Kyle Kingsbury Podcast - #203 Paul Levy

Episode Date: June 11, 2021

I’m so grateful to get to bring this conversation to you fam. In it, Paul and I get deep into the Wetiko myth and ways to tread the dark waters you may find yourself in when Wetiko is present in your life. I hope this brings y'all as much value as his writings have for me. Please reach out on the gram and let me know how it landed! Connect with Paul:   Website: www.awakeninthedream.com  Articles Index  The Quantum Revelation(new book)  Sponsors:   The Cold Plunge Trade up from your inefficient ice chest to The Cold Plunge by heading to thecoldplunge.com and use codeword “KKP” at checkout for $111 off! Lucy Go to lucy.co and use codeword “KKP” at Checkout to get 20% off the best nicotine gum in the game, or check out their lozenge. Bioptimizers To get the ’Magnesium Breakthrough‘ deal exclusively for fans of the podcast, click the link below and use code word “KINGSBU10” for an additional 10% off. magbreakthrough.com/kingsbu  Silentmode has coupled a great sensory deprivation mask and high quality on-ear headphones to bring you an incredible medium to deliver both their Breathonics as well as binaural beats technology. Use code KKP for 15% off the product and 6 months of Breathonics for free. Head to silentmode.com/KKP for 15% off POWERMASK and 6 months free subscription to Breathonics. This can teach you proper breathwork and get meditation dialed in! Discount code “KKP21”  Connect with Kyle:   Instagram: @livingwiththekingsburys   Youtube: Kyle Kingbury Podcast  Kyles website: www.kingsbu.com    Like and subscribe to the podcast anywhere you can find podcasts. Leave a 5-star review and let me know what resonates or doesn’t.

Welcome to today's podcast with Paul Levy. Paul Levy is somebody who I have been thinking about for some time now. Many of you have heard me, my podcast, the solo cast that I last did on The Dark Night of the Soul. And Paul Levy's work as an author with Dispelling Wetiko was instrumental in getting me through the hell. Basically, it was fucking hell. There's no two ways about it. My interaction with Watico, which is the Native American term for evil, darkness, the devil, whatever you want to call that energy, was brought on through a trip with 5MEO DMT around solstice of last year, winter solstice.

And it was dark times. I mean, I literally lost my mind for 17 days. If you haven't listened to that podcast, and one of the grounding chords that set me straight was reading Paul Levy's book, Dispelling Wetiko. It is absolutely fantastic. You don't have to have listened to the solo cast or have read Dispelling Wetiko to get a lot from this episode. We dive into a lot on Wetiko, what it is, how we interact with it. We dive into Paul's personal story in going to a mental hospital and how he found his way out through spiritual awakening. Actually, he was going through a spiritual awakening,

which landed him in the loony bin, which is ironic and hilarious. But we dive into a lot of great stuff. Paul also did another book, The Quantum Revelation, which many of you have heard me speak about. And it is incredible. It is so good. So please check out these books. We'll link to them in the show notes. He's got another two, I think, that he's authoring right now. So we had to keep this interview pretty short, but he'll be back on the show for sure. I will continue to read anything this guy writes. And it's just a fantastic episode. I know you guys are going to love. There's a number of ways you guys can support this podcast. Leave us a five-star rating. That way people can hear about it and check out our sponsors. We are brought to you today by the coldplunge.com. The Plunge's revolutionary

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Use the promo code KKP21. That's silentmode.com slash KKP, promo code KKP21, and you'll get the hookup there. All right, and we're ready. My dude, Paul Levy. Paul Levy, welcome to the podcast, brother. Hey, it's great being here. Thank you. Yeah, I was absolutely thrilled. You know, uh, I'm, I'm good friends with Paul check and he's one of my mentors and, um, he actually,

he around Christmas time, I think had every one of his students and close friends get the quantum revelation. And this was right after I had just finished dispelling with Tico. And I was like, Oh baby, we got a new one. So, and of course, that wasn't, it was released maybe a couple years ago at this point, but it was new to me and just blown away by the expertise in there. And then once I saw that you were on Living 4D, I wrote him immediately. I was out in Costa Rica and I was like, Paul, you got to get me Paul Levy now, please. I really, really want to have him on the podcast. So I'm absolutely thrilled that you've joined us.

I want to take a dive down your background because we all come to walk our own paths. And for those of us who have a glimpse of enlightenment, whatever that may mean, sometimes the path is not as pretty as what we may think it is. So if you could break down your life growing up and what led you to be who you are, and maybe we can start diving into some of these books that you've released out to the world. Sure. No, I'm happy to do that. So yeah, my background is kind of unique in that, so I'm in my mid-60s now but 40 years ago actually this month um 1981 i had um this life transforming over-the-top spiritual awakening that almost killed me and

it wound up destroying my entire family the intensity of it and what had happened just to create context because it really is like the source of my whole body of work, is that, you know, like, I'm not going to go into the story, but I'm an only child. And it wound up my father was a really, really bad guy. And I, you know, like every one of us, I was very sensitive. And I was the recipient of him acting out his unhealed abuse, you know, which so many people do. They just act it out on their next of kin. But, um, it was so intense that it created this enormous suffering for me. And so, you know, and I'm talking about being in my early twenties. And so the, you know,

