Kyle Kingsbury Podcast - #204 Stefanos Sifandos

Episode Date: June 16, 2021

You guys know I’m not one to shy away from a good cry, and sitting with Stefanos cracked me(us) open. This one was such a pleasure and one of my favorite conversations of recent. I’m so grateful to be able to share these with y’all. All love fam. Connect with Stefanos:   Website: stefanossifandos.com  Instagram: @stefanossifandos  Facebook: Stefanos Sifandos - Relationship Alchemist  Twitter: @stefsifandos  YouTube: Stefanos Sifandos  Sponsors:   Sovereignty Head to https://sovereignty.co/kyle/ to grab my favorite CGN/ Nootropic. There is nothing like this product for energy and cognitive function! Go grab their reformulated flagship product PURPOSE+ and use codeword “KKP” for 20% off. Organifi Go to organifi.com/kkp for some Green Juice, it’s my favorite way to easily get the most potent blend of high vibration fruits, veggies and other goodies into your diet! Click that link and use code “KKP” at checkout for 20% off your order! Biohm Health Find out the Micro/Micobiome of your gut by going to guttesting.com/  and use code “KKP” for 20% your test. Connect with Kyle:   Instagram: @livingwiththekingsburys   Youtube: Kyle Kingbury Podcast  Kyles website: www.kingsbu.com    Like and subscribe to the podcast anywhere you can find podcasts. Leave a 5-star review and let me know what resonates or doesn’t.

Welcome back, everybody. This was one of my favorite podcasts of the year, long time coming, Stephanos Sifondos. I think I got that right. I call him Steph or Stephanos, but he is somebody I've been tracking for a while. We get into our history a little bit more on the podcast, so I'm not gonna just jibber jabber away

talking about all that. But every now and then, and I'm sure it happens more or less for all of us, but there's a moment where you meet somebody and you just know like, okay, there's something here and there's something I want to know more. I want to know more, or I really like this guy. What's the deal with this guy? And I've always felt that way with Stephanos. And it's been awesome because he, to me, was like Christine Hassler's partner. That's how I knew him because I knew Christine. And so I was like, oh, who did Christine Hassler allow into her life?

Kind of a feel and vibe. And this guy's got so much medicine. Just a fantastic human being who has been through a lot and done a lot of work and has one of the most beautiful stories that I've ever heard. And I really just enjoyed every second of this. I know you guys are going to dig this one, support the show by buying some wonderful items from our sponsors, because these guys make the show possible. We are brought to you by sovereignty. Sovereignty is a company that has reformulated their old supplement purpose

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We're in, right from the jump, brother. I like to fuck around. I'm not pressed for time, but I want to get all the time that I can with you, brother. Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely. It's been a minute. Yeah. Let's just take It's been a minute. Let's just take it back to the beginning. Tell me about your life growing up. You're not from the States. No, no, clearly not.

I'm definitely not from Arkansas. The accent's not from the South. I grew up in Australia and, hence the accent, and Greece. So the first few years of my life, I was in Greece. So what happened was I was born in Australia. My dad's Greek, mum's Italian. Dad wanted to go back to Greece, miss his family. He'd left when he was like, I think 2021. He, after the, 22 maybe actually, after the military, he went, got a boat to Australia many years ago. He's in, he's nearly 80 now. And went to Sydney and he had a cousin there and just made his way to Western Australia. And then many years later, obviously, met my mum.

And he just wanted to go back to miss his family. So we went back to Greece. I was a little baby and he tried to make it work. It was very hard in Greece. I mean, it's super hard now and it was super hard back then economically. It's just difficult. And so we stayed there for a few years. My first language was Greek.

I didn't speak English until I was – I had to go to pre-language when we came back to Australia when I was like five or six. And that was interesting for me because I love my cousins. I love my family in Greece and I really miss them. And when we came back to Australia, I had my mum's parents, my grandparents. I love them. I felt very displaced.

It was very difficult. And then coming back into Australian culture, my grandparents. I love them. I felt very displaced. It was very difficult. And then coming back into Australian culture, I couldn't speak the language. I couldn't speak English very well. So that was tough as well. How old were you then? About five or six. Coming back, yeah.

That's a hard age too. I felt very, I remember being, you know, not to talk about it. There were good times as well. Like I had great times too. A lot of painful times, but a lot of great times. But I remember a lot being in the corner a lot by myself, like as a kid in school, in preschool, in pre-language, just playing by myself, eating food by myself. It was really difficult to connect with people. Now it's not an issue. It's interesting, you know,

our voids become our values, right? Like I struggled to make connection with people and now it's really not a struggle. It's something that I thrive in and I love it. And I sort of need it in my life, right? Yeah, absolutely. I think we all need it. It's interesting to see, you know, there's something Anahata talks about,

like who was your greatest teacher, you know? And it's not the person that you always think of or what was your greatest teaching given, you know, as a thing, rather than, you know, a specific event or a person, you know, it could be anything, but it's to look at that fully and see like, sometimes it's the person who taught you the most about what not to do in life. It's not just who taught you the most good stuff, right? And then when we see it like that,

we can begin to think that, oh, okay, this thing that was really hard on me ended up giving me some sort of superpower. And clearly you have no trouble speaking to people. And I don't mean just speaking to people, but communicating deeply to someone. And I had firsthand experience with that with you at Fit for Service last year. And I definitely want to get there. But I want to bridge this gap. Tell me about the trajectory of your life. You moved back to Australia. What was life like as you started to integrate there? And where did that lead you education-wise?

Because you wear many hats. I feel like I'm looking in a mirror right now. The broad spectrum of knowledge and wisdom that you carry is going to be hard to cover in an hour and a half. So start to piece some of that together. Yeah, for sure. So going off that alone piece and isolation piece, I really ostracized myself.

And what happened, what coupled that was the family life. My mom and dad were very unhappy. They were fighting all the time. I grew up in a very violent, very volatile, just intense environment. And so I hit a lot. And so that kid in the corner eating by himself at school was really a reflection of me hiding under my bed or being in the corner at home as well, and not really feeling like I fit in anywhere. And so, and I'm painting that picture for you because it will help you understand how I then progressed and the fascinations that I had as a kid. As a kid growing up, I would sit and watch TV with my grandparents. We lived with my

grandparents for a few years, my mum's parents, right? Because my dad was building a house and my mum and dad were building a house and we just stayed there. It made sense. And you know, Italian Greeks, sort of families always together, right? And I would spend time watching TV with my grandparents and it felt pretty safe. It was like a refuge for me. That and eating food. Food's been a crux for me and I'm a foodie and it's been a, oh fuck man, it's been a crux in my life, let me tell you. But also that, like my grandmother would make awesome food and it just felt safe. You know, there's moments of reprieve that I would have.

And I remember as a kid, I would then bring food to my school to give food to the kids to try and make friends. You know, like it was that level of I felt so alone, but I needed the connection. I missed what I had with my cousins and my family because my dad had seven brothers and sisters. So a lot of kids, you know, but I had the connection. I missed what I had with my cousins and my family because my dad had seven brothers and sisters. So a lot of kids, you know, but I had no one. It's probably easier to communicate with and all that

just because of the blood relationship. And that too, yeah, that closeness, right? And family was a really, really big thing. And it still is. But being more isolated in Australia, that's the feeling that I had, right? And so when I was a little kid, we'd watch TV and I'd watch National Geographic and I'd watch, my grandparents would just watch whatever, right?

Documentaries. But I remember seeing the United Nations and I remember piecing things together and asking questions. I was a very curious kid, right? Super curious kid. And I remember saying, who's that? And I can't remember if it was Kofi Annan back then. I'm pretty sure it was, or maybe a person before him,

but he was a United Nations Secretary General. And I would say to my mum, I want to be like him because I want to help all the kids that don't have food and all the kids that are hurting and are troubled. Like that was the vision that I had as a kid. As I grew up, I figured geopolitically, United Nations isn't maybe the best organisation to be part of. But, you know, whatever, that was the intention that I had. And so that drove a lot. I figured geopolitically United Nations isn't maybe the best organisation to be part of.

But, you know, whatever, that was the intention that I had. And so that drove a lot. That coupled with, you know, the pain and the violence that I was experiencing as a kid, you know, produced a lot of codependence in me. It produced a lot of insecurity in me, produced enmeshment in me. It produced me wanting to, you know, and I say this, but I look back now with a little bit of shame, trying to manipulate people to be my friend because I didn't have that, right? At primary

school. So primary school, what's that here? Like I'm up to age 12, right? Like elementary school. Elementary school, yeah. And I was super detached. I mean, kids were having sex, man, in age 10, 11, 12, my primary school, and I was blowing away. I mean, I didn't have sex, we can get there, but I didn't have sex until I was 17. Same. Same. Yeah. Look at that.

