Kyle Kingsbury Podcast - #294 EZ Water and Easy Health w/ Dr Gerald Pollack

Episode Date: March 15, 2023

Jerry Pollack is a scientist recognized worldwide as a dynamic speaker and author, whose passion lies in plumbing the depths of natural truths.​ He received the 1st Emoto Peace Prize and is a recipient of the University of Washington's highest honor, the Annual Faculty Lecturer Award. He is founding Editor-in-Chief of the research journal WATER and Director of the Institute for Venture Science. Dr. Pollack's (award-winning) books include:The Fourth Phase of Water(2013), and Cells, Gels and the Engines of Life(2001). Dr Pollack also have two more books coming out which he touches on, so listen to the end and get ready for round two yall!   ORGANIFI GIVEAWAY Keep those reviews coming in! Please drop a dope review and include your IG/Twitter handle and we’ll get together for some Organifi even faster moving forward. Permaculture 101!! Come see us at the ranch in Lockhart! We’re having our first ever educational gathering March 31 - April 2. Limited tickets available, so head to Permaculture 101 w/ Gardeners of Eden and get your tickets fam!   Connect with Dr Pollack: Website: The Pollack Lab - Institute for Venture Sciences  Facebook: Professor Gerald Pollack  Sponsors: Organifi Go to organifi.com/kkp to get my favorite way to easily get the most potent blend of high vibration fruits, veggies and other goodies into your diet! Click that link and use code “KKP” at checkout for 20% off your order! Desnuda Organic Tequila Sometimes being fully optimized entails cutting loose with some close homies. We have just the sponsor for that occasion. Head over to www.desnudatequila.com for the tippy toppest shelf tequila in the game. Use Code “KKP” for 15% off all purchases!!  Bioptimizers To get the ’Magnesium Breakthrough‘ deal exclusively for fans of the podcast, click the link below and use code “KINGSBU10” for an additional 10% off. magbreakthrough.com/kingsbu  PaleoValley Some of the best and highest quality goodies I personally get into are available at paleovalley.com, punch in code “KYLE” at checkout and get 15% off everything!   To Work With Kyle Kingsbury Podcast   Connect with Kyle: Fit For Service Academy App: Fit For Service Academy  Instagram: @livingwiththekingsburys   Odysee: odysee.com/@KyleKingsburypod  Youtube: Kyle Kingbury Podcast  Kyles website: www.kingsbu.com  Zion Node: https://getzion.com/ > Enter PubKey  >PubKey: YXykqSCaSTZNMy2pZI2o6RNIN0YDtHgvarhy18dFOU25_asVcBSiu691v4zM6bkLDHtzQB2PJC4AJA7BF19HVWUi7fmQ   Like and subscribe to the podcast anywhere you can find podcasts. Leave a 5-star review and let me know what resonates or doesn’t.

Welcome back to the show, everybody. We have an awesome guest that I first learned about six years ago, somewhere around there. Dr. Gerald Pollack was on the Ben Greenfield podcast, and he is a professor out of University of Washington, who is an author as well, and is changing our understanding of water. And he's come on the show to really talk about what that means, what his new understandings are. He is the author of more than one book. He's got a couple on the way, so we are super excited to get him back on the podcast, but he's best known for the fourth phase of water, which is really a deep dive into what he calls easy water or exclusionary zone water, and is also known as structured water. So we've heard a lot about this lately.

We really want to take the deep dive into this, and I really wanted to take the deep dive into this since hearing him back in the day. But now, obviously, in the farming game and different things and continuing on the health and wellness path, it was perfect timing. So I'm super excited to have Dr. Pollack on the show today. He will come back.

He offers a lot of cool stuff on the deep dive of water, ways to enhance our body's own structure. They're very simple. Many of them are free and completely cost-effective. It's just a matter of doing it, right? It's just not always the easiest thing to do. But the techniques that he offers are phenomenal and easy to access for everybody.

So I'm super excited to share this podcast with you guys. There's a number of ways you can support this podcast. First and foremost, just share it with somebody that you know is interested in the topic. Most people, when they hear this and they hear how easy it is to get your body to structure itself and what that's actually doing and creating more energy within the body is pretty fucking phenomenal. And so you're going to want to share this with people that have any type of health and wellness interest. Also leave us a five-star rating with one or two ways the show's helped you out in life. Our homies at Organifi are still going to hook you guys up. They're

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not cooked, but warm. I'll warm up some raw milk from Jersey cows and I'll mix it in with a little hand whisker. And it's hot cocoa. It's the greatest thing on earth. My kids love it. Their hair's growing super fast. Mine is on the side of my head in the back, but not on top. And it's just awesome. I know it's one of the best

ways to cover the bases to make sure that I'm getting enough collagen in my body. And as you know, your body's going to take about 20 to 30 grams of other protein to make its own collagen. If you're supplementing with good, high quality bone broth or bone broth protein, now your body doesn't have to make that conversion. It's making easier. And so the other protein sources that I'm getting in my body can be used for muscular recovery and things of that nature. Check it all out, paleovalley.com. That's P-A-L-E-O-V-A-L-L-E-Y.com. And use code Kyle, K-Y-L-E, for 15% off everything in the store. And without further ado, Dr. Gerald Pollack. Dr. Gerald Pollack, welcome to the podcast. Oh, thanks so much.

I appreciate the invitation. I'm happy to talk with you. Yeah, as I mentioned before the podcast, I think I first heard you on the Ben Greenfield Show some years ago and really blew my mind. Obviously, Ben is a buddy of mine in that he's an athlete, he's a biohacker, he's into the one foot in ancestral living, one foot in the miracle of modern science. And his show has turned me on to quite a few great people. You've written The Fourth Phase of Water. You had one before that. What was the name of that one? It was called Cells, Gels, and the Engines of Life. Cells, Gels, and the Engines of Life. I love that. Yeah, it's a cool title. Very cool. Well, let's dive in. Some people have heard of The Fourth Phase of Water and likely because of Ben's work, but haven't necessarily understood what Easy Water is or any of these things.

