Kyle Kingsbury Podcast - #156 Dr. Craig Koniver MD

Episode Date: May 18, 2020

Dr. Craig Koniver MD is back ton the show and we focus on all things optimization. We take a deep dive into all kinds of performance enhancing drugs including TRT, peptides SARMS, NAD Ketamine and more. Connect With Dr. Koniver Website | https://www.koniverwellness.com/ Instagram | https://www.instagram.com/koniverwellness/?hl=en Twitter | https://twitter.com/FastVitaminIV Facebook | https://www.facebook.com/koniverwellness/   Check out Fast Vitamin IV | https://www.koniverwellness.com/fastvitaminiv/   Help support the podcast by visiting our sponsors: Check out the best pre during and post workout |  drinkhydrant.com/kyle and enter the promo code KYLE      Check out Dry Farm Wines and get a bottle for a penny | DryFarmWines.com/Kyle   Ancestral Supplements - Grass-Fed Colostrum  https://ancestralsupplements.com Use codeword KING10  for 10% off / Only Valid through Shopify Option   OneFarm Formally (Waayb CBD) www.onefarm.com/kyle (Get 15% off everything using code word KYLE at checkout)   Get $100 off the Chek Institute’s Holistic Lifestyle Coach Level 1 online course by using KKP100 at checkout |  https://chekinstitute.com/hlc1online/   Connect with Kyle Kingsbury on: Instagram | https://bit.ly/3asW9Vm   Subscribe to the Kyle Kingsbury Podcast Itunes | https://apple.co/2P0GEJu Stitcher | https://bit.ly/2DzUSyp Spotify | https://spoti.fi/2ybfVTY IHeartRadio | https://ihr.fm/2Ib3HCg Google Play Music | https://bit.ly/2HPdhKY    

Welcome to today's show. We have a very, very special guest today, somebody who has returned to the show, Dr. Craig Conover. Craig is known in many of the circles that I, well, I don't want to say the circles I run with and try to come off chummy, but the people that I look up to, let me put it that way. A lot of the people that I look up to from Ben Greenfield to, of course, my brother and dear friend, Aubrey Marcus. But right when I first got to Onnit about three years ago, I was talking to Aubrey about functional medicine doctors, and he brought up Dr. Craig Conover's name, and I hadn't heard of him. And he said, well, Ben's working with him and quite a few other people, and he's just dialed in. I mean, he's got a wealth of knowledge across the board. And of course,

we'll link in the show notes to our first podcast we did together. But really my focus in this one, which was recorded a few months back out in Tulum, Mexico. So you're going to hear some waves, just picture yourself with a Corona and a couple of street tacos sitting at the beach. It's hard, hard to drown those out, but you're going to hear ocean in the background and a little bit of wind, but that's how we had to do it because there's no air conditioning in Tulum. So I really wanted to take a deeper dive into all things optimization. And the conversation that I had briefly with him before was around hormone optimization, but we really take a deep dive into this. We talk about TRT, we talk about peptides and all the new cool shit

that's coming out. In addition to SARMs, which are selective androgen receptor modulators, pretty much what you would consider to be performance enhancing drugs. There's a good chunk of the conversation that's around that. And if you're not a professional athlete, this is definitely something you want to listen to. If you are a professional athlete, this is still something you want to listen to because post-career, you're going to have some bumps and bruises, some tic-tac injuries that a lot of this stuff can help you with. And he's just got a wealth of knowledge. And of course, he is one of the best in the field when it comes to working with ketamine for altered states of consciousness,

depression, anxiety, and all sorts of other ailments. So we take a deep dive into what ketamine is. And I learned a lot in this episode. He's just a fantastic human, a dear brother, and he is my family's functional medicine doctor. So I know you guys will have a lot to learn in this episode. Thank you guys for tuning in. Also check out our sponsors. These guys make the show possible. This episode is brought to you by Living Collagen by Ancestral Supplements. Ancestral Supplements makes New Zealand sourced nose to tail organ meats, bone marrow, and living collagen in simple, convenient gelatin capsules. Modern day commercial collagens are produced from hides, hooves, and horns that are otherwise inedible. As such, they are highly processed with high heat, degreasing agents, and acids,

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reason. And Dry Farm Wines is the best spot for that. You can get an extra bottle for a penny if you go to dryfarmwines.com slash Kyle. That's dryfarmwines.com slash Kyle, That's dryfarmwines.com slash Kyle, and you'll get an extra bottle with your order for one penny. Thank you guys for tuning in to today's show. Let us know what you think over at livingwiththekingsburys on Instagram or kingsboo.com. I love y'all. Chat soon. All right. We're in Tulum, Mexico with my boy, Dr. Craig Conover has returned to the show.

Thank you, Kyle. Great to be here. So good to be sitting with you. And your wife, Kelly, is sitting amongst us, listening in. Awesome. I want to dive right into the juicy stuff. I've been getting a lot of questions. I think everyone in fitness, you know, Ben Greenfield's a buddy of ours, and I think

he's one of the guys that introduced us, but he just came out with is it boundless his book yeah his book is like the fucking bible yeah it's so big huge and of course he has you know i flipped that was one of the first one like an oracle deck i just opened it up and of course it's a testosterone page and sarms pages and i was like oh cool let's talk about this because i think anybody in health and fitness eventually runs into these questions sure when do you start trt is it right for me what are the side effects all that stuff so let's dive into testosterone let's get into peptides let's get into all the good stuff yeah from um an optimization standpoint sure i mean i get the same questions.