Yeah. And I didn't, I didn't, I masturbated after I had sex. Oh, I was beaten off around the clock six times a day. When I'd walk, I lived close to school. I'd walk home during high school and jerk off twice before, during the lunch hour, twice in an hour and get back. That's how fucking rocket ship I was. I couldn't hold it together.

I started late. I started late. I started late. But once I started, fuck, did I go for it? Like I went for every, all of it. I mean, my first sexual experience

was with a prostitute. My friend took me. I mean, it was, there's. He was like, you're late to the party. I'm very late.

You gotta have skin in the game. Yeah, I was very late to the party, you know, based on what I was experiencing. So then sort of hit high school and things started to change. I was overweight as well as a kid. And I just, again, just very embarrassed, you know, based on what I was experiencing. So then sort of hit high school and things started to change. I was overweight as well as a kid and I just, again,

just very embarrassed, very shy, very shameful. These old patterns I was creating and also developed to protect myself as a kid started changing in high school, you know, hormones, puberty. And I was very angry. I was a very angry kid but all that anger was like down here, right? And again, that curiosity still permeated my existence. I was still curious about things, how people function,

why people did what they did, why do people hurt people, why can't people like me, why can't I just fit in? All these big questions, existential. I didn't know what they were existential back then, but these big questions, right? And I was just stuck there. But hit high school, I did something, I started playing a little soccer and started losing a little weight,

but did something called the milk run. And so I'd be on the back of a truck delivering orange juice and eggs and milk to people in the neighborhood, right? I didn't do that anymore so much, but we used to do that back then. And I lost weight because I was jumping on and off a track, running. I started feeling a little more confident. I started hitting the gym, started really getting into fitness more. So I started getting more confidence, and as I became more confident, I also started to let that anger out, but I didn't let it out in healthy ways. So I'd be drinking.

I'd be fighting. I started… You became a real Aussie. Very much so. I was actually talking to someone yesterday, a client of mine yesterday, and he was talking to a friend of his who's actually Australian and left Australia because of the fight culture and drink culture.

Then he just said it's too much for him. And I was like, yeah, shit, that's what it was like. That's what it is like. You just go out, you sink piss, which is alcohol, and you just fucking fight. You fight or you fuck, that's it. Or you're too paralytic to do either. But that's what you would do in Australia.

It was crazy, man. I don't know. That culture just, it's so detached. So I was doing a lot of that. Yeah, I haven't been to Australia yet. I want to go. And I've had a lot of buddies. One of my longtime friends was a training partner of mine

at American Kickboxing Academy from Australia. Great, great guy, Dennis. But I did spend some time in Thailand and that's just a hop, skip and a jump away from Australia. So there was a ton of Aussies there. And it was funny, I think George W. Bush, and I don't want to derail you, I want to circle back. Yeah, that's for real.

But W. was in presidency in the US. And so I'd meet girls and I'm out there with my dad, and he's all about it. He's super cool. And he brought me out there to train when I first got in the UFC. And the second, I'd see smiles and eyes. And the second I'd open my mouth,

they'd be like, oh, American. And I'd be like, fuck, dude. But then I'd hear the Aussies and they'd just be shit-faced on Bangla Road, way more obnoxious than me. And I'm like, God, if Americans get a bad rap, and I was like, oh, it's our president. Okay.

Aussies aren't fucking up the world right now. We are. No. But it was funny. And then I'd see all these fights in the streets and I'm like, guys, you got a fucking five-minute taxi ride and you can actually learn how to fight with some of the best guys on the planet right here.

It's embedded in their culture. But they would rather get drunk and do it in the streets and and that and and aussie culture aussie drinking culture is very disrespectful as well super disrespectful and it's all clicky too like you'd it's not different to you man it's not different to the indian caste system it's not different to the world that we live in it's cliques and and and castes and groups. And, you know, you'd have the Australians and you'd have the Italians and you'd have the

Portuguese and you'd have the, the, the Spanish and everyone's just, everyone against each other. And everyone just wants to fight and prove how good they are. And not only because everyone's wounded, everyone has daddy issues or everyone has a broken, not everyone,

but so many of us have come from broken families or repressed pain that hasn't been healthily transmuted into something different, which was me, right? Just so abrasive, so aggressive, so fresh. I always wanted to fight, whether it was verbally, prove my point, because I'd been disempowered for so long. I'd been suppressed for so long, largely by my father and my mother and that dynamic, right? That I just wanted to make sure everyone knew what I had to say mattered. I think I do it in – I hope I do it in a different way now, you know, as a 39-year-old man. But back then it was just I didn't give a fuck what anyone thought

and my way was the only way and that's all that mattered. And you can imagine the tension that I had in my life that I was living with, constant, constant impatience and frustration and abrasiveness and just not happy, not happy in my skin. Even though I was doing the things, I was training, I was building up my body, I was, you know, I stayed away from drugs. I drink a lot, but I stayed away from drugs. And well, I stayed away from taking drugs. I didn't stay away from being in certain groups of people that would do other things with drugs

and being part of that culture as well and gangs and just stupid things because I was insecure and I just wanted to wear the mask to make sure that everyone knew that I was tougher than what I was. But inside I was scared, man. Super scared.

Yeah. Yeah, I got a lot of mirroring here listening to you right now. I had a football coach that used to tell me, or he'd yell it across the field to me anytime I'd be chatting to the team, loud mouth, getting my fucking point across, my way or the highway, that kind of shit.

He'd say, Kingsbury, get off your fucking soapbox. I'm like, what is that? I finally asked him, what does that mean? And he's like, people used to jump on a soapbox back in the town square and yell at everybody, get your paper or whatever they had to get across, you know, but it was, it was, it's funny because I have a podcast now, but, uh, but the intention is different. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. So you continue on when you start to get a sense of self-reflection? Like who was your first mentor? Who was your first guidepost into some of the work that you're into

now? I think my first real mentor was, so I spent a lot of time escaping in my teens as well, whether it was through fighting or whether it's through alcohol or whether it's through just ignoring what my needs were, you know, not actually paying attention to my fear. But I did a lot of ignoring. And so I think I missed a lot growing up. You know, I missed a lot as a teenager that I didn't address and I also escaped a lot. And so when I was 19, I thought to myself, I'm either going to go to the military because, again, I've got to prove myself. And I'm not going to just go to the military. I'm going to try and be an SAS special operative or I'm going to be,

you know, in the commando unit or something, some spec ops thing, right? I looked at that and I looked at do I go to the military now or do I go try and work on a cruise ship and travel the world? But, well, travelling the world, having sex, doing all those things was probably a little more appealing. And again, I didn't exactly have a growth mindset back then. And so it was the, oh, the quick fix, let's go to a deeper distraction. It's going to also give me a lot of pleasure.

So it was still tough because I'm, you know, one way ticket, I had to work it all out myself and I did. And within a few weeks, I got a job on a cruise, on a cruise boat. Now, why am I telling you that? A couple of reasons. It definitely helped me mature a lot more. But I met, I really met my mentor then. And my first mentor, and his name was James Medithil Cherian. And he was an Ayurvedic master. He was a Vedian, right? And he'd been studying for at least 30 years. So I was working on the cruise ship. I was managing the gym because I love training.

And I thought, well, I don't want to do things I don't like. So I may as well, you know, get my qualifications in gym instruction and fitness and all that stuff. So that would get me on the boats as well. And massage too. So I was a massage therapist. So I worked in the spa. And he came in and he would work six months of the year on the

boat and six months he would plow his rice fields, basically like a half an acre to an acre of just rice fields. Or normally if he's not on the cruise ships, he'd be traveling around India, going to these exclusive resorts and then giving his medicine and it's medicine. And so I was fascinated by him and I was always fascinated by ancient culture, whether it be Greek, Mesopotamian culture, Indian culture specifically. This is my first tattoo, the Sanskrit here. So meeting him, I was blown away.

And he was, I was, I mean, 1920, he was maybe 55 or something then. So he wasn't super old or anything, but he was mature and he just taught me a lot. He taught me a lot about life. He taught me a lot about ancient medicine and culture and the Hindu culture and his life back in India and his family. And just I really looked up to him.

And he was a father figure that I never had. I could relate to him in a different way. And the bonus thing was, I mean, I don't even know how big, maybe four of these tables was the size of our room. We bunked together as well. And so we'd be massaging for 12 hours a day and then we'd come back to the room and he'd teach me more things. I was very fascinating, very fascinating. And I was very, I felt very blessed. And that's where I started moving more into humility because he showed me that, he showed me that way that it doesn't have to be so fucking aggressive

and so out there. I can be more inward. You know, he taught me more how to meditate. He taught me, you know, I'd started yoga before then. I played with it. But he taught me the intellectual and the spiritual principles of yoga as well. It was just an amazing couple of years of my life and I'll never forget him and I'll always remember.

