Kitbag Conversations - Proto Kitbag 10: On Culture and Failed States

Episode Date: May 2, 2024

This week we are joined by Ahmed Hassan, the CEO and founder of Grey Dynamics (@greydynamics) , a London based private intelligence organization with accreditations from the European Union, the Government of the United Kingdom, and several other national level organizations. This week we speak about: - Ahmed's background as a Somali refugee, financial expert and intelligence professional - Background regarding failed states in Africa - and the cultural overlap between  nations  You can view his work at https://greydynamics.com/

Hello everyone and welcome back to the show. This week I'm joined by Ameth Hassan, the CEO and founder of Grey Dynamics, a London based private intelligence organization. And I'm very interested to see what we have to talk about this week because there's a lot going on. So Ahmed, how are you? I'm very good man, how are you? I'm pretty good myself. Good. Yeah, so as thank you for introduction, my name is Ahmed Hassan. I run Gray Dynamics is Ahmed Hassan. I run Grey Dynamics based in London, founded in 2017 but honestly really started to get going end of 2018 beginning of 2019. I am Dutch but the company Great Dynamics is based in London but me myself right now I'm based in Stockholm Sweden. I know it doesn't really make that much sense but this was pretty much the only not under lockdown. At the time, my girlfriend, now wife, lives here. So I was traveling back

and forth from London to Stockholm and kind of stuck around here and I'm here right now and before Gray Dynamics I was a contractor in intelligence, mainly worked in East Africa, Somalia, Kenya, Tanzania, Ethiopia like with some outings into Mali, Niger, Chad, but mainly East Africa. And before that, I worked in CT, Counterterrorism, as a human intelligence practitioner, practitioner and mainly in Somalia and Kenya and did that for five, six years and before that I was in finance which seems like a lifetime ago now but got into finance just as the financial crisis happened in 27, 28 and so when that happened got a little bit disillusioned with the whole finance world and banking in general. What do you mean disillusioned? Was it just like a flash in a bang or was it the whole 2008 crash that really made you want to step away? Well just to give you this is the example that I give some people when they ask about this. In 2006 I was still in school I think was my last year

and 2006 I was already working for a financial institution in Germany and mainly in large-scale real estate securitization and I was responsible for finding projects for overseas investors and trying to like bundle them all together and make them interesting for other investors basically. And where I was, at the time big part of my salary was based on big part of my salary was based on commissions and bonuses. So I remember in a good year, I would do, sorry about the ambulance the background if you heard that but I would do like anywhere between eight and 12 transactions per year and I was still very young and early in the industry and then in 2007, 2008, beginning of 2008. Actually 2008, I did one transaction the whole year. So I'm sure after that you were ready to leave. Yeah and just you know, got really cutthroat and people that you thought were your friends were not your friends and

we're not your friends and I stepped out and I just like wondered pretty much I started traveling and I traveled for around a year. I think I traveled to 28 countries and many of them in Africa and for people wondering the reason for that is I was born story on itself but we traveled to at the time I was living and I know this sounds super bizarre but I was living in Iran and my parents were living in Somalia and they came to pick me up in Iran. I was supposed to go to Canada where we had family but we had a layover in the Netherlands in Amsterdam and when we got off the airplane the Dutch authorities like walked up to us and basically my mom at the time was six months pregnant, you're not allowed to fly if you're six months pregnant. I don't know how they got it that on a plane in the first place

but because everybody's wearing like big black robes in Iran women are at the time. My mom was able to hide at the time my sister and but in Amsterdam they said hey, we know who you are and you need to have your kid here and it's possible to do so and we decided to, my parents decided, my father wasn't there the government at the time and he was the head of counterintelligence which I think maybe inspired the direction that I went in later later in life but so that time 1991 was or let's say 1989-88 was the last time I saw Somalia and before I went back in 2010. So that whole period I grew up in the Netherlands, went to school, had an amazing childhood there and I ended back and obviously where your roots are I think for a lot of people I have a lot of sympathy for people with refugee backgrounds because I can empathize for people with refugee backgrounds because I can empathize and probably also on one of the other reasons why I'm interested in conflict and understanding where these things go. But

I ended up in Somalia and Kenya first and my father at the time was rebuilding the Somali police after 25 years or Somalia being a failed state. So got an opportunity to go back to see things and to experience and I was kind of like roped into this murky world of intelligence and the rest kind of history, I mean you can go into it if you want to but I did that for a good number of years and private sector and then in 2016 I moved to London and went back to school because really I wanted to become a better writer and I saw myself much more as an analyst than somebody who was out there collecting and than somebody who was out there collecting and so that was for me, I don't know the best way to explain that but I think you know this but yeah I liked the writing aspect, I love research, I like, I love research, I love reading and so I kind of like rolled into a job that