Testosterone's, especially for men, top of the mind most of the time when you're seeing them, talking to them. What I tell people to start off with is all of us as adults, we've been dependent on testosterone since we were teenagers. So when you start to think about how you want to utilize testosterone, no, you've literally been dependent on it since puberty. So in your mind, as you shape out, okay, because the biggest concern is for people that I hear is, oh, if I start something, I'm going to have to be on it the rest of my life. And my point

is, again, don't get away from being dependent on it. It's served you really well since you were a teenager. Why would you want to take that away? And I think part of that problem is because of the bodybuilders who abuse it, use too much. And I tell people, well, if you just think of testosterone, when we're talking about testosterone, we're not fixing any problem. We're not correcting your low testosterone and changing you. We're just filling your tank back up. We've all been given one tank of testosterone. Our goal here is to fill it up. But if you stop filling up your car with gas, it won't go anywhere. Same thing. If you stop filling up the tank of testosterone, it's eventually going to go down. So testosterone is this super important hormone for men. I think

it's equally important for women. helps us with i think more to our nervous system than anything helps us feel good feel happy see the world as a bright happy place i know i've been on testosterone for about 10 years and when i've been low haven't felt good it's more mentally get cranky get you know you're just more prone to be stressed so i think it affects the nervous system in a really positive way, allows us just to feel our best selves, mostly mentally. Helps us sleep well, confidence, all these things. Obviously helps with libido, energy, lean muscle mass, all these things related to performance. But I tell guys, first, you're going to feel it in your nervous system. And the big concerns, I think, are really mitigated by just the correct monitoring,

right? So testosterone increases our red blood cell count. So our hemoglobin can increase. Testosterone can convert to estrogen. And man, we need estrogen. We just don't need a ton of it. And then testosterone, you know, those are the two big ones. And then people talk about liver function. You know, I don't think I've ever seen elevated liver function tests from testosterone. No, I mean, that's going to come with mostly with oral anabolics and a lot of these spinoffs that were invented, you know, what people would consider an anabolic steroid. And I think, you know, to your point, like anxiety, depression, a lot of these things have to do with low testosterone. I think so.

Also, not recovering, starting to feel your age. Now, there's nothing wrong with accepting your age and saying, this is a part of life and I can't run a 55K anymore. I can't do three rounds with Cain Velasquez anymore. I can't do a lot of things I used to do in my youth. But can I recover faster? Can I feel younger? Can I have some of those options to where I actually move better and enjoy my workouts more and don't get the shit beat out of me every time I try to go squat?

Right. And I think people have this notion or some people say, well, it's natural for our testosterone levels to decline. I think you could look at it that way but then you're not engaging in something that's going to help you feel your best but i also come back and say to them it's not natural the food we're eating right like we're so far removed from eating high quality food we have way more stress collectively is we have way more toxins in the environment is that? So you can't make that judgment saying it's not natural. Yeah. If you studied indigenous culture and looked at some

of these ripped ass old Aboriginal people, I guarantee that even though they'd have less testosterone than a 16 year old, they're going to be far higher than anyone in their age category from the West. Absolutely. Absolutely. So I think, you know, as a whole testosterone, super safe. I think, uh think uh again we have to monitor a few things in the blood work do that twice a year um it's really not a big deal and uh you know for both men and women women need testosterone just as much as men and most women don't make enough testosterone and then they're suffering and a lot of that's related to their mood you know there's a so many women are placed on antidepressants because they're in this

culture where they're supposed to perform their best. They don't have a shot if their testosterone is less than optimal. And talk about women because that's an interesting topic. I had Dr. Mike Hart on the show and he was saying that that's something that he sees quite a bit. Not every woman that he works with, but he definitely sees low testosterone as an issue. How does progesterone fit into the male or the female body rather as a parent hormone? And what does it do? Yeah. So, well, let me touch upon testosterone.

So most women, if we measure their blood, their total testosterone optimally should be greater than 20, really should be greater than 40. If you really get down to it. Most women are less than 20. So the trouble with women is when you give women testosterone, their skin seems to have a different rate at which it kind of absorbs or those receptors are more sensitive. So they're prone to things like acne, facial hair, which women don't want to tolerate. Most men could care less, right? If they get some bacne, they'll get through it. If they get oily skin, who cares? Women, that's a much bigger deal. So then you have to play around with the dosages to get it right so that they can use it without affecting them cosmetically. That's the challenge

with women. I see. So it's a struggle because they need it. The rest of their body needs it, but their skin doesn't allow them to take it. That's my experience. Progesterone is interesting because I think, you know, progesterone is the most important female hormone. And so progesterone, you know, just in a very traditional sense, people think of progesterone being the hormone to prepare the uterus for pregnancy, right? So progesterone is released by the ovary after ovulation, which again, the goal there is to create that most hospitable environment in the uterus if there's a pregnancy. If there's not a pregnancy, your progesterone levels fall. That triggers menstruation to do the whole cycle over again. The challenge with that,

because that's how it's classically been presented to people, is then progesterone is only needed for pregnancy. But I think of progesterone being so important because it's the hormone that allows women to feel safe, protected, grounded, just calm. So women, as they get older, most women, their progesterone starts to decline in their 30s. They don't sleep as well. They get more anxious. These things start to come unchained. That's literally because they don't have that progesterone influence on their brain and the rest of their body. It's a challenge though, because then you have to, because women cycle their hormones before menopause, giving progesterone is a little bit tricky because you have to kind of work with that cycle. And I think a lot of doctors get it wrong.

They just flood women with progesterone. Well, too much progesterone causes someone to feel really blah and get depressed. They just feel really tired. So it's tricky, but it's really crucial. It's really crucial for a female to feel safe, protected, grounded, you know? Whereas testosterone has more of that male quality of being kind of the leader. It's more of that male. Again, we both need both. It's just in different balances. Yeah. Sex drive, a lot of the leader. It's more of that male. Again, we both need both. It's just in different balances. Yeah, sex drive, a lot of these things. I'm sure people are scratching their head wondering because I've had a lot of these questions online,

especially after they did the podcast with Dr. Peter Tia, where I talked about all the anabolics that I used in college. And since I was 17 years old to play professional football. And of course I never made it there, but when I quit fighting, that's something I looked into because I heard Rogan talking about it,

you know, that it can lead to depression and traumatic brain injury can cause low testosterone as well. Oh my goodness. Now, obviously since using very extraordinary amounts of shit since I was 17 years old, my body does not create as much.

So using TRT now, it's really not about size. Obviously I've got a good physique. Most of that has to do with the amount of carbohydrates I put in my body and I can fluctuate 20 pounds, depending on what I'm eating. But I've felt that I recover much, much better. And when I gain weight, it's not, you know, and then I'm going to get into SARMs here next, I guess the segue, but even when something works for a hypertrophy in the building of muscle, I find it as a, as a two-edged sword. Now, a lot of people have different goals in fitness or physique, but as an athlete who still wants to run and do yoga and do these other things, I simply feel better when I'm closer to 225 or under. Sure. And, um, I just think that's

something to keep in mind. This isn't about, I want to get jacked and tanned. This is more about, I want to feel my fucking best, operate my best, think my best, and be able to recover from workouts so I can be a lifelong athlete. Yeah. And that goes back to the bodybuilders, I think, kind of giving it a bad rap because they've built arms, which is the size of legs. You can't even wipe their own ass. Right. That's not normal, right?

