Kyle Kingsbury Podcast - #216 Len May

Episode Date: September 2, 2021

Founder of Endocanna, Len May, is an incredible dude who just floors me with all of knowledge and the research coming out around Cannabis and our Endo Cannabinoid systems. His company will take your genetic results, or use your existing 23&Me, to pair you up with specific Cannabis strains for whatever purpose you seek. Really cool stuff! Head to their site(linked below) and use “KYLE20” for 20% off. Connect with Len:   Website: endodna.com  Instagram: @lenmaydna  Facebook: Endocanna Health  Twitter: @LenMayDNA  YouTube: Endocanna Health  Show Notes:   endodna.com  Use code “KYLE20” at checkout for 20% off any and all products Sponsors:   Organifi Go to organifi.com/kkp to get my favorite way to easily get the most potent blend of high vibration fruits, veggies and other goodies into your diet! And now they’re even easier with their TRAVEL PACKS!!! Click that link and use code “KKP” at checkout for 20% off your order! Lucy Go to lucy.co and use codeword “KKP” at Checkout to get 20% off the best nicotine gum in the game, or check out their lozenge.  BLUblox head over to www.blublox.com for the best, most stylish blue light blocking glasses in the game! Use code “KKP” and get 10% off any and everything there!  Soul CBD Head to mysoulcbd.com  and punch in “KKP” at checkout for 15% off the best in the CBD biz. Connect with Kyle:   Instagram: @livingwiththekingsburys   Youtube: Kyle Kingbury Podcast  Kyles website: www.kingsbu.com    Like and subscribe to the podcast anywhere you can find podcasts. Leave a 5-star review and let me know what resonates or doesn’t.

Welcome to the show, everybody. We've got an excellent guest, Len May, who started a company called Endocanna, which, well, if you've heard me talk about cannabis before, or endocannabinoids, as well as terpenes and all sorts of other cool stuff. If you're not a fan of smoking weed, that is totally okay. This might change your mind. And regardless if cannabis is legal or not in your state, CBD is. And what's cool is Len May has developed a way to look at your own personal genetics, similar to 23andMe, and then take that through their data sets and see what works best with you for inflammation, pain, sleep management, all sorts of cool stuff. It's really fantastic. And I'm fascinated by the new science that's coming out in particular to cannabinoids and different receptors in the body, as well as with

plant medicines, tobacco, and other things of that nature, which we do get to dive into in this podcast. Len is awesome. He's got a cool story and he's giving you guys 20% off. Just use Kyle20 over at his website, which we'll link to in the show notes to get a test from Endocanna and figure all this cool stuff out for yourself. We are going to just jump right in to the sponsors. We are brought to you today by Organifi. And something I wanted to talk to you guys about is the Organifi travel packs. So they have canisters and they have travel packs. Many of you have heard me talk about the Red Juice and the fact that I love using it for workouts. They're travel packs. I just went out to Paul Chex for his 60th birthday and it was an incredible celebration out in Southern California

and I brought the Organifi Red Juice travel packs. The travel packs are great for whatever reason. Maybe it's because of the different mushroom blend and things like that. It can get a little clumpy in the canister. But in the travel packs, they're all single serving, super easy to travel with. And even if it does get clumpy, it's no big deal. You just bust it up with a knife. But these travel packs are so

convenient. Absolutely easy. I leave a couple in my fanny pack. They give you extra energy. They're antioxidant rich and they help with endurance. Again, loaded with superfoods, very low in carbohydrates. They have cordyceps mushrooms, Siberian ginseng, reishi mushroom, and beets, as well as other things that help any workout. And it doesn't have caffeine, so it stacks well if you're a caffeinated person like me. And if you're caffeine-free, it works just the same. But this is something I have pretty much every workout during my workout and as well as when I travel because it just works so well at giving me extra energy

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And you're just going to think more clearly. Nicotine fits in the same receptor sites as acetylcholine, as I've mentioned before. Almost every nootropic on the planet is trying to increase acetylcholine. And they usually take something like citicholine or alpha-GPC and then pair that with something else that will then change that into acetylcholine. I think acetylcholine, you need a prescription to get, but guess what? Nicotine fits in those exact same receptors. Four milligrams is a great starting place for people that are first starting out that aren't sure. Hopefully you have no history with bad forms of tobacco, but yeah, if you don't have a history with it, typically

people can bite off more than they chew if they start with something that's a little stronger than this. So I think this four milligram dose is perfect. You can get 20% off any order over at lucy.co, L-U-C-Y.C-O, and use promo code KKP at checkout. That's lucy.co, promo code KKP. And the disclaimer is this product contains nicotine derived from tobacco. Nicotine is an addictive chemical. Yes, it is. And highly worth it in my humble opinion. We're also brought to you by Blue Blocks. Blue Blocks, another thing I brought out. It's funny, I'm using all these. I brought every single one of our sponsors out to checks. Blueblocks are my favorite blue light blocking glasses.

Um, this is just a phenomenal company. These look great. Uh, they offer amazing products such as 100% blackout sleep mask and red light therapy devices and sleep friendly light bulbs, uh, also at their website. So there's a lot of cool things they have here. They have red bulbs as well. So, um, one of the things I've been talking to people about in particular, and especially beneficial if you travel, is to be able to change your bulb out. So you have a nightlight that isn't going to

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on the podcast and then forget my CBD. When I head out to, like I said, flights are demanding and taxing. And even though I had a good seat, it's still a lot on my body. CBD is something that has helped me tremendously over the years. It helped me come off eight ibuprofen a day when I was fighting. And my soul CBD is my absolute favorite. These guys have the best tasting CBD products on the planet. They have gummies. They have capsules.

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and apply code KKP at checkout for 15% off your order. And this company is started by Mike Lee, a world-ranked professional boxer. He's going to be coming on the show soon. So you get to hear more straight from him. But that's it. Support our sponsors. They really make this show possible. And check out my dude Len May with Endocanna. Len May, welcome to the podcast, brother. Thanks for having me, man.

Appreciate it. Yeah, absolutely. My podcast producer extraordinaire, Roy Matz, was telling me about you and I was just chomping at the bit and, uh, really wanted to get you on, but I wanted to do something first. So we've had a few reschedules in the works here. And, uh, my lazy ass has not yet completed what I wanted to complete in, uh, in taking your test prior to the podcast, but I know we've got plenty to discuss here. Are you in Canada? No, I'm in LA. LA, okay. I don't know why.

