Kyle Kingsbury Podcast - #247 Chris Williamson

Episode Date: April 11, 2022

Chris Williamson is new to the show and fresh off the plane in Austin. He has a super interesting background that he dives into a bit. I mention that I think he’s one of, if not the only guest I’ve had that is solely a podcaster by trade. He is a phenomenal and deep thinker, we really have more of a dude to dude conversation in this one. I really enjoyed this one and hope you do too! Love yall Connect with Chris:   Website: chriswillx.com  Instagram: @chriswillx  Facebook: Chris WIlliamson  Twitter: @chriswillx  YouTube: Chris Williamson  Podcast: Modern Wisdom with Chris Williamson - Spotify - Apple    Show Notes:   3 Minute Monday Blogs  Eddie - Strongman(Netflix) Born Strong(Amazon) #436 Modern Wisdom - Dr Jordan B. Peterson: Your Life Is Built For More Spotify  Apple #183 Paul Chek: The Life You Want and How to Create it Spotify   Apple Sponsors:   Qualia Mind is hands down the most balanced neurotropic I have in my arsenal right now. Head over to neurohacker.com for a month’s supply currently @ 50% off. Punch in code “KKP” for an additional 15% off everything. Organifi Go to organifi.com/kkp to get my favorite way to easily get the most potent blend of high vibration fruits, veggies and other goodies into your diet! Click that link and use code “KKP” at checkout for 20% off your order! PaleoValley Some of the best and highest quality goodies I personally get into are available at paleovalley.com, punch in code “KYLE” at checkout and get 15% off everything! Sovereignty Head to https://sovereignty.co/kyle/ to grab my favorite CGN/ Nootropic. There is nothing like this product for energy and cognitive function! Also grab my new favorite sleep aid, DREAM+ and use code “KKP” for 25% off. Connect with Kyle:   Fit For Service Academy App: Fit For Service Academy  Instagram: @livingwiththekingsburys   Youtube: Kyle Kingbury Podcast  Kyles website: www.kingsbu.com  Zion Node: https://getzion.com/ > Enter PubKey  >PubKey: YXykqSCaSTZNMy2pZI2o6RNIN0YDtHgvarhy18dFOU25_asVcBSiu691v4zM6bkLDHtzQB2PJC4AJA7BF19HVWUi7fmQ   Like and subscribe to the podcast anywhere you can find podcasts. Leave a 5-star review and let me know what resonates or doesn’t.

All right, y'all, we're back. We're back. We're back. We have an amazing guest from the UK and I do love a good, I love a good, how would I say that? UK-ing in British, British works accent. They're fucking phenomenal. I just, I just, I truly do appreciate it. The content obviously is far better than the accent, but the accent always adds, I just love the accent. I don't know if it's all the English blood I have in me as a Kingsbury, which is the most prominent for better or worse. And I think for better, I do appreciate the ancestry.

But this is dope. Chris Williamson just moved here from the UK. He talks about life growing up and really connects the dots to the person that he's become. He, I think, is one of the first full-time podcasters I've had on. Most people that I've had on who have their own podcast have a company or something else that they're doing. They're juggling more than one thing. But it's always curious to me, people who do the podcast full time, like what that takes, what that level of commitment is. He releases three episodes a week.

There was a time when I was at Onnit and briefly after where I ran two podcasts a week. That's when we were top two out of the three years, we were top 10 in health and wellness or health and fitness rather as a subcategory. And that was dope, but it took a lot of energy and I learned a lot, but it took a lot of energy, and I learned a lot, but it took a lot of energy, and for me to operate as a coach and fit for service and, you know, be a dad, it just, it ended up taking up too much bandwidth. Chris is doing that thing, and he's doing that thing really fucking well, really well. We were slated to podcast this weekend and had to move it sooner than that. My plan, like I do with most podcasters, is to dive into all of my favorite guests that they've

had on the show to pick out good topics. But what was great and masterful of Chris is he sent me a list of three-minute blogs that he had written recently on, on several different topics of conversation that have really to do with, uh, upgrading one's personal life in the psyche of man. And, and they, they were mind blowing because not only did they allow me to peer into, um, some really good topics for conversation, which we deep dive into on this podcast, but it showed me where Chris is at, not just in what he's learned from his podcast guests, many of the greats he means had, he mentions them on the show, uh, cause I draw it out of him. It's not like he's trying to name drop, but he's at Jordan Peterson on twice. He's homies with Douglas Murray, one of my favorite authors who wrote The Madness of Crowds and a laundry list of other great

and phenomenal thinkers in the world. And Chris is that too. Chris Williamson is a great and phenomenal thinker. And I'm, I'm so fucking thrilled. This guy just moved to Austin. Um, we've seen each other training on it. I think Aaron Alexander, our buddy and a fellow podcaster had introduced the two of us, but he's just an amazing dude. And I, and I, I've really enjoyed our conversation. I brought him out to the farm and Lockhart showed him everything that we're getting into.

And we talked, um, I mean, we talked about a lot that didn't get into the podcast that we easily could have another podcast about. And I look forward to that. Yeah, he's the shit. This is a great podcast. That's it for my intro. Be sure to check out the show notes. I did link to a lot of his material from his website and they're, they're very, very quick. They're like, I think that three minutes is in the title. Like it only takes you a few minutes to just read through. But as I stated, you know, it gave us the topic for this conversation and I give my opinions on certain pieces of these topics, but also it's a fantastic way to learn because it doesn't take, it's not a big ask. I mean, a lot of people send me information, books, articles, blogs, podcasts.

Some of this stuff is like a, it's a commitment. It's like, oh shit, you just asked me to commit 26 hours on Audible. Like that's a big fucking deal. It better be worth my time. And it not only, not always is worth my time. So anywho, this is worth your time. Not only this podcast, but Chris's blog, his podcast, which is linked in the show notes and we've linked his favorite episode.

I think it was the second one, most recent one he did with Jordan Peterson, but great, great stuff here. There are a number of ways you can support this show. First and foremost, share it with friends. That's easier to do than leaving a review. Sometimes leaving a review is a pain in the ass. Although you can just click the five-star rating if you love it. Share it with your friends and let that spread that way. I like that. Word of mouth, link to link with people is pretty damn easy in a small group chat. I think we all have

some group on Signal or iChat or whatever the thing is, WhatsApp. You can just toss it in there and let people run with it if they want. And also support these sponsors. These sponsors make a huge difference, not only in making the show possible financially, but also in making a difference in your life. I've hand-selected every single one of these. Every one of these sponsors will make a difference in your life, either through convenience of getting really high-end food in your body or by helping you achieve better levels of sleep and better levels of focus.

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You will teach probably. You'll have whatever, you'll take a class, help out some white belts, blah, blah. But really it's about you, right? It's less about service. It's about you being the driving force in this thing. Absolutely. So it was interesting.

Have you found that transition from being tip of the spear to now being facilitator of the spear as a little bit different? Kind of. I mean, the thing is still like, I heard Chris Ryan on Rogan say that what got him to start a podcast was first selfishly, he wanted to meet all the fucking people that he thought were the coolest people on earth, right? Like he wanted that for himself. He wanted to be homies with those people. He wanted to know them and be able to hit them up, you know, and just build that connection to people one-on-one and then secondarily share that conversation with the masses. Yes.

Right. And the second I heard that, I was like, that's fucking it. Because I was on the fence. You know, Rogan said the same thing. Start a podcast. And I'm like, yeah, dude, you fucking tell everyone that. And it was hearing that where I was like, oh, that's it. Like, yeah, I want to keep, you know, my hunger for knowledge and wisdom was still there, even though fighting ended. And I wanted firsthand dibs on all that.

I wanted to be able to access these people, learn from them. And if I had any questions that, that weren't covered in their book or their podcast, like dive deeper with them and then share that, you know, so that's still kind of the driving motivator, um, in coaching and in fit for service when I private coaching is whatever the fuck they want, you know, it's like, and meet So that's still kind of the driving motivator in coaching and in fit for service. Private coaching is whatever the fuck they want. It's like I meet people where they're at and coach them on what they need. But with fit for service, I'm kind of given because I'm one of the full-time coaches with Aubrey and Godsey and Caitlin, I can choose where I want to take people. I take the group like, all right, cool.

