Kyle Kingsbury Podcast - #255 Jason Pickard

Starting point is 00:00:00 All right, friends, we're back in the house with a guy I've become very close with over the last year since meeting him at Paul Cech's 60th birthday. Somebody I've heard a lot about, somebody I've mentioned on the podcast before, Jason Picard, brother to Jared, the biodynamic farmer and just much more than biodynamics, but an awesome human being. Both these guys are absolutely incredible. Jared was whipping us up tobacco bags from the volcano during this podcast. So you might hear some bags crinkling and whatnot, but this was a podcast, a long time coming. Jason's been making his rounds. He did a great one on Living 4D with Paul Cech and a number of other podcasts that I love.

Starting point is 00:00:48 There we go. I just finished a podcast. So forgive me if I'm a little bit brain fatigued right now. Probably need some more ketones, but I absolutely love Jason. We dive into a lot in this podcast. And it was one where, I mean, Jason is a guy I could for sure go three hours with. And so I was a little disappointed that I didn't get to stretch it to three hours. But we went as long as we possibly could before I had an all hands on deck meeting regarding our festival coming up of Arcadia, this Wyoming. So make sure you check out fitforservice.com slash Arcadia. We have switched officially to a donation-based model, which is going to change the game and change the world. If you want to know more about that, I'll link to this in the podcast as well

Starting point is 00:01:35 in the show notes. The podcast that Aubrey Marcus just did with Charles Eisenstein. And while I'm at it, I'll link to the podcast that Aubrey just did with Dr. Zach Bush, because both of these, it really explained what this new world looks like and not the new world order, but the more beautiful world our hearts know is possible. And of course, Dr. Zach Bush speaks to that from a medical lens, from a health lens and does so just perfectly. I mean, better than any podcast I've ever heard him on. And that includes the podcast he did with me. I love him. He's a soul brother.

Starting point is 00:02:10 And I absolutely love Charles Eisenstein. He's been on the show. He's coming back on. Super stoked about that. But I would love nothing more than to get to meet you guys out at Arcadia in Alpine, Wyoming, July 14th through the 17th and to really celebrate life and to celebrate what we're all going to create together. And to know more about what we're

Starting point is 00:02:30 creating together, check out those podcasts. Jason and I could have easily talked for three hours, but the beautiful thing about this is we get through so much great material. We get through Jason's background, we get through his training with Paul Cech. And we really dive into a lot of the teachings and mastery that he's cultivated over the years with many, many different experts across many different fields. Jason's a therapist in the best sense of the word and just an incredible person. And we even dive deep into my own personal story as a therapist therapist where we just launched like a recorded therapy session with them that had my wheels fucking spinning and really got me to think and see things from a different viewpoint. He's a soul brother through and through. I know you guys

Starting point is 00:03:16 are absolutely love this podcast and likely you're going to want more from Jason, but don't worry. He's a guy that I plan on having on the podcast pretty much anytime he's in town. We really can cover so much more. So this will leave you wanting more cliffhanger alert, but at the same time, it's going to deliver quite a bit. There are a number of ways you guys can support this podcast. First and foremost, share it with friends, share it with family, share it with people you know will enjoy the content of it. Leave us a five-star rating. That helps more eyes get on the show and helps grow the show. And perhaps most importantly,

Starting point is 00:03:48 check out our sponsors. These guys make the show possible. I have hand-selected, if not from myself personally, then from my elite-level team that knows exactly what I want on the podcast and what I'm into. And we've got some great,

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Starting point is 00:05:43 upstream. Earthrunners aspires to restore our relationship with nature and to rediscover our ancestral roots via minimalist earthing sandals. Rewild and reconnect with Earthrunners. You can find them at earthrunners.com and use the code KKP for 10% off. That is earthrunners.com, code KKP for 10% off, E-A-R-T-H-R-U-N-N-E-R-S.com, and code KKP is going to get you that extra 10% off. Check them out. I wear these things everywhere now. I even wear them on the farm. I was like, well, I kind of need heavy duty work boots. And sure, when I'm

Starting point is 00:06:16 operating heavy machinery, I still do that. But I also want to connect to the land and I can actually do that. I can have my cake and eat it too, proverbially, because I can protect the bottom of my feet from mesquite, thorns, and cactus while still getting sun. I can have my cake and eat it too, proverbially, because I can protect the bottom of my feet from mesquite, thorns, and cactus while still getting sun on the top of my feet and still connecting to the earth, which is such a huge practice that's something I've been diving deeply into

Starting point is 00:06:34 for many years. When I worked on it, I was walking around barefoot all the time. Of course, we don't have mesquite growing on the concrete floors there, but when I'm out in nature, this is what I've got on every single day and I absolutely love them. They've become the new thing that I can't live without. Similarly, akin to the fanny pack. Maybe you'll see me wear the fanny pack. I can't live without

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Starting point is 00:09:50 This is super important for anybody who got into the juicing craze, and I'm not talking anabolics here. If anybody watched Fat, Sick, and Nearly Dead back in the day, got themselves a juicer and started juicing up a ton of stuff, that wouldn't bode very well with a CGM for most people, unless you're just sticking a celery juice, which does get old. You want to sweeten it up and add different things and you miss out on that fiber that can become kind of a metabolic nightmare for the interior of your body. So what these guys have done is they've taken a number of superfoods that I wouldn't normally get in my diet. Things like moringa, ashwagandha,

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Starting point is 00:13:15 We actually have the founder of Paleo Valley coming up on the podcast to really discuss why this was birthed. And this is something that fills, you know, there was a kid's cartoon movie that wasn't very good. It wasn't a Pixar or anything like that. But one of the things they said repeatedly throughout that kid's cartoon that really stuck out to me that I've hammered gently to my son is see a need, fill a need. See a need, fill a need can be applied to family life. Like if there's dishes in the sink that aren't washed and I walk by in the kitchen, see a need, fill a need can be applied to family life. Like if there's dishes in the sink that aren't washed and I walk by in the kitchen, see a need, fill a need. I'm going to fucking do the dishes and

Starting point is 00:13:49 get those in the dishwasher so somebody else doesn't have to do that. See a need, fill a need means if we're on a walk and I find trash on the ground, maybe not a condom or hypodermic needle, but if there's some trash or plastic, I'm going to pick that up and I'm going to get it to where it needs to go because of see a need, fill a and need. And C&E'd, fill and need, when it comes to humanity and the modern world with how pressed we are for time, one of the most important things that Paleo Valley's done is they've taken really high-end, high-quality ingredients that are not just good for us as humans, but great for the environment, great for Mother Earth. And they've made those absolutely convenient. This is one of the most important

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Starting point is 00:15:40 food preservation, all that stuff, which is looked at as conspiracy theorist whack job shit these days, unfortunately. But it may come down to us having a harsh winter. It may come down to grocery stores closing and things of this nature are going to become really important for survival purposes. So when we look at dehydrated foods and we look at, and this could be dehydrated apricot all the way to beef jerky. If it's not fermented and it's lacking probiotics, that's going to take its toll on the gut. You have to rehydrate that when it goes in. It's going to, forget the dehydration factor. It can cause gas. It can cause GI issues. It can cause stomach discomfort. Certainly when I have dehydrated

Starting point is 00:16:20 fruit, that's the case. Paul Cech once said, rehydrate it before you eat it, meaning soak it in water. If you don't have time to rehydrate, then obviously you're eating the thing that's convenient because you don't have the time. So that can be an issue, which is another reason these beef sticks are so valuable because when you eat them, you won't have GI issues. They're going to go down smoothly. You can check it out with the poop police later when you see it in the toilet. It looks great. It feels great going in. It feels great going out. And it's great for your body on all levels. They taste amazing. My favorite is the jalapeno flavored beef stick. It's not overly spicy, but it has just enough kick and snap to make it something I really, really enjoy. 100% grass fed beef has higher levels of omega-3 fatty acids, fat soluble vitamins and minerals,

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Starting point is 00:17:46 Discount code K-Y-L-E for 15% off everything in the store. They've got some fantastic bars and supplements as well. So check it all out on their site. And without further ado, my brother, Jason Picard. For the folks at home, you may hear some vibrational frequencies in the background. It's not music. It's the sweet sound of bags being filled up by Jason Picard's brother, Jared, also a guest, former guest on the podcast.

Starting point is 00:18:14 We'll be running back, I'm sure, later this year. I've taken some notes here. I just want to see if I can put... There we go. All right. All right. All right. In seven years of podcasting, I've never once read the outline of a podcast. And a lot of the podcasts are not outlined.

