Kitbag Conversations - Episode 34: Southern Africa 101

Episode Date: January 16, 2024

In this episode, Shombe Report joins us to talk about Southern Africa. Born and raised in Mozambique Shombe Report has been a superb friend and benefit to our community on all things Africa and the region's military.

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1 tbh 1 tbh 1 tbh 1 tbh 1 tbh 1 tbh I'm going to do a little bit of the same. We are here speaking from the British Consulate of Myanmar, speaking about the activities within Eastern and Southern Africa with our host, the African. How are we today? Shambha report. Sean Bay Report. The cover. The cover always.

So just so everybody knows, just start out where you're from and why you can talk about Africa because you live there. Yeah. born and raised and was a big. And it was all as interested in it because I mean, when you hear people from Europe and the US talk about where you live, it's always completely different from what you've seen. And so I was like, huh, I didn't know it looked like that. I'm going to need some. So then, yeah, peak my interest and we got talking and I'd say it's start page and over here. Now we're here, yeah. So we were talking before this while Matt was doing his things and like, we're back. No, so no, we were talking about, so for this podcast, I think we've already told you, but we'll just tell the listeners like, I wanted to bring him on because I wanted

to talk about South Africa. I wanted to talk about bricks. I wanted to talk about Southern Africa, everything going done on there. I mean, most of them be in the North as having issues with separatists and terrorists. Our wand is doing a lot down there. We talk about, I mean, everybody talks about Africa and China deals, you know, the Belt and Road Initiative. And I mean, you're talking about one, China, but two, you're talking about Africa. And so you put those two together and you're in a small group of analysts who know, I mean, maybe 2% of analysts can speak both Africa and China, but you can speak about it personally, because I mean, how many talks have we had about China

and Africa, you know, one of my favorite things that you've told me was, you know, America showed up to Mozambique after the revolution with guns, training, and special forces, and Mozambique was like, we were just, we just got done, bro, And China sent a hospital ship. And they're like, thank you. That's, and it's, yeah. I mean, but no, yeah. So I guess the question is, is like the number one, the bottom line up front, what do we as Americans just get wrong? Americans just get wrong.

How understanding what people really want in all the approach things, the main thing I'd say, where it's like, if you're China, for instance, and you approach a country, don't try and force, or you don't try and give them something and make it dependent on changing their own ideas. Yeah. And then if they don't, you threaten them with either sanctions or something severe. And yeah, another, yeah, it's like, you know, if you don't accept it in a gender studies or if you don't decriminalize Oh, it's like same sex marriages

then We're gonna have to sanction you or you're not gonna get to Sloan or we can so this piece of knowledge over as China's like well It stays fake from a sense of all our aim is not to, you know, interfere in people's destinies, you know, everyone's on realm of influence, you do what you want, we want X, you give us Y and you know, everyone goes home happy. And from what I see in the least the US is very forceful in how they approach things that it starts driving people off or especially in talk about China it's always an

us versus them narrative where the US sort of pits you you know that if you joined them you're sort of in the club against others. Yeah. And there's less ambiguity. It's like with Ukraine, you know, you had to pick a side. And say either Vitov Russia or, you know, Block Russia or you're against the good guys, basically. So. Yeah. And then.

Yeah. Well, that's just the George Bush line. If you're not with us, you're with the terrorists. So the entire umbrella, like how America approaches countries like or continents like Africa and South America is, if you're not with us, we don't care about you. But I think that the large standing perception that if America jumps in your backyard, you have to play by the rules

until they get bored and then they get thrown away. So I believe there's like a large, like a rising skepticism within the continent of Africa. I mean, I've been there. You're, you're from there. There's a skepticism within the average African towards any idea of like America coming in looking for help, quote unquote, they're looking to help you. They're're looking for this that and the other. But then if they just come down and say like, oh, your local law say, you know, if you're gay, you should be beheaded. We don't believe in that. But we completely throw away the idea of like local customs or like traditions. We don't understand how they work through it through. We look at the world through the American point of view, which is essentially Washington. It's not really even in our own country. It's not like,

you know, what someone in Montana or Rhode Island believes is like what the country's collective comes to is it's like, yeah, this is how the world should work. And the way we approach something like Africa, that very complex situation, is been completely wrong. Yeah. And so it's, we were talking about this. And I know he's he's been around the bush because but I'll say it. The big thing was no, you I mean, it's it's crazy to me that like we've talked about this. And nobody knows like Mozambique is going through huge terrorist problems. And the United States and NATO offered support and help. But with it came gender studies. Like we were like, here's the solution. You know, here's the training. Here's the

advising and assist or not the assist or yeah, trained advise and assistance. But in order to give you this, you have to accept gender studies and you have to accept these other things. And so it's like these. They're under attack from terrorists. They need help with infrastructure and water. And we're like, but I know you're on your knees and bleeding out your fucking rib cage. But how about some gender studies before I give you a bandaid,

but like, what the fuck? Like, help me. And so, I mean, we've also approached that with multiple different countries. Like, what is the big money maker, the big talking point in the American media that gender studies was funded, quote unquote, to Pakistan through USA. And they immediately took that, said absolutely not and put it through the ballistic missile program. And everyone's

like, but it's like the tone, deaf perception that the world should play nice. Like America completely forgot that the world is not a nice place and just approaching something like a like a local tribe in Africa or like a Southeast Asian like village that gets flooded three times a year from natural disasters. It doesn't take a very intelligent person to say whatever we're doing is not working and it's not going to work for very long because you have someone like the Chinese who are opportunists going, their whole policy is not whatever the US is doing. And it's a very attractive alternative

to how the world's going right now. Yeah, it is. It's like going back to Gensro, so they're staying like for context, the EU set up a training program. And most of them making their to train up QRF forces to be deployed into the north to fight Islamic state affiliated terrorists. And they so far, and we've asked, they haven't provided the lead to equipment, but they have been training and everything. One day they post on Facebook obviously,

the pictures and one day they saw a picture of all of them in the classroom together. It's like, yeah, today we, another troops are being taught about gender studies and things like this. Then you scroll on further and it's useful stuff like you know jtax stuff they're being taught camouflage covering concealment but then you scroll it's like oh how do I approach you know people from different genders and everything and I'm just sitting back and thinking it's funny because at least when we had a war of independence, we had women fighting and it's like, you know, not much of this is new. Like we do have, you know, we do respect women and it's a cultural thing in the end in our

own way. So, yeah. I mean, it's, but that's just the thing, right? Like, that's the culture. And you're going to have your way of interacting with women. And we've, I mean, we do it for Saudi Arabia. Saudi Arabia, let's, doesn't even let women drive for like, how long. And then we're not doing gender studies with them. In fact, they're commuting, doing human rights violations and stuff like that.

And so, hey guys, what's up? So right about here is where somebody actually comes in to Shambhaar reports room and starts asking about something. So we're going to do him a solid and we're going to cut that out. But in the meantime, please go ahead and give us a review on Spotify, iTunes, wherever you listen to your podcast, it really helps out a lot. If you want to be part of the show, you want to be part of the things that we are doing, we have things such as a lifting club, we have game nights, we have a book club, we have all types of

things going on in the discord. So if you want to get involved in that, head on over to the Patreon, it's $10 a month for everything $6 a month look at your access to the discord and the game night and then three dollars look at you all the bonus episodes that we do as well So leave a review and if you love us consider following us on patreon dude, we're leaving that in I think it is informative for the listeners because you are raised Mozambique and you now live in Italy. So you can look at it from both sides, like the situation from Africa and also the European unions kind of perspective of things. So you see both sides back and forth.

I'm not going out on a light here. I'm just going out on a light here. I'm just saying that That was hilarious, but we were though. I don't know how I'm gonna cut that Not they don't just leave it in no it's yeah, so we were talking about the gender studies, but I like like as he said the In most of these wars for independence Every it was a collective movement a popular front of he would where women men fought aside by side moving forward Look at him laughing But it's like the US does it like our foreign policy boys don't read any history of these countries they're tasked with like being in charge of.