We need to learn this stuff. We'll get to that. And also, this is the latest shit that I'm into that I think people want to take people. You know, I take the group like, all right, cool. We need to learn this stuff. We'll get to that. And also this is the latest shit that I'm into. I think people need to know about. And that's been great because it gives me freedom to continually renew what I'm diving into with the group as opposed to here's why you need a fast. Here's carbohydrate management.

Here's how you get in shape. And just reteaching that fucking over and over again. I would hate the job. You're always pushing your limit as well yeah absolutely we're already rolling i hit the fucking i hit the start button i was like there's no you always lose good shit you know in the conversation prior um thank you for coming on brother my pleasure these these always start with i mean there's kind of an arc to my show in that i want to know what life was like growing up what kind of got you to be the person that you are today.

So let's start there. And then, of course, I've got a list of some excellent, excellent topics for discussion that you sent me last night, which is a fucking absolute lifesaver because it would have taken me all night and listening to your podcast to catch up and have some good talks. We've got, I think, our same sponsorship company working with both of us and mutual friends like Aaron Alexander and different people. And you're, of course, in Austin now full time from the UK, if you couldn't decipher that via the audio. But talk about life growing up. What was it like and what got you into performance and aiding in success?

Because your podcast is phenomenal. It covers a wide range of topics. People typically will choose one area like fitness or mindset or any of these things. And, you know, you've had Jordan Peterson on a couple of times. You've had some really, you know, amazing guests. And also the coverage is broad spectrum, which I really appreciate. Yeah, man. So I'm from the Northeast of the UK, a small town called Stockton, which is famous for only having the highest teen pregnancy rating in the UK. And then recently it actually lost that. So it doesn't even have that title anymore, which is... Yeah, they lost the belt. Yeah, which is a shame. So a very sort of normal working class upbringing for me. First person in

sort of my family to go to university. Went to university. So I'm an only child, which I think generally makes you a little bit under socialized. I always found social connection a little bit of a difficult thing. Something that I didn't quite understand. Always sort of was on the outside a little bit as a kid. Got to university and started running nightclubs. So I got involved in flyering and I was like the best flyerer. And then you become a junior event manager and an event manager. Within the space of a year, I'd started a franchise for a t-shirt bar crawl that was very successful. Me and my business partner just kept on growing and growing and growing.

And that took me through basically from 18 to sort of 27, 28. And I've worked the front door of a 1000 club nights, I've seen about a million people go in and out of my events. And I've been the guy on the door with the clipboard, well, the guy that owns the guy with the clipboard, making sure everything's going okay. But very quickly, as a lot of young guys might find, I attached my sense of self worth to the success of my business, right? I found something that I was good at for the first time in my life and I started to really um tie my sense of self to that because I thought right I've never really had success or adoration or acceptance or love or desire or any of that stuff previously uh isolated a little bit more growing up uh now I've got something. Now this is my thing. Now I can,

perhaps this is the thing that's going to make people need me or want me, right? And very quickly that, it was great. I had tons of fun, right? I mean, partying and being a club promoter in your 20s

and everybody in a million person city knowing who you were. I had this huge afro. So I was like very recognizable. And then I got, I did some reality TV. I was doing male modeling. I was DJing.

Like anything that a professional fuck boy would have done was kind of the career that I went on. And then I did a big reality TV thing called Love Island in the UK. I was the first person through the doors of season one. Blue tick on Twitter, free charcoal toothpaste on Instagram, all that, all the big winners, right? And then I came out of that and I thought,

is this really sort of the best that I've got to offer the world that, right? And then I came out of that and I thought, is this really sort of the best that I've got to offer the world? That, you know, being lean and walking about in a small pair of swim shorts on TV and getting people drunk in nightclubs. And again, don't get me wrong, it was fun and I really enjoyed and loved running my business. But there was just something that wasn't being fulfilled

and I got asked to be on a podcast by a bunch of friends and I really enjoyed the process. This was at the same time, 2016, 17, Jordan Peterson, Alain de Botton from the School of Life, your Sam Harris's, your Rogan's,

really, really coming to the forefront with great content that kind of just helped me to make sense of the world in a way that I hadn't done previously. And I think a lot of people of my age, I'm 34, a lot of people of that age really, really found

toward the back end of their 20s some content that spoke to them. And it was heavily pushed by those sorts of people. And I thought, right, well, it's identifying a problem in me. I don't know what the problem is, but something isn't quite aligned here. So I decided to just spend a ton of time

doing some self-work and some introspection and toward the beginning middle of that I started my podcast and I thought well look if I can talk to these people as much as I want to then maybe I'll expedite my growth and maybe I'll even tell other people about how to avoid the pitfalls and expedite the successes that that I've got and yeah now we're nearly 500 episodes deep and 50 million plays and yeah you're Jordan Peterson's you're Ryan Holiday's Seth Godin Robert Green James Clear uh and that's been it man and that's now where my my passion lies so I spend my time learning about different interesting people and talking to them yeah that's all getting massive brother it's a cool trajectory

it kind of reminds me of Troy Casey Troy Casey Casey was a, he was a runway model in, he wrote the book Ripped at 50, which is a funny title. But he, you know, he is ripped and he's 50. But, you know, that was really the publisher pushing him for that. He's a phenomenal dude. Check understudy, you know, spiritual. He's definitely out there,

but he's also been one of the people in health and wellness to really push back against big agriculture and FDA and shit, you know, long before the last two years, just a phenomenal dude. But he talked about, you know, the pitfalls of his career and he was full on like slamming heroin, snorting Coke, like speedball. All right. Okay. So he's made me, he's made me look like a newbie. Yeah. Okay, cool. But yeah, obviously saw his way through that. Loosely, I kind of, I mean, I knew the guys like you at ASU, you know, playing football there. And then afterwards, when I first got into fighting

and was still living in Arizona, you always wanted to know a guy like you. Like that was the dude that was going to get to the fucking head of the line. Exactly. Like, what's your guest list? Oh, I got 12 with me. Oh, 12 is too many. No, it's not. Okay, you're good. When you of, when you got that kind of poll, like it makes the

whole situation better. First time I had to fucking wait in line. It was, I remember Bader and I fought on the same card in, um, I think it was 4th of July weekend. And we had some buddies that got bottle service at a club in Vegas and it's Vegas. It's not the same thing, you know, it was like your typical spot. So knowing somebody isn't always the easiest thing, but we're all in there and they wouldn't let Bader in. And I come out and I'm like, this guy fought Tito Ortiz tonight in the UFC and they didn't give a shit. You know, I was like, seriously, like, who do we have to fucking call? And we've already paid for bottle service. Like, you know, this is, this is insane.

Anyhow, like I just contrast those two extremes, you know, and it is a lot of fun in those situations, especially at that age. Like I went hard to the fucking paint, you know, partying hard during that time. So it is, you're the best guy to know. Club promoter is a useful friend to have when you're doing that, yes. Yeah, absolutely.

Absolutely. I worked at a strip club while I was fighting for quite a while. And, you know, as a young man. Male stripper? No, no, no. That would have paid way better. It still paid great. But a bouncer, bartender, and security guard.

And, you know, initially that was like, I never identified with that. You know, like I'm fucking Mr. Security Guard or I'm a bartender. I could see how the identity thing would have been more as a promoter where everybody fucking wants you. Yes. But there was that, that glimmer, the shine of, man, I get to look at fucking hot naked chicks all day long. I get paid to do nothing other than just be myself.

Right. Like if I need to choke somebody out, I got that, you know, in spades more, more so than any other dude here. Yes. And, um, you know, but over time that, that so than any other dude here. And, you know, but over time that, that, that glimmer goes away and it's like, oh, you start to see the underbelly, you start to see, you know, what the grime of it, you know, like the, the, these horny dudes who have no chance of talking to women in real life are coming here to pay to do that. And, you know, and I'm policing

whether they grab too much or not, you know, and the girls who, who, you know, maybe there's a handful that are putting themselves through school, through nursing school, through Cal Berkeley, something like that. But most of them are pretty cool with doing that the rest of their lives and like letting that sink in, you know. What does it mean that you're almost facilitating this? Yeah. Yeah. Well, I mean, I, I, I genuinely believe that the stuff that we do and we still do, you

know, I'm still director of the same company Voodoo Events in the UK, which is great. My business partner is fantastic. And the team we have is fantastic. And the portfolio of nights is amazing. I genuinely believe that it's an important learning and growing experience for young people to go out and party in that sort of a way.

