Kyle Kingsbury Podcast - #139 Jesse Gould, Kate Pate & Jariko Denman of Heroic Hearts Project

Episode Date: January 20, 2020

Heroic Hearts Project (HHP) is a registered 501(c)(3) non profit that connects military veterans struggling with mental trauma to ayahuasca therapy retreats. HHP opens the door to other viable options. HHP also provides support and professional counseling to these veterans throughout the process. In this episode I'm joined by founder Jesse Gould, team members Kate & Jeriko to discuss how the Heroic Hearts Project came about and how it helps vets and others today.    Connect with Heroic Hearts Project: Website - https://www.heroicheartsproject.org/ Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/heroicheartsproject/?hl=en Twitter - https://twitter.com/weheroichearts   Show Notes: The Oxygen Advantage book by Patrick McKeown - https://amzn.to/2ufY13q Ayahuasca - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ayahuasca       Check Out:  Kyle's Inner Circle Course (Private 1 on 1 Coaching) https://www.kingsbu.com/inner-circle   Natasha Kingsbury's E book (30 recipes)   Purchase for $5 at https://www.kingsbu.com   Show Sponsors:    OneFarm Formally (Waayb CBD) www.onefarm.com (Get 15% off using code word Kyle at checkout)   Concept 2 http://www.concept2.com/   Connect with Kyle Kingsbury on: Website | https://www.kingsbu.com/ ( Supplement List & Newsletter) Twitter | https://bit.ly/2DrhtKn Instagram | https://bit.ly/2DxeDrk Get 10% off at Onnit by going to https://www.onnit.com/podcast/   Subscribe to Kyle Kingsbury Podcast iTunes | https://apple.co/2P0GEJu Stitcher | https://bit.ly/2DzUSyp Spotify | https://spoti.fi/2ybfVTY

Hello, friends. Welcome to today's show with Jericho, Kate, and Jesse Gould from Heroic Hearts. These guys are doing some magical stuff for our veterans and really helping to pave the way into a new future where there is hope and people can find a sense of purpose and healing through modalities that are not found here in the West and are not a part of our standard of care. We talk about what is current in the VA. We talk about everything that happens in combat. We've got some veterans with us. And I think Kate, who's not a veteran, has many family members that are. And we dive right into different practices and ways that are actually working to help people heal long-term. Really cool podcast. Hope you guys enjoy this one. Remember to support the show by clicking subscribe and leave us a five-star rating with one or two ways the show has helped change your life for the better. Also, check out our sponsors. Today's

podcast is brought to you by OneFarm.com. OneFarm is exactly as the title of the website shows, one single USDA-certified organic hemp farm in Colorado. the title of the website shows, one single USDA certified organic hemp farm in Colorado. These guys use the best farming practices to bring you the best quality hemp products that you can buy. They use 100% CO2 extraction, leaving only the goodies found in their full spectrum CBD oil, which can be used in oils and tinctures. It can also be used as creams and rub-ons, and they have a brand new skincare line coming out for women and men as well. I use this shit too, and it's pretty fucking fantastic. But you get all that at onefarm.com slash Kyle for 15% off. That's onefarm.com slash Kyle for 15% off everything you order.

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Long before I had this equipment in my garage, we had this equipment on it. And for years, I've been using this. We've done acid baths, which is a 500-meter skier, 500-meter row, and a 1,000-meter bike four times. I do 10K rows frequently, at least twice a week, where I'm only breathing through my nose, working on some of the principles in The Oxygen Advantage by Patrick McCown. Phenomenal book you should read. We'll link to it in the show notes. And many other ways that I've improved my fitness by using their cardio machines. They tackle the body from every angle. It's not the same as just running on a treadmill.

You get the bipedal focus with the bike. You get posterior chain activation with the rower and you get anterior chain with the skier. Your entire body can be hit with these three beautiful cardio machines. And all you got to do is go to concept2, the number two,.com. That's concept2.com to learn more. Thank you guys. And I hope you enjoy the show. All right. So we're rolling. Jesse Gold, we've been in contact from a number of people have been trying to set us up for a while. So

I really appreciate you guys coming out here. And you brought a couple of friends, Kate and Jericho. Is that right? Can you guys all say your full names? Yep. Jesse Gould. Jericho Denman. Kate Pate.

Kate Pate. I like that. Easy enough. I'm sure kids were very gentle with that name. Cool. So we're going to talk a bit about the company that you've created, what you guys are doing. And I want to get background on to how we got to this place because this isn't a path you necessarily stumble upon. Right.

Were all of you in the military? No? I was. I did 20 years in the Army. Okay. Very cool. So let's start, Jesse. Let's start with growing up.

Let's start with what led you down this path. How you found medicine in particular and why you've decided to help. Yeah, of course. And obviously it goes without saying, thanks for having us and giving us a platform to share what we're doing. So my background is I was in finance. I had a degree in economics, went into investment banking in New York. I was right around the time of the financial collapse. And around that time, I also joined the military, became an army ranger, served for four years, three deployments. And then when I got out, trying to figure out what I wanted to do with my life, whether to go back into finance, figure sort of things.

I had a lot of confidence coming from Ranger, which sort of led me down this path where I was ignoring a lot of issues that I was having that started building up. And eventually, when I went back into a corporate job, a lot of those things caught up with me in terms of just realizing that there's this underlying depression, anxiety, just general unhappiness with life. And I ignored it and didn't really understand it because it wasn't necessarily a specific event related. It was just this dark cloud that was over me. And the options that were available to me through the VA just always included medication and nothing that really seemed like it could help. And so I was pretty much left to my own devices to figure out what I needed to do to solve these issues. Because I knew if I continued on that path, that it would just lead to either just an overall unhealthy life or some bad decision that I couldn't take back. Because that's the way

things were going. I was self-medicating a lot with alcohol, ignoring the issues, just the general ignoring it. Came across ayahuasca. I think initially I saw it on Netflix, heard Aubrey's podcast on Rogan. At first, I kind of had the knee-jerk reaction, hearing about dragons and fighting all this other kind of stuff. I was like, oh, that's not for me. Yeah, purging doesn't sound great. stuff. I was like, oh, that's not for me. Yeah, purging doesn't sound great. Yeah. I was like a dare kid. I came from that generation where if you did illegal drugs,

you were a bad person. It's either fried eggs commercial. This is your brain. This is your brain on drugs. And so it was this persona of like, oh, I'm this guy that doesn't do drugs. And that was a pride thing with me. But things came to a head and I was like, all right, well, this ayahuasca thing seems like it will kick my ass in some sort of way. I have no idea. And so I left my job and ventured to Peru and definitely kicked my ass. And it was all out war. Even after and Selection and all that kind of stuff, one of the hardest things I've ever done.