So like, uh, yeah, again, like I said, it's the perception of Washington being embedded in these countries where like, well, we will work with you if you change your society towards us. It's almost like us with the Soviets in the 1980s, where as soon as McDonald's showed up and blue jeans and rock and roll, we thought that would implode the Soviet Union and it did. I'm not saying it was a leading cause for that, but it really like heard of the Russian population towards like a pro-Western standpoint. And so soft power is a big thing. And it's almost like the US is still relying on soft power to kind of like, corral, like isolated for independent nations towards

our team. Who good guys? Dude, for like a solid five years, JLo's ass was the epitome of American diplomacy. That got people on our side. They were like, they're like, they have JLo. Like, it's got to do that. Shakira. secure secure makes me want to try the Latin Union After goes with the World Cup Yeah

Still eras on like man He's apparently she ripped off some other artists Yeah, I don't know if it's me or you guys, but I think my innerness being choppy right now. Now you're good. It'll, it'll, it'll upload. But so the, the other thing I wanted to talk about was South Africa. And you know, we've talked about the Mozamb big thing and all that stuff, but like South Africa, when it comes to bricks, obviously, they're literally one of the key players in it. They're the S on the end. But we were talking

about this beforehand with like how South Africa, essentially, like, they're kind of going through it with bricks right now, because African countries want representation, they want to trade in their currency, they don't want to come together as like bricks. They want to be a Thing of states and so when it comes to South Africa in there. What why did they what do you think they picked South Africa? Why? Why did South Africa join? Honestly after

Emerald to go back to the E4 Honestly, after we had me to go back to 94, we were moving from a part day to a sufficient and rather country, and with that came a lot of opening to the world. So whether that's happening, what's that? There was a lot of pain from my own opinion obviously, but from what I saw there was a lot of image change that came with that and all the whole band. Some even say that just the fact that there was an election in 94 and not just mass chaos was a miracle. People calmed down, the elective and the leukemia and Rainbow on Asian, and they were suddenly good. And that came out of open stuff, and I mean, so Africa itself, and I talk about this because NASA Africa is open to both East and West, and it's geographically and politically speaking, the perfect corridor through East, African West, because you have trade rooms, you can have access to the Indian Ocean,

and you can have access to the Atlantic, and you are essentially the most industrialized nation I've ever been. Which they are. Yeah. You have a lot of achievements under your name, you have a lot of technological advancements, a very good economy, a strong military, even now despite many short companies. So, and they're a very good representative, especially you went another, another international committees for Africa. So putting them was a natural thing I see it because gave China, Russia, and India a way to essentially have a foothold in the continent, especially in the long term, because South Africa also represents Africa and it shows other African countries that they can join something that's

bigger than them in a way, and they can have their opinions listened to. I mean, some metals in South Africa last year, for instance, another African thing, Ethiopia also applied to join other African nations applied so Egypt for instance which is a huge thing so yeah and also think that at least with the current government they warmed up a lot to to peace. So, Tangarisha and India, but also countries like Cuba, for instance. So, yeah. No, I was going to say it does. It makes sense geographically. And once you explain that like 94 was kind of like a miracle, it's like, okay, well, how do we keep this stability rolling? How do we keep the momentum going? And it's like, well, here's Brixt. And obviously, as we were talking about with gender studies being part of, you know, our loan agreements, it's like, okay,

well, if we want to keep this momentum going and we have all this as you've stated going, it's like, well, obviously it was the right choice for them. I mean, we've talked, we were talking about it before. He had we wasted all the good content before we hit record. But it's like, you know, America just can't seem to win in Africa because we don't want to understand you guys. And it's sad to the point of like, I think another reason that South Africa was brought in is because they didn't go for Egypt first.

They went for South Africa because 12% of the world's commerce trading goes from the Cape of Goodhoe. So that is an alternative for like economic, if the BRICS platform is economic base, they grabbed 12% right off the bat. So the Russians, they have the gas, the Chinese and the South China Sea,

they have, they grabbed all the key players. Like one person would probably say something like, well why not Nigeria? They have the second or third largest economy in Africa, but they also have a war going on so they had to present their Stability on the forefront in South Africa was the most Viable option. They needed grab someone at every single continent who had something to contribute to the overarching picture in So South Africa like you could say something like You know apartheid ended, there was the democratic elections, but then

after that there was this weird kind of like crime syndicate going on, because the scars were so vague, the triage going on in society. So if you have something like the Russians, the Chinese, shelling up with an economic plan to help bail them out, it really makes them more attractive for smaller African nations in that sphere of influence to jump on board. Actually, the point I wanted to make, I'm sure, God. Africa is a very good, especially, essentially, a very good representative for the content. I said earlier they hosted the World Cup.

Even when she was a little bit there, they took her on trial, or they were taking a strip of to trial against the worst treatment. So, I see how I thank her. Is it a peg? Actually, freebub, but it's just a point of it, maybe, when there's... they are a key player in terms of representation. And, and,

and, and, but, literally, post-94, they became very involved in peacekeeping operations. So, the S&DF is in many different during Osambique as well. They were in the Vivas de Munozco force intervention brigade, which I believe was the first UN sanctioned force to have an offensive mandate. So they could like actually attack. They could do stuff. So they're they're representatives essentially and during most industrialized nation like I said before in Africa and it was just the most feeling it was the most common sense memory to add. Yeah and the other thing is I mean and I've learned this from you and I hope you grab this and run with it.

South Africa is phenomenal when it comes to the military industrial complex. They are phenomenal when it comes to bushcraft and fighting in Africa. I mean, there, I would argue if South Africa wanted to, they could be just as or more lethal than the United States in counterterrorism. I mean, not because they have the technology, but because they have the training and the capability and so Yeah But I mean if you want that that's what I guess the question is Yeah, the question. Yeah, you're good. Yeah, no, you're good. It'll it'll keep it going but the question is is like

How do if the key players in South Africa and their military industrial complex and explaining that behemoth that is actually down there, where would you start? So with Yuri Fritz, you're like, a lot of that's... No, I was talking about how like, another key thing about South Africa, we talk about like camp, camp, camp. Yeah. Well, I mean, it's like we hit the diplomatic. We hit the, we didn't really hit the information and intelligence because we can talk about the Israel and we can talk about the Israeli and South Africa connection for information

and intelligence. But we hit the economic, but we didn't hit the intelligence and military aspect of South Africa. And just how God, like I said, they're probably better equal to or greater than America counterterrorism because of their training. And they're, I mean, their technology is a little different, but they have the means. And it's like, where would you start? Like, how did... Honestly, I mean, we have to talk about the border war. Yeah. For us, I mean, they went on for 1966 to early mid-80s. I forgot the exact year.

But from that war, we saw a lot of things being developed from weapons we can talk about for sure and hopefully during those conflicts is built around that war and they're on the fact that they sulfur lines. And in terms of counterterrorism, there were frisson background. I mean, the border was fallen from the media, which was then south of West Africa, which was given to South Africa after the First World War in Germany lost the position of it. So they were given the mandate to essentially maintain it and maybe north of Namibia, the border is in Gola, is in Gola to the border of Namibia. So when the Portuguese pulled out, when the Carnation Revolution occurred in Lisbon, Portugal essentially lost most or basically all of its colonial possessions, which then led to of acting with power and independence, but with independence, well, came out of their players. So we had, you need a, an Angola and the MPLA, MPLA. So you need a, which was then, and this is a very sparse like summary of what I've been doing.

So, yeah, I mean, we'd be different other hour effects, a commercial like that. Yeah, no, but yeah, you're hitting it. Yeah, just a spark notes. Yeah, basically, yeah, so like the Kahoot version, right? Yeah. So, as I said, I forgot, was that you neither was essentially the, let's say, pro-Western group there. And in summary, they're essentially being beaten by the MPA, so much so that the US requested

the South African to re-nergently because if you need a file then well, we'd have an entire country that's very oil rich very time rich and as access to the Atlantic with very red influence or in the Eastern block flares of stream influence. So What ended up happening is that South Africa intervened So what ended up happening is that South Africa intervened. And the way that intervened is a very excellent account of, like because they're a hybrid warfare.

Because they went in, not as African soldiers, they went in on brown uniforms, no markings. One account there is that when they would like to, you know, like when they would stop and like brush your teeth and everything they had to pick every single thing up and I'll leave everything that was said made in RSA, you know, it was very, like, no one does a lot for the cameras, no one does a lot just call their cameras or anything, it was like supposed to be a white mercenary basically from what I've heard. But they may have ever knew, obviously, Red. But war was actually never declared officially between the Netherlands, Africa. During all that time from the 60s to the 80s, it you need a, they were pushing back the MPALA and there

was operations of Anna. And at one point, they're actually firing this instance of an artillery distance from the capital of Rwanda, but then the US pulled back. Yeah, I'm okay. Yeah. Then they pulled back and then you need to help my finger, which is their headquarters at the time. And then all of other stuff happened. There was Battle of Lumber River, which was when the MPLA, along with the Cubans, and all to you neither. And so essentially because of the 60s to 90s, South Africa's

dealing with all this, the communist uprisings up from the Eastern block sphere of influence. And the first one was, you said, you're saying it's our Wanda and they're going up in there and and go and go. So they're going up into Angola and they're fighting and they're basically cutting their teeth for the first time as like a nation, you know, apart from the UK and they had to learn to fight through fighting communism and they essentially did it in unmarked uniforms. It gets crazy because what you're saying is like we were with them. I mean, we were you literally said we the Americans were giving them orders like hey

Good that that shit out like That's far enough and so I guess When it came into I mean I've learned I've learned what Roy cats are I've learned Fuckin What's the ones with the ATGMs on top of them. The other addles and stuff like that, man. It's when did that come around? When did all these wheel APCs and just this maneuver warfare speed speed is our armor speed is our light?