You know, if you're 18 to 21 in the UK, which is our drinking age, going out as a university student or just a young person who's 18 to 21 in the uk which is our drinking age going out as a university student or just a young person who's starting to learn about the world it's a really important uh formative experience right you need to know what it's like to lose your keys at three in the morning and be stranded in a city where you don't know anybody like it's an important thing to look i don't know why it is but it just seems to be that way and we've facilitated you know some of the people that have come and worked for us have gone on to get married some of the guys that we that we have as managers

have gone on to become investment bankers in singapore they've started their own businesses you know we really get to shape young talented aggressively ambitious people which in the uk is a lot rarer than it is in america right we don't have that blue sky vision in the uk we have tall poppy syndrome, right? If you stand up too much, you very, very, it's a very cynical, very skeptical, very sort of stiff upper lip kind of place,

at least in the working class towns that I'm from. And we facilitated some cool stuff, man. So I enjoy it. But there's a, David Data talks about this in the way of Superior Man, where he says, at some point, the things which used to light a fire in you sort of no longer will.

It's very strange to have something that you used to wrap your entire identity around no longer feel the sort of the same way quite so much. And then I needed something else. One of the things I often tell people that listen to my show is that I think you should really, really try and inculcate a routine of hard work when you're in your twenties, if you want to work hard, like if that's the sort of thing you want to do. Because I've been able to take the same thing that I did with Club Promo and I've just changed the direction that that's focused on now. And now it's focused on podcasting. So I work very hard, but it's just a different outlet, right? So I've still got the same routine,

the same kind of approach. Sleep's probably a little bit better. Dude, for the first time in my life during COVID, I had a stable sleep and wake pattern for the first time ever since I was an adult, right? I arrive at university at 18 years old, partying and you just don't have a sleep pattern there at all. And then by second year, I'm running a business

that involves me staying up till three in the morning, two or three nights a week. Roll the clock forward, 14 years, 13 years. For the first time ever, I go to bed and wake up at the same time every day, which I'd never done before. And I thought that I always had variable levels of mood and that my sort of energy was all over the place. Oh, no, this is just what happens when you don't get regular sleep. And then I did. And I was like, fuck, this is an entire new world.

So, yeah, the sleep is significantly better. Emotionally did. And I was like, this is an entire new world. So yeah, the sleep is significantly better. Emotionally better. Your processing power is better. Correct. Functional work. You know, the people are always asking me about nootropics and shit like that. And it's like,

this, this piece is a cornerstone, you know, check calls it Dr. Quiet. It's one of the four cornerstones that you must get right. There's no nootropic that can, that can fix that.

You know, For me, I had two big stages where identity was in the mix, football, playing football at ASU. When that ended, I sat the bench there. I didn't really get to finish putting my all into it. I left a chip on my shoulder, which I carried through me with fighting, but that was one of the most depressing and hardest points of my life was at the end of football because I didn't know what I wanted to be when I grew up. And I knew I didn't have this thing. If I didn't play at ASU, I knew guys that started all four years and didn't go pro. So there was no chance of playing professional football.

And it took probably a year and a half of soul searching and hitting rock bottom before I found MMA and got into that. And then I clung to that thing. This is who I am. Now I get to be the athlete. Now I get to prove myself one-on-one. I don't have a coach deciding if I get to play or not tonight. Like I'm going to fight no matter what. Yep. And thankfully I had a boxing coach who had guided me through plant medicine journeys kind of along the way and traditional sweat lodges and things like that. So when it came time to shift gears, even though I still love the sport and absolutely love fighting, I love pushing myself to the highest level where like the, every, every facet of me mentally, emotionally, physically had to

be in tune and in alignment in order to perform at my best. I could let go of that and not identify with it. And because I had football as a background and say, Oh yeah, this was a period of my life and just the period. It's not something I knew I wasn't going to play my whole life. It's not me. I can work at the titty bar twice a week and know that I'm not going to be there forever and just keep reading books and following my interests. And then eventually one thing leads to another. I got a podcast and come to Onnit, all the other ducks kind of fall in line. Was it hard for you? I mean, you still have that, but it was kind of a different situation in that you're forced

to pause because the world changes overnight. Talk about that transition. And if there was, you know, any, anything, you know, struggles with letting go of that or any identity things that you had there. I'd already done a lot of that, I think previously. So I was ready for that to happen in a bizarre way. And I'd already done a lot of work after I'd been on that TV show and came out and was like, what's going on? Like, what am I here for? Because it doesn't work after I'd been on that TV show and came out and was like, what's going on? Like, what am I here for? Because it doesn't feel like, I'd spent this six weeks in this villa, right,

locked with all of these people and you've got no friends, no phone, no technology, no distraction, no books, no nothing, no contact with the outside world and you're on TV 24 hours a day. And I thought there's something up here and I'd already done a ton of the self-work. So even though I didn't know

that a pandemic was going to shut the world down, I kind of had done a good bit of prep. So yeah, I'm glad that I'd already got that done. And then the other change from there until now, I mean, I guess whatever, club promoter, reality TV star to like podcaster in the psychology and philosophy space

isn't the most normal of trajectories, but it makes sense to me at least. Yeah. And I mean, if you think about it, like there, there is a ton of life experience in situations like that. You know, like I, I, I value in hindsight that my last day of work at the strip club, I did a probably a concert dose, 200 micrograms of LSD. And I saw it from all fucking angles. Like I had so much gratitude for the entire experience. And I had gratitude for the creeps that tipped the girls who tipped me because they fed my family. You know, we had Bear.

We live in my mom's detached garage while I was fighting in the UFC, making dog shit money. And that really was the thing. If I got hurt, you don't get paid. So I've had many injuries, you know, where I had to stay out for nine months to a year and a half. And that's the thing that sustained us. You know, that's the thing that literally paid for the birth of our child and paid for all the food that we were putting in and car seats, all that shit, you know, just little things that I'd taken for granted where I was like, wow. So it was a, it was a big, um, kind of a big flip on its head for me to, to, to see it in that way and really pull from it and, you know, with gratitude for that whole experience. But you do learn in, in, from all people and what's cool about alcohol for better or worse, you know, it's not the best drug, but it is society's drug of choice is that it opens people up and, and you get a closer look at them, you know, from that

lens. That unencumbered man, they're really, really unencumbered. If you want to see what people's true nature is like, put them in a nightclub at one 30 in the morning with a couple of a good few beers in them, you know, and you get to see a lot of, a lot of very strange and interesting things come up. Hell yeah. Well, let's, let's dive into some of these topics. This is phenomenal. You sent me a This is phenomenal. We had to change some stuff around with our podcast time, which is great because it's all on the fly anyways, but I would have been up all night listening to your episodes to try to gather material for this. And you sent me some of your three-minute blogs, which are fucking incredible. We'll link to these

in the show notes. Highly encourage the listeners, if you enjoy this conversation, check them out. They're great. They don't take up too much time, but they really... It's clear you've put a lot of thought into the things that you're writing about and you can see that and it's very well articulated, but they're great conversation starters. So we can dive right in. You were just hanging with Douglas Murray, who's one of my absolute heroes. I heard him on Rogan a couple of years back and The Madness of Crowds was one of my favorite heroes. I heard him on Rogan a couple of years back and the madness of crowds was one of my favorite books that came out that year. It's probably one of my favorite books still to this day because of how he really takes a deep dive into woke culture and, you know, what happens

in a human rights movement that has validity and should be there, right? Like gay rights or anything like that. And then what happens if you don't take your foot off the gas? Yeah. What happens when you've already won, but you don't stop the train from moving in that direction? You know what he said on an episode to me that just completely summarizes how it works. He said, you know when you've reached true equality in life, Chris,

when you have to put up with the same amount of shit that everybody else does, you just think, fuck, that's it. That's it, man. You know, it's equality to deal with the shit and the bad. That's what you're aiming for. You know, it's for people to not see whatever it is that you are as anything. It's just, you're just one of us. And unfortunately, yeah, the madness of crowds kind of highlights the fact that this has become weaponized. Yeah. Yeah, he's a brilliant, brilliant dude.

