Kyle Kingsbury Podcast - #299 Transitions in the Game of Life w/ Joe Hawley

Episode Date: April 19, 2023

Joe Hawley is a mountain of a man. In many ways, he’s a former NFL lineman as well as a stoic straight outta the first century. He’s a Fit For Service OG from 2019 who has taken those tools and now offers transformational experiences primarily for former athletes, but welcomes all seekers. I loved being on his podcast recently, Life Beyond the Game, where he hosts former high level athletes and talks about the transitions they’ve experienced in life. His fellowship of sorts is called The Hart Collective and they specialize in rite of passage experiences stemming from camaraderie, their flagship experience being a river rafting trip.    ORGANIFI GIVEAWAY Keep those reviews coming in! Please drop a dope review and include your IG/Twitter handle and we’ll get together for some Organifi even faster moving forward.   Connect with Joe Website: The Hart Collective  Instagram: @joe.hawley  Podcast: Life Beyond the Game Spotify - Apple     Show Notes: "The Unlikely Peace at Cuchumaquic" -Martin Prechtel  "The Smell of Rain on Dust" -Martin Prechtel  "Not in His Image" -John Lamb Lash  Life Beyond the Game - Kyle Kingsbury Optimizing for Life Apple Spotify   Last Born in the Wilderness #147 Spotify Apple KKP #289 The Many Applications of Structured Water w/ Mario and Analemma Spotify Apple KKP #294 EZ Water and Easy Health w/ Gerald Pollack Spotify Apple       Sponsors: Analemma Coherent Water the science is here to support structured water and these folks have the best and easiest way to get it for yourself anywhere you go. Go to coherent-water.com punch in code “KKP” for 10% off your wand! PaleoValley Some of the best and highest quality goodies I personally get into are available at paleovalley.com, punch in code “KYLE” at checkout and get 15% off everything! Organifi Go to organifi.com/kkp to get my favorite way to easily get the most potent blend of high vibration fruits, veggies and other goodies into your diet! Click that link and use code “KKP” at checkout for 20% off your order! Bioptimizers To get the ’Magnesium Breakthrough‘ deal exclusively for fans of the podcast, click the link below and use code word “KINGSBU10” for an additional 10% off. magbreakthrough.com/kingsbu  To Work With Kyle Kingsbury Podcast   Connect with Kyle: Fit For Service Academy App: Fit For Service App  Instagram: @livingwiththekingsburys - @gardenersofeden.earth  Odysee: odysee.com/@KyleKingsburypod  Youtube: Kyle Kingbury Podcast  Kyles website: www.kingsbu.com - Gardeners of Eden site    Like and subscribe to the podcast anywhere you can find podcasts. Leave a 5-star review and let me know what resonates or doesn’t.

We're back. We're jumping right in. Episode 299. Even though it shows up as like 400 and change, that's because I didn't start the On It podcast. I came in a little bit late to the game. And rather than erasing them all, I think we archived them or something like that. That way they're still around. I don't know. I don't know how it works. But my numbers since taking over that podcast and since changing the name to the Cal Kingsbury podcast are approaching episode 300, which is pretty cool. I think it was a year ago we got to 200 and I was like, this is dope. Maybe it must have been two years ago, actually.

200 felt good. But 300 feels like a big deal. Maybe it's not. 299 is approaching the big deal. And it's odd to me that this is the first time I've had an NFL player on the podcast. Football was my dream for as long as I can fucking remember. I grew up in the Bay Area, huge fan of the 49ers,

Joe Montana, huge fan of Bo Jackson on the Raiders. Just loved Bay Area sports, but especially loved Montana and the Niners. And would watch every game with my dad. And then if I'd get tired of watching, I'd say, hey, let's play three flies up. And he'd run outside with me like mid playoffs and throw the ball for me and my friends. And that was fucking rad. That was zero hesitation from. One of my favorite memories of growing up is anytime I wanted to play with my dad,

even if the fucking Superbowl was on, he'd play. So football, yeah, I got into it at eight years old. I remember I was pissed at my parents because I found out from a friend at a school who had been playing since he was six. And I was like, wait a minute, you can play football at six years old? And the Pop Warner teams in the south bay were

fucking ridiculously good after i finished i mean we lost one game we were undefeated during the regular season we lost i think in semi-finals uh before going to nationals and for an eight-year-old that's that's a lot like mc hammer in his fucking heyday was at that playoff game rooting for us. Sunnyville Micro Rockets were a big deal. And I think they won the national championship like seven times. Now, it's like kids, little league, that kind of shit. But not many people get to play for teams that good ever on their whole life. And to contrast that, when I got to high school, we were 0 and 10 my

freshman year. So I went from never losing to only losing. And it was a fucking gut-wrenching experience that I had no anticipation of. Monta Vista High School, I'm not going to get in trouble for saying this, but I'm still going to fucking say it. Montevista High School had 70% Asian Americans, which includes India as well as China and different countries around there, for those of you that don't know. And that didn't equate to winning many football games. We did have the largest Korean on earth, even though he's not technically in the Guinness Book of World Records. One of my best friends growing up, Peter Kim, he played offensive line 6'1", 270, I think