was not my first choice but I love doing it and but what I really wanted to do was right and I show my work and obviously in intelligence particularly if you're working for a government you cannot share that kind of stuff so or majority of the stuff that you do will never see the light of day. So went back to school, went to Brunel University in London, world famous Intel program, really enjoyed my time. Some of the teachers are practitioners themselves, still active. I think the course director is a good friend, Christian Gustafsson. I believe he's a Colonel in the British Army and yeah, I had a really good time and I met my business partner, Seju Kim from South Korea and together we started Great Dynamics in London and this is now six years later. So yeah. Six years later. So, yeah, there's certainly an oppressive resume jumping all over essentially from finance, which has there's a little analysis that goes into that. But I'm sure it is. And then to now where you're like, I've been all over what East Africa and I know what's going on down to the local level. And I could write an intelligence assessment like nobody else. So you might have mentioned this

before but when you started getting into the private sector with your human abilities, did you seek out companies that focused on East Africa so you can get back there or has it just kind of fallen to your lap? Well, I didn't from like a perspective what I wanted to do, I looked more at analytical roles and less at human and secondly, I was not really interested in going back to Somalia even though I love the country and I love the people. People always ask me, do you feel Dutch or do you feel Somali? That's like choosing between your mom and dad. It's a very difficult one but bottom line, it's super corrupt. It's very murky. Today somebody's your friend, tomorrow is your enemy. I've seen a lot of guys that were awesome human beings, losing their lives

because they thought that somebody was their brother and they were somebody their cousin I remember in my time that I was there, the interior minister had a cousin that he brought in to work with him as a young lady and sent her to school and everything and she got seduced to that lifestyle of terrorism and Al-Shabaab and she blew herself up in front of him and that's like, he was like her father, the blood and it was a very lonely existence. You do your work and then you go back into a compound and you don't see anybody, you don't interact really with anybody except for the people we work with or your, well my father at the time was there but and some friends but it's a very lonely path. So I didn't search that out to go back to Somalia, I wanted to stay in London, I really love that city

and so I looked mainly for analytical roles and I applied and I thought with the languages that I know, with the experience that I have, I shouldn't have a problem finding a job but I had a huge problem because I applied so many places and I couldn't find anything. I wasn't even invited for interviews for whatever reason. I can guess but I did my best and I just couldn't get anything and I was like, you know what, instead of waiting for people to offer me a contract with Great Dynamics and that was bizarre but that's been the story so far that I think it has something to do how you carry yourself I guess. Now this just came to me while you were talking but would you, because you and I, we both

work in the intelligence community and understand that it all comes down to financing. The financier is the most important key to any kind of insurgent group or local government or national level assets. So would you say that your prior finance skills and a career in that field, benefited your work in say East Africa because I mean it comes down to a dollar so regardless if your friends or family or blood, it's yeah, who has more money, who's going to pay me? Yeah, I mean it's a big component. I think also in the beginning they try to kind of push me into the direction of counterterrorism, finance and anti money laundering which I thought was boring and

I'm not trying to throw shade on anybody that does that job because it's very important work but to me it was just not that interesting but you're right. I think from all the work that I've done in different sectors when it comes to violence, terrorism, conflict is not as much driven by ideology as people think, mainly the heartliners, yeah, those are true believers but the majority of the foot soldiers and some of the lieutenants even they're in it to have a better life. To us as outsiders, it sounds bizarre, why would you join a terrorist group to have a better life? So imagine how their life is before that. And in countries like Somalia, which at the time when this group came to arise, it was a failed state. So these guys brought a sense of order

and that's how it always goes. The group comes in and they offer some semblance of governance and then they come in and you have to have an like, it's absolutely heartbreaking when this happened, when this group came to power. Before that, like I would speak to people, elderly people, mainly in Mauritius and they were talking about Mohammed Farah Adil. Yeah. Okay. about Mohammed Farah Adin? Yeah, okay. I mean, he was a major figure, you know, and his group. And like for us, I remember when I was a small boy, when you know, Black Hawk Down happened,

and I remember vividly, as a kid seeing the bodies of American soldiers being dragged because I don't think people talk about that enough, they talk about the heroics obviously and the incident itself but the aftermath was the truly horrific part where dead bodies of American soldiers were dragged to the streets and I remember my mom, we were watching TV and my mom was crying and outside of the fact was horrific thing to see. She said, this is the end for our country. And it was because after that, America pulled out, most of the UN pulled out and they were left to their own devices. It was basically like an apocalyptic hellscape it became and

it was that pretty much until this terrorist group turned up and they kind of like clean the streets and I remember I've heard stories, horrible stories of where people were just being like girls were being, I don't know if your audience wants to hear this but you know, horrible things happened to women and in broad daylight in front of their parents and or husbands and when this group came to power, that kind of thing stopped but as you know, when you have that kind of power, it's a matter of time before it corrupts you too and you start doing that and you start becoming the aggressor. And then when you talk to these people, they're like, yeah, you know, I wanted to escape being a victim. And then before you know it, you become, you know, you become the perpetrator. while we're talking about essentially the 90s window of Somalia.