And we've spoken since, by the way. It was a few years ago. We jumped on a Zoom call because his nephew got him the job on the cruise ship, so his nephew's a little more savvy. And we jumped on a Zoom call. Man, I just cried the whole time. I feel like crying now. I could just, yeah, he's just, I haven't thought about him for a long time.

I don't want to say he saved me, but he helped restore a part of my soul that had been missing for a very long time. And he brought a calmness into my life that I didn't experience, that I never experienced because I was always alert. I was always very hypervigilant. And I think that's some of the tears. It's not just missing him and thinking about him. It's the gifts that he gave me that if I wasn't here right now talking about this, I don't think I'd actually acknowledge it because it's the first time I'm hearing myself say it and think it, is that peace that he helped, it's like a soul retrieval

in shamanistic practices, right? It's that he helped me retrieve a part of my soul that I'd really, I'd given away because I was just in so much fear and so much repression. And I mean, that's the biggest gift that he gave me. So when you asked me who my first mentor was, I mean, yeah, him. Yeah, brother. That's big. Yeah. So you were on this cruise for a couple of years. A couple of years, yeah. I had to come back. I didn't have to come back, but it's interesting how life works out. You know, I was doing really well in the cruise ship

and, you know, being Greek and being a Greek national as well. It was a Greek cruise ship and there's a lot of politics in Greece. There's a lot of hierarchy and ego in Greek culture, particularly in Greek men. They have a lot of arrogance around, you know,

what they've contributed or what the culture has contributed to Western civilisation and so forth. And with that, and back then I was just a young kid and, you know, I got a lot of attention and I was just very lively. And James, he helped bring that liveliness even more out of me as well. And some of the captains, they didn't like me and probably rightly so or wrongly so, a combination of both, and they kicked me off the ship. And I was about to go on another ship.

It wasn't an issue because… Lucky you can't fire me. I quit. I got another job. It's better. Yeah, that's exactly right. Yeah, you know, it's a dime a dozen. With that experience, anyone will take you.

And the guy that actually I worked for that ran the spa, him and I are still close. We spoke the other day. You know, interesting. I've seen him a handful of times, maybe two or three times since I was 21 and we still talk like it was, you know, just yesterday. I love that. I fucking – I love that and I'm not ignorant to the fact

that so many men don't have that as a side note, don't have that male connection, you know. And so I'm very grateful for that. And I spoke to him the other day. We were talking about – we were talking about watches and we were just talking about coming back to Athens. I spoke to him the other day We're talking about watches And we're just talking about coming back to Athens I want to try and get back there in the next couple of months So I get kicked off

But what I didn't tell you was that You know, my brother Younger brother, five years You know, he went a different direction And he hit drugs pretty hard Like really hard From a very young age 10, 11 years old.

And, you know, that was a very difficult family situation as well. My brother and I would be punching on, you don't do that with your family. Like it's just, it sucks. He was high on drugs all the time. He was abusive to my parents. My parents were abusive to him. And it was just this fucking cesspool of abuse, you know.

And so part of me getting away was getting away from that shit. Like I moved out of home early because we were just fighting all the time and I was making things worse because I just wouldn't stand for what he was doing, you know. And my mum said, look, it's getting worse. Can you come back? We need you. And, you know, the enmeshment with my mum and the entanglement was like,

oh, I've got to make my mum happy and maybe it's time I come back. I miss my friends. It's been a couple of years. So, you know, I made all the reasons or excuses and I went back. And I was a really, I felt like I was a Zen monk, right? Coming back, but two, three months in a familiar environment and then it was worse than what I was before. Yeah, it's the old Ram Dass.

If you think you're enlightened, spend a week with your family. Months of the family is a whole different ballgame. I don If you think you're enlightened, spend a week with your family. Oh, shit. Months with the family is a whole different ballgame. I don't even think I could sign up for that right now at 38. I don't think I could spend months with my family at this point.

It was hectic, man. It was hectic. And, you know, side note, I'll fast forward a moment. You know, I'm probably going to cry again, but my brother and I now

have the most amazing relationship. And fuck, I miss him, man, so much. When he comes here to visit, I can't wait for you to meet him. Fuck yeah. Because he's such a good guy and I fucking, I miss him so much, man, so much. And he got, I just try to get him clean so much, but he got clean on himself. He had a very bad trip and he went there and he said, I'm done. And he started taking his life back.

And that was 11, 12 years ago. He's got a beautiful family. I have a niece that I haven't seen yet. So we're very, very connected and close now in all the ways. And, you know, coming back though to the age of 21, took about five, six years or four or five years before he got clean and started making changes. You know, the paranoia that comes with that, the violence, the suppression of emotions, the mistrust, just the difficulty that came with that being in that environment for all of us, right? And it wore us down massively. You know, I remember my dad and always me trying to want to impress my dad consciously

or unconsciously. Oh, it's those people up the road. It's their fault. They'd bring your brother in. Can you get some of your guys and go sort them out? All right, dad. So we go out there and we sort them out and just makes my brother more angry and he just finds new friends or he just goes back there

and he just takes drugs by himself. You know, my dad couldn't see that it was maybe him that had contributed to why my brother was how he was. But sometimes old habits die hard and you can teach an old dog new tricks. I believe that, but the dog needs to want to learn. Yeah. And so whilst I have a healthy relationship with my father now, I'm also under no expectation that he's going to change.

And so I meet him where he's at and I accept that. And there's a piece in that. There's a piece in that. Yeah. That's been a big one for me too. I've, I've, I've come miles with my dad and he's done, you know, all, all the work he's done so much for himself, you know, just like your brother, you can't, you can, uh can lead a horse to water, right? That kind of, that old, that old saying he, I've done ayahuasca with him a couple of times. And what was great though, I mean, those were, those were pretty more than the experience itself was him saying yes to the experience with me. That was, that was the big piece. Cause there wasn't, he didn't quite let himself get to the finish line. You know, every time there was a second

cup offered, he'd throw up his arms at a big X and be like, no, no, I finish line. You know, every time there was a second cup offered, he'd throw up his arms at a big X and be like, no, no, I'm good. You know, and I'd be like, well, are you, you know, are you on the fence here? I don't want to push you one way or the other. I need your consent, but tell me where you're at. You know, and I finally talked him into a second cup

one time when we were down in Panama. And it was really potent Shipibo medicine. And he said he felt like his soul was leaving his body like a balloon. And he's like, I need to get grounded. I need to get grounded. And some, uh, one of our neighbors was like, uh, he's like, Oh, Mia, is this what help? You know, this guy from Switzerland and he rubbed a little peppermint oil and it felt like it just pulled this balloon back down to earth and he felt super grounded and happy. And he was just so much gratitude for that. And then afterwards he was like, fuck, that was my opportunity. And I didn't

say yes, you know, but we, we had a, we had a deep mushroom dive. And, um, I think that that might've been, you know, like I was getting downloads on less medicine because no one heals themselves in one journey. And I want them to be able to come back to this and not just have the rails blown off, but hasn't done medicine with me since, but he has, he did spend, I think a month in Rishikesh with Muji out in India. Yeah. And that was right at the beginning of quarantine last year. So really cool trajectory to see him and to feel him, to feel the peace inside. So yeah, good stuff there.

I remember seeing Muji in India actually, it was a few years ago now. I was seeing him, like it was a day lecture. It was interesting to spend some time with him. It was a few years ago now. I was seeing, like it was a day lecture. It was interesting to spend some time with him. It was a couple of hundred people there. Yeah, how was it? Mix. It was profound. Yeah, and I think that's the, I think that's part of it.

I was reflecting on it now. It was profound and it was a little mediocre. Yeah. But I think that's it. That's the magic, right? It's can you bring the profound into everyday life and treat it as such? Because I had this expectation. I think it was an expectation hangover as my wife,

Christine Hassel, would say, right? It was like, oh, this is Muji. This is going to be fucking epic. What a gift. This is, oh, I'm going to. And it was like, oh, that's it? He wasn't saying anything, anything I didn't know. Yeah.

But did I know it? Was it integrated? I was young back then. Were you living in it? Yeah. Boyd Vardy talks about that in Cathedral of the Wild, taking his dad out for one of those and like just having all the fucking expectations

in the world for his father and hoping to have the rails blown off and then both of them leaving on a plane and he's just hanging his head like, fuck man, that was our shot. It didn't happen. Yeah. But, but what did it happen? Is that what exactly needed to happen is I reflect on that experience now and other experiences where I've been disappointed or, you know, and I remember arguing with one of my closest friends, Joe,

because he was with me. I was arguing with Joe because I wanted it to be profound and Joe was feeling similar to me but I didn't want to own it. Joe was like, hey, it was okay. I said, what's wrong with you? What do you mean it was okay? What do you mean you want to leave early? We should stay here.