as a freshman or sophomore. That was a fucking big dude. But he was the only big dude and I was the only other big dude. So played D-line, loved it. Was pretty beat up. I don't dive into this much on the podcast, a little bit of chiming in, but Joe really walks us through his career and far fucking more. So don't think this is just to do with football because I can assure you, I loved that game for a very long time. I don't really watch it now, not because I think it's a lame game. I think it's awesome, but I've just got other shit to do. I'd rather play with my kids or read a book or get outside in nature and farm or fucking

fill in the blank. And there's no judgment whatsoever. If you're still hooked, watching every single game, or if you still play the game for damn sure, you're going to be watching games and checking out video and seeing what people are doing. But Joe, Joe had one of the coolest fucking career stories I've ever heard. Ups and downs, ins and outs. He ended on his terms, which I did not get to do. And I do mention that in the podcast on how that spawned me going forward into fighting. Some no mistakes there, of course, but he's walked a very similar path to me. And his podcast is

really about how people transition. Something that keeps coming up for me is the similarities, not samesies, but the similarities between men and women who leave professional sports and have to transition into everyday life and men and women who leave armed forces and services. There are clear differences. Life is not on the line in a sport. That's first and foremost. Secondly, getting hit by a linebacker is not the same as getting hit with a fucking IED. It's just not. But that said, football is a fucking IED. It's just not. But that said,

football is a fucking violent game and there is CTE and there is a lot of other things that can really fuck you up. Joe brought up on the podcast, Junior Seau killing himself. I remember when that happened too. It was like, holy shit, this is fucking real. And having played from eight until 23, I remember one of my first memories was we had a Marine, he was a calisthenics coach in the fucking Marines. If we talked in practice, he would make us bear crawl the length of the field and back. That's 200 yards if you never played football, bear crawling as an eight-year-old in all of your gear. So not a lot of people spoke at a turn. They instilled discipline at a very young age, which I am super appreciative of.

But back then, it was way more violent than it is now. This is before all the head stuff came out. And they were saying, you put your fucking face mask on him. Put your face mask on him. I just remember that every fucking day. Put your fucking face mask on him. And don't hit with the top of your head. No spearing.

But punch him with your fucking eyebrows. Wear the face mask connects to your helmet, you should be smashing somebody face to face. And we did that. We did that at eight years old. We did that all the way through I was 23. I fucking loved it. And I loved the violence of that game because it was an outlet for me, an outlet that I really needed. And without that outlet, here's the similarities. What the fuck do I do now? Right? So a lot of people are well aware of the amount of daily suicides we have in armed forces. And we don't dive into it on this podcast, but we do dive into CTE and different things, brain health. And I've had quite a few military

personnel on. I have quite a few more in the queue coming up because they have excellent stories. And I love hearing the great comeback, the great integration. How does that work for different people so it can inspire people? Even if you didn't climb a fucking tall ass mountain to begin with, like going to war or playing in the NFL or fighting in the UFC,

what does the second mountain look like? How do I get down from that first mountain and get back up the second one? So this is an excellent podcast. One of my favorites. I was joking with Joe. He's like, how long do you think you got? And I was like, well, I usually go an hour, an hour and a half. I mean, we easily could have gone two hours easily. And anywho, as I digress, Joe's podcast is a lot about how you make the transition out of sport, out of war, out of any of these things. And he's had some great guests on, myself included.

We'll link to that in the show notes if you want some more of me. If not, dude, you're going to love this podcast. And I can assure you, as long as we talk about his NFL story, we spend just as much time talking about his second mountain. And it's fucking rad. It's really, really special. So one of my favorite episodes, 299, Joe Hawley. Share this wide and far with all your friends because I think it'll touch a lot of people. And leave us a five

star rating. That is a massive way we can get more people to listen to the show with one or two ways that the show has helped you out in life. Organifi, the homies at Organifi have been doing this since last year. They're doing it all year long. We will pick, not randomly, we will pick the best review at the end of each month. So just leave a Twitter, Instagram handle. That way we can get your goodie bag out to you. And they're going to send you a free product from Organifi, one of my favorite products from easily one of my favorite companies. Every one of my sponsors is handpicked.

If not, they are delivered to me from the team and I try them on for size. And if I love them, yes. If it's not a full fuck yes, I don't have them on. We have very little podcasting space and we've had a lot of really long podcast sponsors because we are awesome. We do good for them and they do good for us and they believe in the content of the show

and I believe in their products very much so. We got Onalema today, Paleo Valley, Organifi, and my boys at Bioptimizers, all fucking solid ass companies that deliver the goods that actually work and actually change your body, your mental state, your health and wellness, all a part of the game. And that's something that really Joe and I have been, we dive into towards the end of the podcast is this attunement. How do I get to higher states of consciousness? It happens through the vehicle. It happens through the vessel. It happens through the body. So as contradictory as it seems, through fucking ancient whack-ass

traditions that tell you to, the body is meaningless and so is this life. And if you're a good boy and a good girl, then you'll get granted into heaven and all the other sinners will not. Fuck all that noise. Your body is' lives as tools that help our bodies in the it didn't. And it does help keep this show fiscally possible for me to devote my time and energy and efforts into creating it. And I love it. It's one of my favorite jobs. I'm juggling many things now from the podcast, the fit for service, private coaching, and the farm life, and still dadding and being a good husband. It's a lot. It's a lot on the table, but I would never leave podcasting off because it's just too much fun and I learned too much. Our first podcast sponsor of the day is Anolema Water. We recently had Mario from Anolema on breaking down what their structured water does, how long it lasts, all the capabilities of it. And it's a fucking phenomenal episode. We'll link to that in the