Like they're just they're just fast. When did that come around? So that was actually not far off from the early beginnings of the conflict. So what essentially happened was they then the featherly on that, due to terrain, they're going to gun after traverse long distances and sometimes be autonomous so you can't have any data sometimes haven't but having a huge with just the call supply chain wasn't always viable especially because if you take a map of Namibia, it's a bit long. You have that and the fact that you do a hot pursuit, you have to go across the border, you have to go fast. So you can't always stop because your BMP has been the tractor instance, right? If you're like the Russians, the Soviets, so with them it was essentially me.

Um, uh, the whole, yeah, no, but I'm an overwar for you. Yeah, like I mean, it's all of it. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I say that it goes back to the board war essentially. I mean, you have spoken about a special little score where boards were very good in horses and there were good shots.

And they fought the British. First board war they did win. And they could utilize their turn to their advantage. I don't know for them. And then you were just like, you know, standards of gravity, right? Did you take all the commander or general and everyone else would well know what to do?

So they knew that they had to hit fast and then essentially leave. And what happened in the goal was many things where when they came in, they still had old, if you know about the ferrets, panor and vehicles, yeah, they had like the AML panor, they were turned into a vehicle called the E-Land, they were all named after animals, and they put a 90 millimeter gun on it and they use these essentially not a tank roll. Then they saw that okay we're face we're not facing T55 is not T340 anymore. So would

that be a rather an actual armor and I'm trying to piece everything together just so many things right off my mind's So Essentially when you get your face in the merrily superior enemy with more firepower and Do you know that you can't always Fight them head on especially if that armor, that you can't always fight them head on, especially if they're armor, but you can maneuver them. Like, for example, with the e-bounds, you have a small car essentially having to shoot on the move against the sety 55 and win. And then you're like, okay, now we need something with the same gun.

Platform with the same gun that can give us options with other guns on it. It can carry soldiers and can traverse long distances without needing heavy supply chain. Then you have the Randall, which is also an important thing, mine proof, because stem mind proof because them and the radisions essentially play near the concept of the M-Rap. Because on the border with the midian Angola, which is known as the cut line because it's literally a whole online. The problem that was happening was a lot of, to them, they were called terrorists, were laying down mines.

So early on you'd have jeeps driving over them and maybe there weren't any armor, there were anything, so you'd have casualties and then they'd be like, okay, we can arm areas, we can make a V-shaped hall, we put roll bars and everything and then I believe the first one was the buffal. I'm just like this really Sri Lanka is to use some variants which is quite tall vehicle with big tires. If you shape tall and you can drive over, I think it's a TM63 landmine and be fine. You'll most likely need to change a few tires, right? Yeah. So having that wheeled ability that's impervious to landmines is fast and as autonomous

means that you can hit further and harder, proportion to your size. Yeah, make what's it like make 10 guys feel like 100 because you're just speeding by and I'm looking I'm looking through this man and it's like even the Alond like it's talking about the FAP LA T34 by 85 and how they were just going around T34s and just side shot them like enough it's basically a fair armored car with a turret on top and then there's other variants with it looks like mortars. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, it's like, oh man, this is wild. I mean, even there's even like pictures of them in like TTPs and SOPs of hiding it because

it's so small. It's like the size of a forward or car. And you're just sitting here and they're hiding it behind a brick wall. They're just poking the gun out through a brick wall in a house and just going. With the reddled, one of the issues that addressed was that the reddled was not tall enough to see past tall grass. Yeah, so there were like, you know, something that's pretty tall so we can actually spot things now. And it was also fast and it could keep up by her. I don't know, it was someone from 61 mechanized. We said that the RADL really contributed to a lot of the victories in the angle and border war

It's said if the rally wasn't the thing things have been very different. Yeah, I mean like you They're saying that the the Alon it's like the land Possessed the greatest power to weight ratio of any vehicle in the saddest and I mean you just scroll through it and it's just So many different variants. I mean, you just scroll through it. And it's just so many different variants. I mean, the Elan 90, the 60, that's wild. I never knew about the Elan. And then it's just Jesus. And then you just like get into it, because like, especially like we're saying,

like it goes from the Elan to the rattles and then like ATGM start getting involved. And I mean, dude, it's, how do I put this? You're talking about the boars and you're talking about all this stuff and it connects at the end of the day because these guys are fighting with speed in the bush, they wanna see, they wanna strike first.

And it makes sense now because you have the communists who are giving you BTRs, they're not BTRs. They're doing BMPs and T-55s and all these big heavy tanks, but at the end of the day, the saddif and the rodisions are fast and they see you first, they strike first and they move. I mean, even, it's not the rattles, the K cars,

a little fucking aloe wet with a 20 millimeter can, yeah, the cast varies, right? Great car, that, yeah, yeah. I mean, it's just this speed is their defense. Speed is their offense. Like, they don't need, you know, it's the old, I don't need side plates in my body, armor, because I'm moving so fast that you can't shoot me.

And it's just a wild thing that goes back. Go ahead. So with everything going on right here in the discussion, what about the juu political fallout of the Zaphu in the Zainia? The two different comedy groups that were fighting in Rhodesia because Walma supported by the Chinese and Walma supported by the Russians. And they were both fighting in different angles because they wanted to overthrow the Rhodesian government. They wanted to get rid of the capitalist, bring into Communists, but I'm going to look it up real quick. What is the Zappu and the Zainu? So these different political agendas

funded by two completely different countries that were kind of at odds at this point, following the the Sino-Soviet fallout. Is there any kind of remnants of that kind of moving forward in South Africa, these days or like Southern Africa in general because there were so many different groups like like you said there was the the border war in South Africa there's also the Rhodesian bush war but then there was all these different groups cubans Russians Chinese it was ambigot dissipated with one of these to prop important these governments like it what does the fall out from that the problem in these governments. What does the fall from that?

I have to look at a lot of them. This is a zombie. This is a zombie PF. That's essentially a running thing. Stiff and the same party since it's probably going to be sparring. Or well, it's the best way. So it's a zombie PF and it's actually a point I wanted to bring across the herbivorous to why on site tracking they will come back to it, essentially.

Why China wins is that if you, this is a mental exercise which I'm sure with love. When ever a Russian or Chinese delegation meet with each other, and I can promise you you will probably see this from now on that I mentioned it. You will see the sentence due to our historical ties being mentioned so often. I've seen it with different, I've seen it with us whenever we meet with Chinese allegations, Russians due to our historical ties being back to independent or the fighter independence. Chinese Yutu historical ties by the day back to fighter independence. And when we look at why Russian China is favorite are favored, it's because most, and I'll say most, because I mean, there are many,

but a lot of large majority of revolutionary groups fighting against European colonialism or either funded or backed by China, the Soviet-South Koreans, the Cubans. And many of those revolutionary groups are the governments of today, many of those revolution groups are the governments of today many of those countries and then it's easier to understand this to why those governments are very, or let's say less skepticalist why, which I know, you know, wouldn't do that to us as opposed to, you know,

or, yes, it's like that friend that lets you crash in this couch, you know, it's like, Yes, it's like that's friend that lets you crash in this couch, you know, it's like It's like he was cool. He helped me when I was in my boys, you know, like I hold him right it's like Yeah, he wasn't bug me over so yeah, yeah, so I mean I guess in a way It's it's good business right like it's a business relationship now relationship now. It's past the groups running around in Africa. I guess is what you're saying is like now there, now that those groups are in control

or they have historic ties to China and Russia, now that we're in the business stage of things, it's like why would I, you know, they helped us. They gave us guns, ammo and freed us from your governments that you put in place that, Why would I you know they helped us they gave us guns ammo and freed us from Your your governments that you put in place that you know It's like Andy Balam says and screws of poets like they they sat there from the villages and I say that they as in like the Africans the actual Africans not the white European Africans and

They saw the lights they saw the city They didn't really understand what was going on and the Chinese and they saw the lights, they saw the city, they didn't really understand what was going on, and the Chinese and the Russians offered them that. Like, oh, we can give you that city. Here's some guns, go take it out. And now that they have the city, they're like, oh yeah, that's the guy, like you said, I crashed on his garage.

We got T-34s from them, other vukers. So it's actually worse now, in a sense, because these groups have, like you're saying, historic ties. Yeah, and it's hard to dislodge that because, because I'm a US, the US, you can't just go there and say, oh, oh. Like, no, like that one guy you sent me, the, the, the African guy who's like getting lifted up on the stage and he's like and we will take over and That people will rise up and he's being lifted up and you're like what is he like a sheer concert?