Starting point is 00:18:39 But when we have this level of wealth of knowledge, we want to make sure we extract as much as possible and also cover the topics that are most alive in you. I'll refresh your memory. And then we'll work our way down through this list. If we don't get to it, we will run it back. That's guaranteed. But that said, I'm going to state all of these that way in case, just a frame of reference. We are on a 90-minute block, unfortunately. This is one that could easily go three hours. And I know there's quite a few of my listeners that have been asking for longer form podcasts, all our Rogan style. We got a team meeting for fit for service coming up right after this. So

Starting point is 00:19:13 we got to make sure we're on that 90 minute tip. And then at yeah, we've got to hit this, hit this meeting. It's got our first festival coming up this summer, Arcadia. I a link to that in the show notes for people that want to learn more. All right. So we are going to talk your background. That's a part of the theme of the show is I want to know what made people, people, you have an excellent story. Actually, one of my closest friends and clients, my brother, Craig, very similar background. So we'll get your story from wall street to a life process coach. We'll talk obviously master Paul check. Parenting is a big coach. We'll talk, obviously, Master Paul Cech.

Starting point is 00:19:46 Parenting is a big one. We get a lot of parents that listen in on the show. And there's just a lot of dudes that want to know how to be a man and how to father, right? So that's important. Process work exercise with movement. I listened to your podcast, of course, with our brother, Ben Stewart. And I was like, I want to fucking dive into the deep end of process work.

Starting point is 00:20:04 That sounds phenomenal. Cool. Review my childhood dream or earliest childhood memory as an example of one's life myth, purpose, core powers, and core wounds. Fuck yes. Absolutely. Death. Exercises for death. Dying to our attachments.

Starting point is 00:20:19 How to practice dying a bit each day in order to live fully. What do we imagine our death would look like? What would our obituary say? That's a fantastic exercise, by the way. I've only really practiced that once, and I forget who I did it with, but that is an excellent one. Exploration of how all major indigenous cultures of the world had texts to prepare for death and ceremonies to explore it in life. Vedic culture, shamanism, Carlos Castaneda, Don Juan books, and knowledge around death, including death as a spiritual advisor. My childhood dream and my relationship with death,

Starting point is 00:20:51 my near-death experience in a hospital with perforated appendix and infection, which was very recent. Yeah, it was. Very fucking recent. So we've got some hot topics here. That sounds like 10 hours there. We could fucking for sure do it.

Starting point is 00:21:05 So again, for the listener, if you hear the crinkling of a bag, I'm sorry. If you're watching it, you'll see. This is what it looks like. We'll have this one on YouTube because I doubt this one's going to get pulled. And we will have my dude, Jose Stradley, is starting an Odyssey account. So that's where the David Icke episode will live, the Mickey Willis episode. Anything that's a little bit, not a little bit, anything that's a lot that says, fuck you to the mainstream narrative, those will exist on Odyssey.

Starting point is 00:21:34 They cannot be taken down there. And of course, we'll start linking to all that in the show notes. Unfortunately, with video processing, it will likely come out about a month after audio. That's just the state of it right now. And the future will improve that and we'll get them out at the same time. But for now, that's how it goes. Lo siento. But if you do want to watch this later, if you love the podcast, which you will, and

Starting point is 00:21:56 you want to see Jason's beautiful face and this fucking phenomenal outfit you have on that I'm super jealous of, we're going to talk about that first. Then you'll be able to watch it at least somewhere, no matter what, on Odyssey or YouTube. Cheers. And you'll hear a good inhale. Oh, that is some premium tobacco, baby. Thank you. All right. Let's start from the beginning. Let's do it. You grew up, talk about your dad a bit.

Starting point is 00:22:25 I know he was a huge influence on the two of you. Yeah. And a driving force into career decisions and whatnot. Yeah, yeah. You know, it's interesting when I grew up, when I was very young, my first interests were in drumming and in magic, okay? And it's interesting to think about,

Starting point is 00:22:42 nobody in my family was into that kind of stuff. So where does that impetus come from where you come into the world And it's interesting to think about, you know, nobody in my family was into that kind of stuff. So, where does that impetus come from where you come into the world and before you even get introduced to these things, I'm already attracted to the drum, I'm already attracted to magic. But it wasn't long before mainstream goals were sort of pushed on to me. Thrust. Yeah, this idea. And it's amazing how naturally that happens. You know, seeing my dad working on Wall Street and being exposed to this environment.

Starting point is 00:23:12 You know, I'd go when my brother and I would go visit him at these like budding hedge fund type offices in the 80s and 90s. And the environment was electric. You know, it's almost, it was like a fraternal men's club, really. And these were guys that were young, they were making a lot of money, they were doing exciting things, and just really turned me on. And around the ages of 11, 12, I got introduced to my dad's boss at the time, who

Starting point is 00:23:38 became my kind of mentor, and ultimately my boss, one of the greatest traders of all time, Paul Tudor Jones. And so, we were 11, 12 years old, and I would go and there'd be a family picnic, and they would take the tug of war so seriously, where it was competing against other local hedge funds and things like that. And it was like life or death to win this tug of war event, where they were coming to my house and training with my dad leading up to the event. And I was like, this is what I want to do, right? These are guys who are just having fun. They're competitive. And so at that time, I got fully invested in wanting to become a Wall Street trader. And I really followed that path all the way through university. I went to the University of Virginia. I really only cared about trading when I was there. I didn't really pay much attention to anything else except for having a good time and learning about trading. And when I graduated, I quickly moved up the ranks in Wall Street to the time when I was 26 years old. I was now working for my childhood mentor, Paul Tudor Jones. It was like being at the Yankees of hedge funds, right? And I'm 26.

Starting point is 00:24:51 I'm the youngest person to ever be in that position. I was the youngest person to become partner at this firm, which is like a very esteemed thing. And I was doing incredible, making millions of dollars. But to the degree that I was successful in that, I was that unsuccessful in my health and wellness and happiness. I was 330 pounds. I was obese. I was a real mess. I could barely find clothes to fit to go to work. It was really difficult when you're that weight and you're not super tall, right? You're getting pants like eight sizes too long for you. It's difficult no matter what the height. I mean, I remember being juiced to the gills at Arizona State playing Division I football. And at 268 and 6'3 and a half, I'd walk a flight of stairs or run in bleachers and I'm fucking done.

Starting point is 00:25:35 That would gas me. Even in football shape, I'd have a leg pump. I'd fucking get a face pump from eating. And it was palpably harder on my body to carry that weight. And that was muscle. It was backed by strength. It was backed by hours in the gym. And yeah, it's a toll. It's very uncomfortable. It's very uncomfortable being that weight. I mean, from just carrying yourself around to just like the sweatiness. I can remember the sweatiness. Wherever you go, you're sweating all parts of your body.

Starting point is 00:26:11 Your underwear's wet. Your armpits are wet. It's just really a mess. And it's a really interesting experience looking back now. I wouldn't want that for anybody, but it really gave me a lot of understanding of what most of our country is likely experiencing. So I have a lot of compassion and can really connect a lot of people that are going through a process of being overweight and wanting to change. So I was 27. I was at the height of my career. Paul Tudor Jones actually came and sat me down, which was really an amazing moment of caring. And he said, look, and I really care about you. You know, you're a great trader, but I just don't think

Starting point is 00:26:51 you'll be able to perform at your best if you're this weight. You know, I just don't see it. You know, I don't see that being a sustainable process for you. And so, you know, that really, really kind of lit a fire under my ass. That along with having some health problems that were happening. And I was sitting here and I'm like, what am I going to do with all this money I'm making? What's the fucking point of all this? I don't have a girl in my life. I feel like my friends are around me just because I have money. I'm working myself to death. I'm eating myself to death. Like, what is this all for? So at that time, I started getting super into exercise. And for the next two years, I just like grounded out in the gym. Just was like before work, after work. And, you know, this is not exactly the way that somebody probably should do this. I mean, I was living a very high stress lifestyle to begin with and then piling on a lot of working out ultimately led to extreme adrenal fatigue. But when you're 330 pounds and you want to cut weight, there's not a lot of easy ways to do it.