show notes for you. If you missed it, it is a must listen. Very few things have excited me in the way that analemma water has. And the reason for that is it doesn't just apply to the human body. Structured water applies to everything. It applies to the ground. It applies to the microbiome of the soil. It applies and benefits the plants and it applies and benefits the animals. And obviously jumping right into regenerative agriculture, full steam ahead over the last year and a half, that shit matters. So the fact that they're studying this on animals and plants really is cool. And I'm trying to participate in some side-by-side studies and doing something very basic where we do regular water on half the field for the three sisters, and then on a lemma structured water on the other half the

field. And we watch growth rates and document it. And we're going to do that regardless, but I'm currently in talks with them about making that happen. Are you ready to unlock the true potential of your body and mind? Introducing analema coherent water, a revolutionary way to improve your health and well-being. Analema has been clinically proven to significantly increase ATP levels, the mitochondrial energy of your body.

ATP is directly responsible for powering the majority of cellular processes in all living beings. Increased ATP levels result in improved athletic performance, enhanced cognitive function, improved cardiovascular health, and positively affect almost every area of human health. Furthermore, drinking analimum water improves the state of your microbiome. This leads to improved digestion, enhanced immune function, reduced inflammation, area of human health. Furthermore, drinking analemma water improves the state of your microbiome. This leads to improved digestion, enhanced immune function, reduced inflammation, improved mental health, and finally a reduction in risk of most chronic diseases. Imagine having more energy, a healthier gut, a clearer mind, and a youthful body. With analemma water, it all stops being a dream. Take the first step towards unlocking your true potential. Try Anolema Water and revolutionize your life.

Visit coherent-water.com. Every purchase comes with a 100% money-back guarantee, which I assure you, you do not fucking need. So you can literally taste the difference risk-free. Coherent-water.com and use code KKP for 10% off. That is C-O-H-E-R-E-N-T-water.com, code KKP at checkout for 10% off. This is something you're going to taste. There is absolutely no doubt about it. When you use the wand in your water bottle, 15 seconds per liter, you can literally watch the water change

into its coherent form as you spin it. And do a side-by-side taste test. I guarantee you will taste the difference between whatever water you normally drink and then after you make that water coherent. Whether you're drinking tap water, don't do that, or you're drinking really good spring water bought from the store or picked up, hopefully from a natural spring nearby. Once you structure it, it changes it.

It changes the taste, the viscosity, everything about it. And most importantly, it changes it it changes the taste the viscosity everything about it and most importantly it changes how it works in your body another great podcast episode is what i did with gerald pollock recently and he wrote the fourth phase of water there's an giant fucking book that covers the science behind this so this is not um fad this is not new this is something that's well studied well documented please check it all out and go visit the guys at coherent-water.com. Use code KKP at checkout for 10% off. We're also brought to you by my longtime homies, paleovalley.com. They have one of my favorite possible products on the planet. It's called bone broth protein. It's not processed with high heat. It's not extracted with harmful chemicals. It's 100% grass-fed and finished.

Their cows are guaranteed to have never been fed grains. Since the term grass-fed is unregulated, large collagen manufacturers are using this claim as well as pasture-raised, when in actuality, the animals are finished in a feedlot where they're fed grains. These guys are deep in the regenerative game, okay? Dr. Fred Provenza, who I'm going to have on the podcast,

was on Paul Chex. They have several more coming up too, so don't wait on me. Go to Living4D and listen to Dr. Fred Provenza, who I'm going to have on the podcast, was on Paul Chex. They have several more coming up too. So don't wait on me. Go to Living4D and listen to Dr. Fred Provenza. It is a phenomenal episode that Paul did with him. And Fred Provenza is an OG when it comes to regenerative agriculture and what animals actually prefer. His book, Nourishment, is absolutely incredible.

And one of the founders of Paleo Valley is actually finishing her, she's writing a dissertation and finishing her thesis on regenerative agriculture, studying under none other than Dr. Fred Provenza. So when I say that these guys are dialed in, I mean like they're working with the best in the world on how to regenerate the world. And regeneration comes with para albien de todos. It's for the good of all. It's for the benefit of the soil. It's for carbon sequestration. It's for the benefit of the plants, for the benefit of the animals,

and for the benefit of humanity. Everything is better with regenerative agriculture, and these guys are steeped in it. PaleoValley.com, the bone broth protein is absolutely no joke tasty. It's made from bones, not hides. Like I said, 100% grass-fed, grass-finished, and gently dried into powder. There's no chemical or high-heat extraction. Third-party tested for pesticides, herbicides, and heavy metals. There's none of that shit. You'll be blown away. Whether you have this with hot water, cool water, or like me, you get some raw milk, some good Jersey cow raw milk, and you warm it just slightly so it's still raw, and then you whisk in this stuff, and it tastes like hot cocoa. It is my family's favorite treat. It's my favorite treat.