But people think of testosterone, oh, if I take testosterone, I'm going to get jacked. You can do that. I mean, that's for sure. And then you do need to cycle off because then in that scenario, you've given yourself more than one tank of testosterone. Now you've given yourself four tanks of testosterone. That's not really normal. And there's some consequences from that.

So the goal of TRT or replacement therapy is just to replace it. It's not to manipulate that hormonal access and touching upon the traumatic brain injury. Yeah. I mean, if you beat up your head and now your pituitary is not working, the whole signaling is thrown off. It's impossible. So a lot of those guys, it's not just testosterone, but then they throw in thyroid, cortisol, growth hormone, and they're screwed. Yeah. Yeah. It's a tough way out. And it's interesting to think, you know, on the topic of TBI before we jump into SARMs and the rest of these wonderful new agents that we can work with, what that global system looks like, you know, because I've had many TBIs and you talk to people and you can see,

I mean, you look at guys in the NFL with CTE, you look at Junior Seau, you look at these people, how depressing it is when you've had that and how you don't feel you have your faculties. Tate Fletcher is one of my best friends. He got a gnarly TBI and it took him six months to recover from that. You know, and I think that's something to factor into is the fact that how positive these things affect our mood, these sex hormones. Right.

And also just the loss of faculty, like what can we use to implement to bring us back to our center state? Well, and part of the problem is the conventional approach to TBI is, you know, disgusting because it's nothing. And the response by doctors is just give it time. Just wait, you don't play your sport,

but literally just wait. I've had several patients with major TBIs. We work with a lot of Navy SEALs, those type. I mean, just waiting is ridiculous. You got to act. Your brain's been jarred. You've lost function. We got to do things to bring it back. There's a lot of tools now. Obviously, NAD we'll get into later, but these hormones are super critical for that. And I think growth hormone, and I'll segue into the peptides because it's a good segue, growth hormone is really critical in that scenario because it's so rejuvenating to the pituitary and how the entire pituitary functions, not just the

growth hormone axis. And with the advent of peptides, which have become popular in the last couple of years, and so people know peptides are just chains of amino acids synthesized in the lab that allow, that do different things. And it's a growing list of things they do. The most popular is certainly the growth hormone releasing peptides, things like ipamorelin, GHRP6, GHRP2, tesamorelin, hexarelin, which really have different flavors of how they hit that growth hormone receptor to allow our own pituitary to put out growth hormones so we get the benefits. Yeah. I love that. Yeah. I remember Greenfield first starting to dive into this at the same time I was hearing it around the gym, around things like BPC-157 and TB-500. And I was like, damn, these seem really novel and really

cool. And I hadn't had an injury in a while, so I didn't see a reason to use it. And then I was, you know, working with Burdick doing sumo deadlift. And I kept, I was like, man, I'm way better at sumo than I am at conventional. Let's keep going wider. Let's keep going wider. And then I tried like a max effort triple in a stance that I hadn't used before,

too wide, pulled the adductor or abductor, whatever's on the inside of the thigh there on the right side. And I was like, I think I'm going to give BPC a shot. Thankfully with Burdick's genius was able to still train in different ways, train around it. So I was still getting stronger while I was doing that. But I mean, six weeks later, I come back to the sumo deadlift and I was stronger than I was before the injury. It was bananas. Yeah. And I think, you know, BPC is an interesting one, you know, it stands for body protection compound. And I think it really shines in the soft tissue, ligaments, tendons, muscle recovery. It's super anti-inflammatory,

great for the gut lining. I mean, you can argue probably that any athlete who's working out on a regular basis should just be on BPC. Like I think it provides a layer of protection. Again, super safe. It's awesome. But all these peptides, no side effects. We just don't see any side effects. Yeah. BPC, isn't it like similar or identical to gastric?

Yeah. Gastric juice. I don't know what you'd call that. What's the medical term? Gastric juice. Yeah. I'll stick with gastric juice. But yeah, I remember reading a study on uh

what they did was pretty fucked up but they severed the achilles or the hamstring of a rat right and then they had the test group how long they're going to heal with placebo versus how long they heal with the with the bbc and it was like six times faster and this is off the top of my head i could be completely off but it was a great deal faster in the bbc group yeah and and then they've shown also you, literally, if you combine it with PRP or even alone, you can inject that into the tendon and that's how you're going to get maximized tendon injuries, which is amazing. Amazing. So it's super, super safe. It's still not on the WADA list. So professional athletes can engage

in BPC and we have many of them on it because again, it provides this layer of protection because they're working out hard. They're straining their ligaments. People forget, you know, if you're working out and lifting weights, you're growing your muscle. If you don't take care of that tendon and that ligament,

that's where the injury happens. And people are, you know, Oh yeah. Collagen's the new craze. And for sure it is. Bone broth's amazing. Like this is shit.

Our ancestors have been using nose to tail, but there's another way that we can mimic something in nature, which is that exact amino acid structure is in nature. It's not manmade, but you take that. It's a super important point. Yeah. It's incredibly beneficial to your point that you just brought up on consistent use without injury. The first time I tried, I think it's in your performance, you're into making like combination cocktails now, AM, PM. And you sent me out some and I gave it a run and I was really training my ass off to push the limits.

And I could feel my recovery. I know you have a recovery one, but I felt my recovery in the performance blend go through the roof. And I know you have BPC-157 in that as well. Yeah, so what we found, because we've been using these peptides for a while is great by themselves, you know, super, super safe. But then if you start combining them, then you're really hitting different angles and that's where things really take off. Now the academics in this space, right? Let's be clear here. Number one, these peptides are like a supplement. They're not FDA approved. They're not a drug. So, you know, most people would say, oh, I don't want to touch it because it hasn't been approved by that, you know, governing body.

It's like a gray area maybe or something like that. You can buy them legal and have them sent to your house, but it'll say like for most sites, say like for mouth studies only or some shit. It says research use only. Yeah. Not for human consumption. And again, I get a lot of people, for most people, once they read that, they say, I'm out. I won't touch something unless it goes through all the rigors of the FDA. Well, again, like you just mentioned, these amino acid structures are found in nature.