we were such intense suffering that I went from being a highly accomplished person to that it stopped me from being able to live my life. And so I knew I had to deal with it. And the only thing I could figure out that was helping was to go inwards, was to really observe what was happening inside of my mind. So I did that very, very intensively for a couple of years. And that catalyzed the spiritual awakening. And in this spiritual awakening, I got hit by a bolt of lightning while I was sitting in meditation, but just in my brain, it ignited for a nanosecond. And then I went into this incredibly extreme state in which I began to recognize, oh, my God, we're having a mass shared dream. And I was realizing, oh my God, I'm waking

up to the nature of things and to my nature. And I was so ecstatic and so enthusiastic that I immediately got brought by ambulance to a mental hospital and was put in a mental hospital. And within a minute, this life changing synchronicity happened. I'm not going to go into that. But the point is, I knew I was having a spiritual awakening. And then here I was getting like introduced to psychiatry. And all they knew to do was pathologize me. And they right away diagnosed me and medicated me. And in that next couple of years, probably, I don't know, four times or so, I was, you know, thrown in mental hospitals. And the DSM-3 had just come out the year before in 1980 with, you know, announcing the chemical imbalance discovery.

So everybody was, every psychiatrist, you know, was diagnosing me with this newly discovered chemical imbalance, telling me I had this mental illness, that I'd have to be on medication the rest of my life. And I just thought they have no idea what's happening. psychiatry who authored the chemical imbalance theory, they then a number of years later came out and said, oh, by the way, that was completely fabricated and bogus and made up. It was the pharmaceutical company's idea. It's the authors of the DSM-3 who wrote that into the DSM-3 are now years later saying, oh, there's no such thing as a chemical imbalance. But it's a meme that has taken that as such traction and really gotten entrained in our minds that people still bandy it about. But to make a long story short,

so I knew I was having a spiritual awakening, but by the last hospitalization in 1982, I was totally traumatized by the unbelievable abuse of psychiatry. And, you know, when I say it destroyed my family, my parents bought into the psychiatric version that, oh, I'm just in denial of my mental illness. And they took that to their grave because in their mind, psychiatrists were authority figures. to their grave because in their mind psychiatrists were authority figures but i was fortunate and that i the one thing that saved me the experiences i i would you know were or was having were so overwhelmingly clear that i was having a spiritual awakening that i knew it you know and no one could

talk me out of it and and that's what saved me so then when i got out of the last hospital i was totally traumatized then from the abuse from my father and psychiatry, like a sort of a double hit. But then, you know, I spent over 10 years just doing work on myself and going to therapy and working with my dreams and connecting with young and doing Buddhist practice and studying shamanism and going into alchemy and just anything and everything that would alleviate my suffering. And then, you know, in the early nineties, I realized, well, I have something to offer now. I'm not in any way fully cooked, but at least I've integrated enough that I feel like I have a gift based on my initiatory ordeal that I can offer it to other

people. And so that's when I started my practice, helping people. That is a gnarly thing to go through as some initiations can be. Did you have a spiritual practice prior? Like what, obviously, there's, when you have an awakening, at least in my experience,

it is absolutely undeniable. So that part, as you explain this, completely resonates with me. But as you talk about Jung and alchemy and some of these other things, practices, obviously, Buddhism is layered through your books in a fantastic way that's highly receivable. Had you had experience studying Buddhism and some of these other mystical traditions? Yeah, not only, but that's a good question. And basically, once, you know, once the trauma

blossomed in me, which was in 1980, and the awakening happened in the spring of 1981, you know, and I began studying, you know, different types of Buddhism, Krishna, Murthy, just, you know, That was really my introduction. I had had some introduction in college to Kastaneda and psychedelics and stuff like that, but I was really starting to do Vipassana meditation, really spend hours a day doing that and studying Suzuki Roshi, Zen Mind, Beginner's Mind, Trungpa, Chögyam Trungpa Rinpoche, his writings. I was actually getting to meet Trungpa because he was coming to where I was living. And then just doing a lot of Vipassana. So yeah, I was for maybe one

and a half years really steeped in it, but that was just the beginning. I had no idea what I was in for. That often is the case. You reach a brand new level of awareness and you're like, holy shit, it's different here. And then, oh, but there's more. Oh, but there's more. And I think that's, as you allude to in quantum revelation, likely the nature of the infinite unfolding. Well, let's talk. I mean, I think one thing that becomes very clear as we start to broaden our awareness is just how fucked up things are in the world. And I think it was your first book. Was it on George W. Bush? Yeah, yeah, yeah. I wrote a book, The Madness of George W. Bush. Yeah, totally. yeah yeah yeah i wrote a book the madness of george w bush it's cool to see the arc of your writing you know because it's like

um and that's actually the only book that i haven't read out of the the three there's three of them correct well no then there's the um awakened by darkness, which is my memoir. And that I wrote in between Dispelling Watiko and The Quantum Revelation. And that was really, that's about my encounter with archetypal evil through the figure of my father and through psychiatry. And it's all about the trauma and the wounding and the abuse that I went through in order to really connect with my voice and discover my work. Yeah. Okay. Beautiful. Beautiful. I'm just thinking to what you discover, obviously, I think a lot of people in the States didn't quite get it, but if you left the country and went international while W. Bush was in office, it was painfully obvious how the rest of the world viewed us. And I mean, painfully obvious, but

looking back on that, one of the books that have recommended people to have a deeper understanding of how America has treated the rest of the world is The new confessions of an economic hitman or just the confessions of an economic hitman, phenomenal books. But talk a bit about this arc, you know, you into your self-discovery, you had already had these pieces in place that were really there as foundational pieces that allowed you to work with something, a working model. Let's just dive into the darkness. Let's dive into what is Wetiko and how is it pervading all things right now? Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, so that's great. Wetiko, it's a Native American idea coming out of the Algonquin language or the Korean Indians, um, Ojibwe have a different,

