Kyle Kingsbury Podcast - #280 Paul Saladino aka Carnivore Doc

Episode Date: December 2, 2022

Carnivore MD aka Paul Saladino is back in the house, legitimately, we got to actually sit down and enjoy a solid catch-up in person, which I love. If you have followed him through the past few years, you’ve seen his evolution into a meat-based diet over strict carnivore. If you aren’t familiar and are interested in metabolic health, listen up. He is possibly the best resource for those interested in an ancestral way of looking at food/health. Keep your trigger finger on the pause button and don’t think you’re gonna listen at 1.5+x speed. Enjoy and keep learning yall!   PS - Paul’s hooking yall up! Head to heartandsoil.co and use code: “KKP” for 10% off   ORGANIFI GIVEAWAY Keep those reviews coming in! Please drop a dope review and include your IG/Twitter handle and we’ll get together for some Organifi even faster moving forward.   Full Temple Reset  and Fit For Service 2023 Core Program  are live! Head to the links above and explore the pages, consider your options and hopefully ultimately sign up. I hope to see yall on the path next year!   Connect with Paul:   Website: heartandsoil.co  www.carnivoremd.com  Instagram: @carnivoremd2.0  YouTube: CarnivoreMD Twitter: @carnivoremd   Podcast: Fundamental Health w/ Paul Saladino Spotify Apple   Sponsors:   Cured Nutrition has a wide variety of stellar, naturally sourced, products. They’re chock full of adaptogens and cannabinoids to optimize your meatsuit. You can get 20% off by heading over to www.curednutrition.com/KKP  using code “KKP” Lucy Go to lucy.co and use codeword “KKP” at Checkout to get 20% off the best nicotine gum in the game, or check out their lozenge. Bioptimizers To get the ’Magnesium Breakthrough‘ deal exclusively for fans of the podcast, click the link below and use code word “KINGSBU10” for an additional 10% off. magbreakthrough.com/kingsbu  Desnuda Organic Tequila Sometimes being fully optimized entails cutting loose with some close homies. We have just the sponsor for that occasion. Head over to www.desnudatequila.com for the tippy toppest shelf tequila in the game. Use Code “KKP” for 15% off your first order!!    To Work With Kyle Kingsbury Podcast   Connect with Kyle:   Fit For Service Academy App: Fit For Service Academy  Instagram: @livingwiththekingsburys   Odysee: odysee.com/@KyleKingsburypod  Youtube: Kyle Kingbury Podcast  Kyles website: www.kingsbu.com  Zion Node: https://getzion.com/ > Enter PubKey  >PubKey: YXykqSCaSTZNMy2pZI2o6RNIN0YDtHgvarhy18dFOU25_asVcBSiu691v4zM6bkLDHtzQB2PJC4AJA7BF19HVWUi7fmQ   Like and subscribe to the podcast anywhere you can find podcasts. Leave a 5-star review and let me know what resonates or doesn’t.  

Welcome back to the podcast. This week, we have the return of the carnivore dog, Paul Saladino. And if many of you have been following him online like I have, you've watched his guy just absolutely take off. He's closing in on a million followers. Really has been one of the best spoken, intelligent voices in the field of food and was a big proponent of meat as medicine and organ meat, eating nose to tail. He started his own company, Heart and Soil, which is a phenomenal organ meat company. And it's just been blazing the trail. And since moving to Costa Rica has started to introduce other foods into his diet, namely fruits, honey, and different things like that. And now even raw dairy and continues to look phenomenal, continues to educate those

and continues to inspire many people. This one went a long ass time, a lot longer than I normally do. He spoke a million miles an hour. So keep in mind, you're not listening at one and a half X or two X. Paul came in fucking hyped. He's a good buddy. And it's been a while since we got to sit down and he talks very fast for fucking two hours straight. So he literally blew my mind because, you know, he's been a friend of mine. We've hung out many times, shared many a bull testicle. And I just had no idea. I mean, he came in just red hot. This is one of my favorite podcasts that I've done. Easily one of the most important right now with what Paul's doing,

which is going to hospitals, prominent hospitals like the Mayo Clinic. I don't know if he's been in the Cleveland Clinic, but he listed off, just read off a ton of different places. Dell's Children's Hospital, places where you go to get healing and looked at what they served in the cafe. And it is abysmal at best. He also, one of my favorite parts of the podcast is he breaks down the amount of food you would need to eat from food to get the amount of omega-6 fatty acid, the inflammatory omega-6 fatty acid you do in each various plant-based oil. So for a certain serving of corn oil, two tablespoons or something like that, you would need to eat 60 to 70 ears of corn in a single sitting. 60 to 70 ears of corn in a single sitting is impossible. No one's going to

do that. I don't even think man versus food is going to do that. And I brought that up in the podcast. He even talked about getting to meet that guy. So anywho, just a fucking mind-blowing, awesome podcast. I love you, Paul. Paul wants to hook up the listeners here. For anybody that's interested in getting organ meat from incredibly good regenerative farms, heartandsoil.co, code KKP for 10% off. We'll link to that in the show notes. heartandsoil.co, code KKP for 10% off. And they've got amazing stuff. I've been taking their brain formula, which is just incredible. It really feel like a calming nootropic effect that is not really like anything that I've had in the past. So it's really cool. They've got organ meat complexes, all sorts of

good stuff that really makes it affordable, but also easy to get because you can't get brain from the supermarket. You probably can't get brain at the farmer's market or unless you're going to eat it from a hunt in which you're uncertain, you haven't checked it out, may or may not be the best brain for you. So there's lots of things that you can get from him that you can't get anywhere else. And I just, I love the carnivore doc. I'm going to have him back on as often as I can. He's always on the cutting edge of the new research

and really diving deep into what works and what doesn't work. And what are the big problems that stand in the way of health? And to large part, I mean, I had had a big clue as to what carbohydrates and increased blood sugar did. I did not have anywhere near the same clue before this podcast of what CETOLs were doing

to people and just how bad this inflammatory omega-6s can be in terms of metabolic health and all the rest. So thank you, Paul. There's many ways you can support this podcast. Send it to a friend. Send it to anybody who gives a shit about health and wellness, anybody who cares about eating clean or getting the best, getting pain to go away, inflammation, any of these topics that we cover in this podcast.

If you know somebody who's constantly eating out, odds are they're getting a ton of seed oils. Paul went to tons of restaurants in downtown Austin, some of the best restaurants. He found one that cooked with butter. All the rest, which is Perla's. I know people are going to ask, which one was it? Which one was it? It was Perla's.

Perla's is a really good seafood restaurant. They cook with butter and something else that wasn't quite as good, but butter was one of the ingredients. Scallops cooked in butter, can't go wrong. Wild caught. A lot of other places cooking shit seed oils. Even the better restaurants that have really good meat and high-end meat, that's just not the case.

They're still cooking with crap oil, which means you're going to get inflammation from it. So send it to a friend. Send it to somebody that you know is interested in the topic. Leave us a five-star rating. Organifi is still giving out through the end of this month. It's damn near December now. So we'll have one more winner here in November

and one more winner in December. You're going to get my favorite Organifi product. And it's awesome. You get it for free. All you had to do is leave a five-star rating with one or two ways the show has helped you out in life and leave your at handle, whatever your at, Kingsboo,

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We won't name names, but a number of things from very prominent MDs regarding cholesterol that I immediately scoffed at and went on to actually bring your name into the equation on some of the evidence that goes counterintuitive to that line of thinking, which would be more in the traditional sense of how Western medicine views cholesterol and things of that nature. And anywho, right when you hit me up, I was like, fuck yeah, let's hang. But can we podcast too? That way we can really deep dive this stuff and answer a lot of questions because if there's a couple of people reaching out to me about it, there's a lot of people wondering about it. Yeah, I know what you're talking about. Yep. Yeah. So the mainstream Western medical perspective with regard to cholesterol is becoming increasingly intense, maybe is the word. I think that there is increasing focus on the ApoB-containing lipoproteins, which are primarily LDL and VLDL. So you have low-density lipoprotein and very low-

density lipoprotein, and those are ApoB-containing lipoproteins. ApoB100 is the main lipoprotein we're talking about here. And the thing to consider here is context. So probably in this conversation, we will talk about insulin resistance and we will talk about saturated fat and we will talk about lipids in a contextual way. And Western medicine is not good at context. And what I mean by that is Western medicine is not good about thinking of the perhaps 7% to 8% of us in the population that read nutrition labels, that know what saturated fat, monounsaturated fat, polyunsaturated fats are, that understand seed oils and linoleic acid, that exercise, that do not have visceral fat,

that are not obese, that have muscles and a reasonable amount of body fat, that probably get our blood work every six months to a year and know metrics like fasting insulin or HSCRP or inflammatory levels or work with physicians who understand those metrics. That is a level of awareness of the full body perspective or a more holistic perspective on the body's health than just this myopic or increasingly myopic focus on LDL and more specifically these ApoB containing lipoproteins. But the mainstream Western medical perspective is that more ApoB is bad. And that may be true for the admittedly 87 to 90% of the population that has at least one risk factor for metabolic dysfunction. So metabolic syndrome, these are low HDL, high triglycerides, increased waist circumference,

high blood pressure, impaired fasting glucose. Estimates are that 89%, give or take, of the American US population has one of those, which means they are probably pre-diabetic, aka basically insulin resistant, somewhere along the spectrum of insulin resistance. And so for those people, the way I talk about it is they're basically swimming in dirty water. And we have this dirty pond or this pond of people who are at baseline metabolically somewhat unwell. It's a continuum, right? The far end of the continuum is what we might call brittle diabetes or severe diabetes. They need to be on insulin. They need to be on metformin. They're on meds. They have horrible, really, really bad insulin resistance. They probably have lots of visceral fat in the

peritoneum. They have obesity overall. They have potentially complications of diabetes, including kidney issues. They might be on dialysis. They might've lost a limb or a toe or a foot to diabetes. That's the far end of the spectrum. But the other end of the spectrum are people who have none of those things, who may believe they're healthy, but have some impaired insulin sensitivity. And they would know that if they checked their visceral adipose tissue with a DEXA scan or a type of MRI that looks at the adipose tissue in the belly beneath the peritoneum. And they would know that if they just got a fasting insulin, right? But along that continuum are a lot of people, but

they all have some degree of insulin resistance. They all have some of this process of insulin resistance going on. And in those people, it's quite possible that more ApoB-containing lipoproteins means more incorporation of those ApoB-containing lipoproteins into the arterial wall. But in those of us that have low fasting insulin, and I would say anything below five micro IU per ml is what you want, so fasting insulin of less than five. If you have a low fasting insulin, if you have a six-pack, or even if you don't have a six-pack, but you know you don't have a lot of visceral fat, I don't think the same process of pulling that LDL into that endothelium,

into that subintimal layer of the arterial wall is happening. And in that population of people, more ApoB does not necessarily mean more atherosclerosis because what most people don't know, and I think a lot of cardiologists don't even understand this, the inside of our blood vessels, they're a tube, but they're a tube that essentially have these fronds, these

seagrass things protruding from the inside. This is called the glycocalyx. So the glycocalyx is negatively charged and LDL particles, these ApoB containing lipoproteins are also negatively charged. So in order for LDL to get into your arterial wall from the circulation, which is what happens when you have atherosclerosis. It has to move through, a negatively charged particle has to move through a negatively charged seagrass forest into an arterial wall that has very tight junctions. This is an active process. When LDL moves into the arterial wall, the body wants it there. I think that there is a perspective, and I think this perspective is wrong within Western

medicine, that it's a gradient, that the more LDL you have, the more LDL gets pushed into your arterial wall in a gradient. That doesn't make any sense to me for a variety of reasons. And I don't think the literature supports that perspective. LDL is being actively pulled into the arterial wall, probably in a process of repair that happens in all of us. And we can talk about that because it's relevant to the same conversation. But in those of us who are insulin sensitive, who are healthy, who are probably listening to this podcast, who are consuming this content, more LDL doesn't necessarily mean more LDL going into the arterial wall. It may just mean more LDL moving through the circulation, delivering precursors of cell membranes, of hormones, and other important things in the human body. And so you might see in someone like me or you who eats a relatively larger amount of saturated fat because we're eating animal foods

and a relatively smaller amount of polyunsaturated fats because we're avoiding seed oils, we're going to talk more about that in this podcast, that the LDL is higher than quote normal. My LDL most recently was 165 milligrams per deciliter. And I think my particle count was 1900 nanomole per liter, which is higher than most people want to see it. But what's also important to understand, and that's where Western medicine stops. If these respected physicians in the medical establishment saw my numbers, they would key in on the LDL in a myopic way and say, that LDL is too high. Your ApoB is too high. You need to be on a statin or you need to lower that LDL. And I say, but wait, you haven't looked at the whole picture. Let me unfold the

pamphlet for you and show you that I also have triglycerides of 65 and an HDL of 65 or 70. So I have high HDL and low triglycerides. I have a fasting insulin of three micro IU per ML. I have no visceral fat. You can see my six pack abs. I have an HSCRP, which is an indicator of inflammation in a general sense of less than 0.5. So the context of my physiology, which is the test tube that I use and sort of talk about in my podcast says, I'm not inflamed. I'm not insulin resistant. Why do we think that that LDL is going into the arterial wall? But I think Western medicine is making a reasonable but myopic mistake. And that is to assume that just because it happens in most people that you see in the studies,

most people are diseased. It doesn't mean it happens in everyone. And it's okay to say that to the majority of people. If you have someone come into your office as a physician and they are obese and they are diabetic and they have a high LDL, you might say, yeah, that high LDL is contributing to atherosclerosis. But what comes next is what's being missed. And what comes next is what is, I would say, forsaken and ignored when we just assume that everyone is having this process. And that is the fact that that condition is reversible for that person, right? If LDL equals atherosclerosis, then there's no hope. Then we should all be on a statin as some physicians want to talk about, want to advocate for. But if this condition of LDL moving into the arterial

wall is dependent on the context, and that context is how metabolically healthy you are, then you can tell that diabetic, hey, this is fixable. You need to eat better and I'll tell you what to eat, right? You need to get out in the sun. You need to move. You need to get in the nature. You need to ground. You need to exercise. You need to lift some heavy things and then you're going to get way better. But the other perspective is you're kind of screwed, man. You might as well take this genetic lottery. You're fucked. This is the natural expression of what your body was designed to do. You designed to die quickly. Yeah. Yeah. And so it's a completely different perspective. And so the counter arguments, what I'm saying would be, well, if 87% of the population is metabolically unwell, this is important. And I would say, absolutely.