I must've been thinking of my boy, Dr. Mike Hart. Anywho, tell us a bit about yourself and what got you into the field of genetics and cannabis. Yeah, well, I appreciate being on. And Roy's, just to give him some props. He did the theme song for my podcast as well and produces some of my stuff. So yeah, he's definitely a gifted producer that has a lot more to offer than just editing shows. So my background is I was actually born in a country called Lithuania and immigrated when I was about six years old to Philadelphia.

And when I was a kid, I basically would go to school. And as an early teen, like all these windows would pop open in my head. And I would be the kid that doesn't pay attention in class. Not overly disruptive, but didn't pay attention. So I got diagnosed with ADD, and they tried to put me on all kinds of prescription medication. Some of it worked, but all of it sucked. I was hanging out with some older kids. I think this is freshman year of high school, and they asked me if I wanted to smoke a cigarette with them.

I was like, yeah, I to smoke a cigarette with them. I was like, yeah, I'll smoke a cigarette. They had one cigarette. I walk over next to the school, and they take drags, and they pass it over to me. I take a drag with a cigarette, inhale, cough, because I babbled in cigarettes before. It didn't taste like a cigarette. They filled it with cannabis. So I went back to class and all the windows in my head sort of slowed down

and I could focus and pay attention. I was like, hmm, this is interesting. And eventually I just stopped taking any prescription medication and cannabis became my medicine of choice. And my parents didn't really like that too much. So they ended up catching me and I would get kicked out and get in trouble and all this stuff. And then eventually when I was

around 18, 17, they actually ended up calling the cops on me and trying to have me arrested. And they kicked me out. The irony of this whole thing is that my parents both consume formulations and stuff that I made for them now. So it all came full circle. They kicked me out, tried to get me arrested, but now are taking the same meds. So it's pretty funny. But the journey started with that. And from there, I became an activist.

So I became the president of the Cannabis Action Network. So Fawful Legalization held the first ever rally at Independence Hall in Philadelphia. And the other sort of aha moment that allowed me to kind of figure out that this is in medicine was when I held my rally in Philadelphia. My keynote speaker was this lady named Elvie Mosica. And she had a degenerative glaucoma, legally blind, and she was one of the first people, one of the 16, I think, that got NIDA-prescribed cannabis, which is where the government actually cultivates cannabis in Mississippi and legally provides it to certain patients with certain conditions, or they used

to under that program. And in this federal land, when I saw her light up a joint in front of federal rangers, I was like, wow, this is pretty cool. This is the future. And this is back in 1993. So it took a few years for Pennsylvania to get with it. But the moment was when everybody slept over my house after the rally, we got woken up to a loud noise. And the noise was, I was dating this girl who was an artist and she made this sculpture in my house. And Elvie being blind when she woke up, she didn't see it. She walked into it and broke it in pieces. And she felt really bad. But what I saw was that when she started to medicate, she could see again, still wore her big glasses and stuff, but she could see. So I'm like,

oh, well, this is medicine, not just for me, but I can see it working right in front of my eyes. No pun intended. But I met the girl I was dating who ended up being my wife, ended up being my ex-wife, and she told me I had to get a corporate job. So for a little while, I got into corporate. I worked at a company called Pricewaterhouse for doing consulting and I was a commercial real estate broker. And then it brought me out to LA. And this is about 13 years ago or so. And I got into the dispensary space. I thought that this was the best way for me to help as many people as possible. In my moment of understanding where cannabis became a personal experience, I always knew people have different experiences, but I never thought about it in this matter. So one of the guys I was working with asked if we want to consume some cannabis.

I said, yeah, sure. He's like, what do you have? And I said, yeah, this stuff is sativa dominant, I believe. And he's like, oh, no, no, no, I can't have that. That stuff puts me to sleep. I was like, what? That doesn't make any sense. I always remember being taught like indica's in the couch, indica's down, and sativa's up. But he had an opposite reaction. So one of the things I started in the form of ADD that I have, I can multitask or I can hyper-focus. And this became my obsession. So I tried to find a solution of why this is happening, why two people with the same symptomatic condition walk into a shop and both of them consume the same

cultivar or cannabis strain as some people to, and have a complete different experience. So I came across a video by a guy named Kevin McKernan, who was one of the first people to genetically sequence cannabis. Ended up, long story, probably a little bit longer, but I ended up working with Kevin. What I was doing was I was traveling the United States and Canada and collecting samples of different cannabis strains or cultivars, bringing it to my lab, extracting the DNA from that, and sending it to a lab in Boston into a sequencer so we can start sequencing genetically the different cannabis cultivars. And we could see an example would be, I would collect five samples of Blue Dream. And from there, I could see that two of them are identical, so they must be Blue Dream. And two of them are related. They have some similarities, but not Blue Dream. And the fifth one really wasn't even close to Blue Dream. And having that library, one of the other things to match everything together was that

the parent company where Kevin was at, where I was consulting, was a pharmacogenomics company. They used genetics and DNA to do diagnostic testing on different conditions like cancer, autism, and epilepsy. So they had a meeting at Harvard Medical School with a bunch of doctors that were treating kids with epilepsy and other things, but mostly epilepsy using cannabis. And a lot of them were having amazing experiences. They were saying they were going from 100 seizures to zero,

but some of them were coming back and saying they had some outliers, meaning that either it wasn't working for them that well or the seizures were coming back. So when we did the genetic scanning and analysis of those kids, we saw that they had genes in common or what we call polymorphisms, which are genetic associations with that specific genotype that was a specific form of epilepsy called Dravet syndrome. And we published an article on that.