This is fucking Muji. I just went off and I was still angry back then. I'm still angry now. But it was a different type of anger now. I think I've got a little more mastery over it. But I wouldn't accept it. But that's the thing. He did say amazing things.

Mooji did express very profound things around the simplicity of life and how to be with each other. But I think I just couldn't accept it. And, you know, I think as humans, we just don't want to accept what is simple. We need this big thing to make it worthy of us actually doing or making a change in our lives. But what if we don't? What if it just needs to be that simple? Oh, what if we just need to actually set our alarm at 6am instead of just sleeping in? What if it's just that? What if it's just that?

Yeah. I remember training right when I got on the Ultimate Fighter, I was training with Noguera and he brought in Machida and Anderson Silva. And like, I didn't even recognize like that, how important that was for me as a fighter, not as a trajectory, but just to be in the presence of masters. And they would drill the same shit over and over again, every fucking day in jujitsu, they were working on guillotines almost exclusively from half guard, full guard, side control, like just, just as escapes and like ways to threaten and get out and back to their feet. And I was like, do you guys do anything else? And he's like, whole body. We got to practice the basics every day. That's what you use. You know? And I was like, really? Like, there's no like fucking flying armbar shit that

you guys are up to. Like the, the, what about that fucking knockout kick with Steven Seagal sitting front row? Like, like that's not basic shit, you know? I mean, it is today, but that's all they do. They do that over and over again, Whether that's on the spiritual level, the physical level, the martial arts level, the mental level, there's always something that is super grounded and practical. And I think the recognition of that is one of the secrets in life. Like to recognize that and to say like, oh, okay, it's not fucking way out here.

It's not going to take, it might take 30 years to master it, but it's still going to take those really simple things to get there. I, it reminds me of something, the elite are elite because they've mastered the basics. And that's something I learned working a lot with spec ops guys in Australia, like the SAS and commands. I ended up not becoming one, but working really closely with them with mindset mindset and PTSI, coming back from war

and helping them recover and so forth. Just drilling the basics, the simple things. That's how they have become elite. And I think obviously that in your early experience, I think you probably, I mean, I don't want to put words in your mouth, but something that you seem to value now and you've learned as well, master the basics. Oh, yeah.

Even with Bear, you know, he's been going to 10th Planet periodically i'm not a drill sergeant he goes a couple days a week for a month and doesn't show up for a month you know i'm not pushing him in any by any means but he'll complain sometimes about like i already know this he says my instead of i i already know this dad i already know this i'm like bear this is stuff you do. I still do it. Like you never stop doing that. You never stop doing the warmup. You never stop doing these basic things because you want to ingrain them so that you're not thinking about it.

You want it to become second nature. And that means doing it every day, even though you already know it. But yeah, that's across the board. I wonder, man, I can't remember where I heard this, but I wonder if, I don't think we do anything long enough consistently enough with enough intention to actually reap the benefit of it i mean what's to say 30 years of meditation every day is actually enough i'm not saying there's

an end point maybe there is maybe there isn't but let's just let's assume there isn't an end point. Maybe there is, maybe there isn't, but let's assume there isn't an end point. We're just talking about infinite growth and evolution and expansion. Is 30 years or 40, 50 years even of meditation, is that enough to get you where you think you need to be or think you need to go think what you need to embody is true for you? I don't know. I would say probably not. There's probably no way to know because your bar gets raised of where you want it to be as you go. I mean, at least, I mean, I don't want to say it should, but it's quite likely that the bar raises on its own because you see where you're at and you know that there's more to go. It's kind of like if you were hiking through fog on a mountain and you think the top's coming and you had charted where the top was and then the fog clears a little bit and you see,

oh, there's just a little more. Oh, there's just a little more. Oh, there's just a little more. False summit, hate that. Well, I don't want to derail you. Talk about life after that. Did you immediately start working with these guys? Did you end up at a university?

Who started to piece together the work that you do now at that point in transitioning with family? So I came back and, you know, applied to, just fascinated with the human mind and behavior. So I applied for university as a mature age student at like 21 years old, 22 years old. That's apparently mature age. And I got in, not sure how, but I got in. I remember now doing the test too. And I studied psychology, so behavioural science, social psychology,

and just really sunk my teeth into that. And it took me a while to do that. I don't know if I got a master's degree as well, but overall it took me like 10 years to get my degrees because I did a lot of part-time work and I would travel a lot. I would go to Europe a lot. I'd go to Asia a lot. New Zealand.

I'd just travel a lot and I'd just defer for a semester and travel and do that. But also while studying, not just university, I was also studying other mind-body modalities like neurolinguistic programming, hypnosis, Psyche K, other counselling methodologies. I worked in men's homeless shelters. I worked, and this is all giving my time as part of my university as well.

I worked in the youth prison systems to really understanding trauma and understanding dysfunctional families because I came from one at a deeper level, right? And at that same time, how I met a lot of these spec ops guys and worked with Olympians and elite fighters such as yourself was I opened up a CrossFit gym with a business partner and we had one of the first CrossFit gyms in the world. It must have been the top 500 or something, so maybe the third or fourth in Australia. Wow.

And so because of that, we really knew, it was about 2006, 2007, it was super new. Everyone wanted to know, oh, what's, you know, the Institute of Sports said, what are you guys doing? What's this CrossFit thing? It was starting to really pick up. And so I think timing by default, we just got a lot of exposure. And I worked with a professional soccer team as well. We took, I went to China with them. I had a lot of amazing experiences, you know, and met some of my

closest friends as well, like working with the special forces guys too. You know, it's just, these guys are elite. I mean, they come with a very different mindset. So it helped refine my tools and help me be a better coach and a better mindset coach and understand the emotional body better and family systems and trauma and post-traumatic stress syndrome and infliction and all of that. But I never was dealing with my stuff. I was still, you know, I was preaching, but I wasn't practicing what I was still, you know, I was preaching, but I wasn't practicing what I was preaching.

But I was becoming somewhat successful, I think, in my life, you know, at least from a status perspective, which was filling up my ego and helping me feel better. And I was also doing meaningful work and I was really helping a lot of everyday people as well just get fit. But I just, I was getting tired of teaching people how to squat, so to speak. You know, like I just, I was getting tired of teaching people how to squat, so to speak. You know, like I just, I wanted more.

So I sold my business in 2012 just to my partner. We didn't get along too well. He was a police officer. Not that I love police officers. It's just that he was just one of those very rigid guys. And I wasn't rigid. Yeah, you were trying to break down the rigidity within yourself and those around you and I'm sure that didn't compliment where you were at.

Yeah, which I didn't appreciate and accept at the time. And he's a really kind-hearted guy as well. But again, I couldn't see that through my own arrogance and defensiveness essentially. That's what it was, you know, my fear. So I didn't appreciate him. So, you know, moved on from that and I tried my stuff. You know, I was still studying. I tried my hand at different things. Like I got involved

in the corporate world and, you know, I also studied sustainability, renewable energy tech as well. Again, back to that UN secretary general, I wanted to make big impact, collective impact. So I studied big systems, macro systems, economic systems. How does renewable energy tech fit into a world that is growing very rapidly? How can it serve humanity in a way from a poverty perspective, but also give, you know, put food on the plates of people that need it? Like all these different ideas, you know. I went to Dubai to the largest renewable energy and sustainability, what's it called, conference in the Middle East. And I had a project there that I tried.

I was just doing all these different things. I was lost, man, just trying to find my place. You know, I felt really lost. And I saw all my friends at that time as well just, I don't want to say being successful but they just found their path and they were content and I was restless, so fucking restless, man. And so I'd just be doing all these different things and being low on money and running up credit card debt and, you know, my relationship sucked. I was in massive amounts of infidelity and cheating

and just being dishonest and being angry, never physically violent but emotionally abusive, you know, just really not honouring myself, not honouring them, you know, pretending to do the inner work but I wasn't because I wouldn't go deep. So it was a lot of years of that, a lot of years of that. What do you think was the turning point? The turning point very distinctly was I was in a relationship and we were together for about three years and I really, I really cared for her and I really loved her, but I was also cheating a lot.

I mean a lot, man, like, you know, prostitution, one night stands, all of that stuff. And when I say a lot, there were times where, it's an arbitrary term, but it was one too many. I was dishonest, full stop, right? And I wouldn't, I wouldn't own what I wanted in the relationship and I projected that on her and she found out that I was cheating and, you know, witnessing her pain firsthand and knowing that I'm not responsible for her pain, but I contributed to that because she could, you know, find out and be happy or whatever. She's responsible for her feelings, but I contributed to that. That was me.

That was on me. That was my dishonesty and the pain that she the pain that just, and it woke me up, man. It shook me up big time. And what it did was a lot of shame came flooding to the surface of my awareness that I'd been suppressing for a very long time and guilt, obviously, and remorse, but shame. And that shame accessed all this repressed trauma that I had forgotten about. And I lost my shit.