And the fact that he is homosexual, like that gives him a lens to speak through that, you know. He's got his gay cards to use. Yeah, exactly. Like he can get away with a lot more than most people. What was the quote that he said, you know, with regarding regret? Because that to me obviously is the topic of, of the blog. And I think it's absolutely brilliant. And it got me jarred. Like I stayed up late, you know, thinking about things like that. Yeah. So I went out to New York and me and

Douglas had been friends for a long time, but never met in person. I stayed in his apartment and we went out for dinner and chatted and he got me starting to drink Manhattan's, which is just the most brutal cocktail. It's gorgeous, but it's just spirits. Anyway, it was staying up and he's telling me these stories and he's just got bottomless stories about times with Sam Harris or Christopher Hitchens

or Richard Dawkins or whoever, because he's done all of these live events. And he was telling me this story about when he was with Hitch, who's passed now. And I was telling Douglas about the fact that there's trade-offs in life that you need to make, right? By doing a thing, you don't get to do another thing.

And there's pain in that. There's an existential sort of difficulty in the fact that you know by making a decision that you close the door to the other ones. And he told me this story from Christopher Hitchens who'd said, having a similar discussion, and Hitch turned to him and he said, Douglas, in life, we must choose our regrets.

And he went to the bathroom and I had to write it in my phone, like some sort of like drug addict, like sneaking his like hit while he'd left off. Get key bombs real quick while he's out of my way. Exactly. So I wrote that down and that was the topic of the Three Minute Monday newsletter that I did. And I really reflected on that. I really reflected on what he meant by, in life we must choose our regrets.

What I realized was that for a long time, I'd presumed that any regret that I had was due to a suboptimal decision that I'd made in life. That had I have been able to somehow make the perfect decision, I could have ameliorated the regret. I could have stopped the regret from happening. Therefore, regret was kind of, it was my fault. And had I gone back and done things differently, I could have got rid of it. But then I realized that if opportunity cost happens in life, i.e. by doing a thing, you can't do another thing,

regrets are kind of unavoidable because not only do you not get to run life again to see if you actually made the right decision, you're not a rational creature in any case. And the way that the human brain works, you can choose objectively the perfect thing and yet still regret not doing the other thing. You have a choice between the bowling alley and the theme park and you choose the bowling alley and that was the one you wanted to do and that was the best one for you to do. But you can still regret not going to the theme park because that's just the way that we're wired and I was like okay so that means that

that means regrets they're not a bug they're a feature right they're a feature of being a limited human who only can make one decision at a time and can only do one thing at a time because we can't they're not infinite beings and then that made me think well hang on a second if if it means that we have to choose our regrets if if it means that we have to choose our regrets what's it mean that we have to choose our regrets oh maybe that means that the best way to look at decisions is given the fact that regrets are unavoidable given the fact that there's an opportunity cost to everything that we do when you're offered a particular choice in life which regret can you live with?

Looking at that as one of the ways, the frameworks to make your decision is a really powerful way to do it. So as a good example, for me to come out here, could I have lived with the regret of not ever trying to come to Austin while I've got my podcast and I have friends that do podcasts and blah, blah, blah?

That would be the regret that I couldn't live with. And that's a much easier framework to make a decision on. Which regret can you bear living with and which regret can't you bear living with? The one that you can't bear living with, that makes the decision pretty easy. So yeah, in life, we must choose our regrets. And from one sentence, man, all that opened up. Yeah. I think about that when I was thinking of opportunity costs and like, it was just, it fucking, it got me really looking through. I've made some pretty big decisions at various points, like, like moving to Austin, not quite moving from the UK, but coming from California where we were in my mom's attached garage

and the cost of living just being atrocious in the Silicon Valley, you know, knowing that I wanted a podcast when I made that decision, it was like, I don't, you know, we can't stay here. It's like 2,500 a month just for a shitty one bedroom studio in the bad part of San Jose. And so we moved to Vegas in 2017 and literally four months later, we were moving to Austin. So like, and that's hard for, for kids, right? Obviously Bear wasn't in school then he was one, almost two. And then he turned two in Vegas. So it's not like uprooting somebody from their high school friends and shit like that, but it's still moving as an event. And so to do that twice in one year, I had to put a lot of trust into this. And I think back, there has been thoughts around that because we had my wife's families from Vegas and we're on the outskirts, not in the grimy part. We're near Red Rock and Mount Charleston,

where nature there is phenomenal. And I went to school at ASU, so I love the desert. It's not in the grimy part, you know, we're near Red Rock and Mount Charleston where nature there is phenomenal. And I went to school at ASU, so I love the desert. It's always got a place in my heart for that. But the opportunity cost and is like, oh, but how do I pass this up? So there is, it's easier when I say like, that's a no brainer because I've done well. But I do think about those things where had the other option panned out really well, you know, even when I got into podcasting, I had a buddy, Matt Hewitt, who's a pipeline inspector for big oil. And, you know, I'd done some work with the plants and been connected to Gaia, the spirit of the earth,

whatever you want to call that. So on a soul level or on a mental emotional level, at least, it would have been very hard for me to wrap my head around working in big oil. That said, a pipeline inspector, if I do my job right, there is no spill. That's literally what I'm there to be trained to do and to execute on. And they're paid really well, especially for some dude who didn't finish college and fought and made fucking peanuts fighting in the UFC, like 200, 250 grand starting. And then overtime can put you at 350, 450 grand a year. Like that, that was like, holy shit. And, um, you know, so there was that fork in the road when I went into podcasting and obviously, you know, when you know this, you start out podcasting, like there's nothing there. There's no, you know, you get an affiliate link or that you might make, you know,

300 bucks on a month or something if you're lucky. But that was a tough decision. But I think from, you know, from my experience in plant medicines, it was easier to connect to that piece of this is what I actually want to do. And if I fail doing what I want to do, that's better than succeeding at something that ultimately won't bring me joy. Yes. You know, and the straw that broke the camel's back and made it easy was my buddy, you know, he told me like,

the tempting, the temptation of overtime is always there because you make so much more money when you do that. The problem is that comes at a cost as well. And if you have a family, which you do, he goes, everyone that I know, he had six friends that all had families and six out of six were divorced. And I was like, I'm out, dude. All right, podcasting it is. I mean, I always use this example of Eddie Hall. So strength guy, right? What was the name of the strength documentary he did?

Remember the name? I can't remember. I know the one you mean. Jose, link to that in the show notes. We'll research it and get it linked anyways. It's brilliant. He was the world's strongest man in 2017, 2018, something like that, right?

He beat Thor, the mountain. And I remember him in this interview and he said, if I hadn't won that year, I think I would either be dead and or divorced and or with no relationship to my kid. So what we look at when we see people that are successful, we see them in

this very, very narrow band of success, right? So Eddie Hall's successful and admirable to us because he won World's Strongest Man. And the way that we see success in the modern world is that we don't mind the prices that he had to pay outside of that. So there's almost something romantic, glorious, chivalrous in a way of the fact that he was prepared to sacrifice so much for this victory. But you actually think, well, hang on a second. So he won, right?

But he was nearly 200 kilos at six foot three, blood pressure through the roof on God knows how many performance enhancers, training so much that his relationship with his wife was going down the pan, never saw his kid. And you think, okay, do you really want to be Eddie Hall? Because you look at him and you say, he's standing on stage and he's got the trophy in his hand and he's number one. You go, that's fantastic. But what's the price of being Eddie Hall? Like genuinely, what's the actual price

you need to pay to be Eddie Hall? Do you want that? Do you want to be in the gym, lifting logs with no relationship to your wife on the verge of death with the blood pressure that's through the roof and your kid doesn't know who you are because that's the price of being Eddie Hall and most people when they look at success they see it in this very narrow band and they don't see the other things that you have to do in order to have that and similar to yourself you think well, I want to provide for my family, but what's the price of me providing in this way? What's the price if I just stay at the titty bar, right?

And I'm choking people out and I'm around girls all the time and maybe sometimes I'm drunk and there's more risk and there's health and there's late nights and there's all that stuff. Yeah, this is a phenomenal segue into the next piece on envy. But I do want to touch on, on, uh, you know, the, the thought process around Eddie Hall, because it's, it's, you know, when you talk about his kid, I was unaware of that, like that,

that he had said those things in the documentary, obviously you see like how much he values his family. There's a lot of father, son time and time with his wife. But it gets me thinking about like Gary Vee, which is another important distinction for me. I heard him on Mark Bell's podcast back in the day and he said, you know, the legacy and for him, and look, there's, this isn't me shitting on anybody. I have brought this up before in the podcast, but for Gary Vee and a lot of the type A very successful people, what they're stating is that the thing they leave for their kids is the legacy. It's not just money, but it's the legacy that they leave behind for their kids as the most opportunity for them to grow, to have financial success, to be the best version of themselves.