I don't, I'm not sure if a lot of people know this, maybe you're, you probably do, but a deed son, who's saying was a Marine in our, like an U S Marine in the 90s and the late 80s, early 90s, and came over to the U S got a college education, joined the Marine Corps, was attached to a two nine and went to desert storm. And then when operation, let me, let me see this one, restore hope came up in Somalia, he was picked as the translator to speak between the local Somalis on the U S military to make sure everyone was on the same plane. And so when his dad died, he went, Oh, I'm just going to go back to Somalia and take over this, this tribe,

this insurgent group that we just went over there and helps fight essentially. And so he came back and was in charge of the Somali group or the Somali national Alliance, the political organization. And then from there, you can almost do a simple association going, he's like, Hey, if the Americans ever come back, I know how to beat them. Cause I was with their best branch. So it's, and it's, it's like a really under focused topic, but I'm sure the UN after they left, yeah, after the UN, the U S left after blackhawk down, they saw, Oh, wow, this guy was a Marine in the U S military who was there. He understands the situation. We could really work with them.

And he was like, not a chance. It was like, no, this is, this is Somalia. You don't tell me what to do over here. It's bizarre man and you know there is this like Somalia is they say that it's another name for the country is the land of poets. Yeah, so Somalia is the land of the poets and one of Somalia's most well-known freedom fighters. He was active for 20 years, an insurgency against the British who were at the time running north and South Somalia was later on sold by the British to the Italians, if I remember correctly and he was above all outside of his fighting prowess, he was a poet and a warrior poet in the truest sense of the word. Eventually he lost I think due to like smallpox

or something like that or a lung disease after 20 years of fighting but a lot of sayings and small poems come from that time and this is somebody once told me that it could also be from because Somali is a nomadic culture mainly and that comes because of the influences from the Middle East. Most of the tribes in Somalia, our clans, they came from Yemen hundreds of years ago and there's this famous saying that goes, first it was my neighbor or my country, then it was me against my other clan, then me against my clan, me against my family and in the end it was me against my brother. So in that somewhere, the most important thing in Somalia, you would think, you know, it's a Sunni Muslim country, it's religion, but it's not, it's clan, which really goes through everything. The civil war was started because of that. A lot of issues today exist. So Muhammad Farah, if I had to like guess, even though he went to America, got his studies, was a marine and swore an oath and loyalty to the

US, in the end it was his clan that called and he answered that call which is to me, I can understand because the amount of pressure that brings with it or it could as well be that he just wanted to have power. We see this popping up all over in Africa specifically, because it's down to that tribal mindset. It's not as clean cut as just a border. It's like, hey, you're Ethiopian. They're like, that doesn't mean anything to me. I am from this tribe. That's who I am. And we can see that in Libya, where it's also a conglomeration of almost a confederation of the willing with smaller different tribes located throughout that just that box that was controlled by Colonel Gaddafi for so long. And then today we have a situation where the current leader of the opposition who's a not for the U S, um, Khalifa Haftar is an American citizen who has a house in Langley and as soon as the civil war kicks off, he goes, Oh, I'm going back.

It doesn't, I don't care where I'm at or who's going to, who's going to win. I'm going to win. I'm going to go take over and steer this country in the right direction. Cause I understand how to work for it. And so if we have someone like a deed or someone like half tar going, yeah, the West has no idea how to control or even operate in Africa to just stay away. We know how to deal with our own issues. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it didn't work out as well for him but maybe that's because of the wrong allies

and who Haftar or Adib. Haftar, he's a whole Heftar, Russia, France, UAE, that Gulf block, Egypt. Like for some reason, the Turks were able to tip that scale favorably to the other side and stopped him from consolidating power. As much as I can tell about Libya, I've been following and I've done some work there but in India more broad strokes and it's in Somalia's case was a bit different because there were not many major powers involved at the time. Before like full story was they were independent and then the British and then the Italians I believe and then they got independence again and then here they are. Yeah and well you know you have to also understand that you know the democratic system, the system of governance that is known mainly throughout the Western world and most of the civilized, I don't like that

word, let me rephrase that, also the industrialized world, that system is new's a lot of community-based justice and order that prevents, it is very decentralized. So a centralized way of governance is like still in its infancy. The US has a still young system compared to Europe, for example and so there are a lot of growing pains and let's also be honest about the influence of the former colonial powers. So that definitely tipped the scale, this very famous story about when France left some of the countries. I think I'm not 100% sure so please people listening to this don't attack me on it but I don't remember 100% what country it was but I think it was the CAR. 100% of the country it was but I think it was the CAR when they left they even took the doorknobs just out of spite, also like extreme pettiness and when the DRC Congo became independent, chose Patrice Lamumba as their first prime minister

