Kyle Kingsbury Podcast - #126 Kyle Thierman

Episode Date: November 18, 2019

Kyle Thiermann is a professional surfer, writer, podcast host, and filmmaker from Santa Cruz, CA. We jump on a number of topics like the benefits of fungus, the environment, climate control, The Mother Fucker awards and more.    Connect with Kyle| Podcast Site - https://www.kyle.surf/podcast Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/kyle_tman/?hl=de LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/kyle-thiermann-97a7b667 Facebook - https://www.facebook.com/kyle.thiermann/ YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCrtYNdUjAr_FJDQLpLKFx9g   Show Notes: Gregg Braden on the Londonreal - https://londonreal.tv/e/gregg-braden-2/ Mother Fucker Awards - https://themotherfuckerawards.com/   Show Sponsors| Indochino Visit www.indochino.com Use codeword Kyle at checkout for 30%off your total purchase of $399 or more plus free shipping   Caldera Lab https://calderalab.com/kyle Use codeword Kyle at checkout for 20% off your first purchase of (The Good)   Onnit  Get 10% off all foods and supplements at Onnit by going to https://www.onnit.com/kyle/   Connect with Kyle Kingsbury on: Website | https://www.kingsbu.com/ ( Supplement List & Newsletter) Twitter | https://bit.ly/2DrhtKn Instagram | https://bit.ly/2DxeDrk Get 10% off at Onnit by going to https://www.onnit.com/podcast/   Subscribe to Kyle Kingsbury Podcast iTunes | https://apple.co/2P0GEJu Stitcher | https://bit.ly/2DzUSyp Spotify | https://spoti.fi/2ybfVTY

All right, friends, we've got another friend of mine, Kyle Tierman, host of the Kyle Tierman podcast, who has been on the show before. He's an environmentalist and a big wave surfer. He's also a friend of mine that I recently went hunting with out in Hawaii back in March with Ben Greenfield, Dr. Peter Attia, Dr. Chris Ryan, and my boy, JR Caustic, who works down at an archery store in San Diego, who's homies with Peter Attia. And I think there was a couple others. We had our great guys, Justin Lee, a ton of other people that I think we mentioned on the show, Jake Mews. But Tierman's just a phenomenal dude. He's a guest, one of those guests that I will continue to have on the show. He's a young

man, very inspiring, very knowledgeable. We talk about the environment. We talk climate change. We talk about cell-based meats. We kind of go back and forth. This was a co-released episode. That means he released it on his podcast as well as I'm releasing it on mine because we figured the interview format just didn't fit due to the fact that we know each other so well and we've already been the guests on each other's show in the past.

So we just had a dope conversation and it went back and forth. Talked about stuff on this show that I've never talked about before, you know, really. And we linked to some other things. So we'll link in the show notes. I know there's one thing that I brought up. I want to link to in the show notes is a podcast that Greg Braden just did on the London Real episode, which was fucking fascinating. Absolutely fascinating. So, and that had to do with climate change, but lots of good stuff in that episode. Lots of good stuff in this episode. Let us know what you think.

Hit us up on Instagram. That's where we're most available for answering questions. Remember, do not DM me because I don't check those. I just, we'll get to your answer in any posts that I have. So comment on one of the posts and I'll get back to that. Also support this show. We're brought to you by Indochino. Indochino was founded on the belief that you don't need to spend a fortune on a custom

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entering Kyle at checkout. Plus shipping is free. That's Indochino.com, promo code Kyle for $30 off your total purchase of $399 or more. It's an incredible deal. And you can also use Kyle in the showroom. Next next we've got our guys at Caldera Lab Caldera Lab has a product called The Good it's absolutely phenomenal uh it's a product that I started using really just uh by chance they sent it out to me they said hey let us know what you think and I absolutely fell in love with it it's it's a really high-end high-quality facial oil and it's something that you can use for skincare. Now, as a dude who's been hit in the face and has some gray in his beard,

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your first Caldera Lab purchase. Check it out. It is an amazing product. And last but not least is the company Onnit, the company that I'm still a part of and absolutely love. I don't want to talk pre-workouts. On my website, kingsboo.com, I will give you my entire supplement list that includes Onnit products and non-Onnit products, everything I take from the morning to pre-workout to sleep. Last week, we talked about sleep. Now we're talking pre-workout. And two of the products that I absolutely love from Onnit that I use on a daily basis, whether I work out or not, are Onnit's beta-alanine, which is a time-release beta-alanine that's been shown through a ton of science to be very

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there seems to be a fantastic synergy. So you can get both of those at onnit.com slash Kyle. You'll get 10% off your entire order. And as always, 10% off any product that is food-related or supplement-related at onnit.com slash Kyle. Thank you guys for tuning into the show today. And I hope you guys enjoy this one with my man, Kyle Tierman. Last time you were here, we did the dinner in the backyard.

Which was fucking incredible. Let's talk about that. Sure. That was fun. So what was... I forget. I think we were, we were going to come through town and you were like, the next time you come to town, you got to let me know. And I was like, I think it was after you were in Austin. Yes. And I was telling you, like, you were naming the people that are all in this town. And I was like, dude, I got to meet Bruce Lifton. I got to meet Bruce Dahmer. Jim Fadiman. Fadiman.

Wallace J. Nichols, author of Blue Mind. Yep. And then finally got him on the podcast. Obviously, Chris Ryan. Wanted to meet him. Yep. So you put together the Who's Who dinner. Kaj Larson, we had there.

Navy SEAL. We had Ben Horton, Nat Geo photographer, all these guys that I've either known from growing up in Santa Cruz or have become friends with through the podcast. And you said, okay, I'm going to be in Santa Cruz in about a month, month and a half. And that was the inception of what we then called the curated feast, which was a dinner in my backyard that was... We had five-course meal, all locally foraged food from the Santa Cruz Mountains, and a food historian who then came in and would tell myths and poems about each course as it came out. And it ended up just continuing to build where more and more people ended up coming on. I'm like, man, this is going to be some really interesting cats at this dinner. But it initially happened because you said you were coming to Santa Cruz.

Yeah. Thank you, brother. That exceeded any and all expectations. I would have been happy with a dinner with you and any one of those guests. All of them at the same time was just... It was awesome. And I've been able to connect with a lot of them since then. Yeah. We had Bruce on. I went to his spot down the road. He actually lives like walking distance from my dad in Boulder Creek. No way.

I was like, no shit. He's right here. I've been driven by his house constantly, like many, many times. And I'm still in talks with Fatima and haven't been, uh, we, we, I think his wife got ill, so we weren't able to connect, uh, the last time, but yeah, he's pretty limited in the interviews he's given these days. Um, but I saw him just the other night at, um, the premiere of fantastic fungi. Let's talk about that.

So great. Um, and yeah, he's still kicking still. So you, you got to see that here in Santa Cruz. You can follow them on Instagram. I think it's just at FantasticFungi. I don't think it's at FantasticFungiMovie or any of that, but I'll check. And we got to see this in Sedona. So a guy who is a part of Fit for Service, Craig Nuremberg, who I told you recently was a part of the...

Bong. was a part of the team that helped fund alongside Tim Ferriss, the $17 million psychedelic studies wing at Johns Hopkins. He was on a telluride at the Mushroom Film Fest or the Mushroom Festival. And so they showed this there and he became buddies with Louis Schwartz and asked him if he could premiere it to us. So Louis Schwartz is the director of Fantastic Fungi. Yeah. And you'll see they have clips on their Instagram. So it's super easy to see the trailer, see what we're talking about. But I have very few documentaries catch me like that. It was visually stunning. And obviously, I'm a fucking huge fan of mushrooms of all kinds. But it was stunning. And it had everybody, like the who's who, Dennis McKenna, Paul Stamets,

Roland Griffiths, the head of research at Johns Hopkins, Michael Pollan, you name it. If they've had anything to do with mushrooms in the game right now, they're in the movie. It was amazing. It's a really well-told story too. I felt like they hit everything from the therapeutic aspects of psychedelics to the health benefits of mushrooms to just the gravity of how we came from mushrooms and how we wouldn't be here without mushrooms. Mushrooms are what they say, mushrooms are like the digestive track of the earth. And without them, plant matter would take over. And they had these time-lapse shots of fungus eating the bodies of a mouse or fungus just completely changing the landscape

in ways that I intellectually knew because I've been in the mushroom game for a little while, but never had been able to see. Yeah, I walked away from that like, we live on a spaceship and there are aliens that exist here. Yeah. It was so beautiful. And like, yeah, you were saying that Schwartz is the guy that's known for time-lapse. And there's some beautiful time-lapse of different mushrooms. But I remembered watching, I was telling Craig, I was like, because he was talking about the time-lapse of different mushrooms. But I remembered watching, I was telling Craig, I was like, because he was talking about the time-lapse.

And I was like, yeah, they did that beautiful time-lapse of mushrooms on one of the planet Earths. And they have like the bioluminescent ones that they show come out at night. And they have these beautiful colors. And he was like, yeah, that's Louis' stuff. He licensed it out. And I was like, get the fuck out of here. So it was really cool to see it.

And it's, I mean, it is visually stunning. I cried in the fucking movie. I mean, I cry in Abominable with Bear, but I, so I do cry in movies. I do cry. But yeah, when Paul brings his mom up and talks about no more breast cancer, stage four breast cancer, cured from the turkey tail. The turkey tail mushrooms. So in the movie, he talked about how turkey tail coupled with chemo could make it more effective. Is that? Correct. And it also enhances the immune system, which is a critical piece.