But within that, there was a respect that I built for it. If it was just this sort of happy-go-lucky, somebody massaging my shoulders experience, I would have probably walked away and not really gotten that much out of it. The fact that it really tested me, made me realize that it didn't live up to my expectations at all. And if you've gone through these sort of experiences, you just see around you these amazing stories of healing. Most people or a lot of people

find a lot of answers in themselves, and I was one of those. So then that started the thought process of, hey, this was my path. Other veterans should at least have this information out there. I don't think it's for everybody, but they should at least have the knowledge base that there are other options. Because currently, PTSD or whatever issues from the military are kind of viewed as something that you just have to deal with. And it's not something you can necessarily get over. And I just experienced something that could potentially help people get over it. And it was clear to me that this is something that needed to be better known in my community. And so that was the inspiration for Heroic Hearts Project. And in a small internet cafe in Colombia,

I started putting together a webpage. I started asking friends about what they thought about it, friends in the military. Did my own research, saw there was scientific evidence, even if it was pretty minimal at the beginning. And just things started working together to where it is today. So we've been around for nearly three years. And we've been able to send about 50 vets in terms of providing financial scholarships. And along that path, fortunately, Kate and Jericho were able to join the foundation.

And, you know, so the main mission is spreading the information on this in the most straightforward way possible, providing access to it with safe parameters and setting people up for success. And, you know, spreading the word not only to veterans, but the rest of the community. That's awesome, brother. Jericho, when did you get involved? And talk a bit about your background. What led you to be a part of this? Actually, what led me to this was Kate, pretty much. So I did 20 years in the Army. I was a ranger for just about 16 of those. I did 15 deployments to Iraq and Afghanistan. And then I kind of petered out around that time.

And mentally and physically, I was just broken from running hard for that long. I went up and I took kind of like my twilight tour. I taught ROTC at St. John's University in New York. And one of my goals after I left the regimen was like, all right, I need to take care of myself. I need to start doing my research. I mean, I was taking a handful of narcs a day, uppers in the morning to get up, downers at night to go to sleep, and then a whole cocktail of pain pills during the day. So one of my goals once I'm like,

hey, I'm not in the regimen anymore. I don't need to play hurt anymore. I need to take care of myself. So I started everything in the book you can imagine, acupuncture, gua sha, all those things for the physical side, talk therapy, yoga meditation, everything for the mental side. And not a lot of it was really working. I went to a program called NICO, National Intrepid Center of Excellence. It's basically a really in-depth, inpatient TBI program for soft guys, for special ops guys in the army. They only take about 20 guys a month to do this. So pretty much the best TBI treatment you can get in the DOD. Went to that, had every test known to man done to me. Found out I had some pretty serious TBI issues. I mean, I already knew that. So yeah, during that whole about three and a half, four-year stint, I was still active duty. So I was doing all these things that I was allowed to do.

During that time though, during my transition, I was listening to Joe Rogan and listening to him talk about the greatnesses of psychedelics and improving brain health, improving depression, improving all these things. So I punched out of the army a couple years ago. And I started smoking weed. And I was like, oh, wow. I always tell people the first time I smoked marijuana, I was like, okay, this being high is cool. But the next morning when I woke up, I was like, holy shit. This is what it feels like to have a full night's sleep.

It's the first full night's sleep I had in probably 15 years. So with that, I was like Jesse. I was a dare kid. I did not touch a thing from my whole life until then. So then, you know, with that, I started, hey, I'm going to try mushrooms. I'm going to try LSD. I'm going to try these things.

And they were helping. And, you know, it's a promise. But again, I was doing it kind of, you know, shithouse lawyer style, like Dr. Google, you know? So I was doing that. And then through this company called Softly, where me and Kate met, we were on this snowboarding trip. And we met, we knew each other on the internet and whatnot. But I took a couple of spills on the mountain. And I was talking to Kate about my brain issues and psychedelics and all that. She's like, well, have you thought about doing ayahuasca?

I was like, I don't even know what that is, but yeah, I'll do it. And yeah, sign me up. So she's like, well, why don't you do, why don't you get with heroic hearts? I'm like, I don't know what that is. So then it turns out that me and Jesse actually served in the same ranger battalion. Uh, we were like ships passing in the night. We didn't know each other. Um, but it just all, all kind of came to a head. Um, and then was it last May? Yep. Yeah, so last May I went down with Heroic Hearts Project just as a guy going to do it. Kate came down and, whew, yeah, like Jesse said, you know, it whooped my ass.

I told him that the first ceremony I ever did was the hardest thing I've ever done. Absolutely kicked my ass. I told him that the first ceremony I ever did was the hardest thing I've ever done. Absolutely kicked my ass. I did not know if I wanted to do it again. Going into the second ceremony, I was more scared than I've ever been in my life. You guys drink for four nights, just to clarify? Yeah.

On one week trip? Four nights over a week, correct. Okay. Yeah. So, yeah, after that, I was like, hey, you know, I went down to kind of just do it. And then afterwards, I'm like, hey, man, we got to get more dudes in here to do this. Like Jess said, it's not for everybody. But, you know, the guys and gals kind of like me who really put in years of work, years of their own research, years of doing traditional means of treatment.

And it just ain't working. It's kind of putting Band-Aids on bullet holes. And I was like, there are people who need to be exposed to this. And then there's a few people that need to have a kick in the ass to be told, hey, man, it's probably what you need. And it's just... So my role with the foundation is nobody... Not to sound like a dick, but nobody can look at my resume military-wise and be like, dude doesn't know what... I've seen the elephant. And if I'm out there saying, Hey, this is something that's, that's going to help people. It's not hippie dippy bullshit. It's going to really help, you know, push, push people over that hump that they need to get pushed over.

And additionally, it's really hard and it requires a ton of work afterwards. You know, it's, it's not an easy fix. It's not a pill. So basically, Jesse wanted me to be kind of the military liaison to talk to people about, hey, this isn't a fad. This isn't a drug. It's a medicine. And it's going to be... Hopefully, the word will get out and it'll be instrumental in stopping.