Starting point is 00:27:56 So yeah, I was in the gym like this guy, this Russian-Hungarian type trainer that we knew, his name is Chaba, who eventually led me to Paul Cech. But before we get there, he had this like basement style dungeon in the financial district of New York City. No windows, you know, air quality was just terrible. I mean, it reminded me of like Rocky in Russia, you know, just bare bones, you know,

Starting point is 00:28:22 like carrying sandbags up and down the stairway of the building and, you know, doing little side-to-side sprints in the hallway, just wherever we could get access to do anything. But it was really just like a sweaty, sweaty process. And I was in there for two years and really kind of revamped myself going from 330 pounds to 160. And at that time, I thought I was this big stud, right? Here I am 160 and I just was 330 two years ago. I looked lean. I looked pretty good overall. And so, we sent this video to Paul Cech of me working out in the gym. And it was like this thing of like, okay, look at this stud. Success story. Look at this success story. Look at him doing jump squats and cable pulls and dot, dot, dot.

Starting point is 00:29:08 And Paul wrote back and goes, this guy went from a soggy piece of bread to a burnt piece of toast. He is stage four, stage infinity adrenal fatigue. He needs to take two years off from exercise. And I was like, what? I mean, to me at that time, exercise was all I felt like I had. I realized that the addiction that I had to eating and to excess, I had just transferred that into something more socially acceptable. So now, girls would look at me and people would like, you know, my parents were more, you know, happy with me and this and that.

Starting point is 00:29:47 But I really hadn't changed much on the inside. I just sort of transferred, you know, whatever I was dealing with to something that was more socially acceptable, but I still wasn't healthy. a lifetime process of going inside myself, learning about working in technologies, learning about meditation, Tai Chi, and spiritual practice, and finally getting to the root of all this, which is learning how to find balance in this world. And that's around the time when I met Paul. After that, I realized, okay, this guy knows what he's doing. And I went out in 2010 and met Paul for the first time and had my first shamanic experience with him, first psychedelic experience, which completely opened up my whole world. And I've never looked back. Yeah, journeys like that have the ability to completely reshape what's possible and, and to, to, you know, in equal parts cut with a razor blade

Starting point is 00:30:49 through all the falsities that we were indoctrinated with from religion and family beliefs and things like that. And really shine a light on golden truths that are always true. Yeah. And, and things like that to me are just like, I've had many journeys such as you, but I remember the first one like it was yesterday. I remember those first downloads and the visceral understanding of animism and seeing the soul in a tree and in all things as one. I don't need a book after that. I don't need anyone to confirm that for me. I still read a lot, but, um, yeah, that experience, say that it changed your life, you know, it was just the fucking

Starting point is 00:31:29 gross understatement when done appropriately. Right. And with a master like Paul or, um, you know, with the, the, the presence that I had in my first one with ayahuasca, I'd had experience with plant medicine before that. But the first time with ayahuasca was like, this is a fucking different thing, you know? Totally. Yeah, I mean, my first experience with him was in Vista at his house on his front lawn. And I had no idea.

Starting point is 00:31:52 I didn't really know. You know, I had done recreational stuff throughout my life, but I didn't really know what a shamanic experience was. And, you know, they call it a shamanic journey, not a shamanic party, right? It's a journey. It's work. It's not easy to go through those experiences.

Starting point is 00:32:09 It's not a recreational endeavor. It's a process of growth and inner exploration and really wanting to get to the truth of who you really are. And after that first experience with him, which was rather quick, I felt like I had an 800-pound gorilla that just came off my back. I was rolling around in this front lawn. I took this orange off a tree and just bit into it, and I had juice all over my face. And I had never done art before in my life. And then I'm painting with all these colors, and I just felt so alive. And it was like, man, this weight was just off my shoulders. It was just an incredible feeling, incredible feeling of connectedness. And you talked about these truths.

Starting point is 00:32:52 And I think that really is what my journey is about. In the Vedas, they have a mantra, Om Tat Sat. It's like, Om Tat Sat, that which is true will always be true. Truths that are always true. That's what we're really seeking for. Absolutely. That reminds me of Selig's work. Have you read any of Paul Selig's stuff?

Starting point is 00:33:14 I've listened to a bunch of his stuff. Yeah, he's incredible. One of the undeniably dialed in channels, you know, and I say that because there's, you know, quite a few people that are in that game that I'm not sure, you know, what they're doing or how accurate and efficacious their work is. But, you know, for somebody to be able to sit in front of a live audience and channel a book, an entire book that's coherent and has the architecture of a book and a story with these undeniable truths layered throughout it, like gemstones, he'll do that in 17 or 18 days.

Starting point is 00:33:54 And if you know anybody in the writing process that has fucking absolutely unheard of, right? So there's zero doubt in my mind that that's coming through him. And I've worked with him one-on-one and live in a smaller group settings. But that's something that he talks about. Truth with a capital T is a truth that is always true. So to say like Donald Trump is president, that's not a capital T truth because it's only true while he's in office. It's not true now. Oh, he was a president.

Starting point is 00:34:23 It's now. Don't move the goalposts. Yeah. That reminds me of Byron Katie's, like, is it true? Is it really true? Right? Many of the truths are sort of relative truths that we're thinking about and not absolute truths, which is what I think you're referring to. Yeah. Yeah. And these absolute truths are, they have the ability to transform us in a way and shape our lives and really like really change the perspective of what is it that we're searching for what is it that we're driving towards to really enhance our lives to give it meaning to give it purpose well it's really

Starting point is 00:34:56 interesting because when you really think about what we're really looking for it seems to me that what we're looking for is beauty we're all in the search of this beauty. But the problem is, is that we're looking for it outside in this material world. In the Vedas, they call that prakriti. It's like this material world that we've descended into. But we forget. So, what happens often is we get so burned by this looking for this beauty, because it's insatiable. It never really leads us to this ultimate fulfillment

Starting point is 00:35:28 that we decide to give up on it. And that's sometimes considered like nirvana or the path of Buddhism, which is I'm just gonna go to zero. I don't want anything. Everything in the search of beauty leads to unhappiness. So I'm going into emptiness. And that doesn't seem to be

Starting point is 00:35:45 the answer because it doesn't really answer the question of why am I looking for all this beauty everywhere and why am I in search of all this beauty? The other side of that is the oneness crowd where it's like, it's all one, man. It's all one. We're here, it's all one. But at the same point, that's sort of who's saying that, right? If it's all one, who are you to say, you know, who's the you saying it's all one? How do you say that as an individual if it's all one? And so, for me, it's been this idea of then, oh, well, life is about searching for beauty, but it's not in this material way. It's almost like turning around.

Starting point is 00:36:29 There's a turning around and turning inwards and finding that, ah, this connection to source, this connection to other things that are outside the material world, that's where the real beauty is. I love that. Yeah, brother. It's got me, the wheel is spinning for a bit here. what's the word there starts with an a asceticism right around like asceticism with pleasure and

Starting point is 00:37:07 things like that okay that's a given but then taking it a step further to where you somehow the goal becomes the relinquishment of all desire have you read the erotic and the holy by mark gaffney no that sounds great love it dude uh he's a kabbalistic rabbi who has dialed the fuck in. Likely has alchemized more on world religion than or equal to Houston Smith. Just a beautiful, beautiful dude. That's saying a lot. And he's, yeah, I mean, he's really dialed in. He's somebody that I've gravitated towards a lot since Aubrey got introduced to him. But he speaks a lot about Eros and this wonderful desire and how the design of this place

Starting point is 00:37:49 is not one of darkness, even though that exists in the full spectrum, right? But it is one of a cosmoerotic universe where all things are brought together through attraction. And it is that desire that allows us to keep the game going, that allows us to really step into our individuation. And if we have that direct line by looking inward, then that changes where the desire goes, right? So it's not just a bodily desire or, you know, I deserve this fucking cupcake, but it's an authentic desire to be loved by another. It's an authentic desire to witness beauty in nature. It's an authentic desire to find myself in a calm, quiet, still place, you know? And those are my own words at the end of that. But the point is like, it really is reshifting the imagination and then saying yes

Starting point is 00:38:41 to that desire because that is Eros and that is the thing, the love, the love game that we're in. Right, right. And love is an interesting word because actually the root word of love comes from Greek, which comes from Sanskrit and it goes to greed. Oh shit. And in our language, it's very interesting because we don't really have words to describe the different flavors of love. You know, in the Bhagavad Gita and these Vedic cultures, they talk about this rasa, which is like almost like a flavor of ice cream. But the love we have for our pet is different than the love we have for our child, is different than the love we have for our intimate partner versus an elder. We say we love pizza, right?