But the 13 or 12% that are not metabolically unwell, that are metabolically healthy, that's the answer. How do you get the 87 over to the 12? That's what we need to be talking about. But all of these conversations ignore that. They just want to talk about how to lower ApoB with statins, with drugs that are PCSK9 inhibitors, with other types of drugs. And the conversation is now becoming everyone, and I'm paraphrasing what respected physicians are saying now, everyone should have an LDL or ApoB

of 30 to 50 milligrams per deciliter. And the next sentence out of these physicians' mouths is, that is unachievable with diet. Meaning that you're completely going against all of natural history. Never in our history as humans would an adult human, regardless of their diet, have had an LDL of 30 to 50 milligrams per deciliter. But these really intelligent and I believe well-intentioned physicians, I think are very

mistaken by saying we should discard hundreds of thousands of years of homo sapien evolution and essentially put everyone on a statin or a PCSK9 inhibitor because that's the only way you're going to achieve an ApoB of 30 to 50 milligrams per deciliter or an LDL of 30 to 50 milligrams per deciliter. And the reason they want to do this is because they'll say, well, when you're born, that's your level of LDL is 30 to 50 milligrams per deciliter when you're born, that's your level of LDL, is 30 to 50 milligrams per deciliter when you're born. And we know that at some level in your life, the LDL goes up as you age,

presumably because your body needs to move LDL around to make hormones or to go through puberty or to grow as a human. We don't fully understand the human organism, but there's a lot of assumptions being made here. It might look a little different, you know, with the newborn whose balls haven't dropped yet, whose balls may never drop, you know?

Like if you're pre-puberty, like you can't compare that to an adult. And you were just born, right? And so if LDL rises as you become a child, like maybe, just maybe ApoB particles are important for the growth of the human brain. And we know this to be true. We know that cholesterol is so critical for the human brain

that it's made in the brain, right? And maybe LDL is rising because you need hormones and you need building blocks for cells as we age. And maybe you don't want to have infantile levels of cholesterol your whole life, or maybe there's a problem that will accumulate with that that we don't even understand. So the irony for me is that when people look at my work, I'll say to people, there's a lot of medical evidence that if you are insulin sensitive and you can assay that with a low fasting insulin, elevated, or I would say robust levels of HDL, low triglycerides, and good blood pressure, low fasting insulin,

that in that situation, elevated LDL, quote unquote elevated LDL, is not a risk factor for cardiovascular disease. There's literature to show that. And there's also literature to show that if you correct the ApoB or LDL concentration for the concentration of LDL that is oxidized for something called LP little a, then LDL itself fails to be a predictor of cardiovascular disease. So there's a whole lot more to the story than we're being told. And to just assume that more ApoB equals more atherosclerosis loses the most important part of this equation, which is how do you fix it? How do you avoid atherosclerosis?

The assumption of all this is everyone is getting atherosclerosis that is going to be clinically relevant. And so this is the last thing I'll say. I know I'm rambling, but hopefully the story is good. The last piece of this narrative that I'm seeing in the mainstream is everyone gets atherosclerosis and therefore everyone should be on these drugs to lower cholesterol. Now, there's a couple of problems with this that I have philosophically. They're basing that everyone gets atherosclerosis on autopsies from kids in Vietnam that were 18 years old, right? They're obviously eating MREs

and garbage food at 18 years old, right? And- High stress environment. Exactly, high stress environment. But let's just assume that everyone has some degree of LDL going into the arterial wall, which may be true because we do see atherosclerosis in multiple animals. I don't think that that means that that process is so damaging that you need to correct it, right? When you skin your knee or your son skins his knee or your daughter, you know, there's a scab, right? All of our arteries are essentially knees and elbows that are facing this interior world of 120 millimeters of mercury in the arteries, which is a lot of pressure when your heart beats, they're going to skin their knee, right? You're going to have denuding of the endothelium at bifurcations in the arteries.

You're going to get arterial damage. You're going to drive behind a diesel car. You're going to walk by someone and inhale secondhand cigarette smoke. You're maybe going to smoke a cigarette yourself at some point in your life. I smoked a cigarette when I was a kid, right? You're going to be exposed to toxins that we know will damage the endothelium. The movement of LDL into the arterial wall is probably how your body repairs that. So I think we're all going to have a fatty streak,

but the body then resolves it, right? We can have, just because you can do an autopsy on someone and show an early atherosclerotic lesion, a fatty streak, doesn't mean that that's going to develop into clinically relevant atherosclerosis and stenosis and an unstable plaque, which is kind of like a big zit inside your artery that can occlude the artery to the point that you have narrowing of the artery. It doesn't mean it's going to turn into that. Not every scab that you get turns into an abscess on your knee. You've done jujitsu. You know that sometimes when you get staff, you can

get a pretty bad boil on your leg, right? Especially if you're not eating well or not sleeping well. But sometimes you get a cut on your leg and it heals just fine. So I think that sometimes we get cuts on our arms, especially diabetics, and they get massively infected and they get very, very bad. That's the equivalent of a plaque in a human artery. That's a bad plaque that can rupture and cause a clot, cause a heart attack. But most of the time when we're healthy, those little cuts we get, they heal. And so that's the parallel that I would draw. And I think that's where this perspective is missing the forest for the trees. Just because people are getting LDL moving into the arterial wall, probably in a process

of repair, doesn't mean that's going to become an infected quote-unquote Problematic plaque in the human artery and it doesn't mean that everyone needs to have an ldl of 30 to 50 with unknown consequences Which could be catastrophic for us It means that we need to understand Why ldl moves in there and why in some people that process goes awry and I think we pretty much know There's a process of healing when you you get that scab, your body heals it. Just like when you get that boil and sometimes it turns into a big angry thing, sometimes it goes bad, sometimes it goes good. What's wrong? The difference is the context. The difference is how healthy the individual is. And we know that if you're insulin sensitive,

your risk of these things is essentially so much infinitesimal. It's so much smaller. But if you're diabetic or you're metabolically unwell, your risk is massively increased because your wound healing is bad. So you're going to have an immune system that's disordered. And what happens is this LDL particle moves out of the blood vessel into the vessel wall, and it gets engulfed by a macrophage, an immune cell. So why does the macrophage engulf it? Because it's oxidized. So LDL goes from native LDL to oxidized LDL at some point in that process, and macrophage comes along it? Because it's oxidized. So LDL goes from native LDL to oxidized LDL at some point in that process and macrophage comes along and eats it. And that's where the process

starts. So why does macrophage eat it? Because it's oxidized. How does it get oxidized? That's the next chapter of the equation. We'll talk about that too. Okay. Fuck yeah. Yeah. It's bringing up a couple of things for me. One, I do think it's super important as an N equals one to tell the story of your years in carnivore and then getting your blood work done. And then that pitched, that started a little online back and forth between you and a prominent MD on the fact that I think your LDL was above 500.

If I remember this correctly. At one time it was, yeah. At one time it was above 500, right? And then with that, you went and had a heart scan done and they said it was effectively, it looked like a baby's. That's how healthy your heart and interior walls look from the MRI. I'll clarify that. So I had no calcium. So I had a coronary artery calcium score. And so when plaque gets advanced, it gets calcified. Doesn't mean I had no plaque because you can you can see soft plaque on something called a ct coronary angiogram And I want to have one of those but I haven't had that but I had no advanced

Calcified bad plaque. I had a calcium score of zero, right and most physicians Would look at my ldl of 500 and say that guy's 43 years old at the time of that scan I had a history of early heart disease in my dad. We call that a primary relative in Western medicine, which is a huge risk factor. So I'm 43, which is young, but I have an LDL, which is off the charts. And I have a dad who had an angiogram known coronary disease at the age of 42. So I should have some coronary disease. So it's interesting and it's compelling. What I really need to do is get a CT coronary angiogram. But what may happen in that is I may

have some soft plaque because mostly every human on the planet does, because I might be repairing the arteries. It's like, at what point does the test become too sensitive? You know what I mean? Yeah. So I had a cardiologist, a friend that I was talking to recently about this stuff. Cause I want to get his perspective. And he was telling me that, um, and he, he lives in this world. He had one of these scans done and he had soft plaque and he's like, well, you know, how do I have soft plaque? And he was saying, he called the medical director of the company and they're like, you know, it's actually a very, very sensitive test. And you do see that people will have soft plaque.

So what I think needs to be the level playing field is everyone who wants to have the conversation. And this is something I would love to see in the space is more reasonable, respectful discussion. But when people come to discussion with different views, I think everyone should have these tests and show them. You know, this is your poker hand. Like, show me your labs. Like, okay, I'm going to show you my coronary artery calcium score. I'm going to show you my CT coronary angiogram, which I want to get.

But anyone who wants to debate this, you know, or have a discussion needs to show me theirs too. So we understand what everybody's working with because we are all an N of one. And that's interesting. But like, if you believe that your low cholesterol, your low LDL is so valuable, show me that yours Is way better than mine and if mine isn't bad in the first place

We have nothing to talk about because this but I don't actually know why My ldl went so high at that one point in my life. I was transitioning from a zero carb carnivore diet of just meat And organs and fat for a year and a half, two years to a carbohydrate inclusive diet. And I went to honey and then fruit. I never included grains. We can tell that story. And that's all I eat now is basically organs, meat, fruit, honey, raw dairy.

So I included the carbohydrates back in my diet because I found that many people have found that long-term ketogenic diets result in some unpleasant side effects physiologically. There is benefit to a post prandial insulin spike from carbohydrates. That is how you hold onto electrolytes at the level of the kidney, sodium, potassium, magnesium. I think that's one thing we'd agree with Biolane on, just one. Yeah, maybe.

Maybe the only one. Yeah, maybe. I don't even know that he says that. He's been such a huge proponent of carbohydrates and that sugar is not an issue for most people. And I was like, I think if 87% of the population, if we're talking about that as the 87%, then yeah, carbohydrates are a fucking issue. They're an undeniable issue because of metabolic function, the lack of movement, all those things factored in, of course. And I'm not trying to strawman the argument. But anybody who's done heavy weight training understands the benefit of the insulin spike post-workout. You know, that's long been understood.

I knew that shit at 13 years old. That's why they put 75 grams of dextrose in with your creatine powder. Like, it's just like, there you go. Jack it up. Have your carrier come in. Insulin is one of the most anabolic hormones if used appropriately. And those are the reasons behind it and recovery and other things. But yeah, to my point, to your point,

at what point is that no longer medicine? At what point are we stacking the cards too much? And you can see if your body is storing more than it's consuming and it's storing at a rate where you continue to store and continue to store and continue to store, you're not metabolically healthy anymore. And that's where we're going to run into issues like this.

And I think it has to do with, I think the idea of baseline metabolic health has to do with the fats that you eat. I want to talk about seed oils in this podcast. And I also think to your point, to piggyback on what you were saying, not all sugar is created equally. And this is an interesting thing. This kind of felt like voodoo when I first looked at it, but there's interesting, very significant amounts of medical literature that show, and why should this be confusing or surprising to us from an evolutionary ancestral perspective, that for some reason, I don't think anybody really understands this, processed sugar is not the same as honey that's raw or fruit in the human body. I mean, there's a really interesting study by Rick Johnson, who's done a lot of work

with fructose. And so Rick took two groups of people who were going to lose weight, and both groups had low amounts of calories. They were both hypocaloric. But one group cut out fructose completely, right? No fructose, no fruit. And one group had 400 to 500 calories of fruit per day, but cut out all processed fructose in their diet. And both groups lost weight and both groups saw improvements in metabolic markers and liver fat. So there are multiple points that I want to make about the study. The inclusion of fruit, but the exclusion of all processed fructose, high fructose corn syrup,

was just as beneficial metabolically as the exclusion of all fructose for these people. And the group that had fruit, but no processed fructose actually lost more weight than the group that cut out fructose completely and ate no fruit. That's interesting. So it's the study, I think, in this hypocaloric setting, right? Fruit wasn't damaging for people in any way, shape, or form. It actually was equivalent or better to have some fructose in the form of fruit. There are studies with honey that show that when you give people raw honey, but not pasteurized honey, you get an increase in nitric oxide precursors in the human body. Now, nitric oxide is critical. It's this simple molecule, NO,

that's used and made in the endothelial cells to cause vasodilatation. If you want healthy endothelium inside your blood vessels, that's how you get that kind of fortified wall that doesn't really pull in LDL. You need to have robust amounts of nitric oxide being made in the endothelium. And that's how you know you have healthy endothelium. You can look at that vasodilatory response. Well, honey increases the vasodilatory response in humans. It increases nitric oxide. That's good for our penises, our blood vessels, everywhere else that has a blood vessel, your heart, your lung, everything, your brain. So, okay, that's kind of cool. That's really beneficial for honey. I mean, raw honey has been used to treat cavities.