Long story short, GW Pharmaceuticals picked up on that and they created the first FDA approved product years later for that specific form of epilepsy, Dravet syndrome. So when I realized that you can focus on specific biomarkers and specific genes, and we had plant genetics, we had human genetics, I wanted to bring those two together. So I approached them. They really wanted to focus on the plant. So in 2017, we launched Endokina Health. And that's sort of a long-winded story of how I got into it. And I can kind of go into a little more detail if you would like. Yeah, please. I mean, this is fascinating to me. I mean, growing up in California,

I never was too into cannabis when I was young. Obviously, it was going around in school. I got into it heavily in college, not, I mean, more just recreationally. And then in fighting after having discontinued for some time, I started to realize like this was an actual medicine and a tool that could help me with inflammation, with sleep, lowering anxiety, obviously in fight camps, I was pretty nervous or anxious at night going to bed, thinking about my training, those kinds of things. And it really became a beautiful tool for me to be able to fall asleep at night and um it didn't impact my cardio you know like the drinking alcohol would coke any of the obviously fucking hard drugs they're not going to help me when it comes to my training and they're always a hindrance but cannabis was not a hindrance i mean mean, I could, I could smoke the night before a sparring day and go and have great session sparring. I know a lot

of guys that train on cannabis and have phenomenal cardio runners, different people like that. So with that kind of misnomer out of the equation, I really started to look at this as, um, as a tool. And obviously I think, uh, we're, we're just scratching the tip of the iceberg when it comes to really understanding what all these alkaloids and cannabinoids do, terpenes, the whole lot. I want you to dive into all that stuff. I mean, let's get nitty gritty here. And for people that didn't grow up in California or live in a state where they don't have access or some of the best things. Um, I want the information here to really just cover so much for so many people so that they do know, and they do know where a place to start. And that's what, one of

the reasons I think the company that you have is, is bridging that gap for so many people, you know? Um, one more quick thing I'll riff on is how, uh how when I smoked with my dad for the first time, I was 21 and he had come out to Arizona and I gave him, we were passing around like a little one foot bong. I'm like, I will use the small one, that kind of thing. And we just had one rip and we were watching an old movie, like a young Frankenstein or blazing saddles. And I'm dying laughing with my roommate and my other buddies. And he's quiet as a church mouse. And I look over and I'm like, what's going on, dude? You all right? And he was like, too much. It's too much. It's not the same. It's not the same. And I was like, what's not the same? He goes,

the weed, the cannabis. And I was like, oh, I was like, yeah, it's different now. Right? So I think for a lot of people that, you know, if you're a little bit older and you're first coming back to it, it's really important to know what you're getting into and what the response is going to be. So this is all super valuable information for me, especially since I've really in large part

switched over to mainly CBD and things of that nature, but I'm always curious and I'm super down to take the deep dive with you. So let's get in here, get nitty gritty on anything you want to unpack, brother. Yeah, let's do that. It's funny, your story about your dad. I smoked with my dad for the first time when I was, I don't know, like 45, maybe. And he had a very similar experience. And we only took, I said, take like one or two hits. And he was quiet and he didn't say anything.

And I was like, what's going on? He's like, can we get some water? Like, okay, you're high. And I was in a show and this guy, the host of the show goes, yeah, so back in the day, this is the way we measure how much we consume. He said, one joint equals one beer. I said, no way, brother. Not anymore, man. If you're going to consume a whole joint, you will be under the table, man.

There is no way you can compare the two. You're absolutely right. I'll get into the real deep dive into the science of it because I think it's interesting. When we launched Endocanna Health in 2017, the first six or seven months or so, all we did was research. We looked at every single SNP, which is a single nucleotide polymorphism, which is basically your genes. We looked at every single one of them that has an indirect association with your endocannabinoid system. And I'll explain the endocannabinoid system at a really high level. I'm sure your audience, most of them already know what that is. But your

endocannabinoid system is the primary regulatory system. It regulates a lot of the other systems within our bodies, like the endocrine system, the nervous system, immune, digestive, all these different systems. And the way that it does that is by getting signals from those systems. And it's like salmon swimming upstream. It goes back up your central nervous system to your brain, most amygdala and a couple other parts of your brain, and it sends those signals back where there may be imbalances in some of those systems. And the way that it regulates the systems, it releases its own endogenous endocannabinoids. So the two endogenous endocannabinoids that it releases are anandamide. And the word anandamide in Sanskrit means bliss.

So this is your bliss hormone. And that one is the one that's closely related to THC. So when you consume cannabis THC, you have a binding affinity so that THC binds to your CB1 receptor, and it stimulates the production of anandamide, which is our endogenous endocannabinoid. The second one is called 2-AG. It's 2-arachnidonaglycerol, but it's much easier to say 2-AG. And that one is more, think about your immune and digestive system being regulated by 2-AG. It's your CB2 receptor. And when you consume CBD, for instance, it has a greater affinity for the CB2 receptor, which then regulates and modulates your immune and digestive system.

So when you're saying CBD, it really works great as an anti-inflammatory because it helps regulate those systems. And THC helps to regulate mood. So when you have anxiety and stress and some depressive states. It also works as an analgesic and a bunch of different other benefits. However, cannabis is a personal experience and cannabis itself, the plant itself, has close to around 500 different components in it. And a lot of them, we don't even know what they do.

So we've identified, as you were mentioning, Kyle, we identified cannabinoids, right? So the cannabinoids, the phytocannabinoids in the plant, it's basically the genetics of this plant. It produces all these different molecules and they work together to create an effect. And the terpenes are basically essential oils. So every single plant has essential oils. They're all terpenes. And in cannabis, they give it its smell. And they work together in concert with the cannabinoids to produce an effect. So to give an example of that would be if you're consuming cannabis, and we talk about sativa and indica. So the original land-raised indica cultivars or

strains, they originated in Southeast Asia, where they had a harsher climate in that area. They had four seasons. So this plant, it looks a little bit bushier. The leaves are a little bit wider. And the smell, when you actually cure the bud and you grow it, it has this diesel musky kind of skunky smell. And that's associated with the primary terpene, the essential oil, called myrcene. And that is associated with what we would refer to as an indica-dominant plant because that myrcene together with the cannabinoids is sedative. Now, the other plants that grew were more in a different climate, like in South Africa with the Durbans and in Hawaii with the Mauis. They grew a little bit different.