I just want people to get out and be happy. They deserve it. And hopefully, we get the word out. Yeah. Well, that's why you're here today. And I think it's really important to understand that, just what you were saying, it's important that people of all walks of life hear it in their corner, right? So I think Rogan told me this once,

the reason he had never done LSD is because the only people he had been offered by were some guy who hadn't showered in 40 days with a beard down to his knees, right? Like, hey man, you should try this. And he's like, nah, no thanks. So I think that's critical. That's also

one of the reasons I love Dorian Yates, one of the greatest bodybuilders of all time, who's now into yoga and ayahuasca and cannabis and all these different things. When he speaks to that, or Mike Tyson speaks to that, you hear it from every angle. When women speak to that, for women, it's really important that on some level, we can connect to the people that talk about it. Because if they just look at me or Aubreyrey talking about it it's like you know like people call aubrey rich hippie that kind of shit you know there's always some slight like sure that works for you but and they have to fill in some kind of reason they're not they're not down but it makes it i think more approachable for people if there's somebody that they can see themselves in, in a way. So that's really powerful.

And that's why I wanted my team here too, because it's the same sort of thing. If it's just me, then it's easy to be like, oh, that guy has this and this and this. Drink the Kool-Aid. The more people you have here, especially with some pretty impressive resumes, it becomes harder and harder for people to just say this is bullshit.

Yeah. Kate, why don't you jump in? Talk about your background and what led you into Royal Cards. So I don't have a military background, but I do come from a military family. I have three older brothers, two of whom served, my dad, uncles, grandparents. So it's just kind of in my family. And I've been doing military medical research meaning like combat trauma research so trying to find solutions for battlefield trauma like medical devices what can we do better to preserve

life for the past five years and through that work through my network through my brothers I just kind of have always been a part of this community it just feels like home to me like my like my brothers and sisters, even though I haven't been directly a part of it. So it's just natural that I always feel like I want to contribute more to those who have served. I came in contact with actually another Ranger, Army Ranger friend. And he told me about Jesse and Heroic Hearts Project through his own healing journey. And I was actually shocked by the changes that I saw in him. So I was like, who is Heroic Hearts Project? And what is ayahuasca? Because again, like dare kid thing, right? Like I had three older brothers, all of whom did all the drugs in the world. So like I didn't need to do them because I saw them.

I was like, cool, I'm not going to do that. That doesn't look fun. So I never did anything, you know, like, like that at all. And started looking into ayahuasca. And I had the same sort of experience where you hear people pushing different psychedelics. And it's like, you know, I have friends who did LSD would go to concerts and did mushrooms that would go to concerts. And it just, I never understood the therapeutic potential of these as medicines. It was just like, go have a trip. You know, like that was sort of my impression. And I started looking into ayahuasca and what Jesse was doing. And I was like, holy shit, this is incredible. And I start, I'm a nerd, right? Like my background, I have a PhD in neurophysiology. So like the first thing I did when I found ayahuasca was like research,

like what do we know about this? What does it do? What does it do to your brain? How does all this stuff work? And I was blown away by what I was reading. And I had no idea about this medicine and became really curious around it and got in touch with Jesse. And I was like, man, what are you guys, what are you doing? And are you doing any research? Like, is there something I can help you with? Because maybe we can do some research together and study this in the veteran population. And so Jesse was like, that's a great idea. Like, let's see what we can do. So we started brainstorming ways that we could look into conducting research in this group. And he had already received a grant from this company that did gut microbiome analysis. And so we started looking into that and how that potentially could play into these effects that we see from the medicine. What is it doing to the gut? We're starting to understand now how the gut microbiome plays into health and wellness, especially mental health and wellness, and how

that plays into inflammation in the body. And so we were like, man, let's start hypothesizing some things. Let's create some research around this. And he invited me to go to Peru with the group, with Jericho and others in May. And I actually had my own healing journey that I was on. I had an interesting childhood, I'll say. And my brothers, my three older brothers were my rock. And when I was a senior in high school, actually here in Austin, they left, they went to college, and I was all of a sudden alone. And there were a lot of things from my childhood that kind of preceded that. But that moment when all of a sudden my brothers were gone and I didn't have that anymore was really weird for me. It was the sense of this just weird loss of brotherhood. And that

kind of precipitated some things for me that led me down a path of just really trying to work through really difficult things and different types of traumas. And for me, I chose alcohol and I chose food. So I developed an eating disorder and I chose alcohol. And so for years I was trying to numb myself. Like, I don't want to feel anything. I just push it away. And I grew up in a family that was like stoicism, you know, Irish Catholic stoicism is the way to go. You don't talk about problems because you don't have any and just you don't ask for help. It's like, just pretend like nothing's wrong. And so I went that way, which is extremely damaging to me. And over the years, that's sort of the route I was going down. Highly effective individual in my day-to-day, achieving and accomplishing athletically and

academically. But then internally, I was just a mess and hit it well. Nobody really knew about any of that. And so I was still making my way through that. When I came to Heroic Hearts Project, there was still some residual stuff. I mean, I've been doing meditation for a number of years and working through all of this for a long time and getting to a really good place. But there was like, I described it to Jesse as kind of like this stuckness. Like I made it so far, but I'm stuck and I'm still dealing with this stuff. Like I don't know how to get through it. Nothing's working. You know, I don't know what else to do. And when he invited me to come down to Peru, I was like, well, maybe this could work for me. I mean, I'm not a veteran. I haven't gone to combat. You know, is this

appropriate for me? Because I was a little skeptical. I was like, well, I don't really fit that description. And I just didn't feel like maybe I belonged, like it would be for me. So anyway, I went to Peru. And the first night I was having all of those feelings of like, shit, why am I here? Their traumas and problems and issues

are so much bigger than mine. I feel like I don't deserve to share space in this room. And that was really difficult, but like that opened up so much more for me. And like, there's a whole like 10 hours of podcasts to like try to decipher our, our experiences, but I'll say that that broke open so much in me. And it was by far the hardest fucking thing I've ever done in my life. Like every night we went, it was like, we were going to war. We were going to battle and none of us really wanted to go back each night. It was like, fuck, like what are we doing? And knowing that it would be worth it, but like it was hard work. And so I've had my own healing journey, which has been beautiful through this process.