I didn't know what to fucking do. And so I sat with myself and I'll tell you two stories. I'll tell you the first one, I sat with myself and I said, I need to do something different. I can't keep living this life. My businesses are failing. One month I'm making lots of money. The next three months I'm dry.

I'm fighting all the time. I don't mean physically fighting. Sort of stopped that by mid-20s, late 20s. But I'm fighting all the time. Everything's difficult. Everything's not a challenge. Everything is uphill, man. And like I'm wearing this badge of honour.

The harder it is and I get through it, look at me, look how good I am. So it's a cry for help still, right? And I said, I either keep going down this path and either end up dying because I would literally just eat myself from within or I can make some changes that are really scary and I don't know what that looks like or where to start but I've got to do something and so I made that decision and I didn't give myself a choice of not to attempt to change and so I stopped working with the business partners I was working with because they were toxic and unhealthy. I gave up my businesses that I had partners I was working with because they were toxic and unhealthy.

I gave up my businesses that I had. I stopped working and I started living on my credit card and I started immersing myself in personal growth. And we chose to stay together, which was uncanny to do that because I ended up telling her everything and everything was a lot. It wasn't, it was a lot. And we ended up staying together still for a few months at least and working through. So I said, I'm going to do anything. I'm going to do everything I can. Let's, let's go all in. No, I went to, we went to counseling. I just, I was spending thousands of bucks a week on, you know, that I didn't have, right. But I wanted to heal. I wanted to shift. I wanted to, and so we were doing it together.

And so there were times where she was very, we were very connected and we were working through it. And most of the time it was very difficult. It was, I can't believe he did this. It was, I mean, she even got violent as well. And now that, and- Well, how do you build back that trust, right? Like that seems like an insurmountable,

especially when there's layers that keep getting dropped of, well, actually, you know, that wasn't the only time. Yeah. And that happened over, over,

over probably a month. It took me that, I didn't have the courage. I was weak, you know, tough exterior, but weak interior. And again,

I would never hit her, but I had restrain her, I had to hold her and our therapist at the time said, look, that can't keep going on and I was surprised because I was, you know, being together, we were both retraining our nervous systems in different ways because we were facing our stuff, like she had her stuff too, right, and I had my stuff and we were facing that instead of running from it and so that was very healing, that in and of itself but I went, you know, spiritual healers, shamans, energy healers, coaches, therapists, counselors, trauma therapists. I was working with everyone, man. Like I went all the way in. And I remember one point I was going so deep that it was getting very dark,

right? And so suicide was coming up. Even when we were sort of together and we weren't together, it was like this, right? And I mean highs and lows within that period after she found out, which was replicating my childhood, right? And eventually we both made the call, we're not doing this anymore. I'm not doing this. I'm done. Like it can't, we just can't keep going like this. But a time before that, and this was the second story I wanted to share with you,

I would spend a lot of time in the ocean. And I was in the water one day and I was just, I was feeling very dense and very, very scared. And at this point, I'd been in it for months of just cycling and circling and drudging up shit, like trauma and pain and fear. I didn't know what to do with it. And I was just sitting in the water crying. I was just crying, man. I was just sobbing and bawling.

And there weren't many people there that day. It wasn't a very nice day, but I'd get in the water, irrespective, raining, hail, shine, whatever. And I said to myself, and I looked up at the heavens and I said to God, I said, I know we don't talk often, but right now I don't know where to go. I don't know where to go. I need something. I need a sign. And I thought to myself, I need to be very specific and I got to trust. I said, if I'm meant to stay

on this path and I'm not meant to end this either with numbing or with suicide, then I need you to show me a dolphin right now. Boom, dolphin. Probably about in feet, it must have been 30 feet away. Not super close, but not that far. And I just started crying more and I thought, okay, I've got to go in more. I've got to go deeper. So at that point, I'd done some plant medicine,

but only after I'd explored myself at a deeper level through familiar states of consciousness, shadow work through without being in a heightened state of consciousness, like an alternative state, right? And then I started going into plant medicine a little more as well, and breath work a lot more, and more therapy and more coaching and counseling and energy work, like really working with undoing a lot of the previous sexual partners that I had and the tethering to that, the unconscious stuff and the emotional work and the family system stuff and really going deep into all of that. And I just progressed.

And there were times still where I would board my house up and I would, you know, engage in my own dark retreat. And I would just, I would fast. I would be, and I was, again, I was so interested in Indian asceticism back then. So I would use a lot of that to access parts of me, my spirituality, my emotions. I couldn't touch any other way. And I spent a lot of time on my own and a lot of time in solitude. At the beginning, it felt like isolation.

I felt really alone again. And I had to relive that and know how to be with that differently to how I was when I was a kid. And then it turned to solitude. I was craving being alone. And that's where I started decoupling myself from all these things in my world, like whether it's my mum or the approval of my father or having to look a certain way

with my friends. I started to let go of that and I started to identify myself as who am I? Like Ramana Maharshi asked this, who are you? Who am I? Like really who am I? Without the bullshit, without, as a trauma was coming out and we'd broken up at that point, I was a massive relief

and I practised celibacy and semen retention and all of that because I wanted to go deeper within, What access do I have within here? Because clearly I've been causing a lot of problems and a lot of pain for myself and others. I've got to go more internal. And so I spent a few years doing that. I nearly went bankrupt. It was tough, but it was necessary.

I had to dissolve the ego, man. My ego was very strong. I mean, it was only I had to dissolve the ego man My ego was very strong I mean it was only a few years ago Literally four years ago Where I was scrubbing toilets and washing cars With a master's degree That was very fucking humbling Because I needed some money

But I didn't want to work Well I did want to work sorry I couldn't even get a job Couldn't get a full time job I even fucked around with my resume And said that I had people in oil and gas that had really high positions, said that I worked with them and I wouldn't even get an interview. And I had the experience, like I knew what I, I just couldn't get, I couldn't get money. So I had to work. My friend had a panel beading shop.

I needed to eat. My friend would pick me up every now and then and say, get in the car, we're going down to Peaches, buy a new, you know, a couple of weeks worth of groceries. Like that was where I was, man. It wasn't that long ago. I was scrubbing toilets. I'm thinking to myself, what the fuck am I doing? I'm scrubbing toilets. You know, those guys pissing and shitting everywhere.

Tradesman, man. Thank you, but fuck. It was, I didn't, but I needed it. I needed that in retrospect. And even then I knew I needed it and I stayed in it. I needed that in retrospect. And even then I knew I needed it and I stayed in it. I stayed in it and it helped me rebuild myself and rebuild the person that I wanted to be in the world and how I wanted to treat other people. And I made that vow during that period of time

that honesty is where I want to be, no matter how difficult the conversation, no matter how much judgment I think someone's going to give me, or if they're going to reject me or humiliate me for my truth, I have to speak it. It's such a big one. It's a point not to be overlooked. Yeah.

I think like the Ram Dass's main guru, you know, telling him, tell the truth and love everyone. That's it. Tell the truth and love everyone. Can it it. Tell the truth and love everyone. That's Ram Dass' main dude, that flowered Ram Dass. Tell the truth and love everyone. And, you know, the first agreement, the four agreements, be impeccable with your word.

It's number one, right? Like all the teachings of the Toltec, all the many books that they've come out with, you know, aside from Don Miguel Ruiz, the mastery of the Toltec, all the many books that they've come out with, aside from Don Miguel Ruiz, the mastery of that lineage, be impeccable with your word. Number one, first on the list. It's fucking tough too.

It's still tough. I mean, I'm a lot better at it now, but it's still tough. I still have the jitters that come up sometimes because I also care what people think and I don't want to, a couple of things. I care what people think to some degree, especially the people that matter to me particularly, right?

I don't want to hurt them with that truth. And we have to weigh up the cost. If we don't speak that truth, would that hurt them more? I mean, the answers are unequivocal. Well, not always, but most of the time, yes. Depending on the circumstances, of course, but most of the time, yes, depending on the circumstances, of course, but most of the time, yes. So that's the path, that's the work though, is working through that, is the shame that comes up, is the feeling of rejection that comes up, of the unworthiness, of the littleness that comes up and continuing to be with that. And that's my

commitment to myself is, can I just continue to walk the path of truth irrespective of what's around me? And it's not, you know, with what's happening in the world now, man, as an example, there's parts of me that want to speak more to it at a deeper and different level. And I have to sit with that. And I think, where is my voice best served? Is it served in the space that I'm in now with respect to helping people break free of their traumas, teaching them about relationships, sharing my

own experience about it? Because relationships are so rich, they're a rich, fertile ground for growth, right? And expansion, or is it speaking to some of the geopolitical issues that are transpiring, the economic issues, the cultural issues, the more collective compounded issues. And I think it's a combination of both, but to put, there's a part of me that wants to speak more to that because it's been a part of me for so long. I mean, that little six-year-old kid, United Nations Secretary General. But I have to play with that. It's a constant dance. And I guess what I'm attempting to say with all of that is I think it's a constant evaluation. I don't think it's static. I don't think it's

just one way. Sometimes it is. Sometimes it's very clear and very direct and it's very certain. And other times it's dancing with it, right? And being certain within the dance. And that's where I'm at now. I think most of us are there. We're not perfect in that, no matter how much we want to be. But I still struggle with truth sometimes, but fuck, am I eons better than what I was? More advanced and proficient? Big time, big time. Yeah, absolutely.

