Kyle Kingsbury Podcast - #287 Mark Gober’s ”An End to the Upside Down Reset”

Episode Date: January 18, 2023

Marky Mark and the Upside Down Bunch yall! Mark Gober is back with another hit. We dive right into Leftism vs Liberalism. Mark goes through some of the aims of the World Economic Forum as laid out in his new book "An End to the Upside Down Reset". He gives a super 30,000 foot abridgment of it while I interject with my “Kyle-ness” Enjoy this ep first, then go get it for yourself. He’s a gangster in my book and he will be back yall!   ORGANIFI GIVEAWAY Keep those reviews coming in! Please drop a dope review and include your IG/Twitter handle and we’ll get together for some Organifi even faster moving forward. Connect with Mark:   Website: markgober.com  Instagram: @markgober_author Twitter: @markgoberauthor Facebook: Mark Gober    All of Mark's Books:  An End to Upside Down Thinking An End to Upside Down Living An End to Upside Down Liberty An End to Upside Down Contact An End to the Upside Down Reset(Audible coming Feb 7) Show Notes:   WEF - Welcome to 2030(facebook) Young Global Leaders - searchable list   Interesting members… Wyclef Jean - on behalf of Haiti Macron Mayor Pete  World Economic Forum - Corporate Partners  "The Influences of Lucifer and Ahriman: Human Responsibility for the Earth" -Rudolph Steiner "The Incarnation of Arhiman..." - Rudolph Steiner  KKP #193 Chervin Jafariah Spotify Apple Sponsors:   HVMN - Ketone IQ This is legit jetfuel for your brain. Whether you’re fat adapted or not, this will work. Get 20% off by heading to hvmn.com/kkp  discount will be automatically applied at checkout.  Lucy Go to lucy.co and use codeword “KKP” at Checkout to get 20% off the best nicotine gum in the game, or check out their lozenge. Masterworks What a world we live in! We can invest in fine art via Masterworks. To skip their waitlist and get involved right away, head to masterworks.art/kyle , request an invitation and use code “KYLE” when setting up your account. Othership App For an incredible mindfulness app and experience and for KKP listeners get 2 free weeks on the app, go to http://othership.onelink.me/loJo/KKP    To Work With Kyle Kingsbury Podcast   Connect with Kyle:   Fit For Service Academy App: Fit For Service Academy  Instagram: @livingwiththekingsburys   Odysee: odysee.com/@KyleKingsburypod  Youtube: Kyle Kingbury Podcast  Kyles website: www.kingsbu.com  Zion Node: https://getzion.com/ > Enter PubKey  >PubKey: YXykqSCaSTZNMy2pZI2o6RNIN0YDtHgvarhy18dFOU25_asVcBSiu691v4zM6bkLDHtzQB2PJC4AJA7BF19HVWUi7fmQ   Like and subscribe to the podcast anywhere you can find podcasts. Leave a 5-star review and let me know what resonates or doesn’t.

Welcome back to the show, everybody. Today's guest is the return of Mark Gober. Mark Gober is absolutely on a tear. It's kind of, it's comical, but necessary. I think a lot is being drawn in his direction and he is the right person to discuss these topics for certain. One of my favorite authors and somebody who I will continue to have on this podcast year after year, just an incredible thinker. You might remember him from the book,

An End to Upside-Down Liberty, which I believe was his third book. Since he's been on the podcast and written that one, he has come out with An End to Upside-Down Contact, and then most recently, An End to Upside-Down Reset reset, discussing the great reset. I've been waiting for an expert to really dive into what the great reset is, what the world economic forum is, who's behind it and what the plans are. And when Mark decided to write this book, it popped up in my Amazon feed because I follow him and I was like, you got to be fucking kidding me. This is the best thing ever. So I'm very excited that we got to dive into this. It is a cliff notes of what's discussed in the book and a lot of me rambling about different ways that I've seen this in my own life or in the media or different things like

that. But by no means does this exhaust the material. I highly, highly recommend you get this book. Every book that I've read of his has been mind-blowing and important for a deeper understanding of how culture works, a deeper understanding of how government could work, a deeper understanding of what lies ahead of us if we don't change courses and the very real threat of that potential. He's brilliant. There's no two ways about it. He's brilliant from an Ivy League standpoint, brilliant from a spiritual standpoint, and just an incredible speaker. And I'm thrilled that he came back on the podcast on short notice. There are a number of ways you can support this

podcast. First and foremost, share it, share it with a friend and share it with somebody who's been talking about this. Somebody's queued up and they're like, what's up with this dude, Klaus Schwab? And you've all know her Harari and all the shit that they're talking about and transhumanism and all this stuff. Send them this podcast, send them a podcast and just say, check this one out. Kyle Kingsbury did it. He's one of my favorites. Easy way to get extra listeners. Uh, leave us a five-star rating with one or two ways. The show has helped you out in life. That's probably the best way for us to get big eyes on us is to leave us those

five-star ratings on iTunes, Spotify, wherever you can. And last but not least, support our sponsors. They make this show absolutely possible and I love it. I absolutely love doing this show. It's one of my favorite jobs that I have. I juggle three or four of them, not counting dadding and husbanding, which as you know, if you're married with kids, that's a job in and of itself. This continues to fill my cup. It is something that I really appreciate and really love because I get to meet people like Mark. And even though we've only met online a couple of times, my goal is to get him out as a speaker at one of our fit for service events, either later this year or early next. And what an incredible human. So support our sponsors.

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Kyle, thanks so much for having me. Oh, this is the best. I was telling, I was just, we were chopping it up before the podcast started and I was just laughing about how I was talking to my assistant about getting you on after you had an end to upside down contact. Is that the name of that book? And I was like, this is great. I can't wait to talk about that. And then I just started chewing on it and hadn't read it yet.

So I was kind of waiting to plan the interview. And then it just came up on my feed on Amazon because I follow you there that an end to upside down reset was coming out. And I was like, get the fuck out. All right, get them on now. I'm going to read this thing the day it comes out. And it's incredible. Man, it's incredible. I really appreciate it, Kyle. To me, all the books are interrelated. Even though an end to upside down reset covers the great reset, contact covers human interactions with non-human intelligence. It's all the same stuff I'm really trying to get to, which is what is the nature of reality that we're all in together?

Why are we here? Who are we? And these are sort of like different angles to approach that question. Yeah, that's an important question because, you know, I mean, depending on where we're at in Maslow's hierarchy of needs, most of us have thought of that question. It may not be something that we're daily fixated on, but it was certainly something that I was fixated on in some of my higher dose journeys, you know?

And I think that's something that drove you, obviously, you know, you talked about your background on the first time you were on the podcast from Ivy League to tech in San Francisco, and then from there to Adyashanti and walking the path of really trying to unfold and understand like, what then from there to Adyashanti and walking the path of really trying to unfold and understand what is the answer to this question? What are the means of which I get there?