slightly different phrase, but it's all the same idea where it's this cannibalistic spirit. It's the spirit of evil that can actually possess a person. And they then acted out and become the instrument. And, you know, so I, as a Westerner, I really, I'm just a translator. I've just, as soon as I became aware of the Watiko idea and I studied it, I began to realize, oh my God, this maps on 100% to, you know, the evil that I was experiencing, not only coming through my father, but the field around him, the way it would configure to protect the abuser. And then I realized, oh my God, it's the same energy, the same dark energy that was coming through psychiatry. And it was a mind fuck. It was like, you know, it was crazy making. And so as a translator, you know, into a Western idiom of this indigenous term, you know, I point out, it's a psychospiritual disease of the soul that exists in the collective unconscious of our species. You know, it pervades everything. We all have it in potential and you know,

and what he go, it's, you know, one way to think of it, it's like this mind, like sort of this virus of the mind that operates through our blind spots. It's a form of blindness, of psychic blindness, but it's a unique form of psychic blindness in that it actually thinks that it's sighted. And not only does it think it's sighted, it thinks it's seeing more clearly than people who actually are sighted. And it's aed and not only does it think it's sighted it thinks it's seeing more clearly than people who actually are sighted and it's a form of blindness that we don't know we're blind when we're afflicted with what you go and any of us can have it at any given moment and it feeds off

of fear and separation and it stops us from seeing our own light but it also stops us from seeing our own light, but it also stops us from seeing the darkness, our own shadow. But the thing about Huatico, it's this revelation. And it's a quantum phenomena that it has a superposition of states, that it's the source of the greatest evil, and it's also encoded, hidden within it, is the greatest blessing. It's helping us to wake up. It's like propelling us to make, to access our divine endowment and our incredible creative gifts. So it's actually showing us something. And it's a dreamed up phenomenon. I can say more about that. But if we don't recognize what it's showing us, then it's going to kill us. And now the thing is, I want to point out, because I don't want people to be scared, you know, because Watiko feeds off

of fear, you know, the thing about Watiko, it doesn't even exist. There's no such thing as Watiko. It is no intrinsic, independent existence at all from its own side. But it exists. It's not separate from our own mind. So here's this thing, which in Buddhism is called empty. It has no intrinsic independent existence separate from our own mind. So on the one hand, there's nothing to be afraid of, and yet it can kill us. Okay. So it's this revelation. And if we don't recognize what it's showing us, it's going to continue its, its program function of destroying us, you know, because it actually,

because it operates through the blind spots, it operates through the unconscious. So we then become identified with it in a certain way through our unconscious. And then we unwittingly become an instrument to act it out in the world. So we then become the vector to act it out. And if I could just say one more thing, because there are so many trippy things about Huatico, the Bible in the apocryphal text, you know, in the apocryphal text, you know, that was the real sacred teachings in the Bible. In the apocryphal text, they completely point out Huatico. They

call it the counterfeiting spirit. But as I point out in my next book, because I have two new books coming out on Huatico, the Huatico spirit was on the editorial board of the Bible and edited out any reference, not any reference, but this particular reference, the counterfeiting spirit. Because, you know, Huatico can't be exposed when you see it. It hates that because then you take away its power over you and you empower yourself. So we can only have power over us to the extent that it's not seen. But this counterfeiting spirit, what it does, it actually impersonates us. It puts us on, which is to fool us, but putting us on like a suit of clothes. So if we are in awake in that moment, we then identify with its limited version, its fictitious identity of who we are.

And then as soon as we step into the Watiko forged identity, then by the power of our mind, we're going to attract all the evidence confirming, oh, I'm really limited. I'm really traumatized. I'm wounded, you know, blah, blah, blah. And you see, Huatico has no creativity, but it plugs into our own creative agency, turning it against ourselves to serve its nefarious purpose. So I'll stop there. I could say a lot more, but that's just a little bit of an introduction to the multidimensional, you know, sort of spirit. Yeah, something that you pointed out in the book that was absolutely beautiful is how he anthropomorphize everything. And so we have this caricature of the devil or Satan or what evil is as this guy in a red suit with a pitchfork and hot coals that he's jamming into you. And,

you know, but that's not what what tico is what tico is non-local and that actually pairs very well with the quantum revelation the book that followed because of the fact that because it's not local it exists simultaneously within everything and everyone yeah yeah yeah that's exactly it the non-local because quantum physics has discovered that this this universe is non-local which is to say you know, it doesn't play by the rules of third dimensional space and time, and that this universe being quantum, you know, on all levels is a whole system. There's no separate parts interacting. So every part of the universe, all throughout space and time, is interconnected with every other part there's no separation anywhere so you know this universe is non-local and what tico shares in that as do we you know i mean we have this this limited aspect but not but what tico is non-local in that it's not contained or circumscribed by space and time the way we understand it and so you see the thing is it's like the unconscious

when you see somebody acting out the unconscious the unconscious is non-local and that you can't possibly see somebody acting out the unconscious without your unconscious being activated and then it depends well what do you do with that you know how do you deal with being triggered you know and if you just indulge in acting out your unconscious as a result of seeing another person acting out their unconscious, well, then that's one situation where you're both going to be triggering each other. But if you have your unconscious activated and self-reflect and metabolize what got activated in you, then you're able to integrate that,