So I'd love for you to break down your work as a professor. What got you into water? So we can backtrack before we dive into fourth phase of water and Easy Water. Where is your track life going up? I first, you might say, stepped into the water or into studies of water a couple of decades ago. We had been studying the contraction of muscles at the molecular level, trying to figure out how the contractile proteins interacted with each other to produce motion and force. It had been a passion of mine.

And I invited a Hungarian guy to come to my lab and work. He did structural work in muscle. And coming from the airport, driving from the airport to my home, where he and his wife were staying for a few days, he said, you know, there's a conference in Hungary and the conference is organized to commemorate the life of a famous biophysicist whose areas were water and muzzle. Could you come maybe and present your work on muscle? So, of course, I said, yes, why not? And I went to Hungary.

And there, my presentation was, I think, pretty well received. But for me, the take-home message was more what I experienced at the meeting. At the meeting, the meeting was dominated by one guy. His name is Gilbert Ling. And I'd heard of Ling before. And mixed sentiments about the kinds of things he did. So I met Gilbert and I listened to his presentation. He was talking about water. He was talking about structured water.

I'd heard the term before, but I really didn't know a whole lot about it. So he made his presentation and I was really deeply impressed. I was impressed not only by him and his presentation, but by the dozen or so other people who were in attendance of the meeting and who presented evidence to support the views of Gilbert Ling. Not that Gilbert Ling didn't have evidence, but I was impressed by a whole group of people who had evidence to support the idea that in biology, in the cells, that water was not this liquid water that I like to drink on occasion, maybe not enough. But the molecules were organized, you know, like soldiers at attention. And he claimed that

all cells are filled with this kind of so-called structured water. I was impressed, I must tell you. I decided that, you know, I'm easily impressed. So I decided to check myself out with a few students in my laboratory. And I gave them one of Gilbert's books. I forget the title, which one, but by that time he'd written approximately four books. I think there were seven before he passed a few years back. And they read the book and they came back to me and their responses were pretty uniform. They said, this is really interesting. And if it's right, it means that essentially all of biology is wrong. Why was all of biology wrong? Well, biology is based on the notion,

not the evidence, the notion that water is merely the background carrier of the more important molecules of life. In other words, the water in the cell doesn't really do anything. It just sits there dissolving proteins and dissolving nucleic acids and whatever. And all the biology is built on that premise.

If that premise is wrong, then much of biology needs to be reconsidered. It seemed pretty important. And so I then, you know, I had a bit of money from the National Institutes of Health to continue to study muscle contraction. And I decided this is too important to let go. And so I diverted that money to some beginning studies of water because I was really curious about it. And I was convinced by that time that Gilbert had something really important to say.

You know, Gilbert was just, it was no ordinary scientist. Gilbert came from China. He came in 1948. So after the war, the Chinese government decided to send a cohort of some of their most promising young scientists to study in the US. And there were three of them. There was a physicist, there was a chemist,

and there was a biologist, Gilbert being the biologist. Well, the physicist went on to win a Nobel Prize. The chemist went on to win a Nobel Prize. And Gilbert maybe should have won two Nobel Prizes because of all of his monumental contributions. But he was controversial and he was passed over. So anyway, that's a long story about how we entered the field of water. And the first thing I did was to write the book that you mentioned, Cells, Gels, and the Engines of water. And the first thing I did was to write the book that you mentioned, Cells, Gels, and the Engines of Life.

And the book was meant to convey to, I wouldn't say a lay audience, but an audience of people who are not necessarily experts in the field of water or so-called structured water. And I think I did reasonably well, but the book received controversial kinds of reviews. Some reviews said, oh, this is just more of Gilbert Ling and we all know that Gilbert Ling is a crackpot, so just forget it. Pay no attention to this book. On the other hand, there were other reviews, and the one that I remember the most is from a prominent Harvard cell biologist. And of course, if it's Harvard,

you have to take it seriously, right? This is a 304-page preface to the future of cell biology. And that one I liked. So anyway, that was the first book. The second is pretty uniformly popular. And that's where we started. And then we began to do experiments. So I don't want to dwell on the origins too long, but that's how we started. No, that's fantastic. It paints a picture in most of my podcasts. I usually want to get,

you know, how did people, what was life like growing up and a whole bunch of background, but understanding our time is limited. You know, I appreciate us diving into the past there for a moment. Explain the layout of what your discovery was like with Easy Water and the fourth phase of water so people have an idea and concept of what we're about to dive into before we talk about some of the science and experiments you've been running. Well, yeah. So in terms of generalities, just as Gilbert was mentioning, it's a kind of water that has structure to it. It's not an ordinary water like this one.

The molecules are bouncing around. They're randomly oriented and they're bouncing at a furious rate. At this kind of water, that the water molecules were lined up like soldiers at attention, is not, we believe, not correct. And there are many reasons we came to. And it's too bad because Gilbert was a friend and you don't like to challenge friends and suggest that their idea is not correct, but we couldn't help it. So let me explain. The first thing is that Gilbert was thinking of the water inside the cell as like a liquid crystal. When you think of liquid crystals, you kind of know what crystals are.

The atoms are organized in a very regular way. And liquid crystals are pretty much the same except that they flow. They tend to flow. They're usually pretty viscous kinds of entities. They flow. So one of the reasons why we eventually had to reject the idea, well, let me back up a step. In Gilbert's concept, it's a liquid crystal, and crystals, as many people know, tend to exclude impurities, right?

So think about ice, you know, ice begins with water. And if the water has some impurities in it, as the ice forms, the impurities are typically excluded in order to achieve pure crystal because the crystal can't be pure if it has impurities in it. So that's how you get pure ice. And, you know And some people recognize the glacial moraine at the foot of the glacier that forms as the water freezes into glaciers. And

that's a good example of a crystal forming and excluding, basically excluding everything that had been in the water. So we began looking for an experimental preparation in which particles or molecules are excluded. That was the premise that we started with. And we came upon the preparation surprisingly easily by dint of good fortune. We took a gel, we put it in the chamber, and we added water, and then we added particles to it. And we were looking for the possibility that we could find a region maybe next to the gel that tended to exclude those particles.