Obviously, when you're receiving chemo, you're killing off. It's like antibiotics. You're killing off good guys and bad guys. It's very hard on the immune system. So that's one of the really cool things about turkey tail is you're boosting the immune system, which allows the chemo to work better. And it also has some immune properties that help kill cancer cells to begin with, even in its own right. But what's cool about Paul is he's not Timothy Leary. He's not going head on against the system. He's saying,

these are how these things can work in conjunction with what we already have and make them better. And that's a really cool piece. Yeah. We were talking out on the water just now about how they can treat homes organically with fungus that'll kill termites, like the Trojan horse. Dude, that was one of the coolest aspects of it because they showed how if a termite or ant is infected with some kind of fungus, usually what will happen is there will be garter ants that will stay outside the colony, and they will then take the ant that's been infected out to a separate location, bite its head off, and then kill themselves to make sure they don't infect the colony. But with this new fungus, it basically doesn't show itself on the ant or termite until it makes its way back into the colony, which then can give a fungal infection to the whole colony and kill it,

which for people who want to get rid of any of these insects in their homes is a massive market. And you don't need to tent your house anymore. Yeah. And it's clean, right? It's not hurting anything. Yeah. Another huge, huge component. They go so many different angles and avenues through that. Obviously, for those who have followed Paul, he just finished like 15 years worth of work and finally had all of his work published in Nature, one of the world's foremost journals on how we can save the bees.

And it's a very easy way to treat bees if we have our own colonies and things like that, to treat them with a fungus that prevents them from dying. And there's obviously with all the pesticides and everything like that, like that's, you know as well as anybody how hard that battle is and that it's not going to change anytime soon. But if we can treat them, they'll survive and we won't have an ecosystem collapse. Yeah. Yeah. I really like how much Paul focuses on the solutions. This is something that I think about a lot. Like, how do you want to show up in the world? Timothy Leary or Paul Stamets? There are people who are fighting the system. They're fighting what's existing right now. And I think that it's really important for people to play that role because they're pointing out what a problem is. And you need to know what the problem is to know how to move around it. Then you have a lot of people. You have people like Paul Stamets. People in your world, in the health and fitness world, were like, okay, we don't need to bring down the current paradigm before we can adopt a

new one. We can circumvent it. And I think a lot of people who listen to podcasts are those types of people. They're like, okay, I understand that the status quo, the current paradigm is behind the times in a lot of ways. And there's this new information out there that I can go get right now and apply to my life and the rest of the world will catch up. Yeah. And you don't have to wait for that, right? Exactly. It's empowering when we have options. Who's the girl? There's a 16-year-old girl that's all over Instagram. Greta Thornburg.

Yeah. So she's kind of the Timothy Leary right now. And this isn't me taking a stab at her. But the world does need people to point this stuff out, and that's fine. I think she's misinformed with a lot of the stuff that she talks about with meat. And all you have to do is follow Rob Wolf on Instagram. He has a book he's been working on for four years with another great author on the impact of animal production, right? Look, there is no question that cutting down the rainforest will have the biggest impact on environment.

Far bigger than anything else. Far bigger than any fucking cars. Far bigger than people lighting dung in their living rooms in India to stay warm. Far bigger than anything else. Far bigger than any fucking cars. Far bigger than people lighting dung in their living rooms in India to stay warm. Far worse. But even factory farmed animals release a fraction of methane compared to

any of these other issues that we have. Their contribution to global warming is far less. She's not offering a ton of solutions. Then they show the kid. There was a meme that I saw that showed her and then it showed the kid who at 16 had come up with the idea to get rid of the giant Texas-sized plastic in the ocean in the South Pacific. Yeah. Gosh, I'll think of his name right now. He's like 21 or 22 now. And obviously he has a ton of funding from guys like Elon Musk and different people that are going to make that work.

So the solutions-oriented is a really cool thing to see as well. It's not like, stop everybody from using plastic today. It's like, well, sure, let's work on different ways. Maybe we have glass bottles or we use a Nalgene or something like that that's reusable. I'm all about that. Yeah. There's a lot to go into right there. Okay. I have many things to say on many of the subjects. So I want to get into meats with you because I think that unfortunately, a lot of the memes that are out there around environmentalism are incorrect.

One is that the methane, the cow farts and burps are such a major contributor to climate change. There's a book called The Vegetarian Myth. I forget the author's name, but Chris Ryan had the author on his podcast. It's really well done. But just about how that's an incorrect meme that we have out in the culture. The second incorrect meme that I just want to point out there

is that there is an island in the ocean the size of Texas. Yeah, it's a gyre. So around the world, there are five gyres that are basically like big spinning toilet bowls in the middle of the ocean. It's where currents converge. And if you drop a plastic bottle off the cliff here in Santa Cruz,

eventually it will make its way out into the Great Pacific Gyre, which is way bigger than twice the size of Texas. But it's basically where then all this plastic breaks down and turns into plastic confetti. One of the issues that I see... I mean, you hit me with five topics that I'm super passionate about. But I think that one issue with the Ocean Cleanup Project that this brilliant young kid is doing, and I'm just spacing on his name right now, so I apologize. But it's the idea that if we clean all this plastic up and bring it back to shore, that will provide the solution. Because you just take it one step further. It's like, okay,

let's say that we can clean this plastic up. Most people think we can't because plastic breaks down into such small pieces that the fish eat it and it's virtually impossible to take back to shore. It's not like the plastic Coke bottle that you brought out into the middle of the ocean that made its way into the middle of the ocean is in that same form. But the second flaw in thinking, in my perspective, is that by bringing it back to shore, that will provide humanity with the solution that we need. And I think that what it can do is it can create this mentality that recycling has created, which is like, okay, I'm putting this in the blue bin. It's now out of sight, out of mind. And what we've... Recycling is... I'm mixed on it. It's

been great for a lot of reasons. But in a lot of other reasons, it's just allowed us to to put the problem over there. And for a lot of our lives, most of our recycling has just gone on big cargo containers off to China, where China then would most of the time just incinerate it because they have different recycling and environmental standards as the US. So it just allowed the industry to continue to pollute and continue to manufacture more plastic products. Plastic isn't inherently a horrible product. It's made our lives way better. But it has this really big external cost. it's important to look at environmental and social issues, not from like the good guys and the bad guys, and we're fighting the bad guys. It's to look at it from what are the industries

that are profiting from these products, and what are the costs that they're now forcing society to bear. So when it comes to plastic, if there were no cost, there'd be no problem. But there is no cost, there'd be no problem. But there is a cost, and it's when the product has finished its life cycle on this linear path to waste. And then that cost is borne mostly by developing countries who now have basically... We've turned their entire countries into landfills. Because two years ago,

China stopped taking our plastic. So now we ship a lot of ours off to Indonesia and Malaysia. And you'll just see these kind of plastic dystopias, mostly from American products. We saw, my mother-in-law just went and did a trip, a missionary trip with her husband out to India. And she has videos of kids and old women in the river. They bathe in the river. They drink water from the river. And it's a fucking sea of plastic and metal cans just going through the river.

That's where they dump the trash. And it's not, people fish out of there too. But like humans will wash and defecate in the river. That's where they dump the trash. And it's not... People fish out of there too. Yeah. But like humans will wash and defecate in the river and it's a sea of plastic. And it's like, that's like... I've been to some third world countries.

I've been to Afghanistan. I've been to Iraq. I've been to Central and South America. I haven't seen anything like that. Yeah. You know, it's just a different... It's a different ballgame. It's a whole different ballgame. It's a whole different ballgame.

But I think that one thing that I'm trying to do in deepening my own thinking around environmental issues is to look at it from a perspective of what are the costs that society is forced to bear as a result of these products coming into our society? I mean, the classic example is Purdue Pharmaceutical coming up with OxyContin, right? OxyContin was a great product, helped a lot of people get out of pain, but has resulted in this huge opiate epidemic. And now the costs are borne by coroner's offices and firefighters and nurses and all of us. So who should pay that price? My view is that there's no problem with capitalism in and of itself. If you have a great idea, you want to go out there and make a product and make a buck,

that's great. Transferring goods for services. I just think that there should be a higher price on... I think that we shouldn't have to... I think that the externalized costs that society is forced to bear should be shifted back onto corporations. So the externalized cost for OxyContin is, okay, there's this opioid epidemic. Purdue Pharmaceuticals should have to bear some of those costs. And they now have. They just filed for bankruptcy because they've been sued by over a dozen states for falsely marketing Oxy as non-addictive through the 80s and 90s resulting in this. I think that similarly, companies like Coca-Cola that they were found to be

one of the largest plastic polluter globally should be forced to set up waste infrastructure in the countries that they know they're shipping their products to, but the countries they know full well

have no way of dealing with that product. So I think it's just a more inclusive way of dealing with our materials economy. And then you're going to see more of those solutions coming out, hopefully, in the years to come. I like that. What do you feel about Carbon Tax? There's a good short film that I think everyone should check out called The Story of Cap and Trade. It's this animated 10-minute movie on YouTube that can talk about this stuff way more eloquently than I can because I'm not an expert on cap and

trade. So I'll just start there before I flail my way into a place that I barely have grounds to speak on. But I think that... So the question is what I think about carbon tax. As a means for curbing our use of gasoline and things like that. I think that it's one way that you can handle big polluters to have to bear a few of those costs that they're currently putting onto society.

I think that the price of... I don't know. I mean, it's a tough one. I think with what you just said, I don't mean to cut you off. Go for it. If it is put on large corporations and people who are using enormous amounts, I think that's where it should be put. I do not think it should

come down to people trying to commute to work. Now, I have a Prius. I also have a fucking giant Tundra once we moved to Texas because I no longer had California gas prices. But I'm mindful of how much gas we use. When I drive my son to school, we're in the fucking Prius. I want to save on gas, even though Texas is big oil country and gas is cheap there. But even here in California, they have a gas tax. Who benefits from that? The fucking California government? They're not using that money to fix roads. They're not using that money for education or anything like that.