It's been used to treat oral mucositis, infection in the mouth. Raw honey has been used to treat it. So why are we not surprised, right? This is a totally ancestral food. When I was in Tanzania with the Hadza, they love this stuff. And you pull it out of the tree, it's about as raw as it gets. Didn't they have a bird that shows them where, is that the same group? Yeah, the honey guide. The group of Hadza that I was with didn't use the honey guide when I was there, but I wanted to see them do it. But I've heard other people ask them, and the lore is that the way this works, people don't know, is that the bird comes and shows the humans where the honey is. It chirps and it says, there's a hive in this tree.

And the Hadza, the Bushmen, I think at the Hadza, maybe the Kung of Botswana also do this too. And then they give some to the bird. And there's this lore within the community that if you don't give some to the bird, that the bird might lead you to a tree with a snake in it or something in the future. But yeah, there's this interesting connection

with these birds. But they didn't even need the bird when I was in Tanzania. They just walked there's this interesting connection with these birds, but they didn't even need the bird when I was in Tanzania. They just walked around and they could see these, there were two types of bees in Tanzania. One was a stingless bee and there are these little flutes, these little straws that they make. They have this incredible hidden hives inside the tree. And the only thing you see is this little straw, like a wax straw that comes out that they make. And these little tiny bees that don't sting go in and out. And they see that little, you see that little straw and then they take out the ax.

And I mean, they displace the bees from there because this is human interactions with the environment. But yeah, there's video on my social media of me chopping into a tree. Maybe we'll put some of that in the podcast here. There's a video of me chopping into the tree with the Hadza. And this was some of the best honey I've ever had in my life and it's so honey is is beneficial and the point here that i'm making is just not all sugar's created equally and it doesn't like there's there's the flip side is that there's pretty good evidence that if you get rid of processed sugar From the diet of kids they get more metabolically healthy in an isocaloric setting So robert lustig has done this work where they took obese teens who are metabolically unwell. So we know that even today, teenagers have insulin resistance for a variety of reasons. Perhaps processed sugar is one of

those reasons. But if you get rid of that processed sugar from those teens' lives and you change nothing else and they eat the same amount of calories, they get metabolically healthy. So people who are against fructose would say, look at that, fructose is bad for humans. But I think we need to consider both sides and realize, okay, but you can also give humans fruit and they're not going to have a problem with that. So not all sugar is created equally. And I don't think that it's fruit and honey that cause diabetes for humans. Processed sugar, I think most people would agree, this has no place in the human diet. There's a really interesting study and then I'll shut up and stop rambling.

It's always good to talk. I just get excited about talking about things with you. I fucking love how pumped you are. Fucking run, run, run, run, run. Run, run, run. Let's go. There's a great study that Matt, that Matt, no, I think it's,

what's his first name? Is it Matt Hall? I don't think it's his first name. Anyway, they took two groups of people, you'll love this one, and they put them in a metabolic ward. So they control everything these people eat. And I think it was maybe 20 people in each group. And one group gets entirely unprocessed food. So they had like salmon and chicken and beef and vegetables and fruit,

no processing. The other group gets processed food, right? So cookies, cakes, whatever, probably hamburgers with buns and sauce. And they give both groups of people the same amount of calories on the tray to start. And they try to match the presented food for fiber, salt, sugar, caloric density. So the presented food to these people is almost exactly the same, except for one thing, which I'll talk about in a moment, because they couldn't control for this. But what happened was that this is an ad lib study, which is the perfect recreation of what happens in the natural world. Because people could say, I'm still hungry, I want more, or I'm good.

What happened was that the people who had the unprocessed food ate about 500 calories less per day and lost two pounds over two weeks. The people who had the processed food ate 500 more calories per day and gained two pounds over two weeks. The people who had the processed food ate 500 more calories per day and gained two pounds over two weeks. So why are these people hungrier? So we know at the first level, we know that processed food is not as satiating as regular food. Calorie for calorie, gram for gram of macronutrients, carbohydrates, protein, fat are matched, sugar's matched, salt is matched, fiber is matched. It's not as satiating. It makes you hungry. And then- Because it's been engineered to do so.

It's been engineered to do so, but how did they do that, right? But I think at a high level, you can look at that processed food, and this is something that we've termed the fat triad, right? It's seed oils, it's processed sugar, and it's processed grains. Almost everyone can agree that those are three common elements of processed food. So I think if most people are listening to this and everything we said about LDL went over their head and everything we're going to say about seed oils is too technical, if you simply eliminate those three things from your diet, seed oils, processed sugars, and processed milled grains and flours, you're essentially not eating any processed foods

and your health will improve. End of story. It's just when the rubber meets the road, people realize how hard it is to do that because that's in everything. But those three elements are so key. And so I have a suspicion that that processed sugar, because we know it's in that processed food,

is somehow obesogenic. But I definitely believe that the seed oils are the main driver of that. And there's a really interesting story about seed oils and satiety that we can talk about if you want. Absolutely. One comment I want to make before we jump into seed oils is the three times where I've done carnivore and I've done three 15 to 17 day stints where I eventually stop and I cycle back usually with oxalates and things that prevent whatever rash I have from continuing. It gives me so much freedom over what I eat because I am so full so quickly. If I eat just grass-finished hot dogs, or if I eat just hamburger patties, or if I eat just a scramble with eggs

and beef and salt, I'm fucking good. It's the only time where I generally will have leftovers because I can say like I've reached my limit. The signal is so clear. The gut brain connection signal is so clear that I can say I'm good. I don't want to eat anymore. I'm not going to feel any better. The more I put in my body, I'm going to start to go in the opposite direction. So let me box up what I have left and I'll be good. And the in-between, there's no need to snack. There's no like, fuck man, I've got low blood sugar. I got something. None of that exists there. Right. And it's something I love is that, you know, it could take three to six weeks on a ketogenic diet to start to feel that way. But in carnivore, it's immediate. It is right away.

You're like, oh fuck dude, I'm not powerless against food. And, and, and against food. And that's something I actually started experimenting with is the exact diet you have where I toss in blueberries, blackberries, strawberries, and the different things that are low glycemic for me at the time where I was a little bit more metabolic dysfunction just from eating like an asshole because I could as a guy who was thin. I could be like, fuck it, I'm going to eat this fucking cheesecake. And then all of a sudden I run the CGM and I'm like, damn, that's a high score right there. I don't want to be pre-diabetic. And so like really getting clean on that. But just to your

point on the processed versus unprocessed, it is a literal and visceral understanding when you come to the point of the end of your meal and there's no argument there, right? Whereas any other things get added in there, condiments, flavorings, things like that, that can change how much I put in my body. We might've talked about this the last time I had you on, but man versus food. Guy's got to do 10 gallons of ice cream or some fucking, maybe it's five gallons of ice cream. And he orders the hottest, crispiest, crunchiest, saltiest French fries possible. He says, extra salt and fucking overcook them. I want them super crispy.

And they come out. Why? Because he's doing soft, cold, and sweet, and he needs to bridge the gap and hit the other taste buds to reawaken his ability to finish the meal. And through several orders of French fries that are really overcooked and salty,

he's able to finish the five gallons ice cream, right? He understood it, right? As a fat guy trying to fucking, you know, win over the food game. But what he proved is something that's very similar. A lot of times we have these food pairings and things like that, that literally make you hungrier. They leave you hungrier and they don't leave you feeling satisfied even when you've already reached your limit. You almost eat to the point of exploding your stomach. You almost eat to the point of pain in your stomach when you're eating these foods. And so French fries are probably the worst food for satiety for one reason alone. They are for a variety of reasons, probably because they hit the bliss point, but they also are very, very high in something called HNE, 4-HNE,

so 4-hydroxynonanol. And that sounds technical, but that's a breakdown product of linoleic acid. And there are studies. We can put a study up here in the podcast to show people. There are studies where they've looked at HNE in French fries, because what are French fries cooked in, Kyle?

They're cooked in corn, canola, or peanut oil, which is super high in linoleic acid. So we're kind of tiptoeing into the seed oil conversation already here. It's an 18 carbon omega-6 polyunsaturated fatty acid that evolutionarily humans would have only had a small amount of because it's only found in nuts and seeds. And we're only going to get nuts and seeds occasionally,

probably as survival foods, mostly in the fall before we're going to get into winter. So in Northern latitudes, the hypothesis that I've come up with, and I think other people have come up with, is that perhaps as humans, as we moved away from the equator, during the fall time,

we were eating more of these foods to fatten up a little bit. You get more linoleic acid, that can be an obesogenic food for humans. And we know that more of this linoleic acid, that can be an obesogenic food for humans. And we know that more of this linoleic acid, which is present in huge amounts in seed oils, equals more HNE in the human body and more of these endogenous cannabinoids, which is the real part in satiety. But we know that HNE can sabotage satiety and these endogenous cannabinoids, which I'll talk

about in a moment, can also sabotage satiety. So essentially what this guy is doing is a brilliant train wreck in terms of satiety. And I actually met this guy. You did? Yeah, he was in Costa Rica and he looked me up and I had dinner with him and he was like- That's fucking cool. He was like, man, I got to stop doing that.

It's killing me. And I was like, what the fuck are you doing? Why are you doing this to yourself? Super nice guy though, but I had dinner with him and I cooked him a steak, you know, and it was really interesting. So what's happening there is that French fries contain a ton of HNE.

And you eat more seed oils, you get more HNE. But let's pause that French fry conversation and go back to the satiety. It's kind of connected, but in the nutrition space, people will say calories in, calories out. Calories, it's like dogma. It's the fucking second law of- It fits your macro.

Yes. It's the second law of thermodynamics. You're a troglodyte. You're a flat earther, if you don't believe this. But I think what they're missing is that the quality of your calories in affects the calories out. And the quality of the calories in affects the calories in, right? And so you try putting yourself in the position where you are eating junk food and then preventing yourself from overeating the junk food. That is a doable but nearly Herculean task. You are wrestling with a demon that is 350, perhaps two to three million years old. Maybe more than that, right? It probably goes back to primate evolution. Like when you are hungry as a human, you eat. And that is how our ancestors survived, Australopithecines,

our primate ancestors, right? Chimps and bonobos, how Homo habilis, Homo erectus, and now Homo sapiens for the last 350,000 years survived. You obey what your satiety says. And yes, today in 2022, there are some people who are super disciplined and they can just eat two Twinkies a day, but they are miserable. And this is why most diets fail because most diets, things like Weight Watchers or any point system of diets fail to take into account the quality of the calories and the resulting satiety. And so when your satiety is better,

this is why most keto diets work or carnivore works or animal-based works. If you cut out the processed foods, you're just not as hungry and life is good. Because if you're hungry, you are suffering. That's akin to being cold or being overly hot or being, it's a pain in your psyche to be hungry. I call it calorie restricted prison.

You don't want to go there. And your body will break out of that, which is why so many diets fail. You can, this is why, how they do biggest loser, right? They overexercise and they undereat. And this is why you can say, all right, I can eat these 100 calorie snack packs of Oreos, which are the worst thing ever because a hundred-

It's a vegan food, what are you talking about? It's a vegan food, right? Celebrating a hundred years of making people unhealthy. But a snack pack of a hundred calories of goldfish is the worst thing ever. It's worthless to you because that 100 calories is only going to leave you healthier. You're going to have to eat extra calories because of the processed grains, the seed oils in the Oreos, the seed oils in the goldfish or whatever junk food you're eating. So you cannot restrict calories without improving your food quality and hope to lose weight long term. You will fail. You will fail. And that is what all these diets fail to appreciate is that, hey, I can just eat less

or I can just eat foods that are higher in fiber along with junk foods and I can be more full and my stomach feels like it's gonna explode and I'm physically uncomfortable. I think this is why most people eat salads, Kyle. Or that without, at the risk of being sexist, I'll say, I think this is why a lot of women, if I try and understand where they're coming from, have been told to eat salads, Kyle, or that without, at the risk of being sexist, I'll say, I think this is why a lot of women, if I try and understand where they're coming from, have been told to eat salads. If you fill your stomach with something with a lot of fiber, you will not want to eat. You will

have not a feeling of satiety in your brain. You will have a feeling of uncomfortableness in your stomach and you will stop eating. But the thing that these women are missing or these men who are trying to eat salads to lose weight, I'll be, you know, I'll be, you know- Across the board. Across the board. I'll be very equivalent to everyone. We haven't named all the in-betweens, but that's a different conversation.