And for somebody who hasn't done high dose of plant medicines, you have seen the same places I've seen. You have very similar understandings of the nature of reality, and you state it so beautifully and eloquently. I absolutely love that. That was one of my favorite things on End Upside Down Liberty was how we went over that cross section. And when you get to that last quadrant where governance meets the full understanding of a non-dual reality, it was just perfectly laid out. I was like, this is fucking it. I've never heard it described this way in relation to politics, and it means so much, and it's such an important tool for people to chew on and see things in a

different way. I mean, even just trying to describe that interview with you, somebody was like, oh, so who's going to pay for the roads? And I was like, classic. I was like, don't worry, he covers that. Don't worry, he covers that. But that's fucking low-hanging fruit. But that's people's knee-jerk reaction to something. When they hear, like, less government? Who will pay for the roads? Anyhow, I'm sure there's a lot of knee-jerk reactions that you found in writing an end to Upside Down and the Upside Down reset.

And that said, as we were talking about before the podcast, there couldn't be a more important thing to engage with. Obviously, we're going to take arrows talking about this. And you break this down. I do want to walk us through this book a bit. I mean, still encourage the readers. We're not going to fucking give away everything, obviously, in a one-hour podcast. But one of the things you do so beautifully is you talk about how this really parallels the ideology behind the Great Reset, really parallels leftism. And you bring in different psychologists that break down leftism versus liberalism versus conservatism. And I think those are super important pieces. I want to dive into that because that'll give people kind of a breakdown.

My listeners have heard me talk about Klaus Schwab many times. They've heard me talk about Val Noah Harari and transhumanism and a lot of the things that are kind of the wheels driving the machine in certain aspects, but they have never really heard me break down fully what the World Economic Forum is. And perhaps there's someone new to the podcast that doesn't even understand. They saw a great reset ad three years ago and they're like, oh, that thing that's, that's gone. Nobody's, you know, that never happened. You know, they just think it's like, it's just a fart in the wind and it's not even going to bother them. Can you break down, you know, what is, what is the world economic forum and what are, what are the people trying to accomplish with a great reset? And then we'll jump into piece by piece, really leftism versus liberalism and these kind of

things. And I'll keep walking you through it so you don't have to remember your entire book by heart. And I'll throw some commentary in where I can. Okay. Well, I'm glad you're starting here, Kyle, because I've found when I tell people that I have a new book out about The Great Reset, there are some people who say, what's The Great Reset?

They've never heard of it. And I say, oh, well, it's the World Economic Forum's vision for society. And then some people will say they've heard of the World Economic Forum, but they don't really know much about it. So these are fundamental issues to start with. The World Economic Forum is a group that calls itself a body that's involved in public-private partnerships. So it is effectively influencing governments around the world and corporations around the world to try to enact change in a way that it, at least on the surface, says is beneficial. And in my view, I think there are probably a lot of people involved who do think it's beneficial, the direction that they're taking us. The point of my book, however, is that just because you think something is good or you have a good intention doesn't necessarily mean it's going to have positive results. So Klaus Schwab, who is the executive director of the World Economic

Forum, he has even said, and there's a video floating around the internet where he says this at the Harvard Kennedy School, that he has a young Global Leaders program where they essentially train people who are up-and-comers, and he says we penetrate the cabinets of governments. So some of the people involved in the Young Global Leaders program include Justin Trudeau. In that same video, Klaus Schwab mentioned Vladimir Putin, although if you go to the World Economic Forum's website, he's not listed. So there are some people who aren't listed in their Young Global Leaders program, but he said it verbally. So I've got that in the end note in the book. But Emmanuel Macron from France. So very powerful people are involved in the Young Global Leaders program, but also people that we probably haven't

heard of who might be involved in corporations or also just other parts of government, but they're not as public. So the point here is that this is an organization that has reach in the most powerful places in the world. And therefore, in my view, understanding their ideology and what they're trying to push is really important because it's coming at us from the public sector, governments, and also the private sector, these corporations. Yeah, it's an important piece. When I first, you know, it's like people throw around davos and

stuff like that and and you know the the especially as we talk about climate and things like that like all the the billionaires show up in their private jets and they want to talk about climate change and it's like uh yeah f those guys but they don't really break down like we're talking about the leaders of coca-cola the leaders of like every major fortune company, and it's been going on since 1973. I believe they changed it in 76, if I'm remembering that correctly. The leaders of governments, the leaders of the most, whoever's controlling the most amount of wealth and has the most amount of influence, they're in there. They've been in there, right? And that's a thing where you're like, all right, we kind of do need to know what their plans are and what they're deciding for us or on behalf of us because they are actually

in a position to do something about it i remember um joe rogan played the darth vader theme music as he played a clip from klaus schwab saying like uh we are in every cabinet you know in every midter country and he starts going through with the German accent talking. That was a shit German accent. I'm sorry. But it was powerful because it's like people are like, yeah, how much change can these guys do? Or how much can this sound?

It's like, they're doing it. They're there. They're in everything. Like, this isn't a little thing. This isn't like, ah, Canada and France. Like, no, no, no, no. These guys are all over the place. They're in every major government.

And if they're not at the top of it, they're right there next to the top. And really, I wouldn't think too much of it either if there wasn't a very pervasive ideology that's stirring now in the public and has been for the past couple of years. I grew up in the Bay Area. I'm a Silicon Valley kid. Went to Montevista High School in Cupertino where Apple was founded, very much was entrenched in a certain way of thinking. And there's still some pieces of that that I take with me today that I think are phenomenal. I don't care who you want to fuck. I've never cared who you want to fuck. It doesn't bother me.

I don't believe you're going to burn in hell. That's not what I see when I go to the center of consciousness. I don't see a judger. I don't see the great judge that's going to send going to burn in hell. That's not what I see when I go to the center of consciousness. I don't see a judger. I don't see the great judge that's going to send you to heaven or hell. That doesn't exist in my mind. And I know that governs a lot of people's decisions here, but it's never been a thing that's bothered me. And certainly as I've extracted myself, like Dave Rubin, from that form of thinking, it

isn't one where I jump full squad into the other one and start condemning people for decisions they want to make with their own body. That said, break down some of these parallels between leftist thinking and then maybe some of the differences between what's been described as leftist versus progressive or liberalism. Yeah. So first of all, my background politically is that I didn't even care about politics until 2020 and I saw what was happening in the world. So I come from a pretty clean slate, blank slate with this stuff where I was just observing what was happening in the world and then was pulled in certain directions. Ultimately, like we talked about in the last podcast, it's a very libertarian

perspective of basically don't mess with people and don't mess with their stuff. People's bodies should be autonomous and their property is essential. That's really what I care about. So I give that as a preface because the term leftism, as I'm learning, is a trigger word for some people that people might have certain assumptions when you use that term. And that's why in the book I tried to define it and show how it's different from liberalism even. So let me take a few steps back. Why is leftism in a book about the Great Reset and the World Economic Forum? Because as I was, number one, watching the world, I was seeing that a lot of the cultural movements were basically left-leaning.