then that's a whole different story. So the same thing with huatico. When we see huatico in someone, it activates the huatico in us. And so say, for example, if somebody, you know, like a president or a prime minister or whoever, if they're like really incarnating and possessed by and embodying huatico, and if we say, oh, well, they have Huatico, they're embodying Huatico, and if we

think they have it and we don't, then that's an expression that we've fallen under the thrall of the bug, that we have Huatico, you know, as is evidenced by that perspective, you know, because it feeds off of separation and polarization. Yeah. I'm thinking of that, the ways in which you point out and you brought up countless archetypes throughout our stories growing up from Count Dracula to some of the different evildoers, but thinking of Dracula and vampires in general, how they can't see themselves in the mirror. You know, there's no self, they can't have self-reflection,

but one of the ways that we dispel Watiko is through self-reflection. That was truly. Yeah, yeah, and Watiko is totally a vampire. I mean, it literally feeds off of our life force. Remember, it has no independent existence on its own. It's a form of death taking on life. So if left to its own devices, it would die. So it feeds off of our life force. But part of the vampire myth is that a vampire has no power over us unless we invite it in so the point is is that you know it's important to find out where we're colluding with watiko with that vampire with the evil you know because um without our being complicit we it has no power over us okay now yeah and i was pointing out in my book like all you know

like with indigenous um traditions they'll talk about oh there are these you know devil or demon a demon you know that's the in a way that's the indigenous term for what tico in the sense that in psychology speak when the wholeness of our psyche gets you know traumatized and we split off and um we you know disassociate what happens is that an autonomous complex that's the the psychological term um will develop that'll seemingly have this life or will of its own and And, you know, and it will seemingly act out contrary to our best intentions. And that autonomous complex, that's the demons. That's what an indigenous culture would call a demon. And one way of thinking about that is that's what Tico, it's a split off part of the psyche, you know, split off from our own wholeness that develops a seeming autonomy of its own.

But keep in mind, you know, it doesn't actually exist in an autonomous way. That's why I say seeming autonomy. And now also a thing about Watiko, which is so amazing, this is one of the most psychedelic aspects of it, is that it's an inner disease of the soul that explicates itself through the medium of the outside world so it's somehow able so it's an inner disease of the soul that's somehow able to extend itself out into the outside world in such a way so as to configure events in the world so as to in a synchronistic way reflect back what's happening inside the psyche that's under its thrall. Now, that's amazing because what that means, what I'm describing is that when somebody is under the spell of Hortico, they will play out their inner circumstance

of their psyche will literally get reflected through the outer events in their life. So the outer is actually reflecting the inner, you know, vice versa to the inner is reflecting the outer. That's an expression of a dream. You see, that's what I began to wake up to when I had my awakening, I was realizing, oh, my God, we're having a mass shared collective dream. And when you see the dreamlike nature, when you see that correspondence between the outer and the inner, that's when you're beginning to first be able to see Huatico, how it operates in the world and how it operates through our unconscious reactions in our own mind. Yeah, it's beautifully stated.

And that's something that I've had to I've been wrapping my head around for probably the last five or six months in detail. I had many of my listeners heard me drop a solo podcast where I talked about the dark night of the soul with 5MEO DMT and really experienced hands-on for 17 days with Tico in its fullness and how it showed up in various ways. It just changed and morphed. Any spiritual teaching I was reading, it truly acted like a mind virus. It would invert it and turn it on its head. Like an old spiritual, the Tatuamasi, I am that too. I would see all the darkness in the world and Tatuamasi, like I am that too. But it really, I mean, to the darkest of the darkest,

you know, it was showing me, yes, you're this. Yes, you're this with some of the horrific things that are going on. But even just on a mirroring standpoint, it dawned on me while I was reading the book that holy shit, like we'd have a literal virus right now in the world. And here's this mind virus internally that is really terrorizing right now.

And it's interesting to see because, you know, as we talk about, and I want you to break down, you know, we'll dive into quantum revelation, but dependent co-arising is something that really blew me away. And I want you to unpack that for us, but seeing that if everything is mirrored in the external as the internal and as above, so below as within, so without, it's pretty gnarly to think of what consciousness is doing right now within itself to see the world externally and understand like the giant upheaval that's taking place. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Well, we're, you know, I mean, we're like I was saying, what Tico, it's a dreamed up phenomenon where we're dreaming up the white Tico collective psychosis.

Cause that's what it is. It's a collective psychosis, you know? And, but you know, the point is, is that because it's a dreamed up phenomena, we can undream it. We, you see the, the point is this because it's a dreamed-up phenomena, we can undream it.

You see, the point is this, in essence, I mean, really one of the most fundamental parts of my work is that each one of us have this unimaginably vast creative power at our disposal right now, 24-7. We've always had it. But to the extent we don't know we have it, that creative power, in a way, gets turned against us. You know, like, you know, the powers that be or the powers of the quantum physics stuff, because quantum physics is empirically showing,ably vast creative agency that each of us have. Every moment, through how we interpret our experience, through the meaning we place on our experience, we have just unbelievable power in creating our experience of ourselves and our experience of the world. But to the extent we don't know that, you know, just like a dream that then gets projected out and then we feel into the dream

and other people pick it up and we feel victimized and we feel helpless and we feel like we don't have any power. But, you know, the real medicine, you see, it's because of this that people who are switched on to the Watiko idea say this is the most important thing in the world to understand. It's not even close. It's not even a competition. Castaneda, he doesn't have the word Watiko, but he'll talk about it. His teacher talks about it in the Castaneda books, and he says it's the topic of topics. There's nothing more important than this

because this is the medicine this is what we have multiple converging world crises we're in the process of destroying ourselves you know they're that's not up for debate i mean for anybody who has eyes to see and but what i'm pointing at is that yeah there's a certain medicine encoded in the pathology because remember what you go it's a certain medicine encoded in the pathology. Because remember, Watiko, it's a quantum phenomena. It contains the deepest evil and this incredible gift. And so what I'm pointing at is that, yeah, it's to the extent that we're able to, in a sense, access this incredible creative agency. And when enough of us do that and connect with each other, that's the medicine. That's where we can literally help each other to wake up.