We're just taking advantage of them. I don't want to wait for the FDA to approve something for me or my patients. FDA doesn't need to approve cannabis for me to know that it's fucking worked for thousands of years or psilocybin or any of these other compounds. Or ashwagandha. I mean, simple thing. So most people won't want to engage in peptides for that reason, but the people who do, who are excited about it, it's again, super, super safe. And then what we found is, yeah, when we combine them together, then we're really making some progress. So we've created a whole bunch of protocols, and we put the peptides together in the syringe because it makes it easy. Because if you're mixing up four or five peptides, it becomes tedious. Compliance goes way down.

People don't want to have to get to their refrigerator. Yeah, and you're using the same insulin pin, and all of a sudden you have just the most hideously dull instrument that goes in. Right. That's not fun. That's not fun. It's not fun. So we pre-fill the syringe, send it out in the packages and lots of different protocols. A lot of them have BPC and then a lot of them have some of these growth hormone releasing peptides because that creates the most, when you are able to direct, and that's what I tell people is, why do you want to leave your growth hormone pulse at random? Let's help direct it for when you go to bed, when you first wake up, when naturally it

should be its strongest push, and then you're going to get the most out of it. And so those growth hormone release peptides, again, ipamorelin, GHRP6, GHRP2, tesamorelin, they have different flavors, but they do different things to create the most anabolic potential for the cell, meaning the most healing, rejuvenating. And then BPC, don't forget, BPC has been shown to upregulate growth hormone receptors as well on the cell surface. So now synergistically, if you add a growth hormone-releasing peptide with BPC, you're truly maximizing your own growth hormone output. And that's something that's important to differentiate, even for those who are averse to the idea of being dependent upon testosterone for the rest of their lives.

When we take testosterone, it shuts down natural production. That's just the nature of the beast. But that's not the case from my understanding with growth hormone. And it's certainly not the case when you're adding in something like BPC that's going to create more receptors to take it on. Well, the challenge with growth hormone, and I think HGH has its place place the challenges is that people in general once they start on growth hormone because they like the benefits they think if a little is good a lot is great that's not the case and so you can manipulate that your own growth hormone output growth hormone is a little bit more challenging i think it's best reserve acute injury or and since the advent of theides, wait till you're 70 and 80 and truly need a true replacement where you can't make any more. Yeah. But now we have the option of these peptides.

You're going to be able to put out way more. And it's not just putting out the volume, it's directing the timing. So if you can use them when you first wake up and right before bed, you're just going to control that process much more directly. All right, Joe, I wanted to take a quick break from this podcast to tell you about a very special product called Hydrant. These guys are one of the best pre-workout, one of the best mid-workout, and one of the best post-workout supplements ever created. Top performers in business and sports often attribute their success to their morning routine, whether it's waking up early, setting their goals for the day, exercise, or meditation.

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is that right it's exactly right okay that's something that uh i first heard about um when i got out of the ufc and i actually had a couple buddies that were trying them out um and then my buddy tom lawler tested positive for Osterine, which I have tried. And I was like, there's no way this, I mean, I was telling this guy to take protein powder and shit like that years ago, creatine. He's like, I don't fuck with anything. And he really didn't. But there's no way he tested positive for that.

But all that to say. Does he have a tattoo? Yeah. So this is an interesting story. So there's been some famous athletes, a slew of them, all tested positive for Osteurine. And we think that it may be a crossover from tattooing. Wow. Yep.

That's really interesting. So there's a couple of players at Clemson a couple of years ago. Both got busted for Osteurine. Those guys swear they didn't take anything. One of the NFL players got busted for Ostrine. Those guys swear they didn't take anything. One of the NFL players got busted for Ostrine and got four-game suspension. All three of them, recent tattoos. And then your friend.

I'm not saying it's true, but it's curious. Like, these guys swear they didn't take anything. These guys are believable. And that sucks, right? Like, the whole testing thing sucks, but it sucks that they got busted on something and then lost out or were banned or whatever. But I think it's possible because it's always been Austrian. Damn. Yeah, that makes sense.

Well, let's dive into what works, what doesn't work. SARMs are a field that's relatively new as well as peptides. And just like anything in life, there's some that have a great response and a quick response and others that are a little bit more subtle. Yeah, I think of SARMs, many people like you alluded to, they're like oral anabolic steroids. What's nice about them is that they don't really ever seem to cause problems with liver function right that's the concern for any oral of these hormone or anal hormonal analogs is that they're going to mess up your liver some make your liver work harder sarms don't seem to do that i think the potential is there but they don't seem to i think and there's different flavors of sarms there's

osterine there's carterine there's anderingorine, there's RAD 140. And they, again, like peptides, do some different things. And I think SARMs can be very strong. The way I see SARMs working is, you know, if you're adding testosterone to that side, you know, that's one side of the equation. SARMs help regulate the receptor side. So you're working on both sides of the equation. Kind of like having BPC with some of the GH analogs.

Exactly. Okay. And so it's more of a equilibrium there. And so, you know, the challenge with SARMs, if there's a downside, is they can shut down your own testosterone too. They can do that potently. And so I think it's like anything, it's moderation. So I think someone who's looking to maximize the role of testosterone on the cellular level, SARMs are a useful component because they're going to help the receptor side. And if you think of a hormone, it's binding that receptor. The only way it works is if it gets in there and binds that receptor, which causes some sort of

activation within the cell. If you make that receptor more sensitive to the hormone coming in, that's how I view SARMsms that's really going to be a useful tool i think for sarms like a lot of things though you do want to cycle them you don't want to take them indefinitely and a good rule of thumb when you're trying to cycle is just do monday through friday take the weekends off so you build in some cycling there and then sarms you can stack together you know people do well with Osterine and Andrine. You can stack them together, a little bit different flavor. My experience, I think peptides are going to play out to be a little bit better of a tool, but for people who don't

want to inject something, SARMs are a really good option. Yeah. And they definitely have some different flavors from what I understand. Some can help with endurance, muscular endurance, stamina. Some are better for putting on size if you want to get training more in a jacked and tanned sort of way. And then there's one, is it MK? 677. 677 that helps with growth hormone release? Yeah, and it's really, it has to do with ghrelin. And actually, if you're looking to put on size, that's the one to take because that will increase your appetite. And so then you have to eat high quality food. But if you're looking to bulk,

yeah, that MK677 is more of a ghrelin analog, makes you hungry. And so you take it and then you're going to want to eat. So if you combine that with lifting heavy weights, you will bulk up very quickly. And that's a great tool. And then for people who kind of outside the fitness world, who are looking to put on some muscle mass, who struggle with gaining weight, that's a wonderful tool. And you shouldn't, and that touches upon with these different therapies, even anabolic steroids can be a wonderful tool if we use them at the right dosage, right? Like we don't need to go crazy with it.