Check it all out. PaleoValley.com. Use code Kyle for 15% off. That's P-A-L-E-O-V-A-L-L-E-Y.com. Code K-Y-L-E for 15% off. Next, we got the homies at Organifi.com slash KKP. Organifi has been one of our longest running sponsors, as I mentioned at the beginning of this show leave us a review on the podcast at the end, in the end of each month Organifi is going to randomly select a winning listener, not randomly, they're going to pick the best fucking review, who's going to receive one of my favorite products from Organifi

please leave your IG or Twitter handle in the review so we can easily connect and get you your prize Organifi.com slash KKP grab a sunrise to sunset kit to be covered with red, green, and gold with 20% offcom slash KKP. Grab a Sunrise to Sunset kit to be covered with red, green, and gold with 20% off using code KKP. This is easily what got me into Organifi. I was big into the juicing cleanse. Not the juicing you're thinking of right now. The documentary Fat, Sick, and Nearly Dead came out on Netflix and I watched it back in the day.

And I loved it, man. My wife and I went hard to the paint. It was before I knew much about blood sugar management and carbohydrates. And I was a lot younger there, so I was probably managing carbohydrates better, even though we were having way too many in our juice. We got an Omega juicer, the slow grinding one, not the speedy one. And we juiced a lot. We did celery and cucumber and lots of fruit and different things to sweeten it up. Probably twice a week we'd make it. And as long as you drink it within 72 hours, you're good, supposedly. But then later getting into ketogenic diets and metabolic health and finding out my genetics do not tolerate carbohydrates well, at least not easily digested ones like the fruit and

vegetable sugars you'd find in something that's been stripped away from juice and not tied to the fibers found in plant material that would allow it to go in slowly. That quickly became an issue. And it's also a huge pain in the ass to chop, shop, juice, and then clean your damn juicer afterwards. were taking products and not just things that were healthy for you, but really hard to find adaptogens and more or less plant medicines from all across the world used for thousands of years in Chinese medicine and Ayurvedic medicine and tying them all together in a way that tastes phenomenal and has low carbohydrates. Every one of their products has less than three grams of sugar. That's fucking massive. If you're plant-based and you listen to the show, I'm amazed, but they offer their entire line as plant-based nutrition you listen to the show, I'm amazed, but they offer their entire

line as plant-based nutrition with high quality ingredients. So if you've made it with us this far, that organifies your team. They're absolutely awesome. The green is phenomenal. It's phenomenal because of ashwagandha and moringa and a number of other things that help balance neurochemistry, help balance your nervous system. If you're cracked out on caffeine, if you didn't sleep well the night before, the greens, the thing is going to help you find your center.

The red is an amazing pre-workout. It's an amazing pre-bedroom. And it's just really good overall as a vasodilator that's going to help you pump more oxygen, increase nitric oxide, which boosts immunity as well as cognitive function. So a lot of people think increasing nitric oxide is simply for muscular gains or getting a good pump. That's definitely not the case. It's also great for increasing blood flow to the brain and getting nutrients and oxygen to the brain, which as we all know, increases mental and emotional energy. Let's check out the red. Check out the gold. The gold is a long standing favorite of mine. We mix it with warmed up a

coconut cream and it's got turmeric in it. A number of other things that tastes absolutely phenomenal. There's a fat whopper of lemon balm and it's my nightcap. It's my way to unwind after a long, hard day and just relax before going to bed. Check it all out. Organifi.com slash KKP. Use code KKP for 20% off. That's O-R-G-A-N-I-F-I.com slash KKP. Use code KKP for 20% off. That's O-R-G-A-N-I-F-I.com slash KKP. All right. We're also brought to you today by the longstanding homies, Bioptimizers. Hey guys, I want to share with you that recently I've been working on this very important project with a very short deadline as always. And it seems everything today is ASAP. This actually is true. This is written for me, but um I'll fucking admit it. This is a script written for me. Some of these are

And I don't mind reading scripts, but this is actually 100 Synchronistic because I have been busting my ass pre-ayahuasca trip and i'll be talking about that. Uh Episode 300 spoiler alert is going to be my my solo cast on my trip to sultara with aubrey marcus. Dr Dan ingle aaron rogers and a number of other awesome people. Anyways, I've not been able to keep up with my self-care routine. So no meditation, no workouts, no breaks, and to have proper meals and lots of coffee on top of that. It's so odd how fucking apropos this is. It is to the T exactly what's been happening. I haven't had meditation. I've worked out once a week. Haven't had many breaks. I've been having decent meals, but not dieta meals. And yes, I recently cut coffee four days beforehand. So it's not exactly like I've been on a dieta for

six weeks. And you'll find out more about how I led up to this and the reasons for that. But I was starting to get really stressed out when I remembered that magnesium breakthrough I take every night for sleeping better is also great support for stress management. In fact, magnesium is responsible for over 300 body reactions, and magnesium breakthrough is the only magnesium formula that delivers all seven different forms of magnesium, each with its unique benefits, one of them being feeling more calm, centered, and in control of our stress levels. So now I'm taking magnesium breakthrough in the morning too to counterbalance the stress from coffee and calm my nervous system for the day.

Since I started, I've noticed a significant improvement in my overall sense of wellbeing. If you are also trying to balance life's demands, give it a try. Trust me, your mind and body will thank you for it. Visit magbreakthrough.com slash kingsboo and order now.