We can conspire to co-inspire. It's a true conspiracy theory. We can actually dream ourselves awake. And this is to step in and in a participatory way, step into our own evolutionary process, and we can help each other to deepen and stabilize our awakening. And so, you know, I'm just wondering, can I go into the- Oh, please, please do. This is fantastic. And don't, you know, face-to-face where we can see each other, you know, back and forth are great, but on these online podcasts, like, yeah, I'm lobbing softballs to you. Please just run with it as long as you possibly can go. Okay, great. Sure. Because quantum physics, you know, how come I wrote that quantum physics book is because I was realizing, oh my God, on one hand, quantum physics helped me to

understand the experiences I began having, these completely out of the the experiences I began having these completely out of the ordinary experiences I began having when I when my spiritual awakening started in 1981 but then I realized that quantum physics it not only helped me contextualize my own experience but it also is offering us the medicine for what you go here what you go okay you know i've made the diagnosis it's the mind virus huatico that's what's afflicting our species that's the source of the madness and the evil that we're playing out that's the diagnosis well and the prognosis is oh well quantum physics is offering us the medicine it's one of the things offering us the medicine but but it's, you know, current in our world and in our minds right now. And, you know, if we take in the medicine, then not only can we heal what Tico, but then what Tico can reveal its positive aspect of catalyzing us to expand our consciousness.

So to talk about quantum physics, before quantum physics came on the scene 100 years ago, more or less, scientists thought that this universe existed objectively separate from them, and they were just trying to explore it and understand it as passive observers. comes along which proved empirically beyond the shadow of a doubt that there's no such thing as an objective cosmos that this universe that the act of observing this universe actually influences the universe observed i should just do a short commentary that's a description of a dream when you're in a dream when you change your the dream, which is none other than a reflection of your own mind, has no choice but to instantaneously shapeshift and reflect your change in perception because the dream is nothing other than your own mind. So quantum physics was beginning to plug into the dreamlike nature and to recognize the role that mind, that consciousness played in the creation of the physical world. So by proving that there's no objective world, that the act of observing is actually influencing the world that we're observing, it's pointing out that the act of observation is creative, that we are incredibly creative beings that have creative power beyond measure. Okay.

Now, to understand this, then you begin to realize, oh my God, you know, it can, when you have this realization, it just like unlocks the most enormous creativity. That's our nature. But we've been using it unconsciously. And then the Watiko bug plunks into our, you know, you know, unaccessed creative spirit been using it unconsciously. And then the Watiko bug plugs into our, you know, you know, unaccessed creative spirit and turns it against us. And so the point is, is that when you discover that there's no objective world, that the act of observing actually influences the universe observed, the act of observation is creative, and that we discover that we're these creative beings, you discover, wait, if there's no objective world, then who am

I? Because that's the main task of science, according to the greatest scientists, is discovering who are we? And if there's no objective world, who are we as a subject? We need an object to be in relationship to in order to be a subject. If there's no objective world, if there's no objective anything, then who are we? You see, quantum physics has actually unwittingly promoted itself to be a spiritual path because it's shedding light on our nature. Now, it's one thing for one person to have this realization. It'll change their life. Their life will improve. You know, just you'll change their life, their life will improve,

you know, just you can't even imagine how much it will improve in every arena. But that's insignificant. Because the idea is, is that what you discover is that who we are, we don't exist as a separate self that we're interdependent and interconnected with each other. Okay. And that as long as, as other people are suffering, we ourselves are in hold because the other person is ourselves. There is no separation in a quantum world. Okay. So the point is, is that then you connect with your like calling and vocation to be in service. And when you have this realization, you understand, okay, it helps my life a lot, but I want to share it. Because you see, quantum physics is called, I actually gave a big talk about this, in Tibetan Buddhism, there's a phenomenon called

terma. And terma are the hidden treasures. And the idea is, is that and you know, the the lineage, one of the lineage, I do practice to it, you know, the teachings are kept fresh by like these continually rediscovered treasures that are found in in the multidimensional fabric of the universe, including inside of our minds. So when all of a sudden, you know, the practice or the teachings get stale or one-sided, one of these hidden treasures will be discovered. And it'll give instructions or it'll be a prayer or a teaching or a practice or a blessed object or something to bring the community of practitioners back into balance. It's like having a dream. And when we get off balance, the dream compensates the one-sidedness and brings us back to balance. So these terma, they're like alarm clocks that are hidden in the fabric of this universe. And it's a real thing. You know, this isn't fairytale stuff. Scholars study this. This is one of the traditions in Tibetan Buddhism, like I've been saying, is based on Therama, on the hidden treasure tradition. So in this talk I gave a couple years ago, I point out that quantum physics is a modern-day analog to a Therama, that it's a hidden treasure that we have literally dreamed up into the world

and dreamed up into our mind to help us to remember who who we are to help us to like unlock our creative genius to help us to recognize the dreamlike nature because quantum physics has proven you see the thing about quantum physics it's very controversial all all the physicists are like arguing what does it mean how do we interpret it but one thing that nobody argues about is that it's the greatest discovery ever in all of history in the realm of science and what i'm pointing out is that quantum physics is revealing to us it's showing us it's proving the dreamlike nature this isn't in a metaphorical sense that it's like a dream this is a dream this is nothing other than a collectively shared dream that we're dreaming up together.