But there's a niche of people who really struggle with being physically fit, right? Like hormonally, genetically, they can't put on muscle mass. They can't gain weight. Both of these tools, especially the MK677, great tool for them. Great tool for them. Yeah, that makes sense for quite a few hard gainers out there. Well, let's dive NAD. I want to kind of keep the same optimization thing going before we jump into ketamine and some of the fun stuff. So let's talk NAD therapy. This is something that I get a lot of questions on.

Obviously, we know Dr. Peter Attia's stance, and that was something I brought up on the podcast with him. And he said it's likely placebo. And I said, well, it's the best fucking placebo I've ever had then. That's the case because it's something that I feel in a number of ways, you know? And so the first time that I got to do an NAD treatment from you, it was eight days straight. And I had no knowledge of this stuff before I had heard, you know, loosely talked about, you know, with regarding fasting and different things like that, sirtuins and all that business and just didn't quite understand its potentials and really busted my ass and trained like I did when I was fighting only during that time in a way that would have run me down

and made me sick. You know, I over-trained purposefully with that. And had no issues. And at the same time, by chance or happenstance, which I'm not, I definitely don't subscribe to, but synchronistically, Bear was getting up really early, coming in, waking me up at three o'clock. We'd have an hour before we'd fall back asleep together. So my sleep was shit during the eight days. Still didn't get run down. Still had recovery through the roof.

And I was, I'm a fucking believer for life since then. And now if I'm run down, maybe I party too much at Burning Man, whatever the case is, I have this tool in the toolbox that really does work wonders for the immune system, for recovery, for how I think and feel and operate in the day, my mood, all of it. Yeah. No, it's, I mean, well, to touch upon Peter T's comment, it's placebo. Like, first of all, everything's a placebo Peter Atiyah's comment, it's placebo. Like,

first of all, everything's a placebo. Like everything we do in life is a placebo. So that's, that's not a bad thing. So there's going to be that positive aspect there, which is amazing. But NAD really is a magical nutrient. And I know there's debate and I'll go over kind of the science. I know there's debate and where Peter Atiyah gets hung up and a lot of people get hung up is they say, well, we're not convinced it gets if you give someone nad into the bloodstream that it actually makes its way into the cell and into the mitochondria and i've actually been linked up with dr nady brady who actually has done the most research out of any human on nad metabolism and we had a phone call a couple weeks ago and he told me point blank he's like that's absolutely we've already proven that we've already proven nad put in the bloodstream gets from the bloodstream to

the cell and from the cell in the mitochondria so that that theory that oh if you get injectable nad you shouldn't because it doesn't work is is wrong like it actually the science is 100 there um so nad is a b3 vitamin, actually grew up in the addiction space, was shown to turn off cravings, opiates, alcohol back in the 1930s and really astounding actually. And that's what kind of used for that. Some mental diseases like schizophrenia way back in the 1930s, disregarded for decades, revitalized actually here in Mexico, where people would come to do 10 straight days of NAD therapy, turn off their addiction, change their life. Brought to the States only in around 2008 to 2010 by a gentleman who had traveled down here, had a pain medicine

addiction, changed his life. And he basically brought NAD therapy to America. I eventually linked up with him just because of my role and experience with IVs and learning how to shape that protocol because that initial protocol that people were using and still use today, each treatment lasts six to eight hours, is gruesome, really, really uncomfortable. People can't tolerate it. So we kind of, in my office, we tested all these different protocols dosages how to use it and um it it really we found that you know getting down to uh 750 milligrams was a better dose than 3000

milligrams so we took the nad and we said we got to figure out a better way for people to do it because no one has time to do 68 hours a day on multiple days right like if you're in a detox center because you're getting off uh morphine or heroin that's a different story but for the average person we just don't have time so we we did a lot of testing and found some different dosages you know work better where people can get the you know nad in and then still have you know in a short amount of time so most people finish an hour hour and a half it is uncomfortable. I think that's a big knock to NAD, which I actually think is positive,

but I have a different view. You know, people want to minimize it. So NAD causes people to feel some chest pressure, stomach cramping, your legs will get heavy. It's like a knot right in your stomach turning slowly. It's like you've been punched and you keep getting punched. It comes in waves. And we think that's from when we give

people NAD, we increase the NAD to NADH ratio. It stimulates mitochondrial fission, which is the splitting or removal of defective mitochondrial DNA. This is actually the hallmark of it. This is bringing the quality control back. This is helping you beat cancer, beat diabetes, prevent all those things, kind of clean up your cells, bring that quality control mechanism back in place but that's a negative energetic process that's why we think it causes those symptoms when we give people nad in our office and all over the country we tell them we want you to feel this we don't want to turn that off and that goes back to the placebo because very few things i would argue nothing feels like nad and when you feel it psychologically you know something's happening right yeah and it's and it's powerful and know, something's happening, right? And it's,

and it's powerful. And again, if that's just placebo, great, that's part of it, but that's literally cleaning up your cells. And then that stimulates mitochondrial fusion, where you bring mitochondria together to make bigger, better mitochondria. And now you're able to make way more ATP. And that's, as you found, even with less sleep, you can do more, even with more stress, you can do more. You're much more resilient. And we think of people being much more efficient in everything they do. It's a powerful, powerful tool. Yeah, it really, really is incredible. And thinking about that too, I just like anything that gives options. When we're talking about opiate addiction and things like that, which is

still a crisis, just because Purdue had to pay some money up and, and admit fault in the science that they, they, uh, claimed was non-addictive with Oxycontin and they, they should have paid up still how many lives have been ruined, how many lives have been lost, how many families have been broken because of opiates. And, you know, when you think, you know, something that I mentioned as a common thread throughout this podcast is that some of the hardest things we do in life, some of the greatest challenges have the greatest reward. That's not new fucking news. I didn't just create that.