And we found it very quickly. We found a zone that was next to the surface of the gel that built over time. By time, I'm talking about five or 10 minutes. And as it grew right next to the gel surface, it progressively excluded these little particles that we had in the water. So we were wondering, you know, is it possible that this region that was sitting next to the gel could be a region of water structure like Gilbert found? And many experiments later said, yes, this water is completely different

from ordinary water. And that's why we called it fourth phase water. But in the time before that, we began calling it an exclusion zone because it was a zone in the water that excluded particles. It was a suggestion of an Australian colleague. And, you know, in retrospect, it doesn't really make good sense because the water that's in

the exclusion was just one manifestation of what we found. So by calling it exclusion zone, it's EZ or easy to remember, works in the US, not in Europe, or it's EZ, but easy to remember. So it kind of stuck. But I think more officially, if we want to say officially, we call it fourth phase of water. But now one of the early studies that we did was to check with an electrode to see if this zone, which you could almost see with your naked eye, but we usually use a microscope. It's pretty big. You know, it's like half a millimeter. Often we've seen even larger. And so the exclusion zone of of water so we stuck uh electrodes in to see

whether they had any charge we use electrodes of micro electrodes which parenthetically were were invented by the same gilbert ling and used very widely to measure the electro electrical potential inside cells. You know, you can stick it in and don't destroy the cell. It's sort of like a colleague talked about when you use big electrodes, it's like, as he put it, shoving a telephone pole up your rear end and expecting you to be normal. I think it's a nice colorful explanation. You got a good visual of that. Yeah. These are really tiny. You can stick it in the cell and pull it out and then no problem.

Anyway, we use those electrodes and we found that typically this zone is negatively charged and the region beyond the zone, the region of ordinary liquid water, was positively charged. And the sum had to be zero because the sum has to equal water, which is neutral. We started with water. And so the plus and minus charges, if they're separated, has to go somewhere and both have to go somewhere. So it's like a battery where you've got a negatively charged EZ and positively charged region beyond that. So this is really important because being like a battery, it contains potential energy. And the question is, well, if this stuff is inside your body,

is the potential energy just thrown away or is it actually used for something? And the evidence so far is that it's indeed used for something, that the cells are filled with this kind of water. And this water has a substantial amount of potential energy, which might or might not be used by the body. And we have some examples of situations where we think it is used by the body. And I'm happy to talk about that at any time. But just to summarize, well, one more thing I want to discuss. But to summarize, the exclusion zone of fourth phase water sits next to various surfaces, hydrophilic water loving surfaces, not hydrophobic like Teflon, only hydrophilic. And it builds substantially. The structure is actually a sheet-like structure, sheets, hexagonal sheets of hydrogens and oxygens that build one sheet at a time.

So each sheet serves as a template for the growth of the next sheet. And you can have a number of sheets we've seen can total close to a million of them under the right circumstances. So it's not just a laboratory curiosity, but it's something substantial. And as I said, it fills your cell. So just one more consideration is, well, how does this battery get charged? Any kind of battery needs charge. And my laptop would not be working if we're not recharged, and your cell phone would not be working, etc. So where does the charge come from?

And it turns out that it comes from a few sources, the main one being infrared light. And we learned of this not because of any particular brilliance on our part, but because I was smart enough to attract undergraduates who are open-minded and curious and they often do what you don't expect them to do. So this one undergraduate student sitting at the bench with a chamber where he could see. We used a surface, not of a gel this time, but of napheon, which is a hydrophilic polymer.

And he was watching the exclusion zone grow next to this service and there was a lamp sitting next to him. Out of curiosity, he took the lamp, shined it on the chamber and the region of the chamber that was lit, illuminated by the lamp, the exclusion zone grew. It grew by a lot. So he called me in and I took a look and I was thinking, wow, this is amazing, if true. And we quickly confirmed that it was true. And we checked to see which wavelengths

of light, you know, you have an incandescent bulb, which was sitting there and it projects many wavelengths. So we tried, first we tried ultraviolet light, no expansion of the EZ. We tried visible light, longer wavelengths, and we saw just a very minimal expansion, especially toward the reds, we found them. And the shorter wavelength end of the spectrum near the ultraviolet, nothing. And then we went on to infrared. And boy, gangbusters. It was amazing. Infrared, a little bit of infrared light from an LED,

from a light-emitting diode, could expand the exclusion zone by 10 times. Really, really powerful. Yeah, so we checked, of course, to see which wavelengths of infrared were important, and it turned out to be basically about three microns wavelength. Would that be near, mid, or far? Well, it depends on who you speak to because the boundary is not near because near are wavelengths. So the visible spectrum ends at around 800 nanometers or 0.8 micrometers. And from 0.8 micrometers on, I don't know what the usual limit is, but that's near infrared.

And I think this is somewhere between middle and far infrared. But anyway, it's three micrometers is the strongest. But other wavelengths are really powerful as well, not just three micrometers. But three micrometers is what water likes to absorb the most. The absorption spectrum shows that is the main absorption wavelength. And so it turns out that the wavelength that's absorbed by the water most profoundly is the same wavelength that builds the EZ most profoundly. So in other words, you might say that this absorbed energy has a use, a purpose. It recharges the battery. So now the question that arises, maybe I'm going too far,

but where do you get this kind of energy? You know, is it around in the environment or well yes it is so if you think of infrared infrared light you think about many people think about you look into the toaster when when it's turned on you can see the glowing or an oven you can see the glowing, orange glowing coils. And many of us will say, oh yeah, well, that's infrared energy. The energy is radiated and it feels warm. And so it's generating infrared energy. That's correct. However, infrared energy is all around us in abundance.