They stretched taller to the sun. The leaves are a little bit thinner. And when you produce the flower from that bud, that has a little bit of a fruitier kind of smell associated with that. So that is an even citrusy, and that's associated with a terpene profile called limonene. And limonene has been shown in studies to give you a little bit of boost of dopamine when you merge it together with the other cannabinoids. That gives you the up feeling. So that's where the sativas and indicas kind of came from. But all that is done because we've crossbred so many different strains and cultivars and chemovars

that really that pure indica and sativa doesn't exist. So if you're looking for an experience, you have to look at the cannabinoid profile, and then you have to look at the terpene profile. And the challenge is that not a lot of states actually require for you to do testing of terpenes. And I would encourage people to do just manufacturers to do testing of terpenes and provide them to the users. And if states want to mandate that, if we can't voluntarily do that, unfortunately, maybe that's a path that we can go by. But people need to be informed. The same way you go into your vitamin shop and you buy your supplements, no matter where

you are, you know exactly what's on there because it's on the label. When you go into a dispensary, even with CBD, as you were mentioning, Kyle, you never know what you're putting in your body. And that's the thing that we want to make sure that everybody knows. You want to know what you're putting in your body, and then you want to know what aligns best with you based on your genetic predisposition, knowing your blueprint first. Absolutely. I will say no government mandates. Fuck all that noise. No more government mandates. All right. No more government mandates. We'll do it voluntarily ourselves. Economics can handle that, right? I mean, if I go to a dispensary when I'm back in California and there's a particular brand that shows me the most about each product and has third-party testing and things of that nature, then that's likely something I'm

going to buy, even if it costs a bit more to the end user, just for the fact that I'm going to know what I'm getting. And I think that the market can determine that kind of thing. And there's still going to be people out there that are like, just me a bag of weed or whatever you know they have no real idea those are the equivalent of people that don't mind drinking a box of franzia wine um right i assume that at this stage of the game and clearly not any of my listeners but if you're going to dabble do it right you know and and uh that's where this information really comes in handy. What have you found in terms of the different combinations? You've talked about these main distinctions that a lot of people might've known as far as sativa versus indica. And to your point, I mean, that

was something that always blew my mind. I had a good buddy of mine, I'll leave his name nameless here, even though he lives in California. Same thing, He'd have an indica and he'd be wide awake. Like he'd want to go outside and work on the house, mow the lawn, that kind of thing. And sativas would make him quiet and introspective, but he never could sleep on any strain. And like I would just be knocked out. I could knock out at 8 p.mm if i wanted to on an indica so the the variety there is um you know based on your own genetics is super important but yeah still on the topic of cannabis itself um what are some of the things that you guys have found because they're you know it's been a while i've been out of california for four years now but i remember hearing stuff like based on how they dried the

flowers and things of that nature that it could increase THC versus THCA, things like that. I mean, expand a little bit more on that in terms of like how these different cannabinoids affect, you know, CBN has the ability to make you more tranquil, CBG, a little bit more uplifting. What are some of the things that you guys have discovered since really taking a deeper dive into this? Yeah, I mean, it's a great question too. And thank you for bringing up the curing process and how it works. So when you grow the cannabis plant and you grow however, whatever your grow method is. They have these things called trichomes where you have the THC and the CBD,

all the different cannabinoids, they fill up these trichomes. So when they're filled and they change this color to become this amber color, that means that it's ripe and ready. So what you do in a cultivation is you try to sort of simulate the way the plant will grow in nature. You give it a little bit of stress right at the end because that plant's ready to produce when it's stressed. And when it's stressed,

it has the best potential to express its terpene profile optimally. So when you cut that plant down and those trichomes turn that amber color, you do the curing, which is the drying method. And what you want to do optimally, they found, I'm not a cultivator, by the way, so I'm just prefacing that. So if anybody's a cultivator and they can- Hey man, you got it wrong. So I'm going to try to explain the best of my ability because I've been in enough cultivation facilities to know. So the idea is to replicate the environment where it naturally,

you know, land race comes from. So if it comes from more of a humid climate, you want to create the temperature and the humidity level similar to that. And when you're drying it, now the flour is curing. So all those cannabinoids, those minor cannabinoids and major cannabinoids, they express themselves as well as the terpene profile. So you have those smells and you cut it down. And then you have your flour that's dried. Now, as you were mentioning, Kyle, you have these other cannabinoids, CBG, for instance, which is really the parent cannabinoid. All the other cannabinoids come from CBG. And actually, it's CBG-A because all the cannabinoids until you decarboxylate, which I'll explain what that is,

have this acid molecule. And CBN is a little bit different. I'll explain that too. But when you have this plant, it has mostly T, if you're cultivating for THC, mostly has THCA and then all the other minor cannabinoids, as you mentioned, THCVs for some of them, CBG, et cetera. But it has this acid molecule. So until you heat cannabis, when you heat it, it actually converts, it drops the acid molecule and it converts to delta-9-tetrahydrocannabinol, which is THC, and it does that with the other molecules. So the reason why is because when it has the acid molecule, the A molecule attached to it, it doesn't get you high. So it doesn't have the binding to the receptor. I'm sure you heard and your audience heard the lock and key.

So when you actually consume THC, we have a receptor, that CB1 receptor, and it binds to that lock. It has the key or vice versa to that lock, right? So until it drops that acid molecule, it doesn't fit. So it's not going to give you that affinity and make you high. And so when you heat it, it's called a decarboxylation process where it actually drops the acid molecule and converts. And it does that with same thing with CBD. If you're cultivating a high CBD cultivar strain, it'll also, when you heat it, it's CBD-A and you drop the acid molecule and you get the effect. But you can consume raw cannabis. It's very high

in protein and omega fats and all that other stuff. So it's good for you too, put in your smoothie or whatever, but it's not going to get you high. CBN is different. CBN is actually a derivative of a deterioration of THC. So back in the day when we didn't know, we would leave a bag of weed in the car or something like that. And you come back, you're searching for weed. And a month later, oh, I found this bag and it's great. And everybody smokes and they're couch locked month later, oh, I found this bag, and it's great, and everybody smokes, and they're couch locked. Like, oh, what happened? Well, maybe that bag was in direct sunlight, and it converted the THC that's in there to CBM.

The way that I sort of explain that is like a banana. So when a banana is kind of green, it's greenish, it doesn't have its full capabilities yet. It's not as sweet as it can be. It didn't really express itself to its full potential. When it's perfectly yellow, that's when you get the most vitamins and the most nutrients in that banana and it tastes the best. Now, when the banana starts getting brown, some of those things that are in it convert to different substances.