That's a different conversation, man. You know, that you leave yourself nutrient depleted. And if you're putting seed oil dressing on the salad, which you just might be doing because you don't know what's in your Annie's dressing, canola oil, right? You're going to, again, leave that salad hungrier and you're just, you're back in calorie restricted prison.

So, but this little aside, the takeaway for people is improve the quality of your foods and you don't even have to think about calories. You don't have to count calories because your body will do it for you. That's 350,000 years of evolution saying, if you feed me the foods that I've always wanted, that being meat and organs, primarily with some non-processed carbohydrates like fruit or honey, maybe some raw dairy, you're going to lose weight without even trying. And that's a much better situation than shackling yourself to calorie restricted prison and eating a 350 calorie lasagna from Weight Watchers, which is full of, you know, which is full of seed oils and processed grains. And so that, I think that's a really, really

important thing for people to understand because so many people want to lose weight and they do it the wrong way, right? They do it with these snack packs. They do it with cutting calories without changing the quality of their food and they fail. And then they feel like a failure and they get into these really hard psychological loops. So I'll pause there and then let's talk about seed oils and the endogenous cannabinoids. Yeah, I've got nothing to add to that. That's phenomenal. And yeah, I'm retroactively, as you're talking, I'm absorbing everything, but also retroactively looking through all of the times where I've started to make those decisions, you know,

from first reading How to Eat, move and be healthy in 2007 and actually clearing out shit where I was mostly, you know, fruit and meat based, you know, uh, paleo. And then at different points where I went into ketosis and carnivore and then added back in fruit plus meat. And in all those situations, it's a gift. It's a gift to remember like, oh, it can be this easy. It can be this easy where I'm just like, damn, I feel good. And that's enough. And so many people have lost that. And it's also, it tastes fucking great too. It's not like I'm eating food that I don't like. Like if I have some raw cheese on top of a grass finished regenerative burger, like that doesn't need anything else. A little salt, like that's all it needed to begin with. It's right there. It's perfect the way that it is, right?

No Oreo is better than that when you understand what it's doing. It's right there. It's perfect the way that it is, right? No Oreo is better than that when you understand what it's doing, you know, like it's crazy. And so, you know, I'm in Austin right now and I come to Austin with my team every once in a while. I come to the States with my team every once in a while to get content. And one of the things we do is we would go to grocery stores or we go to hospitals and we're going to go to UT, the cafeteria at UT and colleges. And the reason we do that is to make content showing people how pervasive seed oils are.

I'm going to get to the endogenous cannabinoids in a moment. But, you know, we go to Whole Foods and we look at the Whole Foods salad bar or you look at the Whole Foods hot bar. Probably 60 to 70% of what's in the Whole Foods hot bar has canola oil in it, a seed oil, right? So let's just clarify what we mean by seed oils corn canola safflower sunflower soybean um We saw oatly in

Uh whole foods and they're calling canola low erucic acid rapeseed oil now. That's exactly what it is It's low erucic acid rapeseed oil, but I think maybe Maybe people are starting to get hip and they don't want canola oil. I don't know why Oatly is labeling it low erucic acid rapeseed oil. I want to talk about canola oil too. So we'll come to that one, guys. That's a really interesting oil specifically that we need to talk about because of the way it's made and that erucic acid and problems with that. But it's in a lot of things. So that's why the conversation is so important because this is pervasive. So one of the coolest parts of this trip was that we went to Dell Children's Hospital and we went to the cafeteria there. Recently, I was in Arizona and I went to the University

of Arizona where I went to medical school and went to the hospital cafeteria there. That's right. I forgot you're a wildcat. Yeah. And I went to- My fork's up. If anybody's watching right now, I'll continue. ASU doesn't produce doctors, so he got us beaten there. It's true, it's true. But, and then we went to the Mayo Clinic in Scottsdale. We went to both of those cafeterias.

What are both of those cafeterias cooking? Canola oil, Pam. It's everywhere. Like hospital cafeterias. Western medicine believes in canola oil. They promote this. The American Heart Association promotes seed oils. Absolutely. They promote this the american heart association promotes seed oils. Absolutely the 2020 to 2025 the 2020 to 2025

guidelines from the united states you know fda promote seed oils they promote it and so of course you're going to find it in hospital cafeterias, but We go to dell children's and i'm thinking this is a children's hospital. They're treating kids with cancer diabetes and I'm thinking this is a children's hospital. They're treating kids with cancer, diabetes, neurodegenerative diseases. Like that's the most heart-wrenching stuff you've got, right?

Kids suffering. It's the same. They have seed oils everywhere. There's no appreciation for this. They still are bought into the narrative. We went to the hot bar where they'll saute you some greens or some meat and chicken. They're using canola oil in the hot bar.

They'll saute it right there for you. And I said, I'm allergic to that. Do you guys have anything else? Do you have butter? And one guy goes, yeah, we have butter. And the sous chef right next to him goes, yeah, but the butter has vegetable oil in it. The butter's not butter.

The butter's not butter. I can't believe it's not butter. It's not actually butter. It's not actually butter. You go over to the chicken fingers and French fries. And I asked the really nice guy on the counter, hey, what oil is that cooked in? I've got some sensitivities.

He pulls out the box, cotton seed, which is even worse, canola, there's THBQ, which is a preservative and an anti-foaming agent. Like that's what you're getting chicken fingers cooked in. And we'll talk about why all those are horrible. You go to the other line where you can get grilled chicken and it's glistening. I know there's oil on it.

And I say, what's the chicken cooked in? They've also got salmon there, right? Salmon is healthy, right? Salmon and chicken. What are those cooked in? And the lady behind the counter, super nice lady. I don't know. I have to go ask the chef.

The chef comes out, salad oil. What's salad oil, man? It's Pam, it's canola oil. So everything in the kitchen, the salad dressing, the chicken, the salmon, the sauteed noodles, the sauteed vegetables, the chicken fingers, the French fries, it's all cooked in seed oils. And they also serve Snickers bars and Reese's Pieces. Yeah, they got all the shit there. Yeah, yeah. I mean, you could walk through and just eat some leaves, you know, and maybe get an apple and a banana

and that'd be okay, but you can't get any meat. You can't get anything cooked hot in that whole kitchen. You're going to get seed oils. You're going to get, you know, you could do it, but you'd basically just, you'd be better off fasting. So the point of that is just to say that seed oils are pervasive. And so circling back to the satiety thing,

this is super interesting. The problem with seed is just to say that seed oils are pervasive. And so circling back to the satiety thing, this is super interesting. The problem with seed oils appears to be this evolutionarily inconsistent concentration of linoleic acid. So we did a reel on this on Instagram that I was really proud of. In order to get the amount of seed oil from corn that the average American gets per day,

five to seven tablespoons, you would have to eat between 60 and 70 ears of corn per day. Damn, wow. You'd have to eat a pound and a half of hulled sunflower seeds, two and a half pounds of in the husks, right? So, you know, the baseball players will spit the sunflower seeds.

Like this is a mountain of sunflower seeds. No one could ever get through that. Two and a half pounds of sunflower seeds if you're like husking them or whatever, you know, spitting them out every day. Every, you know, you're spitting the husk out. Two and a half pounds of sunflower seeds to get five to seven tablespoons of sunflower seed oil.

Two pounds of soybeans to get five to seven tablespoons of soybean oil. Two pounds of soybeans, two pounds. And canola oil is made from a rapeseed. That's not even a human food. And in order to make canola oil, canola stands for Canadian oil, low acid. So it's an acronym. It wasn't even a thing. They had to graft and genetically select rapeseeds that were low erucic acid. Erucic acid is, I believe it's a monounsaturated fatty acid that's been associated with myocardial liposis. So heart lesions with this fatty acid found in this seed of a plant that humans should not be eating, has never been eaten

by humans as a food, but they made it into a food previously, like all the seed oils, like cotton seed oil, especially that they're making the chicken fingers and the fries out of Adele children's machine lubricants prior to 1910, right? These are not foods for the humans. So there's no equivalent in rape seeds because humans don't eat rape seeds. We don't eat cotton seeds. I have no idea how many cotton seeds, nobody eats cotton, right? You're not going to eat cotton. People didn't eat soy for the longest time. It was only brought into fields to help nitrogenate the next year's crop.

That was it. Yeah. So there's a massive amount. So evolutionarily inconsistent amounts of linoleic acid that easily get concentrated in these oils. So we suddenly have this huge influx of linoleic acid into our diets. And it accumulates in every cell in our body

and especially in our fat tissue. Because as humans, we can't get rid of polyunsaturated fatty acids easily. diets. And it accumulates in every cell in our body and especially in our fat tissue. Because as humans, we can't get rid of polyunsaturated fatty acids easily. One of your questions before the podcast was how do we get rid of this? And we'll talk about it before we wrap this one up for sure. Because some people listening, I know maybe just hearing about this idea of seed oils and maybe they want to change this, but I want them to understand that if you've been eating seed oils for 30 or 40 years, you are basically full of seed oils and you're like a sponge and you need to figure out how does your body get rid of them?

Your body will recycle them over time, but you have to stop eating them. But our body stores these oils. You can look at an adipose tissue, so a fatty acid, a fatty tissue depot, like the butt or the glute or behind the tricep, and you can see how much linoleic acid is in the fat. And that's a pretty good indication of how much linoleic acid someone has been eating. Blood levels, not so good. And we'll talk about why, because primarily because the linoleic acid breaks down. And so in the blood, it can be broken down. So if you see lower levels of linoleic acid in the blood, it can mean that it's just breaking down into HNE, which is the bad byproduct of linoleic acid

that causes many problems for humans. So blood levels of linoleic acid, not a good indicator. Fatty acid levels, I mean, excuse me, fat tissue depot levels, that's a good indicator of how much you've been eating. When we store it, we don't get rid of polyunsaturated fatty acids very easily.

So the more you eat, the more you store, the more your cell membranes get full of this. And we'll talk about what that does in terms of the mechanistic side of metabolic resistance in a moment. So when you eat linoleic acid, say you have chicken fingers or French fries or even noodles or chicken sauteed in canola oil, or worse would be soybean oil because it has more linoleic acid. Worse even that would be cottonseed oil, right? The more linoleic acid, probably the worse for humans from an evolutionary perspective. You're just concentrating the stuff.

So in the gut, so you eat it, you eat the food, it goes into your stomach, and then it moves out of the stomach through something called the pyloric sphincter. And you move into, you have the lower sphincters and you move into the duodenum, which is the first part of the gut beyond your stomach. There's a little bend in the stomach. And in that part of the small intestine, there appear to be receptors for cannabinoids, which are things like anandamide and AEA. So these are endogenous cannabinoids. So people know that when you smoke marijuana, you get the munchies because when you ingest cannabinoids, when you inhale THC or cannabidiol, the same mechanism is activated. There is a mechanism by which cannabinoids,

whether it's THC, cannabidiol, or our endogenous cannabinoids, anandamide and 2-AEA, or 2-HE and AEA, they trigger hunger in humans. This is part of our programming as humans. And we know this very well. And so what happens is linoleic acid breaks down into those in the human gut. And there are receptors for those cannabinoids in the human gut, which is crazy. And it's corroborated by the fact that you can fix all this by a surgery that we do called gastric bypass. So the way gastric bypass works is you cut the stomach. This is kind of medieval, but you cut the stomach at its intersection with the duodenum and you attach the stomach

further down on the small intestine, maybe somewhere in the jejunum or the distal duodenum. So basically what you're doing is you're creating a blind loop of bowel. Does that make sense? You have the duodenum where it attaches to the stomach and you're taking this duodenum and you're creating a blind loop of bowel. Does that make sense? You have the duodenum where it attaches to the stomach and you're taking this duodenum and you're making a blind loop of bowel. You're bypassing all these endogenous cannabinoid receptors and you connect the stomach down lower, right? So if you eat linoleic acid now,

you missed all of these receptors. That fixes satiety almost instantly. People become insulin sensitive overnight with the surgery. They lose weight immediately. Their satiety, like almost instantly, people become insulin sensitive overnight with the surgery. They lose weight immediately. Their satiety goes through the roof because you're bypassing all those receptors. You can still eat garbage, not a good thing. You can still eat the garbage and you'll bypass all the receptors, which is why it works. The problem is that you get a blind loop here. You malabsorb because there are other things you need to absorb in this section of the small intestine. Your body probably created that for a reason. Yeah, you think so? Yeah, your body probably created that for a reason.

You get blind loop syndrome, you can get B12 deficiencies, you can get iron deficiencies, all kinds of problems. And the body can also then develop these receptors further down, more distally in the small intestine, and then people end up with the same problem again.

But it shows you the way that that surgery works. The Roux-en-Y gastric bypass probably just bypasses all of those mechanisms that create hijacked satiety in people who are eating garbage. And how often do people who are eating this way, how often do people who are getting the surgery get counseling to improve the quality of their food in a meaningful way? It doesn't happen often. They might say, eat more fiber, but are they going to say avoid seed oils? No. That's going to be included.

Whatever shit pamphlet they have there that's going to be their nutritional guidelines is going to be inclusive of all the same things the American Heart Association is saying. Exactly. Whole grains. So when I was in Arizona, we went to a bariatric clinic,

which is the surgery clinic where they do these type of things. They might do Roux-en-Y, which is the surgery I described, gastric bypass. They might do lap banding where they put the band around the stomach. All of these are medieval. They might do like a sleeve gastrectomy where they just make the stomach smaller. And so on the second floor is the bariatrics clinic where they treat people who are obese with surgery. On the first floor, when you walk in, there's a snack stand. What's at the snack stand? Coffee cake, Cheetos, tortilla chips, Doritos, Reese's peanut butter cups. What clown world are we living in, man?