Yeah, I think with the collective consciousness and the collective lies that are going on in the world. It is important to break through. And of course, between me and JP Sears and the cliques that we run with out here, we're well aware of what time it is, what's going on in the world. And we voice that from time to time. And at the same time, within that dance, there still is, how do I ground this back to everyday life?

Like, what is the practical practice in my everyday life that I can do? What are the ways that I can show up in relationships, in my job, online, wherever? The immediate impact, right? Yeah. The immediate impact. Exactly. Because if we just leave it out there, right, then we're just finger pointing,

which we see online all over the fucking place. If we don't bring some task back home on how to live better, then we're missing the point of what's executable. What are the decisions I can make on a daily basis that actually matter, that maybe won't change the whole collective, but it always has to start from within. And then that trickles out to everyone that we're around.

And I think it's that oscillation, right, that you're speaking about. Yeah, I've been battling with that for a while because, you know, there's this part of me that I want to impact a billion people. I want to change the world. And I still do. And Dunbar's rule, right, Dunbar's law is like, well, maximum you're going to know about 150 peoplebar's rule, right? Dunbar's law is like, well, maximum, you're going to know about 150 people, 200 people, right? But intimately, like really intimately where you can impact people

at a really deep level. I'm not saying we can't do that. You can't do that with your podcast. You interview someone or you say something profound and someone just goes, whoa, that's it. And their trajectory for life just goes, boom. You can do that. And you don't even know the person, 100%. And think of if you show up or if I show up in a greater level of truth and I impact my wife and I show up to her in the most meaningful way and irrespective of what impact she makes on others because she feels more grounded, safer, better, more enlightened for the interaction, whatever it may be, right?

What about just the intrinsic value of that conversation or that interaction and her life changes or is more grounded or whatever the positive attributes that we assign to growth in life happens just in her? I think my job's done. Yeah, and that's from Dolores Cannon, who's one of my favorites, but definitely writes some out there shit,

out there spiritual books. She was, I don't know if you're familiar with her, but for the listeners- I'm familiar with her, but not- Yeah, I've mentioned her before. She's had a lot of videos resurface. She passed on in 2014, but she has several books,

maybe like over a dozen. One of my favorites is The Three Waves of Volunteers in a New Earth. And she used to do a specific type of hypnotherapy for past life regression and things like that. Initially just starting off with, you know, smoking cessation and typical hypnosis stuff.

And then all these past lives kept coming up with the people that were drawn to her. And she found across continents and decades of doing this, over three decades of doing this, there was a shit ton of parallels. And one of the things that kept coming up for people was not feeling like they were doing enough in the world. I know what my purpose is, but I don't feel like the impact that I have is where I'm supposed to be. I don't think it's impacting enough.

And across the board, as they got to the high self or the higher being, whatever you want to call that language, soul, over soul, across the board, it was always enough, whether it was impacting one person or two people. If you had one child, if you were married, but you never had kids and you impacted your partner, it was always enough.

And Charles Eisenstein says that too. It's so powerful, man. In the more beautiful world our hearts know is possible, right? Any decision that is made for the good, any action that is done for the good of all is reverberated through the all. Because as we've experienced in plant medicines and many other journeys and altered states, there is no such thing as separation. That is the grand illusion. We are interconnected and

interdependent and interrelated with all things. And so that ripple, right? That ripple is felt through the one universe, as Chuck says, one song, right? We're singing the one song. We're in that orchestra. And however small and quiet the whisper of that sound is in your interaction and relation to another, it impacts the whole fucking thing. And I think that to me, from reading books that are way out there from Dolores Cannon

to very practical from the genius Charles Eisenstein and everything in between, that's something that keeps circling back, you know, because I mean, this podcast is, we're top 10 in health and fitness, but we're a pissant compared to Aubrey,

who's a pissant compared to Rogan, you know, like you think of the ladder and the game of comparison and that's come up for me, but that's the same thing. It always circles back to that. However small, any action done for the good is felt through everything. What a relief. Yeah. Isn't, isn't, I mean, I, I feel a wave of relief

coming over me as you were just saying, just speaking those words and what I'm making them mean and what they mean to me. It's, it's, it's a sense of fuller acceptance. Like just what a fucking relief. Now that doesn't stop me. I think we think that, you know, acceptance is complacency. It doesn't stop me from wanting to create or be or be more intrigued and curious and impact. But it gives me a sense of relief in terms of, oh, I can be even more deeply grateful for what I have

and what I'm doing and who I am in the world. Just here and now, it's enough. Yeah. It's just enough. A lot of the medicine journeys that I've had recently have circled back to being content. And people think if you're content, then there's no drive. It sucks the wind out of your sails for goal attainment or anything like that. And it just reframes it.

It doesn't suck the wind out of the sails. It doesn't mean I don't want more. I don't want to impact bigger. I don't want to think of new ways to, to influence, you know, my communities and people outside of the, but with the contentment, it's like, there's the recognition of, oh yeah, we're fucking doing it. Oh yeah. Like we're, you and I are doing it right now. Like, yeah, we're fucking doing the thing, you know? And we're doing well within that, you know? And there is a peace that is accessed from the ability to tap into being content. That doesn't nullify goals or drive or motivation.

It actually gives space for that to operate in a healthy way. Yeah, massively, man. I was talking about this, I was sending a voice note to a friend of mine this morning about, he was just sharing with me that he feels really stuck and stagnant in life and he's got some financial issues. And when I say financial issues, it's just, he's trying to expand his business, but he needs more capital to do so. It's a, call it a champagne problem, so to speak, but also trying to look after his family, make sure all the bills are paid and everything else. And I said to him, I said,

man, you know, in my past, what has really helped me has been that gratitude and acceptance and that look what I have, it's so much, it's just enough. This morning, I'll give you a few examples. This morning I was training and I recently, a few weeks ago, got a couple of 20 kilo, 244 pound kettlebells and I was using them today. That's my favorite weight, by the way. It's my absolute favorite. Yeah. It's my favorite weight. That's so good. You're such a beast as well. And so I was double snatching with them, right? Double kettlebell snatching with them and I was doing some weighted pull-ups and stuff. And I was looking at them, I'm thinking, damn, I'm so grateful that I could just go online and click a few buttons and have them come to me and not worry about being credit

card dead or anything like that. I'm in a very different position where I am now. I don't say that to gloat at all. It's just that as I've done my inner work, my outer world is not volatile anymore, right? And I was sharing with him the power of gratitude, which is, in essence, I have enough. It doesn't mean you don't want more, like what you just said now, but I have enough. And I looked at my shoe rack and I've got some shoes there. And there's a pair of shoes there that I've had for, it must be, I'm going to say 13 or 14 years, right? And I've worn them only a handful of times. Now those shoes, I remember those exact shoes were the shoes that I would, they were in a pair of innovates. They were mud claws because I was doing a mud race, right? And I needed mud claws. And I would be, this was 25, 26, and I wasn't great with money then.

And I would be on the website and I'd go keep revisiting the website every day. Should I get them? Should I not? I'm going to put them on my credit card. I'm going to go in more debt. They're 250 bucks. And I'll do that for months. And then I'd get them, then I'd feel guilty about it. There's old money patterns from my dad, right? And I'd feel guilty about it. And I still have them then. I looked at them and I smiled and I thought, fuck. I remember when, because I was wearing shoes this morning. No, I wasn't actually wearing shoes this morning. That came from looking at them and remembering on the weekend, I went to Enchanted Rock.

I was walking down. I said, with Christine, I shared it with that story. I couldn't even afford shoes. Like, oh, I would make myself think I couldn't afford them. And just being in that gratitude, like, now I can. And it's a simple thing. A pair of shoes. Like, oh, I would make myself think I couldn't afford them. And just being in that gratitude, like now I can. And it's a simple thing, a pair of shoes, just a pair of shoes. That acceptance of, wow, I have that, I have access to clean water that I can drink. I have enough. There's something really special that then comes from,

that is born from that place. Because now the focus isn't on what I don't have. It's on what I do have. And I have so much, even if they're just small things. I love that, man. Absolutely. Adyashanti talks about that. The trick of the ego is to always be in a state of need

and to always find problems and issues with no matter where you're at, you know, and it's, it's not, you know, many different ways, depending on who you study from, how you want to frame the ego and things like that. But the trick of the self you might say, and small self, not big self, right? Yeah. The pretend self. And, uh, that the awareness of that is, is a beautiful thing to be aware of, to become aware of, to be made conscious, right?