and in his first speech basically he gives a scathing view of what the Belgians did and he was hungry for the second. Sorry? King Leopold the second. Yeah, you know, and his son was there and was it his grandson, I'm not sure but and you know, they got him killed with the help of the CIA allegedly. I don't know if it's ever proven but I think it was but yeah there has been and this was mainly like communism against capitalism. So we cannot let the Russians run it, so we need to get rid of all of this self-determined, so socialist speak because most of these leaders, they came from that school of thought and even though they were not really aligned with the Soviet Union. I think on that topic, a lot of the European powers after they left and there's different echelons of like how the French

dealt with it, how the British and the Belgians dealt with it. Their method of attacking the situation essentially was who cares about what happened in the past? Let's deal with the situation right now. But all these recently independent states were going, no, we have to essentially build from the ground up. Because if you'd say, yeah, they took the door down, we don't have a house, so we're outside. So we have to start over. And if you look at someone like the French, they left, but they didn't really leave because they have so much investment into Western Africa, where it's almost like a quasi empire, where they put a lot of money into funding local schools and they teach them French as well as their local indigenous language. And they also fund the local healthcare systems and roads and infrastructure.

And so they're still there. And we can look at the Sahel G5 where they're fighting Al-Qaeda or ISIS. They were calling the French to help or with more of the French walking in and handling the situation because they're saying this is our backyard, don't touch it. But then you have someone like the British who went, you want independence? Fine. And they just left. So the different ways of how these different countries decided to leave. And so that's when someone goes, we're independent now, the Soviets haven't really done us any wrong. So let's just go with them. And then you have also offshoots situations like just the south southern part of Africa, or the Congo, where there was that international coalition of essentially

just mercenaries just going there to have fun in their mind. So in their mind, they were probably trying to fight socialism or communism. But it was, there's good documentaries out there about the Congo. That whole situation was just a mess. Absolutely. I think even like them they switched over two years ago but they have the franc right, the French currency still and them having their own currency who stipulated that I think something of like 10% of their reserves out of those foreign currency or their own needed to be in French banks. Well I believe in states like Niger where the French get a lot of the uranium deposits. So that's why they're so involved as they put so much time into

so involved as they put so much time into just basic functionality of how the French state would work. They have to rely on their back door or something like Algeria that they were, they left that tooth and nail. They fought to the very end. So in Algeria would not be independent, but when it came to Tunisia, they're like, Hey, you can have it. But it is kind of funny though, the thing big picture that the two usual recognized failed States in Africa, Somalia and Libya were the only two Italian colonies. I don't know if that has something to do with it, but it's kind of fun to just look like, man, the Italians really fuck that one. Oh, it's a good point.

I never thought about that really. That is a good point. Yeah. Well, it's something funny when it comes to say the different ways of how nations left Africa, everyone kind of overlooks Italy, because they had Libya and they had the Horn of Africa or Somalia. And they also invaded Ethiopia in the 30s. And so they essentially on the Horn of Africa and Libya where they had Libya is where most of the oil comes out of Africa and it goes into Europe. But we have a current situation where someone like the British, usually if something comes up in Kenya or Nigeria or Burkina Faso, they go, okay, we're going to help. We're going to try some way because we are partially responsible, but the Italians wash their hands clean. They're like, I'm not touching this. So

then you have all these refugees leaving Libya or the coming from Somalia all the way through Sudan and Ethiopia, sometimes Egypt into Libya and the crossing the Mediterranean. And then getting dumped off into the getting roped up by the Italian Navy and dumped off and like essentially prison camps in Sicily. And the Italians are like, I don't want them. Someone take care of them. It's. But it's like, what would the Libyan or the Somali do? Would they go to Greece? No, culturally in recent memory, they know that Italy is where most of their issues come from. So if you look at it that way, I might be just going way too

deep, just on a fringe thought. Maybe it's like the chickens come home to roost. thought but maybe it's like the chickens come home to roost. Oh yeah, where if you have like Egyptians they usually go to United Kingdom or Syrians they usually go to France because France you sit on Syria but they're not going to Turkey. To be fair with you, from what I know because I have family members that crossed the Mediterranean, you know that as they fled and then went all the way to Libya and this was under Qadhafi still. I think geographically Libya, Italy is also the shortest route outside of Gibraltar and most people that go to Italy, Italy is not their first, it's their first entry into Europe but it's not where they want to stay. Everybody wants to go to the UK or Germany or Scandinavia is also a big destination. Big, during the Syrian war I think

during the Syrian war I think at a certain time Sweden was taking like 60,000 refugees a month. You also have to look at and I don't mean to cut you off but Algeria, Morocco don't like each other and then from there you have Spain and Morocco who we see all these videos coming out every day of refugees trying to leave Morocco that are coming from Nigeria or another West African state and they're going from Morocco trying to interspane the Spanish are like, absolutely not. So coming on a boat, you're in international waters. And from that point, if you're in a military naval vessel, you have to pick them up according to the United Nations to give them medical care. And then they go to Sicily.