It's crazy. So this is the type of hypocrisy you see in medicine all the time, right? First floor, they give you snacks, they make you hungry. Second floor, they cut your stomach out and they reroute your intestines. But further down the mechanistic pathway with this satiety thing, there's drugs on both sides of this equation. So there are drugs we use when people have cancers that we give them cannabinoids to make them hungry because they get cachexia from cancer. So we give them cannabinoids to help with the appetite, right? People may use marijuana medicinally, quote unquote, to help with appetite when they're in the throes of a cancer because of this mechanism. Similarly, there's a drug that blocks these cannabinoid receptors, specifically the cannabinoid receptor 1, CB1 in

the brain called Ramonibant. And Ramonibant may still be legal in Europe. It's not legal in the States, but the trials in the States clearly show that when you give people this drug that blocks CB1 in the brain, they lose weight. They become more insulin sensitive. They also commit suicide because- Well, Anandamide was named after Ananda, which is bliss in Sanskrit, right? So it's the bliss chemical, right? It's one of them, right? One of them. Yeah, most certainly. And that's what THC sinks into, those same receptor sites as anandamide. We have hundreds of thousands of years, millions of years of programming as humans. The reductionist physiology and nutrition doesn't work.

We need to understand that, hey, you're eating an evolutionarily inconsistent diet with these seed oils. That's the problem. The problem is not that you need to block the cannabinoid receptor system or, you know, that's reductionist thinking. It's the same as, it's analogous to what we're doing with LDL. We're just, we're blocking, oh, you don't need LDL. You can just, you know, just take this PCSK9 inhibitor and, you know, you'll be fine. It's the same thing. You know, we wouldn't want to give people Ramonibant because you could just correct it and not eat seed oils, man. It's, it's, it's such a simple equation, but the proof of concept is there because the drug works and we know that it works. So I think that people on the calories in calories outside will say

people are sick because they're eating too much, but they will fail to think about why they're eating too much. Oh, they're just not disciplined enough or they're just not moving enough. They're not exercising hard enough. And no, I think these people in the calories in, calories out, the very zealous people in that situation, in that paradigm are doing these other people who are trying to lose weight a disservice by not understanding the psychology behind all this and the way that these chemicals really hijack satiety and make it virtually impossible to stop eating. So it's not just eating an extra 500 calories

because you have bad genetics or because you're a bad person or because you're not strong enough mentally because you're not David Goggins, you're eating an extra 500 calories. It's not like that. It's just because you're eating foods, specifically seed oils probably, that are evolutionarily inappropriate. We never ate 70 years of corn and it's hijacking your satiety. So that's the problem.

It's easily fixable. But when you do things like you say, everyone has atherosclerosis and therefore should be on statin. Everyone is overeating. Therefore, we should just eat less. You completely rob these people of the opportunity to find the root cause of their issue and make the appropriate change, which aligns everything and makes life so much better when you're not suffering in calorie restricted prison or whatever sort of prison you're going to put yourself into with an evolutionarily inappropriate action. So yes, it is calories in, calories out, but if you increase the quality of your food, your calories in will be easier, your calories out will be different. And so that's the satiety

equation. I'll pause there, but the next piece of the equation with seed oils, they're not just bad from that perspective. There's a really interesting set of evidence around cardiovascular disease that I want to talk about too. Fuck yeah, that's brilliant. I don't need to stop you. I also want to get into macular degeneration. Let's do that one. All of that. So fucking go, go, go, brother. Go, go, go. So we see the problem here with seed oils, right? Evolutionarily inappropriate consumption of highly concentrated amounts of linoleic acid that we would never have had. There's a group in Bolivia called the simene or the chimene. It's T-S-I-M-E-N-E. And they're quite interesting. And you look at them, you look at Catavans, you look at the Hadza, indigenous groups eating their

native diet really only get two to 3% of their calories from linoleic acid. If you want to get really granular, you can use an app like Chronometer and you can see what your omega-6% is in terms of calories. You can see how many grams of omega-6 you're doing per day. When I put my diet in there and I did a video on YouTube about this and we're gonna do a reel on Instagram about this, I was getting 1.3% of my calories from omega-6.

That's kind of where I wanted. And that's what I would say. If you're somebody that really wants to track, this might be too granular for most people, you want less than two to 3% of your calories from linoleic acid. Most of the American population, 10 to 15% of their calories are from linoleic acid.

And probably I would say, if we're doing any sort of back of the envelope calculation based on what's evolutionarily appropriate, anything about four to 5% from linoleic acid is probably pushing you onto that spectrum of prediabetes and problems. So you don't want to be there. You can just put the foods you're eating in chronometer and you'll see how much omega-6 you're getting. And most of that omega-6 is probably linoleic acid. And then break

it down, how much of your calories is coming from omega-6, and you can see that percentage. But these people don't get the problems we have. And this is something that's been talked about often, the Hadza, the Cimine. Until recently, they had an interesting change in their lifestyle that made them problematic and made them have metabolic disease. The Katavans, the Ikung generally, certain times of the year, they do have more insulin resistance when they eat lots of nuts that are high in linoleic acid, these mongongo nuts, the Ikung. But most of these people are very healthy. They don't have cardiovascular disease in any amount like we do. They don't have cancers. They don't have dementias. They don't have chronic diseases. They don't have lupus. They don't have rheumatoid arthritis. These are not even,

they don't exist. These surveys have been done over and over and over. They're smaller groups, but the numbers are not there. There are examples of wild humans who are way healthier than we are. And I don't understand why I was never taught about that in medical school. Yeah. Weston A. Price's work is not in that where it should be fucking frontline and center. The outliers teach us so much, right? The outliers teach us like, why can that guy be healthy? But all of us in the United States can't be healthy. Oh, we're just broken. That's bad genetics. No, which is we're doing something differently. There's a clue there, but we miss it So the simone are really interesting or the chimene they've begun

They used to be quote-unquote the healthiest hearts in the world the lowest rates of heart disease in the world And they've begun to see obesity and heart disease creep in and what happened the people who had access to market foods Were the people who became obese and unhealthy And what are they getting in the market? All the things we talked about, seed oils, processed grains, processed sugars. And I'm remembering that I forgot to tell this one piece of the story with Kevin Hall's study, not Matt Hall, the processed food versus the unprocessed food study. When they give people the processed food, they can't control for linoleic acid because in the processed foods, there's just more linoleic acid. You cannot match the linoleic acid with unprocessed and processed foods. So they matched carbohydrates, protein, fat, fiber,

salt, sugar, caloric density, and it was ad lib, but the processed food group gets more linoleic acid, which is consistent with the hypothesis that linoleic acid could be driving the problems with the satiety issue for us as humans. So the semen, we see it in these cultures when they begin to eat these market foods of which seed oils are always there, they get problems. So there's all sorts of these natural experiments and these natural studies going on in the natural world of these issues. Now, interestingly, I had my friends Tucker Goodrich and Jeff Nobbs on my podcast recently, and I was reading one of their blogs. And I've learned something that I didn't know before, that when you don't have seed oils in your diet, like these groups do, specifically the Cimine and the Katavins, smoking does not

increase your risk of cardiovascular disease. It's not associated, like what the heck? So we think about things that cause oxidative stress. Smoking is a big one, right? Because it's creating a bunch of free radicals, but what gets oxidized? Linoleic acid gets oxidized. So smoking is like the spark. Smoking is the spark. And what's the tinder? It looks to be linoleic acid. It looks to be this omega-6 polyunsaturated fatty acid. And maybe in the podcast, we can put a picture of a polyunsaturated fatty acid up and show the double bonds. All of those double bonds in a polyunsaturated fatty acid are points where the spark, the free radical,

can go in and attack the molecule and make a lipid peroxide. And that is how free radical biology works. That's how lipid peroxides get made. That's how free radical reactions get created. And that's how oxidative stress happens. So you get smoking creating free radicals, but if you've got no tinder, you don't really have as much damage. I'm not saying that smoking is good for humans, but it's interesting to me that smoking is not associated with cardiovascular disease in populations where linoleic acid doesn't occur in the diet, which is a kind of a segue into the idea for cardiovascular disease. So what causes cardiovascular disease? That's the beginning of our conversation, right? Is it ApoB? No, it's not ApoB. It's potentially oxidized LDL, oxidized ApoB, not ApoB, not native ApoB, it's oxidized ApoB. That's the problem because we know

that in cell culture, remember how I talked about the macrophage engulfing that LDL particle? If you give a macrophage a native LDL particle, the macrophage is just going to be here floating around like a happy little immune cell. It's not going to go over here and eat this guy. But if that is oxidized, if that has changes to the ApoB100, it's going to trigger the scavenger receptor over here on the macrophage. It sees it as foreign and it eats it. So macrophages only eat oxidized LDL. What's oxidizing an LDL? Linoleic acid. It's linoleic acid that's creating this fragile intermediate. That's the tinder in our body. So how do we get more LDL and how do we get more linoleic acid into the LDL particle? You eat more linoleic acid and it accumulates in

your LDL. We know this. This is very clearly shown in the medical literature. You eat more linoleic acid, more linoleic acid in your LDL and more linoleic acid in your LDL, more oxidized LDL. Each step, A goes to B goes to C, that's all clearly shown in the medical literature. And there's studies that show if you take people and you decrease their saturated fat and you increase the polyunsaturated fat, what happens? This is where things get really interesting. LDL goes down, ApoB goes down, and the mainstream physicians put their hands up and they get so excited. And they ignore the fact that oxidized LDL goes up. And that LP little a, which is a

scavenger molecule like LDL that holds on to oxidized phospholipids, that goes up. And if you give people soy oil, LPPLA2, lipoprotein PLA2, phospholipase A2, that goes up. And when we know that, when LPPLA2 goes up, there's inflammation kind of in the arterial wall. That's setting up a condition where the endothelium is not healthy and those plaques are unstable. That increases with soy oil. So when I just kind of scratch my head and shake my head in disbelief when there are people in the nutrition community who say that there's no data that seed oils are inflammatory. Is oxidized LDL not the product of inflammation? Is LPPLA2 not the product of inflammation? Is LP little a not

the product of inflammation? There's clear evidence that seed oils are inflammatory and highly connected with culprits caught red-handed in the vascular endothelial process, the process of atherosclerosis. So I don't know what else you need. I don't know what you need more of a smoking gun there than to say the more linoleic acid you need, the more susceptible to oxidation your LDL is.

That's a very, very bad thing. So I think if I want to paint the whole picture, the way I see it is if you eat more processed food, seed oils primarily, processed sugar and processed grains, there's a very high likelihood, I would say a near certainty that you're going to be more insulin resistant, that your fasting insulin is going to rise, that your milieu, that the pond you're swimming in is going to get more dirty, that your immune cells are going to be dysfunctional, that you're going to be poor, that you're going to be worse at wound repair. So that when you get micro tears in your endothelium because your blood moving through it quickly, or you smoke a cigarette, or you're near someone

smoking a cigarette, or you're really stressed, or you're near someone smoking a cigarette, or you're really stressed, or you drink alcohol, we can talk about that one too. If you get these little micro tears in your endothelium, you're not going to repair them as well because you're insulin resistant. And how did you get insulin resistant? Because you're eating junk food, right?