And because we're unconscious, we've dreamed up Huatico to potentially destroy us. But encoded, but then the question is, how come we're doing that? How come we're destroying ourselves? And I point out that encoded in the process of destroying ourselves, we're teaching ourselves how to not destroy ourselves, which we clearly haven't learned, or we wouldn't be destroying ourselves, we're teaching ourselves how to not destroy ourselves, which we clearly haven't learned, or we wouldn't be destroying ourselves. The point is encoded in the pathology in what he go is the medicine. Okay. And quantum physics is showing us this. It's a hidden treasure. It's a modern day analog to a terramo to a hidden treasure. And and I'm just pointing out yet it's

showing us our incredible creative genius. It's showing us the dreamlike nature. It's introducing us to who we are, that we don't exist as a separate self. Because what Tico in essence is a misidentification of who we think we are. If we think we're an ego and a separate self, well, that means that then other people are separate from us. And then we're all like separate from each other. And we reinforce that particular spell on each other. And being a dream, we then invoke all the evidence confirming our misguided perspective. And what we've done, we've tricked ourselves, we've hypnotized ourselves out of our own minds. And like this really good way of understanding this, just imagine being in a night dream

and imagine whatever you're seeing, the dream, you know, being just a reflection of your mind, just reflects it back. Well, you know, if you're holding a viewpoint in the dream, right, you're having a night dream. If you're holding a viewpoint in the dream that the, you're having a night dream. If you're holding a viewpoint in the dream, that the dream is objective, that it's separate from you, the dream being a reflection of your mind has no choice but to reflect back and give you all the evidence confirming your viewpoint that, you know, that it is separate and objective. And then now you have all the evidence

proving your viewpoint. So you become even more entrenched in your objective. And then now you have all the evidence proving your viewpoint. So you become even more entrenched in your viewpoint. And the more entrenched in your viewpoint of seeing the dream is objective, the dream world is objective, the more than the dream will supply the evidence confirming it's a feedback loop that self generates whose origin is our own mind. That's an example that we were using our genius, our collective genius against us in a way that's killing us. What my whole work is pointing at is trying to flood light on this process, which is to be found within our minds. And the result is we then actually connect with our incredible creative power. It seems like the ultimate mindfuck, you talk

about the feedback loop and the way nature or the external mirrors are internal. I think Buddha talked about the six realms of consciousness with the hell realm actually existing. And I think many people who have had their walk in the fire, the dark night of the soul can fully appreciate that heaven and hell are lived experiences here on earth and are not that far away from us, depending on how far up or down the ladder we are in our own understanding of reality. It certainly felt like I lived through hell for 17 days. And then thankfully was snapped out of it, thanks to Paul Cech. And of course, being able to take the deep dive into dispelling Wetiko. If what we're up against is 400 years plus of scientific materialism saying that we are separate, saying that there is an objective world to study and an objective universe that exists without our observation, without our awareness.

We're up against modern science. We're up against modern science. We're up against modern religion, which teaches of a separate God. We're up against the morphic resonance of the collective consciousness that humanity has all agreed upon due to our indoctrination. If salvation lies in understanding

the oneness of all of creation and the one song universe that we live in as one being. How far of an uphill battle do you think we have right now in coming to that understanding? Well, I want to say, so there's definitely, we have work to do. There's no doubt about that, but be careful about the power of our words. How do you make a word? You spell it. We're always casting spells by the way we language our experience. And if we say, oh, it's really, really hard to wake up, for example, well, then we're instantaneously going to evoke a universe that's going to confirm to us that it's really,

really hard to wake up by the power of our words. And so I just want to invoke quantum physics to contempl really hard to wake up by the power of our words and so i i just want to invoke quantum physics to contemplate you know how to answer your question because quantum physics one of the things it says um is that um before so you have these things called quantum entities which you see because quantum physics is trying to understand the real uh microstructure the microstructure the building blocks of this universe so and you know and um and then it didn't find anything physical actually at the bottom it found consciousness but there are these things called quantum entities that exist in a state of potentiality in every and any possible state they could ever exist in before they're actually

observed and at the moment of observation they actualize into a particular manifestation and all the other possibilities they vaporize into parallel worlds as if they never existed and so what this means is mind-blowing, because even if one of those possibilities of that quantum entity, before it's observed, is highly, ridiculously unlikely, quantum physics is saying, oh, but that could be the one that manifests this very next moment. Okay. So to connect this to the real world, the idea that humanity might actually awaken in time, you know, to avert this catastrophe, these multiple catastrophes that we're creating that according to quantum physics is within the realm of possibility.