Like, oh, wait a minute, there's some part of me that's inherent in all things, some part of me that will always want more and always say that I don't have enough and always look for an issue with what I do have and always need to rearrange the house and always, you know what I'm saying? And it's like, oh, okay. As long as I understand that, then that can help me reframe when I actually do something. It's not on autopilot or it's not because of, you know, this quiet whisper that's become, you know, that has actually taken the wheel and is driving the car now, you know? But you brought up your incredible wife, Christine Hassler. We spent so much time talking about relationships that failed. Let's talk about this amazing marriage and this beautiful partnership that you have. I have known Christine longer than I've known you. And right when she brought you in, I was like,

fuck yeah, here you go. Like I could see the match. I could feel the match. But it wasn't until we were out in Sedona for Fit for Service where I really got to experience both yours and her medicine in tandem. And I think without question, you know, people that were a part of that experience, the entire week was a medicine journey, you know,

with non plant medicine, but very much a medicine journey. Parangi played his first live set since quarantine had started. And it was fucking incredible. And so I say like all of these things, we had layers of them, breath work with Anahata, so many breakthrough experiences that were giving us altered states of consciousness

and breaking us out of our shells. And you guys come along and you already know this because I mentioned it to you while we were there. I mean, it's a lot when you go through an ecstatic dance. It's a lot. You move a lot of energy, especially if you're really into it. People move a lot in breath work. And even though I wasn't participating in it, guiding it takes a lot as well, three different groups. And so by the time you guys came to deliver your medicine, I was like, oh, this is great. I'm going to fucking listen to these guys for a bit. We'll talk archetypes. And then I'm going to take

a little nap and actually restore myself. And I got to participate in that. And across the board, you guys turned people fucking inside out. Like I thought this was my day off and that, man. And that broke so many of us down, myself included. Just the memory of that touches me. The memory of that opens me up. And it wasn't just to break you down, not build you up. Like it cracked everyone across the board, universally wide open in a way where I was just in partly maybe it's because I didn't have any expectations of it in a way where I was just, and partly maybe it's because I didn't have any expectations of it at all, but I was just floored.

It was my favorite part of the event. And I think a lot of people really felt that way. Like, holy shit. Talk about the container that you guys have created for yourselves and some of the practices that have been able you to step into a place where you can deliver that kind of medicine? I adore her, man. And she sees me. And for the first time in my life, I've been met by someone with, she's human, so very little to no judgment. That's a very new thing for me. It's a very new thing. And to not feel judgment, no, to not be judged and to not have to retaliate from that place of feeling threatened.

Although sometimes I still do because I don't see her for who she is in those moments. But the intention of our container together is to just keep coming back to love and keep coming back to what would love do now and keep coming back to why we got together and how we complement each other and how we trigger each other as well and the magic in that. And then to share that with the world in experiences such as that

to the best that we can, to willing participants. And clearly the 150, 60, 70 people that were there were very willing participants, yourself included, you know. I'm glad you didn't take a nap because your energy was needed there as well. And so I just, I feel there's such disruption in separate biologically speaking or gender wise I feel there's a massive disparity in our society at the moment our masculine feminine energetics are disparate as well within and also with each other

and the intention of that experience was to bring back into unity the masculine feminine feminine within, but to show each other that we're so much more similar than what we think. Ultimately, if I had to just break it down, it's we're more similar than what we think. And can we celebrate our complementary differences? That's it.

That's it. Can we celebrate our differences and not be threatened by it? Not be threatened by, oh, you're a man. My perception of a man is that you're going to abuse me. You're going to try and control me. Therefore, all men are bad. And that's not a conscious thought, but it's such an unconscious thought that is permeating the minds of many women.

Not all, of course, but many. It's in the field. It's in the field, man. No question. So we've got to break that down because there's some truth in that, but all men aren't like that, but the nervous system feels that. And so if the nervous system feels that, the whole brain and body is going to be hypervigilant

and categorize everything or everyone that looks similar to that, i.e. man, as bad. And then we have many people doing that. And same with men towards women as well. They're less than or whatever the thought is or the belief is. So can we break that down? And you would have seen in that experience there were very few words. It was all experiential, nonverbal.

And just going to the truth of it and the core of it, can we fucking drop the facade? Can we drop the armor? Both of us, both of us meaning both men, both women. Can we embrace a more whole sense of self? And that's really meaningful work for me personally and for us, for Christine and I in the world. It's something that really invigorates and excites me. And, you know, from a perspective of enough, I don't think that will ever be enough for me to stop doing it. But, you know, I'm being facetious a little here, but it's, yeah, that's where I'm at.

Well, it's good that that drive remains because, yeah, there is no shortage of people, you know, there's no shortage of the work we get to clean up within ourselves and within our communities. It is a sense of that's a prime example. That experience is a prime example on if you show up and you're willing,

if you have the intention to drop the armor and participate, that big things can happen. And it's not shitty, not fun, hard stuff. You move through the challenging pieces and come out on the other side, like a fucking vast weight has been lifted. And you could see that it was visceral. You could feel it. I could feel it within myself. And that's beautiful work you guys are doing. You also do work with

men's groups. You've started a brilliant one out here that I have, not regretfully, I'm happy that I've been able to do. I'm giving my time to my little one, but I am chomping at the bit to participate in this because so many of our friends are a part of it. And I get to hear about these experiences and what's going on and love hearing about it. I love the work that you guys are doing. And you obviously, you know, with coaching and the work that you do in the world as a vocation, a lot of men are drawn to you.

You work with a lot of men. What are some of the key themes that you see across the board with the masculine right now as issues that men bring to the table when they start working with you and within the group? Repressed abuse, sexual abuse is more rampant than what many may think. Father issues in terms of still unconsciously seeking validation from the father, that tethering that's there, that cord that's there that needs the approval. And so it's that feeling of I'm not enough. I'm not enough as a man.

I need to do more. I need to be more. I need to have more. And no matter how much I have, it's just not enough. And the core wound around that is, dad, will you see me now? No, it's really, it's that. It's other issues of dishonesty, not being able to show themselves in the world, whether it's through unfaithfulness or whether it's through just being dishonest in friendships, not having a voice in friendships.

Most men are isolated. I said this earlier, I'm under no illusion that the friendships that I have, the male friendships that I have, it's a blessing. Most don't. The vast majority of men feel very alone and very isolated, do not have friends. They do not have people they can call. They have acquaintances. They may know a lot of people, but they don't have people that they can trust deeply. So they're alone in their thoughts, in their pain. But the repressed pain piece, man, the abuse, the physical and the sexual abuse is a big one, particularly the physical one more than anything else. You know, their ability to not emote, to not express what they're feeling, to only have anger as a secondary emotion that covers up the primary emotion,

which is now their go-to emotion. It's either that or being massively withdrawn from the world. Pornography is another issue as well. Sex compulsion, love compulsion, which is a form of codependence. But those are the top ones that really men come to me for and that what I see is happening in the world with respect to how men are showing up. Yeah, I recently started diving into

one of Aubrey's favorite books, The Smell of Rain on Dust. No, I haven't heard that one. Martin Prechtel, I think is how you pronounce his name. He's written several books. But he talked about one of the biggest issues within modern culture is the inability, you spoke about men's inability to emote and it's the inability to grieve and the inability to praise. Yes. Yeah. The praise is very threatening. See, if I praise you at some level, if I'm an unhealthy man, right?

I mean, I love praising you. I love seeing my friends rise. It fucking inspires me. But an unhealthy man praises you but he's threatened by that because if they're praising you, it means that they're a deficit or they're not as good as you in that domain but they need to be. And so they'd rather withhold that and keep it in themselves and compete with you instead in a hyper way.

The grief piece is very interesting as well because, again, if you're showing emotion, if you're showing pain or fear, now you're vulnerable. And the interesting thing is about, you know, we look at Brene Brown's work around vulnerability. One of the key tenets of being vulnerable is being able to face uncertainty, also having a range in our emotional expression, overcoming big challenges.

I would say some of the toughest guys in the world, soldiers, fighters, are faced with adversity, having to overcome challenges, faced with volatility, having to make big decisions. I mean, you know, in a very short period of time, we have a misconception of vulnerability and openness and transparency, but that also comes from a place of these boys growing up not being able to trust anyone, right? And so they can't trust anyone as adults as well. And so that informs their perception of vulnerability or being open and honest, because when they have been in the past, it's been criticized, it's been judged. Don't be weak, don't cry, big boys don't cry, whatever it may be, right?