So you get micro tears. We all get micro tears. We all bump and skin our knees, but those micro tears don't get repaired as well. So more LDL is now getting pulled into the microtares and held onto in the endothelial, subendothelial space in the intima of the arterial wall, where it's getting more likely to be oxidized, engulfed by macrophages, and there's disordered wound repair. And then that fatty streak, which was supposed to be a scab that eventually pulls off your knee and leaves a little scar, but it's not a problem, becomes a seething red hot boil full of unstable plaque, full of angry immune cells because you have impaired wound repair

because you're diabetic and this LDL is more likely to oxidize. So to me, that makes a lot of sense in terms of this atherosclerotic process. And it's all driven by, let's ask the why behind the why behind the why, the processed foods, right? Which are high in seed oils, processed sugar, and processed grains. So when people in the mainstream medical community say LDL causes atherosclerosis, I say, that is an inaccurate statement. That is an imprecise misleading statement. That's false. LDL doesn't cause atherosclerosis. ApoB particles don't cause atherosclerosis. They may get pulled into the process of wound repair in the arterial wall. And if that process is dysfunctional, and if that LDL is more likely to be oxidized,

then they may be involved. But there's no evidence that these A will be particles are directly injurious to the endothelium, right? Because that is what would have to be true in my mind for philosophically, if we're really being clear about what we're saying, and this is very important to be detailed, LDL must damage the endothelial wall if it's causing atherosclerosis because the proximate event of atherosclerosis is damage to the endothelial wall. It's not the LDL particle because the LDL particle cannot damage the endothelial wall. It doesn't damage the endothelial wall. There's no evidence of that, but that's what's being lost in all of this discussion about ApoB. And I think it's,

it's, I believe that it's being lost amidst good faith. These people want, I think these doctors want to help people, but they're missing the forest for the trees. And they're not understanding that just because ApoB gets involved in this process and the majority of humans in the world are insulin resistant because we don't understand what's causing insulin resistance and Western medicine is not looking at that in detail, that doesn't mean that ApoB is causing it. So that's kind of drawing a full circle now with the atherosclerosis and the cardiovascular disease. And there's tons of evidence that seed oils are very bad from that perspective,

if that wasn't enough that you needed. And then we'll talk about, I mentioned macular degeneration here to kind of put the bow on it. So the number one cause of blindness in the world is macular degeneration. And that is where tissues of the retina in your eye deteriorate. And so in the back of your eye, you have a retina and then a small portion of the retina where there's a really high density of rods and cones is called the macula. That's where you focus your vision most of the time. And you can see it. When you're looking at the back of someone's eye in medical school, you can see the macula and that degenerates in people with macular degeneration. It can cause blind spots. It can cause floaters. It can cause flashing lights for

people, but that's the number one cause of blindness in the world today. And there are multiple, not just one, but multiple studies. They're observational epidemiology, but they strongly associate the consumption of vegetable oil with macular degeneration. And when it happens over and over and over in the literature, and then it's supported by animal models, you have a conciliance of the evidence. You have a convergence of the evidence. And you're saying, wait, this totally makes sense. If you're putting fragile oils

into a very fragile part of the body that is exposed to ultraviolet light or exposed to light all the time, it would make sense that you have breakdown of the cells in your eye from this linoleic acid. And the literature shows that. It's an association. It's a strong association. It's a consistent, strong association. But how do you do an interventional study with that, right? So when we look at the literature, we're saying, okay, you cannot draw causative inference here, but if there's enough studies

that show it, and there are no studies that do not show this, right? The difference that I must point out is that if you look at meat and cancer, for instance, if you look at meat and cancer, for instance, people would say, well, there's epidemiology that connects meat with cancer, but there's also epidemiology that doesn't connect meat with cancer if you look in Asia. So there's conflicting epidemiology in the nutrition world regarding red meat and cancer. Well, and we're also just saying meat blankly. Yes, exactly. Instead of really looking at the quality of the food, right? That was the whole nonsense behind what the health. Exactly. But if you look at macular degeneration, there's no epidemiology that says seed oils are protective for macular degeneration. All the epidemiology says more seed oils,

more macular degeneration. And so in that situation, you're like, okay. And then when I look at meat and cancer or vegetables and longevity, you need to look for these things that are confounders, healthy user bias, unhealthy user bias that help you sort it out. And for the life of me, I can't think about why somebody eating a vegetable oil would have an unhealthy user bias, right? Because you're seeing an association between vegetable oil and macular degeneration. What are people who are eating vegetable oils doing that's causing more macular degeneration? Or is it actually a causative relationship? The seed oils are causing it because that's what you always have to ask with epidemiology. What are people who are eating red meat doing that could be causing cancer? Well,

maybe it's everything they're eating with the red meat at McDonald's, you know, the Coke, the seed oils, right? How many times do you see someone at the barbecue just eat red meat? They're eating it with the brownie and cookies and- Or it's covered in barbecue sauce and sugar and a bunch of other shit. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So this is how you have to look at this epidemiology because we don't have an interventional study

where we give people seed oils and we look at their macular degeneration. But we do have multiple epidemiology observational studies which consistently point to this. And I think that's just the tip of the iceberg because when you look at the amount of linoleic acid in someone's fat, that's associated with cardiovascular disease. So that's interesting. Now we've got a cardiovascular disease association. Again, no causative inference, but an association. If you look at linoleic acid in the blood,

the data is very mixed with cardiovascular disease because probably linoleic acid breaks down into HNE, that product that we know is problematic from French fries. HNE has all sorts of problems in humans. Probably HNE is one of the single greatest drivers of fat cells turning into broken fat cells. And broken fat cells lie at the root of metabolic dysfunction insulin resistance. I want to get down that rabbit hole a little bit because that's really interesting. And that's kind of the center of this whole conversation is what causes insulin resistance at a molecular level. And there's good evidence that HNE breaks fat cells and broken fat cells are what cause insulin resistance. And insulin resistance is what causes metabolic dysfunction. And metabolic dysfunction is what causes your immune cells and your wound

repair to be problematic. And we talked about all of the downstream cascades from that earlier in the podcast, atherosclerosis, probably macular degeneration, all these things. But seed oils and macular degeneration is a very strong connection. And I don't know how anyone can ignore that. And so that's a scary thing. So if people have been eating seed oils their whole life, the simple answer is stop. Stop now. Stop yesterday and your body will get rid of them eventually. In talking with Tucker and Jeff, I came across something that was very interesting to me. And this is the fact that if you have a lot of linoleic acid in your body, which those of us who have been eating seed oils for our whole lives probably do. I think I'm probably good because I've not had seed oils in 10 or 15 years of my life, but many people listening

have probably had lots of seed oils their whole life. That can break down into HNE, this problematic compound that causes probably satiety issues, can break fat cells, cause insulin resistance. You can probably get rid of HNE more quickly by being in ketosis. And as you know, I'm not a huge fan of ketosis for most people long-term, but the way that ketones are made is a process called beta-oxidation, and that process also breaks down HNE. So there's a possibility that short-term keto or a ketogenic cycle might be helpful for somebody with lots of HNE. Have you found any of the, I doubt that they've looked into this yet, but from the

research that's been around in fasting, water fast, things like that, that like a four-day water fast, the study they did, I think it was three or four days at Stanford, or any of the stuff that you've seen around Valter Longo's work, which can be misused. Yeah, yeah, it is. I'm fucking completely correct on it. Yeah. But have you found that that can accelerate the process? You know, say you don't want to do keto for three weeks, but you're willing to do a fasting mimicking diet with strictly, you know, low calorie, good fucking food, organic, high-end fats and protein.

And then that's what your thousand calories a day is your 500 calories a day is for five days, or you only go water for four days. Would that help accelerate the process? It certainly drives ketosis much quicker. It resets metabolism. In the times that I've done that, I've had about five or six fasts between water only and fasting mimicking, which is my own spin on that, obviously. I don't think prolong is worth a shit. It is not. But yeah, that's my take, at least on that. Can I make it better? Sure. And can that be low hanging fruit for people to accelerate that and start to break that down and clear it out? Have you found anything else that works with that? With sauna,

ice bath, things like that, that are going to help move things out from a passive sweating standpoint? I don't know about sauna and ice bath from an HNE or a lipid perspective. I think it's, but I do think that if you've eaten seed oils your whole life, a week of ketosis every now and then, a three-day fast, whatever you can do, it's probably not a bad idea to jumpstart it. I don't think long-term it's great for humans for reasons we talked about earlier. But the fact that beta-oxidation removes HNE, which is a breakdown product of linoleic acid in the human body, is really interesting. And I think that may be some of the benefit

to short-term ketosis or periodic ketosis renal as they're trying to do this healing process. And I mean, let's be honest, there's a lot of good work in the fasting community and in the keto community for people with diabetes that are full-blown. So do I think that somebody with a significant amount of obesity and full-blown diabetes?

Should eat as much fruit or honey as I do no way doesn't make any sense Uh is a little bit probably gonna help you. Yeah, maybe a little bit but you could also try straight ketosis and so I think there's There's there's also this question of if you are different places along the healing continuum. Should you involve different? different modalities for yourself and I think that I sometimes get biased thinking I'm a 45-year-old man who's pretty healthy and just wants to kick ass and surf and lift weights and be as vital as I can. I'm definitely not limiting my carbohydrates, but that might not be the right place for everyone at all times. If you're very diabetic,

maybe some short-term carbohydrate limitation, ketosis, beta-oxidation, removal of HNE could be beneficial, at least from a mechanistic standpoint. Cool. I love that. Let's dive in real briefly on alcohol's play into this, because I know there's a lot of my listeners that listen in. Every now and then I have some Dry Farm or a little Desnuda tequila, and I leave it at that. There's no added sugars, nothing like that. These are high-end things. But we know, I mean, if I'm perfectly honest, alcohol is my least favorite drug. It has the most consequence. It's the easiest one to overdo, but it is the world's drug outside of coffee, right? It is the one that's used most often in celebration. It's the one that's most legally acceptable worldwide.

And what have you found with alcohol? I've got a couple, you know, definitely have a client that was asking a lot of questions around this stuff., you know, definitely have a client that was asking a lot of questions around this stuff. And I know that he's a single man who likes to drink when he's on dates. And that's something that's counterintuitive to some of the goals that we've set out for each other. Yeah, so this is a problem.

You know, hats off to Andrew Huberman who did a podcast on alcohol recently and some articles that I was turned onto from that one. So even small amounts of alcohol, one to two drinks a day, seven to 14 drinks per week have been associated with thinning of the neocortex in the brain in humans.

We definitely know that two drinks a day or three drinks a day, 21 drinks a week is associated with thinning of brain regions, but even one drink a day can be associated, averaged over a course of a week, seven drinks a week can be associated, averaged over a course of a week, seven drinks a week can be associated with regression or thinning of important brain

regions that you need to function as a human. So that's the first piece. The second piece is oxidative stress. We talked about cigarettes as the spark, but alcohol does the same thing. Alcohol doesn't have tar going into your lungs and alcohol doesn't have acrolein, which is a apparently carcinogenic component of cigarette smoke going into the lungs. But both- Is acrolein in organic tobacco or just in the processed cigarettes? I don't know. You'd have to check it.

It might be in organic tobacco too. But again, the problems with the components of cigarettes may be less problematic if you don't have linoleic acid tinder. We don't know that for sure, right? Right. I'm a huge fan of organic tobacco and vape stuff. And to your point, one of the final straws for me was meeting an indigenous shaman from Ecuador who was 95 and he was smoking Mapacho like a chimney. Mapacho is a South American tobacco that has 20 times the nicotine content of north american tobacco and i asked when this guy started through a translator she said he became a tobe quero at five years old it was his first plant medicine so for fucking 90 years this guy's been working

with tobacco same deal he was shredded he looked like he was 60 years old i mean he had a weathered face you know tannis tannis could be um but he smoked for 90 years. No word for cancer in their tribe. No word for any of this shit. It just didn't exist. That's really interesting with the Cimine and the Catavans, right? Probably no seed oils in the tribe, right? None, yeah. So is that the same thing going on?

And that's a really interesting question that we can look into because I don't know what the relative amounts of acrolein are in a processed tobacco versus a non-processed tobacco? That's a really interesting question. But interestingly, and connected with this, when you fry vegetable oil, acrolein is released into the air. So in fry restaurants or in third world countries where they're using a lot of fry oils in the home. That's actually, so I was looking at this report from the IARC, the International Association on Research on Cancer, WHO organization. The second cause,

the second most common cause of lung cancer behind cigarettes is vegetable oil frying included in the group. Yeah. Fine. It's creating acrolein. So all these people in McDonald's over the fryer, is that, is that a health that i worked at burger king for two years 14 to 16 thank god i was young is it a health hazard you know it's accurate but acrolein is coming off the the uh you know the the vaporized the you know whatever is the smoke from the seed oils in the fryer and you know you're frying something in a pan there's smoke coming off of that pan. You definitely don't want the aerosolized Teflon components either and the perfluoroalkylated compounds, the PFAs. I've seen a lot on air fryers too, which I'm sure you're well associated with.

Yeah. Yeah. You got to be careful with that stuff a little bit. So circling back, we were talking about tobacco. We were talking about macular degeneration. Alcohol. Alcohol was where we were going. So alcohol is also an oxidative stress, just like cigarettes. So you can find tons of evidence that when you consume alcohol, your glutathione, which is your molecular policeman, antioxidant policeman, is consumed. Oxidized glutathione rises when you consume alcohol, which means that the molecular placement is being used up and turned from reduced glutathione to oxidized glutathione as it takes

care of that free radical bandit in the body. So alcohol is an oxidative stressor in humans. It's just like cigarettes in that sense. It's probably better than cigarettes, better being a very relative term with a very strongly constructed air quotes at this moment, but it still is an oxidative stress. And so if you are full of tinder, if you are full of linoleic acid, like the average Western human, and you're drinking alcohol,

you're lighting that tinder on fire and you're potentially oxidizing your LDL, creating atherosclerosis, worsening macular degeneration in your eye, creating endothelial dysfunction, erectile dysfunction. I mean, everything is going from there. So you can think about it like this. How flammable am I,

which is determined in my belief by how much linoleic acid is in your cells. And then if you're very flammable, you don't want to be using things that are sparks. You don't want to be drinking a lot of alcohol or any alcohol. You don't want to be inhaling diesel fumes. You don't want heavy metals. You don't want cigarettes in your life. You know, you get less flammable. Maybe you can play with that stuff a little bit more, but you better be less flammable. So your client drinking all this alcohol,

how flammable are you? And if you want to know how flammable you are, I think the best proxy test would again be a fasting insulin. How metabolically healthy are you? Because I think that is the same as how flammable are you. If you're more flammable, you're bound to be less metabolically healthy. Absolutely. So your client needs a fasting insulin. And I would say, if the fasting insulin is above five, no alcohol, right? If the fasting insulin is below five, it's still poisonous. It's still bad for your brain, but you're not as flammable. So you get to determine your comfort with that. And to your client, I would also say, I'm pretty sure this guy is attractive enough, cool enough, and charismatic enough without the freaking alcohol.