And if we're not thinking that, if we're caught by pessimism and despair, well then, you know, it's going to become a self-fulfilling prophecy. If we see the world pessimistically, we're going to attract all the evidence confirming our pessimism in a mind-generated feedback loop, and then we're part of the problem, but not part of the solution. But as soon as we begin to realize, oh, wow, you know, that it's within the realm of possibility for a sufficient number, whether you talk about the hundredth monkey phenomena, the Bible talks about 144,000, just a critical mass of people, you know, in the collective unconscious to have realization, you know, of whatever, of our nature, of the dreamlike nature, of Huatico, of the shadow, however you would

describe it. But once there's a sufficient number of people who have that realization, then we can awaken. And that quantum physics is saying that's absolutely in the realm of possibility. And if you're not thinking that, then what are you thinking? And one other thing too, a beautiful metaphor to explain this. In the collective works, Jung talks about that the way symbols actually manifest in the unconscious. He uses the metaphor of like when you have a glass of water and you dissolve these grains of sugar into the water they'll just dissolve and dissolve and dissolve and then it reaches the saturation point and you add one more grain of sugar in that water and a crystal manifests and he's saying that's the way a symbol manifests in the unconscious that helps us to get back in balance. And the point is, any one of us having realization of whatever,

you know, what I'm talking about now, the dreamlike nature, the quantum nature, Watiko, owning our shadow, however you characterize it, that could be the grain of sugar that catalyzes a global awakening in the collective unconscious of humanity. And that's true. That's a real possibility. And that inspires incredible hope. Absolutely. Yeah, I'd love, and I'd forgotten that analogy of the crystallization. I think that's a beautiful symbol that a lot of people can grasp. I've actually had, it was, I think, a year to the date before my experience with the darkness, a vision that quite a few people who practice with plant medicines have had of a global awakening. And it was before, of course, prior to

lockdowns and all the craziness that's transpired over the last year. But it was a visceral experience that was annoying. And the more I dream into that, the more possible it feels. So I don't want to, of course, come across and use the word magic or cast a spell of pessimism when it comes to that. But if we are all, if this is co-arising within all of us, the propelling of consciousness

is what seems to be necessary. And of course, there's many avenues through, and you can't place any one importance on a singular path. I'm sure even in everything that you've mentioned now, from Buddhism to Chögyam Trungpa Rinpoche to Carl Jung and all the different avenues that you sought and still having your dark night of the soul as a big catalyst for that awakening.

There are many, many paths that lead us, as a big catalyst for that awakening. There, there are many, many paths that lead us to our Ascension and to our awakening. But if this is dependently co-arising, the world is locked into fear. What do you think is the best mode of helping people through their fear? Yeah. Well,

it's interesting because you know, yeah, yeah fear once we get hooked by the fear that's where we can be controlled and and that then we then become you know the instrument through which what tico can just have its way with us and act itself out through us and fear is contagious and so one of the things I point out is that particularly since the pandemic, so many people have been saying, wow, this is so like surreal. And I'm like, yeah, exactly. It's so surreal. It's so dreamlike that it's even easier to recognize the dreamlike nature of reality. And when you recognize the dreamlike nature, it dispels fear, you know, because you've seen through the separate self. Because when you see, if we're identified

with a separate self, all of a sudden, then I'm in here in my skin encapsulated ego, and then there's other, you know, then there's others. And as soon as there's others fear arises right but when i have the realization that oh i'm actually you know interconnected with with everybody and with everything that there's no separation that's just to recognize the nature of our situation that's always the case but recognizing that really can dispel fear and then then, you know, you see, because like I was saying, it's as soon as we get hooked by fear, that's why the mainstream media, you know, all the organs of propaganda, they're just, you know, cultivating fear all over the place. And then, you know, and it becomes contagious. And like, you know, I'm pointing

out that the coronavirus, the actual physical COVID-19 is a lower level emanation of the higher dimensional Watiko virus of the mind, because the coronavirus isn't just physical. no well take a look it has i in my next book i point out it has like a whole subtle body like as soon as it came into the world it um you know just look at how it affected it shut down economies it shut down governments it we weren't allowed to like leave our houses it changed the way we thought the way we dreamed what we wore all of that is the subtle body of the coronavirus, you know, and you begin to realize, yeah, all of those effects on our behavior and on our life were mediated through the psyche. Yeah, and that's the arena of Huatico, because you see, the thing about the mind virus, it's showing us and proving to us, you know, the profound importance that the human psyche plays in our experience. And to the extent we're asleep to that, that's the materialistic spell of thinking, oh, no, consciousness doesn't affect anything.

And this is just a material world. And we're just separate from it. No, that's an expression of being infected by Watiko. And so, like I'm pointing at Watiko, it's literally showing us the incredible importance of the psyche in the creation of our world and the creation of our experience of ourselves and of our world. And, you know, to see that actually can really help to dispel fear. Okay. So that would be my short answer. I love that. I think one of the things that has helped me is the realization that in moving out of scientific materialism, Big Bang Theory, everything's on gears like a

ticking clock that's just been set in motion and the wheels are set in motion and understanding time is not linear, but circular. And moving into this quantum nature that we as co-creators get to change our reality in the never ending now for always. So it's so empowering to understand that. And clearly, I don't think we've mastered that yet because we haven't seen a whole lot change. Maybe some of the people in Texas have started to shift

their reality and Florida and other places that have in particular become a little bit more sane about how to go about life in general. But I'm know, what are some of the things, I know we're on very short time here with you. I just want to dive in. I know you've been coaching people for a very long time. And what are some of the ways in which you help people to reconnect to a deeper understanding? Obviously you've written many books. You have two more coming out, but in coaching people, what are some of the ways that you help point people in the direction of their knowing? Yeah, no, I appreciate that. And the thing is, you know, when I, when I connect with people, you know, I, I'm always interested. I'm kind of like a heat seeking