Starting point is 00:39:29 We love our car, right? So, it's very interesting. And getting back to that original, that idea of this emptiness and this fullness and stuff is like, if you imagine being in a movie theater where there's like a movie projecting onto a wall, this search of this material world is like, we're running at the wall, the brick wall that the movie's projecting onto, thinking that that's the object. And we run into the wall, we run into the wall, we run into the wall, and the object's not really there. And so we say, all right, we're done with this. Nirvana, Buddhism, give it all up. But then at some point, we turn around and we see, ah, this is being projected from somewhere else. So we start moving towards the light and we get up to the light and we get so close to the light, we're right into the light and the light is just completely blinding us.

Starting point is 00:40:14 We can't even see anything. And that's being projected onto the screen, meaning that all of these things that are happening are actually coming from somewhere else. And then we start to ask these questions like, who's the director? You know, who are the different actors? And this is that lila or this idea of like life as play. So, you know, for me, it's like this realization that everything we're looking for is actually being projected from somewhere else into this realm. The light that we're, you know, this is sort of like a relatively endarkened place, but this light is shining down into this world.

Starting point is 00:40:59 And, you know, for me, it's this connection to that everything that's happening to me, to have that vantage point that there's a connection to that everything that's happening to me to have that vantage point that there's a connection to something else projecting down in right yeah i like that yeah that i had a thread there i was thinking about it just lost it um damn it let me see if it'll come back to me. But you were talking about- Yeah, there was a thing there. I was thinking of Brother Paul Cech with that. And I remember when he had, you'll remember her name,

Starting point is 00:41:34 the past lives lady on. And he said that he had a, and take it for what it will, if you're a listener and you've never had one. I've never had a past life regression yet. I hope to, I've called it in past life regression yet. I hope to. I've called it in in ceremonies. I've not experienced it yet. But unequivocally, I have almost like a memory come through of reincarnation where it wasn't like I lived a past life, but it was just like, oh, this is the game that continues and continues and continues.

Starting point is 00:42:01 Paul had had a memory of being one of the Knights Templar and then them turning on him. Right. And, um, he, in the moment that he passed, he remembered basically like, like Jesus saying, why have you forsaken me? Kind of that process. Like, why is it so fucking brutal? Why is it so dark? And, um, and of course, I'm just paraphrasing, but the message from God was like, all there is is the game. That's it. What else would we do for eternity but play games? And that fucking hit me like the strongest power cord from Jimi Hendrix.

Starting point is 00:42:38 Like I was in the truck listening to that and I was like, holy shit, that's it. The infinite game, right? And obviously he's had Carson on the podcast, uh, finite and infinite games. That is the infinite game. And have you seen, um, Oh God, what is it? It was, uh, the green, the green helped me out on that. You got it. Jared, the green something the green something it was it's a tale from uh sir galahad and um this is gonna fucking kill me if i don't put the green knight oh right i saw that you saw it yeah so right right right at the end spoiler alert right at the end when he gets his fucking head cut off right right before he says yes to it um he looks

Starting point is 00:43:22 at him and he says he's on his hands and knees and he goes, is this all there is? And the green knight says to him, what else ought there be? Wham with the fucking axe, black, you know, I was like, oh God. But both of those things to me, like that, that is in the film encapulation of this idea. And then Paul beautifully states, you know, through his, his, you know, conversations with God, a similar thing. And I, to me that, that helps me process and let go of struggle or the idea that, you know, we want meaning and purpose and, and we add a certain layer of importance to those things that we elect to do, but ultimately it is an infinite game. And with that, that softens me and allows me to kind of let go of the importance of it all in the sense that no matter what, we get to continue. Like it or not, we get to continue. There will be an ongoing game of sorts. It may not be in this realm, it may be in another, but

Starting point is 00:44:22 the game goes on. I think that's one of the biggest diseases we have in our culture is this idea that we only have a one lifetime worldview. Massive. Right? So, if we have only a one lifetime worldview, what does it matter? Let's just mess up the earth, dig for resources, do whatever we want, treat people the way we want, because it doesn't matter. It's over, right? There's nothing after this. But when we start to realize that we have, you know, they have like born again Christians, you know, and they think they're born again, but we're really born again and again and again and again and again and again. You know, in the Vedas, they talk about, you know, these are just kind of general, you know, large numbers, but that we have 8 million lives as various species before we even take a human

Starting point is 00:45:06 birth. And then there's 400,000 different types of human births that are possible, different types of humans that you could be. So, I mean, we're talking about a time that they say is a chintia. It's inconceivable. You can't even use your mind to think about it, right? And so, yeah, this idea of one lifetime is really a poison. You know, we need to be acting in a way where the seven generations behind us are like whispering in our ear. We're giving gratitude to them for the path that they've paved for us. And we're listening to their wisdom and their guidance like in our ear. At the same time, thinking about the next seven generations and how we're going to leave this planet for our children. Because if we don't, we're going to have more of the problems we have now.

Starting point is 00:45:52 So, I think that's a really big shift when you start to look at your life from that this is an eternal game. And you change the identification of me as this body to me as the soul or me as this atma, this indivisible, immortal I think it is Eastern, is the baby that grows and grows and grows up to the man in the middle and then shrinks back down as an elderly person until it's fucking dead. Yeah. You know, and then it just shows that over and over and over again. Yeah, they say that in the Tao, it's like everything has a birth, you know, it grows, it matures, it flowers, it withers, it decays, and it dies. And then it comes back again. That's just one of the laws of nature. It's process, right? Seasons.

Starting point is 00:46:53 We think of time as linear, but that's another thing that keeps coming back for me from medicine journeys, as well as the great books like the Yugas or the fourth turning, uh, is that everything is cyclical. Everything does have a season. That's how time operates. Uh, Paul's obviously alluding to this and his new one, uh, which can't name the title yet, but that will fucking change the world. And, um, I think of things in respect to that as the, the, there, there's so much talk around, you know, the illusion of time and the illusion of this reality. And when Paul calls it the illusion, right? It's not the illusion.

Starting point is 00:47:30 It's the fucking illusion. Yeah. Right? Like it's an important illusion. Really the alchemy of my dark night of the soul was facing the oneness and facing the idea that this is just an illusion and to get my ass off the wheel and to dissolve back into oneness. And it was like, what the fuck is the point of that?

Starting point is 00:47:49 The point of this game is to individuate. It is to be able to love another. Because if we are one being, there is no other. Right. So why climb to the top of the ladder to experience nothing else but one? Cool. Do it on occasion. Drop in a little toad.

Starting point is 00:48:04 But the gift is that we have the illusion of time. The gift is that we have seasons. The gift is that we have each other to love and learn from. And that also in the fullest expression of yes means we've got some darkness. We've got a bit of all flavors. Totally. Yeah. Relationships are one of the most important things. I mean, if we look back at our life, you know, all of the growth that we had from relationships, it's unprecedented in terms of anything else that we've experienced. It occurs to me that, you know, that might be the most importantant path or the sannyasin and just go off into the monastery. But it's like how to do that in the world is considerably harder as a householder, as you know. Yeah, no doubt. No doubt at all, brother.

Starting point is 00:48:55 Well, let's talk about some tips here for that because we've got parenting. Obviously, that's one of the ultimate relationships. It's funny. When I was in open relationship for a few years, it felt to me like the ceremony that didn't end. You know, like ayahuasca's got an eight-hour window. Right. Vogue has got 36 hours max, you know. But it is going to end. And you know that. Like, all right, at some point.

Starting point is 00:49:21 And sometimes I've written that down for harder journeys. At some point, I'm going to be sober again. And I'll be able to process this no matter how hard it gets. And I thought about that with Open. And eventually when we had learned what we needed to learn and grown in the ways that we needed to grow and had expanded our tribe, we were good. And we both were good. And it was like, okay, cool. And it really, in a beautiful way, brought us back to each other and to our family.

Starting point is 00:49:52 And not without all the fucking trials and tribulations and hardship that come with that, the challenge that's required to truly transform. And we ended it and it was like, oh, this, this, this is a ceremony that does end. You just got to say stop, right? So it can end. It's not the ceremony that doesn't end, right? Parenting is a ceremony that doesn't end for the most part. There's a lot of people who can make that end, but Godsey was telling me the other day at our Fit for Service event that Jung said, you know, you can avoid, the things you avoid in the psyche will haunt you the rest of your life. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:50:30 Anything you avoid in the psyche will haunt you the rest of your life. Yeah, they say what you fail to meet on the inside, you'll meet on the outside. Yeah. And that is so true too to parenting because there's a lot of, if you have a fucking kid and you don't show up, good luck scratching that from your mind. If you're a deadbeat dad, and I know this isn't a one-size-fits-all, there are mothers who aren't fit to mother and they have to give their kids away or the kids get taken away. That's not the experience. They're still in that ceremony.

