Kyle Kingsbury Podcast - #2 Wired to Eat with Robb Wolf

Episode Date: October 9, 2017

Robb Wolf is the author of The Paleo Solution and Wired to Eat. He is host of The Paleo Solution Podcast as well as a speaker at Paleo F/X. Connect with Kyle on Twitter and on Instagram Connect with Robb Wolf on Twitter and on Instagram Onnit.com           Onnit Twitter         Onnit Instagram  

Thank you guys for tuning in to the On It podcast. This is episode number two with a very special guest, Rob Wolf. Rob is the host of the Paleo Solution podcast, which is an excellent source of information on all things health. He's also the author of The Paleo Solution, which was a game changer, really talked about some of the nuances of paleo and really having not a dogmatic approach to that lifestyle and ancestral eating. He's a speaker at Paleo FX each

year, which will be turning into Health FX next year. But, you know, the main reason we had him on was to talk about his latest book, Wired to Eat, which is an absolute game changer. He dives into the differences between diet. I mean, really, there is no one correct diet out there and there's no one size fits all diet. And Rob really breaks that down. We generally know that processed foods are going to be crappy for us and make us feel like shit and add to our weight, those kinds of things. But, you know, the concept of good carbs and bad carbs is really illustrated differently in this podcast and in Wired to Eat because white rice is fine for his wife, but for him, it makes him look like a diabetic.

He can eat a banana and it's going to raise his blood sugar. But if his wife eats a banana, she looks like she's diabetic. So there's a number of ways that we can go about fine tuning what, you know, are our problematic foods and what are really healthy foods that are going to help us lower our systemic inflammation and really make us feel good, give us sustained energy and not leave us searching for carbohydrates two to three hours after we eat. Every time we eat, that's no way to live. We don't want to live like that. We don't want to eat like that. So to get the most out of your food

and what you're putting in your body, you got to do a little homework. You got to do a little personal introspection and dig into this stuff. And I think this podcast is a great place to start, but definitely buy yourself a copy of Wired to Eat and dive in a little further. Thanks for listening, guys. All right. Today's guest is Mr. Rob Wolf. Rob, how are you doing, brother? Great, man. Thank you so much for having me on the show. Usually, wherever I show up, property values plummet, so hopefully this isn't the end of your career. Yeah. I love the fact that you're not afraid to take yourself down. The six listeners couldn't be wrong on the Paleo Solution podcast is pretty phenomenal.

I think I'm doing close to those numbers right now. Nice, nice. You'll be a breakout success and be at 10 by next week. It's a massive start, yeah. Well, I got you on here. I want to talk about, I mean, shit, I had the same issue with Ben Greenfield. What do you talk about with the guy that's talked about everything before? So I do want to, if we can, just kind of jump right in.

And I'll tell the listeners, if you want a detailed bio on Rob Wolf, where he's been, how he came to be the man that he is today, please check him out on the Joe Rogan Experience. They have a three-hour format there. So they have a chance to dive in a little bit more. I've got Rob for an hour today. So I want to cut right to the nitty gritty. Your most recent book, Wired to Eat, is absolutely fucking phenomenal. Oh, thanks, man. Thank you. I absolutely loved it. I loved the, a few of the concepts that you went into specifically the, it's not your fault, you know, and, and right when I was listening to the, to the audible version of it, I cracked up because I had this image of, uh,

of Robin Williams, hugging Matt Damon and Goodwill hunting, telling him it's not your fault. It's not your fault. Well, Matt Damon sobbing on his shoulder. You know, it's, it's funny that it was, um, it was that very, it's kind of cool that you, you, uh, you saw that too, but that was actually kind of the inspiration for that, that whole sentiment. And it's kind of crazy, but it was derived out of this very technical, uh, evolutionary biology paper on the determinants of human brain evolution of all things. But this paper was kind of crazy in that it got into like the neuroregulation of appetite, optimum forging strategy, thermodynamics, you know, basically organisms need to get more energy out of their environment than what they burn getting it or

they're going to die, you know, basically. So it was a really long haired, deep dive in evolutionary biology, neuro regulation of appetite. But then it had this really interesting, like empathic piece to it in which, you know, made this really powerful case that if you if you buy into this evolutionary biology idea and you know, that our genetics are set for a life way that's very, very different than the one that we live in, you really can't blame anybody for the situation that we're in. And that said, I'm not in the fat acceptance scene.

You know, we definitely need to do something, but just berating people and expecting them to do something that's actually different than their fundamental biology is kind of ridiculous. So I'm really tickled that you saw that imagery in that. Hell yeah. Well, I mean, you know, just based on the title, Wired to Eat, and I've definitely tried, you know, I've been a fan of the ancestral health movement. Not necessarily, you know, obviously a lot of people have the issue with calling it paleo and what did cavemen actually eat and all that bullshit. But I think

if you steer around that and you try to think about how we lived pre-modern society, before refrigeration, before the ability to have all foods year-round and everything that we have at our access right now with grocery stores and whatnot, you really do start to see a different picture of how people ate and what that model kind of looks like. And for me, I didn't really think diet had much to do with stuff when I was in college and trying to gain weight for football, shoveling down McDonald's three days a week and doing whatever I could to gain weight. But I had a strength coach let me know, hey, man, I think you have some type of food intolerance. And so for 30 days, I did your exact protocol, a 30-day reset, eliminated all grains and dairy.

And when I added back dairy in, it wasn't too big of an issue. I got a little snotty, so obviously there was some issue there. But when I added the gluten back in, it blew my mind. I couldn't breathe out of my nose. I was farting like a madman and just had all kinds of bloating, felt terrible. And I never would have known that had I not done that. You know, and a lot of these tests that people take, they're hit and miss. You know, some of them are only testing for certain things and it's not always going to tell you, but if you take the 30 days to do the reset and you come back with one of these food products that you may not be able to

absorb properly, it's pretty clear the feeling you have. Right, right. It is. And you know, the food allergy testing and the food sensitivity testing is interesting, but I've found it clinically. I'm on the board of directors of a medical clinic here in Reno, Nevada. And man, we've played with that stuff. And occasionally it's helpful, but I've found it to be as confusing as, you know, as it is helpful. So it's kind of a coin toss. But, you know, the crazy used car salesman pitch is try this stuff for 30 days, you know,