And that was considered mainstream. And anything that was away from that would be considered conspiracy theory or far right or something like that. So I was watching those trends. And then I was looking at what The Great Reset was talking about, and I realized, wow, there's a lot of overlap here. It might not be 100%, but there's an ideology that is pushing society, and The Great Reset seems to be pushing it as well. And to me, it is, it is leftism. And I, early in the book, I distinguished leftism versus liberalism. And I used the analogy from Dennis Prager, who's a conservative. He's very critical of the left,

but he says, look, left is not liberal. For instance, under leftism, race is what people should look at to judge, whereas liberals should say, we're not going to use race to judge people. So leftism might favor segregation in schools, like having dormitories based on skin color, for example, because they would say, well, that's a way of, it's actually anti-racism in a convoluted way because we're putting these people together based on their ethnicity or whatever categorization you want to use. And it's actually some way of showing them respect. But paradoxically, it's using some superficial characteristic to group people. But that's more of leftism.

So another example would be the view of the economy. Leftists might be much more inclined toward socialism or communism, whereas liberals would say, yeah, we need the government involved in the economy, but we're not going to go that far like toward socialism or communism. So it's really this extreme version of the left end of the spectrum. And when I look at the Great Reset, especially some of the cultural movements, but really everything, they're pushing the same kind of stuff. And I also want to clarify a lot of what I'm getting about the Great Reset comes from the World Economic Forum's own words. So in June of 2020, there was a book called COVID-19, The Great Reset, written by Klaus Schwab

and his colleague Thierry Mallaret. So they talk about this great reset of the world. And it was announced initially by Klaus Schwab and then Prince Charles. So very influential people, John Kerry, Al Gore, they've all said this is a time for a great reset. And they describe what this is. However, some of the wording is vague. And what I try to do in the book is to break out what they're actually saying. And the way I break it out isn't exactly the way they break it out in

the book. But what I try to do is take the essential components, including this ideology of leftism that I see all over the place. Yeah, it's beautifully done. Absolutely beautifully done. I have that book. It was very frustrating to read it because it's like, and maybe we'll dive into this at the end, like if there is something to do with consciousness, you know, like if there's a vampire needs to be invited into your house, you know, like if there's something to do with free will or consent and that's why these guys fucking monologue, it's like an evil character in a cartoon movie saying what they're going to do when they have the good guys tied up. It's like, why'd you spend 30 minutes telling us your whole plan? It's very confusing to me that they're so up. A lot of people have seen this by now.

If Jose can find it, we'll link to the video in the show notes, but the very brief video on you'll own nothing and love it, right? You know, paraphrasing, of course, and many more things that attach onto that. But something, just a statement like that, like who is going to own something, right? That's the first question you ask, right? So the fact that they lay these things out, it's very odd to me that they're so upfront about it. Like, this is what we're going to do. This is why we're going to do it. And thank God for COVID-19 because now we get to implement all this shit we've been dreaming up for 30, 40 years. It's crazy to me. Anywho, sorry to sidetrack there. With that, there are plans to

affect every major form of society from culture to politics, economics, environment, technology, and metaphysics. And we're already seeing a lot of this. People are like, well, the plan is by 2030. How does that affect me now? It is causing a lot of effect in countries in Europe, the European Union, and a lot of blame gets put on Russia and Ukraine for lack of certain supplies like fertilizers. But these things are happening. The Netherlands, they have peaceful protests and farmers are getting shot during peaceful protests because they want them to change their way of farming abruptly to a greener policy, which may be awesome long-term, but no one can afford. So they're going to, you know, being the number two contributor to the world's, not just the Netherlands, but the world's food supply, they're unable to do so because of

these political ideas around environment. So I want to briefly just break down and you can go as deep as you want into any of these, but talk a little bit about how the, what are the world economics forums plans for us via culture? Okay. Well, I want to, as a prelude to this, say that they're not positioning it in their literature. And when you read their articles and the things that they're saying in lectures, that this is going to be harmful. That's not how they position it. These changes, in their view, it's for the benefit of humanity.

It's for the common good. It's out of compassion. And this is part of a lot of the leftist ideology. And in the book, I go into some of the psychology where those who are left-leaning tend to latch on to that sort of compassionate mindset, which is in some ways a good thing, but it can lead someone astray if there's a lack of discernment as to what's actually going on behind the curtains. So with regard to culture, and in the book, what I do is I lay out what I consider to be the six major categories of the

Great Reset. They don't lay it out this way in the book, but to me, this is essentially what they're saying. Culture is the first one, which I'm going to talk about in a second. Politics, economics, environment, technology, and metaphysics. So culture is the first one, which relates strongly to this notion of leftism, where in The Great Reset, they're talking about movements toward equality and justice and the common good, and a lot of things you see from leftist politics, which, again, in some ways, these are very good things to talk about, but they can be manipulated or used in ways that are extremely dangerous. And we've seen this happen before, like in communist China, where roughly 65 million people were murdered during the cultural revolution. So when I see the terminology

the Great Reset's using, it sounds a lot like what people who escaped communist China talk about. Some of them are even speaking out like Ai Weiwei and other people who have made it out say, look, the same thing's happening here. You're talking all about justice and diversity and equity, but when you use that improperly, it can be very detrimental. So here's one example, the term equity. It sounds really nice,

but it's come to mean equal outcomes. So that means if, let's say, Kyle, you're better at boxing than someone else, they're going to say, well, no, that's not equitable. We're going to have to, next time you're in a fight, we're going to put a hundred pound weights on your back and see if you can do as well or something like that. Then it's equitable because you guys are equal at that point. So you can start to get in some really, really dark things when you try to force people to be equal in a world where we are naturally unequal in our biological form. We're all unique and diverse. From a metaphysical level, I do think there's

inequality, but in the physical realm, we're unequal. But it's not a bad thing. It's part of what makes the universe so amazing is that diversity. So F.A. Hayek, who's a Nobel Prize winning economist, he talks about this, I quote him in the book. He says, if you want to make everyone equal and we're all different, then you have to treat everyone unequally. So you start to get into these very strange paradoxes, right? It's like, we're going to do something that's negative to you, but it's out of compassion for someone else. And it's like this selective compassion. It's actually not compassionate in many ways. And there seems to be a blindness to it because what will often be highlighted is the way in which it's being compassionate to someone and it will ignore the ways in which it's not being compassionate towards someone else. Yeah, but my buddy Charles Eisenstein has really pointed that out in his amazing essays he's written over the last two and a half years about the, you know, in any time where a government or a people has sought to really favor the collective over the individual, right? And you brought this up in the last podcast. You cannot get rid of the individual that's making up the collective in service to

the collective. That doesn't pan out well. It's just not going to work. No, and many historians have pointed this out, that the worst crimes committed by governments happen when you have extreme collectivism. When they say, well, this is for the common good, and therefore we can do whatever we want to individuals. We can murder people because it's for the common good. It's for the benefit of society. And it's appealing to people's hearts. And there's the heart and there's also the mind. So in a lot of these philosophies, the mind goes out the window. It's just what feels really good, not what necessarily will do good. And we have to keep this in mind because there's a lot of historical precedent for how this goes horribly wrong. And I emphasize this a lot when I talk about it and

when I write, because I think in America, we're in many ways spoiled. If we grew up here, it's like, well, yeah, sure, bad things happened elsewhere, but that wouldn't happen here. This is America. And we just have to not rest on our laurels and be very aware and discerning as to what's happening around us, because human nature is human nature. And we've seen this happen before. And it seems like it's heading in that direction here. Yeah. It's something that I've often scratched my head with. And thankfully I've done, I met my wife on a goodwill tour for the troops. We've been, we met Kuwait and Iraq when I was fighting in the UFC. She was a ring girl. And I've had the fortune of doing that about a dozen times. And I've been to some pretty gnarly countries, war-torn countries.