But I was also witness to these fucking battle-hardened warriors who are so tough in so many ways. And we're all human at the end of the day. But I was able to witness some of the changes and the growth and the people here and others who were with us. And I was like, oh my God, like just witnessing it, not even knowing the research behind it, which I do, but like, you know, just to witness it, it's like, this isn't for everyone, but it has the potential to drastically change somebody's life for the better. And so I'm so stoked to be a part of the organization and it's just been, yeah, it's been a huge blessing.

And yeah, I'm just really glad to be here. Yeah, I'm so happy and thrilled that you got to participate in the medicine. It is, it's not for everyone at the same time. And it is for everyone, you know, and it's not for everyone in the way that it takes a certain person and a certain degree of, I'm willing to go through this really hard and difficult thing. It's not easy. You're not getting the shoulder rub. It's hard physically on the body. You could feel nauseated the entire time. You can be very, the more in resistance you are, especially if you haven't exercised that tool in life to surrender and have acceptance, the harder that

experience can be. And they can be beautiful. I've had many experiences that were the massage on the shoulders, but many more that were a very challenging experience. And I think that's of all these medicines, and I do want to talk a little bit more about the broad scope and what the standard of care is without these things on the table. But I think, you know, one of the reasons that I think ayahuasca will always have a seat at the table among all plant medicines is the fact that it is one of the most challenging, you know, outside of a boga, it's incredibly challenging. It's something I forgot. You know, I talked about this on my podcast with Godzi. It had been two and a half years since I had sat in ceremony with ayahuasca, and we it was fucking hard, but beautiful in the end. Absolutely beautiful. So I think that's a great caveat to post for people that it isn't for everyone in the sense that you can't just take somebody's hand and bring them to the altar. They have to be ready.

They have to want it for themselves. But anybody who feels called to that medicine, typically, with exception to some medications, they can go. And so in that sense, it is for everyone. But I wanted you guys to break down. You know, I watched this episode of Weed-A-Kit years ago. And I think it was the second episode of the first season where they talked about, I think it was called Stoned Vets. And they were talking about cannabis consumption among veterans.

And really went deep into the standard of care that the VA is doing. And you guys mentioned numbing with alcohol. It seems, and I don't know if this is the case now, but it seems like quite a few of the medications from the VA are numbing medications like methadone and things of that nature that aren't healing anyone. They are just getting people by, as you mentioned, Jericho, like a Band-Aid on a bullet hole. Talk a little bit about that, as you mentioned, Jericho, like a bandaid on a

bullet hole. Yeah. Talk a little bit about that, about what's going on right now, because it's clear to people on the outside that it's not working. Yeah. I mean, I can talk, you know, my experience just because I had that whole, you know, like I said, like four year, uh, episode where I was trying and trying, tried everything. Um, and you know, I'd been on deployments, I'm, I'm diagnosed with PTSD and TBI and all that stuff. I'm like stereotypical broken veteran guy on paper. You know what I'm saying? So, um, I entered in to, you know, the, because I was in New York and there's no military bases there I was kind of remote so I got my care through the VA at that point which was kind of a blessing

I got to navigate that world while still having the safety tether of being active so if I really needed to I could go to another military care facility so I go to do mental health. The waiting list in New York for talk therapy, actual talk therapy, was like two and a half years at that point. But I was able to see a different psychiatrist versus psychologist. So he prescribed me antidepressants. what a different psychiatrist but versus psychologist right so he he described or

prescribed me um antidepressants um which i a couple other guys that told me hey man like don't go down that road you don't want to do that but they talked me into it i'm like i'm gonna give it a shot um so like i said you know i had my issues but i had never really had suicidal ideations before um you know i real depressed and stuff but i never had that like back in my mind hey you I had my issues, but I had never really had suicidal ideations before. I was real depressed and stuff, but I never had that back in my mind. Hey, you should kill yourself. Once I was on those, I did. I absolutely started having suicidal ideations.

I was in a relationship at the time. It got real, real toxic and bad. And I think the warning label or the commercials like, make her kill herself, anal bleeding, all that stuff. That started. And luckily, I was in a relationship with my girlfriend at the time. Her brother was a ranger as well. So she had a little taste. She didn't freak out completely. Got all business, rallied the troops, rallied my friends and they came over and I basically kicked antidepressants cold turkey. It took about two weeks. They just kind of babysat me and made sure I was good. Also during that episode, I contacted my care provider and was like, hey, this is making me want to kill me. He's like, okay, well, we'll just up your dosage. And actually, I didn't call. I was in person for that. And I wanted to throw the dude

through the fucking window. I looked at this little twat and I was like, I'm going to throw you through the window, dude. And I just left. But what really, my old, the best job I ever had in the army was being a platoon sergeant, the platoon daddy. So I always think, the first thing I think is, I wasn't mad for me. I was like, dude, what about every other kid who walks in the door and you're doing this to them? How many kids have you fucking killed with your shitty care? So basically the VA, they throw pills at it. That's it. I don't want to demonize the care providers though. I mean, there's just a backlog, man. There's so many people going in there trying

to get care. And there is also this culture in the veteran space, the veteran space air quotes that, you know, oh, I went to war, then I should like have PTSD. I should have mental problems. There's kind of been this like, it's hip to be screwed up, you know? And I think some people have started identifying with their issues rather than like wanting to fix them, truly. And that makes the system get bogged down. I think that's, if I can jump in, that's true in many walks of life.

And that's, I think, where Eckhart Tolle talks about this in A New Earth. If the first time, if you had it rough as a kid or in any situation in life and you get hurt or you get sick or whatever life circumstance throws at you and that draws in care from other people, then people can become attached to the idea of their illness or their, this is me now. And we identify with shit all the time. We say, I'm a Raiders fan or I'm a this or I'm a that, I'm a CEO. And that becomes a part of the identity. They talk about that in Fight Club, right? You're not your fucking clothes, you're not your job, you're not the car you drive, and you're like, God, this is so true. But here we go along through life and we do that. And I think that's probably

one of the deeper issues in having a victim mentality is not even recognizing that you have the victim mentality. Because in some odd way, the subconscious understands the people around you will care for you. And that's what you're looking for, is for people to care for you. And if you can be seen as somebody who's broken or somebody who's hurt, and this is not to say this is fucking across the board. I do not want to paint a picture and certainly not. I have a lot of friends in the military, a lot of retired guys that I'm buddies with, and I'm not saying that this is the case with any one particular type of person in particular, but everyone's seen somebody like that who walks around and says, you know, life's good if I wasn't in the car accident or life's good if I didn't get blown up or whatever the case is, right? And they can hold

on to that. And I think ayahuasca is one of those things that is the deep revealer. Whatever is going on underneath the curtain, when that gets exposed, you can't hide it from yourself anymore. And I think that's jarring for sure, but it also raises the level of awareness to a point where now you have to face the shit. And then what you choose to do with that is the medicine. You drink the cup, it doesn't heal you. But if you can integrate that and actually listen and say yes to whatever's shown to you, that then gives you a path out. And we found that you have to be already on that path in some sort of sense too. Because if you are entrenched in that victim mentality, oftentimes some of our vetting process, we find that that might not be the person that's ready for this next part of their journey. They kind of have to make almost that hitting rock bottom. They almost have to be willing to get out of that.