pull out these foods, run for 30 days, maybe do some blood work before, do some blood work afterwards, clearly pay attention to how you look, feel and perform, and then reintroduce these things and see how you do. And if it's no issue for you, then great, keep doing what you're doing. But, you know, for so many people, they discover like gluten or dairy, some people it's corn or soy end up being a pretty big deal. And they had never known that because they had rarely gone hours to say nothing of days their whole life without consuming these foods. So they never really their baseline was always in this kind of inflamed, somewhat sick state. And they never got down to that baseline of pulling out this irritant and really getting to a more optimized health. But again, that's my

greasy used car salesman pitch is give it a shot and see what happens. Yeah. I like the analogy that if you had a 75 pound weight vest on your entire life, you might not know it was there. And if you took it off for a month and put it back on, you definitely feel that 75 pounds again. Right. And that's pretty much, you know, that was, that was definitely in the case for me. So one of the concepts that you get into is, and it's, and it's obviously a big one is the no, there is no one size fits all approach to the diet. And that can be applied to paleo and ancestral health that can be applied to anything in life but uh one of the ways that you help people dive into this specifically without having expensive genetic testing or i guess it's cheaper now but uh without really having to have other

people break it down for you and dive into that it's a seven-day carb test. Yeah. You know, I really, and this is a, it's interesting because, you know, on the one hand, you want to keep things as simple as possible for folks. Like, you know, there are a lot of, and God bless all these people that don't spend all day on the internet, you know, um, debating macronutrients and gluten intolerance and all this stuff, you know, they just live their lives and that's what they should be doing. But if they find that they're having some health problems or they want to bump their performance up or what have you, then you need to start paying attention and kind of do some quantification of what you're doing.

But then you need some sort of a plan. You know, it's like we're going to try this and then we'll see how it goes. And then we'll, we'll alter course from there. So on the one hand, you want a simple enough protocol, a simple enough program that it doesn't blow people out of the water. But if you imagine kind of like a bell curve type type graph, whether you're recommending paleo or vegan or low carb or high carb within that bell curve, there's going to be a certain slice of people that that basic recommendation fits perfectly. And you're going to look like a genius among that cross section of people. And then as you start migrating further and further away from that, that slice, the, the, the basic recommendations work for, it's going to work less and less and

less because we needed to get more granular. We needed to get more specific for these other people. But then if you come right in and you, you waylay people with this, this idea that, oh man, it's all super individualized and we're going to have to get really nitty gritty to find out what you need. Then people are like, forget it, man. I'm just going to keep doing what I'm doing, you know? So, so I try to strike a balance with that where we start off, you know, I think you could make a pretty good case that starting with whole unprocessed foods, trying to sleep more and better, getting the appropriate dose of exercise, having solid community. Those are pretty irrefutable things. Like, I don't think you'll get too many people up in arms over that basic recommendation.

And then from there, usually one of the most important levers that we have to tweak with most folks is the amount of carbohydrate in the diet that they will run optimally on. Like I tend to do better at a bit of the lower carb side of things. I tinker with some old guy, Brazilian jujitsu. And although I feel really good in ketosis, I just get blown out doing ketosis and, and grappling. So I run about a hundred, 150 grams of carbs on training days. And I feel great with that. I have good recovery.

I don't have sleep problems, but I was able to discover a lot of this using this seven day carb test, which is basically, uh, you, you pick a battery of your, your favorite, or at least the, some carbs that you're interested in. It could be like corn tortillas or applesauce or, you know, what have you. And you do this thing first thing in the morning. You wake up, drink some water. Ideally, you eat this 50 grams of carbohydrate, effective carbohydrate. Two hours afterwards, we test your blood glucose. And if the blood glucose is much

above about 115 nanograms per deciliter, then we're starting to wonder if maybe that's a good fit for you. And we could ask some questions. Is this even an appropriate food for you at all? Or if you really, really like this particular food, could we maybe cut the portion size in half? Could we do this post-workout? Could we do. My wife and I did a number of kind of little micro N equal one experiments where I tested a bunch of these foods and I looked pretty shitty across the board. Like I just didn't respond all that well. And then my wife, man, she, you know, like my blood glucose response to white rice, I think it got up in the 180s or the 190s, which is almost diabetic. And I mean, this is a 50 gram serving of rice is not a lot. And my wife did that. And I don't think she went above 120 on that.

And and and she's smaller than I am. She's 35, 40 pounds smaller than I am. She's 35, 40 pounds smaller than I am. So just from a dilution factor, you could expect that she would do poorly. You know, like if she had eaten a similar amount based off of body size, she would have probably been like 100 or 105 as the total response. So yeah, that seven-day carb test is pretty cool. I was really pretty happy with that. We had fiddled with it in the clinic, um, in a way to help people get more granular about what things they respond favorably to and unfavorably. And this was really driven by some research that came out of the Weitzman Institute in Israel, where they did a really cool study. And we could do a deep dive on it later if you want to. But the big picture on it

is that they did a full genetic analysis on folks, 800 people, a gut microbiome analysis, some health questionnaire history type stuff. And then they started feeding these people different meals while they were wearing a continuous blood glucose monitor. So they were able to see literally second by second what their blood glucose response was. And what was interesting is that people responded wildly differently to different foods. Some people would eat rice and it was like they drank water, like their blood glucose barely went up. Other people ate things like hummus, which even though I'm like the paleo guy and you know, hummus has some beans in it. I mean, I'm like, dude, hummus is like protein and fat. You shouldn't, you shouldn't get hardly any of a blood glucose response off that. And interestingly, about 50% of the people that they tested, uh, had a pretty negative blood glucose response. And so it really, um,

called into question just this, this broad recommendation that know, that you can make a broad recommendation. You know, there's some huge granularity elements to this whole thing that are important if we really want to address each person's needs. 100%. Well, let's talk a little bit about, well, before we, I would definitely want to jump around here a little bit because there's a lot to ask you. You mentioned genetic testing in the test they were doing. You know, my wife and I had done 23andMe and I found it nice, you know, in terms of seeing what my ancestral background was and being less German than I thought I was and being more, you know, from the UK, that kind of thing. But I mean, outside that, in terms of,

you know, which diseases I'm likely to manifest and all that, it just didn't tell a lot. And I remember you speaking about the fact that the FDA kind of cracked down on them not long after they had really opened up shop and started telling people like, hey, you got to watch out for this. They said, oh, well, you can't do that. And so it more or less muzzled them. And we've seen other companies like DNA Fit and Promethease. And, you know, Dr. Rhonda Patrick just did a small sample of things that she thinks are important on Found My Fitness. But what are the ways we break this down into actually usable information?