And that's sort of what CBN does. So it's a converted deterioration of THC. And you can manipulate it in a lab and make CBN, but that's really what CBN is. And to answer your question, what we found is this whole thing of this personalized experience. It's the combination of the cannabinoids and terpenes for the individual DNA makes the biggest difference. I'll give you an example of a really common trait. A lot of people have a predisposition to stress reactivity. I talk to a lot of people about, okay, cannabis, and they're like, oh, no, I don't smoke weed. It makes me paranoid. It gives me anxiety. Well, what is it? What are you

putting in your body? Which they don't know. First of all, they don't know what you're putting in your body like anything else. But there is a genetic predisposition that a lot of people have for stress reactivity. So I'll try to explain it this way, that there is a gene, it's called fatty acid amide hydrolase. So for those to remember really, really quickly, it's FAAH, F-A-A-H. And that gene or that SNP produces an enzyme that breaks down anandamide. And remember, anandamide is that bliss hormone that THC mimics. So what happens to a lot of people who are prone to stressful events, if you have a stressful event, like you were saying, I can't think of too many more stressful things than getting in an octagon

with somebody and getting ready to battle for your life, basically. I mean, there's a lot of stress that goes on. And obviously, you've dealt with that and fighters deal with that and they have techniques. But somebody who's an average person who walks down the street and a car almost hits them, you have all these chemicals that are pumped into your bloodstream. You have dopamine, you have adrenaline, norepinephrine, you have cortisol that's pumped in your bloodstream. And then when you realize, your brain realizes there's no line chasing in the jungle, it starts releasing its own endogenous chemicals to be able to get you back to balance. And the role of the endocannabinoid

system is just to do that, to get you back into homeostasis, which is balance. And it releases anandamide to give you that blissful feeling. But FA breaks down anandamide. So people that have a genotype, and the genotype for this is called homozygous. So it's the same exact variant. And if I'm getting really sciencey, I'll explain what that is. But the same two identical nucleotides, like a CC nucleotide, that's what's called a homozygous genotype. And basically what happens is people that have this genotype produce more pha than the average population. So think of it as like sort of Pac-Man pha that eats anandamide. So the more pha you have, the less endogenous what you produce yourself, the less anandamide that you produce. So over time, people are much more prone to stress. And over time, as they continue to release less anandamide, they continue to produce more cortisol, and some of that cortisol stays in your bloodstream and actually helps to reduce your pH level, so it makes you more acidic. And when that happens, your immune system can create an overactive immunoresponse, like what we heard, cytokine.

And when that happens, we start walking around and feeling pain, usually in our joints, our ankles, knees, elbows, wrists, et cetera. And then if people have a predisposition to gut health issues like IBD, it starts moving your gut. So you talk to a lot of people that have predispositions to anxiety and stress, reactivity, and they also have some pain. And that pain is mostly due to the lower pH in this overactive amino response. So there's a solution for this because if you consume some THC, that THC binds to the CB1 receptor and helps to modify the naturally occurring anandamide levels that you have. And because you have a deficiency in that, you're getting some THC that can help bridge that gap that you naturally have.

However, if you consume too much THC and a terpene profile, like I mentioned before, limonene, pinene, things that give you that up feeling, now it triggers. So because you have a genetic predisposition, now you epigenetically trigger the expression of that stress reactivity. And when that happens, you can be prone to that anxiety showing up. So to mitigate that, what we've found is somebody that has this predisposition may want to consume something that's a little more balanced. So maybe a 50-50, one part THC, one part CBD, because CBD works as an adverse agonist of THC as well. So it gives you that sort of balance. And then also the terpene profiles, like for instance, linalool, which is also found in lavender and has a lavendery kind of smell to that. It's been shown in studies to reduce the anxiety that can be provoked by THC.

And then something like beta-caryophyllin, which is another terpene profile, and it's also found in clove, and it's found in black pepper, and it has an affinity for the CB2 receptor, which helps with inflammation. So together, we found that people that have this genetic predisposition that consume a formulation that's more aligned to them, they have a much more optimal experience with their cannabis use. That's crazy the way the body works. I mean, I'm just thinking about people like that. I'm going to do it today. Let me say that right now. I'm going to turn people like that. And I haven't even, you know, we're, I'm going to do it today. Let me say that right now.

I'm going to turn in the endo DNA right now. But the, you know, this idea that if your body is naturally averse to, or naturally taking away your own anandamide production, that if you get a flood of anandamide, it's going to react like, hey, this is too good of a feeling. We need to react to this. It's like freaking out about too much of a good thing. I love the way you describe that too, man, because this is the main thing. Okay, I'm here. We have a DNA company and all that stuff. But at the end of the day, people got to listen to their bodies, man. If your body's telling you that something doesn't feel right, maybe it's time to pause or you have too much. You really need to be in tune with what your body's telling you because that's

the best barometer of everything. It's giving you that indication. And the other thing is, one of the things I do, I talk to people when I give, you know, talks in person when we used to be able to do that. One of the things I ask people, I'm like, how many people had a bad experience with an edible? And like, I don't know, 80% of the room raised their hand. Well, that's a whole other experience because the way we metabolize different things is a personal experience to begin with. And we have in cannabis, for instance, when you eat cannabinoids, THC and CBD, and it goes to your liver, your liver converts your THC to a different substance altogether. It's called 11-oxyhydroxide-beltanine-tetrahydrocannabinol, so 11-OH. It can be five to 50 times more powerful than smoking THC. CBD is converted as well.

Anything that your liver converts, and if you're a poor metabolizer, well, guess what? You will have a slower onset, so it won't act as quickly as everybody takes some gummies and you guys go out somewhere and everybody takes the same amount at the same time. Well, maybe if I'm a poor metabolizer, you guys are all feeling it. I'm not feeling it for another hour or 45 minutes. So when mine hits, it hits extremely, extremely hard. So now I have a very, very intense experience with my edible. And if I have a predisposition to something like we were talking about anxiety or something like a psychosis, even it can actually trigger that predisposition and people can have a very intense, you know, psychotic type of episode, which is disassociative.

So absolutely listening to your body is key. And the endocannabinoid system wasn't discovered until 1992. So this is a brand new system. And there's so many doctors that don't even know that it exists. And you're being treated by healthcare professionals that don't know that there is a primary regulatory system within your body. So just be aware when you're speaking to your healthcare professional,

have a collaborative discussion. Talk to them about your endocannabinoid system, what they think about that. One of the things that we've also done is we work with pain management specialists that were prescribing a lot of opioids. And when I talked to them, I was saying, what's the reason for that? Well, we don't know what alternatives there are.