And the way you can test this, the way you can check is to turn off all the lights. For example, all the lights in your studio. You can't see anything. Your cell phone can't get an image. If you had a camera with, instead of an ordinary sensor that senses a visible light, if you had one that senses infrared light, you get a beautiful image of everything in your room, of course, including yourself. And because they're all generating infrared energy. And so the military has, of course, taken advantage of this opportunity

and the infrared cameras are used as nightlights. And they're also around in surveillance cameras need to see at night. So in other words, the energy that's required for buildup of EZ is around everywhere. And I should mention the sun because the sun is the ultimate source of infrared energy. When you feel warm, that's coming from the infrared energy that the sun generates. And measurements have shown that roughly half of the energy that comes from the sun is in the infrared region. That's why you feel warm. So because this infrared energy is all around us,

it means that easy water or fourth phase water exists all around us. And if you were to add more infrared energy, like from a lamp or something, then fourth phase or easy water would grow. And that has been amply demonstrated. Okay. So I think I should stop there because I've given you a reasonable picture of what fourth phase easy water is. And I'm happy to expand on that. Yeah. So first let me just, I should have mentioned this before we started due to the nature of, of lag online.

I absolutely love just tossing softballs and letting you run with it. If you wanted to give an hour and a half long lecture, I would be, I would just be sitting here completely pleased. So don't, don't ever feel, don't ever hesitate on, on how long winded an answer might be because it's perfect for this type of interview. Okay. Thank you. I appreciate it.

Yeah, absolutely. And I'm learning here right now with the crew. Fantastic. So one of the things as you're talking about the exclusion zone, if infrared light is helping that grow, and to my knowledge, infrared light is helping mitochondrial function and a number of other things. And we'll dive into energy because this was a big reason I wanted to have you on as it pertains to ATP versus as it pertains to the exclusion zone in this battery that's creating. Talk about how the size of the exclusion zone affects the effectiveness of the battery and what that battery might be doing within the body. Okay. Let me respond to the very last phrase in your question. And then if I don't completely answer, please bring me back on track because I have a tendency to wander. So inside the cell, the inside of the cell is negatively charged. This has been well known for close to 100 years.

If you stick an electrode into the cell, you measure negative electric potential on the order of 50 to 100 millivolts relative to the outside of the cell. The inside is negative. What's the reason the outside of the cell. So inside is negative. What's the reason the inside of the cell is negative? Well, the standard arguments, which I believe are wrong, and I'll explain in a bit why, are that the membrane of the cell has channels and pumps. And through these myriad channels and pumps. And through these myriad channels and pumps, the cell is able to pump in and out various ions. And they can either exit or enter the cell

through ion-specific channels. That's a theory that's well-developed and many groups, research groups are looking into it. And I believe it's wrong. And I've written about it in various publications. And I'll just say one, I present one argument. That is, the inside of the cell is like a gel. This is pretty well known. In fact, a book was written on it more than 50 years ago about the gel-like nature of the cell.

And I don't think there's any controversy about that. So you stick an electrode into the cell whose interior is gel-like and you get minus 50 millivolts relative to the outside. You stick the same electrode into a gel, which is just like the inside of the cell, but it has no membrane and therefore no pumps, no channels, and you get the same result. So there's only one argument. There are multiple arguments. It looks as though the membrane, the pumps, and the channels have nothing to do with the negative electrical potential. But since we know that the cell is filled with EZ water and the EZ water is negatively charged, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to conclude that maybe the negative charge is coming from the negatively charged EZ water that fills the cell. There are other arguments that I said, I don't want to take the time to detail them. So it means that the cell is full of negative charges from the EZ water.

It almost doesn't matter where the negative charges come from, but I believe it comes from EZ water. The reason I say it doesn't matter is that negative charges repel one another. So if you try to squeeze a lot of negative charges together, all they want to do is get away as far as they can from one another. You know, very, very simple repulsion. Well, that repulsion amounts to potential energy because you have a state of high potential energy when all of those negatives are squeezed together and they want to get away. And so what's demonstrated in the cells, gels, and the energies of life book is that the getting away of those negative charges is energy that can be used by the cell.

And that particular book describes how the water in the cell, the phase transition, so to speak, in the water from organized structured water to ordinary liquid water amounts to potential energy that the cell is able to use. And it's used, for example, in the muscle cell. What transitions when the muscle transitions from relaxed to activated is not just the proteins, but the water and the proteins. And this is known as a phase change. It's well known in chemistry. And that phase change is what creates the contraction. And the same in, say, a secretory cell. In order to secrete, what happens is that it's the proteins and the water that undergo a transition.

And the cell secretes. And when it's all over, the water and the proteins go back to their original state. So it's a cycle. And the critical in the cycle is the water, which undergoes a transition. So all of this is potential energy. The fact that the EZ is charged and this charge is then dissipated

as the cell undergoes whatever action it undergoes. And then in order to revert back to the initial condition, you have to put in energy from outside. So the question that, if I've been at least a little bit clear, the question that arises is, well, okay, so in theory, the cell can use this mechanism to provide energy. And the question is, does it? How much it does?

And whatever. So all of us have learned that the energy of the cell comes through ATP. And perhaps that's correct. May well be correct. But I have to remind you that we need to look carefully at evidence. has a high energy phosphate bond and the energy of the cell is mediated through energy delivered by that high energy phosphate bond. How exactly it does it has never been really clear.

That's not what I want to mention. What I want to mention is something to which I was alerted by the same Gilbert Ling in his website, which last I saw still exists, gilbertling.org, even past his passing. And he brings up an issue that almost nobody knows about. That is, one year after this famous report or suggestion about the high energy bond of ATP, another prominent group reported that, no, no, no, this first group is wrong. They made a simple arithmetic error.