Oh, man, it's still really early. And, you know, it's funny just to wave some of my market-driven kind of libertarian tendencies. The whole FDA crackdown was somewhat funny in a way in that what they what they effectively did is they forced 23andMe to no longer be able to give you some of these um uh predictive um stories about like well what's your Parkinson's or Alzheimer's potential and stuff like that based off of a genetic potential but then what happened they they were okay with you having raw data about your genes. And so then what happened is a whole cottage industry of second party interpretation outlets like Promethease popped up. And so now you just run it through 23andMe and then pump it through Promethease. You know, it's just it's just funny whenever you try to reef down on something or do some sort of prohibition on something. The market always figures out a really slick, elegant way of dealing with all that. But all of that said, it's, in my opinion, a really, really complex topic right now and not much is well understood. I have a good friend of mine, Ryan Fritzinger, which you would probably love getting this guy on your podcast.

I just listened to his episode. It was phenomenal. So, yeah, if you're listening to this and you like what you're hearing, he seems like he's the genetic testing master and he knows quite a bit more. Yeah, that's my sense. And, you know, Chris Kresser ended up bringing him into the Kresser Institute as part of his education development. And Chris is about 15 times smarter than I am not to say that I'm the least bit smart, but it's he's way smarter than I am. And he was like, Oh man, Ryan, Ryan is legit. But you know, we have these you have the genetic side of this story. Then we have the gut microbiome side of

this story, just as in there's other microbiome, our skin and, you know, oral cavity and all that. But, you know, the gut microbiome is a, as a baseline in this interface between the gut microbiome and our genetics is huge. And what's fascinating is the gut microbiome changes constantly. And we still don't really know why. We don't know with what rapidity it changes. And depending on the changes on the gut side, that's going to dramatically influence your epigenetics, the way that your genes are expressed.

And this is independent of the food you're eating, the sleep you have, the exercise you're doing. And so it gets quite complex rather quickly. And, you know, like, uh, some, quite a few people of Northern European descent end up having some of these, uh, MTFR, uh, uh, gene polymorphisms that relates to alterations and methylation pathways. Basically methylation is a way of turning genes on or off. And, you know, the initial thought with people with these kind of methylation SN vitamins, which is largely what is flowing through this, this, these metabolic pathways. And this will address the underlying issue. And lo and behold, some people did well with that.

Some people did horribly worse, you know, with regards to like cognitive function and digestion, whatnot. And so shocker, you know, the, the story is much more complex than what we initially thought. And then we started looking more upstream at things like choline and even, uh, uh, creatine as being adjuncts that we could use to prop up this, this methylation pathway. So it, I am by no means an expert in that. And I'm actually working with Ryan right now. He's helping me on my own nutrition. And some of the interesting things that we've fiddled with in that regard is I've dropped my protein a little bit. I wasn't eating a huge amount of protein, but I've dropped the protein a little bit more in like the 80 to 90 grams a day range. That's blasphemy, Rob.

I know. I know. And I'm still high fat, moderate carb at best, you know, about 100 to 150 grams of fat. And then I've been breaking my meals. I'm doing a little bit of intermittent fasting. So my dinner is around 4.30 or 5 p.m. I don't really eat again until 8 or 9 a.m. I have a huge breakfast. I mean, it may be 15 to 1800 calories. And then I typically do jujitsu. I've been on a pretty good tack where I've been training about five days a week and I tend to train around 11, depending on the day, 11 a.m., noon or 1 p.m. for jujitsu. And I actually fast after that until my dinner time. And I've been feeling really, really good with that. Now, the one challenge that I've had is it makes these meals pretty big. And so, you know, on a more active day, if I'm doing two hours of jujitsu, even at kind of a moderate drilling pace, that can represent like 12 to 1500 calories of activity burn alone to say nothing of my base basal metabolic rate, which is like 22, 2500 calories. And so trying to get 36, 3700 calories in two meals

in its whole unprocessed food like that can be a challenge. And so some days if I like I did a pretty good burner yesterday and I actually did some lunch afterwards. I went out to Vietnamese, Vietnamese food, got a bowl of pho. I did double meat, half the noodles. And, um, and it felt really good. Like my recovery feels good today. And then I had my, my regular dinner in the evening. So, you know, Ryan's been working me towards a compressed feeding window, decreasing the,

um, the protein a little bit. And the reason for that, I had kind of forgotten why he had recommended that. Based off of some of my genetic polymorphisms, he's suspecting that I perhaps have some ammonia clearance deficiencies based off these genes. And so when we degrade protein in our bodies, ammonia is one of the kind of metabolic byproducts. And then this can get excreted directly. It can get transformed into uric acid. But in some individuals, they don't clear urea or ammonia particularly well. And if you get a buildup of these metabolic byproducts, it can really make you fatigued,

tired, mental lethargy, physical performance decline. And it's interesting as I've kind of dialed the protein down a little bit. And again, I was maybe running like 120, 130 grams of protein. Like it wasn't a huge amount, but I dropped it to that 80 to 90 range. And I feel better. I've got to say, I feel better. My digestion's been better. Some days when I do these really huge two meals, I'm kind of like the next day, my digestion feels a little bogged down and I've had some digestive deficiency in the past. So I'm going to play with that. And, and, uh, I could still do a compressed feeding window where I'm eating from like eight or 9am until four or 5pm,

but there might be two or three meals mixed into that. And I'm just kind of playing around with that stuff. Yeah, there's a lot to play with. I remember when you guys were talking about that kind of, you know, when is the best time? And Dr. Rhonda Patrick talks about having her feeding window early. I've always felt like I don't sleep well if I'm on an empty stomach. And if I have that large meal for breakfast, even if it's lower carb, there's still some like bogging down mentally for me from a personal standpoint. And if I'm able to wait until noon and have the first meal be a moderate sized meal and then a large dinner at night, I'm usually fairly good. Plus, the other

thing I wanted to mention was how is it that you go train jujitsu on, you know, this giant first breakfast that you have? It is about four hours later. Okay. And, and, but if I, if my timing is off a little bit and the breakfast gets pushed forward, you know, later, I'm not, I'm not going real hard that day. I'm just, I'm a, I'm playing a very conservative, not, not high metabolic output day. And I'm really hoping I'm not mashed inside control the whole time. So yeah. Yeah. But it generally, I, it seems to work a pretty, pretty well as far as that goes. Like so long as I get at least three to four hours between breakfast and then the first training session, I seem to be fine. That makes a lot of sense. Let's, let's jump back into this microbiome discussion. I got a chance, you know, I've been working with Dr. Grace Liu

from the Gut Institute. I had a bad episode of candida and parasites, and we were able to knock that out. It took about a year to get over. You know, I went from training twice a day to training twice a week and would still get the common cold just because my immune system was under such stress. But I met Dr. Mike Ruscio, who you recently had on at Paleo FX, and he had some interesting things to talk about. And one of them is that, you know, everyone pushing for this, this, you know, golden gem of a probiotic, it just doesn't exist. And the concept that we all need to feed our bacteria. Can you dive into that? Cause you know, there's quite a, quite a few people that don't do well with prebiotic fiber.