missile and then I go, I always find myself right to the story that people tell themselves that keeps them small. And we've all internalized, because the way abuse works is that, you know, something will get enacted in our life and our external in the world. And then, you know, that'll be abusive or traumatic or wounding. But then typically we internalize that and the abuser exit states left

and then we become our own control system. We then enact the abuse on ourselves, you know, and that's in a way just a description of being traumatized you know we all have ptsd and you know the whole like being having trauma it's totally related to what tico and being addicted you know what tico bug is at the bottom of both of those and so on the one hand, I try to shed light on the internalized story, because the essence of abuse that I found is that for us to express ourselves, that it's not safe. It's like this dangerous situation. And we've internalized that, you know, that sort of control structure in our mind. So then we split off from our voice, from our inner voice. And so in essence, the real medicine, invariably with everybody that I get to,

is finding, is helping them to connect with their creative spirit because that's our nature. We're made in the image of our creator. We are creative beings. And to the out that that's an expression of their unbelievably, you know, divine creativity, but it's being used against them. So the idea being when any of us connect, I know for me, if I didn't find my voice, my inner voice, you know, and with my books and my writing and, you know, and teaching and helping people, I would have been in deep trouble, you know, because as an example, for a number of

years after the abuse from my father in psychiatry, I can only describe, I was so in trauma, I can only describe what happened in a couple of sentences. And then when I began to heal, when I found my voice, I wrote a 600 page book on my process of, you know, wounding and abuse and trauma. Um, you know, because I found my you know and it's it's really interesting when you hook up with other people who are also plugged into being creative you know it's not a competition type of thing but it becomes it becomes contagious when you hang out with somebody who's really like you know i think people they they like hanging out with me because I'm just a very, you know, very creative person. And I think it just like activates other people's creativity, like the unconscious part of them that's creative.

It can recognize the creativity coming through me. And then, you know, it's, you know, then it just activates their own creative process but the point is is that there is a way of being together in community the sangha of the buddhism in buddhism the the you know the the buddha dharma sangha uh the jewel the three jewels the teacher the teaching in the community and the sangha that's the community that the the Buddha even said, don't hang out with fools. When you hang out with people who are really asleep, who are not doing their work, it rubs off on you. But when you hang out with people who are really doing their work, you know, who are

really deepening their realization of the dreamlike nature, you know, who are like actively expressing their creative spirit, that becomes like a contagious, that's the virus, a positive virus that can really activate all of us. And I just want to say too, as we get close to needing to close, you know, one of like when people ask me, oh, how do I recognize the dream like nature and wake up and dispel what T go, one of the things that I always get to is to cultivate compassion, you know, and, and not just for, you know, yeah, for everyone, but including yourself, you know, there are sometimes maybe all the times it's ourself. That's the hardest to generate the compassion for, but the compassion, true compassion,

which comes out of the realization of the dreamlike nature of that we're not separate, that's the Watiko dissolver par excellence. And so to the extent that we can really just, you know, and it's not something that you ever get to the end of it, even His Holiness Dalai Lama, he's always talking about, oh, I'm always increasing my altruism. I'm always expanding my compassion, you know. And it's really, you know, that good heart. In Buddhism, it's called bodhicitta, the precious bodhicitta. And it's the thing that you have to start with whenever you do any practice. When you're a beginner, you have to cultivate the good heart, bodhicitta. And then when you finally become enlightened, the fruit, the result you get is bodhicitta. That's really interesting that it's

the same thing at the beginning and the end of the path in Buddhism. And that bodhicitta, it's called precious. It's sacred. That's the good heart. That's the heart filled with compassion. And by doing that, it actually, it activates your creative spirit. It heals your do-wa-ti-ko that's in you. And so, you know, I'm just glad that I'm remembering to talk about both being creative and having that, you know, that real compassion, both for yourself and for all beings. That creates the feel. That creates the circumstance. When enough of us do that and connect with each other, we can change the dream. We can, you know, change the waking dream.

And that's to actually discover we can actually, in a participatory way, step into our own evolution and to help each other to wake up. And that's what this is all about, you know. And just one final thing. It's like, you know, we're having a recurring dream. And when you don't get the message in a recurring dream, the dream just amplifies its message until you get it. And like, you know, the evil and the madness is just getting amplified more and more and more. And it's like, we've been here before. It's like we've had this dream before maybe billions of times we have dreamed up a circumstance, you know, we're on like something

like planet Earth, and we're like in the process of destroying ourselves. And then we destroy ourselves. And then it takes billions of years, which in dream time is no time at all to get right back to this place. And then here we are once again. And my prayer is at this time that sufficient number of us can recognize what's available to us. We have everything we need. And instead of just destroying ourselves, we can avert the catastrophe and we can dream ourselves awake. And that, in essence, is what my work is about and that's what all that's what this whole drama that we're playing out is about incredible paul well i know you got to run where can people find you online okay well they can go to my website um

awaken in the dream.com and when you go to to the website there's just a ton of free articles because this is you know this information i just want people um you know to um to have access to and then yeah people can you know they can you know whatever get you know get sessions with me or buy my books but it's not monetized. There's tons of interviews like this and, and talks I give, and I just want to get this stuff out. Um, so A-W-A-K-E-N in the dream.com awaken in the dream.com. Thank you so much, Paul. We'll do it again after we get to, uh, some of your next books. I look forward to them. Thank you, brother. Totally. I just want to thank you so much.ul we'll do it again after we get to uh some of your next books i look forward to them thank you brother totally i just want to thank you so much really thank you yeah absolutely Thank you.