There was no such thing as a high energy phosphate bond. This has never been followed up as far as I know and as far as Gilbert Ling knew. Maybe no surprise. I'm not sure. So you have two groups, and one said, yes, our energy comes from a high-energy phosphate bond, and the other group said, no, you screwed up. You made an arithmetic error. There's no such thing as a high energy phosphate bond. I don't know which one is correct, but I do know that this is the sort of issue that demands follow-up because if ATP, if indeed the second group is correct, then we need to look for

another source of energy. So it's that important. Well, there is another source of energy, and that is the potential energy that I've been talking about. So there are three possibilities. One is that, yeah, our energy comes from ATP, period. The second is there's some sharing of energy sources, some coming from ATP hydrolysis and the other coming from this electrical potential energy that I talked about. Or a common 31 is a combination of the two. And we don't know what the correct answer is. I just want to emphasize that the fourth phase of water, this negative charge, is potential energy. And if we're right in all that I've been asserting,

then usually nature doesn't waste anything. And so if it's available, there's a good chance that nature is actually using it. So there's precedent for water being involved in energetics, and the precedent comes from green plants. They take in sunlight. It's light. It's the first step in a photosynthesis is light. I should say the first step is with incoming light, the water molecule is split into OH minus and H plus. That's 100% efficient. And then there are many other steps, but that first step is pretty much what we've discovered

in maybe more generic form. And so there is precedent for the idea that energy can come pretty much directly from light. And we're pursuing this vigorously to find out where the energy comes from. When you think about the people who don't eat, And there have been quite a few. I think they're called breatharians or something like this. Yes, I've watched a couple documentaries on that. Yeah, yeah.

You've seen maybe the same documentaries that I've seen. There's an Austrian guy, I forget his name. He produced a documentary in which some 20 people were interviewed, people who don't eat for either for a period of a week, a month, or indefinitely. Like the guy from India who claimed 65 years of not eating anything. And he was investigated by a group of physicians,

including pulmonologists, cardiologists, urologists, all the ologists that you can think of. And they confirmed that, yeah, for a period of a couple of weeks in which he was locked into a hospital room, monitored vigorously and continuously, didn't eat anything. And the guy had enormous energy afterward, run up the stairs.

So yeah, what's the guy? Strauberger is the producer's name. Strauberger from Austria. It's a great, great, great film. I highly recommend it. But where do they get their energy? So if they don't eat, if they don't get energy from food and the food is then converted into ATP eventually, but no food, where do they get their energy? And a possibility is indeed light or some kind of energy coming from the cosmos. And many of these people are spiritual or people who pray and such.

And it's possible that they have more of a tendency to take in or a tendency to take in more of this kind of cosmic energy than the rest of us. It's possible that they get their energy from light. Okay, so I think I've answered your question, but if I haven't answered your question, please refresh me or tickle me or do as you wish. I love that. And yeah, it's funny. I was thinking of that documentary right as you were bringing it up because I've done a bit of sun gazing just for the influence on circadian rhythm that it has and understanding that in the first, at least the first 20 to 30 minutes of sunrise and the last 20 to 30 minutes of sunset, that it is something where you can look into the sun and that reset actually

has a palpable feeling. It shifts my neurochemistry. It's something that actually changes my day. If I can watch the sunrise, there's not a lot of things that are going to piss me off during that day. It's like checking the box on making my bed. It's a very, very good feeling. And understanding how a lot of what we've been taught and what I've been gravitating towards from an optimization standpoint or a longevity standpoint is how to enhance the mitochondria, right? These are the little organelles that create all the energy in our system. So if what you're saying is true and the research points to this, that we actually have a second mode of which we can increase energy on a holistic level, right? And that makes a great big difference in how we approach longevity,

how we approach health, how we approach performance. And so it's very fascinating to me. And light influencing that, right? Like if this easy stack can grow from the influence of red light, that could be one of the mechanisms that I'm experiencing when I'm staring at the sun first thing in the morning or right before the sun sets. Yeah, yeah, for sure.

Absolutely. And, you know, there's still sunrise and sunset where the sun looks red. It's probably, it's easy to stare at because it's missing a lot of the other wavelengths. And yet it's probably got not only red, but infrared energy also. And any infrared that you absorb

is going to be building EZ water. And EZ water is a necessary, should we say, necessary condition or step in your cell's activity because as I tried to point out earlier, the cell undergoes a phase transition, which starts with abundant EZ water inside the cell. And if you're deficient in EZ,

your cell is not going to work in the proper way and you have some deficit. It could be minor, it could be major. And if you then expose yourself or expose the right areas to infrared, it's going to build up that EZ water and your function is going to be restored. And that's why the sauna works so well, because it's basically heat, which is essentially not exactly the same, but approximately the same as infrared energy. So you're exposing your entire body to infrared energy,

and the infrared energy builds EZ, and whatever organs, organelles, whatever were deficient in EZ become restored with EZ. In the case of mitochondria, the structure of mitochondria is just ideal for the buildup of EZ. So it may not be, the mitochondrial mechanism may be no different from what occurs in the rest of the cell, but maybe just more concentrated and higher ability to create energy. The mitochondrial structure contains membranes, many membranes inside the organelle.

And these membranes can build easy water. And indeed, measurements show that the inside of the mitochondria is filled with negative charge. So a possibility, and I think a likely possibility, is that the way the mitochondria generate energy is simply by building EZ in a concentrated way. And then the rest of the cell can take advantage of this buildup. So yeah, mitochondria are really important, and the negative charge inside the cell is also extremely important in the energetics of the cell.

More studies are needed, especially quantitative studies, but I think what you mentioned is absolutely critically important. Well, thank you. Yeah. I guess I'm curious, you know, you mentioned sauna and sunlight. What are some of the other ways that we can enhance? Because I've heard you talking in the past about, you know, one circumstance, you know, and it's not maybe not direct correlation, but when you look at cancer cells, you see they have less EZ, right? When we're looking at healthy cells that are producing energy, they're going to have more EZ. So what are the ways in which someone can become depleted and what are the ways that we can counter that and start to grow EZ and actually structure our water in our cells? Okay, you've touched on a whole bunch of different things. And yeah, cancer cells. So yeah, it's true that measurements in cancer

cells show that the electrical potential inside the cancer cell, instead of being somewhere like minus 50 to a minus 100, which is typical of many cells, most cells in our body, cells that are cancerous, the electrical potential, measured electrical potential is something on the order of 15 millivolts or something like that. Now, we think, we meaning I, some of my colleagues, that the electrical potential inside the cell comes from the easy water so if the magnitude of

that potential is really small it means you don't have much easy water so and if you look at cancer cells many of them are pretty much undifferentiated they don't have as many of the proteins that would create easy water buildup so um so you don't have a lot of easy water inside the cancer cells. What does that mean? Well, in order for cells to divide, the cell needs to be activated in some way. And when a cell is activated, the electrical potential will usually go from minus whatever it is, minus 50, minus 100 to near zero. And then the cell knows that, oh, you know, I'm an activated cell.