Because there is the component of psychedelics especially ayahuasca that it can be very hard and sometimes i can feed into that victim mentality as well of like oh this bad happened to me and then i had this horrible experience and blah blah blah and so it needs to be somebody that's been put down or been beaten down enough by this mind frame. When they do see the light, they do see these answers. They're like, okay, this is the harder unknown spot. I'm no longer getting this comfort of being in this victim world, but this is what I need to do to resurrect my life. I think too, one of the things that goes hand in hand with this identifying

with these certain aspects of who we are, and maybe it's the victim mentality. It's also this, I think part of what plays into that is that we forget that we have the capacity to heal ourselves. And ayahuasca shows you, I mean, we joke about it all the time. We had all these really weird cliches come up in our ceremony. And, you know, it's funny because all of a sudden some simple thing like you are the medicine, which sounds super cliched, like you feel it and you're like, oh my God, I'm the medicine, you know, like you have those moments. But it's like in the experience, you understand that you have the capacity to heal. And I think our culture is one

that you are a victim. You can't heal yourself by internal means. You've got to look outside of yourself for healing. And because of that, it's like, well, I'm fucked. I got diagnosed PTSD. I'm fucked. This is what I've got to deal with instead of like, well, I was diagnosed with this thing, whatever it is, and I'm going to heal it. I'm going to fix it. And I'm going to do that through all of these means because they're available to me and they work. And I think that that is starting to shift. And I think some of these medicines are starting to show us how that can happen in a spiritual way and also a physiological way. As we start to understand the research behind these medicines, we understand what it's doing internally. And it's like, it's mind blowing. It's like they are such powerful medicine for healing. And it is possible. Even, you know, TBI after TBI,

sure, there's brain damage that exists. You can't deny that. And yet these things are promoting neurorehabilitation, neuroplasticity, things that you just would never have expected was possible. And it's really cool. And I think Jericho referred to this too. It shows you the way, but it also requires discipline as well. And that's the integration part at the tail end. If you receive these answers, are you going to be disciplined and hold yourself accountable

to follow through with that? You know, there's a lot of people that are like, hey, I'm miserable and blah, blah, blah. It's like, dude, you're eating pizza every night, you know, and it's all connected. You have to be willing to be disciplined, sacrifice the immediate pleasure for longer happiness, healthiness, all that kind of stuff, which is hard. And because of that mentality, I think we get caught in to this sort of, this pill is going to cure me and I have to do nothing else. And there's always going to be people like that, but the whole psychedelic process is changing that mind frame completely. Because there's a lot of people that even go to ayahuasca and have these profound insights,

but they keep going back regularly trying to address the same exact issues. And that's a mentality that really needs to change, and that's what we're trying to enforce with this. And that's really why we say it's not for everybody, because it potentially could be, but they have to be on that path. They have to be willing to make, you know, maybe even we were talking about this, like change relationships afterwards. If you have talked to people in your life, if they're always going to the bar, if they're always doing drugs, maybe you have to change some of these relationships. So you're not always going to the bar and going right back into that bad

sort of stream of life that put you there in the beginning. Yeah. They say the hard work begins once you leave. And that's absolutely true because you will have a profound experience and go back to your normal life and do the same shit if you don't work for it. Yeah. And I had that kind of, I am the medicine epiphany. And then now I'm, I kind of, it's funny. I see myself as a car and when I have feelings, you know, I'm like, okay, this is just a symptom of something. And I think about my body in terms of, I'm looking down at the dashboard and my check engine light came on or my low tire pressure or my whatever. I'm like, man, I feel really fucking

sad. I feel depressed. Like I feel depressed right now. All right, cool. Well, what's going on? You like drank a couple of times this week too much. You know, you're eating like shit. You haven't been in the gym as much, you know? And I didn't have that before. Like I couldn't recognize my feelings as symptoms. I recognize them as like they're bad and they're making my life miserable rather than being like, okay, this is just an indicator of some other aspect of my life making me feel this way. And I think, you know, however it happened, ayahuasca is what did that. And it's also made me see that like not all the time are those things bad. You know, sometimes I talk to Jesse and not all the time are those things bad.

Sometimes I talk to Jesse and Kate all the time. I'm like, man, I just feel down. They're like, well, sometimes you just need to feel sad, man. Sometimes you feel happy. It's just a natural thing. So like Jesse said, it does require discipline. But I think what it did for me is really made it so I can have some, like, I can really like look at myself like a machine and not see all these emotions as being uncontrollable things. Right.

Like I can affect how I feel both in my body and in my mind. Yeah. Checking in. I like the car analogy. You know, there's a ayahuasca for sure is one of these tools when ready and done appropriately then can raise our level of awareness. And as we become more aware of what's going on, you can see that, okay, this isn't happening to me, right? Like life doesn't happen to me. And maybe there's some things that I can change that will affect how I feel, operate,

and think in the world. Yeah. Right. So you can start to connect all those pieces. I'm reading this book right now that's blown my mind. It's called The Vedanta Treatise. And he uses a car analogy as well. And he says, if your car is in park and you turn the car lights on, you can see a fair distance in front of you. You can't see the whole path. But you could drive that car the whole length of a country and the lights will always light the way in movement, right?

