytime soon, I think, like, yeah, it's hard to make predictions about that. Yeah, for now the Nipro it's safe. It's a transfer spot. This is Lviv, in my opinion. We're staying in a hotel in Nipro and I think like 90% of all the guests because the hotel is, it's almost full like 90% of the guests there are people from from the Donbas from Luhansk. Yeah, just waiting to be transferred to a different city or different country. The Nipro is where a lot of those refugees coming out of Mariapol are heading, like that's their transit spot they're heading just straight from Mariapol or do you think they're heading more west.

Sorry, from Mariapol that they go to the Nipro and then go to the west. Yeah, do you think they're just coming from Mariapol? Like, is that the middle point? Because I know a lot of them come from South from Kharkiv. Yeah, yeah, no, absolutely, yeah, absolutely. Yeah, they come to the Nipro, they stay there for a couple of days, like if they're friends they probably stay there but if they're friends in other places they'll just head there from the Nipro. Yeah, you know, like that's the thing that the train connections are pretty good so from the Nipro to Lviv, while it takes of course like almost 24 hours but still. Yeah, still it's a good way of transportation and a pretty safe way. Also the trains are free so for refugees it's the most easy way to mobilize. Okay, okay. And now you're near Kharkiv, you said you're about 30 minutes southeast of the city? Now an hour I would say, yeah an hour. Okay, okay, so this whole time you've been saying, me? Who are you with?

I'm with Colin, I'm with Colin Mayfield, he was here. Let me think that before the invasion actually was in Kharkiv. So for him it's interesting as well I think to go back after all what happened. So we're going to see tomorrow. And I'm with Sean, he's an Armenian journalist working for, he's a freelancer as well. Yeah, he's a good friend of Colin, so we're here with the three of us. And for me like because I have the idea that in Kharkiv like most journalists have left. But I do think since you know like most of the reporting, if you look at the news while I can speak for the Netherlands and like Western Europe. A lot is going on about Kiev, about Mariupol, which makes sense.

But Kharkiv it's a very very dire situation as well. It's very dangerous to be honest like to be there so that's why we're staying like outside of the city like in a village. But yeah like I'm planning or we're planning to stay here for at least a couple of days. It's possible a bit longer but we just have to see what the situation is like. Because the bombing and the shelling and Kharkiv like it's yeah it's pretty intense. Okay, and for the freelance journalist inside Ukraine right now, what's the main method of transit? Is it just the train? Is it a cab? Do you just get a car? Well in the city like bold is amazing, bold is working really well, well not a car if I think.

But then the need for relief like yeah inside the city that's best. We're going by train now because we don't have a car, we would love to have a car though and it might be a bit more useful. So for the freelancers here I would definitely recommend yeah just buy a cheap car to be honest. Or maybe rent one but I think it's expensive so it's like if you want to stay for longer like an extended amount of time. Just buy one I would say like buy a cheap car, just drive wherever like most of the time if you have the accreditation that you need. They won't make a problem at the checkpoints. And by train as well like the train connection is pretty good so you can survive without a car. Okay.

Yeah. If you ran into other freelance journalists running around, just outside of you three at the moment, when you went to say Odessa, or in the NEPRO, if you found, is there like a little click of freelance journalists running around trying to report on certain areas or do you think it's just how to keep and keep is the main focus. For freelance journalists you mean? Yes. No actually I don't think so like I know some other freelance journalists that went to Odessa. I've met a lot of them in Lviv actually because it's you know it's a good base to be for people that want to cover Ukraine but don't want to necessarily go to the front lines. So no I would say like in the NEPRO it's a bit less I think.

But in Odessa, in Lviv there's definitely many freelance journalists. Yeah to be fair like I think freelancers just like drive around or running around through the whole country. So they basically end up anywhere. Okay. And you said you're only going to be in Kharkiv for a few days so what comes next? Are you going to leave Kharkiv and head back to Poland or just onto the next major city? Yeah it's a difficult question like I came here in the first place because I wanted to cover like the resistance like because I was you know like my heart was really worn by seeing all the volunteers by seeing the you know like the territorial defenses like the you know the teachers and whatever picking up their rifles.

But now that I'm here I'm actually yeah I'm actually thinking about staying for a bit longer. I don't know what will happen or what I will do after Kharkiv. Yeah I'm still thinking about doing the documentary. So I have to see how that's working out and if that's just going to be something about Kharkiv or about Kiev or whatever. So for now like I don't really have an end date. I'm just staying here basically until there's no more stories to tell which can be a very long time. So I'll see but I'll probably be here for at least at least a couple of weeks yeah. And this might be a little maybe not your area but if you ran into or interviewed any foreign volunteers from say the United Kingdom or the United States or something that of those thousand that have come into fight for Ukraine, maybe you ran into one.

Yeah, no a couple of them actually like I ran into a group at the train station. They were heading to the front lines like it, obviously they couldn't they couldn't say where. But yeah that was a group of foreign fighters from the UK. I'm also in contact with the guys from. Let me think. No he's also from the UK actually is yeah. He's coming here in a couple of days. Yeah, there's many of them.