And he was like the communist leader of that country. It was like holy shit No, he was like talking about we would take back the people, we will take back the country, and we will take back Africa, and he's just rising and rising. And you're like, I'm gonna focus on a platform and like confetti's shooting everywhere, red flags are waived. And it's like, it's like shit. God damn, like... If it is pan-Africanism. It goes back to like, especially social media, not, I mean, a lot of people, countries are just waking up now.

So I mean, looking for West Africa, I mean, I say no one, but France, I mean, many countries are abandoned in French, they're official language now. And they're just losing influence, and then you're like, why would they stage a coup? And then you look at French policy, it's post-Colonial Africa, you're like, oh, well, when someone heavily promotes extractive industries, when someone prints the currency I use, and they control it. When they support the president, it's essentially corrupt

in my country, but they support them. And the coup happens and then all of a sudden the people that are, you know, must think in forks who is, I'm just saying let's understand this now. All of a sudden the people that are in power are the bad guys, and you're like, okay, why are they bad? Or because they also democratically elected president, okay, who is he friends with?

Oh, the French, okay, what were the French doing? Oh, but it's not the same, you know, but the coup is bad, you know, they're a military unit, they're like, yeah, I mean, they were, you know, working under the president. They're soldiers and citizens. They were satisfied in the end. Something led to that.

You know, we're not addressing the root cause of it. We're not seeing why it happened. And that's the other issue where it's always a... the fact that we just... ...early the West is very reactive towards things. Especially in Africa and they never addressed the root cause to why did this happen? If the far policies or if what we give is so good, then why are they taking things from China? It's like, why aren't you guys accepting the US? It doesn't make my sense. So yeah.

Well, I mean, Cody and I talk about it a lot where Chinese play the economic card, the Russians play the military card, almost in like a civilization video game type of analogy. With someone like Wagner Group creating the African Legion, sending guys into those countries, what is the way to counterbalance that? Wagner group creating the African Legion sending guys into those countries What is the way to counterbalance that because the Wagner groups entire policy is to kill the opposition? Yeah I think that's gonna be difficult because The African Legion is now gonna be under a DM of D so it will be

sanctioned by the Russian government and deputy minister of defense. So it's gonna be something that is gonna be difficult to counter because especially in the junta, you know, the cool build, which is now known as the Junta Health Country. I mean, the remain viable military partners is gonna be Russia, I mean, the remain viable military partners is going to be Russia. I mean, you know, most of them are dealing with insurgencies and they either have the know-how or don't have the equipment or have the equipment or don't have the know-how, for instance, to deal with it, then they would need support. Because they have a coup government that is now ostracized because certain

countries will care more about the government in place that lets them do very fairy things. Instead of fighting real problems like terrorism, they now have to find alternative partners and then Wagner fits the bull perfectly like he said because they're just a good compliment that they'll go in and if the country says listen we did this job done they will help you get the job done same way China gives technology and money to authoritarian regimes right well would you say something like the 1960s with the Bush War and the brod Rhodesian brush war that the Russians and the Chinese know how to win in these areas. So now that the governments have been toppled in Rhodisia and South Africa and the US is still

playing in like say like a pseudo 1970s 1980s platform of give the people, you know, whatever that is the US foreign policies, essentially, whatever that is, we're policies essentially whatever that is we're not doing that But going back to what you said about like gender studies being pushed like Mozambique to fight communism or any insurgent group Is the US told behind the curve are we fighting a war that's already over and the Russians from the Chinese are fighting a new war and we don't know how to actually like stop that Hey To be honest, I believe that the issues that we still think of as a Cold War, the East Rises West, and we don't accept the fact that people don't literal insurgencies, I mean, I don't...

Okay, in the Bush War, and obviously country-wrestled topic, but part of the successes of the religion military was that Genemid or fighting was largely competent. I mean, on the contrary, it was that when, for example, they were placing a mind, they had certain instructions that they got when they were getting training. I forgot if it was China or not Korea. But, for example, you reach the berm of a road, you walk 10 faces, you place a mind on. There was no room for individual taught,

no room for feature, no room for his gravel, you know, his paved. So I'm not going to say that that's why they're asian military, it's so good, but if let's say they were fighting someone like you need a for instance, who knew how to fight conventionally really well, I mean, they did, things might have been a bit different. But I think the bigger issue here is that we, and I say we in terms of the West, don't let African countries find solutions to their own conflicts. I mean, we can go into exactly the outcomes, which was like the first taste of that,

other than my core and the first commando. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Where is like, even Barlow, right? His line is African solutions to African problems. Right? It's like we know that terrain, we know what to do. When we get help, it's usually comes with either bad advice or very baggage driven advice for it's like, I will help you but if you give us access to this right, so I'll give you another example, it can most of you correct, when the insurgency started, initially we had that the advisory group, so it was Colonel Lionel, he essentially was a Colonel in the religion military.

And originally it wasn't an anti-poaching mission, but the Monteriors have started the police hired them because they had mobility, so they had their power, right? They had a lot of helicopters, so they could do fire forces, essentially. And this was working really well, but the problem is that they were quite underpowered in terms of equipment, because I mean, they were there to initially fight poachers, right? Yeah. So, then what happened was, and obviously I'm not like privated to the bind the scene stuff, but I assume this is what happened because I saw what was naturally occurring. Our government started buying more helicopters.

So we started buying more helicopters, we started getting more training with that. And people kept, I know there's this narrative above why isn't most of you accepting, like, we're part of the SATC, the Southern African Development Community. So, in one of its clauses, you can't have, for example, a coalition before you're standing by force before and right to intervene in the conflict and stuff. Can you borrow the card? Yes, I decision to intervene or you know where it's your works, you know, this and that and I noticed that we try, this is the thing I get at least when I looked at it, we try to hold off from foreign help, help for some of the big good.

But then a pivotal moment came where and the State International released a report essentially saying that the mercenaries would be hired to shoot against the villains. And without them understanding that the terrorists wouldn't pursue to to fill in and then what happened is we got a lot of international pressure to not renew the debt contract. So when that happened, who did we get? The Rwandans, we got SATC and going back to Rwanda, they were protecting or

rumours that they were there on the benefit of the French because France has a gas project I'm not at total. So that was essentially France's security force in the way in the region. They also have a vested interest there because now they're propping up security companies, they're propping up other companies up north so they're making money off of this. Then we got South Africa, come here, Tanzania, we got the OSA, the C coalition, so every country brought in a bit and to be fair, they're doing good work, they're trying, right? But some addressing the root cause were if there wasn't a problem or if we could have had the

SADC force, right? Whilst having let's say a mercenary company independently train our guys to then essentially take over their responsibility as you force things to be more natural. But instead the EU stepped into train our guys now. I'm in QRF, so yeah. No, I was better say I'm looking through Bionel Dick and his work in Mozambique and I mean the one thing that stood out is like one, the if you've never done it before, it's how do I put this?

Terrorists are assholes. Um, again, they, like it's just so easy. I mean, there's a guy, I think it's New Zealand, New Zealand or Australian. The Taliban fighter, he shot and killed or looted a South out or a New Zealand SAS guy. And then he just put the gun down. And so the GoPro video footage is just them chasing him into a poppy field after he killed somebody. And then he's like, no, no, no, no, no. Like, yeah, no, dude.

Here it comes. And so it's like, I mean, there's also multiple videos that came out of US ISR watching this guy shoot an RPG at like an armor column drop it Look at the Americans like I didn't do that. Yeah, like guess what like yeah, I mean you can say the root cause is R.O.E. when it comes to attacking like terrorism, but that's a completely separate conversation But it just it goes back to like just I mean dude, we're a word problem I mean we're not part of the problem, but I mean we fight this every day I mean all three of us like people just don't understand what's actually happening and it's like line I'm looking through a lot of dick and it's like some of the photos that he has up on like Google

It's him in aloe wets these old ass-fucking Helicopter saving Africans from terrorists. They're just like like they're sitting really a guy, like, oh, thank you, Christ. Like you're here. Like, we can see it goes right back to the Americans don't know how to approach any single situation. We come in with our own expectations of how it should work and completely throw away the fact that how it does work. In the central national report, it was a very funny thing that happened essentially. It came right after, I believe it was on 2017, the town of Palma was attacked

with this. And obviously, the reason it made World Headlines wasn't because it was under conflict, like you know, another attack in Africa, because there was one involving foreigners, no, a total of foreigners was attacked. I think 50 of them were executed and put into a shell of gray by the therns. And DAG started doing rescue missions with choppers on their own behalf. And a lot of those pictures you see are from that. So there was a rumor that came out. Who spread the rumor? I don't know, was it true? I mean, we saw the pictures, but they're essentially saying that that was saving

lights before blacks. And this is the brother race element into the report, which, I mean, God, like, an African country, firing, you know, a racist group, like I don't know why the racist group would work for them in the first place, but okay. So then the other race element, and dead people told other people that there's just no much about the conflict at hand, and they just saw white mercenaries. For instance, when even Barnwell was fighting against Boko Haram in Nigeria, it was working, they were actually being really effective until they were pressured to drop the contract. And I remember on the articles that came out was so that was because aging white mercenaries fighting Boko Haram. And even though it might not have been a negative sense, you can tell

what type of image that portrays the Western audience. I'm looking through this. And I mean, if there's anything we can take away from this podcast, it's looking into the Dick Advisory Group. He has a 100% success rate in preventing poaching. He made them say it's not anti-poaching. He does counter-poaching. He has 173 square miles, 100,000 acres, all this dude, and he has 100% success rate. This guy literally lives, breeds mean, what do you, I mean, this guy literally lives breath eats shits and lives Africa. And I like it, everything you're saying, like, how is this guy a racist? I mean, it's just, it's good. And that's what I was saying when I said, we three fight this every day of like not knowing. I mean, it's just people picking up the story

and running with it. And it's like, you know, it gets a lot of likes and a lot of fucking real plays and a lot of traction. So I don't care. But I mean, journalists and writers and intelligence professionals, you have a real impact on this. And this is a guy who, I mean, he's an African through. It was real. Second time he was helping us.