It's true through experience. We all know this. Anybody who's pushed themselves in the gym is going to experience that. If you've gotten into 35 degree water for an ice bath, the effects are immediate as opposed to hanging out in 55 degrees for 30 minutes. It's just a different ball game. Sure. And I think, you know, when you look at some of the plant medicines that really can control

addiction, like ayahuasca and iboga, they're not the fun ones either. Sure. Those are the ones that take work. So it makes sense that if we're going to administer something like NAD that has these potentials, you got to do some work here. You got to do some work. I tell people it's like cellular exercise, right? Like a lot of times you work out, you hate it, you feel bad, you're going to the

rigors, but you know, I'm doing this because this is going to help me in whatever goal you have. Same thing. You're literally working out your cells. Why wouldn't you want to work out your cells as much as possible? Yeah. Perfect sense. Yeah. Well, let's talk vitamin IV therapy, because that's another thing that you're into that we do it on it. And you have your clinic in South Carolina and then all over the place, obviously, you travel more than I do. But let's talk about some of the benefits of that, some of the cocktails that you've created because that's something that has an immediate impact as well. And the beauty of these NAD treatments is that you get that follow-up vitamin push, which is like the antidote. It's the happy ending. It's the finisher. Yeah. So, like you said, I've been involved with vitamin IV therapy for a long time, probably going on about 18 years or so now, which is longer than it's been in vogue, longer than the hangover IV. And the science is very straightforward to me,

is we only absorb nutrients at about 20% of those nutrients orally. I mean, that's an average. You'll absorb more than others some, but about 20% across the board. And when we give something intravenously, we get about 100% absorption 100% of the time. So we do a lot of testing in our office, nutrient testing. We see there's three big arenas that people are deficient in most commonly. B vitamins, things like magnesium, minerals, and then amino acids.

So when people get vitamin IVs, that's really what they should focus on. So what we did over time i did over time is uh i came up with what i call a fast vitamin iv where we concentrate these those three main categories b vitamins a lot of magnesium and amino acids into more of a push that we give over 30 to 60 seconds again concentrated meaning as little water as possible so we have those nutrients in versus a drip where we dilute the bag of water with just a few nutrients and it drips in. And so it's kind of flipping the script. And what we found is pushing it quickly leads to more robust results for most people.

You get those nutrients and you kind of have that surge of energy. Colors look brighter. You're able to language better. And it makes sense. You're just filling in the gaps that should be there already. But again, as we talked about earlier, we don't get great nutrition from our food anymore. We just can't. So these vitamin IVs can play that role. We found with the fast vitamin, we give it quickly, we get better. So we do a lot of those just by themselves. And then we combine that as part of our protocol with NAD. At the end of the NAD, NAD drips in, we push the fast vitamin, and then we get some synergy with some of those nutrients, you know, helping with the NAD. And, uh, you know, we can't do

enough of them, honestly. Well, let's, uh, that, that it's actually bringing up another point I wanted to bring up around NAD is the speed of administration. Yes. So when I, when I, uh, set the record, which hopefully won't stand the test of time for It's going to take a while. Fastest administration. 3 minutes and 46 seconds. With a bag. There was quite a few people who came out and said, you can't absorb it that quickly. You're not supposed to do it that way. And you were responding that's completely not true. We've looked into this. So let's talk about that. Most people that do this are going to take an hour to an hour and a half. That's totally fucking fine. You don't need to jump in on the pissing contest that, that I did. Right.

I tend to find the reason that I want to do it quicker is because I look at the challenge as, all right, let's do it. You know, kind of like when Perongi talks about the Buffalo medicine, they get shoulder to shoulder and go head first into the storm because that's the fastest way through it. Yep. Right. Rather than turning and try to outrun it where they'll be stuck in the storm for longer. Sure. And so with that, you know, I combine Wim Hof breathing and some other techniques to actually guide me through the pain of the NAD as I flood the system. Yeah. But touch on that, you know, the timing of administration, because it seems like, you know,

you're going to take a long time if you're doing it for opiate addiction. You're going to have a shorter time for most people if they're using your protocol, and then you're going to have an even more rapid time if you're trying to push the pace like me. Yeah. I think some of it is unknown. I think until we have the capability to say, let's give you NAD at this rate and then measure your, say, your urine NAD levels, we don't know how quickly it's metabolized. Actually, Dr. Nady Brady has done a clinical study where they've given people intravenous NAD and they've looked at the urine NAD metabolites and found for sure that urine NAD metabolites increase over time. They didn't look at the speed, but to me, it doesn't make sense that

you have to give it slower for better absorption because all you're doing is loading it into the bloodstream, right? So if you load a hundred percent in, I'm just making up number three minutes and 46 seconds versus 60 minutes, how I don't understand how one is better than the other, right? It's going to go around the bloodstream with anything. It's going to go around the bloodstream. It's going to find receptors and it'll attach at its own pace. And it'll be absorbed as it, as it needs to be. Yeah.

Right. As opposed to people saying, you know, cause I've gotten a lot of critique saying, oh no, it has to be given very, very slowly in order for it to be absorbed. And I say, that's only because that's how they started doing it. Like there's so much we do and think just because that's the way it's been done, which is total BS. Like we're always going to be questioning that. Like just because you did that for five years and you thought, okay, we only can administer it over six hours. And then someone says, no, actually it works when you administer over an hour, of course, people are going to push

back. Yeah. And I think that's, it's a good rule of thumb for eating. You know what I'm saying? Like chew your food slowly. Right. And you talk about rate of absorption there. And that really just has to do with the first part about it. Our digestive tract is our mouth. For sure.

Saliva, chewing. I get it there. It's a good point because it, right. It's a totally different thing. When you're getting it into the bloodstream, like you're there. It made it. It made it.

Whereas you, like you're saying with food, there's a process to break down the food to actually allow it to get into the bloodstream, like you're there. It made it. It made it. Whereas you're saying with food, there's a process to break down the food to actually allow it to get into the bloodstream. Very different process. Yeah. Is there anything else, performance enhancement that you're into or looking at now before we dive into some more of the consciousness pieces? Yeah. I think NAD is a big part of that. And we're still trying to understand for us, you know, what are the best protocols in terms of injectable NAD? Is that intravenous? Is that subcutaneous?

Is it sublingual? The nasal spray we're using, getting NAD into the brain and still trying to tweak that because the more we can offer people options outside of getting a rigorous IV that is able to maintain their NAD levels, obviously that's a good thing. I don't agree so much with the oral NAD precursors using NR, NMN. What are those? There's two major companies that have exploded. There's Elysium. And then there's TruNiagen.

And most of their studies are like 60 to 80-year-olds, right? Yeah, and I mean, it's being looked at. And I'm not saying there's not a role. Like NMN, people feel really good from NMN. I'm sure that's it. But to me, I'm going to stick with the source, NAD. That seems to be the most direct route. Same thing with testosterone.