So it takes going through these processes, opening up our awareness, which maybe gives you a little bit more light on the path, but then actually driving the course to see what's in front of you. That's where the path gets illuminated. You don't get to see all the way into the future, but you see far enough ahead of you that you can still see the road. Yeah, that's a funny analogy because in the Army, we had an analogy like when you're driving at night under night vision, like don't outrun your headlights. If you're driving too fast for the reaction time of how far ahead you can see your headlights, you're going to crash, you know? So it's another good headlight analogy. Like going too hard sometimes. Yeah, really good. So there's, there's, um, there's a couple of promising things that I see, you know, and really when, uh, I think it

was Daniel Carcillo sent me a video promo video of heroic hearts and I was blown away. I was like, fuck yeah, this is something that I've thought of. Uh, since I got into ayahuasca and having, you know, my wife and I met on a Goodwill tour for the troops through Armed Forces Entertainment. And I have a lot of love for the military, a lot of friends in the military. And, you know, in doing my work, like, I think when you first start on any path, you're like, holy shit, like, here's an option for people. And, you know, we're pretty close, Aubrey and I, with Rick Doblin and the crew at MAPS. And obviously, they're doing great work with MD MDMA psychoassisted therapy options, right? And maybe that one is a little bit more of the shoulder massage can still be challenging for sure when done in a ceremony context. But you guys are the first that I've

heard that are doing this specifically with veterans. And I think that's really important because it gives, again, more options. And those options are available right now, right? We don't have to wait until MDMA, even though it's been fast-tracked by the FDA and it will go through, it doesn't, you don't have to wait for that. Like, people can get help now. Talk about how you've set this up, like, through the program, because you guys raise funds to send people for free. Is that correct?

Mostly for free. We try to have them have some skin in the game just so they're connected to it and they have to work for it a little bit. Like you said, Rick Doblin and the MAPS crew have done fantastic work.

It's definitely allowed foundations like us to be present and gain money because it's like the blueprint for it all. So Heroic Hearts, one, it speaks differently because veterans speak in a very, they have their own language. And so I feel like we speak well to the veteran community and help that translation process. But two, the crisis is right now. Anybody who has been in knows far too many people that have committed suicide, have far too many stories of the same sort of thing of just hitting a dead end or being on too many medications with the VA. And so it's just one of those things of like, we can either wait a couple years until Congress,

until the FDA get their head out of their asses and allow these things to actually be even studied, or we can try to find this approach right now. And so fortunately, we're spread out in this very gray area where because we are not administering the ayahuasca ourselves, we are just facilitating people getting to countries where it is legal. And so that way we can still operate as a nonprofit in the US. And they can do it in a different country where they're not worried about the legality of the DEA coming ready to ceremony. And they get out of this sort of mental complex, like what we're saying, this dare sort of mentality, and they can go to a spot where there is this traditional aspect, where it's revered, where there's so much ceremony and beauty to it. And it just provides us this awesome platform for veterans to do it now.

And so it's still tricky because, you know, we and some other organizations are really sort of finding the path of the best ways to do it. We are working with a high-risk population, and the last thing we want to do is cause more harm. And so we have to be very careful on how we approach this, how we vet the people going. And obviously, with the help of Kate, we're trying to document as much about it so we can contribute to the research going forward and also do our jobs better when we get the feedback. So for instance, we're doing one of the first gut microbiome studies. We're also doing a personality study through the University of Georgia.

And so with that information, then we can possibly tailor it or see which people might respond differently to it or what approaches to take. And so it's been interesting. But, you know, just every time I see the results, it is absolutely necessary. But it is dependent on donors and it is dependent on, you know, one of the things I'm trying to help with right now is even just trying to find some government funding. Because that's like what I do for a living is write grants, get projects up and running. And one of the things we're having a hard time doing

is trying to find any source of federal funds to even do an observational study. But that's one of the things we're looking at too because all of this costs money. It costs money to send these guys and the women and it costs money to do research. And so how do we, as a nonprofit, how do we do that better?

And that's part of getting the word out too. And so there's been a few like courageous individuals and companies. Dr. Bronner's is one of them. They were like one of the first to support us in a lot of this. They're incredible. They donated, I think, a million dollars to MAPS or more. Probably more than that now. And so it's breaking.

And so we just need those people that can think 10, 15 years down the line and realize that this is. And just having people like this talk about it, hopefully that breaks sort of the dam and brings in more money. But what people don't really understand on the outside, if they don't do a lot of research, is for most people's perspective, they see something like, oh, well, if it's effective,

why isn't it going through the FDA? Why aren't people studying it? But they don't realize the catch-22 to our current drug policy system, where these, including marijuana, are all considered Schedule I drugs. And in order to study or in order to change that, there has to be significant scientific proof that it has medical benefit

and it's not extremely addictive. And even though we have a tremendous amount of anecdotal evidence that shows that, it's not enough, right? But in order to research it, one, you need a lot of funding. And two, you have to go through all these loopholes. And effectively, if it's a Schedule I drug, it's been nearly impossible for any research body, any research facility to further the evidence on it because of all the regulations that have to go through, the just amount of money it takes. And there's actually specific writers in funding clauses in the federal government that prevents federal money from going into this, which then also prevents universities from funding it

because they're afraid of losing all their federal money. And that's how the government's kind of been pushing or restricting all this research. Just to give perspective, MAPS is doing the MDMA study, been declared a breakthrough therapy by the FDA. The last trial, they're on phase three trial. So if this goes through as it should,

it should be legal within a year. They've had like tremendous results with treating PTSD. This last phase cost them over $25 million. And every single one of those dollars came from private crowdsourcing. Not a single penny came from the government. And this is the biggest breakthrough in PTSD research in history. And so that has to make people question of where are the priorities? Like why you would hope that the government would be like, oh, great, we finally resolved this issue

and here's some money, research this more. But that's obviously not the case. So there are some things that we really need to take a magnifying glass to and understand why this is what has been the sticking point here yeah yeah it's making me think of uh cannabis you know i have a buddy who's was uh i think he's still i mean he is active duty still in uh the israeli army fought with me in the ufc noah lahat he's been on he's been on the show before in israel they've been studying cannabis and its constituents, all the cannabinoids, terpenes, everything for 30 plus years. And that research is not used in the US because it's not done stateside. Same with ayahuasca. It's all been done in Brazil and it's an incredible work. And

you don't find any of these same publications coming out of the States. That's another loophole though, right? Because you don't allow us to study it here. And then you don't take it from a country who clearly is doing sound research and science based on this stuff and has been studying literally for decades. So the funny thing, and that's that cannabis is like the perfect story of the problem with the system because there's been people trying in the US to study this, and it makes sense, right? It's a commonly used substance, and it's clear to the vast majority of people, even the American Legion, that it has some sort of medicinal therapeutic value, right? That's almost beyond question, or hopefully beyond question at this point. And so the people that try to research it, the DEA solely controls the only farm that is eligible for research-grade marijuana.