Yeah. During a civil war, he was, because our civil war was essentially between, in the ruling party and they were now, they were now essentially, I mean it's for lack of a pair of other projects by the rotation of the African or to have a pro-capitalist thrill of force in Mozambique. And after a decisionGF obviously, now it was involved with, and this involved was then helping most of the fight against Vietnam because Vietnam was threatening the Bay Recorder, which is essentially if you look at the map to the city called Bayerats, B-E-I-R-A, it has

support and that links which is actually goes Not the port itself, but the city has like a link to like the border with some bad word thing that I didn't So I'm all over what was happening was that We're not gonna start ending that quarter. So we basically had the Veriteesian made group that, and so I've reconned back to some extent, for large extent, there was essentially a post independence, and now it's involved with times, not trettings involved, but so what happened was Lionel Dyke was contracted by our government to help fight against him.

So this was the second turn wasn't big. And so he knew it very well, he knew what to do very well. So when their port came out, it was just the dumbest thing ever because it just completely threw away the 20 on your civil war, where his group had him or himself had embezzlement and it was quite effective. The fact that on their own volition they saved civilians, they didn't have to go there, he wasn't even in the contract to go that city in Halpatie did, but because of the fact that terrorists dressed as civilians and his human shields. Now we believe, for essentially, it's terror is propaganda that don't be shots of villains. So it's ridiculous,

because now we have to accept for it, health now. It's... Oh, this is just painful. Well, I know for my own experience, when it comes to the US approaching the African question essentially, is like, I've said it on the bonus episode, but there's a story of a UAV going down in a backyard. And so this farmer calls the US as,

hey, I got your stuff, please come get it before, like, you know, Al Shababur, whoever comes, picks it up. So we show up and we give the guy the money, you're like, hey, he has $250, but then the local like a village elder also wants a $250 cut. And says, if you don't, he says, well, if you don't give it to me, I'm going to kill this guy and take the $250. So the US is like, fine, we'll give out 500 bucks, you get this much, you get this much. And then afterwards, the farmer was still killed because he was collaborating with the US.

And so it's like the US has no idea how to approach this whole situation. And if you're talking about mercenary groups or Russian or Chinese influence the entire region, how the hell does the US even try to combat that when in the public side, how the hell does the US even try to combat that when in the public side, we have destroyed the entirety of the Middle East and North Africa and continent, and then we want to go way more into the brush. Like it's... It's difficult because I can tell you from personal experience as well. Like,

even a few days ago, I should started talking to someone and we were talking about the boomers in the office even different from that common. They were like, I had their Americans involved and all of a sudden it was just like a 10-minute talk about the abagen, they can trust them because they're not your friends and they do this and then I was reflecting on those, like, yeah, I mean that's a sentiment. That doesn't come from nowhere, right? I mean, really, you know, this code, but, you know, they take it off you for instance,

right? I don't want to go to say that. Like, you have always essentially good office alarm. Everyone knows that the US can be your friend at the end. You're more than you tomorrow. Because of something you believe in yourself that probably doesn't harm anyone outside the US's share of influence. And how can you work with someone like that? So how can you trust that what they're doing, which you are, is for you?

Well, I got it once again, we're going down my old job that I can't talk about, but I can, but I can't. You don't make deals with the State Department is what I would say. And it's fuck, bro, like I mean, once the CIA is done with you, they are done with you. It's, yeah, once the CIA is done, it's done. You're upon until you're not. And unless you can apply to somewhere else, like the DOD, for example, department of anywhere, department of energy, for God's sakes, work with anybody but the CIA.

And, but that's the thing. It's like the only people going down into these countries because of communist rebels, Muslim extremists is the State Department. And those are the guys that, you know, they don't, they don't care. They're it Langley for four years at a desk and then they get to go to be a field agent

and then they move up, up, up, up, up, up, up. And then they do other things within the agency. But at the end of the day, you know, we used to say don't fall in love with the partner force, right? Like how many times have we abused the Kurds? They're that ex-girlfriend, they just keep selling, coming back maybe. And so it's like, you know, it's a fault of many things

and to be an American and to go international is to basically bear the burden of the State Department. And it's like your friend said, like, you can't trust Americans. It's like, bro, you can't trust the CIA. And that's who does 90% of this stuff because, I mean, most Americans do care. And I mean, if most Americans would wake up and listen to you guys like yourself for any other international person on the podcast, it would blow their mind. Because they're just like, I didn't, you know, half the time they're like, I didn't even know that was happening. And I mean, like even our didn't, you know, half the time they're like, I didn't even know that was happening.

And I mean, like even our friend Ryan, who came in the last episode said that the US genuinely tries to help people, but it always gets him mucked up somewhere. It's dude, I promise you state department. I mean, many of you, if you haven't listened to it, like episode 10, my dad talks about it. There was a blue on blue between the CIA guys and special forces. They fought each other. And they, the good Northern Alliance fighters died because the CIA didn't want to talk to

special forces and tell the DOD what they were doing. I mean, we do it all the time. And I mean, we can even talk about the intricacies of how the CIA works with anyone else, like the FBI, for example, where to the CIA's intelligence for the FBI, it's information, it's evidence. And they don't even like to work with themselves. So I think if we're going to move forward as, you know, if America wants to move forward, it's got to do one of two things. It's either a gotta, you know, if America wants to move forward, it's got to do one of two things. It's either A, got to, you know, pull the CIA back and that's going to get you shot. God bless JFK. If I can, he's a strong Italian man. No, but I mean, we either got to, he's the anti-Christ, but we either got to pull them

back or we have to step up our game. We have to get out there and go international and like The people who want to be the difference in the world and want to see the US win Or the West win, you know the British the French whenever NATO and or who want to be a part of the West You know, we got to step up and we got to undo that damage and you know like yeah We strip mine cobalt the Congo like there's no come on We got to come back from this like Well, you could also say something well, you could also say something like the idea of

Going back to what he was saying about the counterbalancing the Chinese influence that the entire reason we are in the horn of Africa is for rare minerals We don't care about them. We don't care about the insurgent groups. We care about mining the local facilities that produce phone chips. And those ship manufacturing plants are in Taiwan. And those Taiwanese plants are now being sent to Arizona because we don't really get Arizona in Texas because we don't have any faith in the Taiwanese billy to fight back against the Chinese. Well, they keep, I mean, Cody, you were in Afghanistan. Like, that's the entire reason we were so there for so long.

We just stayed there for so long. It's not the Chinese. So it was like, if the US's entire policy is stopping the Chinese from getting to the next step, they're already winning. Well, because we're fighting in the back leg every single day in a little rink of ding phillage in Africa or the entirety of Afghanistan.

It's, we're already on the back left. Yeah, and, well, I mean, I was talking about this in the general chat today and I was, it's, it's one of those things like we're, we're, we're not leaders of the free world. We are the bosses of the free world. And if we want to make the change, like we're talking about with Chambay report here,

it's like, dude, we gotta put art, you know, we have to get in there and we have to repair these things, you know, like you're talking about with Chambaya report here, it's like, dude, we got to put art, you know, we have to get in there and we have to repair these things, you know, like you're saying, we're just there for the minerals and stuff, but at the same time, like, you know, these are just resource curses. They could be full-fledged economies like South Korea. South Korea has none of the resources that North Korea has, but they became a boisterous economy. And it became that way because we worked with them. We tied our military to them. We became, you know, it's a we thing, not us versus them, or, you know, you can't,

you know, we're in Djibouti, but are we with Djibouti? It's like when your girlfriend becomes pregnant, you're like, we are pregnant. Yes, yes, we are doing this. We are doing this. And that's, and I mean, that's kind of like, you know, when it comes to like these loans

and all this stuff going on, it's like you have two options. You either do exactly what the US tells you. You take all the weight and responsibilities of the things we're telling you to do and you get the loan, or the Chinese just give you the money. There's no third option of, hey, like this is going to take a lot of fuck.