And also, our patients keep asking for them. So, well, what if I showed you using our test or another test that somebody may be predisposed to opioid dependence. He's like, well, that would be fantastic. So we have doctors right now that are using our tests in their clinics to show their patients they have a predisposition to opioid dependence and they're suggesting a cannabinoid treatment instead as an alternative. Yeah, far, far better. Anytime we can redirect back to nature,

I think they're going to be much, much more positive results there. I've had, you know, I've heard that it's common, not super common, but it is common enough for some people who would utilize cannabis for pain and actually draws the awareness to the pain rather than numbing it. Yeah, absolutely. Is that fairly common as you guys have looked through this? Yeah, for different people, it definitely can accentuate those feelings. So it's sort of, there are a combination of genes for that. One of them is the gene that's associated with PTSD. It's a CNR1 gene.

So what's been happening in studies that we've been involved with, some people that have this experience, sometimes what it does, it draws an experience from their subconscious. So let's say that somebody is prone to stress reactivity, as I was mentioning before. And they have a combination of that pha gene that I was mentioning and CNR1. What happens is that your brain actually tries to store things in your subconscious to conserve energy. And when somebody is having a stressful event, for instance, they now are not only present in the moment. So if I'm sitting here in my office, smoking a joint, and I start feeling a little bit stressed because cannabis THC is a vasodilator. So it dilates your blood vessels. It makes your heart pump faster.

So it's a normal occurrence from consuming cannabis. Your heart's going to pump a little faster. But if you have that predisposition to that stress and anxiety, now you may be triggering that. If you also have a predisposition to PTSD or fear extinction, now it's not only bringing up the event that you're in right in the moment, it's also bringing up an event that happened to you five years ago or 10 years ago, when you were a kid, and it helps to bring all that up to the surface. And then, as you were

saying, for some people, it actually accentuates the feelings of pain. Instead of working as an analgesic, you start hyper-focusing on that area where you have pain and associating with maybe another experience where you had pain before. So absolutely, it can work as an analgesic for a lot of people, but if you're getting, if you have a predisposition for something that, and you're consuming cannabis that's misaligned to you, you can actually have a more adverse experience rather than an optimal experience. And when we spoke to the FDA, once the FDA asked us, what's the reason? What's the goal of your business? What are you creating this for?

And we answered that the number one reason is to help people avoid an adverse event, so an adverse effect, so they can have a more optimal experience with their cannabis use. And that's the overall goal of our business. I always felt it's sort of when you have a kid and you have to baby-proof the house. So one of the things you want to do is cover the sharp corners. So I look at it this way, that our goal is to help avoid those sharp corners so somebody doesn't get hurt. That's basically the reason why. Yeah, it's such an important piece there. You touched on a really important topic, too, that's often talked about with psychedelics and entheogens, which are plant,

you know, also, you know, AKA plant medicines. Cannabis, of course, is a plant medicine. And I've said before on this podcast, I'd rather have a high dose mushroom experience and deal with the consequences of that than any high dose edible experience. I feel like I can navigate the waters of psilocybin a lot easier than I can with a high dose edible of THC. But, you know, to your point on PTSD and things of this nature, if it's going to re, you know, one of the beautiful things about plant medicine is that we can revisit the past and see from new angles and new perspective and actually heal from that experience. This comes with intention, the right set and setting and the right guidance. And a lot of people, you know, like Terrence or not Terrence,

Dennis McKenna and Rick Doblin have both said there are no bad trips. There's only challenging experiences. And if we apply that to cannabis, I think the same is true. A lot of times people find themselves in that situation because they have an idea. I'm going to take this thing to feel a certain way. Now, if you've been listening this long, you should know we're not going to do that with something like psilocybin. I don't take psilocybin to get high. I don't take LSD to get high. Even though I might celebrate with that, I'm fully aware of the potentials that that may bring up. But with cannabis, we treat it that way.

A lot of people do. And the truth is, if you've got some shit buried deep and you got some skeletons in the closet, that can come out and it's dose dependent. And obviously everything that you guys are doing can really help one avoid that or say yes to that knowingly, right? And with intention, revisit those things.

And I think that's such an important piece to know like, hey, this is a super powerful plant medicine when used in that context. In terms, McKenna said, the idea of using cannabis regularly misses the point. If you take time in between and then smoke as much as you can possibly handle, then you're going to have a psychedelic experience. And even though I wouldn't necessarily do it the way he recommended, it's true in that it's going to be one hell of an experience. So I think having all of the importance of a safe container, the importance of the right guides around you and treating it as such with intention, even a dieta where you unplug from social media

and podcasts and just really get clear, spend time in nature and quiet your mind before entering into that space. And upon returning from that space, I think are super important. Yeah, you couldn't have said it better. It's 100% set and setting. I look at THC as a psychotropic.

I would put it in the same category as the things that you mentioned before, psilocybin and ketamine and disassociatives and MDMA, et cetera. So some people use it to feel good. Some people use it not to feel. And the setting is extremely important. One of the things that we're doing right now is, I'll let your audience in on it, I guess, now we're creating a mental health test. So one of the things that we found that's super, super important, look, at the end of the day, the science behind what we do is super cool. And we're doing so many amazing research projects.

We just published one on cannabinoid hyperemesis syndrome with Dr. Ethan Russo. You can look it up on PubMed. That has a genetic association with that condition. We're doing some research in Harvard Medical School. We're CU Boulder, et cetera. So we're super, super proud of the research that we're doing. But in addition, this whole thing of mental health, it's such a huge, huge thing because, and you know this, it really, really affects your physical health in so many different ways. And I'm a fan of microdosing. I'm a fan of psychedelics and psychotropics. And I put THC,

like I said, in that category. But one of the things we were talking about with clinics who are administering psychotropic treatments is what is most important to you? What is it that you want to achieve with your patients and who are coming to your clinics? They said, well, number one, one of the issues that we have is we're not really sure which psychotropic is best for their symptomatic conditions. That's first. So we have different options. So let's say somebody is prone to depression, depressive states. So now's say somebody is prone to depression, right? Depressive states. So now you know that there has been studies that showed that maybe ketamine and psilocybin and maybe MDMA, they've been effective for treatment of depressive states.