And it's part of a university. I forget. It's like Mississippi or something like that. And it's the only one. And they said that they would provide permits, but they've yet to do that. And so these researchers that got it, they literally got, this is from talking to them, trash bags with various marijuana just filled with that, stems and seeds, all low quality. And on the trash bag, it had written like 5% THC, 10% CBD, like completely unscientific. And so they got all this money to research and they couldn't really use it because the product that they're getting is just, there's no way to verify that. There's no way to really use that in a double-blind controlled study. on marijuana. The other side is always kind of using this underlying fact of like, oh, well,

where's the research? Without admitting that you can't actually research it in a real way. It's interesting you brought up the point around cannabis. And obviously, I think that's another argument that naysayers use is, well, if we can't get it in a double-blind controlled study, we have to know exactly what we're studying and if it varies from plant to plant and the time it was harvested and all this other shit. So we have to make it into something that's a synthetic, right? So I know they've studied synthetic psilocybin in university, and that's one of the ways that they can gauge the experience milligram for milligram as opposed to different strains of psilocybin. Psilocybin has many different strains and many of which are much

stronger than other strains. But when you take it down and you try to boil it down to this singular alkaloid or cannabinoid and you say that this is the only medicine in that plant, that is a huge misrepresentation of what nature has created. And that story can easily be told in the Marinol story, right? Like how many people, cancer patients were given Marinol, which is the synthetic THC. Rogan's talked about this before. And all of them inevitably said, I don't want to take this fucking capsule of synthetic THC. I want to smoke weed. because in smoking cannabis, before they understood it, before all the research and all the other cannabinoids and terpenes, the essence of that plant that's in there, they were trying to say that it's only the THC that works. And the user

knows that's not the case, right? If you were just to take an MAOI with some DMT, it's not the same experience as going to the jungle and participating in the full magic of that plant, of what ayahuasca is, all the plants that go into that tea. And then you get more complex, which is beyond research in some capacity of the ayahuasca

ceremony itself, of the singing, the acardos through it, the group therapy side of it. All these things are considered placebo in a lot of aspect, but they're enhancers. You know, there's no reason. I understand from the scientific method, there is reason to isolate it,

but you're also detracting from the whole experience, which in itself is very powerful. Yeah, I mean, I'm a scientist, so I'm naturally a skeptic and I understand the importance of evidence-based medicine a hundred percent. And I know that, you know, science is here to help us understand these things better, but there's a certain point where you strip things down so much that you, it loses meaning and it loses all context. And I think that some of these medicines, these plant based medicines, you were running that risk right now of trying to study it in a Western science way that really jeopardizes what we're, what we actually know about it. And it's like, sure,

you could study DMT and we can look at the, you know, which receptors it activates and which receptors it binds to and what that does. But you know not how it all works. For ayahuasca, there's alkaloids in there that also contribute to what's going on. But then there's the ceremony. There's so much that goes into these experiences. And I think that science is important, but I think evidence-based medicine doesn't necessarily have to rely on the double-blind, placebo-controlled, randomized clinical trial. I think that there's enough that we can study in various ways to still answer some questions without having to just separate and pull apart every aspect of it. And I think, I mean, with ayahuasca, it's really tricky, right? Because like you have different brews and there's so much, like, I mean, in Peru where we went, La Medicina with Chris, like he specifically puts different

types of barks in his brew to make it extra hard. Like the point is to do work. So for him, when you go there, you're going to do work and it's going to be hard, but that's different than the next place and they all make it differently. So do you isolate that and say this much DMT and this much of the, you know, harmaline alkaloid is that's, that's the pill that you study in a scientific, you know, controlled study. It just doesn't make sense to me. So it's tricky. Like, I think again, being a scientist, research is important and don't completely strip it down to have it lose all meaning. I'm like the knuckle dragger of the group.

I'm just like, whatever. At the end of the day, the reason I became involved with Jesse and Kate and Heroic Hearts is because we're worried about that at the end of the day. But we just are trying to raise money to send dudes to Peru to do something that we know works. We talk about the research and all that and like, our government sucks and FDA sucks, but we've got an answer pretty much. And that's really what I care about. And I've also had kind of a bad taste in my mouth about nonprofits, to be honest. It was a decision to do this. But I know like, okay, we raise this much cash, this many dudes

are going. And all that other stuff to me is the research and all that. It's kind of like, whatever. I know it works. We just sent how many guys and gals we just had soltara had seven and this was a international veteran crew so we had two uh special operations from canada two from the uk some pretty high-ranking guys sas dudes and then three from the us um and it was across the board, all pretty miraculous. And I hesitate to use that word, but it's always just this crazy reminder

because before going into it, you're like, no, people are going to have... It's not as much as I remember. And I'm always worried of like, oh, there's going to be some people. But when it's across the board that people are just having for the first time in 20 years, a sense of life and a sense of joy, it's, again, a pretty miraculous thing to see. Yeah.

So that's what I look at. I'm like, okay, we just changed seven people's lives, you know, and at kind of the grassroots level, I don't, I don't, again, I don't care about, I don't care if the US government ever legalizes ayahuasca. I don't, it's, it's, uh, for me, it's, it's changing one person at a time making, you know, and then, you know, they'll go out and spread the word and go from there. Um, I don't know that it's something that needs to get scaled. You know, I think it's like on the hipp and go from there. I don't know that it's something that needs to get scaled. I think it's like on the hippy-dippy side, it's like ayahuasca kind of finds you. If I hadn't eaten shit a few times in Tahoe, I would never have talked to Kate about it and

I wouldn't be sitting here. So for me, that's what it's all about. Yeah, I definitely agree. That's's sort of our processes. You know, we're not trying to create this big corporation of doing it. You know, we're always trying to improve what we're doing, especially on the integration part. Everybody's different. And how do you set them up for the most success possible? A lot of that comes into the initial vetting, the preparation, and then also the follow-up on the tail end. But at the end of the day, it takes the individual to do it. And with us being a nonprofit and trying to appeal to a lot of different demographics,

that's where we're hitting a lot of these different aspects. It's almost like an interpretation. So if you think in the scientific realm, then we have some stuff for you. If you think in more of the straightforward, like evidence-based or anecdotal-based, then, hey, look at these stories like the one you saw. Everybody relates to it differently. And even when we go to these ceremonies, that's kind of how we approach it, too. It's like, this is the traditional way that the Shipibo or that this local tribe views it. And this is what they believe is happening in terms of controlling energy and

even PTSD, they view as a fractured soul in a way, which is interesting. And if that's not, we're not trying to indoctrinate you into doing that. So if that's not what you believe, this is some sort of, this is the evidence on a scientific scale that it could be possibly working on. Everybody has their different interpretations and none is better than the others. Some people see very religious figures and if that helps them at the end of the day, as long as they're not becoming evangelists and putting down other people, you know, I have no problem. However you want to heal, that's on you. This is your world.