And so just remember the first time I was there, I was like, oh, this is real. I expected it to be real, but I didn't understand it until I was in the fucking field, like feeling the feels of what that's like. Because stateside, there's never been even anything remotely close to that in my lifetime. Obviously, we had the Civil War, Revolutionary War, things like that, American-Indian Wars, American-Mexican War, all that stuff. But we're talking a long time away from us. Most people have some cognitive dissonance over the quality of human that happened in Nazi Germany. We think that we've evolved in some ways

since World War II, and in some ways we have, but in very few ways have we actually evolved. Technology's evolved. There's been some different things, but the same kind of people that lived in that exact situation that were hunting and were hunted, that's still ingrained in us. It's not even a hundred years ago, right? It's that fast in the grand scheme of things. And I think for some people, the cognitive dissonance is just easier to pretend that humanity has changed and somehow grown up since then. Well, I think an example of how we have not changed is what we've seen regarding quote unquote, the unvaccinated versus the vaccinated, where we've seen a lot of hostility toward like a lot of tribal mentality.

And we hear in the media, people saying like the unvaccinated shouldn't have X, Y, and Z rights. Replace the unvaccinated with whatever you want in atrocities all over the world. It's the same kind of rhetoric. So there is something I agree with you, Kyle, in human nature where this tribalism can happen. It's usually initiated by some kind of manipulation. And in my Liberty book, I talked about some of the psychology, especially the Stanford prison experiment, where people were put into the role of being prison guards and others were in the role of being prisoners. And the prison guards ended up doing horrible things to the prisoners. So some people have said, well, this is an example, even though it hasn't been replicated in their ethical issues with it. This is an example of how if you put people in certain positions, they will become corrupted. So it's like,

we just have to keep our guard up for these sorts of things. And maybe one of the reasons I'm so sensitive to it is that when I started this journey six plus years ago, I was mostly just on the spiritual path, the nature of consciousness. And when you get into those other realms, whether it's through a psychedelic experience, a near-death experience, meditation, Kundalini, people are talking about unconditional love. That's what they're talking about. They're not talking about the dark stuff. And on one level, I think it's really good, but there can be a blindness. So in a lot of those spiritual communities, I was seeing people just not thinking about how certain things could go wrong

or the dark side of things, that we are in a realm of duality, even though the ultimate reality, in my view, is non-dual, where it's just oneness, one consciousness, and many people have experienced that. I think there's a lot of evidence to support it. Within that non-duality, there is duality.

There's a Mark and a Kyle. We can't ignore that. And because of that, you end up with all sorts of duality. You've got good and evil. And in the spiritual community, there's a tendency often to just focus on the good and the light and the love and not the other stuff. It's like we've got to remember that both exist. Otherwise, we could get in trouble. Yeah, beautifully stated. Let's move on to politics. We've talked briefly about how they've infiltrated, if you will, how they've made themselves in every major cabinet in the world. And that is a trackable thing. And even prior to that, before it was the, is it Future Leaders? What's the name of their group? Young Global

Leaders. Young Global Leaders. Young Global Leaders. They had a different name for it. And there's actually quite a few people in US politics that had gone through there with the former name before it got changed. You can look that up for yourself. Maybe Jose can throw some of that in the show notes just to geek out on. What are their plans for politics right now heading forward? Well, they talk about the return of big governments and more global coordination. So for someone like me who wrote a book about liberty, like we talked about last time, where I was arguing we need less and less government, ultimately no government, and they're talking about big government. It's just the alarm

bells went off when I started to read that, that they think we need to have a group of people basically that knows what's best for everyone else. That's really the theme of all this. And in the book, I refer to it as elitism, this notion that some people know what's better for other people. And some people might be using that as a front because they're actually psychopathic and they're like wolves in sheep's clothing. But just based on my own personal experience and a lot of people that I know having been in Silicon Valley and investment banking in New York and that kind of world, I think there are a lot of people who genuinely feel that they're helping. And it's their duty to try to help. They just might be really off in the way in which they're doing it. The problem is that when you enact this sort of stuff through government,

is government has a unilateral ability to alter behavior and define its own morality and tell people what to do. And again, this is where things have gone horribly wrong all over the world throughout human history, when you allow a certain group of people to control others. And I can't remember if we talked about it this last time, but for me, like the ultimate paradox of government is the idea is if we didn't have government, then there would be complete chaos. We couldn't have that. So our solution to it is we're going to take some human beings who we don't trust on their own, and we're going to take a few of those and put them in power

over the other people. It just doesn't even make sense logically as if you're taking human beings and just putting them into a more powerful position. And that's effectively, that's the kind of mindset you hear in the Great Reset. They talk a lot about the social contract, which for me is another huge red flag, because the social contract is this idea, which is not written anywhere that we've signed. It's not an actual contract. The idea that we have all agreed for these people to rule us and we have elections and it's all going to be okay because we've agreed. But we actually haven't agreed officially. There's an implicit agreement. If you look at other areas of the world, like I used to work in the consulting world, advising companies. In that world, you sign contracts with

people that you're going to provide services for them. And if you don't provide the services appropriately, these are the penalties. This is what the pricing is. You lay all that stuff out in advance. With government, you don't have that. It's this quote unquote social contract where you're basically allowing people to govern you. They can charge you whatever they want, i.e. through taxes. They can change the rules of the game during the game, as the economist Hans-Hermann Hoppe says. So for me, this was a big no-no that they want to actually increase government power around the world. Yeah, that's such a big one. It's not necessarily something that we think of from a...

I mean, we're born into it, right? We're born into it like... I'm trying to think of the guy's name. Famous dude, was a comedian, killed himself. Robin Williams? No. God, the name of the title is like, it's about the fish in the water, the story that he tells.

You can't, this is fucking killing me, damn it. All right, I will fucking circle back on that afterwards. Oh, brain fart. Maybe it'll come to me. Is this water? I think is the name of the title. I'll get that, man. That's going to kill me.

Where was I going with it though? I think I know where you're going, that we're like the fish in water. We don't even realize we're in water. I, we're in a government structure and we don't even think twice about it. Exactly. And we might think, you know, you take like, I took a bunch of liberal classes when I was at Arizona State, just staying eligible for football. And some of them were great.