And it sure as hell isn't stopping people from driving or getting more people to carpool. It's not doing any of those things. So it's just a money grab, in my opinion. They have a water tax here in California. Yeah. And I think that this is going to lead us down into a deeper part of the conversation. This is why I like talking with you is because we take the issue and then we're just continuing to follow it further and further upstream. And in my mind, where the conversation

will go next upstream is, why is it that certain laws are passed that absolve corporations of the impact that they have on society, specifically corporations with sociopathic business models? And why are those taxes and those costs being pushed to the citizen. And the reason for that is that right now, it's very difficult to get a politician to do anything that you want them to do unless you pay them. And there is a huge industry and millions and millions of dollars dedicated by corporations to get politicians to do what they want. And a lot of what they want is just to have a very hands-off approach to the corporations doing business. They say, hey, we don't want... If we're ExxonMobil, we will finance a super PAC that will get you, Kyle Kingsbury, elected. And then what we want from you is just allow us to go drill this area up in Alaska, please. Or if we end up creating some huge oil

spill, just make sure that the cost of that oil spill will be less than what it would be to profit. And then ultimately, it just becomes a business decision for these. Polluting the world then is just a decision of profit and loss. So I think that tackling this issue... I think that the people that I see who are tackling environmental issues and social issues from the most effective place are focusing on campaign finance reform right now. And that's where I'm focusing a lot of my attention in the stories that I'm trying to tell this year with the Motherfucker Awards. It's the relationship between corporations, lobbyists, and politicians. That was a lot right there. So I'll just rewind a little bit because it's a very unsexy topic, campaign finance reform. I can tell people are dozing

off already as I say that word. But it's super important. And I'll do my best to explain it in the best way that I can without being too verbose. But right now, politicians in the United States spend between 30% and 70% of their time in office making phone calls to fundraise for their next election. So they're basically calling wealthy people to get them to donate to their election. And in 2010, there was a law that passed called Citizens United, which allowed corporations to act as people. So it allowed corporations to donate unlimited amounts of money to super PACs. So a super PAC is something called a political action committee, an independent you, Kyle Kingsbury, are looking to become governor of Texas. And there will be your campaign, which is called Texans for Kyle. Now, this super back might just mirror that name. It might be called Kyle and the Texans or something like that, right? And this will be technically independent from you,

but financed by a group of corporations that then basically, you know, they will pay for all of your election campaign videos. You know, they will put maybe millions of dollars in negative ads against your opponent. And they will be, in large part, the marketing vehicle to help get you elected. Now, once you get elected, you might wonder, like, huh, I wonder what I call it, Texans for Kyle super PAC might want from me. Like, oh, well, really interesting.

It's ExxonMobil financed that super PAC. Or the GeoGroup, which is one of the largest private prisons companies, financed that super PAC. Okay. Well, it looks like... Let's take GeoGroup as an example because they're a private prisons company. They're looking for a bid to be able to expand the private prisons industry in Texas. Okay, well, I'm going to pass a law that allows the GEO group to participate in Texas. And we're going to be giving them then hundreds of millions of dollars in taxpayer money to expand the private prisons industry. So what ends up happening is you, the politician now, has this sixth sense around what your funders want.

And many times, those funders are large corporations that want expanded business, but then many times, they're at the cost of people. So an example of that is like ExxonMobil. They have a lot of externalized costs, oil spills, pollution, climate change, private prisons, hugely externalized costs because their whole business model is focused on incarcerating people. And when you have a society then that is has a... Or when you have an industry then that is, or when you have an industry then that is focused on incarcerating people, you're going to lock up a fuck ton of people for nonviolent drug offenses

and keep them there, keep them locked up for as long as possible. So, hope I didn't lose too many people there. But it's a really interesting look behind how our system is actually operating. And I think that hopefully, when we talk about the issues in this way, it becomes less... I mean, in some ways, less emotional between just people on the right and people on the left. I don't know too many conservatives that are super stoked that their representatives don't actually give a fuck about what they think anymore. And I don't know too many Democrats or liberals that like that either. really articulate voice on campaign finance reform is someone who everyone should be

paying attention to. And he just came out with a new podcast series called Another Way. And it's a 10-part podcast series on how we could reform government that I recommend everyone check out. We'll link to it in the show notes for sure. That was a lot. Thanks for that. It was a lot. You just touched on it uh just a little bit but i want to give i know we're released co-releasing this on the

kyle tierman show as well as the kyle kingsbury podcast two kyle's in the house um talk a bit about how the first motherfucker awards went down who who were some of the winners uh and then what you're trying to accomplish with this second year coming up. Sure. So the Motherfucker Awards is a satirical award show that I co-created with Chris Ryan, who is another fellow in the podcasting space. He's the author of Sex at Dawn and Civilized to Death and host of the podcast Tangentially Speaking. And I spent a lot of time farting around at his house down in LA. He lets me sleep in his van in his driveway when I'm down there. And one day we were just talking about how kind of how smug environmentalists are.

That's actually how we started the conversation and how Mother Earth is losing and that we should be celebrating the winners. Like a lot of these corporations that are making billions of dollars in profits and destroying the world should really be celebrated for their efforts. And Chris is friends with a ton of comedians. I'm a journalist and knew a lot of investigative journalists who were covering a lot of these issues. And we came up with the idea to do an Academy Awards-style show where we celebrated the corporations, individuals, and lobbying groups that were responsible for fucking Mother Earth the hardest, aka the name The Motherfucker Awards. So we got a ton of cool people involved. We got Matt Taibbi, who's a writer for The Rolling Stone. A lot of people call him the Hunter S. Thompson

of our day. He's the badass who takes down big banks. And I'm just surprised he hasn't been assassinated for some of the work that he's done, as an example. And we celebrated JPMorgan Chase Bank, who's the number one financier of dirty energy globally. So then he would go up and he would read off these three nominees in the banking sector. And then he would read the winner, and then we would get comedians to go up on behalf of these corporations and give acceptance speeches talking about how proud they were of fucking Mother Earth. So in that category, for example, we had comedians Natasha Leggero and Moshe Kasher, who are, in real life, they're a couple.

And they have a really funny Netflix special out right now called The Honeymoon Special. But we got them to go up and pretend to be the heirs of JPM Morgan Chase Bank. And their whole bit was that they were a brother and sister in an incestuous romantic relationship. And the only thing that got them horny was financing dirty energy. So their whole thing was like, unless you're somehow anti-incest, you'll have to agree that we need to keep financing dirty energy. It was fucking

hilarious. And the whole audience participates and they're laughing and cheering as these guys are giving real kind of dark, heavy facts. But it was like the funnest protest you'll ever get to go to. And instead of being really angry, you got to scream and clap and learn about issues from banks that finance dirty energy to... Last year, I was picking on Purdue Pharma earlier. We had Simon Rex, who's a mutual friend of ours, aka Dirt Nasty, go up on behalf of Purdue Pharmaceutical who we celebrated in the spirit category for outstanding efforts to break the human spirit

and he went up and was like you know we've now killed more people than soldiers died in the Vietnam War 70,000 versus 50,000 in Nam. We're up almost 10%. Everyone's cheering and clapping.

So that was the show. We had a freaking blast doing it. It was a ton of work. And we're doing it again. And I think that the biggest lesson for me and the reason why I'm still super stoked to do it is because I feel like it's really difficult to engage in any of these kinds of issues, um, earnestly because it gets really sad really quickly. Um, and I don't honestly identify with a lot of the people that do engage with these issues in angry ways.

Because I feel like, man, anger is a very taxing emotion to take on for a long period of time. And I see a lot of real well-meaning environmentalists that have taken these kinds of issues on and it just destroys them. Yeah, it wears you down. It wears you down. And I think that we can't necessarily solve these issues on our own. I have no delusions of grandeur that we're going to be solving these issues from doing a silly little comedy show. But I think that you do have the choice to determine how you want to think about these issues. And that's what I hope people get from the Motherfucker Awards is you do have a choice to be able to laugh at some of the darkest issues

of our time and engage with them creatively. And I think that that's one of the most beautiful aspects of being human. Yeah. And then you get to operate from a place of understanding and learning. And at the same time, it's fun in a way, right? You touched on that anger piece, and it reminded me of a woman I've had on the show named Anahata, who was out in Sedona. She's a close friend of Aubrey and mine. And her daughter was getting ready to go to college, and she was going to participate in the Women's March when Trump got elected. And Anahata, being very intelligent and wise,

said, you know, I want you to go. I want you to experience it, but just pay attention to how many people are there in celebration of women and how many people are there in anger of what's going on right now. And just witness. And she said there was maybe, she could count on one hand how many people were celebrating women and the other 90 plus percent

of the people were there in rage, right? But that's the thing. You read a book like Nonviolent Communication and it's all about receptivity. Can I communicate in a way without blame or judgment so that the other person will receive the message, right? In any time we have a conversation with somebody, you want to be heard. That's it. That's fucking communication 101, right? You want to be heard.