If I want to increase someone's testosterone level, I'd rather you take testosterone than try all these 16 different gadgets to get there. So let's stick with the source, NAD, and then that's what we're working on, tweaking that. And I think also in the performance space is these peptides. We're really excited about novel ways that you can use these peptides to really push the limits. What I love about them is they're so safe. We don't see any side effects. And then also we're doing a lot more exosome work, stem cells, trying to figure that out, right?

Like how do you replete someone's stem cells? Exosomes seem to be a really important part of that as an anti-inflammatory and signaling molecule. And I think in the next couple of years using particularly exosomes, injectable exosomes, whether it's IV, injecting into tissue, injecting into the face, using it cosmetically, will replace PRP, number one, and be a very valuable tool in the performance space. Explain what exosomes are. It's a type of stem cell. There are different types of stem cells. They're not technically stem cells. Just think of them as vesicles.

They're acellular. So they're vesicles that carry the message. This is the way I think about them. So it's like the envelope. When you're sending a message, it's the envelope. Very, very small molecules as opposed to stem cells, so they can cross the blood-brain barrier. So you can give them intravenously, they're going to travel all over the body. What we found is when we combine them with stem cells, it makes that stem cell message work better. I think even with stem cells, the way stem cells and exosomes both work is the signaling aspect if you think them as signaling molecules they're going to

attract other anti-inflammatory molecules to come to the scene wherever that is so if you have a tbi and you want to repair that part of your brain either intranasal exosome stem cells or even intravenous gets to the tissue and signals for the anti-inflammatory molecules to heal that trauma. That's powerful stuff. Yeah. I've only done stem cells once and it was with you and we went intranasal with a fucking six inch catheter up the nose that caused the one side of my face to tear up pretty bad and the other side and had to lean back for some time. And then intravenously for systemic as well as in the knee when I had this brutal knee injury that for some time. And then intravenously for systemic as well as in the knee

when I had this brutal knee injury that took me out. And it felt like inflammation went down immediately. I could squat again, not with weight, but I could actually just do an air squat and get in a position where I was locked at like 90 degrees for a long time. And the healing was just fucking rapid. Yeah, and I think that's because of the

signaling. I think, you know, there's a lot of people getting into the stem cell space who say they worry about the numbers and the viable cells. I get all that and people can travel outside of the country and get butt loads of stem cell quantity. I don't think people need to do that because I think the hallmark is, I think there's a certain volume we need to do, but I think if we combine it right, get some NAD on board as a kind of a pre-treatment, set up the table, get the stem cells and exosomes together, the signaling that's taking place, and then throw peptides on the back end, that's what we do. You just have the most anti-inflammatory pro, you know, positive signaling going on in your body at that moment.

That's very powerful. Yeah. Maximizing recovery, maximizing healing. It's recovery. Yeah. It's the recovery. Beautiful, brother. Well, let's dive into ketamine treatment.

This is something that, you know, our buddy Gunter and Dr. Dan and yourself are working on the healing center at Akua. And it's something that you've been doing already for a long time. Yeah. And kind of where it was really ahead of the curve on, it seems that there, I mean, I guess I don't even need to dive into that yet. I'll bring that up later, but let's, let's just unpack ketamine because this is something that's been around for a long time. When I was in my twenties buying large quantities of anabolic steroids in Mexico, Paul playing football. I had the, the,

at La Veterinaria, the guy was like, you want ketamina? And I was like, what the hell is that? He's like special K. And I was like, Oh shit.

I've heard of that. I'll take that. And I played with that in various forms. I used to soak weed and smoke it. I mean, I was young and just doing stupid shit to get out of my head. It always was like a party thing. Yeah. You know, never was something I see lots of people do it in head. It always was like a party thing.

Yeah. You know, never was something, I see lots of people do it in clubs and it's like, it's cool if you're like in the right environment, set and setting. Yeah. You know, and I've certainly played with it for fun and entertainment and it's awesome because there's damn near, I mean,

I don't experience any side effects from it at all. Right. But when you use that with the right set and setting, which I had never been exposed to when I was young, I was talking to Rick Doblin about this because they got $4 million for phase three trials, a match from one guy who had made a ton of money in Bitcoin, who healed his depression with ketamine alone. And I was like, ketamine, I'm scratching my head. And he goes, I know, right? It's like, it's a different thing when you're using it for a different purpose. purpose. And I was like, okay. And then we started working with it. And I was like, holy shit, I put this in my top five medicine experiences alongside ayahuasca, psilocybin, LSD. You know, it's just, it's absolutely incredible. Yeah. Yeah.

So the background kind of means a disassociative anesthetic. What's unique about it, so they use it in anesthesia where they're doing surgery. They use it a lot in kids. And it's super, super safe because it doesn't seem to cause any respiratory depression. All the other anesthetics, there's a dose. If you get too high, it'll shut someone's breathing down. Ketamine, that doesn't seem to be the effect. So you can take someone who's having surgery and needs to be out, give them a big, big dose of ketamine, and they will, the disassociative, leave. I mean, that's, and so that leaving effect is really where the healing occurs, because we can then use them in a much, much smaller dose, and that's what we're doing when we

talk about using ketamine therapeutically, and that's why this rush and rise of ketamine in use is for depression, anxiety, PTSD, chronic pain. And what's really amazing about ketamine, I read a story, I mean, a study a while back. If we look at Prozac, for example, they compared Prozac to ketamine just on the biochemical level. Give someone Prozac, the goal there is to increase the sensitivity or how serotonin is utilized in the body. It takes about three weeks biochemically. Ketamine, it's instant. It's instant. So you're making better use of the neurochemicals in your body.

And so for most people using ketamine, there's a euphoria, there's a peace, there's a calming to them. And we think of it like truth serum. It brings your walls down so you're able to just speak from your heart. And that is amazing because, you know, historically, we've only been able to use natural compound plants to do that. Now, using something like ketamine, which is so safe, just opens up the door for the people to be able to touch it and, you know, really be healed by it. So in our office for selective patients, we'll do intramuscular ketamine. That process lasts about 30 minutes.