That is M-A-G-B-R-E-A-K-T-H-R-O-U-G-H.com slash K-I-N-G-S-B-U. And do not forget to use code KINGSBOO in all caps for 10% off every order. And without further ado, my brother, Joe Hawley. Joe Hawley. This has been a long time coming, brother. What up, man? How you doing? It feels good.

We're jumping right in. Let's go. Fuck yeah. No, you can't beat around the bush. We just had a... I mean, we've been equating for some time. When did you guys first jump in Fit for Service? Were you guys year one?

Yeah, OGs. 2019. OGs. Before. Oh, geez. Before it was even a thing. Like, nobody really knew what it was. Yeah, it was like, we didn't know what it was. Yeah, that first Austin Summit, it was like so much different than the rest of them. It was like, there's a lot of like, filling it out energy and what is this?

And then it was Tulum was like, that was when the genesis of the energy really like started taking shape. Yeah, and it was before. It's funny thinking back to that because I'm always on to the next thing. I energy really like started taking shape. Yeah. And it was before, it's funny thinking back to that. Cause I'm always on to the next thing. I'm sure like you are, but yeah, to your point in Austin, we had like tug of war and a bunch of,

bunch of stupid shit. Like as we went through physical, mental, emotional, spiritual, that was the four that year for summits. And it was, it was really cool to get to Tulum.

It was right before tulum kind of became um you know name a fucking city and on the florida east coast yeah i heard it's changed a lot it's so even since we did that it's spring break yeah it's daytona it's fort lauderdale it's whatever the fuck place is popping i don't i don't even know i might be just calling out names from the 1980s when i was cracking there. But MTV spring break type shit. And it was really cool. It was like a place where they were super into eco villages and 100% regeneration. And the restaurants and how they powered stuff.

And they would use generators and solar. And everything would shut down at a certain point. And then it kind of shifted. I hear the drug trade's real big there. You can get anything you want and not good shit, you know, like bad drugs. All that big money came into for the, the, the, the beach resorts and all that. Yeah. So it's a totally different vibe. But when we were there, that was a fucking special time, dude. That was big time special. Yeah, it was. I think the way that that,

that summit really brought everybody together. I mean, obviously going out of the country just bonds people in a certain way because there's a natural discomfort of leaving the comfort zone of your own country and going out there and there's like a little bit of a pilgrimage kind of thing going on and then being out on the beach

and in the small group kind of environment that we had. And we actually went deep into that. Like it wasn't just the physical, it was now I think the mental quarter. And we started actually doing like sacred space and going deep into some deeper work, not think the mental quarter. And we started actually doing like sacred space and going deep into some deeper work, not just the physical body. And it was really powerful.

I mean, it was the first time I experienced like really feeling seen and heard. And like when I reflect on First Service and how impactful it was in my life was, it was just that the frequency of presence was so palpable. Like I felt like people were just like actually listening to me. I was like people were just like actually listening to me. I was like, whoa, like, this is crazy.

They weren't waiting to jump in. Yeah, they're like literally like care. Like these are all strangers and they care. They like truly care. And I was like, these are really special people. These are my people for sure. Yeah, that's dope, brother. Well, you know, the theme of each podcast is to dive deeply,

as deep as we can or as deep as you want to go into what made you, you, you know, in your path in life. Uh, obviously, you know, you've got your career in the NFL, you've got your post career, which is, is the second mountain. And that's a big part of your podcast. How do people integrate, you know, who come out of sports and come out of different aspects of life from that first mountain to the second mountain. Uh, we can dive into that as well, but talk about life growing up. You're a fucking giant dude, which I'm sure if you're one of the few people watching on YouTube, you can see the difference in size, but talk about life growing up. What was your influences? What were your loves and what sent you, you know, making it all the way to the NFL? Yeah, it's interesting. I think a big

part of my journey has been my religious upbringing and my relationship with my parents. We can dive deeper into the healing journey that that has been. It's been really profound. But I didn't grow up wanting to play football. It wasn't like a big part of my life. I didn't start playing until I was in high school. I actually had an opportunity to play Pop Warner, but I was too heavy,

because there was a weight limit, a weight cap. I had to cut weight for, yeah. Yeah, I had to cut like 15 pounds. And as a kid, I like, you know, I played soccer and baseball and I actually didn't really enjoy everything that went into sport. I didn't really enjoy like the conditioning, the like getting like uncomfortable and my body hurting and like having to push and sprints. Like I would always be the, I got bad body language. I just didn't like it. But there was something during the games, like the competition that just like lit me up and I loved.

And it was interesting. I don't know why I went into football because my brother is two years older than me. He'd come home every day. He played his freshman year when I was in seventh grade. And he came home every day crying to my mom saying, I want to quit. And that was one of the big lessons I learned early on from my mom was like,

if you start something, you're going to finish it. So she made him finish out the year and then said, you don't have to play the next year. But going into high school, I asked all my friends at the time, I'm like, Hey, do you guys want to go on the football team with me? And everybody's like, no, you're fucking crazy. Like, I don't, I don't want to play football. Like I'll get destroyed. And so I went out like by myself for some reason, there was just this calling. It's like the first real calling I had. And I went out there and I came home the first day and I loved it. Like everything about it.