It's the Russians who just smoke check everyone. Yeah, or we could kill you. Like that's the Russian. Um, but the, you know, I guess the fourth option now is, um, you know, somebody's got to get in there and do the work. Somebody's got a, you know, we can, you can take the loan, but I'm also going to, you know, I'm here to stay. Like, I mean, DAG, he's made an entire business model here or there in Mozambique and he's there, he's doing the work. He deserves every bit of, you know, and, I mean, yeah,

people are gonna come around and they're gonna say, like, oh, this white man's exploiting Africa, is he? Or are you just looking for clicks, likes and cons? Yeah, I would have if you'd done, right? Like, so. So, it's like, you're vaults to the list of the houses, call the houses and stuff, but then they go off and build schools. Yeah.

Build bridges and help communities and people to criticize them all the while. It was the last time you went to Africa. Oh, I never went. Okay, buddy, you all know I don't need the dollar a month. It's like, it's just one of those things where it's easier, it's like with the whole China-Africa relation. It's easier for people to understand black and white and it's gray. And it's easier for people to understand the China bad, it was good and but people don't think okay if China's bad why are there more countries because

we're now with the BRI and the Baltimore Initiative when China hasn't been giving up you know those lose billion a billion year, billionaire loans like in the wild now countries are actually having to go to China, Africa, because they're going to go to China to try and get loans, because now it's not a no-promotion, right? So yeah, everyone's getting a billion and that's it. Yeah, and the BRI, so... No, you get to go, man.

The BRI reached 10 years. It was the last year. And now a new shift came, where now they won't be focusing on, you know, there's exorbitant projects that are like multi-pollydolars. Now it's the slogan, the small but beautiful. Right, we're a sec. Smaller, more impactful, and more economically viable projects. And I mentioned this because one of the big issues is that

when people plug up a channel in Africa the first two words are dipped in trap. And an issue that is that if you really look into it, see the love is overblown. Like, do not, do not put a gun to government's head and saying, take this money. And yet someone in the other party has to sign a piece of paper in the end of the day to take that money. And what they do with that money? Another. In this part is like the good and bad, right? What do you do with that money is up to you? Chan doesn't care. If he is at money to buy, I don't know, Scots, or that's by the example, if he's at the buy A.K.s, or high looks isn't all in there to cleanse an opposition. It is up to you. There will be a question stuff, but China just wants to

be a cutting-edge of the day. Is there a conflict of interest when a local government, like contract, in the entirety of Africa, I'm not just talking about Mozambique, when a country takes a loan, like a money loan from China, but they also, like you're saying, have an opposition, and they contract out like some're saying, have an opposition and they contract out some like, you know, former South African defense force mercenary group or something like that or Wagner group. Is there conflict of interest? Is there like a way that the Chinese government kind of looks at this like we're losing money or does the government look at this as a positive? positive. That's a very good question. I'll try to get you an answer. The first place I can really

think of is the Congo, where that's a whole episode in the itself. You have so many players there, but I'd say that last summer, last month, there was a election period there. And China, at least from what I've seen, they've perched things in a very careful manner. And early we were talking about the CA, essentially, its own 10 from everyone else. essentially it's on-down from everyone else and when I see how China operates they're very unified so every section like there's a common goal right, the straight-on interpreters are private-on interpreters, every citizen, it's the whole concept of you know the stars here at everyone's an asset so they're very unified, so they're very... They have to read their own ramp. And let's say with a Congo, for instance, it was election period, and they know that election

period is very important in terms of full wins. So that's when they're really trying to get their objectives out there. And what happens is the conflict of interest, I'm not sure, because they, at least from what I've seen, I can't even have an example of what I was in, if they, they recently gave the coalition, this SADC coalition, MRAPs and ammunition. So, they gave the coalition members an ammunition, so they can give us lethal equipment. And personally, I don't see how having unstable government can really benefit them, because if you have an unstable government, yeah. I was going to say that I think the prime example is some like Molly who was under French

authority for so long and they were fighting their own Islamic extremists and what these Sahel G5 was just incapable. I wouldn't say incapable, but they just didn't talk to each other, but the French were trying to push their own kind of like global war on terror agenda in the region. And then after like the French foreign leagie got ambushed, they sent in paratroopers and smoked check to village. And then after a series of diplomatic fallouts, the French were kicked out. And then Wagner showed up said, who's the problem? We're going to kill all those guys. But also the Chinese sent humanitarians, quote, unquote,

they sent their own soldiers into the country. So there was like the Russians in the Chinese, like you said earlier, that the Russians in the Chinese always say that based on our historical alliance or historical relationship. Like I think that's the biggest question, because the way I was like, it's like Dave Chappelle always says like most people are in the same car. They're not going to the same place.

Like these different agendas and organizations are, like to the US like the Russians and the Chinese are the bad guys but for the Africans I think they're just looking for like this piece of mind so if they have to work with the Russians cool but also there's this existential threat of the Chinese but also if they don't work with the Chinese the US is gonna show up and force you know X amount of like terrors upon them so I think Amali's like a really good example, but I mean, Congo is even better.

Yeah, I mean, in the continent, there's a chance of being the role of being an alternative. There's an important role in the alternative to the status quo, which is between the West, but you also join all of its problems, right? If a conflict happens, you have to be forward, right? I mean, you get a lot of baggage and from like people that analyze Africa have heard two things being said that part and now for example, some countries approach. And those are actually an interesting thing, how some countries approach China and Russia as a way to teach the West into giving stuff

Right, so they like playing a balancing act which in and of itself is risky because She go into that dependent the rest is with you But the benefit of China is that They They have a different history from the US and the continent. The US has a history of interventionist, Becky Kus in the South America. I mean, ever a bit of attention to that. In China, the reputation has been underdog, underdog became up and supporting revolutionary groups over in need not having a history of colonialism in the content, the place that they grew up because

I mean, if we would trust more and not someone that worked with your former colonial power and continue to work with them or someone that has no history of colonialism helped you and will give you a high interest loan but won't mind your business and then won't try and export its own idea of what you should do. So you also see this in, for example, the impact China's had in Africa. I mean, was talking about earlier, but like 70% of Africa's 4G infrastructure was built by Huawei and ZTE, 70%. Yeah.

And they essentially played an enormous role in building the internet infrastructure in Africa. And you have that part, then you have the fact that, okay, we're with the internet, but the access internet, cell phone. For those that know, like, your company is like tech node, their company is like, all, but there are so many Chinese companies flooded the continent and provided people with a means to communicate and then you have another layer many people for instance can't do in the bank or not can't they can but you know they

have to be in the bank account or it's not convenient for them, or be done with regular jobs, and I money deposits at all the time, right? So, is a very popular, I don't know, servicent East Africa called, and Pes, which is essentially, it's like a mobile payment system, using your phone carrier.

And it's the most convenient thing ever. So essentially, let's say I don't know, I do like an on-job again money. I needed deposit this money. I don't have a bank account, that's fine, I can deposit it in the service by, you know, my cell phone. We can even use an SMS phone, like those old Nokia's to access this. The deposit of the money would like, you call it an agent, a guy who manages it, he gives it the money, he puts it in the system, now you have X amount. And with that you can send it to other people, you can pay your water bill, you can essentially do everything, pay your school everything. Well, that's having done the bank account. And you essentially see this in some part, you create a pretty robust sub-economy that's resistance, resistance, economic change

rates. So if the currency collapses, like you're getting, I said, okay, I don't have to recall. Treat bags, so we can treat suitcases full of money, right? I don't even have to on the bank account, I just need my phone. I sent an SMS at the mall, it will not find. And who gave me the infrastructure, in most cases, they had China built that. I used to have Chinese cell phone. It was a very new day, even there's a Chinese, I don't know if it was Chinese music music service that's 75 million subscribers now. Jesus.

And even for example, does an Xi Jinping have a book called, she starts or something like that? He has a biography. Yes, it's like a pseudo red book from Mao. It was recently translated into Swahili. That's like a pseudo red book from Mao. It was recently translated into Swahili. So how are they winning?

Well, culture. Yeah, they know how to engage. You could look at it like they looked at what the US did with the Soviets in the 1980s by pushing like blue jeans, you know, McDonald's, Coca-Cola, juicy fruit gong, everything like that, which is what people want day-to-day to make themselves feel more comfortable. So I mean, there's, I mean, not to go way into a rabbit hole, but there are stories of Soviet soldiers in Afghanistan

in the 1980s selling everything they could get or everything they had to get blue jeans because the Americans are working on them and it's cool. And then you go back to the USSR and they're wearing blue jeans and punk rock clubs. Like punk rock was huge and like the late 60s early 70s and it got to them in 1987. Yeah. When the Soviets came to Mozambique, they were like exporting a lot of the furniture the Portuguese that were left back to the Soviet Union. So it was just good stuff. Like there was a lot of stuff back.