And the reason like the motivation that they give to fight it's mainly because they. They want to fight for the justice. It's also like it's an anti authoritarian thing I think that many people just want to. Yeah, like pick up the rifles to to fight like fascist and like the. Elisabeth invasion of of Ukraine. But yeah there's many foreign fighters. Okay, and is there any area or have you encountered any areas where there was reduced electricity or no internet connection because in Mary Opal I know there was about a 48 hour window where they had no contact with the outside world. Yeah, is how is that the electrical infrastructure that you bring right now.

Well to be honest, the places where we've been so far in the view from Odessa the people. If you make a live like it's, it's still fine like it's there's internet there's electricity. I think for hard if that's a different story because the power plant got got shelled. Right now the place for right now at it's in the district of Harkiv so it's here is here it's fine. But I do think that in the center like in the city center and in the, especially the north and in the, in the west of Harkiv like what I've heard, but I can't be 100% sure because I haven't been there. But yeah, there's a, there's a big lack of electricity, as well as food by the way like, Nikolayev, when we went there, there were huge lines for the supermarkets. Yeah, and it's also like which is maybe a bit more like the preparation because people kind of see it coming that, you know, division is going to expand. There's a lot of companies in supermarkets in like gas stations. They put the lights like, like the half of the shop is dark because they want to save on electricity to save for, you know, to prepare for maybe a shortage. Yeah, but I think in Harkiv like, I can let you know tomorrow because I haven't been to the city yet. But I think in Harkiv that's a big problem. Yeah.

And the last major question I have for you is, and this might be a more of a loaded question, but on your side of the community, you have the ability to go on Twitter and Instagram and everyone can see what the situation in Ukraine looks like. But on the other side, Russia is being isolated from Twitter, from Instagram, from social media, from YouTube, from every outlet. So do you believe personally as a freelance journalist that that idea to essentially put off Russia is beneficial, because on one hand it's stopping the Russian propaganda machine from working. But on the other, it's almost making the Russian people regress onto that. It's us versus them mindset. Do you think what is your take on that? Well, like this whole thing about canceling Russia. You know, like on the one hand I get it, as you said, like it's canceling the propaganda or whatever, but I do think it's going to, it's going to bring more damage than it will do good. Because in the end, I'm like, it's not going to, it's not going to help Russia like stopping, Russia is not going to stop shelling Ukraine, because they're banned from Instagram for social media or whatever. So I don't think it, yeah, it will definitely like fragmented more. And I don't think canceling Russia is really, it's really the way to go.

Yeah, to be honest. Yeah, I'm not sure about that. Okay. Okay, well, that about wraps up the questions I have do you have anything you would like to plug or anything you would like to throw out there. Yeah, actually I do. For example, the international journalist that died. Like, first it was the guy. And if been I think it was, yeah, and after as well from the guy from Fox News.

It always, you know, it always bothers me a bit like that because their fixer died as well. It always bothers me a bit that the international media are just like ranting about the death of international. You know, like international journalists which is, you know, of course important but yeah, it's just, it always, I always think it's a bit. It's a bit shitty when they forget about the Ukrainian fixtures which actually make, which make their work possible which makes international journalists to be able to do their work. So yeah, that's that's what just something that bothered me today for a little bit. And then I Fox News like once they, they corrected it because they didn't even mention her name, like, when she died. It was a wrong name like they misspelled her name. So that was just like a piece, like something that kind of annoyed me for a bit.

And as well that, you know, obviously like Ukraine it's, it's a little bit less on the on the render I think of, of the media but it's still like for example if you were talking about the warranty grave to talk about me on Mars. These wars are also still very much going on. Yeah, and it's just so sorry. It's just, I think people shouldn't forget that Ukraine is, it's not the only war that is happening right now. I'm actually glad you mentioned that because the big thing last year in the first half was, you know, Myanmar and there's the coup. And then there was the Afghan collapse when everyone left Kabul and that was hot in the news and then within two weeks no one talked about it and then Ukraine had that shock value of the Russians building up for nine months and the narrative was in this overnight where it didn't come from but they were building up since last April it's people in the community were talking about it forever and so it's exactly right and it was you know like it, it didn't came out of thin air I mean, I think it was in April or like, like a year ago or something it was, it was about to happen and you know then they didn't went through.

It's been a long. Yeah, it's certainly didn't came out of thin air. And the best angle is Ukraine got invaded three weeks ago now, and within a week everyone was talking about increased gas prices and they were like oh yeah by the way there's war in Ukraine. So, which is, you know, the largest since World War two in Europe, but yeah I'm glad you mentioned that because it seems not to sound like it seems like the narrative is whatever but it's the short attention span of almost the average viewer is the hot topic right now. So, yeah, yeah exactly and I mean with the gas prices and all you know I get it but I'm just getting a bit tired of these people on Twitter that are like sitting behind their desk and they think that they know what they're talking about but you know like you're not the one there so please don't please like your opinion doesn't really matter to me I was like you're not the ones countries being invaded you're not the one who has to go to the whatever the alarm is going to who the fuck about your opinion. Okay, okay, but okay that wraps it up for me if you have any if you don't have anything else I'll let you go and I guess do your thing and then I'll publish this here so. Yeah, thank you so much. No I think that was that was it on my part.

Sorry. Hello. Okay. But alright yeah like I said I'm going to let you go and thank you so much. I guess. Yes. Bye.