And yeah, then the rest is kind of, kind of history. I just really fell like everything about it. And yeah, then the rest is kind of history. I just really fell in love with it. You know, I think a big reason on reflection now is my dad, you know, traditional kind of middle-class suburban family, like he was working all the time, wasn't super present emotionally and wasn't providing me with a lot of guidance in a male role model kind of way.

And football really filled that void for me. A lot of male role models, a lot of coaches, and that really filled me up. And when I started about my sophomore year, my coach was like, you have a chance of getting a scholarship. Like you have good feet. If you continue to improve and focus on this,

like, and I'll help you get there. And that was the first time anybody's given me any type of like positive validation. And that was when the dream was born of, you know, I'm gonna do this thing. And I remember sitting in my guidance counselors, like my junior year, my grades weren't very good. Like I wasn't really, you know,

like a lot of people's school and the standardized testing and all that was bullshit. And so I wasn't finding success in school. And I remember she sat me down, she's like doing the whole college admission thing. And she's like, what are you thinking for college? And I was like, I'm gonna get a scholarship in football and she like almost laughed in my face and like that like are you sure like that's really hard to do and I was like yeah I want to go to

like get the best like get me ready to the best of that if I get a scholarship to one of these you know University of California universities I can go and she was like okay well you know that's a long shot and I was the first like doubt that I was faced with but I just knew that I was like, okay, well, that's a long shot. And that was the first doubt that I was faced with. But I just knew that I was good enough to play. Got a lot of scholarships and ended up choosing a smaller school because I wanted to play right away. I got a scholarship to Wisconsin, Oregon, University of Arizona. And they didn't really recruit me heavily because there were bigger schools. Thank God you weren't a wildcat.

Yeah. I mean, Arizona and Arizona State, like that would have been fun. Yeah. I got mad respect for them now. During when I was in my college, in the seven years that I was in Arizona, I couldn't fucking stand them.

And then I went down there after, you know, long being done with football. And I was like, Tucson is fucking rad, man. Yeah. All that rivalry is fun when you're in the game. But like post game, tucson's a fucking cool spot man rivalries are funny huh like unr is our i went to unlv and unr is up north in reno and like i just like fucking hate them like yeah yeah fuck those guys yeah my wife went to uh

uh god what's the name of them the loggers the uh flagstaff what's the team in flagstaff university northern arizona northern arizona and it's funny because their football team was our The Flagstaff, what's the team in Flagstaff? University of Northern Arizona. Northern Arizona. And it's funny because their football team was our warmup. We would smash them every year, like almost like a pretty soon. Yeah, you're feeling good. Let's go.

Fucking 48 to zero, shit like that. So it was pretty comical that she was there. Their team was cross country and she was fucking dialed at that. But that's cool. That's such an important decision too. And backtracking too, I don't want to leave this off the table. The importance of having a role model in your life that believes in you is fucking everything, man. My head coach in football in high school was like,

you're not going to do shit. You're going to fucking sit the bench in junior college and wash out. And I was like, fuck you, man. That is never going to fucking happen. So in a way, he spurred me to fucking keep going. But what a douche thing to say to a fucking, you know, to a sophomore or a junior. I know, and like using that as like fire and fuel though, right? Yeah. Yeah, so that's not the move. I appreciate the players, coaches out there that take someone under their arm and pull them in and say, let me help you get what you want.

Yeah, I've had so many different types of coaches, man. And so like I know like what I like, what I don't like, what's good, what's not good. I've learned a lot about leadership and what it means to be a man by both good examples and bad examples and the way it's treated. And it's fascinating. It is fascinating. Another important decision you made was to go to a smaller school. So I had options of getting... I didn't have any options leaving junior college for scholarship other than D1 AA schools. And I was like, I really want to fucking play D1. And I had a conversation with some of the older guys at asu and they're like look man if you become a big big name and a big fish in a small pond that's one thing um but you're never

gonna know unless you unless you walk on and try and so i did walk on and try i was convinced by that argument all right i'll play with the big boys and then i just sat the bench and i was like yeah this kind of this is a failure well it takes a lot of courage to do that. I'd much rather have paid the last two fucking years. I'd much rather would have fucking been playing. And you know, one of my buddies, Jared Allen,

who was fucking awesome in the NFL, set a bunch of sack records when, I don't know if they've been beaten. Did he play at ASU? He played, no, he went to a small school.

He went to Idaho State. Oh, yeah. But I knew him in high school. He played at Los Gatos High School when I was at Monta Vista and it was like, he was defensive player of the year and I was defensive end of the year. He would have been defensive end of the year if I had made defensive player of the year, but we were neck and neck throughout junior and senior year. And then he went to Idaho State,

started wearing a cowboy hat and fucking went to the NFL and just destroyed everyone. Yeah, crushed it. He's really good. I was like, that's a fucking, that's a cool, that's a cool path. So seeing that direction from your story and from his, it Crushley, he's really good. I was like, that's a fucking, that's a cool path. You know, so seeing that direction from your story and from his, it's like it's for any, I don't know how many young people are listening to this, but if there's dads listening to this,

consider that it's a fucking really valid choice, you know? And even a more fulfilling one, if you hadn't gone to the NFL because you would have gone out on your sword, you would have gone out playing, you know, rather than going out,

sitting on the bench, cheerleading like I did. Yeah, I just loved the game that much and you know when i went to unlv they you know when they were recruiting me like the smaller school they're like we'll let you play whatever position you want like you can play defense offense because i played a little d-line too and i was pretty good both ways when i was in high school and then when i got there they're like you're gonna you're gonna play offensively and they put me in but i played my first game at 17 true freshman year against uh guys in byu that were like, you know, coming off their missions.