And that becomes the highest part of the ideal that means more than, say, being at a baseball game or the connection know, the connection time. Right. And, and it, you know, he's correct in that respect. But one of the things he said was every, you know, if, if parenting is a baseball game, everybody's trying to win in the first three innings, you know, and he's, and he's correct in that. However, you start reading children's books, developmental psychology, it turns out the first three innings are fucking super important, super important. And you don't get that time back. I remember, you know, my dad has been in town for 30 days helping us work on the farm right

now. It's been awesome. And it's, you know, it's been some figuring out and resorting, you know, kind of who's in charge and stuff with, with bear. Um, but you know, the, some of the most positive memories I have are when he, he would, we'd be watching the Niners in the playoffs and he'd turn it off and go throw a football for us. I'd see football on, on TV, not realize how important a playoff game is as a fan. And I'd say, throw the football for me and my friends. And he'd say, okay. And he turned the fucking TV off and go outside and throw the football all day with us. Right.

And I remember times where, you know, he would work, he had to sleep at his, at his office because we bought a house that was an hour and a half away. So I wouldn't see him for a week sometimes. Right. And how hard that was as a kid. And then parents get divorced and now I see him every other weekend. Right. And so thinking about things like that, like you, you, and I was 13 at the time, I wasn't three, four, five, six, right. But you don't get that time back with your kids and you can be the best version of dad in whatever way that shows up for you. You can leave them X amount of dollars or, you know, uh, all the opportunity in the world, but they don't get to have you and there's no replacement for you. Right. And so that to me has been the guiding force on why money isn't the sole director of what

I do. And I've spoken about this, you know, in Fit for Service as well as on the podcast about why I will actually make less money to be home more. When it comes to Gary, everyone can raise their kids the way that they want. Gary, you're more than welcome to do what you think is right with your children. But if you gave your kids the choice between having daddy home every weekend for the first 15 years of their life or having an extra billion dollars when they grow up,

I know what I would have preferred. Forget the developmental side of things, just the sheer joy of knowing what it's like to have a father that's available on tap. And yeah, I do understand that in a world where having money and having legacy gives people a head up, that if you take success in life through a very narrow domain you can see it as what I'm actually doing more good for them than I would be at home you know we've got a nanny for that or we've got a whatever for that and you go well you don't because the nanny or the carer or the au pair or whatever isn't you the job is yours and no one can replace that so i think you know i can't

wait to be a dad whenever that happens and um i can't wait to to sacrifice things for my kids i can't i feel like there's something noble in that you know to do something to to bear a heavy burden even if the burden is the fact that you don't get the success that you used to have because of your kids i think there's something noble and chivalrous in that as well. Yeah. And I think you can have your cake and eat it too. You know, like I'm doing super well this year and I'm home a lot. Yeah.

But it's like that's a firm thing that I lean back on, you know, when I turn down an opportunity to meet someone new at a party or, you know, fill in the fucking blank. You know this from the nightclub game, but especially now that you've elevated yourself, where you're at in the podcast game, there's always something going on. And that's rad to dive headfirst into that when you're single and you're young. But when you have a wife and kids like that game changes, responsibility, you know, absolutely changes, you know, and that's, that's something where it's, it's, and even just partying, you know, like my, my rule of thumb is if I'm out of town, like if we have a fit for service event in Sedona, I will celebrate into 3 a.m. on our final night with the squad because it might only happen a couple times a year. And then the next day, vitamin IV therapy, all the tips and biohacks.

Please bring me back to life. Yeah. Yeah. But if I have to do that here in town, it's not worth the mildest hangover the next day with my kids. If I show up at 80%, it's fucking not worth it. It's absolutely not worth it. Well, that's the athlete mindset that you've got, right? That's the same mindset that you had in football, the same mindset that you had in MMA, the differences that you've now applied that. And this is what I was saying about creating habits and thought patterns and routines in your 20s that carry you through the rest of life. You know, to understand that

there are marginal gains in performance and that they make really, really big differences. And then just having that framework that you're going, okay, well, I applied this to performance. Then I applied that maybe to business or to learning or to whatever, starting a fucking fucking farm and I'm going to apply it to parenting as well we touched on Envy

the topic of Envy with Eddie Hall who just fought Thor I didn't get to see it I called it too 6'8 is a big difference in weightlifting it's one thing but that kind of reach when you have that size,

like. Eddie, I don't know what his game plan was, but it was very, very, have you watched, you said you haven't

watched the fight. I saw clips at the end of it. I didn't get to see the whole thing. I would highly recommend, I would happily watch a breakdown of that by you. I would love to see

what you think about that. And I haven't really seen any sort of good strikers or whatever go and do it. But dude, it was just, it was game over. Like you saw within the first round. I don't know what Eddie was trying to do with that. I know they both had training.

That fight got pushed back. So they both got to train more. And I don't want to say just boxing. Boxing is the sweet science. And fucking, there are many levels to that game. As Conor McGregor found out, right? Many levels to just boxing. But it did allow them to singularly focus on one thing.

And that said, though, because it's just boxing, like there is a clear cut advantage, clear fucking cut. You know, I remember Lennox Lewis was just eating people up and it was the most boring game plan. But to a boxer, it was the most beautiful, precise game plan of how he would just jab people to death. Then the Klitschko's came along. You start to see like these really tall heavyweights

take over the game. And like, that's still very much applied in their contests. Reach is a hell of a power. Yeah. Yeah. So I spoke about envy and I found it interesting. There's this quote from Naval where he was on Tim Ferriss' show and he's talking about the fact that envy and jealousy,

interestingly, envy is the only one of the seven deadly sins that doesn't feel good, right? So the rest of them, wrath and gluttony and sloth, all that stuff, they feel good, but envy doesn't. And it's kind of a bit of a strange emotion when you actually think about it. And Naval is talking about the fact that all of these people that I was jealous of,

I realized that I couldn't just take parts of their life. I couldn't just have Eddie Hall's ability to be on stage. I had to take the whole. So it wasn't like an outfit that you get to pick and choose. It's like a onesie, right? And you've got to strap the whole thing and it's got little booties that you got to put on your feet as well. And, um, that really got me thinking as well, because I thought a lot about Tiger Woods. I learned, I don't know how familiar you are with his sort of come up story, but his father would racially abuse him while he was on the golf course as a kid, saying these white people are never going to let you here, calling him the N word. And they had a safe word like you do during rough sex. And it was called the E word. And throughout his entire childhood, his dad would

say to him, you know, if you want it to stop, all you need to do is just say the word, just say the E-word. He never once said it. And it was enough was the E-word. I learned that in Ryan Holiday's book. And that really, really stuck with me. And I thought, well, what does it mean to be Tiger Woods, potentially one of the best golfers of all time?

Well, it means that you've had to spend your childhood being racially abused by your own dad. Now, with the perspective that we have of Tiger becoming this amazing golfer, you can actually say, well, maybe something that's kind of verges on what might be accused of being child abuse or at least sort of neglect.

It kind of makes sense because you start to see some sort of a game plan. But you ask yourself, would you rather be a normal person when you grow up because Tiger certainly hasn't been he's had you know the most public marriage failure that anyone's ever seen his wife's chasing him down the driveway with a golf club he spent half a decade out of the sport with injuries from how hard he's pushed himself in training he's fallen asleep at the wheel and broken both of his legs he was pulled over on

the side of the road he had um anti-psych in his system, which I don't think he was supposed to be driving on and blah, blah, blah. And you think like, that's the price that you have to pay to be Tiger Woods. Like, do you want to pay that price? I don't think that most people realize that the externalities you don't just get to be successful. The fire that burns inside of them that causes them to be able to move that quickly, it burns everything else as well. And you can't just switch it on and switch it off. Same with Gary Vee. The same with pick whoever it is that you want.