Okay. Well, that's one. The second thing is, what are the potential side effects or adverse effects of those treatments? And I agree with you about the bad trip, by the way. Absolutely, I think that there's a message that you should uncover a little bit more. However, some people may not be prepared to do that discovery in a certain setting. So when a clinic is treating somebody and they want to know that ketamine may express some stress or anxiety as a side effect for certain people, and if they know this,

then they know, is Bob that's getting this treatment, does he have a genetic predisposition to that stress reactivity, to that anxiety? If yes, what can we do with Bob in advance? What about maybe even holding Bob's hand or having something there to support Bob so he doesn't have that adverse experience or that side effect? Even though there may be a message there that you may want to uncover a little bit more, there's a way to be able to mitigate the expression of that adverse effect so you can have a better experience with your psychotropic consumption as well. Yeah, I love that. I love that.

So you guys are looking into the genetics with various plant medicines now, correct? Yeah, correct? Yeah, correct. Yeah, so we just filed a patent on that test, but we're going to be coming out with a test that's focusing on mental health. And it's a lot of psychotropic indications on that, but it's fully mental health because we've been realizing through doing this

for the last four years or so that a lot of these conditions are, are so related. And it's like, I'll give you another example. So my buddy was going through a divorce and he's not a huge, a wee guy. And, uh, he, uh, he called me up. He's like, Hey man, I know you always talk about, you know about cannabis is supposed to make you feel better. I'm smoking, and I can't get out of bed. And every day I'm smoking more, and it's making me feel worse. I'm like, well, what are you smoking? He's like, well, I don't know. I'm like, all right, find the package. Let me see. All right. So he was consuming what we would refer to as an indica

dominant strain, which had a lot of mercine or terpenoline and all these other things. And he had a predisposition to depression and seasonal mood problems, all these other things. So all he was doing was triggering his genetic predisposition to that. And when I looked at that and I said, okay, I think you need to modify your profile. When he modified his profile, he actually came back and had a really positive experience, much more balanced. And then he was open to other psychotropics. So then he did a journey with psilocybin and also had an experience where at first he started feeling down and depressed afterwards. And I said, well, just because you had an experience with psilocybin, that experience that you had may

have been an experience that showed you the way that you can be. But after you're done with your experience, there's still work. Now, it's not a magic bullet where you just do psilocybin and you're down, and all of a sudden, you're going to be happy for the rest of your life. It actually illuminates, for me and for the experiences that I've been with people I know, sometimes it can illuminate for you a path. And after you're done with your journey, it doesn't mean that you have to consume psilocybin again to get on that path. It means that there's some work to do in your life to be able to get there. And that's why I wanted to encourage people to have, I mean, you said this whole thing with having a bad trip to Terrence McKenna and those guys.

I completely, completely agree. It is a sign. There's something there for you to be able to dig a little bit deeper. The issue is some people don't want to dig and they rather bury that instead of, you know, going through the pain so they can get over on the other side of a darkness. Yeah, brother. Are you guys going to be studying different psilocybin strains? I mean, five years ago, I had heard of Golden Teacher and maybe a couple other ones. I had no idea the vastness and variety of psilocybin mushroom strains until probably the last four or five years when I started dabbling with different things. People have heard me talk about my experiences with penis envy and Enigma is a new one that's pretty intense and incredible. But

do you think you might be able to apply this technology and science to the different strains of psilocybin with the genetics as well? I mean, that's the goal. The goal is right now, we're looking at psilocybin because the way that it's administered in a clinical sense is psilocybin, right? So it's extracted and it's administered in a certain way. We don't know, as far as I know, usually in a clinical sense, you don't know what type of psilocybin you're getting, whether you're getting golden teacher or something else. I've been a fan of Paul Stamets for years. I've been trying to study some of the mycelium work that he's doing. And yeah, there needs to be a catalog of all the

different mycelium, all the different mushrooms and psilocybin that's available so we can start matching those the same way we do with cannabis. So ultimately, that's the goal. But it's about the data that you have, right? So using artificial intelligence, the deep learning, what we build, it's about getting good data. So the more data we can get, the more people will provide us that information. What is that psilocybin that you're consuming? The more clinics respond back, the more testing we do with labs, the same way we do for cannabis, the better the data that we'll get back

and the better recommendations that we're going to be able to make for people. That's phenomenal, brother. Yeah, I like this. The future is bright. The future is personalization, man. Everything is personal. Like I already get my vitamins delivered to me based on my DNA. I did my microbiome test, so I actually know what my gut bacteria is and which foods are right for me or not. Everything you're going to be doing is going to be based on your genetic predisposition. Now, the one thing that I want people to understand, just because you have a genetic predisposition to something, it doesn't mean that it's going to

epigenetically show up. And this is the one thing, like I've talked to people, I was like, I don't want to know. I don't want to find out if I have a predisposition to early onset dementia. And I'm always the person like, why not? Obviously you, you know, looking at biohacking and looking at improving yourself the best way you possibly can. You want to know everything. And so do I, I want to know everything about myself because if you have a genetic predisposition to something, now you can take action and your action can be, well, what do I do to make sure that I don't turn that on? Or what do I do to turn that off? It's like a light switch, right? We have these genes and we have

genes that we're sort of born with or we're locked in. Our skin color, our eye color, our hair color, our tall we're going to be, unless you have some sort of mutation, those are locked in. But a lot of the other genes are not. They are just a predisposition. They're just your blueprint. So if you do something, you can turn those and activate those. And if you don't want to do that, then not knowing, there's no way for you to control the epigenetic expression if you don't know what that is. So I would say, whether it's endoDNA, whatever it is, keep looking at studying yourself, looking at your genetics, and then being able to be empowered so you can then epigenetically control the expression.