So this is the thing that we're China, it's one of those things where why they're also feeling is because they're like a therapist, but're like, they listen, they engage. Every three years, I forgot the acronym, but there's a China African conference every three years. They won't pull, for example, a Trump, which what he did was arguably, might have said a lot of things back when they called left-wing countries shittles, right? It might seem minor, but yeah, I mean, it doesn't help. No.

Yeah. It's like, oh, we seldom have an Africa, US conference. What do we talk about? Or policies, policies, policies? And the menu you're supposed to go through to be ever see the money. In many cases, I've heard no. I further, I listened to, I've heard that it was an account from this guy who works in mining in Africa. And he said, whenever I liked the US talks about money, we listen but we don't even expect it to come.

We listen, but we don't even expect it to come and That's a very big sign because it just shows you others a trail of an action If people recognize from the US. Yeah, they know that we're not dependable. Yeah We're it's like yeah, they're gonna see they're gonna give us the money, but will they really give us the money? It's like let me talk to China like sure They're gonna give me the money if I don't pay back, I know what's going to happen, but they're not going to bother me. They're not going to make me like a fair elections. They don't go, you know, to buy cars. Oh, what are they doing?

Business. Yeah. As long as I have stable and learned with them top-rated, which I was going back to Matt's for interest, like, they can bend the philosophy of the large large from stable country. I, no, it's, it did. It's, it's painful because it's, at the end of the day, like what we're saying is like, this is like, it's 2024 now. So you're talking about, you're talking about almost 75 years,

like since the 1950s, we've been doing this shit. 75 years of just economic hitman level shit, where we're just exploiting these countries. And it's, yeah, I mean, once again, we talk about things I can't talk about. When you, you get to this level where it's like the cloak and dagger, yeah, but if the cloak and dagger is your primary means of doing business, now 75 years later, like here we are, like you're exactly, it's come home to us. And like if we had just like, even in the book, he's a peace core guy that gets recruited by the NSA to understand contacts, local, understand local customs, and then he goes back

to his little refugee camp where he goes back to his little refugee camp where he's supposed to be. He was an well-intentioned individual trying to contribute to the economy of what was an Indonesia when he started. And then he came back and the NSA was like, we're feeding this to the CIA, or we're going to get all these. And the best analogy I can think of is like Cody, if you had a jar of ice cream, but no spoon, and I ate a spoon, I'm like, is like Cody if you had a jar of ice cream but no spoon and I had a spoon

I'm like I give it to you like well now we share 50% of that is mine because without my support you can't eat it and so that's the way the US approaches things and it's really funny to see that the Chinese have really adopted that kind of way of thinking without the cloak and dagger it's's, yeah. It's short term, though, is the issue here. And that's the problem, but that's one of those things. It's not short term, it's short term for the Chinese. It is long term for Africa.

It is middle to short term for America. And I say this because it's like, these loans are gonna hit in like 10, 15, 20 years. But the guys who signed that paper won't fucking be in power. They'll be gone, dude. They'll have made their money in bounced. And so, I'm making one of the people in the face,

I make money and I bounce. And so, but I mean, if we had started in the 1950s doing good, solid, reputational business, 75 years later, where would Africa be? Where would we be? This wouldn't even be a discussion. Like, it- I mean, if you asked the average American what the perception of Africa is, if number one shithole, because Trump said it, and number two, it's badass mercenaries in the Congo. Like, that's pretty much it. It's-

You're using it. Or, yeah, it's so cool. You know, perception is reality for the majority of the American population, but what if something like Sri Lanka a few years ago, is it two, three years ago? They had a revolution in their country. Yeah, they were defaulting, and so the Chinese sent in their military to secure every airport, port, and train station because they were like, we built it with our money. You just happened to build the infrastructure. And so is there a kind of like existential threat with that with most

African countries? Because I know someone like Ethiopia was like hesitant to jump in, but if they're also jumping into bricks, do they see more pros and cons? So yeah, that's actually something I want to talk about. So depth, let's say forgiveness is a big part because I believe it's going to be this server they're going to have a new China Africa conference. And now with how the BRI is changing into much more petite form, we're going to do more impactful projects that I think it's considered small if it's under 50 million dollars for instance So I'm not talking about like billions upon billions, right? Yeah, so a big portion that's gonna be you know That forgiveness the outcome work on that stuff because people forget that okay

It won't benefit China to be a blood out when it comes to that because then no one's gonna want to take it benefit China to be a blood outman, it comes to dead because no one's gonna want to take it. Right? If you're like a loan shark in your city and you're known for like, if someone doesn't pay you're not really very bad things, yeah, I was gonna go somewhere else with that, but you're not for doing very bad things and no one's gonna be your customer, right? It's like what benefit is there with someone talking to you, right? So China can't just take, take, take, take, especially taking these things that they built. I mean, it's much more, but the damage might, they play the long game, right?

Yeah. The control as much as they can. And to have control as much as you can, it's easier to do that with stable governments, that you know, sort of governments of the day. So debt restructuring is going to be like a big deal. I don't think they want that because the day that they having a lot of debt just hurts the person that's giving out to that. I mean, yeah. So when you talk about refinancing debt and you talk about interest rates and these things,

these loans are ridiculous. You're saying we were talking about it before, and the interest rates are like, what the fuck is that? And so it becomes this, you give me a loan that's absolutely dog trash of a 25% interest rate over a five year period. And you're like, oh, well, when you make this dam, you're going to make all that money back and we'll be fine.

But it doesn't, right? Like, you fudge the numbers, whatever. And so when you come to me in three years and I'm defaulting on the loan, you say, all right, hold up, hold up, hold up. You know, let's, let's talk about this. And by now we've already had a presidential election, Cody's gone, Matt's in. And so what you do is you go, okay, let's do this. Let's go. We'll take this five-year

loan, we'll turn it into a 15-year loan, we'll take the interest, you know, screw 25, let's do 5%. But let's talk about new business deals. Let's talk about putting more on the table here. And so it becomes this, you know, you're not a jackass now. Oh, thank you. Thank you so much. You're saving me from my 25% APR Mustang. But, you're not a jackass now. Oh, thank you. Thank you so much. You're saving me from my 25% APR Mustang, but now you're selling me a golf cart and ATV. And it's like, before I know it, like my whole life, it's enslavement through like, you know,

you give a mouse a cookie. And it can, and I guess what I was trying to get through with like that monologue is like, you can beat this. You can beat this by good, solid business, good, reputable business, building with each other, not exploiting the other person. And then, hey, you're not gonna see millions of dollars in the first five years, but 10, 20, 30 years down the line,

our kids will see astounding results. And you know, you're talking about a country that still the golden age of capitalism as an under Eisenhower was literally brought in under the Marshall Plan was rebuilding Europe after World War II. Think about how much wealth could be created for Africa and the West if we just pulled our sleeves up and worked together and stopped trying to screw or, you know, we stopped trying to screw Africa over. We, you know, we tell you, like, hey, you can go with China. China will give you this deal, but, you know, this is a fair deal. Like, and, you know, ex everything I just explained, you know, you explain to them, like, he's going to, this

is what he's doing. And, but, you and I have talked you know, you explained to them, like he's going to, this is what he's doing. And but you and I have talked about that with the fallout of like the global war on terror that everyone always complains about narcotic trafficking in Central and South America. Imagine if that money could be redistributed, if we never had the war to those regions, like it's a, I do, I do. It's a, it's a bigger plan. It's a bigger problem than just saying like, hey, the US can help. It's a systemic issue within the US like political sphere.

Yeah. What to do with money. And so you get like one person can say, oh, we're always in debt. We always spend money and start wars. You're like, cool. But also like just the other day, we attack Yemen. Is that a declaration of war? Maybe. Like, so it's we don't know how to deal with the world. So instead of the US standard procedures to punch them into submission for something, something more complex complex is just work with them.

Well, I've choked with, I've choked with Sean Bay all the time about this, about how like if Israel had gone to Madagascar instead of Palestine, like Mozambique and Israel. Like the Nazis wanted to in the first place. Hell yeah, bro. But we'd have a toll booth. Oh, we'd have a Nazi on our hand. We have a... Mozambique and Madagascar would have a toll booth. We would be...

You got to pay it across this ocean. It's just a matter of, you know, Hey, who's going to do... At the end of the day, who's going to come with money? Who's going to roll their sleeves up? And who's going to give Africa a chance? And it's not China. China's just like, Here's some money.