Oh man. You know, it's funny because each one of these, so when we first discovered when Watson and Crick discovered like the double helix, like we knew about genetics to some degree, but Watson and Crick in the either late 50s or mid 60s discovered the structure of the double helix. And there was this thought that, man, when we understand the human genome, we're going to have it all solved. Like, you know, and there was the human genome project and then we sequenced the whole human genome. And it really hasn't done anything to affect 99.9% of diseases, you know, and that's because we have epigenetic features. So it doesn't matter so much for most things what genes you have. What matters is how they're turned on or off and in relative ratios to everything else. And then we get into this gut microbiome story. And, you know, we looked at some pre-industrial societies like the Hadza, these hunter gatherers, and they had a stunningly diverse microbiota and they had all these critters that we don't

find in westernized societies. But then we looked at some pastoralists who eat a lot of dairy and they eat a lot of meat. They're still pre-Westernized, so they're not exposed to antibiotics in general and, you know, like chlorinated water and everything. They're really, really healthy, but they have a completely different gut microbiota than what the Hadza do. And then we looked at some of these, you know, remote mountain populations like in Switzerland and some of the Basque regions where they live in, you know, developed westernized countries. But they're still living a largely agrarian or pastoralist life. And their gut microbiota is totally different, but they're very, very healthy.

So there's been this thought, like you said, that there was going to be like a one microbiome to rule them all. And, you know, the, what I've seen clinically is any given probiotic, about 50% of people might do well with it. 50% of people might do worse, or maybe there's some breakdown where some people are unchanged, worse, better, you know, and that oftentimes starts looking like placebo, like placebo is about 33%. And so it's, um, it's interesting. And, you know, we do one of the really controversial topics and I, I don't even remotely claim to understand this, but I'll try to lay out my, I don't understand what we should do about it. I'll try to articulate what my understanding of the situation is. We have a lot of people in westernized countries that clearly have altered gut health. They have intestinal permeability. They have growth of

bacteria in the small intestine, which we shouldn't really have bacteria there. We should have bacteria mainly in the large intestine and colon, but they have this condition called small intestinal bacterial overgrowth. And it's a devilish thing to deal with. And then like with both Grace and Dr. Ruscio, we are now discovering that there's small intestinal fungal overgrowth also. And this is a whole other layer to this thing. But a lot of people who have this SIBO, the small intestinal bacterial overgrowth scenario, the only thing that helps them is a low carb diet, possibly like a ketogenic diet, very, very little fermentable carbohydrate.

Or if it is fermentable, it's in the form of like green vegetables, not even carrots or beets really benefiting them. Like they noticed some, some GI problems. Uh, there are other, uh, fermentable carbohydrates called FODMAPs, um, onions and garlic and all these things that are generally really associated with health. These things can just tear people up. And so, you know, this is where, um where if you get a well-trained, savvy practitioner, a clinician, he or she will be able to do a decent job, hopefully, of kind of interpreting where you are in this kind of gut microbiota story and intestinal permeability. And then it just see what happens. or anti-parasitic things like flagyl mitranidazole. And then we just see what happens. And then ideally, I do think that we would like to see people

able to eat as broad and varied a diet as possible. But where I am with this now is that I would opt more for a lack of general flatulence and gut distention and gas and neurological symptoms. If we're adding something in, say like garlic, is a trigger for a lot of people. Even though we know that garlic has these great immune modulating effects and it's an antioxidant, all that stuff is great. But if it keeps you awake at night because you get a sympathetic nervous system response because of kind of an immunogenic reactivity, it hits your immune system and it puts it into high alert. That's not a win. Like the antioxidants aren't worth that impact on your recovery. And if people track heart rate variability, they'll see the heart rate variability usually trend down in

those situations. So, you know, what I tend to default to is what do we need to do to get the very best digestion possible? You got these nice, well-formed poops. You're not super gassy. You don't get neurological symptoms between or with meals. You could go six, eight, 10 hours between meals without being crippled. That's a pretty good baseline to say, okay, yeah, we're, we're working well. And then we can kind of chip away at the outer edges of that and try introducing a little bit of this, a little bit of that. Like I'll do a little corn. I'll do a little bit of, of, uh, well-prepared beans. If the beans have been soaked and sprouted and, uh, uh, cooked well, I find that I do better with lentils than really any other type of beans. So I'll

throw those in the, in the mix every once in a while. But, uh, I find that green bananas and plantains and taro root, I do really, really well with as kind of my, my starchier, um, carbohydrate sources, uh, white potatoes, not quite as well. White rice makes me feel like I'm, I'm diabetic and I have like vision changes and, and, uh, I get kind of rebound hypoglycemia. So I may actually have maybe a rice intolerance in addition to the carbohydrate load. But, uh, I know that that's kind of all over the map there. But yeah, I mean, unpacking that gut microbiome is really challenging. And I think that it's going to be several years before we really get to a spot where we understand this well.

And I do have some very good friends, Dr. Tommy Woods and then Christopher Kelly, who run a fantastic program called Nourish, Balance, Thrive. They have an outstanding podcast as well. And Christopher has a background in computer engineering, and they've been applying some machine learning algorithms to be able to take all of this data that we can collect and crunch it. It's just so many data points that it's kind of beyond what humans can do to find the connections in this story.

And I do think that down the road, we'll be able to do some gut microbiome testing, some genetic testing, some basic anthropometry like hip to waist ratio, how you feel between meals, what your sleep is like, some HRV data. And we plug all that in. And then I do think that we'll start getting some really good, consistent, uh, predictive recommendations as far as diet and, uh, uh, you know, maybe some supplementation like various types of, uh, uh, probiotics, but we're, we're in good ways off of that. So we just kind of have, have to hash it out the best we can for now. Yeah, most definitely.

I did listen. I've been a guest on Nourish Balance Thrive with Chris Kelly, and he's a phenomenal guy. And I listened to his podcast with you recently, and I was like, oh man, you guys got links in the show notes. Let me check out this seven minute machine learning thing that they've developed. And it blew my mind how accurate it was. It lists five, what they determined. I think Dr. Tommy Wood determined the five biggest predictors of problematic health. And so it put them in order of what my biggest priorities were. And sure enough, at the top was blood sugar. It blew my mind because as I was getting ready to have you on the show, I started doing some blood sugar readings and things.