Absolutely. I laugh about this all the time, but Aubrey and I have the predisposition for type 2 diabetes and obesity. And obviously, those aren't laughable diseases. They're affecting an incredibly high number of people and children now, type 2 diabetes as well as obesity. But those are never going to be expressed in my body, ever. I will never experience that in my lifetime. Your predisposition is not a death sentence. It allows you to work with it. It can illuminate on things not to do. I know that if I eat what may seem like a normal amount of carbohydrates with particular foods, like white rice, to any culture in Southeast Asia,

I would be diabetic if I ate that amount of white rice every day. It's just how my body processes it. But knowing those things, I can say like, all right, like that's my cheat meal. If I'm going to have white rice, let me do it cooked and cooled. I'll get some sushi and I'll do it after a workout. There's little things that I can do there that mitigate some of the issues that I would have with white rice. And then if I'm going to eat, if I want something sweet, I can make my own dessert with different natural sweeteners. I can eat some berries, things like that. And I'm not going to run into weight gain, inflammation, and certainly not going to sniff obesity or type two diabetes. That's just one of

many examples that I've learned from checking out my own genetics on a on a global level epigenetic wise and how those things express and i think it's super valuable and super important for people to figure out talk about your test like when people get their results back and i'm i'm really sorry that i didn't get it done prior to i know it's been months but um that's gonna be part two we're gonna get your results i'm gonna come back and we're gonna to get your results. I'm going to come back and we're going to go over your results. We're going to do the deep dive. And I got a trip to California in October. So I want to be able to test some of this out. Well, pending they don't lock the entire fucking state down, but outside of that, should be out there to visit my family and test some of the waters here with the information that we get to learn about. But talk a bit about what people see. When you go through this, you do the swab,

you send it back in, you get your results. What do the results look like? What do they tell people? So I'll go through the process. So you go to endodna.com. And by the way, we created a code, Kyle20, for your audience. They can get a discount if they want to take advantage of that. But you go to endodna.com. You'll go order the test. The test will be shipped to your home. You open it up. Inside, there's a license key.

There's instructions. There's a buckle swab, which looks like a big Q-tip. You swab the inside of your mouth. You register the kit because we're HIPAA-compliant and GDPR-compliant. So if all the information is de-identified, if you don't register, we won't know that belongs to you. So register it, ship it back in a self-addressed stamped envelope or box that it comes in, and it'll go to our lab.

We'll do the genetic sequence, and you'll get an email. And it also gives you a timeline where your sample is in the process. It reached the lab, it went through sequencing, and your results are ready. So when it's ready, you log into your secure portal, which is called myDNA.live. You log in with your login and password. It decrypts the information, and it gives you the report based on symptomatic conditions. So it'll give you all the different symptomatic conditions, anxiety, cognitive function, digestive. It'll give you if you have drug dependence, immune susceptibility, what type of metabolizer you are, mood, sleep, which is huge, huge, huge, and pain, nausea, all your predispositions. Within that, it'll also give you individual reports.

The second thing is on your dashboard, it'll also ask you to complete your health survey. So your health survey is your baseline. So that looks at where you are in the moment. In addition, we look at a drug interaction report. So many prescription medications interact with cannabinoids and can create an effect. So some of them are inducers. Some of them are inhibitors. So if you're consuming THC or cannabis with an SSRI, for instance, a lot of people say,

I want to get off my antidepressant medication or anti-anxiety medication, and I'd like to do it with cannabis. Well, if you're doing it together, there may be an interaction when I can actually inhibit the efficacy of your prescription medication. So speak to a healthcare professional and be really careful. Our report looks at different drug interactions, and it shows you if one is an inducer, one is an inhibitor, and tells you how to dose. Then with all those things, it creates a personalized wellness plan. The personalized wellness plan looks at your symptomatic condition.

Let's say it's anxiety. It shows you your predispositions as they're associated with that symptomatic condition. Maybe somebody has a predisposition of stress reactivity, theory of extinction, et cetera. Then it shows you your THC side effects. So somebody may have impulsivity after THC use or psychomotor control impairment or short-term memory impairment, things of that nature. So you should know if you have those predispositions. Shows you your sleep genetics. So some people may be predisposed to bruxism, like grind your teeth. That comes out when you suppress your stress during the day, comes out at night.

And then also your dosing suggestions. So dosing based on metabolic function. What type of metabolizer you are. Are you a rapid metabolizer so you can dose more if you're a poor metabolizer, intermediate metabolizer, it says to reduce your dose by 50%. And then it gives you your formulation suggestion. So maybe a one-to-one like we discussed before, a more balanced formulation with linalool and beta-creaflin. Then when you can display products, we take certificates of analysis, which are test results from different products, and we help match geofenced what products are available within your area that give you the percentage of match that closely matches your genetic predisposition. So if it's a product

that's 0.3% THC or less, like hemp derived, you can go and buy and get it shipped directly to your home. If it's a product that is 0.3% THC or more, then you will go on to the manufacturer's website or delivery service. You put in your zip code and it'll show you based on the state and country you're in, because we're international as well and it'll show you based on the state and country you're in, because we're international as well. It'll show you what's available closest to you, geo-fenced. So it's a full experience from your DNA test all the way to product suggestions. That's phenomenal, brother. And you guys are certainly ahead of the times. I know in Texas it's slim pickings, but, but certainly I look forward to understanding more about what CBDs will work. And, and certainly, you know, one of the

things I think I remember chatting with you about this is that both my wife and I have had really psychedelic experiences with a strain called Gorilla Glue number four. And so I wanted to see if that shows up. Is there a marker that says this will be an out-of-body experience as a predisposition? No, but we're going to have to add that. I like that out-of-body experience, but maybe that is the perfect... It hit the nail, right? So it bounded all the receptors and it got exactly where it needed to. And then you can kind of dissect why. What are the cannabinoid profile in Gorilla Glue number four? What is the optimal terpene profile? Now, I love that strain myself too. And also another one called forbidden fruit. Those two, if they're created correctly, if they're grown correctly and cured correctly,

those hit my receptors just right. So I feel you on that. Oh, one more thing I forgot to mention, that if somebody has already taken a 23andMe or an Ancestry or any other DNA test, you don't have to swab. You can just take the raw data that you already own and upload it to EndoDNA and you can get an instantaneous report. That's phenomenal, brother. So great having you on. I will link to everything in the show notes for people

so you don't have to write stuff down. You can one-click it. It'll all be there. And I look forward to finally getting this done, testing it out in Cali, and then having you back on to discuss the results. Let's do it, brother. I'm excited.

I appreciate it. Beautiful. Beautiful, Len. Have a great day, my friend. You too. Thank you.