And the cell may begin to divide. And so in the case of cancer cells with very low electrical potential near zero, the cell says, hey, you know, I'm activated. I should divide. And it divides. And then we have a continuous division and we have cancer. We have cancer cells that grow and grow very rapidly because they keep dividing. So if I were, this is a bit beyond my field,

but if I were looking for a mechanism of cancer, I would look right at the cell level. And I'd look at the tendency to divide. I'd look at the electrical potential. Because I think this is a possible mechanistic route to understanding cancer. As far as I know, there's nobody who's doing this. Almost everybody is focused on genetics and oncogenes and what have you. And so far, the war on cancer, which has gone on now for 50 years, initiated by President Nixon, the war has not been won. And we're still in a situation

where so many people are afflicted with cancer. So maybe this deviates from your question, but if I were running the National Institutes of Health and funding cancer research at, I think, $10 billion a year or $20 billion a year, I'd change focus because so many years of focusing on genomics has not produced the desired effect. I think the NIH should open to the possibility of looking into other mechanisms.

And this is a bureaucratic kind of thing. It deviates from the kinds of issues that you're raising in this podcast. But if you knock your head against the wall and it hurts, you don't keep knocking your head against the wall. So you try something different. I think that's where we are right now. And so I don't remember your initial question. So that's perfect. You took a deep dive on cancer and yeah, Richard Nixon, I'm sure, did a lot of good things. Thankfully, I wasn't around for, but I'm still feeling the ramifications of.

But I will say, one of the questions that I wanted to take it towards as we're now in the last quarter here of the podcast is, are there ways where we know we're going to deplete easy water in our body? You know, what are some of the practices that screw us over? And then what are the ways in which we can counteract that? There's a lot of things in the modern world from glyphosate to you name it. I'm sure Ben listed a whole host of things that he's trying to counter in his practices. And I'm just wondering where there are common pitfalls that could drop our easy water, and then what are some of the ways in which we enhance that to make sure that we're optimizing our bodies and our holistic selves? Well, you're right first in mentioning glyphosate. So we did experiments on glyphosate and published them.

And what we did is we set up an experiment where we could see an exclusion zone in a chamber. And we added glyphosate. And we added it in various quantities ranging from near zero to substantial amounts. And at every, essentially every level, it inhibited the growth of EZ water. So in other words, we reduced the concentration of glyphosate to vanishingly small. And then, of course, if it gets small enough, it has no effect. But even at very low concentrations, it had some effect. And as you increase the concentration, the effect became progressively more profound.

So basically, glyphosate is causing dehydration because the EZ water is essentially the hydration of a cell. So that seems to be what glyphosate does. And it's said to kill weeds, but it may also kill us or certainly impair us by depleting hydration of the cell. So on the other hand, the converse of that, the ways to build easy water, which we tested in similar ways, is by adding varying concentrations of agents, agents that have been used since Ayurvedic times and by the ancient Chinese. And they knew, of course, they were interested in promoting health or figuring out how to stay healthy. And so we tested some of those agents. And turmeric is a good example of it. Basil, holy basil is another one. And ghee, clarified butter.

And we tested a whole bunch of those. And every one of them increased the size of the EZ in concentrations that you might be expected to have in your body. So our conclusion from that is, if cells need to be filled with EZ to work properly, to have it in your body. So our conclusion from that is, you know, if cells need to be filled with EZ to work properly, if you take these agents, pretty much any one of them, they should enhance the growth of EZ

and therefore restore your body, the cells in your body to their pristine state. And so that's method number one is to use these agents. Method number two is drink a lot of water because you drink the water, some of that water, not all, some of it gets peed out, but some of it gets converted into easy water because the surfaces are there,

the hydrophilic surfaces that are necessary, and because the energy is there coming from outside, as I mentioned earlier, and also your metabolism generates heat, and heat is associated with EZ. So that's a way of increasing the easy in your body. Another method is so-called juicing. And you know about it, but I'm not sure that your listeners know fully, but that's going into your backyard and harvesting some of the leaves from the freshly grown plants

and squeezing the water out of them or the juice out of them, squeezing them to death. And there are machines that you can buy that do that very effectively. So you take the water, the liquid from the plant and maybe add a little bit of pleasant flavoring so that it's tolerable and drink it. And so what are you drinking? You're drinking the water that filled these freshly grown cells. And that water is full of EZ, just like our cells are full of EZ water. So you're basically, by doing that, you're bypassing the step of having your body convert liquid water into easy water. So you should gain a lot more easy water by so doing. And in my experience, this is informal experience speaking to various

health providers, that's one of the easiest methods that show efficacy in improving general health. It's easy, you know, if you've got a backyard and you grow vegetables and such, and it's effective because the claim, again, this is anecdotal. I don't know. There may be published material on it, but I'm not sure. And the anecdotal reports are, this is extremely effective. That patient's come back a few months later and they've done the juicing and whatever was afflicting them is either reduced or gone. So that's an easy one. Okay. What else?

Um, um, I mentioned that the sauna, a good way you're receiving infrared energy, heaps of infrared energy, whether it's dry sauna or wet sauna, the tired, depressed, whatever, and coming out feeling vibrant. Yeah, it's the best. Yeah, it can be quite amazing. And so I've shared with you the reason why I think it works, that infrared energy building easy in our brain, for example. And then another one is walking barefoot on the grass or on the beach near the water. So what does that do?

So-called grounding or earthing. Well, it has to do with the fact that the earth is not neutral. We've grown learning that the earth is neutral. I studied electrical engineering for my undergraduate work and not one professor ever told me that when you stick the plug into the receptacle on the wall, that that third prong was connecting with anything different from zero electrical potential. In other words, neutrality. It's not true. And I learned that it was not true first from a Russian colleague who was working in my lab, and he was talking about the electric field of the earth.