And even just feeling heard, like if I'm talking to you right now and I know you're listening and paying attention to me, it feels good to be heard, right? And it's palpable now in today's world where you're mid-conversation and somebody's on their cell phone going, uh-huh, uh-huh, yeah, yeah. Oh, wait, what was that? I get caught doing that with my wife sometimes, right? I fucking hate that. But that's the thing, right? If you can communicate

in a way without blame or judgment and you can state what's going on, how you feel, what your feelings are, what is the need, and then make a request, that's a totally different way to approach conversation. And with the big issues, that's what's lacking. What's lacking is manners, kindness, generosity, gentleness in our communication, right? And it's never going to be received from the other side if it's in your face with blame and finger pointing. Even if you're fucking right, even if it is 100% true what you're saying, it has to come in a way that will be received. Yeah. And rhetoric is what will destroy our country, right? When we start to see people as other and say, fuck you, you're different than I am. You don't hold the same values as I do. That's way more destructive than the belief itself,

in my opinion. There's a really good line that I'm sorry for misquoting or misattributing it, but it's, I am a friend of your soul and an enemy of your project. I like that. As a species, we are, I think, turning a corner where we're starting to realize great lives, and we that we need to, as a society, stand up against that, but to do it in a more creative way and do it out of love for the planet, not fear and anger, which I think is what you just said really well. Have you heard much of Greg Braden? No. Tell me about that. So he was just on London Real a second time, and I'll link to that podcast as well. But he talked about solar cycles and that climate change is, in part, we are contributing

into it, and in part, it's a part of the cycle, right? And we can see that in some of the ice cores, and he gets into some of the science behind that. He's been a geologist for 30 or 40 years now um and he says he's he wants to be very careful with that statement because he doesn't that that generally will take people off the hook like see told you so we got nothing to do with it right and that's an issue because even as the climate changes that wouldn't necessarily cause the acidification of the ocean that wouldn't cause a lot of other issues that we are

contributing to. Or just asthma. If you're a kid in a low-income neighborhood and you live near a coal power plant, regardless of climate change, that's fucked for your lungs. Yeah. There's a lot of... There's a lot of ways we're contributing, right? But he's... Yeah.

It's just a fantastic episode that he does. And... Yeah. I forget where I was going with that, but he's, he's, he's definitely, I highly recommend people listen to that because he has some really cool points on that. And, um, I think, I think that's it. You're, are you familiar with Milton Friedman? Yes. Yeah.

Stanford prison experiments. He's fantastic, dude. And he talks a lot of it about, it talks a lot about the economy and how we drive, how, how we drive innovation through a free and open market. Yeah. And it's not by a carbon tax or anything like that. It's by guys like Elon Musk creating Tesla. It's by Toyota hearing the people and making a fucking Prius very affordable, right? It's by things like that where we then have those options.

But at a certain point, you also have, you have to have people in charge with a backbone to stand up for you. And I use this point on food. So I know I've brought this up on my podcast before, but in a lot of the Nordic countries in Northern Europe, they give a shit. They pay attention, right? So Kentucky Fried Chicken has more, they have more franchises internationally than McDonald's does. And when they wanted to go into Sweden and Norway and some of these other countries, they couldn't get the Colonel's original recipe into them because they were 33 times higher, the MSG that's allowed in their country per serving. 33 times higher. Wow. We don't have that issue here because nobody's

fucking looking out for us. Right? And so that's just one example. Also, aspartame. You talk about lobbying. How does aspartame go through? It's a fucking neurotoxin. The second your core temperature gets up to 102 degrees. You have a Diet Coke pre-workout, you go work out and hit the sauna, it's now a neurotoxin, right?

Well, that just got pushed through. It just got pushed through. Wait, explain that. Aspartame is in chewing gum. It's in fucking Diet Coke. It's in a lot of diet stuff. It's an artificial sweetener. And obviously, there's tons of research now

with the microbiome and issues around that. But my point is, this gets through here. It does not get through there, right? And especially with children, they really go to bat for kids there. So Kraft has mac and cheese. It has yellow food dye in America. Over there, that's not allowed. So they has mac and cheese. It has yellow food dye in America. Over there,

that's not allowed. So they have to use annatto, which is an organic yellow food coloring that they use to make your Kraft mac and cheese, right? Just because they don't want artificial flavors or coloring in anything that goes into children out there. Yeah. A lot of people talk about it as the precautionary principle. A lot of Europe uses what's called the precautionary principle where they say, all right, before you want to put this new chemical into our market, where kids are going to be exposed to it, families are going to be eating it, you need to view it in an opposite way where we say it's innocent until proven guilty, which it allows companies to be able to make a fuck ton of money very quickly, but then you realize like, oh shit, we put lead in the paint and DDT is actually not safe. One of the reasons why Hawaii is ground zero for genetic engineering globally, so a huge

amount of crops out in Hawaii, corn crops and soy and canola, are dedicated to GMO testing. So these are crops where, and for people who don't know much about GMO, it's basically an engineering of a plant so that it can withstand more pesticides. That's one of the primary uses of genetic engineering. So there are crops that they will test different pesticides on, and they'll test heavier and heavier amounts of pesticides. One of the reasons they do it in Hawaii is because that state has very lax environmental laws. So they can use certain pesticides that would never be allowed in places like Europe. I didn't wait. The question I had though was aspartame is a neurotoxin when your body

temperature rises. Yeah. Interesting. So you never want to have a Diet Coke and do a workout. You just don't want to have a fucking Diet Coke. Let's be honest. Especially when you have, when you have, and that's again, going back to Milton Friedman,

if you love soda, get a fucking Zevia. It's going to cost more, but so what? It's not going to hurt you. Yeah. Right? Like we have alternatives,

you know, they got a ton of those Waterloo. I mean, it's not as good as the Zevia. It doesn't taste like soda, but there's a lot of alternatives to a carbonated beverage. Whatever this is. La Croix, right?

La Croix. La Croix. La Croix. This is good. This is good. La Croix. This is good. This is good.

You know, Naval Ravikant? Mm-hmm. That was my... But I have four podcasts that are my favorite this year. Naval on Rogan is number one. Dude. That was like a spiritual experience. I've

very rarely heard... I mean, you and I get to listen to a lot of very articulate speakers, and I don't think I've ever heard anyone do that well on a podcast and deliver ideas in such a concise and perfect way. But he had a very concise way of summing up the environmental movement.

He said, environmentalists identify the correct problem. Hey, there's one world. We're all living here. We have a limited amount of resources. let's take care of it but they uh pitch the wrong solution which is uh we all need to go back in into uh past times and we can't um you know live he has a more articulate way than explain more articulate way than basically we're all going to be gommish well exactly that's And that's what a lot of environmentalists try and say we can do. But sorry, we have developing countries that are going to want to come online and they're going to want electricity. So we better make sure that their electricity is coming from renewable energy, not coal, because it's coming either way. And just trying to tell them that they don't deserve it,

even though we've had it for the past 100 years, is not going to fly. So, yeah, I agree. I like that we're kind of maintaining a thread of McKenna versus Stamets. How do you engage with these issues? Leary versus Stamets. Sorry, Leary versus Stamets. Sorry, Leary versus Stamets. I want to get your perspective on meat

because we touched on that briefly, but this is a whole other aspect of the conversation that we can get into. What has your evolution been like in learning about the health impacts or benefits of meat and kind of where you stand on the whole issue now. Yeah. So first, let me just say, so it's not a blanket one size fits all because I am going to have Paul Saladino on the carnivore doc who's really into nose to tail. One of the first

things I learned about this was through Paul Cech and his book, How to Eat, Move, and Be Healthy. And he followed a guy named... Oh, shit. Don't let me draw a blank here, Weston A. Price, who was a dentist. He traveled the globe in the 30s. And what he found was, he researched indigenous cultures from all over the world. And what he found is if they had eaten their natural diet and they had no Western influence, they all had perfect teeth, most of which didn't even have a toothbrush. Most of these tribes didn't have a word for cancer, didn't have a word for heart disease. They didn't have a word for any of the shit, though. Diabetes, it just didn't exist, right? And these are people who are just ripped. Everyone looks good, long lifespan, good health. And he looked at people who lived on seal and whale blubber in the Arctic Circle, and then all the way to pygmy tribes who lived almost 100% on yams and sweet potatoes.

So it contrasted wildly. But what he found was closer to the equator, you had much smaller prey, and you also had carbohydrates year-round. So they could get away with having more carbohydrates. Obviously there's less seasonal change. And then they would eat fish and fowl, smaller birds, chicken, and fish. And those fish are also leaner because they're closer to the equator.

Then as you go closer to the poles, you're going to be able to get more of the larger prey. Like, you know, obviously it's been a minute since woolly mammoths have been around, but mammoths, bison, cattle, things like that as you get closer. And then also seasonally, you would go without carbohydrates because there would be a freeze, a period of time where at least three or four months you're going without those things. And if people were doing that, they were in perfect health.

The second they introduced bread and a lot of things that we have in the West, we saw issues. And so I think that's an important thing to keep in mind. Now, if you have a mom from Jamaica and a dad from Ireland, who knows? You could have five fucking siblings and every one of you would take different pieces of your parents and it would range. I have a friend who did his DNA fit. Mom is Mexican, 100%. Dad's 100% German. He does not produce amylase in his gut, so he can't break down starch. Well, who cooks? Mom cooks. Mexican mom cooks. And she uses tortillas and beans and corn and all these things, all starches. So after high school football, dude ballooned up like a puffer fish, goes on keto, drops 50 pounds instantly because he does better with heavier fats and red meat, right? Now, somebody from the equator who's both parents from there, it's not hard.

They don't need to do a DNA fit. They can figure that out on their own. They probably wouldn't do well eating heavy animal fat, right? And we can see this now with genetic testing and things like that. But I think that's an important piece to keep in mind. Now, I've read a lot of books on meat, and I've followed guys like Rob Wolf, Mark Sisson, people like that. And it appears most people do well with some meat. There's a handful of people who are high-methylators like Rich Roll, Darren Olean, who's coming on the podcast later this week, who's probably the most yoked vegan I've ever met. He's 46. On his 46th birthday, he threw a 100-pound weight vest on and did 10 pull-ups like a boss.