And then from there, they could just do a one hop wherever they need to. Another big destination is Crete and Greece. But I've been to both Italy and Greece, and it seems like the Italians were more willing to take, at least house them temporarily where the Greeks were like, I don't want this but this is also, this is a very narrow experience of mine that was a few years ago but. Yeah, I mean, you could say it's anecdotal evidence but I mean, I've heard stories for sure. I think it's you broke it, you bought it right and Italy, yes, was a country that had colonies but countries like Sweden, they didn't have colonies, Norway didn't have them. but countries like Sweden, they didn't have colonies, Norway didn't have them. So in that regard, certain countries are paying a price for not being involved in colonialism or any of the activities what partially

the activities what partially causes these issues to be. I don't know if that never happened, if these people would flee, but most of these people they flee due to conflict or lack of opportunities. And, you know, you could apply that same mindset or methodology to Central and South America, how they're going. There's nothing here for me. I'm it's culturally or not culturally, it's economically stagnant. Mexico is essentially Narco state. The Central Northern South America is just run by cartels and assurgeon groups and no one wants to play with Venezuela because they have their home

thing going on and then they have the FARC that large comm is ideology a lot, ideological based organization going on there. So like, let's just go to the US, we know it's gonna be uncomfortable getting there there but at least we'll be okay. You know because I know that obviously immigration is a very very sensitive topic in the US but also in Europe but what's very interesting to me is, you know, how are the people that are dying in the Mediterranean trying to reach Europe, how are they different than the people that were on the Mayflower? It's a different era but at the end of the day, the first people that settled in in the US, they were looking, they were running away from persecution and religious persecution and the lack of opportunities and starvation. Look at the Irish for example.

look at the Irish for example, it's interesting how we as human beings have been migrating all over the globe and then somewhere in 1800s 1700s we decided these borders are, I mean it's a philosophical debate at that point but now we are here, nobody else and to me it's like I know how it is to my parents didn't want to leave a country that they were born in that they understood that my grandmother for example didn't want to leave. She said if I die, I die in my own country and she never left. I mean she bless her heart or she passed but she lived up until 2007-8, I think and you know, incredibly resilient but on the other hand, you know, it's like, it's very difficult for me, I have on a personal level, outside of what I do as a work, I have a hard time looking at it because I know how it is, you know, at when we came to the Netherlands, think I was six years old. My mom had two suitcases and six months pregnant and three children, you know, and then,

you know, make something of yourself. And at the time, you know, the Dutch have, you know, that's why I, you know, I feel Dutch. I love that country. And because it has given me and my family a home and an opportunity to do whatever we wanted to do. It's painful, you know, to hear the rhetoric, to listen to what people say and because you know, we got that opportunity and other people, you know, they don't. So it's hard from a personal perspective to look at it neutral, let's say that. Okay, I got a question for you. I know that in the 90s when the civil war started a lot of Somalis emigrated or attempted to seek asylum in Yemen and so today Yemen is also considered a failed state

and they have the Iranian-backed Houthis and the Saudi and the UAE coalition fighting with the recognized government. And so the Somali refugees are going, okay, I guess I'm just gonna move to piracy because that's the only way I can make any money. And from that point, they're just essentially making deals with, or they could be making deals with Iran who are actively destabilizing the region to keep say multiple lines of efforts off of central focus, essentially just creating additional fronts in the Middle East. because this is under talked about or under discussed topic but there's I think I just saw like several million Somali refugees in Yemen and that state is collapsed.

Yeah, they came back a lot of them. Okay. They came back a lot of them. When that civil war started. But I will tell you this, piracy, as far as I know, and I've met a lot of pirates personally, young guys, older guys, heard their stories. And if I had known that today, I would have written a book before everybody else did. But everybody else did but you know. But the main reason when you speak to these guys is the piracy started mainly due to this there's a couple of things but the two main stories and the two main points that I've heard from people that were involved in that industry let's call it that because it was an industry was overfishing by international

shipping companies mainly from China and Iran also illegal fishing. So the locals couldn't their families anymore. Secondly, there was a free for all to dump toxic nuclear waste off the coast of Somalia and that was because one of the at the time warlords signed a contract with companies to do that to dump waste in Somali waters. So a lot of children were born with like deformities and that killed the fish even more and opportunities. So when you're faced with, I cannot and these trawlers of overfishing everything, we're going to retaliate and that's how the piracy thing started. The point which you said about like creating multiple fronts from Iran, I think that was just maybe more of an opportunity that the Iran is. Just going back to earlier where you mentioned it's ideological base but it's also finance