They're like 23, 24 years old playing against grown men. And I just, I loved the game. And the hardest year of my life was probably my rookie year when I got drafted and I was just a backup. And I sat on the sideline and we had a lot of success that year. We went 13-3, went to the playoffs as number one seed. This is the Atlanta Falcons. Atlanta Falcons, 2010. I was drafted in the fourth round. And there was a starting center that was like a 14-year vet when he retired. And so they brought me in to kind of replace him

eventually. And so I kind of was waiting for the opportunity, which I learned a lot through that experience. And we can talk a little bit about that. But when I was on the sideline, even though we had so much success as a team, I felt like I wasn't contributing. I felt like I wasn't a part of the team and it was really, really hard on me. Yeah. Yeah. I feel that. I get that for sure. You're 35? 34, yeah. 34. I was trying to do the math on that 2010 entry in the NFL. Yeah. That's a big one. Were you able to see playing time after that first year? Yeah, so my first year, I came in as a backup and just prepping. And I mean, rookie year was really hard.

I was 21. It was an older team. The offensive line I went in had, like they had played like three or four years together, which is really rare in the NFL to have a solid group that played that long together. And they're all a little bit older and a lot of experience. So I, you know, as a kid coming in and I felt it was really hard to

earn their respect, especially if I wasn't playing on the field, like as a football player, you know, especially in the NFL, like the older guys aren't going to respect you until you have to contribute to the team. And then they're going to take you under the wing and say, okay, you need to actually perform because it's going to affect all of our livelihoods. But until I got that opportunity, you know, they kind of treated me like you know who are you what are you doing here and I remember it was like halfway through the season one of these drives the starting center his name's Todd McClure he rolled his knee up and it was like really bad he was rolling around on the ground like

fuck fuck they had to like you know get him off the field and so I was like oh shit this is it this is my opportunity I'm gonna you know, get them off the field. And so I was like, oh shit, this is it. This is my opportunity. I'm going to, you know, take over and have my own 10 year career. And I went out there and it was, it was a third down in the red zone. I have a picture of this on my desk of my first NFL play.

It was fucking awesome. And snapped the ball, did a good job blocking. And then it was an incomplete pass. And so we came off on the field and I was getting ready for the, we got the ball back. I was getting ready. It was a two minute drive and we're waiting on a TV timeout.

And then I was like all nervous and getting ready. And everybody's like, let's go, Joe. And then all of a sudden like, Joe, you're out. And I'm like, what do you mean I'm out? And I look over at the tunnel and Todd's running out with his knee all wrapped up. Oh, fuck.

And he runs and he finishes the rest of the year. And I played that one play. And that was it. It was just such a like, this is my job now. To like moments later, like didn't play again. So I got my first opportunity to play the following year. He actually rolled his ankle in training camp. So I started the first three games.

And it was again, the GM and everybody was like prepping me for the start of the season. Like, Joe, this is your job to lose now. Like, you're our guy. This is what we drafted you for. And I played really good for those first three games. And it was my first experience of how the NFL, like just really terrible communication to players. And like he came back healthy,

like the fourth week of the season. And they just, they didn't really say anything. They just, he just like was the starter. And nobody like came to me and said, hey Joe, like we're going to put Todd back in. It was just like known. And so there's just like really weird how that always happened in the NFL. And, um, so then that was really hard to deal with. And then probably like week nine of that season, our right guard got hurt. So I not had an opportunity to play right guard. And so then I went in and

played the rest of the season, had a pretty, we went to the playoffs, played the Giants. It was 2011. And that was the year they went to the Super Bowl. We lost in the first round of the playoffs. And I had a pretty bad game. I was out of position. I wasn't meant to be playing guard. Guard's a lot bigger and I'm a smaller undersized center. I mean, even when I was playing at 295, I was definitely one of the most undersized centers in the league, but I was smart, fast, quick, and knew how to play the game of football. And that year, the starting center, Todd,

his contract was up. So he was setting to retire after 13 years. And so that off season, I was creating this story in my mind that I was gonna be the starter the next year. So I was telling all my friends, I was the top center on the roster and it was my job. And I was just creating this story in my mind that I was gonna be the starter the next year. So I was telling all my friends, like I was the top center on the roster and like it was my job.

And I was just creating this story of, you know, 10 year career. Like it's my job now. Like my shit don't stink. And we went into the draft that year. And the funny thing as a player watching the draft, you really don't know what the team's gonna do. And so one of my friends who was a tight end, actually,

I remember he was sweating bullets. Like we went to this local bar in Buckhead in Atlanta and we were all just gearing up to watch the draft and I wasn't nervous at all. You know, I was like, this is my job. Like I got this. And I remember him getting like really nervous. He's like, we're going to draft the tight end

with our first pick because we had Tony Gonzalez at the time who was set to retire. And so he was thinking we're going to replace him. And so he was like really nervous. And so we were watching the draft and then all of a sudden like three or four picks before the Falcons are going to pick,

you know, on Twitter, the picks come in a lot quicker than on TV. And so he comes over to me, he's like, Joe, you're not going to believe this. I'm like, what? He's like, we're drafting a center. And I just like, just like my heart dropped. Like I couldn't believe it.