He's a savage. Most people do do better with a little bit of meat in their diet. And Rob Wolf was a raw vegan. A lot of these people gave that an honest go for years, felt their health dwindle, and then circled back to eating meat, and they immediately improved their health. For my wife and I, and again, I apologize for my listeners. I know I've said this a million times, but we did the 23andMe. We took our raw data and sent it over to foundmyfitness.com, Dr. Rhonda Patrick's site, and it showed that neither one of us can take ALA, alpha-linoic acid, from flaxseed and chia seed and use that to create DHA or EPA, which are critical for the brain. These are the critical fish oils.

When you take a fish oil supplement, that's what you're shooting for. Prenatals have DHA in it because mom needs it and the baby needs it. It's mandatory. So without that, if we went vegan, that would cause huge issues. We might not even be able to get pregnant. And then you look at, and it just goes down the list. We can't take vitamin A. We can't take beta carotene from carrots and sweet potatoes and turn that into usable vitamin A. We have to get it from egg yolk, liver, and different organ meat. At least half the population is that way, right? So you can't make claims that this is a healthier way to eat if

half the people on this planet would suffer severe health consequences without meat, right? So now the question becomes, okay, how do we do meat appropriately? And there's an excellent book called The Soil Will Save Us. Ben Greenfield did a podcast with the author, and it honestly, it covers it from all angles. It talks about how much better grass-fed, grass-finished meat is and pasture-raised chickens that eat bugs and worms and in their natural diet, not soybeans and fucking corn. And when you get that, you get a much bigger nutritional profile. You have much more CLA, conjugate linoleic acid, which is the fat that burns fat. You have much higher omega-3 content and a much better vitamin

and mineral profile in that meat as well. So all that with that. And then when you shift over to factory farmed, we know that toxins are stored in the fat. And this is in any health book. I mean, it's in How to Eat, Move, and Be Healthy with Paul Cech, Dr. Stephen Gundry, who wrote The Plant Paradox, talks a lot about this. All the lectins, all the antibiotics, all the shit that that animal's fed is going into your body. You get that in their animal fat because it's stuff that they can't break down. They're not shitting it out. They're storing it in their fat. And then that's what you consume.

So now you're going to consume those things. And that's causing a lot of issues for people. So there's a clear-cut difference from a health standpoint. There's a clear-cut difference from a health standpoint. There's a clear-cut difference on a spiritual standpoint. Are you eating a fucking animal that was born in the matrix or are you eating something that had a decent life before it died? And so I think those are all factors. And then even when you get into the environmental issue, grass-fed animals that are pasture-raised sequester carbon for up to 500 years into the soil. And as we saw in Fantastic Fungi, that cow shit that gets shit into grass and then stomped on by all the other herd that's walking around, that feeds back into the soil. And it actually helps create that ecosystem and save the soil.

It's one of the ways that we can create a really good living microbiome within the soil. So there's so much in there. And that's where I'm going to get to with this engineered meat. I don't know. I would say, I would kind of take that, I forget the term that you used. Cell-based meats? Yeah, for the cell-based meats. But the term that you used for the Nordic countries.

Oh, precautionary principle. That's how I would use that, right? And the reason for that is if you grow it in a lab, that could solve a lot of issues for people, right? You get the animal-based protein, you get a lot of things that we need, but where are the micronutrients coming from? That animal didn't live. It didn't eat anything. It didn't soak in sunlight, right? Like everything's built around photosynthesis from our ecosystem. So even if I don't consume plants, but I consume an animal that ate largely all grass-fed throughout its life, I am getting the photosynthesis from that animal who ate the grass. I'm getting these things, right? And iron and all the other things that go into the animal that

make it what it is, I'm getting that because it lived in its natural environment, ate the natural food supply that it was intended to do so. And I think that could be one of the missing ingredients. If I'm just eating meat for protein, it's no different than having a fucking whey protein shake. And I don't have whey protein shakes. Sorry, we know we sell that on it, but I just don't do it. I want to get that from animals because there's so much more to the story than just the protein I'm consuming. Right. Yeah. And conversely, if you are a vegan, there's so much more to the story in terms of where those plants came from. Because if you're going to get a Beyond Meat burger or an

Impossible burger, asking yourself, where did those ingredients come from? Well, they came from huge farms, soy farms, and those farms, both environmentally, and this is a point that's brought up in the vegetarian myth, agriculture is the problem. Mass industrial agriculture in general. Because a quarter of the United States is now dedicated to industrial agriculture. And when you ask the question,

what happened to those ecosystems that lived there? What happened to the wolves? What happened to the animals that lived on those prairies? Those animals all just got destroyed. They gone. They gone. Yeah. The mice, the falcons

that fed on the small animals, it all gets destroyed. And Beyond Burger, all those Impossible Burgers, they're loaded with glyphosate. Yeah. They're fucking loaded. And a lot of those are really hard to digest to begin with. Like,

so in the plant paradox with Dr. Stephen Gundry, he talks about plants as conscious. And that's one of the things I want to get out in the weeds here with psychedelics, but that's one of the first lessons I received from ayahuasca. Everything is conscious. Animism is real. Whatever soul I have, they have. And Gundry just says plain out, they don't want to be eaten. So they create their own natural pesticides and herbicides. And those are things that are stuff we can consume and not notice in one sitting. If I eat a kale salad, I'm not going to be like, man, I really felt like I just had a ton of oxalates. I don't have autoimmune issues. I don't have irritable bowel syndrome or anything like that. It's just not going to hit me the same way it would somebody that's already teetering on the edge. But at the same time, over the course of my life, if I continue to put that in my body, it takes its toll, right? They don't want to be

consumed either. Now, there's certain things that do want to be consumed that you have the seeds, you shit them out, and that's how that plant will reproduce. That's a different scenario. But he goes through that in the book, and I think it's a really important piece there. Yeah. It's such a nuanced and emotional conversation because if you're not really paying attention to this conversation, you could just hear like, oh, the Kyles are saying that meat is good. Okay, great. I'm going to go get my McDonald's burger. And that's going to be an animal that was fed corn from an industrial cornfield. And there's going to be huge amounts of pesticides. I'm like, no, we're not saying that. But at the same time, if you're a vegan and you're getting your food from these huge industrial fields, that's not great either. So it seems like

one of the solutions are try and get it locally sourced, if you can, from smaller farms and try and eat animals that had a variety in their diet or go hunt. And eat naturally. And yes, go hunt. That's a perfect segue. meats and on uh beyond uh beyond meats and the impossible burger and uh what's allowing the these meat alternatives to taste so much like beef is um this this uh organ it's a because you just call it a piece of dna called heme do you know about him yeah it's one of the most bioavailable forms of iron right so they just found a way to get heme out of plants and then load it into the burgers, which makes it have that kind of bloody, meaty taste. Interesting stuff. Well, that's always curious to me. It's like, why do we... I think Arby's just did a meat carrot just to fucking go heads up.

Like, all right, you guys are always trying to do like your plant burger, your plant cheese, your plant this and that. And so they did the meat carrot. But yeah, that's a funny thing. And again, I don't know that that's healthy either, right? Like we have an issue with women have a monthly cycle that helps them balance iron. Men do not, right? And there's quite a few doctors that are talking about iron overload and things like that. If we're using iron supplements

or different things like that, if you work out, you're in luck. You're going to burn through that iron because your body needs a certain amount for hemoglobin, oxygen carrying, and building red blood cells. And if you work out, even if you run or do jujitsu, you're going to crush a lot of those red blood cells from the impact, just repeated stress, right? So that's the turnover you want to not have an iron imbalance. It's a very easy test. You do a serum ferritin

in your blood work, and you can get that at wellnessfx.com without a doctor's prescription. It's a little pricey, but that's the way you can check on that. One of the ways that we can balance that if we are sedentary and not working out and not having that natural recycle is to give blood as men. That can be helpful. But in, and this is something I'm going to bring up with Paul Saladino because he talks quite a bit about this. He's the nose to tail carnivore doc, is that everything's in its right portions within the animal itself. And even in something like liver or organ meat that's just loaded with heme iron and B vitamins that are all methylated, the most bioavailable form of vitamins and minerals that we can take in, super high in

vitamin A, a lot of good stuff in the organ meats. Our body knows how to take in what it knows how to take in. And he has perfect blood work. He's fucking flawless. A medical doctor who's been on this for two years now. So I think there's something to that. Now, obviously, he has the genetics to eat that way. So that's just the only caveat I would say. Again, if you're from Central Africa,

you might not do well with that. As I was doing research for the article on cell-based meats, there's this huge aspect to the research that's being done around the nomenclature that society would adopt. So they found that lab-grown meat was a term that people really didn't like, whereas cell-based or slaughter-free meat were all terms that worked really well with the public. Oh, slaughter-free.

Slaughter-free, right? So they brought up this example of how in the early 1900s, the avocado hadn't been sold commercially in the United States. And when California farmers started adopting it, the avocado was too difficult to pronounce for English speakers. So they adopted a new name, which was called the alligator pear. So the alligator pear was not the most appetizing name and California farmers had a real hard time selling this. They got together and they lobbied the dictionary to change the name to avocado, which was really easy for people to say. And now California is the producer of 90% of the avocados in the US. That's awesome.

Isn't that an interesting story about just the marketing of how all this stuff will make its way into our lives yeah uh cell-based meats on the market soon there's a big there's a big battle right now between uh organizations like the good food institute they're a big one that works on cell-based meats and the meat and dairy lobby uh the the meat and dairy lobby is working to make it so that you can't sell um cell-based meats in the same area um of the of the supermarket as uh traditional meats and even that you can't call it uh meat like they they want to just totally change it so they're like no no yeah even though the the people on the cell-based meat side are like, no, no, no, this called Food Inc. And it's fucking phenomenal. And it just talks about how things are packaged in a way that we, it's packaged in a way that we're kind of removed from the process of how we get food.