Elon Musk, you know, unbelievable talent. Like, you know, one of the most sort of innovative thinkers of the last hundred years that we've had on this planet. But you don't know what his relationship with his father's like. You don't know what the landscape of his mind's like when he goes to sleep on a night time. Maybe the guy hasn't had an erection in months, you know? Those are some of the potential prices

that you might have to pay to be Elon Musk. And I think that this, to me, just makes jealousy kind of a bit of a pointless emotion. Unless you get to see absolutely everything of somebody, most of the people that you admire, you wouldn't pay the price that you need to pay in order to be them. And that is the most liberating thing to think. You look at somebody and you can see

elements of them that you think, wow, that thing is cool. I really like the way that Kyle is confident in groups of people. I really like the way that Aubrey is able to speak on a stage. I really like the whatever, whatever, right? But it doesn't mean that you want to be them because you don't know what the price is that those people have had to pay in order to get there. And that was a real interesting insight for me. Yeah, that's massive. And I think speaking of that too, like I think for people that are actually doing something

and in charge of their faculties from a health and wellness standpoint to their direction in life. And you're doing your vocation. It's not just a job that gets you by, which is fine too. Like the check always talks about the shadow side of the prostitute archetype is doing the same thing over and over again, just for the money with no end in sight. The light side of the prostitute archetype is I will do this thing that I don't like to make a certain amount of money while putting some aside to actually start the business that I do want to do or, or, or be

in the situation that I, that I want to be in. So there's a light side and a dark side to that. But, um, the idea that people, and it is, it's not something that, that I think about often, but there are a lot of people that do envy stars or, or someone that's on TV or any of that fucking, you know, reality TV. Like you get that, right? Yep. That to me, it's beautiful in the way you wrote this because you are painting a picture of like what this actually looks like is different than you think it is. But even at its core, the idea that you would see someone else and say like, I want that person for myself. I want to be that person. I want to be with this person.

There's something off in the centering meter of where they're at to even want that. Like what you're speaking about with Aubrey's ability to speak on stage or any of these other qualities, like admirable qualities. Fuck yeah. Take all those. That's the piecing together, the framing of the inner Voltron that you're going to claim for yourself, you know, what you aspire to the fanaticism over certain people or ballplayers or fill in the blank, um, entertainers, like that shows me that something's off center with that person to begin with. And unfortunately that's probably the majority of the general population.

It's why, you know, tabloids do so well. It's why fucking the 30 minute entertainment catch-up show does so well late night, you know, or daytime, whatever the fuck it's on these days. It's a low-resolution view of the world, I think, which is why you look at somebody and you see them as like a single being as opposed to all of these different modular parts. You look at the world and you want a simple explanation as opposed to seeing it as a million, billion competing,

tiny little effects that are smashing up against each other and this is one of the reasons why i think you've seen podcasting and things like substack as well that give people the opportunity to really really sink into the nuance or the subtlety about why something is the way that it is and you don't see that with uh with a 30 minute segment split up into three minute bits in between all of the adverts, which you guys seem to love here in America. But yeah, I mean, so Jordan Peterson, who was on the show, he spoke about this.

I can give you the link to put in the show notes. If anyone wants to check out this episode, it's the best thing that I've done that explains this jealousy thing, and it'll be in the show notes below. And yeah, man, he agreed the same thing, you know, to do with Tiger Woods. Like, you don't know the price that you need to pay to be the the show notes below. And yeah, man, he agreed the same thing, you know, to do with Tiger Woods. Like you don't know the price that you need to pay

to be the people that you admire. And most of the time you wouldn't pay that price. And just remembering that, it really, really helped me with jealousy and with envy. Especially on the come up, especially if you're an aspirational young person, especially a young guy, you know, you're looking for those archetypes.

You're looking for those people that have trailblazed and paved the path. You go, dude, that's an awesome path to walk behind. But it doesn't mean that you have to follow it the entire way or that you have to look at that person as the only way to find the solution because what that does is it's a disservice to what your unique makeup is for yourself. So let's say that you try to be Aubrey Marcus or something like that.

And you go, well, hang on a second, what have I got that Aubrey didn't? Because our backgrounds are different and our proclivities are different and our predispositions are different. So maybe there's a way that I can actually do what he did my way, which is even better for me. And maybe I'm selling myself short.

And this is where the subtlety is, right? This is the interesting thing. This is the game of life. How can I take what people have done that's been done well and make it more useful to me and improve on it for myself? That's the game. That's what we're doing. Yeah.

Fuck yeah, brother. Let's talk a bit about, and we've already touched on this as well, but a bit about success versus happiness. You brought this up early on in our conversation about the success that you had had and being an only child and coming from the area that you had and, and what is it? The tallest poppy syndrome? Yes. Tall poppy syndrome. Tall poppy syndrome, right? Yeah. Break that down because a lot of people think, you know, more and more, if you're listening to either one of our

podcasts, I think you can differentiate between like someone else's idea of success and like what it means for you to be successful. And that is a key distinction because through programming, we have that just fucking layered and layered and layered on top of us from how we're steered into whatever profession we're going to do. And for some, that's, you know, far more the case. Like, hey, you're going to be a doctor or a lawyer no matter what. You might have parents like that. Or it might not have been that strict, but you could have been steered away from doing something you actually love. Like my wife studied art in college and mom said, you're not going to make any money doing that. And so she gave that up now she loves doing art, but you know, that, that did steer her. We're all affected through parenting society, teachers,

you know, what do they call those? Those you might not have them in the uk but like a counselor yes in high school yeah yeah they tell you what you're gonna fucking be stop trying to be a fucking ufc fighter you're never gonna make it yeah yeah yeah well i think one of the interesting things i realized about success is this dude who's on the come up called alex homozy so he um just a business dude who's come out of nowhere and his content's really great. He did this post and it got me thinking about the relationship between success and happiness. And what I realized was that a lot of the time, people presumably are chasing success

because they presume that it's going to make them happy. In the pursuit of what we want, happiness, we sacrifice the thing we want, happiness, for the thing that's supposed to get it, success. You're, hang on a second, you're telling me that I'm making myself miserable in the moment in order to achieve a thing that's supposed to make me not miserable in future. There has to be a shortcut to this.

There has to be a way for me to be able to just cut myself through. One of the most common dynamics that I see with high performers is, you know, as a young guy or girl, maybe their parents give them praise that's contingent on them doing well. Very, very typical, right? You reinforce the thing you want to have happen and you punish the thing you don't. But this can kind of, especially if you're a high performance parent or you've got a kid that you want to do well, this can become a little bit more sort of malignant, right? You can really, really push this a little bit much.

And what that teaches children is that their praise and adoration is worthy when they do well. You grow up a little bit and this starts to tell you, well, maybe the world only loves me or needs me or wants me or maybe I'm only worthy of being liked or accepted by people if I'm successful. This Aubrey Del Quetta has been very open about that, how that was very much an issue for him.

And it actually resurfaced recently when he joined a basketball league because all those emotions came back up. I must perform. I must do well. Yeah, and I think the example that he gave was, and he's spoken about this on a podcast, so it's not like I'm spilling the beans here on private shit, but they would celebrate in the car on the ride home from the game with

music and fucking fun. Parents? Yeah, the parents, the whole family, right? Everybody be cheering and listening to music and dancing in the car. And then after a loss or a bad game, silence. Right? So you think about how that would fucking impact. What are you being taught? A young teen, you know? Yeah, man. It's a big fucking deal. I was like, damn think about how that would fucking impact what are you being taught a young teen you know yeah man it's a big big fucking deal like that i was like damn dude that hit me hard

dude i mean you know here was the other thing as well that these people that have that upbringing are driven to do wonderful things you know know, magnificent, terrifying achievements. Because a fear of insufficiency can take you a long way, right? Like, I would say one of the main reasons that people that are successful are so successful is because they're running away from a life that they fear, not just running toward a life that they want. And you have to think, well, again, what's the price that you're paying for that? Like, is success worth it if you're miserable in the process of chasing it down? Why not just shortcut all of this and just be happy? Is that even possible? And is that even possible was something that I really think about. And this is where the really, really taking detail

view is important, right? Because you could quite easily say, well, okay, so I just become an ascetic monk and I live in the woods and I recant all worldly possessions. And you go, well, that's not going to work either because you're not realizing that we have an innate desire for prestige and status. And we want to feel like we belong and like other people respect us for the work that we do.