base and so with someone like Iran, yes they're Shia Islam, yes they do believe in every Sunni is wrong and every Christian and everyone who's not Shia is wrong but also they're like, I also really don't like the US and it's all based on current 50 meter targets. So they're like, yeah, of course. I mean, I'm going to throw guys on the border of Azure by John, even though we're quasi friends, they kind of like the Turks more than they like me. So I might have to go to war with them at some point, or at least threatened to. And then the same thing with, and especially when it comes to Saudi Arabia and Iran, it's they're in a cold war where as soon as Iran says they want to make nukes, Saudi Arabia goes I guess I need some too and nobody really kind of batted a die at the Pakistanis because the Indians got the

nuke or the bomb essentially and so Pakistan said they would eat dirt to get the bomb and meet the Indians on a fair plank. They are consistently at a cold war and so there's always that closet that holds just part of the world is tit for tat and so when it comes to say like the Horn of Africa they're kind of stuck in the middle of because the Djibouti right there which was an old French colony and then it was owned by the British and then the Americans have a port there and it's a hub in the Gulf of Aden but also the Chinese now have a port there and they use that port as like a launching pad into Africa and some there with a Belt and Road initiative and so you have someone like Ethiopia going just leave me alone

but then they have the Tigray Revolution show up and so they're fighting each other and the Americans are going I really don't know what to do and so at that point it's an opportunity for the Chinese to move in and then you're gonna have the same prolonged conflict of issues because all these external influences are going to step in going, I know what's best for you and then 20 years ago, now somebody else's turn. Yeah, only the problem is the consequences of letting the Chinese do it. Yeah, they're easily the most nefarious in recent memory. So I mean, one of the craziest stats I've ever heard from somebody was in South Africa, there's a lot of Chinese investment.

And I don't know if this has ever been said in Europe, but I don't really care that much. A person, a friend of mine told me that half of the McDonald's franchises in South Africa are owned by the Chinese state Security Service. Right. So knowing that, you know, that economic warfare is such a powerful tool. And like if you, I've been many times in Kenya, you know, I even have a place there. And I'll tell you this, the influence of the Chinese, even though the Brits are very active in Kenya, they have boots on the ground there, they have trainings there, they're very close with the Kenyan government but the amount of money that the Chinese are investing, nobody else is really and the efforts being done

is incredible and now it's the Turks, you know, they are doing a lot in Africa. And I've been to places, for example, I've been to, I've been to really rural places in like Tanzania. And there will be like a Koran school school and I would see the books and they're like Shia study books. And so I was like, oh, they're even like trying here to cultivate allies. Then, you know, poof, there's an insurgency in Mozambique. Just a little bit water, you know. Yeah. Talking earlier about the bird's eye view of everything, that really helps in the big picture, especially when it comes to like intelligence and analysis, connecting dots and link analysis. It's like, oh, we had three insurgencies sprouted up over the last six years and within the last seven, the Chinese showed up. It's like they had heavy investment

in all these areas and it's not primarily American soft power up. It's like they had heavy investment in all these areas. And it's not primarily American soft power focus. It's like as soon as there's a McDonald's that opened up in Hanoi, Vietnam was very pro US. But it's if China's buying that American soft power piggybacking off of it, they essentially have swayed the local population. I mean, look at how the Russians freaked out. They didn't really care that they invaded Ukraine. But if you take away their Big Mac, they're going to riot. So if the Chinese are just jumping on that, they can take it pretty far. I mean, and especially when it comes to say like, cell phone ships, or they're buying the real estate, which will be useful in 10 years for making soap phones or rare minerals, something that in the horn of Africa is very rich, but they organically cannot refine or obstruct or retain this, those minerals.

So the Chinese are like, I'll do it. And so they're just writing every single coattail that works over the last say a hundred years and just essentially doing colonialism again. But this time it's, you know, it's through business. So it's an East India trading company. That's a good one. Yeah, you're right. I mean there's this really fantastic book really I can recommend everybody listening to read it is by Amy Chua. She's a professor I think Yale Law School and she wrote a book called Political Tribes and it basically explains, it breaks down why the US foreign policy and mainly US invasions in Vietnam, Iraq, Afghanistan failed and the central question is that the US government routinely misunderstood or mischaracterized the tribal elements in each of these countries and to ally

with and not understanding the human terrain as it were in these countries and the way that she broke that down is one of the like best theories at least for me I've seen and then she goes back to the US and what's going on right now. I mean like if you read her book basically a template of what's going on around the world and what's going on right now in the US and this rise of tribalism but yes, it's an interesting one and something a book that I can highly recommend. The entire way of thinking can be applied to any post World War II intervention or conflict from Eastern block, Western block, independent party outside of say maybe the black and white Falklands war.

That just that four year window of thinking where it's like, let's jump into this. No, I don't like what the last guy was doing. I'm in charge now. We're not doing that. Or it's just that like the human terrain is the best way to put it. It's I think a lot of when it comes to these outside powers that want to help nation building as they call it or winning hearts and minds, they really don't because they go get out of the way. You're just in the way at this point.