Right. And this is the same for plants as well as meat. But the story that I like to say, and I get a lot of, have you gotten shit for hunting, especially cause you're environmentalist? I get shit for hunting when I talk about spirituality and plant medicine and things like that. But, um, it's such an odd thing because everything on this planet and likely in the known universe takes life to make it with maybe exception to plants, but fungi, they break stuff down, right? They're largely digesting, right?

They're eating things. Maybe they're already dead. You could have a fungal issue and be alive. That might kill you, but everything's trying to eat other things. And the closer it is to living, the more healthy it is for you. Well, I'm only a dead animal hunter.

So whenever I go out and hunt, I find an animal that's already been killed. Then I put an arrow in it. Kyle, the vulture tierman. They call me the vulture. Then I get my grip and grin shot with it like I killed it. And everybody wins.

You just got to clear the flies out real quick. That's me. It's just been laying there for a few days. It's like, this one still looks good. We're going for it. It's a wet age. Wet aged quick. That's me. It's just been laying there for a few days. It's like, this one still looks good. We're going for it. It's a wet age, wet aged meat. The rodent. Yeah. The closer it is to living, the better it is for you, right? If it's shelf stable for two years, that's a problem, right? In a box on a shelf, that's a problem. So I think that's something that important to consider. Also, I mean, I can say that that i don't i can't speak on behalf of all hunters but hunting for me was one of the most spiritual experiences of my life was it yeah

like absolutely i remember just taking a knee the first animal i killed was day one we got out and there was action with boars right from the jump there's on on the Big Island last year. We did a spectacular hunting trip with Peter Atiyah. Peter Atiyah, Ben Greenfield, Chris Ryan showed up. Yeah. JR. JR, Caustic.

Yeah. And then a couple of my buddies who are Hawaiians, Justin Lee and Jake Mews, took us out to go. Mark Healy. Mark Healy. Yeah.

We had a motley crew. Yeah. That all... motley crew. Yeah. That all... May I say, never would have happened without podcasts. That's true. Never would have happened without the advent of long-form conversation and us just gaining this really cool community from, let's be honest, the godfather, Joe Rogan.

It all comes down from like that epicenter. And now there are all these little micro communities that are formed from like-minded people that are like going out and doing hunting trips. Yeah. Pretty crazy, right? Just incredible. And yeah, speaking about Joe, like he's seeing him hunt was one of the reasons I wanted to get into it. Hearing him talk about it was one of the reasons I wanted to get into it. And I had my uncles and my dad and my granddad would hunt since I was a little kid. And I'd been on a couple of hunting trips when I was really young, but getting into football and fighting, I never had time for it. And I got to meet John Dudley. He hooked me up

with a bow on my birthday and trained me for two days. And then a year later, I'm on that trip and on my birthday, I get my first kill. And it was amazing. I felt a wash from head to toe with gratitude for the life of that animal. I eat meat. I'm always going to eat meat. But to be able to participate in that experience and to have a good shot to where I didn't just injure the animal and track it while it was wailing and then have to kill it, you know? And it was a really special experience. And the next shot, I did have to track the animal and kill it with a knife. And that was a completely different experience, but it taught me a very valuable lesson in only taking the shot when it's a clean kill, you know? Because those are sounds that you just don't forget. Yeah. And I don't want anything to suffer, you know, but at the same

time that provided food for myself, my family, my tribe, the closest friends. I got a neighbor who's a former special forces guy that we do big cookouts all the time. And we just had some backstrap from the board that I got and from one of JR's sheep because all the time. And we just had some backstrap from the boar that I got and from one of JR's sheep because everyone else other than me took home so much meat, they couldn't fit it all. So I got some of the runoff from the other guys. Do you still have some meat or is it all gone?

Oh, yeah. Yeah. That's been one of the coolest aspects for me about having gotten into hunting over the last few years is it's made me a much better cook. And so much more into prepping the meal. And I don't want to waste any of the meat. And I have my friends come over. It's a feeling like... I described the feeling of being around a campfire and looking at the fire. That kind of mesmerizing, deep human experience that you feel has been

felt by so many people before you. It's one of those same kind of experiences where you're feeding food to people that you know exactly the process of that animal from start to finish. And it just feels very right. It's like getting your back cracked in the way and you're like, oh, that's what needed to happen. That's really cool. And there's layers to the game, man. That's been a really cool aspect as well is to have some friends on Hawaii that have been hunting since they were 10 years old and they do it most days in the week. And those guys understand the layers to the game, man. I mean, those guys can track an animal

and understand where it's going to be, like the sixth sense. And guys like Justin Lee, who I met years before doing a documentary on coral reefs. That was my entrance into the hunting world was through a very strange back door i was doing a story on the impact that wild pigs were having on coral through land erosion in hawaii um because they're basically like rototillers with hooves and uh all when it

rains then in these watersheds mud will go out and it'll suspend over the coral and it kills the coral and i was out there with a production crew and Mark Healy had put me in touch with Justin and Justin took me out on a hunt and he ended up killing the pig. But I thought to myself, this is

an experience that you should really dive more deeply into. And there's a kind of intensity to it that isn't for everyone. But I think that for people like you and I who like to push that edge of ourself of discomfort, it's a place that you can push pretty hard

and it will push back. Yeah. Yeah. And it's all the in-between too. It wasn't just when I was successful in the hunt, like there was many unsuccessful moments for me. When you're just hanging out and like your buddy's giving you a blow job and really just waiting for the animals to come.

Like that's a great part of it too. You know, it's a great part of it. I wasn't going to bring that up. Oh yeah. Shit. I'm sorry. But yeah,

I remember being out with Healy and we were watching the sunrise and I could see it coming up off the ocean while we were in position. And it was so peaceful. And there's times where we're around the campfire and we're shooting the shit and we're talking about what we did right, what we did wrong,

what we need to improve upon and picking the brain of Justin and Jake and these different guys. But the vast majority, you're fucking dead silent. It's like a vipassana, like a silent retreat, you know, where you don't say a word and you're just in nature. And obviously Hawaii is like one of the most beautiful places on earth. So you're there in silence, hiking in the middle of the night to get into position, watching the sunrise waiting, and then you got one shot,

right? How do I get quiet inside? How do I calm my breathing, slow it down? How do I do all the things that I tried to master in fighting that I couldn't master? Let me get a crack at it now so I can shoot the clean shot. How is the conversation in your head when you're learning a new skill like hunting now? For me, when I was younger and I would learn a new skill, I would have a vicious conversation inside my own head. If I wasn't good at it immediately, the language in my head was something along the lines of, you fucking idiot.

What the fuck are you doing? You're just such an idiot. It was like, you deserve to die kind of language. And it's something I've worked on a lot. Like, whoa, dude, you got to chill out and pump the brakes on this negative talk. And now it's more like, damn, Kyle, better luck next time. It's like, you slowly shift the words. But what is it like? What does the conversation sound like for you now when you're learning a new skill like this? Yeah, there's a couple of things to that. I for sure had that kind of negative self-talk

and fighting in a lot of my fights. And it was something that I worked very hard to get out of my head. And that was where I first got into breathwork and visualization and a lot of shit just to get out of my own head and to be in the moment. But one of the practices that really helped me in fighting in particular was to just focus on whatever I needed to do next. If I get taken down and it's late in the third round and I've lost the first two rounds and it's likely I'm going to lose the decision to not sit there and go, well, you just lost the fight. Now you're going to go down the ranks. Then you just get 50% of your pay, like none of that shit, if I can focus on what

I need to do. So all I need to do at that point is get back up. And there are techniques that I can focus on to get back up, right? Get some head control, get wrist control, get to my feet, get up. So in the hunt, thankfully, I had at least learned that in my last four losses before I left the UFC with a tailweed to my legs. It was just that, you know, we'd get in position and the first thought would usually be slow the breathing. And I'd focus on that nose, nose, just getting really elongating the exhale and then line up the bubble, get in position, elbow up and wait. And, you know, the guides are great. You know, they're there right next to you and they're just whispering like, okay, go for it. And then you just let it go. But even when I was

failing miserably with the Axis deer, that's something that Rogan kind of prepped me with just in his talks on the podcast. It was like, number one, it's really good to do things you suck at. It's really good for you. It's good for your spirit. It's good for your brain. It's good for everything. It's good for a lot more than just the activity that you're doing. But also the fact that it was almost guaranteed I was going to suck. This is my first hunt. I had been on a rifle hunt for elk a year before that, and I saw the ass of an elk on the last day of the hunt. Didn't take one shot. So this is my first time really actually getting after it and being in that space. And there was a time where Justin and I, we were tracking, we were spotting stock,

and we were going for probably, I don't know, it felt like forever. And we got into a good position. And I was about 15 yards away. And he wanted me to wait for the buck. And I had already been unsuccessful for a few days and I was like, fuck it. I'm going to get a doe. I don't care. I just want the meat, you know? And I just want, I just wanted the meat and axis tastes incredible too. But I'm like, I don't need the buck. The buck's cool, but let me get a doe. And then I can start to wait on the buck. It's still going to taste great and still meat. And at 15 yards, I've got it lined up perfectly and it dumps the arrow.

The arrow hit a branch. It just knocked it down right in front of the animal. They didn't even move. Then they just looked at me. And then, of course, the... And then they were gone. Yeah, gone. So that was very frustrating.