Yeah, no doubt. No doubt. But I remember when I was single. You're cool enough. I remember when I was single and it certainly is something that helps take the edge off, you know, and the nerves of a date. But don't you think that's a- I agree with you.

I love the idea of helping people understand like that's a crutch you don't need. Yeah, no doubt. And you're cool enough without it, you know? Do scary things. Go on a date without alcohol. Yeah. And then you start the ball rolling. Well, I mean, you're active too. Like I look at your lifestyle and you're showing me just the gorgeous view from your house in Costa Rica. Back to you get to surf and you're in the jungle, you're better than nature. It's like you've inverted the house plant scenario to where like everything around you is plants, you know, You're just walking out and you're like, you're in the womb of mother nature.

I can only imagine what that's like because I've been to places like that. And that's kind of what I'm trying to construct with our farm in Lockhart. But a date there, a date at the ocean, a date on the fucking surfboard, you don't need alcohol for that. You get your thrills from the fucking, from nature itself, you know, that is, that is the bonding experience. And it's also the thing that, uh, that maybe, maybe that is the way I can make a, make a, uh, build a bridge with that, you know, like, like get outdoors, do something fun outside day dates, shit like that. And then that could be an easier way to, to, to socialize, but also have something that's on the table where it's not just you guys caught in a pressure cooker telephone booth conversation, but also have something that's on the table where it's not just you guys caught

in a pressure cooker telephone booth conversation, but you guys actually get to focus on some other things and enjoy your time together. And that can be relationship building as well. I completely agree. And that environment that I've created is no accident. That's completely intentional. Me saying, this is the way that I want to live my life. I want to be in nature. I want to be around less cars. I want to be around less traffic. I want to be closer to things that give me joy and help me experience moments of flow state. For me, that's surfing at this point in my life. And so that's very intentional. I just want to say that because I think people will hear that about my lifestyle and say, that guy's got it easy. Must be nice to be rich. And it's like,

you know, that's actually not about it.. I lived that same lifestyle for years when I was a ski bum. When I got out of college, I had maybe $300 to my name and I was living a similar lifestyle. I didn't have the same house, but I lived in a place that was in the mountains, not around cars. It was a less stressful lifestyle. I worked in a restaurant at night, waiting tables a few hours a day. Some people would say that's stressful. Some people would say it wasn't. But I mean, I had semblances of the same life that I have now when I had no fraction of wealth in any way, shape, or form. So I think that it's a challenging equation for people, especially if you have

family, but be intentional about it and you can put little pieces of that. If that's what you want, you can put that into your life. You can move out to a farm, right? Life is way cheaper on a farm. You can buy ground beef. People always look at my diet and they say, that's crazy expensive.

There was a prominent NBA trainer who reached out to me recently or tagged me in a story. And he said, he had this receipt and he goes, I just spent $280 on meat. What did you buy? He bought filet mignon. He's doing animal based, right? What are you doing, man?

Buy $7 a pound grass-fed ground beef. That's 80 to 90% of what I eat in my diet. I can afford, you know, I can afford ribeyes, but I eat mostly ground beef because it tastes good. It's cheap. It's affordable. It's easy to get. I want to use the whole cow. And honestly, the ribeyes in Costa Rica aren't as good as the ribeyes in the States because there's different breeds of cattle. So it's just easier

for me to get it. And I look forward to that hamburger every day. So you don't have to eat super expensive meat to do this way of eating. But I know we're probably running up on time for you. We're getting close, brother. So let's just, let's talk about a few things there if you want. What else do you want to talk about? I'm letting you roll. You got your note list over there. You got the paper, like a beautiful mind paper.

It is a little beautiful mind. It is a beautiful mind paper over there. I think we covered basically everything on there. What I want to talk about is insulin resistance and what causes it. And this may be a little bit of a technical topic for some people. And if this is too technical, just speed past this podcast or rewatch something we've already done on the podcast. But it's really important people understand this because I believe the single greatest

driver of chronic illness is insulin resistance. So this is the common etiology of most, the majority of all the diseases we see in Western society. And I'm a doctor. So maybe I should have given my credentials at the beginning. For people that don't know, I'm a double board certified medical doctor. I went to medical school in Arizona. I did my residency at the University of Arizona. I'm board certified as a physician nutrition specialist, but none of that means jack shit. It's just, those are the mainstream medical school credentials. I didn't learn anything that I talked about on this podcast in any of that training. So it's essentially worthless. I would say discard those credentials

when you're thinking about what I'm saying and just take what I'm saying at face value because Western medicine won't teach you any of these things. And I didn't learn any of that in Western medicine. And I don't think credential comparing is valuable. But within Western medicine and what I've seen in those years

as a medical student, as a resident, when I was a physician assistant before medical school in cardiology for four years, insulin resistance is the driver of atherosclerosis. We talked about how that happens, impaired wound healing, impaired immune cells, incorporation of LDL into the plaque. It's the driver of autoimmune disease. It's a driver of dementia, Parkinson's disease. It's a driver of mood disorders. It's a driver of so many things, diabetes, obesity being the most prevalent things. But what causes that? And most people would say it's because you're eating of mood disorders. It's a driver of so many things, diabetes, obesity being the most prevalent

things, but what causes that? And most people would say it's because you're eating too much. So why are you eating too much? We've gone through all these steps already in the podcast. I just want to recapitulate them for people. You're eating too much because your satiety is hijacked. Why is your satiety hijacked? Because you're eating processed foods like Kevin Hall's study. Processed sugar, processed seed oils, processed grains, get those three out of your diet. You will do better. You will not eat as much. Processed seed oils, I think, are the main driver. And they're different than things like olive oil, which I'll talk about for a moment. They're refined, bleached, and deodorized. We didn't talk about canola oil either. We'll get it all in here, Kyle. I'm just fucking swinging right now, bro. I'm swinging. So we're talking

about insulin resistance, then canola oil. So what causes insulin resistance? And I think it's broken fat cells. Now we're getting technical, but I think anyone deep in the field of endocrinology or atherosclerosis and lipidology will agree with me that broken fat cells are the cause of atherosclerosis.

So these are adipose depose. You have one inside of your peritoneum. This is around your intestines, inside your belly. And you have some that are subcutaneous around kind of the fat you can pinch around your belly button, the love handles, that's subcutaneous. They're both problematic, but the visceral fat is especially problematic. But if you have broken fat cells, you have insulin resistance. How are the fat cells broken? They don't divide. They become really big and thick and swollen, but they won't divide. There's hypertrophy of a fat cell. You get a big muscle, the muscle gets bigger, and there's hyperplasia. Hyperplasia is when the fat cell can divide.

If the fat cell can't divide, it just gets stuffed with more nutrients, more fats, more glucose, and it gets bigger and bigger and bigger. And what happens to things like that? They burst and they leak out inflammatory mediators. They leak out lipokines, which are communication signals to the rest of the body. And they leak out free fatty acids, which causes the muscle and the liver to refuse the actions of insulin. So we're back to the muscles, excuse me, we're back to the fat cell. That's where it starts. What breaks fat cells? HNE. Where does that come from? Linoleic acid. So there's a real clear path and that's an oversimplification, but that is true. And we know that HNE breaks fat cells, but it's broken fat cells. So I would say this and people will debate this, but I believe this

strongly. Excess seed oils cause insulin resistance. They break your fat cells and everything falls apart and the train wreck begins. Where would you place, you know, like an excess of carbohydrates into that? I mean, because it seems it's kind of, it's almost like, you know, the fault of what the hell claiming that meat causes cancer without looking at the style of meat and everything else that you're eating.

It would seem counterintuitive to say that it's just seed oil when the people that are eating seed oil are also eating the high processed carbohydrates, right? And the processed carbohydrates are a massive one. We had Dan and Cara on from NutriSense. I think you introduced me to those guys back in the day. They were fucking phenomenal. I had Cara back on a second time. She blew my mind. She's, yeah, I think the world of her. She's quite a looker and she knows her shit inside and out. She's fantastic. But yeah, getting into that, where is the carb equation factoring into this?

Because when I think of insulin resistance, typically the first thing that comes to mind is going to be somebody who eats or has very high levels of blood sugar where the pancreas finally is like, fuck dude, I can't keep up with this. Is that a dated model or is that somehow fold in with that? So it's complicated, but here's my take on it. I think that

processed sugar looks to be problematic for humans, but fruit and honey, not so problematic. So excess carbohydrates is dependent on the details, right? Are you eating processed sugar, high fructose corn syrup? And we talked earlier in the podcast, people can rewind to that about how those are different and a little bit of literature around that. But honey is not the same as fruit. Honey is not the same as processed sugar. Fruit is not the same as processed sugar. So I eat probably two to 300 grams of fruit and honey per day. Most people would say that's excess, but my fasting insulin is three. I've worn the CGMs. You can look at the glucose area under the curve, my glycemic variability. I'm not insulin resistant. I'm pretty damn sure of that. Fruit and honey do not cause

insulin resistance. So there is this feeling in the keto community that you can get something called insulin-induced insulin resistance, which happens at a molecular level. If you have lots of insulin from eating lots of carbohydrates, you can induce some short-term insulin resistance, but it's very fleeting. It's evanescent, man. I think that most insulin resistance is a combination of processed sugar in the setting of seed oil consumption. And as you pointed out, those occur together very often. It's very rare that somebody is eating lots of processed sugar with no seed oils. In fact, I don't even know if that ever happens, right? I'm in Costa Rica, so I see what happens in other countries. And they have the pure sugar, real sugar Coke, and they eat a lot of Coke, and they drink a lot of Coke, they drink a lot of

soda, and they have a lot of seed oils. So there's no divergence there. I don't know if there's a culture that I've ever seen. Maybe something exists, and that would be an interesting thing for people to point out to us and we could study it, but they usually occur together. So I think it's very difficult to tease them apart. They're both problematic. You got to get rid of both, but from a mechanistic perspective, I understand better how seed oils are causing the problems, but sugars do appear to be problematic as well. But I think for most people, bananas, apples, grapefruit, oranges, cherries are not causing diabetes. Now, to be clear, if you have diabetes and your glucose

is dysregulated because you are insulin resistant, because your fat cells are broken and they're signaling to the rest of the body to refuse the actions of insulin at the insulin receptor, then if you eat honey, your blood sugar might go high, but that doesn't mean that honey is causing it, right? And there's actually, I believe, someone can factor me on this, that there is research in diabetics that if you give them honey, which sounds like the worst thing ever, they become more insulin sensitive. Their A1C goes up because their blood sugar goes up, but they become more insulin sensitive on a glucose tolerance test. So that's a little bit of splitting hairs. And I don't think most diabetics

need to be eating a lot of honey. Like I said earlier, if you're diabetic, if you know you're insulin resistant, then cut your carbohydrates down and then gradually increase them as you become a metabolic machine. But I think that the sugars are a problem, but we're talking mostly about processed sugars. Never, in my opinion, did fruit make someone diabetic. People will point historically to English kings and say, look, they had diabetes, they were obese and they ate fruit, but they also drank alcohol. These things were never separated. Piles of meat and fucking bread and whatever they get their hands on too. Yeah, exactly. People point to the Egyptians and they say,

the Egyptians, they ate a lot of carbohydrates and they had atherosclerosis. The Egyptians were probably the first people to make seed oils. Historically, there's evidence of that. They certainly had palm oil. I think they had some other seed oils. So the Egyptians appeared to have oils too,

because in the communities that are anti-carb focused, they'll say, look, the Egyptians didn't have seed oils. When in fact they appear to have, and they had carbohydrates and they had atherosclerosis in the mummies. So there's a lot of history there. Lots of grains, I mean, would settle the argument right there.

Yeah, grains. If you've got grains, you have a very high concentration of something that's going to potentially cause higher levels of blood sugar. That's also going to be devoid of any of the micronutrients that you actually want and potentially attaching themselves to the micronutrients you need so you can shit them out. I mean, that's in there. Yep. And it's again, evolutionarily inconsistent. So the whole conversation is wrapped in this

discussion of what did humans do? What did homo sapiens do for 350,000 years? And if we do things that are different than that, maybe we'll adapt in 30,000 years, but not in our lifetime. And it's going to be really bumpy along the way. So maybe in 45,000 years, I have doubts that homo sapiens will even be around at the rate we're going now, but maybe we will be able to tolerate seed oils or maybe we'll be fine with gluten or grains. But right now I think that the evolutionarily inconsistent things we do on our diets, processed sugars, seed oils, processed grains, are massive drivers of chronic illness. And we talked about the insulin resistance driver with the seed oils at the level of the fat cells and HNE. You can also look at seed oils being incorporated into cardiolipin at the level

of mitochondria. I just want to talk about canola oil real quickly, this low erucic acid rapeseed oil, because it's in everything. And that's the one I hear the most when I go to Dell Children's Hospital cafeteria, when I go to Whole Foods, it's canola oil. Now, canola oil is, from a linoleic acid standpoint, it's better than cottonseed or grapeseed or corn or sunflower. All of those are in the 45 to 65% linoleic acid in the oil. Canola oil is 25% linoleic acid, so it's lower. And there are some studies that show if you substitute canola oil for soybean oil, people lose more weight. And then if you substitute olive oil for canola oil, you're even better because it's lower linoleic acid from the canola oil.