And I had had hemoglobin A1c check before and it was 5.1. So not phenomenal, but definitely not a worry. And I kept seeing that my fasting blood glucose was in the 120s every single day. And even on days where I'd go low carb. And so I had, I had done, um, Rhonda Patrick, I think has like, you know, in her, you do the 23 and me and you can send it over to her. And for a $10 donation, she'll send some markers on key things that she thinks are important. And she'll really break down kind of what it means. But I had a polymorphism that showed I didn't do well with saturated fat. And that could lead to higher fasting blood glucose and higher insulin resistance.

And that fucking made my head spin because I was like, shit, the whole time I was in ketosis, I was just mowing down grass fed butter and, and, you know, raw cheese and different things like that and grass fed beef. And that entire time time, I was likely building an insulin resistance, and here I have it. Even if I go low-carb, I still had the high-fasting blood glucose reading until I was able to change that around, add more polyunsaturated fats to the diet, and really see a shift take place. Right, and that's one of the really cool things that we are, I would say

we're getting some pretty confidence in some interpretations like that. And it kind of explains some of the variability that we see because there's some great research literature that suggests that for a ton of people, a lower carbohydrate diet, particularly for like type two diabetics, insulin resistance, I would say police, military, and firefighters who are experiencing both shift work demands like this altered circadian rhythm and a hypervigilant state

where they're on that fight or flight deal, a lower carb diet could be really appropriate or a targeted carbohydrate diet. But if we have someone like you, and also I have that same polymorphism, they would do a lot better to opt for olive oil in favor of say like butter or even potentially coconut oil for the most part. And it's not to say that you never have butter, never have coconut oil, but if you're doing a ketogenic or a low carb diet and you're looking to add more fat to round out your caloric needs, you, you need to give some thought to the sourcing, um, for other people

to saturate a fat is inconsequential. It doesn't alter, uh, lipoproteins, cholesterol, and it doesn't have that negative effect on the blood glucose levels. So this is where, you know, um, we have these great tools of, uh, at a macro level of, you know, moderate carb, high, high carb, low carb, but then we, we need to get in and get a little bit more granular, but you know, it's, it's interesting. What I've been settling on is, uh, looking at HRV, looking at sleep quality, and then really looking at blood glucose management. And if A1Cs look good, if fasting blood glucose generally looks good and our HRV scores are, are trending nicely, then it's kind of like, okay, steady as she goes. We, we don't need to, you know, you can tinker with stuff, but if we see things go in a negative direction and whatever we're, we're fiddling with

should probably be, you know, questioned pretty strongly. Yeah, that makes, I mean, it makes so much sense and there's so much room and even just talking about ketogenic, you know, I don't want to dive into that here for a second, but, uh, you know, there's, there's that missing piece that I had when I was in and out of ketosis for the better part of two years and my brain and cognitive ability felt never had felt better. Infl so i had no reason to suspect anything was wrong and plus i was so concerned with how high are my how high is the millimolar of my ketone bodies uh you know measuring the beta hydroxybutyrate not worried about where my insulin or where my uh blood sugar's at and then you know i get ready to do this interview with you and i'm like holy shit my blood sugar is out of whack. So I think and it's so cheap, too. You know, I mean, people complain about the three to four dollars or five

dollars per test strip for the ketones. But, you know, you could buy 100 blood glucose strips for 10 bucks on Amazon. So there's really just no reason to not dive into that and understand, you know, how food impacts your body in particular. But, um, I wanted to ask you, you know, you wrote a, uh, an article, a four, a four piece article with, uh, Dominic D'Agostino, who I, you know, I think he's, he's pretty much on the Mount Rushmore of ketosis as far as I'm concerned. And, uh, you've really broke down, you know, where is ketosis best suited? Can you, can you unpack that a little bit? Yeah. And, you know, I is ketosis best suited? Can you, can you unpack that a little bit? Yeah. And you know, I think it was Dom and, uh, um, Travis Christofferson that did that. It was

hosted on my blog, but it was kind of like the, the ketogenic diet past, present, and future. And, uh, uh, this actually, so Travis is a really fascinating guy. I believe he has an engineering background, got exposed to a researcher by the name of Thomas Seyfried, who's a ketogenic diet researcher at Boston university. And man, uh, Tom Seyfried, like he's just a fucking fireball. I, I don't know what your, your, uh, uh, language elements are on this, but it's going to be explicit on this one, but I am going to be explicit on this one. It's fucking explicit. We're good to go.

Perfect. Adult conversations. Tom is just, it's hard to describe if you haven't been in a research setting or if you haven't been this lone person in a field where you are not just the odd man out but you are ridiculed and maligned and hated for just having a pulse and i mean this is pretty much what this guy

you know has has experienced throughout his career he very early on became fascinated by this uh topic of kind of metabolic regulation of various diseases, got interested in ketogenic diets. And he's been fighting the good fight on this topic for ages. I interviewed him in 2002, trying to get this thing, 2002, 2003, trying to get this thing into the CrossFit Journal, which it was considered to be too professorial. So we ended up publishing it in this other thing called the performance menu. But he had been slogging at this stuff for ages before that. And, you know, looking at things like ketogenic diets for epilepsy, neurodegenerative diseases, and in particular for various types of brain cancers, astrocyte

and glioblastoma brain cancers, which tend to affect kids primarily. So really, you know, fascinating, important stuff. And it's only been maybe the last five, six years that so much of Tom Seyfried's work is starting to be broadly validated. Now, a ketogenic diet is not going to be the solution for all cancers. Ketogenic diets may actually be deleterious for certain types of cancers like malignant melanomas. A ketogenic diet may in fact make it more aggressive. So it's not going to end up being a panacea or cure-all, but it could be a really powerful adjunctive treatment. And there is great data that suggests that a ketogenic diet

minimizes the damage and side effects of radiation and chemo. People seem to tolerate this stuff better. So, I mean, it's a really fascinating topic of inquiry, but this is what that four-part series was about, was the kind of dark ages of when ketogenic diets were used for epilepsy, kind of the long, slow slog of people like Tom Seyfried fighting and scrapping to get any type of research or funding. And he's a brilliant guy. He's a biochemistry PhD, I believe, by background and just really rigorous, thorough science. And it's only been of late that the stuff has really been getting validated and fully vetted out and getting some good money brought to bear to investigate these topics. And so that's what