But it was also... There was a lot of ways to look at that experience to celebrate the wins, right? And so the fact that we were able to get in a position and follow them and not, you know, with the wind dynamics and all the other things going on to not get sniffed out and spotted before we were able to get that close, to be able to get that close, that was a huge win. And so I think that's one of the things that I do now in anything that I'm trying new or I'm not good at it is just to celebrate the small wins. And that was one for sure. Yeah. And it sounds like another aspect of that mindset that's really helpful is to

maintain nuance. Whenever you're really hard on yourself or you think that you're the king of the world, there's no nuance in that perspective. It's either, I suck, I deserve to die, or it's, I'm the best ever. Neither of which are true. But to be able to maintain some level of truth in both experiences is what can allow you to learn those little lessons and move forward. Similar with what we've been talking about in regards to environmentalism or eating meat. It's a nuanced perspective that you want to be able to maintain. And to be able to hold both of those perspectives after an experience of, you know, whether you want to take it as failure or success, will allow you to move forward with the most grace.

Yeah. And I just think having that, the mindset of what can I learn? Like, what can I learn today? There's so much to learn with this, right? And I could hunt, you know, 52 times in a year. Every weekend I could go hunting. And if I did that for a year, I would still have years worth of learning, years more worth of learning to accomplish with that, right? So I think understanding that, if I just take the mindset of what can I learn from this experience every single day, that sets me up in a position to gain from it, right? And same thing goes for somebody, you know, politician, or even somebody on this podcast saying something that you might disagree with. If you adopt the idea of what can I learn,

that's going to position yourself in a different framework to be able to hear something that you can gravitate towards. Nothing pisses people off more than me talking about the open relationship. And I don't even need to go down that rabbit hole. I talk about it enough on the show. But my point is, there are people who have the what can I learn. And in a lot of times, this is non-prescriptive. I'm not saying enough on the show. But my point is, there are people who have the,

what can I learn? And in a lot of times, this is non-prescriptive. I'm not saying this is for everyone. I'm not even saying that I'll do it the rest of my life. Who the fuck knows? We're trying it out. But there are key takeaways that you can learn from that will help you in a monogamous relationship. If you have the mindset, what can I learn? Yeah. Yeah. And constantly putting yourself into new situations that scare you or new situations where you are at the bottom of the totem pole allow you to look at it from a novel and new perspective. And then you can come back into your world where maybe you're more towards the top of the totem pole and your mindset won't be as ossified as it once was because you'll remember what it felt like to suck. um, society is in order to, um, kind of cut young people down to size who, who were developing these delusions of grandeur when they would, uh, go get, uh, when they would have a successful kill,

it was common in a lot of these tribes to kind of heckle the hunter who made the kill and say like, oh, why did you bring me out here for that little bag of bones? If I'd known it was this skinny, I wouldn't have made the whole trip out. Another thing that they'll do is say that whoever's arrow, whoever fletched the arrow of the hunter, the kill goes to them, right? But hunters in a lot of these tribes

would trade arrows so frequently that it was very difficult for one person to be maintaining the kill more of the time. I'm trying to articulate this better. It was basically just this way to randomize who got credit for the kill, and as a result, to cut people down so that they didn't get too big-headed. And there's a line in his book where he said, one of these researchers was asking the tribe, so why do you do this? And he says, well, the problem is if someone gets too big-headed, it always results in death.

Damn. That's true though, man. I mean, you see people that have their quests for power and they're willing to destroy personal relationships and destroy the world as a result. It really comes,

in my opinion, from some level of insanity and some level of real deep lack and real wound that needs to be healed. And I think that a lot of... Man, I'm a big believer and big fan in a lot of the work that you do with psychedelics because I think that that's one of the most effective ways for people to heal that wound. Yeah. It's effective in healing the wound. And it's also one of the most humbling experiences you can have. Yeah. You know, and, and, and I mean that in the best way, you know, it's not just, uh, it doesn't even have to be with the intention of,

yeah, it takes so much that you have a panic attack or that it's really hard or bad or challenging trip. You know, like I've, I've experimented with some pretty heroic doses. And I think those were all calculated and guided sessions. But at the same time, there is something where you get to the threshold where you're no longer in control and you're forced to surrender. And that lesson that keeps coming up, even in this last trip we did to Costa Rica, where it was like, I forgot how challenging ayahuasca is. Physically challenging, mentally, emotionally challenging. I experienced all those in the four nights we sat with the medicine. And it was just, it was mind blowing. It was like,

fuck, it's only been two years. How could I forget this? How could I forget how challenging this is to feel like I'm going to throw up for hours and not be able to, right? And sometimes I am able to. That's almost better because there's relief. But that's just like one element to doing something that is difficult, that has huge payoff. Do you ever feel like psychedelics can get in the way of you getting shit done? Well, for sure. I mean, in anything in life,

we can lean on things to the point where they become a crutch. Right. And I only say that because I'm from Santa Cruz, where there are a lot of people who are so process-driven. It's almost like their whole life is just focused on them talking

about their own emotional process. But I'm like, yeah, but you're not actually doing anything. I also want to see you turn the paper in on time, so to speak. Get the project across the line. And I've benefited hugely from psychedelics as well. But I'm also in this time right now where I'm planning the motherfucker awards. And the idea of doing an ayahuasca ceremony right now feels insane to me because it just takes so much. But you're someone who, you do get shit done, and you're productive, and you're also deeply in this world. How do you maintain a balance between that? Yeah. So that's the nuance, right? That's the nuance of planning the big trips. I think

microdosing is definitely a different topic. But right now, if I'm talking about the heroic dose of psilocybin or something like ayahuasca, it's going to give you a lot, but there's also a cost to that. And that cost is processing, that cost is spacing, that's spacing ahead of time and afterwards to really integrate whatever those lessons are. So you do begin to embody that, whatever your teachings are, and make it the wisdom you wish to have in your life, rather than just a really cool trip where you had the dope vision and this is what it told me. And no, you know, I actually haven't done that yet. And you're like, no, it doesn't mean anything if you don't

change your life. Right. But I think with that, that's where it comes to being able to tune in. That's where a lot of these other practices from the East go hand in hand, breath work, meditation, even float tanks, things where you can find stillness, just a fucking, a walk, you know, walking contemplation. I'll do those two to four times a day around on it just to get out in nature. It's a one mile walk. Sometimes I'm listening to audible or podcast. Most of the time I've just got nothing in my ears and I'm listening to cars honk and birds chirp and whatever. But that gives me a little bit of space to get clear. And that's when the intuition kicks in. It's not when my monkey mind is racing and I'm

trying to figure everything out. It's when I have stillness. And if I can reach stillness, then I can tap into that. Am I ready? Do I need to do this? Or is it me? Is there more work to be done before that? And I think there are times in our lives where we get really busy with passion projects and things that are really important to us. And it could be different for you every time. If you do this Motherfucker Awards for the next 20 years, every year in December, there may be times where you're called to do the medicine because it's going to help you sort shit out ahead of time to actually improve upon the Motherfucker Awards or have balance

to maybe there's something that you're forgetting about tending your own garden and making sure that you're doing fine in the stress of putting together this giant project, right? And that's something psychedelics could give you. I know, I'm afraid I'm going to do ayahuasca and it's going to be like, why are you focusing on the negative, Kyle? Why are you diving into the depths of your soul?

I'm like, shut the fuck up. Bitch, this is funny. I'm going to try and make it funny. This is great. No, but I hear that sometimes with... I mean, the motherfucker words is a dark... It's kind of like a gallows humor. So you're diving into the darkness.

And in some ways, the more fucked up the issue, the funnier it can be. And I do have a fear sometimes around like, maybe I shouldn't take psychedelics a little bit around this. You know, the porn star Asa Akira, she's an Asian porn star. Many of your listeners will be familiar. She was on a podcast once. She was like, yeah, I'm kind of afraid of psychedelics and to go more... Or she's basically said like, I'm afraid of enlightenment because I really like what i'm doing right now and i'm afraid that like it will make me not want to do porn uh if i get too enlightened too quickly which is i think it's i don't know it's a fear that uh a lot of comedians

have um a lot of writers they fear that they'll lose their edge of darkness um if they become too enlightened i don't know i've thought about that with fighters too right you know like i i would their edge of darkness if they become too enlightened. I don't know. I've thought about that with fighters too. Right. You know, like I would happily take anybody with me to the Amazon or Costa Rica once they retire, but I'm not certain I would take people, you know, certainly never in fight camp, but I mean, even like in between, you know, like they still have hopes of becoming champion

and pushing themselves in that way, for me, it just lost its importance. I was introduced to this stuff and I think the timing was perfect because I had this coach who'd take me and we'd do traditional sweat lodges and he introduced me to working with psilocybin in the proper way with intention and respect and then ayahuasca as well. And this was the tail end of my fight career, but it just lacked its importance. It was like this, you know, fighting, whatever fight you have is the most important thing in your life. It doesn't matter if you're on a losing streak or a winning streak and you're headed towards the title, each fight's the most important. And it just lacked importance at that point. It's just not that important. There's a quote from a football coach once. I forget exactly the one.

I don't know if I actually agree with the quote, but it's interesting to ponder. He said, to be a really good football coach, you need to be smart enough to understand the game and stupid enough to not realize how important, how, and stupid enough to not realize how unimportant it all is. That's actually not a bad quote. Yeah. But I mean, you see that, you see a lot of coaches who, you know, their family lives are shit because they're so invested. Right. And I know a lot of fighters like that. I know a lot of fighters that get divorced, you know, especially if they, the fight career stops going the way that it once was, they stopped being the star that they once were. And it's hard for them to transition into

something else. I mean, shit, there's a lot of guys in MMA, Dan said, a lot of the, a lot of the OGs that started it all with the UFC that are still fighting at 50, 60. There's just not... If you don't think about what you're going to do after that, and you don't really have... I don't know if the education is the right word, but the passion to move into that space. Because you don't necessarily... Anybody can acquire the education after the fact. I didn't go to school for health and wellness. I went to school for communications, which I guess is helping us right now. But in that, those are the things I was passionate about. I was passionate about reading Paul Cech. I was passionate about reading about meditation and different things like that.