Starting point is 00:51:01 So that does qualify as the ceremony that doesn't end. And it is the thing that is perhaps the most important if we think about what we do in the world for the future. A lot of people have grandiose ideas about their nonprofit or different things like that, or I'm a father to many. And it's like, yeah, but no, you know, like when you have kids, there's a different layer of commitment and a different layer of literally seeding the next generation. Yeah. And everything you do is the future, right? The Khalil Gibran and the prophet, his poem, and I won't try to regurgitate it, but his

Starting point is 00:51:37 poem on parenting is perhaps one of the greatest ever written, you know, and talking about that arch, you don't get to see the future, but you are, but you are shooting the bow and arrow and your kids are the arrow. How you aim is going to determine how far they go into the future. Yeah, totally. There's so much to say there. I mean, for one, I just want to touch on the state of our children right now. I was listening to a podcast recently from a doctor and I can't remember its name, but I'll get it to you after. And he was basically saying that, first of all, there's like an 82% drop in marriage these days. Like nobody wants to get married anymore. And he was going around to different schools.

Starting point is 00:52:15 He visited something like 400 or 500 different schools, elementary and middle schools, and surveying and meeting with students and young men and young women. And the young men were really, really challenged. He asked, how many of you have at least 1,000 pictures of porn on a device? And pretty much every single kid in the auditorium raised their hand, except for three that were like Mormon or some kind of like really strict religious

Starting point is 00:52:43 where it was prohibited. And he was saying that the point is not whether or not they have that many, but this idea that it's cool to have. It's like it's become a norm that we are just in this sort of virtual, you know, pornographic world, which was not really accessible to us when we were kids and anywhere like it is now. I got a hold of one of my friend's uncle's videos when I was seven and that was like- Yeah, lucky if we had a magazine or something. Yeah, exactly.

Starting point is 00:53:09 And so, our young men, and then he was also saying how they're being taught in school, hey, it's too dangerous to be with a woman because if you do and you do anything wrong, it's on you. With all the kind of the Me Too stuff and this and that, it's like, if you do and you do anything wrong, it's on you. You know, with all the kind of the Me Too stuff and this and that, it's like, if you do anything wrong

Starting point is 00:53:28 that's even perceived to be inappropriate, you know, your ass is grass, so to speak. So you're better off just staying home and masturbating and not even engaging in relationships. And so, you know, these children are, they have a loss of role models, right? So, the kinds of things that we did when we were kids, like maybe go hunting or camping or fishing or seeing our dad in a particular way, now children are watching their parents playing video games for seven, eight hours a night or watching TV. And so, there's this completely loss of connection.

Starting point is 00:54:02 So, young men are completely struggling. The young women are doing much better than the men in terms of academics, which is kind of a flip, right? But we don't have, we have this loss of role models. And we have, men have been pretty much taken out of early child education. It's pretty much completely females. The female students are doing a lot better, but they're not finding men that they want to be in partnership with. That's because men have been systematically taught how to not be men. Pretty much.

Starting point is 00:54:35 And they don't have proper role models, right? And so, it's really kind of a challenge. And us as parents, the most important thing you can do is just spend time with your kid and model to them these kinds of things. Go take them out into nature. Have them play have them do, you know, play sports with you, have them paint with you, have them, you know, engage with them. And that's something that's like really sort of lost right now. Yeah. And I don't want to shit on all the parents who throw an iPad on occasionally, like we'll throw the iPad on for Wolf while we're cooking dinner.

Starting point is 00:55:03 If it's just one parent and she's, you know, wants to be in our arms while hot bacon's cooking and things like that. It's like, all right, watch a little Winnie the Pooh or whatever it is, Daniel Tiger. When you're feeling mad and you want to roar, just take a deep breath and count to four. We watch that too. And they're slow slow I think that's an important piece if you're going to do media for kids especially the younger ones, have it slow these fast moving fucking pictures and things like that these new Pixar films literally causes ADHD and shit

Starting point is 00:55:36 and restlessness and unprocessed emotional states but the idea that you're going to come home and have me time while your kids are still awake and not connect with them and that they can have their iPad or go online to fucking do their schoolwork when they're definitely, you know, they might crank school work out if they get, want to get good grades, but you know what they're doing after that.

Starting point is 00:55:59 It's whatever the fuck they want online and, Oh no, there's parental controls and all that. Yeah. All right. There's, there's ways around that shit right there's there's ways around that shit there's plenty of ways around that point is um i see that so often and the other thing as a man you know like uh for everything that was hard about my childhood the flip side of that coin is my father always wrestled with me he always played with me i remember when he turned off the fucking we're from from the Bay area, the 49ers are in the playoffs. Joe Montana's at quarterback and I'd be watching the game and I'd be like, dad,

Starting point is 00:56:32 will you throw us three flies up? And he'd turn the TV off and throw us three flies up the whole fucking day. You know, I have a lot of memories like that. And you know, it doesn't matter. Like that's part of the role of the father is that in any parent for that matter, especially hard on moms and single moms is that you do put a piece of yourself behind until it's the right time to deliver for them. Right. And that means, you know, I got to turn off the playoffs. If you're still watching football, I stopped watching TV a long time ago, unless it's a movie. But to go outside and play and to do those things and interact and to get on the ground and just let them act like you're the fucking horsey. Any of those things where you're wrestling, your tickle time, that matters so much.

Starting point is 00:57:17 And it's weird to me how many parents and friends that I have that don't do that ever with their kids, ever. The thing about that too is like, it turns out for me at least, that that's not actually just for my kids, right? Because that's actually the vitamin that I'm missing in my life. It's just rolling on the ground, playing with them, being curious,

Starting point is 00:57:39 looking at world through their eyes. That's what I've lost when I'm stuck into my computer or my work, right? So this playfulness, this curiosity, this spontaneity, this magic and mystery of life that kids naturally have that we don't want to squash, we want to support, but that's actually also what we need. You know, it's like how to roll with that.

Starting point is 00:58:00 Like when I'm in my, if I'm doing process work with a client and my kids just like bust open the door into my room because they want my computer to watch Harry Potter or something like that. It's like, instead of getting pissed off and saying, you know, get out of here. I told you, you know, you got to be quiet. I'm with a client. It's like, all right, where do we need to be more playful? Where do we need to bust open a door right now? You know? And so I think that the kids have so much to offer to us in that way of that when we do connect with them down on their level, it's actually the vitamins that we need as well for life and not just doing it in service of them, which is also very important.

Starting point is 00:58:37 Because if not, we'll be living with that for the rest of our life. And from a karmic perspective, we'll be living with that for a long time, the cause and effect of our life. And, you know, from a karmic perspective, we'll be living with that for a long time, you know, the cause and effect of our choices. Yeah. I remember as my wife and her mother's relationship has grown throughout our 10 years of living together and being married, my wife had told me this many times, but how, you know, her major love languages touch, but she never had an affectionate parent. And even though her mom did many great things from gardening to raising goats and chickens and all the, all the different things as a farmer and being out in nature all the time, she finally said that she goes, I really regret not showing you more love and affection. And we were blown the fuck away.

Starting point is 00:59:26 And I think about that. They talk about like the five things people most regret when they're on their deathbed. Sure. Wish I had worked less. Wish I had spent more time with friends. You know, it goes down the list. I would never want that to be a regret that I had. You know, I'd never want the regret to be, I'm sorry I worked too much and didn't spend enough time with you. I was trying

Starting point is 00:59:46 to leave you with money or a house or some fucking thing, an object. I will happily make less money right now to spend more time with my kid. Totally. And I'm glad you brought up death because that's such an edgy topic for many people. And that's really what these shamanic experiences teach us, right? And all of these ancient wisdom cultures all had guidebooks for dying. But some of the things that have helped me is like living each day like it's your last. This idea that at any moment,

Starting point is 01:00:18 an 18 wheeler can roll down this parkway and just roll us over, right? And it's like, how do we live where each act, each moment is as if it's our last? What kind of energy and kind of purpose and intensity would we put into realizing that this may be our last battle on earth every time? So, in the Castaneda books of Don Juan, they talk about using death as your spiritual advisor and that your death sits behind you at an arm's length behind you over your left

Starting point is 01:00:53 shoulder. And be willing to turn around and talk to death and think about the decisions in the context of what would death advise you when you're, am I gonna work a little bit more or am I gonna work with my kids? Okay, let me talk to my death and see what she has to say. I'm imagining a she, what she has to say about that, right? And might you make a different choice when you're thinking in the context of,