And I learned some cool things. And some of them talked about, you know, like social norms and sociology class, like stand in an elevator, but when the door shuts, face all the people, don't face the door, right? And just see how that makes you feel, right? You're going against the social norm. We can have little experiments like that that help break us free of what we're actually agreeing to on a subtle level when it comes to how we relate to other people within society. But there's no game that breaks us free of thinking what life would be like free of governance or free of taxation or free of effectively changing the rules, right? Printing quite a bit of money in the last few years and quite a bit more before that.

And people don't even look at how that affects them. Like if you have money in the bank, it's actually becoming less and less. It might stay the same, but your value is less and less and less by the minute now. Anywho, yeah. Man, all right, I got to move on. It's still killing me that I can't figure out this guy's name. Talked about it in detail with Peter Attia. What is the plan with economics? They talk a lot about stakeholder capitalism, and it's still something that I don't have a full grasp of. But if you could break that down and really, what is the driving point and the pitch behind it, and really maybe where some of the major pitfalls could be with it? Yeah. So Klaus Schwab has written about stakeholder capitalism at length,

and he's been talking about it with regard to The Great Reset. And there was actually a second book that Schwab and Mallory wrote called The Great Narrative, which was published around 2022. So this is a big part of their plan. And traditional capitalism, and I say this with quotes, because the way we do capitalism around the world today is actually not truly free market capitalism. Because free market capitalism because free market capitalism if you think about like the austrian school of economics and this is more my liberty book but it's people interacting in a voluntary exchange i sell you something and you give me money in exchange for that that's that's true capitalism there's no one intervening and saying hey kyle you can't give mark that or Mark, you can't do that.

So we don't have that in the world because governments do regulate. And that's one of the things also in The Great Reset, they talk about the need for regulation where the government comes in and tells you what to do in the economy. But within our quote unquote capitalism, so it's a hybrid of state intervention and some elements of capitalism. Shareholder capitalism is the main model where the shareholders of a company are the owners. And they are the ones who benefit or not based on the company's performance. Stakeholder capitalism is the idea that actually the company is not just responsible to its shareholders, to its actual owners. It's responsible to basically everyone else in society.

And I think, Kyle, one of the reasons you're having a hard time grasping it, I'm having a hard time grasping it too. It's really vague. They haven't exactly defined who are all these stakeholders. It could just mean anyone you want and say, well, this is stakeholder capitalism. You as a company, you're not serving all of your stakeholders. Now, in some ways, I understand why people support the idea of your stakeholders. Now, in some ways, I understand why people support the idea of stakeholder capitalism because it's like, well, companies shouldn't just pollute everything around them. They should care about people. I'm all for that. The issue is that they're not talking about a voluntary stakeholder capitalism. This is a

compulsory stakeholder capitalism that they're advocating for. It's like, okay, we at the World Economic Forum or anyone we're associated with, we're going to tell the governments what kinds of laws to pass or what kinds of regulations to pass to tell the companies what to do. And then that's going to be their stakeholder capitalism. So where could that go wrong? They could just make up the rules, whatever they want them to be and say, well, this is stakeholder capitalism. And so ESG is one of the big terms that's going around these days, environmental, social, and governance, which is related to this economic vision in the World Economic Forum's Great Reset. It's like companies have to do good by the environment. They want to do good socially and have good governance. But again,

what do those terms mean? They get to be defined by certain people. They get to be defined by the World Economic Forum or the United Nations, and the governments get to enforce that. So this is another one of those potential wolves in sheep's clothing where they say, look, we're trying to transform the economy in a really positive direction. And they explain all the reasons why it's positive. And that's all true in some ways, except they're enforcing it in their own specific way. So what happens if they say, okay, we mandate that companies need to have X number of people of a certain ethnicity, X number of people of a certain gender, X number of people of a certain sexual orientation, all of these criteria that are based on superficial characteristics.

And it's like, if you don't do these things and you're violating all, maybe you're even breaking the law or something, then they get to steer things in the way that they want to. Even if a company says, well, this is actually not in our best interest, we could serve customers better another way. So ultimately, stakeholder capitalism to me, under the Great Reset, is just another way of controlling the economy and not allowing people to freely and voluntarily exchange. That's beautifully stated. And what are their plans for the environment? And we touched a little bit on this, how this is already in effect in countries in Europe and different parts of the world. And just please, I'm just going to shut my mouth and maybe jump in at the end here from

the environmental standpoint, because this is something that's like right in our face and truly does flow with leftist ideology, you know, and, and, and in large part and, and is, you know,

they, they almost give you, um, these little one-liners that discredit, right? Like, should we look into the, the,

the long-term effects of a novel vaccine? Anti-vaxxer, right? Like you get these little bullet point things like, is the climate, hasn't the climate been changing for some time? Does it go up? Are we in the cycle of warming then cooling? How does that work? Climate change denier.

You know, like you have these little, like the bullet points that end all, end the conversation, right? Or trust the science. It's another great one. So if we, you know, and this is really strawmanning anyone's argument, if we steelman the argument, then we, you know, try it on and really grapple with it and understand it for ourselves, perhaps better than the person we're talking to. And then we at least know why they have the thought on that. But talk a little bit about the environment here, because this is one that really is at the forefront,

believe it or not, of a lot of their agenda. Yeah. We'll talk about taking arrows. This is one of those things where I really, I thought it was an important topic to mention. It's essential in terms of where we're heading, but it is so controversial, like you say. If you question the narrative at all,

you are a denier. And I think there are issues with the way they are pushing environmental betterment of the planet. They do mention, first of all, their focus with regard to environment is climate. In some cases, they talk about other areas of the environment that need to improve too, but climate is the focus. So that's what I focus on in the book as well. And I do think it's a good thing for us as a society to try to do better by the environment. So my critiques have nothing to do with that. I'm just concerned about their implementation of betterment of the climate, like of combating climate change.

So one example I give that should raise some red flags and did for me, because again, I wasn't looking at climate at all until all the political stuff started happening in 2020 and something I've been looking into more and more. But in April 2021, Project Veritas, which is the undercover journalism outfit, they recorded a CNN technical director who said some very revealing things like fear sells. And he said that, look, right now we're in COVID and COVID is the thing that everyone's afraid of, but this is not going to go on forever, but we've got something that has longevity and that's climate. So after COVID, we're going to be focusing on climate. And I wrote that in my Liberty book. I included it there when I was talking about mind control in the media. And at the time that I wrote it, we hadn't seen the climate hysteria yet. But it has happened in the way that this CNN technical director talked about.

So for me, that's just a big data point. Like, okay, they're going to use this thing to try to control people and to try to induce fear. Now, with regard to COVID, have people died? Have people gotten sick? Has there been tragedy? Absolutely. It's the same thing with the environment. Like there are issues, but just because there is a problem, there's this mentality I'm noticing.