You have your own interpretations. Who am I to say mine's better than yours or something else? Yeah, that's an important piece that I often bring up. Forgive me for my listeners for repeating this one because I know I've said it a hundred times, but in the Matrix, after Neo sees the Oracle and he wants to tell Morpheus, I'm not the one, Morpheus looks at him and says, whatever she told you is for you and you alone. And the reason for that is sometimes we get messages that are off. They're always personal, right? Whatever your medicine is your medicine, first and foremost. But secondly, sometimes it's just what you need to hear at that time because

Neo turned out to be the one, right? But he needed to hear that at that time so he could come into his fullness. And I think of those things, you know, like, you know, with religious figures and things like that, it's not exclusive, right? And I think the more that I've done medicine, the more I've come to have experience with many different religious figures and deities and whatever you want to call them. I guess the thing is there within that, without getting too in the weeds, is just what was their medicine, you know? And if you're at the Church of Santo Daime and you have a Christian experience, non-judgment is a pretty big one, right? So just, I get a lot of quotes from the Bible on my page when I talk about some of the things that are a little against the grain from societal norms. And I think that's an important one to keep in mind. How can we be

inclusive of everyone? And I think the way you guys are approaching this is beautiful because you speak to so many different people from the lens of science and the lens of, you know, being there on the front lines from the lens of being in finance, just from every different avenue from male and female as well. And you guys, so the video I saw, the gentleman had gone down to Columbia. You guys go to some different centers. Do you have like a group of centers that you continue to work with? How does that work? Yeah, so I have a, just especially early on, we have a relationship with a couple of different retreats.

We've all vetted them. So either I or somebody else has gone to them personally and seen that they do things in the correct manner. So you mentioned Sultara. Sultara is a great one because they really focus on integration. And I know the people and I know their intentions are right.

They're not just about, you know, getting in on the money game on this sort of thing. And so it's just helped us having different spots. One, it keeps us a little independent, but two, everybody has their own unique style. And so from us as observers, it can be kind of interesting of like, oh, well, they did this approach and we're getting these more consistent results. And two, it allows us to... There's different retreats speak to different people.

And so sometimes we have this ability through like a donor. Well, like this last retreat was from an anonymous donor, very generous, was able to sponsor all seven vets. And for him, he was originally going to go. And so for him, Peru was a little bit too far. He has a family. So Costa Rica turned out to be the right one. Other people, sometimes for some reason, Colombia speaks to those people. So it just, it's as we grow and as we're understanding, and I guess also admitting

that we will never understand, it's been kind of cool working with a few different retreats and getting different perspectives instead of just getting very dogmatic about something that shouldn't be dogmatic. Yeah. Yeah. Like we only work with Shipibo or we only do it this way. Yeah. And even among the Shipibo, there's different brews and different styles and different Icaros. And that makes a lot of sense that resonates with me. You brought up Peru a number of times and of course, Sultara, which I've been to. In the video, the guy goes to Colombia and he's working with the Taitas there. They're not curanderos, they're Taitas.

And they finish with the Sonoran Desert Toad. And I was like, wow, that's super cool because I've never participated in an ayahuasca setting where that was a part of the medicine. Also has a seat at the table as one of the great teachers. And so that's incredible. Yeah, that's a pretty powerful video. And on that, we want to be respectful.

We want to be cautious too because there's on the other end, we've come across people that are just like, all right, well, let's layer on every single psychedelic possible. And we're like, oh, maybe hold off a little bit on that. Let it marinate for a little while before you jump back in. Yeah, I get that. Well, where can people find you guys? So the website is HeroicHeartsProject.org. We're on all social media.

The biggest one is Instagram. So you can just search Heroic Hearts Project on Facebook, Instagram, Twitter. And that's where people can donate to if they want to sponsor a vet, if they want to help us out. We also have a Patreon. And like Jericho said, everybody here is volunteer. Our purpose here is not to make this our career choice. It's to literally help the people we served with. So every single dollar goes directly towards enabling veterans to get to this sort of therapy. Yeah, that's huge. Jericho, when you were talking about kind of a disgruntled history with nonprofits,

that's something that really raised an eyebrow for me with my wife on a tour for the troops was not all of those are in it to give that dollar to where it's supposed to go. Yeah. Yeah, don't get me started. I'll start name dropping it. I thank you guys so much for coming on the show. I really appreciate what you guys are doing.

And again, there are options. And that's so huge to understand that. And it's really beautiful to see the work that you guys are doing in this space. So thank you all. Appreciate it. Thank you for giving us a platform. Hell yeah. Thank you guys.

Thank you guys for listening to today's show with Jesse, Kate, and Jericho from Heroic Hearts. They're doing some really special stuff in the world. Check out their link in the show notes to see where you can donate. Or if you know somebody, perhaps perhaps more importantly, or equally to that, if you know somebody who has been affected, possibly a man or a woman who's a veteran, who's definitely seen some action and could benefit from this, please don't hesitate to put them in contact with Heroic Hearts because they're doing really beautiful work in the world. Also remember to check out out kingsboo.com. We do a monthly newsletter that lets you know everything I'm reading, what I'm gleaning, the wisdom, upcoming podcast episodes, and anything I've been doing to expand

my consciousness and awareness from meditation practices to psychedelic experiences. All of that's included, everything that I'm up to in the newsletter. And we've got a $5 ebook that's available on kingsboo.com, which is basically eating with the Kingsburys. It's everything that my wife and I eat, our favorite keto desserts, the way we drink our coffee, all that good stuff is included in there for the low, low price of five bucks. Thank you guys for tuning in. We'll see you next week.