Starting point is 01:01:19 if this was my last day on earth, would I be doing this? And that's where I think you can learn to really live because you start to let go of all the things that are not important and you can really integrate that into your living life. So it's learning to die each day to our attachments, learning to die to our disagreements,

Starting point is 01:01:39 learning to die to all of our kind of material desires that may not be serving us. And then you can truly live in the moment. I love that. Yeah, learning to die to all of our kind of material desires that may not be serving us. And then you can truly live in the moment. I love that. Yeah, learning to die to our disagreements reminds me of like letting go of the need to be right. Right. And how that has been a massive game changer

Starting point is 01:01:57 in my relationship with my parents, with my kids, with my wife. Totally. Everyone that matters, you know, like it really does. You know, I just want to say one thing on that. We use this word debate, but the root of debate, bait is beat. So it's like we're beating each other when we're talking, right? But it's the right translation turns out to be argument because argument comes from Argentum and in the Bhagavad Gita, the main

Starting point is 01:02:23 character, the warrior's name is Arjuna. And this Argentum is silver. And so, a real argument is polishing the silver, trying to get down to, down polishing away the dust and all of the grime to get down to the truth. I love that. That's phenomenal. If we were still doing one minute clips, that'd be it for sure. You know, a couple of things that came up for me in approaching death and how, you know, to, I remember in the Immortality Key by Brian Maruscu when he talks about the necessity of these ceremonies and these rites of passage as a means of dying before you die so that you may live. And you brought up the born-again Christian. Well, like the authentic born-again Christian is the one who has died before they die so that they may live. And that book is all on early Christianity.

Starting point is 01:03:16 As you know, we've read that. I've read it a couple of times. But that to me is, you know, you've brought up quite a few things, quite a few misnomers that set us on the incorrect path, right? YOLO, you only live once, things like that. The fact that we might get punished, you know, and many people believe that we're going to be punished and held accountable for all of the wrongdoing and things like that. Looking at all that aside, the loss of rite of passage, the loss of ceremony, the loss of initiation, I think is one of the main courses of action on why we have boys trapped in men meat suits. Yeah.

Starting point is 01:03:58 Yeah. Totally. Totally. I mean, you said it great, but yes, these ancient cultures had these rites of passage where it was really a matter of life and death. If you could not pass these very difficult challenges, you were not suitable actually to be in the tribe and you could be dangerous to your other family members. And there's no worse fate than being kicked out of a tribe. It's a certain death. Slow death. Right, yeah. It's just a hard time. It's in our rites of passage now,

Starting point is 01:04:31 or I don't even know what we would call them. But like when I was a kid, it was purely a religious thing. We grew up Jewish and we had a bar mitzvah, but all that was about was memorizing some lines so you can get certain gifts and have a party, right? We're talking about a completely different set of rituals. And, you know, I think it's really important not only for children, but for all of us to have a practice of daily ritual and to have seasonal initiations

Starting point is 01:04:57 because it really connects us to what our purpose here is on earth. Yeah, it's a way to recenter. Bill Plotkin talks a lot about that in The Soul of Initiation like, you know, uh, adolescence and certain things, you know, we, we, we know the female's body will come online at a certain point in time when their first period happens, they have transitioned. That is a ceremony in and of itself, but for boys, it's not quite the same, you know, and, and, um, you know, to say you're an adult simply because you turned 30 or become a dad or any X fill in the blank, right? There's, uh, you don't become an elder simply because you grew older. That just doesn't work that way. Right. And to really

Starting point is 01:05:37 hit these things on a soul level that does take initiation. Uh, I remember Maladoma Patrice Sommet said in Water of Spirit that if initiation did not contain within it the element of death, if the potential for your own death wasn't there and it didn't exist in the ceremony, it was not a true initiation. And that speaks exactly what you're talking about. We're talking about a real fucking initiation.

Starting point is 01:06:03 Like you have a chance that you don't come back. Yeah. Well, maybe let's explore that for a second. I mean, have you ever thought about your death? Have you ever imagined how it is that you might die? I once had a vision on a five-day water fast and 200 micrograms of LSD on Cathedral Rock in Sedona. And I was there with a pretty prominent author

Starting point is 01:06:24 who was one of my favorite people on the planet, but, you know, likes to remain anonymous around these things. I'll tell you after. And I actually witnessed hiking back on that mountain somewhere in my late eighties, early nineties, you know, with the support of my wife, who is still fit, you know, and fucking robust.

Starting point is 01:06:43 And I went up there and microdosed and just slowly, slowly let go into that mountain. Yeah. Yeah. And as you let go into the mountain, did you notice anything? Was there something there after that, that kind of visualization of the death?

Starting point is 01:06:58 A lightness, like a freeing of myself from within the confines of my body and an experiencing of everything around me, from the birds, the mountains, the wind. And it felt liberating and peaceful. Right. So the key in that, just in this quick little conversation,

Starting point is 01:07:18 is how to integrate that into your life now. Right? That lightness, that awareness, that sense of that way of being. It's like, that's who you are and you don't have to wait to die to touch that. That's brilliant. Yeah. Yeah. Really the only times where I've experienced that, I mean, there's ecstatic states, of course, in peak experiences, but through Ziva meditation, Emily Fletcher's meditation, she's a fellow New Yorker and been on the podcast.

Starting point is 01:07:47 It's a Vedic style meditation with a mantra. And it's only in those meditations, particularly in the afternoon when I'm feeling a little tired, where I have that dissolve, that lightness. And then that's my second cup of coffee. That's the thing that allows me to transition from work into parenting with smooth sailing and all the thing that allows me to transition from work into parenting with smooth sailing and, you know, all the patience that's necessary in working with a toddler and a seven-year-old, you know? Yeah, there's more to say on death, but before that, you brought up mantras, and I just want to say how important mantras have been in my life.

Starting point is 01:08:19 I mean, in the Vedas, they talk about that these Sanskrit words are literally chunks of Brahman. Brahman is this realm that's three quarters, they say three quarters of existence, that's this completely effulgent, full, brilliant place, what we all emanate from down into earth, where we all come from as individuals, but from the same place and in essence, the same thing. And the Vedas say that the Sanskrit words were chunks of Brahman that like us emanated from Brahman down here into this realm. So when you're singing or chanting a Sanskrit mantra,

Starting point is 01:08:57 you're having a direct experience of that beyond realm. They say param gate, it's like beyond to that ultimate realm. And so when you're chanting those words, what's interesting is you're having that direct experience of God or that direct experience of source through the mantra. You know, and Sanskrit is a really interesting language

Starting point is 01:09:18 because it's not necessarily the oldest language, but it's the most perfect language. And there's many reasons for that. First, it has a 50-letter alphabet, which far exceeds what we have. Second of all, they use what's called Jyotish, which is throughout the Vedas and throughout all these historical texts, they have hundreds and hundreds of solar lunar references of the exact place of the planets, the sun, and the moon. At the times when these things were written down. This guy, Nilesh Oak was able to use now computers and all the different

Starting point is 01:09:53 references to the planets to go to kind of figure out the age of these documents. And it says the Bhagavad Gita is about 7,500 years old, but this Sanskrit is an unchanging language, first because of the 50-letter alphabet, second because of the Jyotish and how it literally connects the language to the position of stars over time. It has something like 4,000 grammatical rules. It has something like over 2,000 etymology root words, so every single word will come back to one of 2000 roots. It has a specific pronunciation of how you say the syllable itself, right? A particular place in your mouth or in your throat that you're saying this. It's read in what's called a Gayatri meter, a specific poetic meter. So there's a rhythm. So it makes it easy to memorize. And it goes on and on

Starting point is 01:10:46 and on. The point is that in English, think about Shakespeare in English from, I don't know, maybe 400 years ago or something like that. I don't know when Shakespeare was two to 400 years ago, probably. You can't even understand that anymore, right? And if you go to different parts of this country, people are speaking completely, almost completely different languages at times, right? Completely different dialects. And so, the point is just that when you're singing a mantra or you're using a mantra, you're having like a piece of history that is unchangeable and that is giving you a direct experience to source of where it emanated from in its same way.

Starting point is 01:11:25 I love that. Yeah. Emily talks about it as the vehicle, right? And that vehicle can steer the ship from mind down to the quiet center or back to source, whatever you want to look at that. Totally. You know, I love that vehicle, especially for householders because it's a game changer. Yeah. So back to death though for a second.

Starting point is 01:11:43 If you could just, you know, maybe everybody at home could just try this out with us. And it's just a little experiment. We'll see how it goes. But if you could just like think for a second of a big question in your life or something that's maybe disturbing you or something that's been on your mind. And yeah, just kind of focus on that.