It's like a herd mentality where if there's a problem, we get to do whatever we want in order to stop it because we believe the solution is going to stop it, even if we end up being wrong in the end. And so in the environmental chapter, I make some of these analogies between COVID and climate, like many others have as well, that it's like it's an emergency or the perception of an emergency is an opportunity to control behavior. We saw that very clearly with COVID. Okay, we've got this emergency. We get to lock you in your homes. We get to coerce you or mandate this experimental shot and so on. We get to lock down your business.

There's been talk of things like climate lockdowns. We'll see how serious that is, but it's a similar kind of mentality. We also hear about electric cars, not allowing people to have their full car ownership. Basically, ways of controlling movement. That's one of the themes that comes up. So again, some of these things, maybe there's benefit, but it could be detrimental. With regard to oil and gas and fossil fuels, there's a very interesting book out by Alex

Epstein called Fossil Future. He points out that there's this kind of cultural milieu that everything with regard to fossil fuels is negative and everything that's an alternative is positive. But he points to solar panels that they're made often in China using low environmental standards and slave labor. So it's like we have to think about both sides of the equation. That's what I try to explain in that chapter. Because if we don't think about both sides of it, then it can be easy to fall into whatever the authorities say, like, oh, we project that X, Y, and Z is going to happen, and therefore we get to control your behavior now. One of the problems with that is that projections, just like with COVID, we see this with climate, they're based on models.

And models are models. They're not necessarily 100% true or they're not 100% predictive. We've seen this historically. I give a number of examples in the book where the expert said, X, Y, and Z is going to happen in the future, and it actually didn't happen. It is a dangerous game for a certain number of people. Again, this is the elitist mentality. We know what's best for you, and therefore, this is going to happen in the future, and we have to control your behavior today. Now, one of the really scary things that in addition to controlling movement through automotive stuff is the president of Alibaba talks about individualized carbon footprint trackers that they're working on, where basically your ability to travel anywhere or just do things

in life, they're going to be monitoring your consumption. So it's that sort of thing that I'm really concerned about with regard to the Great Reset. They're pushing this hard and it's potentially a wolf in sheep's clothing. Sounds really compassionate. Yeah, we should do good things for the environment, but how could that be manipulated to control people? Yeah, that's flawless. I believe there are some countries in Europe right now that are telling people what their carbon score is on a particular flight. So you would see it on your ticket next to mileage, like your carbon score based on how long the flight is and how much

carbon you've used up as a way to kind of seed that and normalize, oh, this is a thing here. This is worth tracking and you're going to see how big your carbon footprint is. And for a lot of people that can't, I shouldn't say can't, don't want to connect dots, it's hard to look at something like the vaccine passport or real ID and different things like that. And then what the president of Alibaba is talking about, which is very much on the agenda to do as a means of control, like all these things being interrelated with one another and coexisting together.

And then also social credit in China, which we see right now. So we'll dive into that here at the end, but let's dive into technology because maybe that's a perfect segue for it, the technology piece, how they plan on using technology. Yeah, and in COVID-19, The Great Reset, the book by Schwab and Mallory, they are very open actually about the risks of technology and what Klaus Schwab has called the fourth industrial revolution, which is, there are different interpretations of it, but transhumanism seems to be a big part of it where like, there's a, there's less distinction between, uh, the immaterial and the, between like the artificial and the organic. So merging humans with artificial intelligence, putting chips in people's brains to help their

brains in some way, but actually you're maybe altering what it means to be human. So it starts to get into very dystopian territory where it's like every dystopian movie you think of where the robots are controlling things and human beings aren't fully human anymore. That's basically what's going on here. But also technology can be used and is talked about in The Great Reset with regard to surveillance. And China is a good model for this. I mean, good in that it's an accurate model, but not good in that this is a very dangerous thing where everything you're doing can be monitored. Now the technology's improved so much. And one of the things I've thought about a lot is human history has gone through many cycles

where there have been dictatorial tendencies, lots of genocide. But what's different about this period to me is that the technology is at a different stage than we've seen in the past, where new things can be done to control people's lives. And that's what I'm sensing when I read COVID-19, the Great Reset, and the Fourth Industrial Revolution. This is very dystopian in a way that we haven't seen in our history books, where we can be monitored, controlled, and actually altered in terms of what it means to be a human. Yeah, it's a big one. I mean, a lot of people will bring up George Orwell, and it's funny how many people with a certain ideology are like,

Orwellians getting thrown around way too much. And it's like, is it way too much? Because it's like, is it, is it way too much? Cause it's sure looking that way, you know? But you know, Schwab's right-hand man, Yuval Noah Harari wrote Sapiens, he wrote Homo Deus and I think 21 Problems for the 21st century, something like that. And he really dives in a lot. Also an atheist and transhumanist openly says so. And he's, you know, they're featured quite a bit together. And I can't tell who's influencing who

or if they're just old buddies that have the exact same vision for humanity, but it is very odd because it is dystopian. And it could only come from a place of one that has zero spiritual connection, zero honoring of our physical material, or even just like, even an honoring of what nature created, right?

Say there is no source, that the thing was just chemical, right? Like on your slide in the four-way graph, that it was just random chemical events that created us this way. It did so perfectly. It did so in a way that brought us to where we are through evolution, through all of the Darwinistic thought process, right? If that's the way that it is, like,

we should be fucking honoring the machinery that nature decided was best. And I've never been a fan of, oh, you're playing God or you're tinkering with this and that. And it's like, because I do like the idea of, you know, having one foot in ancestral wisdom and one foot in the miracle of modern science. Like, I think these are great things. We can use technology for our benefit and understand that it's a two-way, it's a double-edged sword, just like a handgun is. Handgun's not evil. It's a double-edged sword, right?

It depends on the tools used. Technology is that. But it's just odd to me that everything that's talked about in these books that are just taken, they're taken face on as fact. I remember people read Sapiens. I had Jamie Will on the podcast and he was like, no one in academia poked holes in that book. It was just read on. He left like 50,000 years of human

evolution was just like, man, I think this happened. And everybody's like, yep, cool. Like there's no real, nobody's poking holes in the book. And then he continues on further. And, um, you know, there's many different plays that he breaks into from, from a mortal versus immortal and things like that. And obviously obviously there's there's a lot of people in the tech section that have been pushing towards that can i transfer my consciousness like avatar into a machine and effectively live forever can i transfer my consciousness into the metaverse and live in a in an infinite world of realities right but that's not the infinite world this is the infinite world that is a finite world that is dictated by programming right even if it's super intelligent AI that continues to program it and make it bigger and better and behind the curtain, twisting their mustache, laughing to themselves.

It may not be that. It may be people who are in a position of power that really think this is the best way to steer humanity. And they're doing it for their children. They're doing it for their grandkids. They could be doing it for all sorts of really good reasons. But as it turns out, this doesn't look that good. Yeah, I think what you're alluding to is it's like a denial of the natural and i'm with you that there is benefit to technology of course but it's got to be

integrated with an acknowledgement of a natural world that we're a part of and i think we agree on this that there's a metaphysical underpinning to this which is missing in their technological vision and that's the scariest part because it's sort of like human beings are computers. This is the materialist or physicalist perspective that humans just emerged randomly after 13.8 billion years of the universe where evolution just spit out humans and there's no meaning or purpose behind it. And we need to alter humans in order to survive in this environment because there's no meaning or purpose behind it. And we need to alter humans in order to survive in this environment because there's nothing natural about us.