I said, Andre, you're talking about magnetic field, right? I never heard of electric field. No, no, I'm talking about electric field. Don't you know that the earth is negative and the ionosphere up there is positive, it's like a capacitor with plus and minus, so you get an electric field and the earth is negatively charged. up there is positive. It's like a capacitor with plus and minus, so you get an electric field,

and the Earth is negatively charged. I couldn't believe what I was hearing from this guy, and I went home. I went to sleep scratching my head, and next morning, one of my students comes in with the lecture notes, the three-volume book now of the famous Nobel laureate, the so-called Einstein of the last half of the 20th century, Richard Feynman. His lectures are read by practically every graduate student in physics because they're clear and he had a sense of humor. And volume two of chapter nine is all about the negative charge of the earth and all about the evidence for the negative charge of the earth.

So what you're doing, if you connect yourself electrically to the earth, is you're connecting yourself to a practically infinite supply of negative charge. What does that do? Well, we found in the laboratory that if we stick two electrodes in water and we pass electrical current near that negative electrode or around that negative electrode, which is

supplying electrons, the ordinary liquid water gets converted to EZ water just by the entry of those electrons. It's profound. And so, yeah, when you connect yourself, the electrons that enter into your body build EZ water, and they do the same thing as I've been discussing. They build EZ water inside your cells, just like we saw in the lab. And that ought to restore health, health to the cells. Whichever cells are deficient in EZ water will no longer be deficient. And again, this kind of electrical connection or so-called earthing or grounding yourself

has been widely acknowledged as being health promoting. And because it's been around for a while, there have been many, many theories about how it works. I think it works by creating easy water. It might be wrong for that, but that's a simple interpretation, but it does work. So I think I've gone through a bunch, but let me just add one more, which is not so easy to implement, but it's really important. And that is hyperbaric oxygen therapy. You know, it's been used now for quite a few years, and it was used initially for the healing of wounds suffered by soldiers.

Nothing could heal the wounds, and someone figured out that putting them into a chamber with high pressure, high oxygen, that is hyperbaric oxygen, the wounds should heal. And they did wonderfully. And since then, various companies that have been putting out the machines have been suggesting with evidence that it's not only good for healing wounds, but many other afflictions. And I myself have been inside and my late wife was inside one of them. So it's basically exposing yourself

to high oxygen and high pressure. We experimented with high oxygen and with high pressure. Each one of those builds easy water. And so when you have the combination of them, it should powerfully build easy water. So that is another, you might say another expedient toward health. When you have the combination of them, it should powerfully build easy water. So that is another, you might say, another expedient toward health. And I think it works through the action of building easy water the same way. So to summarize it, easy water buildup, I think, is a critical agent in promoting health.

And what one needs to do is, you know, in terms of promoting your health, is to experience as many of those as you possibly can. And I bet you do because you look awfully healthy. Well, thank you. Yeah, and most of what you're talking about was free, right? I know hyperbaric may still take a prescription to do the full deal, but mild hyperbarics do not. A lot of chiropractors and different health and wellness professionals that are kind of alternative health and wellness people might have the mild ones that you can just jump into without prescription. And that can be a little bit expensive. But when I fought professionally, I obviously had a

prescription for that and would get into the heavy hyperbarics. And that was just one of the most amazing things to work on TBI. And anytime I'd get dinged up from my career in fighting, that was the thing that would help me heal fastest. So that makes a lot of sense in that working. I have two final questions real quick before I talk about your charity. One, have you looked at human mother's milk or raw dairy milk, if that's structured? Because it's about 97% water in the milk. So I'm wondering if that is structured in the same way that it's structured inside of plants.

It's likely. We haven't tested it, but it's likely to be because the proteins in the milk and other molecules tend to structure the water that's adjacent to it. And yeah, it would be good to look into, but we haven't done that. Okay. So sorry about that. No worries. No worries. I feel great. We found an awesome raw milk, a Jersey cow farm down in Schulenburg, Texas that everyone's drinking it. And we just all feel great. We've gotten a lot better from it. Um, and then, uh, second, you know, I had Mario on from on a Lemma. They've been doing the

structured water devices. He told me that he's's he's looking to partner with you guys in some way shape or form to see how that correlates with easy water if it increases it um what some of the differences are between the two have you guys started that work yet or is that just to be determined it's uh it's maybe in the future but okay we haven't started cool no worries well i'll look forward to having you back on um tell us about your charity, and then you've got another book that's coming out soon. money for this kind of revolutionary sort of science. For example, NIH, most of the people at the NIH who are either administrators or reviewers, water is just, it's nothing. You know, it's a background carrier of the, excuse me, of the molecules of life. Background carrier is not interesting. So it's really difficult to get money from the usual granting organizations. And we were fortunate for quite a

while to have a benefactor who was funding our laboratory. He loved our work. He said, I'm going to fund it. But he ran into some unexpected financial difficulty. And so it cut us off. We have a little bit of money from a foundation, but we really need more. So one charity is our own laboratory. And if anybody out there has done well

and has some enthusiasm for the kinds of things that we do, please contact me. We're really in serious need of funding. And the second is a foundation that we've started. It's called the Institute for Venture Science. And the idea of the Institute is to fund scientific ideas that challenge mainstream ideas that have outlived their usefulness. Because the problem is generic. It's not just about water. Anybody who has a scientific idea that challenges the prevailing idea has real difficulty getting money. And so we take in donations from the outside.

And we are intending to fund people in all areas of science. I'm not talking about water or water only, but throughout all of the sciences. And we, out of more than 200 free proposals, we received, we anointed 15 of them and asked them to write full proposals, and we picked out the top five for funding. And we're waiting, hoping to get funding.

So either that charity or our own laboratory at the university charity would absolutely welcome any input that's possible. Great. Well, I'll get links to both of those charities and include those in the show notes. So it'll be very easy for people to just one click onto both of those and take a look and contribute whatever you can. And I'll send this to my friends with the big bank rolls and see if they can help out. Tell us about the next phase of your career. What are you writing next year? Well, I've written two books, and they're about to be published.