that four part series was really about. And, you know, it's interesting, um, when Travis reached out to me about running this blog post, I told him, this thing is so important. I would kill someone to run this, but if we could get it in a larger venue, that would be better because this is really about reaching as many people as we can. And so I'm pretty good friends with Tim Ferriss and I pinged him and I'm like, Hey man, I would really like to run this. But if you would be willing to run this, um, the, the more important thing is, is that, uh, you know, it gets the broadest appeal. And what Tim actually ended up doing was having me run it on my site. And then he ended up pushing it via social media and was very generous in the way that he promoted that. And, uh And that impressed Travis quite a bit. You know, he saw the email chains of me trying to push this thing up the food chain to try to get somebody else to put it out there because this is possibly an interesting deep, you know, deep, deep story in my background. But when I was 16, I had a girlfriend who developed a glioblastoma brain tumor and she ultimately died brain cancers, one cancer type that may respond very,

very favorably to ketogenic diets. So I had a really deep personal conviction to try to get this out to as many people as possible. So I, I, uh, you know, it's a, uh, emotional, um, important topic for me for sure. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. And can you kind of talk about maybe some of the new, you already have mentioned with yourself with doing Brazilian Jiu Jitsu. I'm not sure if it was in that same blog post or if it was another one that you put up, but it was, you know, really detailing like what type of athlete you are and what your goals are. You know, if you're an obese person, that's fairly sedentary. I don't think you have to worry about hitting that low gear in terms of power output and things like that you would use from a glycolytic pathway

versus if you are a high performance athlete, that's not, you know, an ultra endurance runner and maybe more in the CrossFit scene or mixed martial arts, Brazilian jujitsu, things like that, your demands and energy demands are going to be different. Can you kind of unpack that? Yeah. You know, it's funny because, and this is where personal bias can come in. For years, I tried to do the square peg round hole deal of a very low carbohydrate diet and do some combatives or do a CrossFit. And man, it just, for me, it didn't work. I know some people have kind of, you know, cracked the code on that to some degree. But if we look at the metabolic pathways at the very short time indexing, you know, less than a second up to about 10 seconds, that is mainly driven by the ATP creatine phosphate pathway. And what activities do we see there? Shot putting, high jump, 100-meter sprint,

sprints shorter than 100 meters to some degree like American football because of the sprint rest element to it, although they do in the background of American football have some reasonably significant aerobic needs for recovery, but it's not a specifically aerobic activity. Yeah. Each, each, each plays six seconds. So they definitely fall into that for the rest and repeat. Right. Right. Right. And then we, we start pushing things out and you start getting it 400 meter, 800 meter distances. Um, you, you know, it's kind of funny when you look at,

uh, wrestling and boxing. So the 400 and 800 meter distances are interesting because you almost see the track and field event distances kind of reflecting the metabolic pathways. So the 100 meter is just it's basically a bit longer than what can be purely fueled by the ATP creatine phosphate pathway. You start getting into fast glycolysis by the end of that. And then when you start getting out beyond that 200 to 800 meters, you're shifting into almost, you know, clearly you use that ATP creatine phosphate to a significant degree, particularly for last minute kicks. But it's really in that kind of fast glycolysis pathway. You get out beyond 800 meters and, you know, we're really starting to get into the aerobic pathway. How do we see time indexing in combatives? You know, boxing matches are typically three minutes. That's not too far off of what that glycolytic pathway is, you know, an 800 meter

run, even Greco, I believe is 90 seconds, you know, and which really fits right into that kind of glycolytic pathway. So inadvertently, or maybe because of our metabolic machinery, a lot of our sportive activities actually follow this time indexing of our metabolic pathways. And when we try to take something like a ketogenic diet in which we are quite low carb and do these highly glycogen demanding sports like CrossFit or soccer, Brazilian jiu-jitsu, wrestling, boxing, it's a tough matchup. It's a tough matchup. And there's a lot of controversy because when we look at the glycogen repletion of ketogenic athletes, we find that if they're given adequate time to recover from endurance type activities, their glycogen levels in their muscles are really not that far off of folks that are eating a more mixed diet. And, but yet they still tend to, um, burn a higher percentage of fat at any given, um, workout put at least up until they, they hit a certain, uh, anaerobic threshold. But it's interesting that when, just from a, if you looked at this from a textbook standpoint,

you would say, I don't know if a ketogenic or low carb diet is really going to optimally fuel these kind of glycolytically demanding sports. And then if you just do a little poking around the interwebs, you find lots of people in strength sports that seem to do well with, um, you know, uh, ketogenic or cyclic ketogenic diets. We really see a lot of chatter about people doing well at the ultra endurance, you know, type of events, the longer seemingly the better fit there is for these lower carb diets using targeted amounts of carbohydrate, you know, for certain events you're like, do you do Brazilian jujitsu? Do you do it a high level? Do you do a ketogenic diet? And there's not a lot there. And so that's very anecdotal, but it's interesting because both from kind of an academic perspective, looking at the metabolic pathways in like a biochemistry book, and then pulling back and asking some questions

about what are people experimenting with and getting success, you just don't see a lot of it in the combatives area or things like CrossFit. There are some people playing with targeted ketogenic diets, a really brilliant guy, Alessandro Ferretti. He's in the UK. He's from Italy. He competes at a high level in both judo and full contact karate. And he eats generally a ketogenic diet. But this guy is so like mega detailed. He knows what his training volume is going to look like. And so if he's doing 22 minutes of 70% glycolytic stuff, then he's going to have this many carbs to supplement that. And so he's

gotten to a point where he's able to kind of crack that code, but he is really, really good at self analysis and data interpretation. I am far too lazy to do that. So I've just kind of opted for the kind of moderate carb intake. But yeah, I mean, that's kind of the state of affairs as I understand them with regards to appropriate fueling for these different activities. Yeah, I like that a lot. And I like the idea that you can still be, you know, a dual fat burner and carb burner at the same time, depending on if you are giving yourself some time to process that food with, you know, a shortened eating window to eight hours of eating and 16 hours of fasting. And one thing I wanted to ask you know, a shortened eating window to eight hours of eating and 16

hours of fasting. And one thing I wanted to ask you about, because when I was up interviewing Ben Greenfield, you know, he does a bit of carb backloading. And I had heard about that from, I think the book called carb night. But then listening to your conversation with Brian, it was the discussion of maybe it's better to have the carbs in the morning. They eat that big breakfast and then you would have those carbohydrates pre-workout for any type of glycolytic exposure you're going to have during the day. Do you feel, you know, doing kind of shifting that direction that you run into maybe not low blood glucose or anything like that, but some type of carb craving in the evening? I have not.. And you know, this has