There's nothing natural. I don't know if they would say there's nothing natural, but they don't have the deeper appreciation for maybe our spiritual origin. And therefore, they might engage in things that they think, oh, this is going to help the human. But what if it actually hurts our spiritual connection in some way? So DNA is one thing I've been really concerned about. I don't feel like I have an understanding of it, of like how our DNA actually works. And it's only, the structure was

only discovered in the 1970s. It's only been a few decades since we've understood exactly what DNA is. And I wonder from a spiritual lens, well, what does that mean for our spiritual connection? Is it kind of an antenna that picks up our essence in some way? Is it involved sort of like the brain is that is connecting us to other realms? So when I hear of a lot of things with regard to technology and genetic editing, genetic modification, it's like, well, are we playing with nature in a way that's more dangerous than we could even imagine? The same goes with transhumanism of merging humans with AI. It's like, could some of this technology, while beneficial in certain ways, could it alter our spiritual connection, especially with regard to brain chips? That's like my biggest concern because I do think the brain is involved in our spiritual

connection. And it's like the brain is almost like an antenna receiver or a filtering mechanism that's processing this consciousness that's beyond our body. And the brain is one of the mechanisms for processing it. Well, if you start messing around with the brain and putting chips in there, what is that going to do? I don't know the answer to it. I mean, the same is with the metaverse.

What happens when we put our consciousness in a virtual artificial world? Is that detrimental from a spiritual lens? These things are just not being considered within the Great Reset and within the broader societal discourse right now. So those are points I wanted to raise because they're risks that aren't even acknowledged often. Yeah. I'm sure you're familiar with Robert Anton Wilson. He's a phenomenal author, just a phenomenal thinker, homies with Timothy Leary. And he said, everyone's left brain is what makes us different. It's the right brain that's all the same. The right brain is all the same because that's the piece that connects to the one. And whether that's

true or not, that makes a lot of sense to me, understanding the feminine aspects of ourselves, the intuitive aspects, the aspect that connects to the higher knowing, whatever you'd call that, the one that recognizes synchronicity, is the thing that's connecting to universal consciousness. And this rationale, and certainly a very weighted thing that we must know and must work with in today's society, that's ever-present, but it can't be the only thing that we connect to. And if one of these things that we do to ourselves, whether it be through editing DNA or adding technology within ourselves, disconnects that intuitive side, the knowing side, the no-sys side of our equation, that would be, I mean, that's something you can't, in my opinion, get back. I'm worried about the same thing. We don't know how big the danger is, basically. And it's like,

we might be playing with fire here. Absolutely. Well, that pretty much breaks down in a very, very light, cliff-notey way of what you've written here. I highly, highly encourage people to check it out in all of your work. One thing that we didn't get a chance to talk to, and we've still got some time if you're cool with it, is they end up upside down contact. And what propelled you to write this book? And obviously you've been on just a pace that is breakneck. I've never seen somebody just dish out such amazing books one right after another. I know Paul Selig writes them quick

because he's channeling the whole thing. So maybe that's it. But yeah, breakneck pace. What propelled you to write about this? Well, so an end to upside-down contact looks at human interactions with advanced intelligences, basically. And in the book, I provide evidence that that's a real thing. It's not just fiction. And then the question emerges, who are these beings? What are they doing? Is there a historical precedent for this? So the book explores all that stuff.

But it's something that came up for me very early in my exploration, starting in 2016, when I had this paradigm shift with regard to the nature of consciousness. I was looking at a lot of things like past lives, between lives, things that we just don't have memories of often, although some young children do. Some people have memories in altered states of consciousness. But I was looking a lot at past life regression hypnosis. It was like, I couldn't believe that was a real thing where people would be put into a meditative hypnotic state and

memories would come out. And sometimes those memories were of past lives. And sometimes those memories were of past lives that were not on earth, where the person remembered being another species on a different planet or maybe another dimension or something. So I had been primed with that. And I read a lot about channeling and people would talk about, they would bring in through their consciousness, some other intelligence, some other being that might not even be from earth, maybe from a different dimension. So this was on my mind a lot, the idea that we're not alone. But in my Liberty book, I talk about metaphysics, the reason that the nature of consciousness is relevant to politics and economics.

I tie those together. And I do mention that there is evidence for these other beings. And I speculate, well, could these other beings and intelligences have an influence on our political and economic structures? And I kind of left it there. I just say, look, this is not typically considered. So I wanted to go deeper into that. And the work of John Mack, who's a former head of psychiatry at Harvard, Pulitzer Prize winner, I mean, the most credible person you could imagine. He started to evaluate cases of people who claimed

they were abducted by aliens. Now that sounds insane, but this guy was really studying these people and he concluded they were not psychotic. They had genuine experiences. So he was a believer and wrote a book called Abduction and then Passport to the Cosmos. As a scientist, doctor, he went through the book Abduction, each chapter on some of the most compelling case studies of the people that he talked to. He talked to them, what they remembered before hypnosis, then he used hypnotic techniques, then they would have more memories that came out. And I mentioned all this because there's credibility behind ideas that sound insane. So I'm thinking to myself, so take a few steps back here. I think one of the reasons I write these books is I wrote the first

one thinking, wow, this is so important. The brain doesn't create consciousness. That's the theme of the first book. And then I kept researching and realized, wow, I left this out. And then I write another one and say, wow, I really left this out. And I feel the sense of responsibility when I'm putting books out that I want to give people a comprehensive picture. That's why I'm doing this. And I realized with regard to contact, there's a lot of stuff that I didn't include in my first three books that I've got to get out there. This is essential. There are aliens potentially abducting people. And what John Mack talked about, this Harvard professor was saying that people would come back saying that their sperm and eggs were taken and there were hybrid alien

human hybrids on these ships. This was coming up all over the place. I'm like, okay, I've got to look into this. And if it's not real, then okay, but I've got to evaluate what people are saying. And my conclusion is that, I don't know, some of this stuff's real. I can't wrap my head around it, but there are too many common threads where people in different areas. So John Mack was studying people in the flesh who would come back and say, I had this experience and he used hypnosis, for example. But then you've got Rick Strassman, the University of New Mexico, studying people with DMT. And independently, they're talking about very similar things to what John Mack reported. People were having abduction-like experiences under DMT. And

Rick Strassman was not an expert on abductions. Many of his subjects in the DMT experiments, they didn't know about abductions. So you have these independent accounts and you look historically, there's a lot of overlap. But I want to tie this also to the Great Reset because to me, this is like where my head is right now as we talk, I think we're in some kind of a spiritual war. To me, that's where the data lines up more closely than anything else, that there are dark forces and there are light forces. We want to say light is closer to unconditional love that people experience in an altered state of consciousness and darkness or evil would be the obstruction of that. I think we're in some kind of battle where we're trying to overcome that darkness and move closer to the state of unity, unconditional love, and really discernment too, which is part of it.