Starting point is 01:12:01 If you're at home, maybe you can write it down. Just think of this big question, something you've been searching for. Could even be a little question or something disturbing you. And then when you have that, just drop that for a moment and think of a body symptom or some kind of illness that you fear dying from the most.

Starting point is 01:12:23 What would be something that you fear the most that you fear dying from the most, what would be something that you fear the most that you die from? Maybe heart disease or heart attack or, you know, I don't know, it could be anything, but just whatever your largest fear is. And really sense that in your body. Where in this moment do you feel that fear or that symptom?

Starting point is 01:12:45 And feel how that feels inside your body. And see if that wants to move your body in any particular way, where you might start moving, you might start swaying. And really sense down into that feeling and see if any visions or any images pop up. And wait until you get down and you really understand the essence of that in your body and you feel like you're being moved. You feel like you're being breathed. And when you touch that place

Starting point is 01:13:19 and when you're down there, really try to shapeshift and become that figure or that energy that you just touched on. Really sense, what is this experience trying to tell me in this moment? What is this figure? What is this energy? What is this that lies underneath this fear of this illness or this disease. And then when you touch that, you can ask yourself, is this something new to me or is this something that's been around from time to time?

Starting point is 01:13:55 And how can I take what I just experienced and the essence of what I just learned and apply it to the problem that I started out with? And how can I use this in my life And how can I use this in my life? And how can I use this in the world? Did you have an experience? I did. Yeah. Yeah. A couple of years ago when shit hit the fan with the plan and seeing it kind of unfold the way that it did. I was the first time where just picking something up off the floor, I threw my lower back out. Wow. And in that time, you know, like literally at the moment that that got thrown out, I probably had like,

Starting point is 01:14:46 not a PR, but still over 500 pound deadlift. This is very strong, mobile. And I threw that out. And that was maybe the first time where I felt like, not the first time, but it was, um, the first back injury. And the first time where I felt like I maybe couldn't trust that I'd always have my body. Right. Even with all the health practices and everything else that I've been into for 20 years. And done a lot to rehab that. I actually went to an easy strength program that I love from Pavel Tatsulin and used that to rehab my back along with mobility and a lot of other things. But ultimately, it was the relinquishment of fear.

Starting point is 01:15:29 So this, as Paul says, all stress from these buckets leads to one stress in the body. And if that one stress is chronic and they're long enough, that becomes dis-ease. Right. Right. And so really thinking about what is that lower back, that root chakra, that security. Sure. Grappling with the fate of the world

Starting point is 01:15:52 and seeing things unfold in the way that it did and not trusting how that pans out, not seeing a way it was going to work, coming into a different understanding of the game that's being played right now by certain people had an impact on my feeling of safety and security and manifested in a pretty gnarly low back injury. And at times, anytime that comes back, it's very light. It's not to the same effect. But anytime I'm feeling

Starting point is 01:16:20 tightness in there, that is the reflection for me in meditation. Where is there fear right now? And typically as I alleviate that, my back pain goes away. Right. Yeah. Did you have, what did you fear dying from the most? Or did you feel like, was it just a complete loss of your body? It's a complete loss of my body. Because I thought about that. Well, cancer is a sneaky guy. You don't really know until it's too late sometimes, but you know, I, I really don't fear cancer. I don't fear. But it's just this idea of losing, losing your body. Losing my ability. If I was paralyzed for the rest of my life, something like that, that's a far stronger fear being alive and not having the full faculties.

Starting point is 01:17:02 So, you know, for, you know, if you're saying paralyzed, and you know, it's kind of hard to do in this setting, but to experience for a moment what it would be like to be completely paralyzed, to really go into that paralyzation, right? To just feel what it feels like to be in your body and to notice maybe what comes up, what images are arising, you know, is there a consciousness still there,

Starting point is 01:17:22 even though my body's not working and really feel and become this paralyzed and then it's like how do i become paralyzed in my life you know how do i become detached to all the things that i'm trying to do how do i you know almost like way woo way live life but almost like as if i was paralyzed maybe Maybe I'm not the one doing it. I'm not the one being the mover. I'm being moved, like spirit is moving through me in my wheelchair, or I'm just completely detached and letting go while I'm also in the world and doing these things. So, these things that we're afraid of, or these things that we fear the most, like these deaths

Starting point is 01:18:01 or these illnesses or symptoms, they're actually a secondary part of us that are in our dreaming process, that are calling out to us and asking us to collect and to integrate back into our wholeness, right? And it's not about getting rid of who you are or about your primary, but it's about being more than who you identify with in this moment. And so, that know, that idea of being paralyzed is sort of very similar to my life process too. It's like, I'm very like an active guy and this whole idea of letting go and almost like being paralyzed while also being active is my integration as well. And I think for many of us that are sort of this, you know, go-getter, doer, American kick-ass enculturation type people. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. As you were bringing that up, I had a couple more memories come up around,

Starting point is 01:18:54 in particular, in plant medicine journeys where it's been a real struggle for me to let go of needing to be helped. Right. And you know, at the, at the right dose, you fucking don't have any more control. No. You know, and I've certainly gravitated towards those. But even, you know, when we sat together last August, that fear was still there, you know, hundreds of journeys in, big journeys. And that fear kept coming up for me. Don't be the guy that requires everyone's help. Yeah. And I think that to me is a big part of the paralyzation is that I am not the provider.

Starting point is 01:19:34 I'm the one in need. Totally. And if you marginalize those ideas, life will bring you circumstances to help you incorporate those. And so for me, I'm very much the same. I'm like, I'm going to do everything by myself. I'm going to just take care of everything and just go get it. And that's why I think I picked a career in trading of like a very like,

Starting point is 01:19:54 you're on your own. It's almost like being an athlete where your performance, your batting average is strictly your own. There's no real team involved. And so I'm going to do everything myself because I can't rely on anybody. But then late last year, I woke up after having a piece of super organic duck, but I started having all of these stomach problems. And I wound up, it's a very long story, but after extreme, extreme pain of trying to manage this at home for weeks, I wound up in a really tough spot in the emergency room with a perforated appendix. We're talking about this life process and I had this piece of duck and, you know, I didn't really realize this, but I have done a lot of trips to Africa. One of the really cool things actually that I did, which I'd be happy to talk about,

Starting point is 01:20:37 but is a persistence hunt in Africa where I went down and lived with a tribe for two weeks in Namibia, right in the village. Explain the location of that. Africa is massive. Yeah. Botswana, Namibia, South Africa. South Africa. Yeah. Southern Africa. And I was in the Kalahari Desert living with Kalahari Bushmen. And it was very interesting because they were sort of the last of their people. Unfortunately, the West has made its way down even into the bush of Southern tips of Africa, right? So, where the men that I was with and hunting with were between probably 40 and 65, these three amazing African guys. I can tell you more about them, but their children had already

Starting point is 01:21:24 not wanted to take up the way of the Bushmen for the first time in history. So, I'm literally witnessing the last Bushmen, which is such a horrible, horrible thing to even conceive about. But we went down there and we tried to hunt by running animals down just through running after them and tiring them out. Because the idea is that as humans, we can carry water, even though the Africans, they barely even have any water and they're able to do these incredible feats. I was out there and they were saying, okay, now we're going to go sprinting after this animal. And I said, all right, one, two, three, go. And by the time I looked up to see where I was even going, they were gone.