Yeah. because they go get out of the way, you're just in the way at this point. Yeah, you know, and what did, you know, if you had to make up a balance, right? What G-Watt do, right? What did that achieve? Because the world is more dangerous than ever. We can also associate that with advancements in technology, where it's, you look at the Arab Spring, the entire movement started up over Twitter post, because a guy set himself on fire, and then it just ignited himself on fire. And then it just ignited Northern Africa in the Middle East. So it's just a combination of multiple lines of effort moving in one direction. And if they're not moving at the same pace, but they're not moving in this, they're not even moving into their own third, same direction. It's just moving in one mob where there's so much going on at once. And over the last 20 years, it's, you know, it's fighting ideas. You can't really,

you're not going to win a war against an idea. Yeah and I mean that's what the US was, what used to be really good at, having that idea, Mount Olympus and freedom and that's like now and freedom and that's like now, if you look at Twitter, countries in NATO saying about this abortion ruling Roe v Wade saying like very worried and where are the shared values and I mean that's interesting, you know that that's being said by politicians and I don't know, I mean I'm not an American and I'm looking from the outside in. So I'm trying to because if you want it or not, whatever happens in the US has refurbishations around the world. It's like the concept of the butterfly effect when a butterfly

in Kansas flutter its wings, it's felt in being in Africa and it is something that for us to be interested in and to follow and to see what's going on and it feels like from me as an outsider, it feels like outside, it feels like there's at the moment a battle going on for America's soul and the battlefield seems to be culture and that used to be the tool of America's power projection outside of nuclear arsenals and military budgets and all that kind of stuff because I think that's heavily misunderstood. When people say America's defense budget is like eight times the next countries combined, right. That's if they are saying the truth about their numbers because why would China let the world know how much they're spending on defense? We don't know that and we don't know that about Russia either. There's only guesstimates that we know. But if you would ask a kid in a cold war, you know, Soviet block, you know, they

think it was like, I want Levi's jeans and drink Coca-Cola. So that was the, that was the battlefield that it still is, you know, we tend to forget. And if we have any thoughts in what's going on in the world, I don't think anybody's jumping up in Africa, in South America, in parts of Asia of what does Russia or China have to offer when it comes to. Looking down to culturalism, it's like I just mentioned, it's McDonald's, that's you think America, you think cheeseburgers and Coke and you think five gum and all these things and so if you go to a local Chinese village, they have Pepsi bottles saved up because they want to, they like Pepsi, but in America, they're like, oh, I don't, it's just everywhere. And so it's very easy to become complacent on. And this is also applies to the Western world in

general. Oh, you know, from Berlin to London to Madrid to DC to Wellington, New Zealand, it's there's like, you know, we have this, we really don't care. But then you go to somewhere like Guatemala, they're like, no, I save every Coke bottle I can, because I can only get so much. But if you would speak to some people with certain political leanings, they would tell you, oh, that's exaggerated, you know, right? And I'm like, you don't know, because like I've traveled to some of the like most non-permissive areas in the world and you would see kids running around in Manchester United, jerseys and LA Lakers because that's what they understand, that's what they can identify with and I'm not saying not to worry about where the world is going as a whole, particularly if you are

fond of Western democracy and humanity and human rights and all that stuff which is very important important because as you just said, I live in Sweden and there is this huge, huge love in Sweden for anything Americana. Like now summer, it's super hot right now, like 30 degrees, I think it's like over 100 in Fahrenheit and you would see like old Mustangs and Camaros and like rat rods of 40s, 50s, they're Broncos, 70s, 80s, you know, you see guys and girls dressed up like people from the 50s and like I'm not even joking when I tell you this, on more than one occasion in Stockholm probably one of the most liberal places on earth, I've seen trucks with huge confection flags. It's bizarre, but because they love that whole, you're not seeing them doing that on anything Chinese. So I think there is that space, that cultural space is still heavily in favor. Well, I think the only maybe a close second outside of the US would probably be the United

Kingdom. Everyone likes the Beatles, everyone likes because their music is generally regarded to be some of the best and then you could also go to say animation, a lot of people in the US like Japan. So absolutely, yeah, because there's that it's over the last seven years before World War II, I wouldn't say it was very popular but now it's everyone's. I think Japanese anime is influenced by I don't want to take that away from them obviously but I'm a big fan, I read mangas

but I think there is an influence from different cultures and I think that's also what makes you strong. It, having overlapping culture, where it's, yeah, it's cool to be an American. But if you are, let's say, Italy, you know, Italy has their culture, but they're also bordered by France. And they also speak a romance language, like Spain or Romania. So it's like, all right, cool. So there's cultural overlap. And so there's, is redundancy a good term? It's culturalism. Yeah, it's just, it's building off one another. It's not like an isolated idea because if in the American zeitgeist down to the very bare minimum, it's a melting pot. So it's like, yeah, we get food from everywhere. We get there. We as Americans get, it's everything.