been one of these, uh, hacks or tweaks that has worked really well for me. So I will do more of my carbs earlier. And then I, I seem to do pretty well with that. And I think that I am, um, kind of genetically like in my 23 and me, it was, it mentioned that I'm like 300% more likely than average to develop type 2 diabetes. And both my parents developed type 2 diabetes in their late 30s. You know, I know I'm not super carb tolerant. So, you know, it kind of fits with all that stuff. But, you know, it's interesting. If I were to order out all of these different variables, you know, one, we know for sure that over consuming calories

or under consuming calories is a big problem. So like appropriate caloric load is important. Then we need to get in and think a little bit about macronutrients, protein, carbs, fat, you know, and there's some tweaks and variability there. Some people do better with a little higher, a little lower with these things. And then we start getting into the time indexing of this story. And that can be, do you eat earlier in the day or later in the day? And there's pluses and minuses to both of those. Like you've, you've mentioned that you seem to feel better waiting until that, that first meal happens around noon. And then you, you know, subsequent to that, you've got like a six or eight hour window that you eat. And from a lifestyle standpoint, I would say that that's super easy

because then you don't have to eat breakfast. Usually you've got a bunch of work done. You've been really productive. But there is this other element of our circadian biology, which we are pretty clearly more insulin sensitive earlier in the day relative to later in the day. So there are people that, you know, you could make an argument that you could front load the carbs and then be lower carbohydrate later. And, you know, it does become a bit of a calculus problem. Like, do you do this versus that, you know? And, and, uh, uh, you know, if we were to order this stuff out, my, again, my understanding of this currently appropriate caloric load is probably most important, but right on the heels of that is this circadian biology. And there, there is some

interesting research that suggests that even at the same caloric load, so they had people eat exactly the same amount of calories, the same macronutrients, the whole nine yards. And when people ate the preponderance of those calories earlier in the day, they tended to have better body composition, better blood glucose levels, better lipid levels, lower inflammation relative to people eating the bulk of those calories later in the day. But then we have some caveats with that. There are some people that are very sympathetic nervous system dominant. They're just kind of wound tight and maybe they have some difficulties falling asleep. Those people may end up experiencing better sleep by, like what you

said, doing some carb backloading, doing more carbs in the evening. Um, this is where, you know, tweaking things, uh, by using heart rate variability and also, uh, blood glucose monitoring. I think that we can kind of play with both of those options, carbs earlier, carbs later, uh, compressed feeding window shifted more earlier and fewer calories later. We can play with that and then look at body composition performance and find some optimization. But as I understand it, those are kind of the big levers that we have available to be able to pull and see what type of results we get. I love it. Definitely a lot of self-experimentation that can go on here to

really fine-tune. It feels like the deeper you dive into this, it's like there's just more worlds. It just keeps going. It's fucking infinite in the knowledge that we can receive and really just dial in what makes us feel best. Yeah. 10 years ago, I was super confident I had all of this stuff figured out. And now I, my answer is, I don't know. It depends. Like I sound like a used car salesman or a politician or something. It's like, I just really don't know. But I do think that we're at a spot where we, again, we have some basic templates nutritionally that we can look at. And then we have a couple, again, a couple of levers that we can pull. And so we start with this whole unprocessed diet and let's first, you know, try to go to bed. I think there's so much great data and we can experience this immediately. Try to get our circadian biology or our wake sleep cycles as closely attuned to the natural world as we can. You should be waking up about the time the sun comes up and you should be going to bed about the time the sun goes down.

Now this can suck if you live in Seattle and you're in the winter, you know, you have a pretty short day and those are some situations where maybe you really do wanna front load carbohydrate and then have fewer calories and certainly fewer carbs later in the day, or you just consider moving to a sunny climate like Reno, Nevada,

pretty damn happy. But you know, the, uh, we, we do have at our disposal now, some things like HRV, like blood glucose monitoring, uh, that we can, we can get some pretty good insight into what's going on. And we're actually working on a practitioner training course to train coaches, dieticians, nutritional therapy practitioners, how to use what's called a continuous glucose monitor to help people use one of these devices that you just slap on the back of your arm and it monitors your blood glucose over a two or three week period. And we can do some experimentation. And then ideally, if we're also tracking some heart rate variability or some sleep monitoring, we can get a really good picture of how folks are responding to different protocols. And then

we can kind of tweak that to optimize things. Very good. Yeah, I think the simpler we can make it, the better. And, you know, I'm certainly down to get in on one of these continuous blood glucose monitors just to really see how things impact me throughout the day and which workouts are going to take the most out of me, I think is a big one, too. Right, right. We're getting close to the end here, but let's talk a little bit about community. I read this book called Tribe by Sebastian Younger. It's an amazing book. You mentioned the importance of that in Wired to Eat. You touch on a lot of great things, but can you dive into how we've lost our community, more or less? Yeah, and maybe even before that, setting the stage of why it is community matter. And again, if you look at

some of this evolutionary biology, um, the, you know, primates typically live in communal groups. And interestingly, the size of the group tends to order kind of linearly with the size of the brain. So the bigger the brain, the bigger the group and humans historically have lived in these, these groups that tend to max out at about 150 individuals. And if the group gets much larger than that, then you tend to see some splintering and fractioning. Military units are kind of broken up and they tend to cap out at these 150 person, 140 people. When the Mormons went across the plains, they were kind of parceled out in these 140, 150 person groups. But these things are large enough that you've got a real diversity of ideas

and skill sets, but they're small enough that everybody kind of knows each other. And particularly if you're in a survival story, which we've been in up until very recently in our history, everybody relied on each other. And there was a huge consideration of reciprocity, like you help me today, so I'm going to help you tomorrow. And we really do it because if you don't do it, people are going to die and the people might be yourself. And so there are some, you know, strongly conserved evolutionary tweaks and wirings that reward us for having a strong, vibrant, uh, uh, communal connectivity. And as we've developed, you know, uh, when we shifted from an agricultural society to, uh, you know, industrial revolution, people tended to move to

cities. Um, even in these city scenarios, people tended to kind of aggregate together based off of ethnic or religious backgrounds. And they still were able to maintain a pretty strong sense of community. But as we've shifted into this information age, it's really cool on the one hand in that if you have a particular skill set, if that skill set becomes unsaleable in the particular area that you live in, you could move somewhere else and likely get some employment. And so from an economic standpoint in that regard, our modern information age is really powerful in that people can move around and they can take their skill sets and have them used in different locations. But what it's really done is fractionated our, our community. People don't

tend to go to churches, uh, civic groups and whatnot. Um, one of the interesting phenomenas of CrossFit is that the, the community element is really the glue of the whole experience. I mean, why would you go and just get the shit beat out of you if there wasn't some really significant upside in that community piece is really, really powerful. And what we, you know, there's been some research in areas called the blue zones where they look at these very long-lived healthy populations. There's been a ton of chatter about what the folks ate and what they perceived to not eat and whatnot.