Starting point is 01:22:06 Like, you know, like so fast moving like the wind, just like incredible athletes, barely carrying any water, you know, along the path, it was this really incredible pace, this sort of seasonality to it because we'd go out and every 50 minutes, we'd stop for tobacco. And they didn't have a clock. It was just this natural rhythm where we'd go and we hunt, we'd run for about 50 minutes. And then if we weren't in pursuit of something,

Starting point is 01:22:36 we'd always stop for a 10 minute tobacco break. And that went throughout the day until we hit one o'clock when we'd stop for about 90 minutes or two hours and take a nap under a tree and then go back for those 50 minute clips unless we were in pursuit of something. And then we would continue until we either lost an animal or were successful and then take the tobacco break, right? But so, I was down there living in these conditions and I came home and I had all these

Starting point is 01:23:02 parasites and all these things, which I didn't really even know I had, you know, and just years of travel. And then sort of those years of being overweight and not having like, you know, completely cleaned out. So I was dealing with these like, you know, bacterial and parasite issues that were kind of lingering under the surface for me. And I had this piece of duck, woke up, had this incredible lower abdominal pain, tried for two weeks with like everything that I could think of from colonics to acupuncture, to chiropractor, to everything. And I just, you know, fasting, I was like, well, if they can cure cancer by fasting, I'm sure I could clear this, this stomach issue out. So, you know, stopped eating, you know, just, just liquids. And I just was in so much pain to the point where I was like

Starting point is 01:23:43 going unconscious, like terrible, terrible situation. And, you know, I went to the hospital and I went through this whole kind of extreme process of being in and out of the hospital three times. I was in a really tough spot in Albany and I got it out of there, kept my appendix, but like came home was still in a lot of pain. Wind up having an infection that came from that and had an abscess that formed the size of a softball down in my pelvis, which was incredibly painful. And I had to have a surgery, which is really against me, you know, my principles, you know, in terms of like Western medicine and, you know, really relying on natural stuff. And, you know, it goes on and on and on, but to hit your point, this whole idea of not being able to do things all by

Starting point is 01:24:26 myself, because I had ignored those smaller signals that first come as a dream, first come as a flirt or a fantasy or a synchronicity, then they come up with maybe like a low back pain or something like that. And if you keep marginalizing these other parts to yourself, they eventually, these messages get louder and louder until you have a perforated appendix and you're lying in a hospital bed and you have your wife having to wipe your ass because you can't even move.

Starting point is 01:24:55 You have nurses and doctors literally taking care of you. My brother flew in, he was rubbing my feet with THC cream. My mom's rubbing my hands and I'm on the phone with my dad, you know, and just reaching out to him for support. All of these things that, you know, I had marginalized in this idea of thinking I could do everything myself showed up in a physical symptom, right? And now when you get to that point, you really have the opportunity to go one or two ways. You could just go like the complete medical route where you're like getting surgeries and your life's over and you're just miserable.

Starting point is 01:25:28 Or you can say like, what is this process trying to bring to me? What was the essence of this? Was I working so hard that I needed a process to just make me lie down and do nothing? How do I incorporate that back into my life? Was I relying on myself so much that I marginalized the support of my family, of my friends, of my community? How do I bring that back into my life? Was I suppressing emotion so much that I had to have something burst? How do I bring that back into my life? And so, yeah, it was just really an incredible experience

Starting point is 01:26:11 of really having a firsthand experience about how these parts of our dreaming process, these parts that are secondary to us that we're not really that in touch with, how important they are to pay attention to them, how to pay attention to these small signals. And these ideas of touching these death exercises before you get to that point can help you get in touch with that dreaming process now.

Starting point is 01:26:35 Yeah, that's massive. That's massive. Makes me think of the unfinished work as back pain creeps back in on occasion, you know? And yeah, that speaks to me deeply. So thank you, brother. That's a lot that I'm going to need to process and chew on. Yeah, the fact that it's not 100% solved, you know, and that even though I can dissolve to a certain extent

Starting point is 01:27:02 through the meditation, I think these other missing pieces still need to be incorporated clearly. Yeah. There's, on consensus reality, there's, okay, I have back pain. I did deadlifts. My back hurts. I'm taking this maybe herbal medicine or this cream or whatever. But then there's this whole dreaming process that's happening.

Starting point is 01:27:23 What does the back pain feel like? Like, does it feel like somebody's putting you into a vice? Does it feel like something's pulling you? You know, there's all these descriptive kind of dreamlike qualities of it. And then if you get into those, what does that feel like in my body? What kind of hand gesture could I make?

Starting point is 01:27:42 If I had a pillow here, how would I mold the back pain into something? What kind of hand gesture could I make? If I had a pillow here, how would I mold the back pain into something? What kind of figure is there? And all of a sudden I'm like choking out this pillow and it's like, who or what am I choking? Who's doing the choking? And then getting into a fluid role play with that, where you talk to that part of yourself and then you become that part and you have that part talk to you. And you really get to know both sides of what's underneath this physical back pain is a whole dreaming level. And then underneath that is this essence level, this sort of just energetic quality of maybe underneath that back pain, I'm guessing maybe the essence of surrendering or letting go or something like that, or dropping something that you're holding, right? And you wouldn't know until we go through that process,

Starting point is 01:28:30 but this idea that our physical, our body symptoms are really our allies. Our body symptoms are our allies because they're there to awaken us to our growth and potential. The thing as you say this, that's coming up for me right now is, if I describe it,

Starting point is 01:28:48 I think it's like a pinch or a sharp stab. And what that translates to for me is a loss of mobility, which translates to a loss of freedom. And if I think about the world at large and already all over the world, I see a loss of freedom. So there is that fear of loss of freedom that hasn't gone away.

Starting point is 01:29:10 As optimistic as I am, as many trees as I plant, as much as I prep, the fear of loss of freedom still exists. And not just for me, but for my kids. Yeah. Yeah. I think that's a big one for all of us. When I look around the world and like, you know, during this whole, you know, pandemic stuff, you can't, you can't even

Starting point is 01:29:30 go to a park with your kids, you know, and you can't even do the things that are just like, were so natural for us, um, as children. And that to me, it's like the fun got taken out of life in a lot of ways. And, you know, you know, it forces you to create your own experiences at home and to adapt, but that's really what motivates me too is to make sure that our children can grow up in in freedom in a free environment and you know i think osho says freedom is the most dangerous thing you can ever ask for because true freedom means taking full responsibility for yourself which is beyond what most people are willing or capable to do, because they want to basically give over their power to authority figures or to different, you know, rule makers or,

Starting point is 01:30:12 you know, to their families, to their culture, to their societies. You know, ultimately, what we're on here is what Castaneda describes as a death walk, okay? And this death walk is a really interesting idea in that a long time ago in the mountains, you know, live some native people. And every once in a while, a member of the tribe would break one of the rules of the tribe. And they have to stand in front of the jury of their peers.

Starting point is 01:30:41 And if they were found guilty, there was basically one of three things that could happen. They had to, first of all, they had to go before a firing squad of their peers for breaking the rules of the tribe. And they had one or two things could happen. One is they could be shot, of course. Two, they could be so detached and centered that somehow in like a matrix style neo movement, they could stay so centered and balanced that they could navigate the firing squad and maybe just get out with a broken heart and a lot of wounds, but survive it. But the last way was they could stand in a particular way that was so congruent and so integrated and so harmonious and so powerful

Starting point is 01:31:27 that the jury couldn't pull the trigger, right? And so, I think with this concept of freedom is that we have to realize we're all on a death walk right now, right? First of all, there's the inner jury. We're all dealing with our inner critics and the inner voices that are taking aim at us. We're all dealing with these secondary parts of ourself that spirit is bringing in, like an appendicitis or like the back pain, for example, and calling us into growth and our full potentiality. We also are facing the death walk and the jury of our peers. It's our family, our culture, society, our government saying, this is what a man has to do. This is what it means to be a man. This is what it means to be a woman. This is what you can do,

Starting point is 01:32:17 can't say, et cetera. And the big death walk is the one that we're all facing together, which I think the people that are pointing the fingers at others at this point in time really need to think about is this idea that nature is taking aim at us. We're all on this big death walk together with Mother Nature found guilty and likely to get shot in the firing squad. And so, yeah, this whole idea of really being free, really not being afraid to, it's, you know, the crowd is always going to say, you know, point a finger at you for wanting to dare to be different to stepping out because they're going to say, you know, why are you making it so difficult on us? Like, isn't it okay with just the way the things are? knowing that it could be their last and that standing there in full congruency and full integration and full centeredness and calmness in living the way that they know to be right, knowing that even if their physical body dies, that their ideas can never be lost. Their spirit can never be lost and that lives on.

Starting point is 01:33:41 And maybe just in standing up in this trial, the jury itself will realize that if any one of us is on trial, we're all on trial. And here we are all are on this big trial together with mother earth, you know, having us in the crosshairs right now. Absolutely brother. Well, I hate to stop it here, but we got to. We're for sure running this back the second you're back in town. Where can people find you? Where can people work with you? life process coaching. So I have 12 years of working with Paul Cech and all the Cech Institute stuff. I'm an advanced student of biogeometry. I do a lot of shamanic training. I've studied with White Eagle Medicine Woman out in Alaska for different psychological techniques

Starting point is 01:34:37 like balancing the shields and community drumming and all sorts of healing work and many other things. So you can reach me there, contact me there and reach out, we're working together. Fuck yeah. Thank you so much for that. Thank you. It's a pleasure. Bye.

Kyle Kingsbury Podcast - #255 Jason Pickard

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