So it's like everyone kind of identify with that because there's niche little subgroups and subcultures within the American umbrella that can be applied to anybody. So it's like if you're in Berlin, you're like this is very similar to the one I went to in Phoenix. Yeah, it's very interesting that you're saying this because that book that I was talking about earlier, Political Tribes, it talks about America is the only country on earth right now, the only power on earth. I think the last time something like this existed was during the Roman Empire, was that America has like the super group identity. So you can be an Italian but ultimately you're an American. So you're an Italian American or you're an American. In America you could ask someone what are you and their answer is not going to be American. They're

like, oh well I'm scotch Irish or I'm my mother's side is Korean but my father's side is from Scandinavia. So I'm kind of a mutt, it's just a mutt is the most common term that's thrown around over here but And so, but if you go internationally, it's, they go like, Oh, yeah, I'm an American, like, because if you go to America, like in America goes, I'm, I'm Irish American, but then they go over to Ireland, they're like, no, dude, you're an American, like, it's, I don't care about where, where your grandfather's from, like you right now. And so it's just a big picture going international. It's like, yeah, in the US people will go like, yeah, this is like my little burrow.

But then when you leave, they're like, yeah, I'm an American. So it's that cultural identity is floating throughout the world. I mean, you know, and I think also why, why people are still really, I don't know how we got into this, but I think that's why people are still really, I don't know how we got into this but I think that's why people still love American culture and that's still really strong even though there's issues internally and to be fair, so I was born in Somalia but for majority of my life and my formative years I lived in the Netherlands, right. So I'm Dutch and whenever I meet somebody not always but sometimes when I meet people, most of the time when I meet people, I say I'm Dutch, they're like, oh yeah but where are you really from? Right. I don't think that will ever

be asked to an American, you know, because I want to ask like, where you're from. And like, they're like, so where are you from? And then they would go like, oh, I'm from, I'm from Boston. You're like, okay, so you're from Massachusetts. You're like, yeah. And so it's like, you will say like your city, or what's next to and then you'll follow or if you're from like a little rinkading town or like it's about 15-25 miles from them and then insert city here. So yeah, and this is obviously if you're traveling as an American in Europe or in somewhere else, within America, obviously, there's still, you know, people that might have the same views but like in France, for example, right. Like this is the main issue, right. In countries like this where I live in Sweden and which is often made out to be like, you know, these utopias, this is, it's a socialist capitalistic country.

You know, there's like a big safety net, you know, this free healthcare, free school and all that stuff. And, but the thing is, that whenever you come here, they say you have to assimilate, right? You have to lose all your own identities and you have to become a Swede. The problem is even if you do that, even if you change your name to Hans or Bjorn or whatever, you will not be considered that. So where you see all these issues that they have here where there's like crime issues and stuff, it's like youngsters that you know, hey, I go to school, I do my best, you know, I speak the language, you know, I understand the culture. The system is so stacked against me that why would I even participate? I think today America still does a better job at that than most countries on earth.

So again, we come to this cultural or cultural, battlefield that, you know, is still, you know, firmly in the hands of the US. So I have good hope that you guys can overcome the political issues that are ongoing right now and the differences. And I think the is in a much better shape than other countries pointing at it and saying, see about gun crime and which is obviously a problem but I think it's not as bad as people say and I know we haven't really talked much about intelligence and all that. Well, it's fine. We're getting to about that. We can come back into it another time. I would love to. Yeah, I completely understand where you're coming from and going back to like cultural identity, the US is young and they're still trying to figure it out.

So everyone just kind of shows up. They're like, hey, take a swing, sink or swim. But in say in Japan, when you move to Japan, it's really hard to become a citizen there because they're like, you have to be Japanese. That's just how it is. But all right. Yeah. So we're about that time. If there's anything you would like to plug, just go right ahead. Well first of all, guys go to our website, great dynamics.com. You know, we produce Intel and articles about everything, espionage, conflict, geopolitics, really interesting historical stuff, very

contemporary topics, subscribe, where you can have access to very up-to-date analysis if you want to know what's going on in Myanmar or in Ecuador or in the US. Do that and our upcoming podcast and hopefully we can have you as a guest and ask you all these questions that you asked me. Oh yeah, that'll be really good to know. Yeah, so Grey Dynamics podcast you know have a look out and follow us on Instagram, Twitter, Grey Dynamics all the same. Grey with an E instead of an A. And yeah I have to say that because you guys write Grey Dynamics, Grey with an A so it's Grey with an E. It's the British spelling. Yeah just a little different. a little different. Yeah you know if you want to know more, message us on

Twitter, on Instagram. Instagram is probably the best place to reach us. All right man well I really appreciate you coming on and thank you for having me. Have a good one. You too. Thanks for watching!