And I would say if you substitute tallow or butter for olive oil, you're even better because then you have an animal fat and you have the unique nutrients in the animal fat, stearic acid, oxygen fatty acids. But canola oil is a problem like we talked about earlier because it's from the rapeseed. It's from a plant that is not a food for humans, has never been a food for humans. You could argue that corn, in a pinch, you might eat some corn. Native Americans did. I don't think it was their prized food until recently. It wasn't bison. Yeah. Yeah. It wasn't a bison. Not celebrating it. I don't think in the same way, but no human tribe has ever eaten a rapeseed and we had to make them low erucic acid because of this cardiac liposis, myocardial liposis. And then if you, there's a

great video on YouTube, how they make canola oil. So you take the rapeseeds, you grind them up, it gets real hot. You see this like murky oil pouring down, then you heat it, then you bleach it, you deodorize it, you hexane wash it with this neurotoxin, this organic, right? So this is a solvent chemical, organic, not being the good organic, being an organic, this is organic chemistry. This is the bad use of the word organic and organic chemistry solvent to wash it. Then it's bleached, deodorized, reheated. And there's these great images of this wax just coming off the canola oil. That's the sludge that you put in canola oil and you come out, it's bleached, deodorized, refined, hexane washed. There are traces of hexane in canola oil. All seed oils probably have this. It's put into a plastic container and they'll say no trans fat. Total bullshit, right? Because if there's less than 0.5 grams of trans fat per 14 grams of the serving of the food, you can say no trans fat. But when they've done analyses on the canola oil, it has anywhere from 3.5 to 4.6% trans fatty acids in it, which is not surprising because

you have a very fragile polyunsaturated oil being heated, refined, bleached, deodorized. And this is even before it goes into fryers at the University of Arizona, Dell Children's Hospital, or the Mayo Clinic, where it's going to be heated and oxidized even more. So there's even more trans fat in a fryer or a pan with canola oil. But just in the canola oil, which has been studied, you get off the shelf store 4.6% trans fat. Now, I don't think anyone, I can't say that in absolute, very few people, no one that I've ever heard of would say that trans fat is benign for humans. And trans fat is clearly a problem and you're getting trans fat in these seed oils as well. That's the one thing we didn't even talk about. And there's interesting evidence that trans fat in these seed oils as well. That's the one thing we didn't even talk about. And there's interesting evidence that trans fat inhibits the production of prostacyclin.

Prostacyclin is an eicosanoid. So in the formation, the human body does amazing things with fatty acids. We can take these arachidonic acid. We can actually take linoleic acid and make it into arachidonic acid, and then we can make prostacyclin. You can also make leukotrienes, or you can make thromboxane. Well, thromboxane is pro-coagulation, make prostacyclin. You can also make leukotrienes or you can make thromboxane. Well, thromboxane is pro-coagulation and prostacyclin is anti-coagulation. So trans fatty acids inhibit the formation of prostacyclin. So they're preventing your body from not clotting, right? So it imbalances this clot, not clot, basal dilatation balance in the human body. So there's interesting mechanisms around trans fats for humans. And where do we find those? Oh, when you're heating a polyunsaturated oil, you're making trans fats, but we're not told about this and they get around it with labeling.

And then when you test the actual fats, they're higher than they're saying. So it's a crazy thing. So that's the end product, you know, how you're using it, right? If you're cooking, if you're going to always use that to fry, we should be looking at that. What are the results there, right? Yeah. What are, briefly before we jam, what are your favorite, obviously, I'm going to guess tallow, maybe duck fat, things like that. Maybe not duck fat because of higher omega-6, but tallow and butter, things like that are your favorite things to cook with. Where would you ever recommend, or is it a strong recommendation against coconut oil and olive oil? Okay. So yes, tallow, which is rendered beef fat is my favorite with butter for cooking,

but I should say that I'd never use a cooking oil because I have a stainless steel grill in Costa Rica and I never cook in a pan. I just, I grill my meat. I never, I never. And if I'm sauteing something in a pan, I want the meat grill my meat. Okay. I never, I never, and if I'm sauteing something in a pan, I want the meat to be fatty enough that the tallow comes out of the meat. The crazy thing about 80, 20 or 85, 15 hamburger is there's tallow in it. Yeah.

It'll fucking shrink big time if you cook it too long. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like, wait a minute, I had a nice burger there. No, it's too small. You render the tallow out of it. Like there's, it's built in. The cooking oil is built into healthy, fatty meat. You don't even need cooking oil in the pan. People think, oh, I have to put olive oil in my Teflon pan to cook my steak.

No, you don't need to do that at all. Like the meat will cook in its own oil if it's fatty enough. So I don't even use the cooking oils. If you absolutely want to cook in oil, I would use tallow or butter or ghee. Ghee being rendered rendered clarified butter without the milk solids. So beyond that, coconut oil, yes, you can use it. It's not an animal fat. So you're losing the benefits of animal fats. You're losing stearic acid, which is an 18 carbon saturated fatty acid that appears to help with weight loss and satiety. So the opposite of linoleic acid at a high level, stearic acid and odd chain fatty acids, which are associated with improvements in cognitive function and performance as we age. So odd chain fatty acids

are something no one ever talks about, but they're probably essential for humans and they're only found in animal fats. So I love this kind of idea that there are nutrients in animal fat that are nutrients. There's like vitamins in animal fat that nobody talks about. People just think it was fat. It's bad. No, it's essential for humans. Stearic acid is critical for humans. It's very valuable. Odd chain fatty acid is very valuable. You lose that when you go to coconut and you lose it when you go to olive. Having said that, coconut is much lower than oleic acid. So it's like 2%, right? So coconut oil, probably better than, if you don't have an animal fat, coconut oil, probably okay. Olive oil starts to get into the realm of like the in-between oils for me, avocado and olive. They both have problems with purity and quality. Avocado, especially in the

literature, there's a great article that I did a reel about on Instagram about the purity problems with avocado oil. A lot of avocado oils cut with seed oils. Some avocado oil is completely seed oils. Almost all avocado oil is much higher level of peroxide value than you'd want in your oil, which is a measure of rancidity and oxidation. So as you become more unsaturated, less saturated, liquid oils at room temperature are more susceptible to oxidation they're more fragile which is the why i think fish oil in a pill is dangerous yeah and especially fish oil in an open container when i was a vegan i used to drink this udos oil a 369 i used to drink remember that shit i actually met udo i met udo at Burning Man. Oh my God. I fucking just forgot about that. That just reminded

me. He was an interesting character. I'm sure. I'm sure he's really have a blast at this. Oh my God. I'm sure he has great intentions, but you don't want to have omega-3 fatty acids in an open container. They're just oxidizing. It's like a fucking, it's like dynamite. If you want to do fish oil and it's very pure and you put it in a capsule, maybe. But I think people can get plenty of omega-3s from animal fats and eggs. I don't even do fish oil, but that's a whole separate conversation. But omega-3s appear valuable in the literature relative to omega-6s. But you don't want your oils open to the air because they're oxidizing. So this is the problem with avocado oil and the problem with olive oil. A lot of olive oil is cut

also. Extra virgin olive oil, quote unquote, is a big business. But extra virgin olive oil and avocado oil are not made refined, bleached, and deodorized. So theoretically, they're better. Old school olive oil used to be made with these discs, these hemp discs, and they would just press them down. They would just squeeze the olives and the olive oil comes out.

That's it. And then it gets heated a little bit to refine it, but not above 124 degrees, I believe, for it to be called extra virgin. So that's pretty good, but it's higher in linoleic acid than tallow, butter, and ghee. And you're going to accumulate linoleic acid regardless of where it's from. So olive oil ranges from 6% to 24% linoleic acid. It's very variable and you don't know what you're getting. And so I don't really see a need for olive oil and I wouldn't cook with olive oil, much more monounsaturated. And because of the linoleic acid in there, you're going to get some oxidation when you cook with it. So I wouldn't cook with avocado or olives. Some people want

to put it on a salad and I just think like, well, why would you eat a salad? If you're eating a salad and you're thriving, you do you, but that's a whole separate podcast that we've done before about why I'm not a fan of vegetables. So I don't see a use for them. And if your olive oil is in plastic, so I'm staying at an Airbnb here in Austin and we did this little respectful nonjudgmental reel of like what's in the Airbnb

and what the people who live there are eating. It's like a window into what people are eating in the United States. And it's olive oil and plastic and seed oils sneaking into tons of foods and lots of things that look like they wouldn't have seed oils like basil pesto and it's got seed oils in it, right? So if your olive oil is in plastic, it's garbage. If it's not in dark glass, it's garbage. If it doesn't have an expiration date, it's garbage. If you don't know where it was made and when it was made, it's garbage. If it's not in dark glass, it's garbage. If it doesn't have an expiration date, it's garbage. If you don't know where it was made and when it was made, it's probably garbage. Like you got to be really careful with this stuff. Olive oil is a craft and it's probably, it's something that is not good for very long. You know, when I get butter in Costa Rica,

I can get raw butter and it's basically churned a few days before I get it. And then I consume it. I'm not going to let butter sit in my fridge for weeks or months. Would you recommend putting butter in the fridge instead of leaving it on the counter? I do. Okay. I do. Yeah. Okay.

I mean, yeah, but I eat a lot of butter. Yeah. So I'll go through, I mean, I'll go through more than a pound of butter a week easily, easily more than a pound of butter a week. And so no problem. And it's getting, but I'm getting it from a producer, from a farmer, it's churned, it's quick. I'm getting raw milk too. How long has your olive oil been sitting on the shelf? You don't know, man. Nobody knows, but that's even less stable than my butter, way less stable. And you don't even know how long it's been sitting on the shelf in lights.

You know, at least my butter's in the fridge and it's in a dark environment. It's cold. Olive oil is not in the freezer section at the grocery store. So this is my problem with these oils. Yes, they're way better than seed oils, way better than seed oils. They're not refined, leached, and deodorized, but they're far inferior to tallow butter and ghee, in my opinion. Man, it's been a fucking rocket ship ride having you on today. Is there anything else that you want to chime in with? Other than-

Let's see my notes. I think we got almost everything, bro. You know what? Anytime you're in town, I want to have you on the podcast. I love the work that you do. I love the fact that you take it upon yourself to do so much for the people,

you know, with your content and the exploration that you continue, with your content and the exploration that you continue to dive into and dive into. And even though you don't live here like you used to for a moment, it's been excellent following you and continuing to share your stuff with people because it's like this guy, you're fucking in it. You're way in it and you're changing the game for a lot of people. And I really respect and love you, brother. Man, it feels so good to be able to do that. I'm so grateful to be in this position.

Increasingly, when I come to the States, people will say hi in the grocery store and they'll tell me they've lost 30 or 40 pounds and they're trying animal. And I'm just, it just, man, it just, I get so happy. I'm like, oh my God, I'm actually doing something valuable. I'm in Costa Rica looking at things through this digital media lens. And I know it's helping people, but it's really cool

to see it. So those words mean a ton to me. And I mean, I don't think I've got it all figured out. I just want to ask questions and engage with people in a respectful manner. Like we were talking about before the podcast, it's been very hard to have reasonable debates slash discussions with people because the other side often doesn't want to engage for whatever reason, which is disheartening, but I'll keep doing what I'm doing and I hope it helps people, man. And I try to be humble. I've changed my mind on things in the past. I definitely evolved on carbohydrates and a few things in that realm, but I'm willing and open to be proven wrong. And I think the discussion is what's

valuable for people, but we have to stop limiting the discussion and we have to keep talking about these things. And I think the worst thing is when Western medicine doesn't ask the question. So hopefully if I throw enough rocks from across the moat at the ivory towers of Western medicine, which I'm now outside of, because I'm not seeing patients in person. I'm doing education that eventually somebody will lift the, you know, lift the gates and be like, what do you want?

You know, and, and we'll get some discussion happening in that sense, which is, which is the main goal is really changing Western medicine and, and then changing, you know, the next order of magnitude of lives in a positive way.

Hell yeah, brother. What can people find you online? Carnivore MD 2.0 on Instagram. I got a Carnivore MD channel on YouTube. And that's it, man. Those are the big ones. Still running the podcast?

Yeah, I got the podcast. It's called Fundamental Health. If you need to get more organs in your life, I built a company called Heart and Soil Supplements with an amazing team of health advocates, which is all free. People can email us radicalhealthathardandsoil.co. They'll walk you through how to construct an animal-based diet and get seed oils out of your diet. It's all there for you. And if you need more organs,

we make desiccated organs. I want you to get fresh organs if you can, but if you want to get desiccated organs, we make that. In fact, I was talking to your previous podcast guest about getting brain in his diet because he had, I think, some brain injuries and traumas in the past. And a lot of people can't get brain. So a great application of the desiccated organs is you can get more, it's easier to get brain in desiccated form. We make that, it's called Moo Memory and Brain, Heart and Soil. And then that reminds me of my website, which is carnivoremd.com. There's a free animal-based macronutrient calculator. So you can put in your weight, you can put in your age and your activity level, and it'll tell you, like, if an animal-based diet,

you're going to, it shows you how to construct it, carbs, protein, fat with some, you know, some leeway in there to get you started with macros for an animal-based diet. So hopefully that stuff is helpful to people and it's a pleasure and a privilege to be with you, brother. Thank you so much, brother. Thanks, man. you