So it's too simple to just say, right, forget any success, just become an ascetic and go down that road So it's too simple to just say, right, forget any success, just become an ascetic and go down that road. That's not going to work. So I think that there is a degree of real world success that we need to chase down. I think that it's important to do the things, right? Naval Ravikant says,

it is far easier to achieve your material desires than to renounce them. Like it's much easier to drive beat up truck if you've had a nice car previously as opposed to always having that open look if i wonder what it's like to have a nice car i wonder what it's like to have a nice car um but yeah the the thing about success like you're sacrificing the thing you want happiness for the thing that's supposed to get it success how is that not asked backward and and, that doesn't mean that you don't have to chase success. That doesn't mean that success chasing is a bad idea. I'm doing it every single

day. But my point is just consider maybe with a little bit more subtlety and nuance, just what you're trying to get out of this situation and whether there's a quicker route towards trying to get it. What is it that's driving you here? Is it the patterns perhaps that you were taught when you were a kid that said praise and love is contingent on success? And now rolling that forward, you are terrified that the world doesn't,

I saw this, this was definitely a pattern with me that I'd never had a friend group throughout school, very sort of under socialized, very different. I sound different to the area that I'm from and so on and so forth and then I got to uni and I was this successful club promoter that everybody needed I thought wow this is what it's like to to be needed this is why and I'd always wondered like

why is it that other people have friends and I don't have friends I thought I must I must be missing something and I would look at the kids and I don't have friends? I thought, I must be missing something. And I would look at the kids and I would think, maybe it's because of the way that he does his laces. Or maybe it's because of the way that he has his tie. So I was trying to figure out what is it that they have that I don't have. And I didn't realize that it was just like social nows mostly, right? Like it was just an ability to socialize with other people.

And the 5% autism that's probably sprinkled on me probably didn't help and um i i remember i got to uni and i was like oh wow like this is how you do it and that was another lesson that it taught me and i'm 18 19 when i learned this and that's still inculcated into me if you are useful to other people that makes them need you that makes them want you and that's still inculcated into me. If you are useful to other people, that makes them need you. That makes them want you. And that's nearly as good as them wanting to want you. And you think, oh, fuck, right, okay. So I've got to get rid of that lesson as well.

Like, how do I learn that I'm just enough, that I'm worthy of love and acceptance and friendship and belonging? Just because. I don't need to offer people gifts. I don't need to add value to people's lives. And I see this even now with the show. It's metastasized into the show.

Well, maybe if I offer people interesting insights about their life or if I can tell them a cool story about a study that illuminates something that they weren't thinking about or if I can write an interesting blog post, maybe then they'll need me. You think, oh God, it's everywhere. And you just try and slowly chip away. You try and slowly erode that desire to the point

and I'm significantly better now that I go, okay, I can do this because I want to do this. I can add value because I want to add value, not because I have a fear that if I don't do that, I don't belong. And that's a dynamic I see with a lot of people. Yeah. What is the driver? I think about that too with, you know, in success versus happiness, like time versus money. Tim Ferriss brought that up in four hour work week, you know, this teeter totter of, you know, you to make more money. Paul Cech talks about this a lot. He's got a great, we'll link to this solo cast I was telling you about in the car that

he just did on, on, you know, accomplishing your dreams, you know, gold attainment. What does that look like? A lot of the stuff from PBS mastery on the Czech Institute, but you know, you, you increase, you, you sacrifice time to increase wealth because you know wealth gives you all the things that you need for happiness and wealth brings success, right? So you're making a lot of money, you're successful by most people's measuring stick, right? But you don't have time. And you could skew that to a point where you literally don't have time to spend the money that you make, you know? And then you think about the cost, even if you're a single guy and you don't have a wife

or kids or anything else going on, you wouldn't have time to go celebrate at the club. You wouldn't have time to do fucking anything to just to unload. Got to be. Right. So, so there, if you, if, when you look things, I like looking at things, you know, if it, if it, if it toggles, it doesn't have to be the extreme. Obviously we see that in fucking politics, but as a thought experiment, take it to the extreme and then reverse it and take it to the other extreme and then find that meter to balance yourself with that. And then, you know, speaking to what your point is on, can I shortcut that now?

Can I have the happiness now? What are the things that bring you joy? Why wait for that? Why not fucking set aside time to have it right now? You know, like, why not say like, I want to play music with my kids at the house, so I'm going to buy some extra instruments and we can just fuck off and play handpan or a drum or whatever during the day and actually take time off from work. So right now I might work four, five hours a day on any given day. Some days I have to grind and I'm sun up to sundown on the

farm or whatever else. I got three podcasts in a day, whatever the case is, there's some days like that. But for the most part, I work four or five hours a day and I do that. So that way I can be home doing the thing that brings me joy. You know, like I can have that right now. It doesn't have to be when I retire. It doesn't have to be, and then I don't have to fucking retire. Right. So there's no, I'll be happy when I can fill the cup right now. And I think thankfully more and more people are realizing that whatever that is for them, you know, and I think that's, that's the draw towards self-improvement or, uh, you know, podcasts that actually inform you on like little hacks that get you to rethink and reframe kind of, kind of the programming that we've had growing up versus like, what is an authentic yes for me?

And how does that look? Peterson said this again, that same episode that's going to be linked below. He nailed it, absolutely nailed it with this bit. And he said, the single biggest predictor of wealth is age. Would you rather be young and poor or old and rich? Because you can't buy youth. Fuck. I'm like, fuck, dude, that's it. Would you rather be young and poor or old and rich? You can't buy youth, and wealth is the single best predictor of it is age.

You go, okay. Like, we're sacrificing the thing that everybody wants for the thing that's supposed to get it. And you just go, whoa, man. So ass backward. And yet, I do think, at least in the And yet I do think, at least in the circles that I move in, more and more people taking a significantly more holistic view of success,

of work-life balance, of where they take their values from, of how they add to the world. Do one thing I've noticed since I've been out here in Austin, I've been made to feel incredibly welcomed by yourself and Aubrey and Michael Cashew and millions of people,

so many, so many, so many people. And it really does feel like Austin is a city where it's cool to work hard and very uncool to work very hard. And that's a very unique situation to be in because it's not the same in New York. If somebody came in and said, dude, I did a 60-hour week this week, They go, why? Why? Have you not, did you not, what about paddle boarding? Did you not forget about, where did the pickleball go? And I really liked that because it's like a, it's a external reminder. It's a forcing function. It's a constraint. There's so much stuff going on and there's so many people that are behaving in ways that are more rounded, more holistic, more organic, that you can't, you have too many other options to keep you working. And you have

too many people that are telling you that you probably shouldn't work to keep you working. And it's so that's the first time the relationship between leisure and work, this might be in America across the board, I don't know, but certainly in Austin is the best that I've ever found. In the UK, we have a Puritan work ethic, right? So you can imagine these priests in the Middle Ages and they're working outside of the chapel and they're hoeing the ground and they're in their robes and they're hoeing the ground

and the sun's beating down on their back and they're doing it in service to God, right? That's a Puritan work ethic, Puritanical. And the suffering and the ground and the sun's beating down on their back and they're doing it in service to God, right? That's a Puritan work ethic, Puritanical. And the suffering and the pain and the discomfort is the service to God. And in the UK, that's very much the way that sort of people's work ethic is that it's still got this very sort of hard,

I must work in order to reward myself that I can get out the other side of this. And yet over here, you go, hey man, what are you doing in the morning? Why don't we go jump in the lake? Or why don't we go and do this thing? Do I deserve it? It's life. This is life. You don't need to deserve life. Yeah. That reminds me of Matthias de Stefano. He has a show called Initiation on Gaia. He has a couple other ones. Fantastic dude. Aubrey's become friends with him.

So I've been able to pick his brain here behind closed doors a few times. And he's just a fantastic dude. But one of the things he talked about from a world religion standpoint, if you looked at Judeo-Christian religions, they all started where? In the desert. You know, where like the sun beats your ass, where, you know, one drought means you don't get to eat or there's a lack of water. And so don't piss God off. God is wrathful, right? Versus the spiritual cultures we have from the Amazon. We're like, everything is plentiful. I don't need to grow shit. It's already here for me. I can get whatever I want. I might keep a few chickens, but I can fish for what I need for food. I can go grab, you know,

I know where this tree is and where that tree is to get the fruit that I need. And it's, you know, you're in the bounty, right? There's, there's anacondas and jaguars and shit and fucking giant mosquitoes. So it's not all hunky dory, but the difference in the viewpoint. And then obviously the plant medicines that are abundant there that connect them to direct experience with source. Those are two completely different experiences and how that goes out into the world, into the psychology of man varies fucking greatly. It absolutely does. And I think what Tim was pointing to with the four-hour workweek, the idea, I think

it's the fisherman where the guy from the West is like, Hey man, if you take out a loan, you can get a bigger boat and then you can do the seven days a week. And he's like, well, what do I do when I retire? He's like, well, then you could spend time with your family all day. Like you basically do what you're doing all day now, instead of fishing for hundreds of thousands of people, you just fish for yourself and your family. And it's comical to think of that, but that story is really the difference in the thinking between the harder nosed growing up in the desert versus the spirituality that's birthed where it's plentiful. Yeah. Interesting. Well, I want to, and we're right at the hour mark, I want to dive

into something, the final blog that I was reading on, something I hadn't heard of before. So I was like, ooh, juicy. This is interesting. I've heard of imposter syndrome, but I had not heard of imposter adaptation. Can you break that down for us? Yes.