It's a healing type of modality. People put an eye mask on, put some music on, let them have that introspective kind of time where, again, classically they're going to separate, be able to see. It's all about changing perspective. See a different perspective, gain some insights, come out of that, feel much lighter. And for many people, like you said, it's as profound as a medicine journey as other things. And they're blown away by like, what is going on here? It's just, I think it's allowing your

own neurochemistry to work so much better for you. Quiet the higher processing centers of your brain and allow you to change perspective. Yeah, you're using, for people that are just listening to this, your hand gesture is so spot on. It's one hand on top of the other, pulling upward away from it, right, as you leave the body. And if anybody's ever read A New Earth by Eckhart Tolle, the idea in meditation you even just in contemplation is to become the witness the observer of your thoughts to realize you're not your thoughts and if you don't or your emotions for that matter and if you don't just cling to every thought that

fucking runs by you can actually just say am I the thought or am I the witness that has thoughts passing through yeah and what Ram Dass says like says, that's going from the mind and intellect into the soul level where you then witness those things. And then you move from the soul to the God level where you're not even witnessing, you just are. Sure.

It's like one step higher, but those layers you can experience very quickly for yourself in a ketamine experience. Very quickly. And people, I was talking to people during these workshops here in tulum and some people bringing up some things you know i'm working on stuff with the counselor i've been talking talk therapy which can all be very useful

but something like ketamine allows you to make that shift again almost instantaneously and so it gives you a very safe container to then proceed in the work to unpack, like you're saying, in a way that's almost, it's very light. Kind of means very light. It's usually not very heavy for people. Very, very safe. Yeah. Yeah. That's a beautiful point. And none of these things, whether it's ayahuasca or psilocybin or MDMA, none of these fixes you. Right. Right. But they give you, they grant you the space to witness things and understand it with new eyes, new perspective. And from there, you can do the work to continue to unpack that. And I think that's why,

you know, the tandem of therapies and things like that with a traditional psychologist work even better when you're actually able to draw back from that. And you're not caught up in the discussion of it because the discussion of it is still in the mind and the intellect. You haven't made it past that point yet. You can't see with the eagle eye to use Native American wisdom where you look down with greater wisdom and greater perspective of all the things that are happening in your life with a greater vision. Right. And ketamine is not for everyone. It's worth pointing out. Some people, well, anyone who's not ready, who's not at that point where they're willing to want

to venture into that space, it's just your wrong time. It doesn't mean it won't ever be. But sometimes people feel, because we talk to people at the office, they're like, well, I think I should try it. Well, maybe. I mean, if you're ready. Timing really, really matters with all of these therapies. You know, I think some people even with NAD, they say, oh, I'm going to cure my addiction with a couple NAD treatments. If you're not ready, it's useless. Same thing with ketamine. Like it's there as a tool, but it's there when you're ready.

I love it, brother. Yeah. What else are you looking into in terms of ketamine administration, different forms? Yeah, we'd like, you know, so obviously you can do it. Most people are doing it intravenously around the country. We never got into the intravenous aspect. It's just a little bit different flavor. We'd like the intramuscular where you really kind of have a burst of it.

It's 30 minutes. Sometimes people, if they're good good candidates will do a couple dosages which will take you even deeper and then you know we make up a nasal spray we combine that with oxytocin we like the synergy there so people who are again good candidates can use that at home it's very relaxing kind of gets you out of your headspace pretty quickly and allows you to feel more at peace allow again i think of it pretty quickly and allows you to feel more at peace allow again i think of it like truth serum allows you just to speak from your heart you make some really good insights uh so nasal spray is a good option you can make it into a trochee kind

of a hard candy um people do that great with other modalities like float tanks um infrared sauna things like that where you're just, again, different energy systems coming into play. You can do a rapid dissolve tab now. So there's a lot of utilization of ketamine. And as you pointed out earlier, you really don't have any side effects from it. There's no like hangover, lingering effects. You know, a question I get is, is it, you know, addictive? Well, any substance, right? Any substance will be addictive if it's in that setup. And identifying who has an addictive personality is probably a better question to ask because certain people shouldn't be taking these things.

They just can't. But for most of us, super, super safe and a super valuable tool. Yeah. And that's a question I get. We run into a lot of people in recovery, Alcoholics Anonymous, things like that. And there's benefits to that. I think Russell Brand uses the 12-step model beautifully. It's like an archetypical way, a lens to view the world in any situation. Most of the people that I've come across in there feel, I guess, broken or powerless is the word that they use, but to a certain degree.

And certainly there are compounds that they would be better suited for, but with something like ayahuasca, as Dr. Gabramonte points out, you're not going to get addicted to that. You taste too foul. You're not going to get addicted to La Perga, puking, shitting, and that might be a better avenue if and when they are ready. Whereas ketamine might be something that they learn to rely on too much like a crutch with other things in life. But through something like ayahuasca and actually unpacking their addiction and healing trauma, then something like ketamine could come onto the table because they'd have a better constitution of what they're going to put in their body and why.

Yep. And I think, again, nothing's off limits for the right person at the right time i agree i think everyone i'm a firm believer everyone should have every option available because there's way too many good options and unfortunately though most people don't know about them most people think you know they've been told this is bad for you or this is dangerous so much false information so i'm a big believer everyone should have every option like you said the right time yeah you know lay it out there and kind of pick and choose and that's how we make progress is trial and error we have to be our own self-experiment awesome brother yeah well

it's been fantastic sharing this weekend here with you it's been wonderful to catch up with you and spend time with you yeah yeah we i think the world of you you you bring so much passion and authenticity to the work you do and you're really a role model for so many of us look up to you. Thank you so much, brother. I love you, Dr. K. Love you, buddy. Where can people find you and start if they're curious to get into work with you? They can go to our website, which is conoverwellness.com or look us up on Instagram at conoverwellness.

And we're always kind of tinkering with the website to make it more accessible and easy, but it should be pretty straightforward how to get in touch with us, ask us questions, work with us. We work with people all over the country in different realms in terms of overseeing blood work, different therapies in terms of peptides, IVs, hormones, you name it. There's lots of options. We have people come to our office every week from out of town who want to do these different therapies with us. And we're just knee deep and trying to innovate and do the best job we can. Beautiful brother. Well, I feel blessed to know you and to have a team member like yourself that's always on the cutting edge. Thanks for coming on

brother. Thank you so much. Thank you guys for tuning into today's show with my man, Dr. Craig Conover. We've linked to his websites. I'm sure you have many questions, so you can hit him up over there in his contact forms. And be sure to let me know what you think of this one at livingwiththekingsburys on Instagram and kingsboo.com for more contact between one another. Love you guys, and I'll see you in a week.