Oh, it screwed up for you. Yeah, you signed it. Yeah. That's what you're talking about. I don't want to do the IMF. Well, that's another issue, right? The problem is the US can't share this idea of morality with certain governments that are like, let's be honest, they're very cruel. Governments imprison you for speaking badly about them. I mean, many people in the US complain about no freedom of speech, the US can't buy no freedom of speech but they don't have for what no freedom of speech means, I mean, let's be real. Well, I mean, even the country of Somalia that if you have any propaganda on your phone, it doesn't matter if it's like a meme or if it's like anything like against the government,

you're still considered an enemy of the state because you have propaganda that could be hinted towards extremism. Yeah, it's like in Tanzania. If you walk around, I don't know if it's still on, but I cannot 10 years ago, it's so a thing like if you were in no fashion camouflage, like a camo, but you know, like the, yeah, that's highly illegal. If you were that it's, you're gonna get pulled over, like you're gonna get in trouble. So, when they use most approached countries like DAS, it wants to foster approaching what they're more

or understanding of what things should be, but they don't accept the fact that people live differently than you do, right? He doesn't see X topic the same way you do. He doesn't care about this. It doesn't mean it's not culturally relevant to him. Right? So then it makes it more difficult to engage

because the Chinese know how to engage Africa. I mean, many, many, many, many African journalists certain are trained in China. Many of them get scholarships to go to China, they get a link. I'm going to show the figure. I think it was around the grand amount, that their housing is paid for, the food is paid for.

And then when they come back to Africa, and let's say a political issue is happening, with someone in both China, they're able to then say, no, no, let's not talk about this, China's not like this, let's maybe steer it in this way, right? Well, I mean, they also do that in Australia. The Chinese foreign exchange student program goes into Australia, Canada. Yeah, they go right to that, target demographic of like, oh, the youth always wants to revolt against their parents. But I don't know if like something like that,

because in like, say like Australia, Canada, US, England, the anglosphere, the youth usually wants to revolt against the previous generation. And it's really targeted opportunity for the Chinese like sink in say like, oh, we're the good guys. But like, I mean, you're from Africa, I've been there. It's they're more intricate, they're more like localized based. And so in the bigger, bigger picture, what is the best way to approach not so much a US option, but like a stability in the region. It's the truth. It's what you say. Absolutely. Southern Africa. Southern Africa. Like how do you stabilize that? Me. It's funny enough I think it was last year and the only region that didn't have any

issues like losing stuff so it's perhaps to us. We did it. We did it, boys. But okay, so then how did they do it? Again. Yeah, that's the thing, right? Um, so as if it's just a little bit of a little bit. Um, we have things like the SADC, which genuinely, I mean, we have a coalition to continue doing good stuff. Like, genuinely does bring sort of vision and sort of agenda to everyone can work on.

And for instance, like, why the many African militaries, like, well, it's either where it's so quite a dissucutting war, or whether it's second, like, what's considered conventional combat, is because many of them go in with another clear idea of what they want to achieve in mind. So I go, okay, I've defeated the enemy, but I still have an environment to which the enemy can come, essentially, and be barred from again. So they don't address the courage, or I'm fighting an enemy across its borders, but I don't talk to my neighbor.

And it's like, if you have a unified front, it's a lot more easier, and I know that, for example, the SATC, they're always meeting, I mean, there's essentially one part of the state meeting all the time, so it's difficult to read the sludge, right? I mean, you have, for example, I guess it's the same reason why a lot of cuss happened in my saffron, or it's the's the coupbell now because they talked to each other, the cool leaders for sure. Yeah. They have an idea. One coup happens.

Why does it happen? With this government is basically corroborating people from outside cooperating. We have the same problem. Well, what did they do with this? Oh, they're military. Like one man took a stand and they were going everywhere. Oh, I did that. Next neighbor.

I also have the same problem. The franchise was on my country. My president, he's stealing money. His son's always taking trips and stuff like that, right? What can I do? Oh, my general. It's still. So, and going back to what they said earlier, were the only region that did not have any problems? What problems? And

who's definition, right? Because we still have one party states in power right. Neumann Stafrika at this point is now being ostracized because they have cool governments like Nichear they have a cool government normally to assume them but if you want to go there the report is being one of the fastest growing economies in Africa. They're kind of fast so we can be asking Russia to build a nuclear power plant in their country to have African African African African African African African African African African African African African African African African African African African African African African African African African African African African African African African African African African African African African African African African African African African African African African African African African African African African African African African African African African African African African African African African African African African African African African African African African African African African African African African African African African African African African African African African African African African African African African African African African African African African African African African African African African African African African African African African African African African African African African African African African African African African African African African African African African African African African African African African African African African African African African African African African African African African African African African African African African African African African African African African African African African African African African African African African African African African African African African African African African African African African African African African African African African African African African African African African African African African African African African African African African African African African African African African African African African African African African African African African African African African African African African African African African African African African African African African African African African African African African African African African African African African African African African African African African African African African African African African African African African African African African African African African African African African African African African African African African African African African African African African African African African African African African African African African African African African African African African African African African African African African African African African African African African African African African African African African African African African African African African African African African African African African African African African African African African African African African African African African African African African African African African African African African African African African African African African African African African African African African African African African African African African African African African African African African African African African African African African African African African African African African African African African African African African African African African African African African African African African African African African African African African African African African African African African African African African African African African African African African African African African African African African African African African African African African African African African African African African African African African African African African African African Denar of the viz, the Junta is bad. Who is Naira the Willow? It's the thing, right? Yeah, who's that?

It's the whole thing. It's the whole thing. Yeah. It's difficult to answer. No, I mean, yeah, it's a complex issue that you can't just to stabilize the region is to understand the region first. And you can't, you know, and that's hard for us because, you know, we've spent so long just exploiting the region that we're like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, I have to get to know you. And I'm like, and so I mean, we've talked about it at length where it's just, you know,

there's not enough training being done for all forces from America, from the American standpoint. There's no training. You know, how do you, like, my wife who went to Cameroon, like, there's French and English speakers. They didn't train her to speak French before she went there. She, oh, shit, I better learn French. Like, they're like fuck, bro. And so it's like, or the fact that the French were killing the English speakers and broad daylight and hacking them to death like and You know, they're just not prepared for it and they don't want to understand it. It's almost as if like When it comes when the time comes it'll come and we'll be like well how did this happen? It's just like you're saying like who's a problem to who well we better learn who is

Like who are they and so it's just, it's wild. It's wild that we've been on this fucking earth for how many fucking years and we still don't even know each other. Are you fucking getting me, bro? Like, you could, so, but we've been here for an hour 40. Do, uh, you got any parting remarks? Besides following Shalbe report on Instagram. Oh, thank you. But yeah. Um, yeah, I mean, it's just when, let's say the next time you're, you know, headline, like, I don't know, that trend, cobalt, mining and things like that. And I'm genuinely not portraying it, but I don't understand the situations that occur because

of issues. We have to understand, okay, why is this being overblown, who's giving me the news? And why is this being given? Am I supposed to pick a side? Right. And, you know, I urge everyone to just take a deeper look. Don't just see the content, don't fetishize it for certain conflicts that happen in certain countries.

Do you say there's a, would you say that there's a news media outlet or a website that gives very unbiased clear-cut analysis of what's going on. There are... The best for what type of news you want? If you want the economic, I try and read like both sides, so like China is going to be stuff. And then I read, you know, do you know Western like, afterwards and stuff.

Then you can read between the lines, I mean, one will see, PRI has been great, you know, 10 years have been strong, you know, Bricks is going to be good and... And everything, but then the other one says, oh no, they're not that threat and this like that For China stuff I would say there is a Can I plug in under podcast? Yeah go for it But they're very good genuinely very good their website does behind quite a few paywalls But that's because it's a good work. I mean it's called the

If you get this right and it's a good work. I mean, it's called the, um, if you get this right, and it's China in Africa, which I put my phone. One minute. Yeah, so it's like called the, you see, it's like the China and Africa podcast. Okay. Yeah, China and Africa podcast. Yep. called the China Global South Project. Very good. The difference between them and not really like, or where an African tank tank is that, to actual African's there, they're not all in Washington, somewhere in Mauritius, one guy is in Johannesburg,

and you get pure views, the interview, another good one. The interview people from like Afro-Barrameter, I don't know if you guys heard of that. Afro-Barrameter is essentially the highest echelon poll, like poll opinion piece, like gathering website, or group, I should say, like in the content, they're very good to get stuff that I think most

governments are upset that they do get like opinions. Did that one once ago I think on how the Sinovab was elite, like Middle-Clastile elite feels about China, I believe. So they do a lot of good work, I would follow them. And obviously my page. If any of the other questions, I sell for the plug. No stress, cash plug. Don't go business. Well, my friend, I think this has been such a good episode. What is this?

An hour or 44, 37 seconds. But yeah, but I'm too happy to spend it. No, no, it's not. Yeah, that's what done. All right, bye bye.