But something that is almost universally ignored is the community element. And it's fairly well understood that people who lack adequate social connectivity are as at risk of morbidity and mortality, sickness and death as a pack a day smoker. And it's largely due to stress. And so that community element is, is really impossible to overstate the, the importance, but almost every element of our modern lives has driven this, uh, uh, process of minimizing both community and the opportunity for community. And it's interesting. Social media is kind of the junk food of community in that it kind of feels like you're connected.

It kind of feels like community. It certainly occupies the time that you could have devoted towards cultivating community, but it provides none of the benefits, none of the upside. And I think in Sebastian Junger's book, he talked about these soldiers that were in these extremely stressful situations, uh, oftentimes seeing, you know, members of their,

their group killed or wounded, but they would want to go back after they, you know, they finished a deployment cycle because the rest of their life is so devoid of that really powerful, intimate contact. And, uh, even people who've gone through say like, uh, battling cancer, uh, while they were in the, the fight, they had all this community and, and attention and outpouring. And then after they beat the cancer, they were depressed and they were like, I know it sounds crazy, but I almost wish I had cancer again. Like I've never felt as alive or loved or as connected as when I was really sick. And, you know, it's a really profound statement about our current world. And, you know, it's one of those things that is really challenging to fill that void. And that's why I do think like a well-run CrossFit type gym can be really powerful in that regard. A good martial arts program, Brazilian jujitsu, boxing, kickboxing, jujitsu is kind of my favorite because I feel like it's far more accessible to, you know, big people, small people, old people. I think that you can plug more folks into that a little bit easier than you can some

of the striking, uh, uh, martial arts, but you know, anything like that, yoga Pilates, so long as there's a good community element to it, these things can, can be make or break elements of our, our health and our wellness. And, um, you know, beyond that, like when I've worked with clients, I've had some very wealthy, very successful people who were just miserable fuckers to be around. I mean, you know, you love them, but they've got everything in the world going well for them. But when you really peel back the veil, they were incredibly lonely. And I had these people start doing some volunteering at like animal shelters teaching kids how to read you know it's like hey two days a week you're going to be committed to this and there's a group a group of people some animals whatever and you are responsible

to them and they are dependent on you and um it was a life, life-changing event for these people to have that community and to have that sense that they were needed and they mattered. And this might be running in the background, these people being Fortune 500, Fortune 50 CEOs, and they've got all this power and people trying to curry favor with them, but they didn't really have community or intimacy. And this volunteer work ended up really being the secret sauce for them. Yeah, I think that can have a profound change and impact on people's lives. I also like the idea of so many people have this problem with, well, I lift weights because someone else tells me to, or, you know, I'll go for a run because someone else told me to, and I need to lose this weight because the doctor says so. And they don't enjoy movement.

They don't enjoy working out. But when you go to, you know, a place like Brazilian Jiu Jitsu Academy or CrossFit or yoga for that matter, not only do you get this community element and you feel like you belong after a certain amount of time and you build friendships and relationships with these people, but that's your fucking workout and you're learning something as you do it. You know, so there's, there's this element of, it's not you on your own. You don't have to worry about what the lesson is because you've got, you know, hopefully a great instructor there that's going to show you something new that day. And you continue to grow and learn as you're

getting your movement practice in and your community practice as well. Yeah. So it's, uh, you're ticking multiple boxes all at once, which, you know, we are time crunched. We, we do have a lot of demands on our time. So if you can get the workout, the community, some fun, all wrapped into one, one experience, that's, that's pretty legit. And if you can get the workout, the community, some fun, all wrapped into one, one experience, that's, that's pretty legit. And again, you know, uh, uh, I don't know if, if, uh, you know, this, or maybe your listeners know this, but I co-founded the first and fourth CrossFit affiliate gyms in the world, not, not just like down the street, but in the world. And so I'm really, I, I, uh, there are challenges to CrossFit. There's

some, uh, quality control issues and stuff like that. I think that, you know, the CrossFit games are really cool and really amazing, but they tend to get people too focused on that competitive element instead of just using it as a community building deal and, you know, just getting healthier and stronger and more mobile and everything. But it's tough to beat that CrossFit scene for all this stuff. Cause you could, a well-run CrossFit type gym. If the people know what they're doing, they're going to talk to you about food. They're going to talk to you about sleep and circadian rhythm. The workout is kind of the reason why you show up and the community is just baked in the cake. And so you end up getting a ton of really good stuff, you know, just all in that, you know, one hour a day, hopefully several days a week experience. Yeah, and I got to say here because I find it funny, you know, so many people, when you talk about CrossFit, you either have this, oh, it's a joke, everyone gets hurt, or CrossFit saved my life.

It's one of the most amazing things I've ever done. And I was listening to, I think a mind pump was interviewing Paul check and they asked him what his thoughts on CrossFit were. And he said, well, that's like asking me my, what are my thoughts on juggling? You know, and he, he is the analogy. Uh, you know, if you're going to start juggling, maybe you start with oranges or apples. You don't start with knives. And a lot of these places that, you know you know if you the difference is if it's good coaching and a really good program you're not going to start juggling knives you're going to learn the basics and you're going to progress through that with health in mind and with you know injury prevention in mind and then that flip side is you start right off you know with with

juggling knives and that's where we see injuries and things like that, but it's not an across the board deal. That's for sure. Right. Well, thank you so much, Rob. I really appreciate you coming on and, uh, appreciate you taking the time out of the day for me. It's, it's been an excellent show with you. Oh, huge honored to be on the show. I'm just a huge fan of yours. So, I mean, this was really a massive treat for me. Thank you so much. Thank you, brother. And we'll try to get you back on in four to six months and see what new stuff you've come up with working with Ryan and different people. Anytime you want me to bring down property values, I'm there. Awesome, brother. Take care, Rob. You too. Bye-bye.

Thank you guys for tuning in to the On It podcast. Really hope you enjoyed our episode with Rob Wolf. He's taught me so much. He's been a huge influence on my life and my health and wellness. If you guys appreciate it as much as I do, go ahead and leave us a five-star rating or just share it with your friends. Let them know about this podcast. Let them know about this episode. And we'll catch you next week.