And the great reset to me is a manifestation of a lot of darkness of where we could be taken. In the contact book, one of the points I make is that there are beings out there who seem to be benevolent, others that seem to be completely evil, and there are others that can actually deceive. They can shapeshift. They can appear to be one way, and they're not actually that way. They are so advanced that they can alter people's consciousness and alter people's memories. There's something known as a screen memory where they can implant a memory. So it's like human beings are ants relative to these more advanced species in the same way that we look at ants, that they're less advanced. We just might be so much less advanced than these other beings.

And we're being influenced by them. And when I see what's happening with the Great Reset, it parallels a lot of the really dark and evil stuff that I examined in the book. Like without going into too many gory details, people trying to channel effectively or invoke dark demonic beings and doing horrible things to children and other humans in order to do that. I mention it because if that's a reality, then what does that tell us about the dark energy? The dark energy feeds off of fear and suffering and the destruction of innocence and control and power. That's what you get when you hear about the really evil stuff. And it's like, well, where's the great reset taking us? There's a lot of parallels there. So this is where I think there's actually a lot of overlap, even though readers might not necessarily see it on the

surface, between the contact book and the great reset. I love that. I'm super happy you clarified. Are you familiar with Rudolf Steiner's work on Lucifer and Eremon? Yes. I've come across it. I'm not an expert. Just incredible. Well, they're short reads. I'll link to it in the show notes. I think there's one called On the Influences of Aramon and the other one On Lucifer and Aramon. And I did a podcast on this with Sherveen Jafferia that I'll link to in the show notes if people want to back up and see that. But he looked at Lucifer and Aramon as kind of like archetypes. There's the light side and the shadow side. And Luciferic energy represented the spiritual realms, higher realms of consciousness.

And it was beauty. It was on the light side, beauty in and of itself, right? And then on the shadow side, it would be beauty at the cost of everything else, like what we see with people with plastic surgery or not wanting to age, things like that, or wanting to transfer their consciousness to stay alive as opposed to surrendering to the process of life and death as one perfect cycle held within itself. Aramon is, I should say this for Luciferica as well, people that are trying to ascend this realm and get the 5D consciousness and don't think that there's anything to do here, or somebody who says, I'm going to be a martyr so I can

go to heaven, and they don't pay attention to what's happening in their lives right now, that would also be Luciferica on the negative side. Aramonic is the opposite. It is very much the materialist viewpoint that we are only skin, flesh, and blood, and that there's nothing beyond that. The light side of Aramon would be structure, things like mathematics, science at its best. And the negative side of Aramon would be really a lot of what we see in the control of a one-world government. Anytime we've looked at communism, anytime we've looked at what we're being driven towards with the idea that there is no spirit, there is no

source, and that this is just a, when we die, it goes black, that type of mindset. And Steiner predicted that Ahriman would take physical form in this century. And it's very curious to me. Some people think that's super intelligent AI. Some people think it's an actual human like Zuckerberg. I don't go that far, but I just remain curious. And what Steiner alludes to is that it's in working with both. We find our extremes to find our center. It's the middle path. It's the Buddha's way. He calls that the Christ. The Christ is the middle path. And it's in recognizing both that we are spiritual beings and we have a material body. And this time actually does matter. That's why we're here. And then walking that middle path allows us to escape some of the perils of being too far in

one direction or another. Yeah, that's very well said. And I feel like I've been on both ends of that spectrum in my journey. I started off as a materialist, atheist, agnostic. When you die, lights out, that's the end. Life is random and meaningless. That was what I thought to be true, literally. I and nihilism of like, oh, well, nothing matters because I'm oneness in the end. And some people would even say like, I'm not even here. Or Ramana Maharshi would say things like the world that we see doesn't exist. And there's partial truth to that. But it has to be pulled back into this middle area that you're describing, where it's like we have to acknowledge there is stuff for us to do here to be the best version of ourselves to contribute to all that sort of thing that you hear in many spiritual and personal development areas but not having the nihilism of believing that it's all meaningless as well so

it's like this is tricky because at some level people would say, you are just enacting the will of the broader consciousness. You are a vessel for that. And in that you surrender. So there it's, it's this balance of wanting to surrender, but also wanting to be active. It's a balance of passivity and activeness. It's difficult to describe because it's like, you have to kind of throttle back and forth, but you can go too far in either direction. And I do agree with you that this is, to me, combating the great reset or whatever, maybe next it's going to be some other thing

if the great reset doesn't pan out in this way. Although I think we're moving in that direction. It might have a different name. We've got to get to that middle path of being active and resisting things that are actually evil and not just saying, oh, well, it's all just oneness. I don't need to worry about that. Well, if you were an evil psychopath, you'd want everyone to say that because then no one's going to resist you. And we've got to get into that place of saying that if evil is occurring, we can't just sit back and say it's all going to be taken care of. It's being active. But I think the passivity maybe is in not being attached to outcomes. It's like, I'm going to do my best and try to do good, but I can't control the outcome because there's so many cosmic forces and I'm just one person, but I maybe could have a big impact.

I just can't control what that's going to be. Regardless of all that, I'm going to give it 100%. Yeah, that's beautifully stated. That thing has kept me sane in insane moments in the last two and a half years, the serenity prayer. Like really, really focusing on the things that I'm in control of and not worrying about the things that are without my control. And they put the whole thing, including their life off to the side is out of control. And then there are other people that think it's all within their control and they go as hard as they can, you know, to the paint, uh, think that they're going to try to fix everything. And that's, that's a weight none of us can carry alone, right? We can't, we can't, uh, to use the Lord of the ring analogy, anyone who puts the ring on is going to be consumed by the ring. We have to hold this as a collective and that's the way we move forward. So brother, it's been awesome having you back on the podcast. I am thrilled every time you come out with something, I'm overjoyed. I can't wait

to see what you come up with next. And I'm really excited. Hopefully this year, if definitely not, if not this year, for sure next year, we'll get you out to a fit for service event as a speaker. And I love what you're doing. Where can people get ahold of you? And of course, we'll link to every one of your books in the show notes as well. Kyle, first, I want to thank you for all your support. I really, truly appreciate it. And thank you for all the work you do and the courage it takes to talk about these topics. I appreciate that you use your platform for this. The way to reach me is on markgober.com, M-A-R-K-G-O-B-E-R.com, which has all of my info.

All of my books, there are five of them now. They're on Amazon in hard copy, Kindle, and Audible. Although the end to the upside down reset will be available on Audible February 7th. Cool. Hell yeah. I chew through Audible, so I'm going to get that on Audible as well.

Awesome. Beautiful. Thank you so much, brother. And we'll do it again as soon as, as soon as, uh, as soon as we can. Awesome. I really appreciate it. Thank you.