So this was something that I bro-scienced into existence. And what I realized was that everybody's familiar with imposter syndrome, right? That you don't feel like you are worthy of your accomplishments and that you are playing a role that you're not actually qualified to play. And everybody's familiar with hedonic adaptation, which is that when good things and bad things happen to you, life tends to reset back to the same sort of level of happiness.

There's studies around people that become paralyzed and people that win the lottery. After 18 months, their happiness levels pretty much reset back to the same. So we're very resilient. One interesting lesson about hedonic adaptation is that we're way more resilient to trauma than we think that we are, right? Yes, we're also resilient to happiness, which kind of sucks, but you're resilient to trauma. So something bad happens to you in 18 months, statistics say that you're going to be better before then or at then, right? So that's an interesting thing. What I realized was that

imposter adaptation is kind of this real nefarious version of imposter syndrome that I found in myself, where as you continue to disprove your own imposter syndrome in the real world your standards for which you're measuring yourself against continue to move forward so your imposter syndrome adapts to your ever-increasing capability and I think a lot of people see this as well that there's a kernel of truth in the fact that well I haven't done this size presentation before well I haven't done this size presentation before. Well, I haven't played in front of this many people at my live band before.

Well, I haven't tried to pitch for this size of a contract before. So you go, okay, yeah. But think about all of the challenges that you've come up against, all of the things, all of the difficulties. And you won. And you still have imposter syndrome.

How many times do you need to disprove your imposter syndrome in the real world and the imposter syndrome persist until you actually admit to yourself, this has got nothing to do with my capabilities and everything to do with an addiction to feeling like an imposter. More capability isn't going to fix this problem, right?

I keep on coming up against a challenge in the real world. I keep on being victorious. I keep on coming up against it. I keep on being victorious. And yet I never have faith that I'm going to do it again. And this was something that I found with myself because over time, I actually started to notice it drop away. You know, I'd sit down and do a podcast

and be sure that it would go terribly and it wouldn't. And then I'd sit down and do a podcast. And then 460 episodes later, I'm like, okay, I kind of guess that reality is telling me something here, which is maybe I shouldn't be scared that I'm not going to do well. And you go, okay, so what does that mean? It means that for a long time, I was lagging behind my view of myself, even though reality was telling me something different and that's the imposter adaptation and I think that people just need to try and have a little bit more faith in the work that they do like if you are adamant that you're going to fail and reality continues to tell you

that you're succeeding because every time you come up against something it goes great like why are you listening to yourself? Reality is telling you the truth here. You keep on winning every single time that something bad or something challenging or something difficult occurs. Like, believe in that. Yeah, it's brilliant. It's brilliant. That caused a lot of reflection too, especially in podcasting where I've had like, and it's not a frequent thing. It's typically if I have a giant guest, you know, I'll talk to my closest friends or my wife and I'll be like, oh man, I could have been better. You know, there's no grading. There's no inner critic like in our conversation or anything like that.

And it's fantastic by the way. But like, there's no inner critic there. When I, you know, if I'm talking to somebody that I've been studying or read their fucking books, I'm like, I got to get such and such on. Like it could have happened. It might've happened with like Douglas Murray, right? Who were you most nervous to have on that you've had on so far? Well, I was nervous, not for the,

I was slightly nervous for the first Rogan, but I didn't understand the weight of it. The second time I went on Rogan's, I was fucking mortified, right? And I remember calling Aubrey right after and I was like, it fucking went terrible, blah, blah. And he's like, dude, I was on 12 times. There was times where I thought it was terrible. And you know, the feedback wasn't that it was terrible is that it was fine or

whatever, you know? And like, I felt like I wasn't speaking that much, you know? And then somebody would say like, no, it just seemed like he had a lot to say and you spoke less, but that happens sometimes in a conversation, you know? So shit like that. i'm totally drawing a blank on the name of the guy right now but he's a brilliant thinker also from the uk uh lives out in la and um i just had so much admiration for this guy it's not peter crone yeah peter crone yes yes reading minds here yes um i remember when i first got turned on to Peter Cronin, it was like discovering Eckhart Tolle for the first time. Kind of like that. He's a serious motherfucker.

Holy shit, dude. This guy exists. How does, how do I not know who the fuck Peter Cronin is? Right? Like he's fucking brilliant, you know? And it also helped or hurt that I was in his house and his house is fucking phenomenal. Unbelievable, yeah.

Holy shit. You know, and he comes down and his assistant's like, oh, he'll be down in a minute. He's in his hyperbaric chamber. And I'm like, of know, like I was learning so much as he was speaking that there was nobody driving the fucking boat. Like there was no one behind the wheel. It was just like, holy shit, I need to take notes and fucking, and listen to this the second it's over with kind of feeling. And so, you know, really the line of questioning was very hard to fucking keep, you know, where's the next thing going to go? How am I going to put this together? So that probably of all the podcasts that I've done was the one where I was most self-critical.

And it was still fucking great because Peter was fucking Peter. Yes. You know what I'm saying? So like, even at the end of the day, if on a, could I have been better? Fuck yeah. You know, but like, am I going back to the selfish thing? Am I buddies with Peter now? Yeah, man. I fucking texted him a bunch in the last two years like here and there

like dude when you come in awesome all this shit you know like he's a homie and so like the ultimate goals of having a podcast to become friends with the guy that i admire to learn from that person the guy or girl those are all achieves and the fans fucking you know everyone listening love the fucking podcast so like remember remember as well like i think we have a view of ourselves that was supposed to be the finished article i was supposed to be kind of rounded and without error and let's say that you do do a thing where you you're speechless after something that peter says like who's to say that that's not the way to deal with this you, the old version of the world where everybody had to wear a suit and tie

and turn up on time and nobody could swear and blah, blah, blah, blah. That kind of world is starting to disappear a lot now. And it's a lot more of a real, open, vulnerable way to do something. So you have a conversation with Peter and you're just like, dude, I don't know what to say. And you go, that's also charming, you know?

We don't expect people to be perfect in that way anymore. We actually want to see the speechless Kyle on the show. Like that's a part of it. Yeah, it's an authentic reaction. You know, it's not, you see Peterson crying on a podcast or something like that. And you go, well, that's a part of it as well.

It doesn't make it any less. In fact, it makes it more. You know, people aren't here. And this is for anybody that is trying to start a podcast. One of the most interesting things I've learned is your job isn't to be the perfect disseminator of information, perfectly indexed in like a rational framework. You're a vibe architect, right?

You're trying to just create a vibe around the conversation. The information is going to come in any case, right? People aren't, unless you're sort of a super bro-y, chicky podcast talking about who I slept with last night and what's your favorite burrito and stuff. For the most part, you're already going to get the information out. So it's like, how do you create the

vibe, the atmosphere that makes people feel like they're a part of it? And that's a part of it as well. Forgetting whatever it is that you were talking about because you're entranced by this fantastic guy and his wisdom. You go, well, that's a part of it as well forgetting whatever it is that you were talking about because you're entranced by this fantastic guy and his wisdom you go well that's a part of it too so yeah i think letting go of that desire to be perfect is a is a big part of it yeah absolutely brother well it's been fucking excellent doing our first run i know we'll do this again um you got a book coming out can we talk about that or that's that's not um not being signed off yet

that's a potential for the future for now if people want to listen to the show Modern Wisdom Apple Podcasts and Spotify wherever else you listen Chris Williamson

on YouTube we've got whatever 350,000 subs on there so you can find me there if you want to get started the first episode that I would advise is Jordan Peterson's one

which we'll throw in the show notes and then I've got a list of 100 books that you should read before you die so it's've got a list of 100 books that you should read before you die so it's a free reading list just people always ask what what should i start with and that's chriswillx.com slash books you can get that for free awesome brother thank you so much my pleasure man Thank you.