And that's what led me here. So I think anybody's capable of that without having to go back to college to figure it out. But you have to want that. You have to desire that. And I think for a lot of people, if it's all they know, they don't want the big shift. Are there any people in your life right now who you really look up to in terms of their ability to make those shifts with grace and just people who you're kind of modeling your decision-making after? Well, I mean, Aubrey Marcus is my best friend. And we've done... We've only known each other for two and a half years, but we've done a lot of

deep dives with the plants. And that's, as you know, incredibly bonding. When you shit your pants in front of your best friend, it really creates a bond. We did a boga and I shit my pants in his bathroom. I was like, oh, we're fucking in the medicine. friend. It really creates a bond. We did a boga and I shit my pants in his bathroom once. I was like, oh, we're fucking in the medicine. Thankfully, I was intelligent enough to bring a spare change of pants. Fist bump, bro. We're close now.

But he's a guy that I can talk to about anything. Absolutely anything. And whether that's relationships or finance or building my own brand. I mean, he's done it all. He's done it all before. And then, of course, any of the plant medicines. I mean, he's done literally everything I have. And I've got more experience in some things. He's got way more experience than me and others. And so it's an interesting person to have in my life. He's introduced me to fucking amazing people like Ted Decker, who wrote The 49th Mystic and Rise of the Mystics. Incredible books on spirituality.

I've been able to spend a lot of time with Ted. Porangi, who's on Spotify, did the Ayahuasca album for Aubrey when he did the documentary. Fantastic musician. A medicine man in his own right. You know, just a fucking beautiful human being. And Dr. Dan Engel.

The ayahuasca music is like... And there's some other instruments that come in. He brings in the dig. He brings it all in. It's fire. Dr. Dan Engel, who wrote the concussion repair manual, who's a dude who spent a year in the Amazon working with ayahuasca. And he's a licensed psychotherapist here in the States who works a lot with MDMA for PTSD with the MAPS group and just fantastic humans. So even outside, because I know him, he has planted seeds and given me so much outside of our relationship. And then when we have these big powwows where we all get together, there's a lot there. And I think those are the conversations that I have that really expand my mind and my awareness. And of course, if any one of them says, you got to read this book, then I'm all about it. It's like, oh, okay, I'm in. Say no more.

Just bought it. Yeah, man. The tertiary effects of being a podcaster are spectacular. The breadth and depth of the friend group that you develop, this is a great example of it, is reason for everyone to start their own podcast. Because you really can then call upon a lot of brilliant people who, after a good podcast, you can consider them friends. And it really enriches your life. And I said it before,

but the Motherfucker Awards would not have happened without podcasting. And just the people who have come in and allowed their help, for example, even our set designer and our motion graphics designer, these people that are just donating huge amounts of time for podcast listeners. And they just hit us up and were like, Hey, man, we're like-minded folks. And I think that it can be really helpful for people um to just realize that they're not alone in the ways that they think i think that you know there are people who feel like they're the oddball in their community and they don't have any deep friends that they

can connect with and um you're not alone peeps there's a bunch of weirdos out there just like you. And I commend you on being the conduit for so many people to be exposed to new information because you'll never fully know the impact that you have on people's lives, but you're doing it. You're doing it too, brother. Keep doing it, Kingsbury.

All right, Jeremy. Any last words? We've been going for a while. I think we're good. I did want to ask you a similar question you asked me. So obviously, getting in the podcast game, I know Chris Ryan was a big influence on that. And he's been a great teacher and friend of yours. What has he turned you on to that you weren't turned on to before? So it could be a book, it could be music, it could be just anything that helped shape your life. How to tell a story. Chris Ryan, man, Chris told me once he was doing this speaker series with all these people, and he knows Wim Hof, the man and uh chris was telling one of his great stories

to this group of people and wim came up and he he butted in he goes chris chris can tell a fucking story and uh chris is one of those people who turns experiences into a narrative in a really beautiful way. And every story that he tells is true. It's just that he has this ability to take the bits of an experience and then turn it into a story and leave out the rest. So I think that what I'm learning a lot about from him is how to find those little moments that will be relatable to other people and then how to leave out the rest. I think that, I mean, you know this as a communicator, a lot of what communicating is is not saying the unnecessary stuff.

Similar to like a good photo isn't so much necessarily about what's in the photo. It's what you leave out of it. So I've been focusing a lot on my storytelling abilities. And I actually do a newsletter now where every Friday, I write a short story. This can just be a little experience or kind of wisdom that I'm noticing. A lot of

times, they're kind of funny and satirical. Does this go up on your website? On my website, yeah. Kyle.surf. It's just a free weekly newsletter. And then a lot of times, I include good documentaries I've been watching or other articles I've been reading. But I've really focused on that art. And he's someone that has taught me how to... And is continuing to invest time into me and edits a lot of my work. And then as a result, it's also allowed me to get more into the comedy world because I think that comedians are some of the best storytellers there are. As far as a group of people that are so precise about the words that they choose to use and what they choose to leave out, comedians are masters. You see Dave Chappelle up on Netflix.

If you look at him just as a public speaker, he's one of the greatest out there. I don't know a ton of other public speakers that are getting their own Netflix shows. It's just comedians. As a result, I've been doing something that scares the shit out of me.

I do open mics here in Santa Cruz about four nights a week and get up there and... Four nights a week? ...tell jokes. And yeah, I eat shit a lot of times. When a bad set goes bad, it feels similar to how I imagine being waterboarded would feel.

But every once in a while, you get a good little joke. And I'm realizing what... I'm realizing a lot, both just in how to tell a story with a good setup and a punchline, and also just how people see me. Because I'm realizing like, oh, a lot of times, a joke won't work until I take care of the fact that like, yeah, okay, I get it. I look like a surfer. look like a you know santa cruz athlete like i have one that i i just thought i was like i i look like a guy whose father got him to got him into college by paying for the library i'm like okay cool like you get like you look like this privileged dude

um i have one where i look like a dude who thinks that reflecting on life is flexing in the mirror like so you have a few of those and like i don't have any grand aspirations to be a professional where I look like a dude who thinks that reflecting on life is flexing in the mirror. So you have a few of those. And I don't have any grand aspirations to be a professional comedian or anything, but I don't think I would have really recognized the power of a good story without Chris Ryan. Fuck yeah, brother. Well, you mentioned Kyle.surf.

Where can people find you online? Yeah, Kyle.surf, can people find you online uh yeah kyle.surf not.com uh is my website and my podcast is the kyle tierman show and you sir at kingsboo on instagram and twitter and kingsboo.com i do a monthly newsletter uh also talking about the books i'm reading any documentaries i've seen um i think i will start writing a bit more of the stories that are going on. Mostly, I've just been laying out the things that I'm into. The latest newsletter, the welcome letter. So everybody who signs up will get the welcome letter. I talk about the Stamets protocol for microdosing for a month straight, the brain reset. So I dive into it there.

Wait, I want to get this brain reset from you because i'm actually going to do uh i want to do a microdose uh i don't think anyone would mind say i'm going to do a housemate we're like all my housemates here we're all going to microdose for a month and then like come and see what all the effects would be oh perfect so what do you recommend as far as the protocol what he says is 100 milligrams of psilocybin and this is like your standard it's not a penis at me 100 milligrams um at least milligrams, but I'm probably going to take closer to 1500 milligrams of lion's mane. And then about a gram to two grams of cordyceps sinensis. So lion's mane has the ability to affect the neuronal pathways in the brain, increase neuroplasticity and different

connections. Also really good for the entire nervous increase neuroplasticity and different connections. Also really good for the entire nervous system, psilocybin as well. And then cordyceps is really good for enhancing the mitochondria and ATP production. And we know that the two largest organs in the body that contain the most amount of mitochondria are the brain and the heart. So that's like the triple hit whammy. And then you add in niacin between 100 milligrams and 1,000 milligrams. That's a pretty wide range. And then you add in niacin between 100 milligrams and 1,000 milligrams. That's a pretty wide range. And that's where you get the flush. So the idea behind that is the flush. You'll get itchy red skin. It's kind of uncomfortable. But that's going to push all the medicines out in the periphery of the body. So you'll get even further release of that extending

out into all of the nerves within the body. And you can run that five days on, two days off, and you can do it indefinitely. But he says, you know, a minimum of 30 days to get the brain reset. So I'll be running that and I'll be reporting back. I'm excited. Well, this microdose felt great. Oh yeah, brother. So fun, man. Let's do it more. Yeah, you got it, brother. Thanks for having me. Thank you guys for listening to the show with my dude, Kyle Tierman. Hit us up online, let us know what you think. And as always, go to kingsboo.com. Send me your email. You'll get a supplement list. If you don't give a rat's ass about the supplement list, that's fine. You will get a monthly newsletter, including a welcome letter that's going to tell you all the books

that I'm reading, all the info, the wisdom that I'm gleaning from that. Any podcast guests that I have coming up that I've really learned a lot from, and of course, any way that I'm experimenting with my consciousness or my own body through some substances, legal or not, that I happen to be taking. These are all the cutting edge techniques that I find to be useful that I really want to give an honest try. In the welcome letter, I talk a bit about the microdosing protocol Paul Stamets is famous for that I will be trying as well as now in the November newsletter, some really cool ways that I'm meditating. Check it out at kingsboo.com. And I look forward to hearing from you.