And so we have this perception, this false perception of self, but all we're doing is isolating ourselves. Because what brings harmony in relationship? What brings unity and connection? It's when we speak our truth. It's when we share ourselves. How much strength is required to say something or express something really difficult that you're scared of? How much courage is required? But we think it's weak to be feeling that as if we're meant to be rigid In our way of being But we're not We're multifaceted, multilayered, expansive

Dimensional beings But we don't see ourselves that way We narrow ourselves And we have to operate within that dynamic Within that framework And men do a really good job generally of doing that Very rigid, very linear in their thinking. It's a very masculine trait, like linear, objective, orientated, very active.

But it becomes obsessive and then it becomes extreme, which becomes unhealthy. And now it's shadow masculine because it's happening at any and every cost. It's happening at the cost of relationship. It's happening at the cost of one's health. I'm going to be the CEO of this company no matter what it takes. No matter what it takes. Fuck. It's going to take a lot. You're going to sacrifice a lot, a lot of your soul. And you're going to get to 50. You're going to think, oh, I'm having a midlife crisis. You buy a couple of Ferraris and you think, it's empty still. Em empty still empty still empty because you're not allowing yourself

to be full yeah yeah there's a lot a lot in that I'm just thinking of the the mindset there's a book that Paul Cech sent me called Egregores and it talks about like the the archetypical or even spiritual layer of a corporation, like something that's formed. And it could be like a religious faction. It could be a cult. It could be anything where a group is formed and something begins to exist beyond that group because of a template that's been set in place.

I thought, I thought of it with like Nick Bostrom when he was talking about super intelligent AI. When we build a road, we aren't conscious of the ants that we pour asphalt over. So super intelligent AI might just wipe us out because it's not conscious of us as the ants it's wiping out. So if it's made to make paperclips at all costs, it overmines you or whatever it takes place, right? But similarly, that's how a corporatocracy has been put in place,

because it was at all costs to make money. Profitability was at all costs. And that's not hard. I use that word. I don't take it lightly. I've heard David Icke talk about it. I've heard many people that are on the fringe that speak to that,

but that is what's happening in the world right now. It's not a conspiracy. It's part of a system. Yeah, and we can track that back to people who make decisions like that. And if we're forced into a box of what the masculine looks like, we're going to be the fucking best at that.

Correct. And we're going to look up to those people that are making those decisions and think that we need to make those decisions as well because we value them and we put them on a pedestal. So this isn't, I agree with you, it's not conspiracy. You can be on the fringe and talk about this, but this systemic is a part of a beast

that we've created over time. It's not a bad or a good thing, but it's a thing. I don't know how sustainable it is yeah for for for the globe itself or for us as individuals yeah both the earth's carrying and carrying capacity don't i don't think can sustain this level of it's not so much this level of economy or economic growth it's more how we're doing it. The energy behind it, the emotions behind it, the structure behind it, the way we're extracting energy from the earth and then processing that energy

and distributing that energy as an example, right? Yeah. It's pretty rampant and rapid and it's like, you know, I've got a cut here, right? Okay, just from this morning actually, a little blister or whatever. Now, if I don't nurture that, and I keep doing what caused it, I'm just going to keep rupturing the blister and it's never going to heal. I'm not giving it, there's no reprieve. So at some point, I have to take some time off to give it reprieve, but we're not really giving the earth reprieve.

And we don't even give ourselves reprieve because we go, we go, we go, we go. So I think there's a rude awakening potentially for us because often, I know my perspective is that learning the hard way is not the only way by any means. I feel though collectively, the collective maturity of our planet and our consciousness, it's like, hey, well, you sort of got to only learn the hard way. It's where we're at. I think we're moving through that. I think we're transcending that, but it feels that's where we're still at as a collective humanity. I could be wrong. I hope I'm wrong. I don't think it's the case. I'm agreeing with what you're saying. I recently

had Dr. Will Tegel on the podcast and he was talking about that, that the greater consciousness that is Gaia and nature itself has many different methods of communicating with us. And we can show up in a vision quest by stripping ourselves of food and water and being in nature for four days. Or we can go into the cave. We can go into darkness like Aubrey did. We can use resonance, energy healing, a lot of these different modalities or plant medicines, right? And we change that receiver on the dial

to open us up to new arenas of consciousness to come through and speak to us. And that's been the plan of nature to reconnect us to ourselves and to nature as a whole. But now we're at a point in time where nature is going to continue to use that as a method, but it's also going to enter into our homes. And he talked about the snow apocalypse, you know, the great medicine

of the North coming down here to Texas and shutting off the power, shutting off the water and that deep recognition. He said in 1968, they didn't have air conditioning here in Texas. You know, there was a time of the year where people would work and then they would go home and go to bed because it was too hot to fuck. You know, so like as the seasons changed, you're like, all right, I'm leaving early

because I'm going to have, it's finally weather enough. The weather's calmed down enough for me to have sex with my wife. He tells this story and it's great, but it's like there was, that's not long ago where we were connected deeply to the circadian rhythm of the earth. That, you know, just a very short period of time.

And then now, I love fucking air conditioning, especially being in Texas, but that's a further disconnect. It's a further disconnect from the circadian rhythm. It's a further disconnect to the soft communication rhythm it's a further disconnect to the the soft communication the subtle energy of the earth right yes and so now we have this this new communication line coming in to guide us he calls these global gps systems you know like the gps system of of the earth to humanity the gps system of our solar system the gps um runs the Milky Way and then up the ladder through the whole thing,

through the one song. But that GPS is going to reroute us, you know, and like birth or like a purge, La Perga, there's parts of that that are very challenging. And I think we're in the very challenging piece, you know, as you mentioned. Yeah, I think so. And I think there's a veil over the very challenging piece

at the moment because I think people, again, I'm generalising here. I'm very aware of that. I think we are reluctant to see that and we're hoping, unintelligently hoping for the best and hoping that it passes and we are bypassing. We're spiritually bypassing, emotionally bypassing, collectively bypassing what is actually happening. And as a result, I think the collective bypassing, emotionally bypassing, collectively bypassing what is actually happening. And as a result, I think the collective bypassing is a result of the conditioned individual

bypassing, which I experienced for so many years, for all of my life, basically most of my life. And still have tendencies to do that as well. We all do. It's a defense mechanism and sometimes it works really well and we need to. But when it becomes a pattern and a habit and we apply it to every situation, whether it's an argument with our partner or an injustice that we're seeing on the street that we turn our head to in whichever way we do it. And there's so much gray in this and there's a fine balancing act. It's just going to permeate into the collective. And so now we're bypassing and hoping and hoping and hoping, but hope what? With no action, hope with no thought. Even these types of conversations,

I feel so grateful just having these conversations. The space that we've created, that you invited me here to have these conversations and for me to start thinking about, oh, I like that saying that GPS system in every area of our lives. Let me extrapolate, let me sit with that. I'm gonna sit with that tonight in my reflective practice

and I'm just gonna sit with that and think, going to sit with that tonight in my reflective practice and I'm just going to sit with that and think, huh how can I apply that to some of the Eastern philosophy, the Advaita Vedanta that I really adhere to and read and listen and absorb now, I wonder what's the similarity of that with that thinker and this and I love making those connections, like Joseph Campbell

right, that cross-cultural mythologist seeing all the connections of different time and space and different cultures and bringing it together and, again, celebrating our similarities. But if we remain in bypass, how are we going to change? I don't think we can. So we either use platforms like this and the World Wide Web

and Facebook and Instagram and Twitter and whatever the fuck else is out there and try and be a proponent of transformation, right? And do that, I think, in a non-attached way, if that's somewhat possible. And in the intention, at least, to not make it in an abrasive way where we're pointing fingers and telling people what to do and being harsh with that. And I know some people, I mean, I know in my life I've needed hard and harsh wake-up calls. But I don't think that's sustainably the best way to go about it.

Like forcing someone into something, that doesn't really work too well. Yeah. Ultimately. Yeah, we want to pull them along, not push them into it. really work too well. Yeah. Ultimately. Yeah. We want to pull them along, not push them into it. Pull them through inspiration. Yeah. Not force them through that pushing motivation, right?

Because that will only last so long. Eventually the motivation will dwindle. Sustainability everywhere, brother. That's what nature shows us, man. Absolutely. It has been an absolute treat having you on this podcast. And you guys are in town now. You're not far from me at all.

I want to spend more time with you. And I definitely want to run this back with you. Where can people find you online? Thank you, brother. I really appreciate being here as well. Social media is at StephanosSofandos or my website, StephanosSofandos.com. Dope.

I'll link to it all in the show notes. I love you, brother. Thank you. I love you too, man. you