And the limiting factor is not me or my writing. It's my son, who's the artist. And if anybody gets hold of, you can see examples of his art from the second book, The Fourth Phase of Water, whose popularity, by the way, the ratings on Amazon, the 600 plus ratings, are about almost at the same level as Harry Potter. It seems that book has struck an enormous amount of interest. But my son, who illustrated it, he has extraordinary talent, but he's been busy expressing his talent in the remodeling of his home. So I've waited now for three years. And finally, his beginning.

There are two books. The first book deals with the role of electrical charge in nature. We think we understand a lot about the nature that goes on around us. This is even beyond biology. We think we understand what's going on, but we understand that at such a superficial level that if we dig deeper, we run into blockage. For example, gravitation. So gravitation, we know, we've heard that it depends on the two masses that are attracting one another.

Bigger masses attract more than smaller masses. So we think that gravitation has to do expressly with mass. And a lot of things agree with that. However, you go to the next level deeper and say, why do masses attract? And that's where the conversation stops, because nobody understands why masses should attract one another. And so I deal in the book, that's just one of a half a dozen different subjects or more that I deal with. What is the real nature of gravitation? Another one is weather. Nobody understands weather.

And an atmospheric scientist told me that, he kind of whispered to me, hey, you know, you really want to know something. Atmospheric scientists don't understand two features of weather. They don't understand how evaporation occurs, and they don't understand how clouds form. Well, in the book, I start from first principles and build up to hurricanes and tornadoes in four chapters. How do birds fly? So it's another topic. in four chapters. How do birds fly?

So it's another topic. And if I were to ask you to respond to how birds fly, my guess is you'd probably say, oh, they flap their wings. But I can look outside at the eagles. There's an eagle's nest nearby my home where I'm sitting right now. And they often don't flap their wings at all. And they fly perfectly fine without flapping their wings.

So something else is going on and I deal with that, et cetera, et cetera. So all that book needs is some diagrams from my son. He's got most of it done and it'll be published. Next book has to do with the structure of the atom. Most of us presume that everything is settled because the same idea looks like a solar system, modified extensively with subatomic particles and such. We assume, since it's been in the literature for,

we've known that for 100 years, five, six generations, it must be correct. And of course, it's a real challenge to understand about all of those, I think, 60 or so subatomic particles that are now part of the model. And we kind of presume, well, those physicists out there, they're smart. I can't understand all this stuff myself, but there are smart guys out there, men, women, and they must know what they're talking about, so I'll go study something else because they must have it right. So I can present to you three

or so arguments that are at middle school level, nothing sophisticated, that I think will convince you that there's got to be something wrong with what we all have come to believe. First one, nucleus, right? It's sitting at the center of the atom and it's got neutrons and it's got protons,

according to the model. Neutrons are neutral, so we don't need to consider them in the context of what I'm talking about. But the protons are all positive. Now, you know what happens if you try to squeeze a lot of positive charges together. They want to repel. So the nucleus should blow up. Now, the physicists recognize this problem with the model, but, you know, presuming that the model must be correct, there must be a solution to this problem. So the physicists, and maybe I'm exaggerating a bit, but I, you know, I invented a kind of glue to hold it all together, and it's called the strong force. And the strong force is now taken by physicists to be one of the fundamental forces of nature, because without it, and if you assume that that model is correct, without it, the nucleus would blow up, it would explode. So you have to have this force there, but there's no independent evidence for it. It's like a band-aid to cover a gaping wound. That's problem number one.

Problem number two is you learned and I learned in middle school or wherever that plus and minus attract one another, right? So you got a positive nucleus with that special glue to hold it all together, and you've got negative electrons. So, you know, again, back to middle school, the two of them attract each other and the atom should collapse into nothingness. The positive nucleus should draw all those electrons and you've got no atom left. It's unstable. Okay, third point is that most materials are solids. In the periodic table, you find a few liquids and a bunch of gases, but for the most part, perhaps 90% of the elements form solids. So I look at the aluminum of my computer, my laptop, and all the atoms of aluminum stick together.

Now, think about how that can occur. So aluminum, like all the other elements, has electron shells that surround the nucleus. And if you try to stick two of them together, what you have is that one shell of negative electrons meets another shell of negative electrons. How do they stick together? They want to repel each other. Well, there is an argument in the literature for the so-called sharing of electrons. I don't see how that solves the problem. The problem is still that because of those electron shells

that are approaching one another, there's a repulsive force and nothing to keep atoms together. They repel each other. They should all form gases. So if you put those three arguments together, for me, you've got enough justification to reconsider whether the model that we've all accepted is correct. So I go on from there and propose a model that actually was similar to models that were proposed at the time by the most famous chemists.

They rejected this model, the solar system model. They said, it doesn't explain the simplest of chemical reactions. I think they're right. But it was the era, not of chemistry, but the era of physics, early 1900s, when each year a new Nobel Prize for, they went to the physicists, not the chemists. So the chemists lost out and the objections were not seriously considered. And it turns out, I found out only recently, after the book was written, that one of those

chemists proposed the model that's very similar to what I'm proposing. I felt confident by that. So I might be on the right track. I might not be on the right track, but I think it's really time for reconsideration of the most, perhaps most fundamental issue and one of the most fundamental issues in science, what is the structure of the atom? That's the second book, just waiting for some illustrations. I hope it comes out within a year, year and a half or so. So I guess I'll end with that. I love that. Well, and I can certainly appreciate where your son's been at, where we're building the house right now on our farm and running into delay after delay.

So I get the whole remodel deal. Well, hopefully he's on an easy street here and a straight path forward. And we can get these books out soon because I'm really looking forward to getting my hands on them. Well, thanks. I hope so even more than you do. I'm sure you do. Well, thank you so much. My pleasure. Yeah. so even more than you do i'm sure you do well thank you so much my pleasure yeah yeah where

can we'll get all the information for where people can find you and all that stuff and link to it in the show notes and we'll most certainly have you back on after your new books release Thank you. you