I was like, I thought he was joking. I like laughed. And he's like, no, look. And he showed me that we drafted the best center in college football out of the University of Wisconsin. His name's Peter Kahn. And I was just like, in that moment, felt so betrayed by the team, felt humiliated.

And that triggered one of the hardest years of my life. I went from thinking I was gonna be the starter going into training camp to... Then two weeks later, we actually signed Todd McClure back to a one-year deal. So I went from being the number one center on the roster to like a couple weeks later being the third string center on the roster. So I barely made the team going into that third year. And I just was in a victim mindset. I was really just like drinking a lot, really depressed. And just just showed up and I was just pointing the finger at everybody but myself.

You know, I was like, the strength coach doesn't like me. The offensive line coach doesn't know what he's doing. The head coach, like all of these excuses. And it showed up when I showed up, you know, during practice and stuff, like it showed up in my body language and just all this stuff. And then ended up getting popped for a PD on a drug test because for Adderall. Oh, wow. And so I was taking Adderall and I didn't think it was going to come up on a,

like it comes up as a stimulant. I didn't know this at the time. And so I walked into my locker one day and I had a letter, you know, from the league office and they let you know that you failed a drug test before anybody else knows. It's like a legal thing. So I remember opening this letter and it said, you know that you failed a drug test before anybody else knows. It's like a legal thing. So I remember opening this letter and it said,

you know, we're informing you that we found amphetamines in your drug test and that's a four game suspension. So I was like, holy shit. And so I had to actually call the head coach and say, hey coach, like I'm gonna get suspended for four games. And I could have,

the only, like I knew I took the Adderall, so I couldn't really fight it. The only thing I could do is manipulate the timing of the suspension by appealing and stuff. But we were, again, that was a year, that was my third year, 2012. And we were having a really good year again as a team. I think we were like 12 and one or something at the time.

And so I ended up just taking the suspension so that I could come back in time for the playoffs. And that was a big wake-up call. And so I had four games suspension. I couldn't be around the team. And that was a big wake-up call. And so I had four-game suspension. I couldn't be around the team. And that was when I was like, okay, I need to buckle up. So you're not even allowed to practice during the four-game suspension? Not allowed to go to the facility at all.

Holy shit. Yeah, so I ended up flying back to Vegas where I went to school and I started training. And I really started focusing. I'm like, okay, like this is, it was a wake up call in the fact that like, I need to take more responsibility for what I'm doing and show up and work hard. And so I came back with this idea of,

okay, I'm gonna prove myself now. I'm gonna prove that I belong. Like I can't be fucking up anymore. And when I came back, there's a week where, you know, there's 53 men on the roster. And so when someone comes back from a suspension, they have 54 men on the roster. And so when someone comes back from a suspension, they have 54 men on the roster for one week so they can make a decision.

So during that suspension, they brought in a practice squad guy from the Saints to replace me on the roster for those four games. And so when I came back, it was the weirdest energy I've ever been a part of. It felt like I was a dead man walking. Everybody on the team wouldn't even look at me. There's not a lot of bodies in the NFL, so everybody during practice has to fill a role. They didn't even let me participate on the scout team or anything. I just stood there.

So I started feeling the writing on the wall that I was about to be released. And another point to the communication thing, that Saturday we're gearing up to go to Detroit to play the Detroit Lions. And on Saturdays before we travel, all of our bags are down to pack our bags for the travel. And my bag wasn't down off of my locker, which is weird. And so I grabbed it, pulled it down, and I started packing it up because nobody had told me that I wasn't traveling. And at that exact moment, the head coach, Mike Smith, was walking by and he saw me and he's like, Joe, what are you doing? I was like, I'm packing my bag, coach. I'm getting ready to go.

And he's like, oh, nobody told you? You're not traveling with us this week. And that was when I was like, I knew. I was like, oh, fuck. And so I had to go in my apartment, watch the game on the TV by myself and it was really, really hard. And my agent kind of informed me.

He's like, hey, I think they're going to release you and sure enough, after the game on Monday, one of the agent kind of informed me, he's like, hey, I think they're going to release you. And sure enough, after the game on Monday, one of the scouts hit me up and he's like, hey, coach wants to see you, bring your playbook. And I'll never forget, it was like two days before Christmas. I think we were like 12 and one at the time. We were about to be the number one seed in the playoffs. And I'll never forget, I walked up into the facility.

It was on an off day. So so none of the players were there. I walked up to the head coach's office, and Mike Smith was sitting there and Thomas Dimitrov, and I remember walking in, and it was like I was walking above my body. It was just the most intense feeling walking into that, and I was prepared for what was happening, but when I was going through the actual experience of it,

I was like, holy shit, and I sat down and they both looked at me and they said, Joe, we're going to release you from the team. And when they said those words, it was the first moment in my life where I was just filled with just a tremendous amount of regret. And in that moment, I realized, holy shit, like it was like this radical responsibility flooded me, and I felt regret because I wasn't doing what I knew I needed to do or what I could do as a player. I was waiting for the opportunity as opposed to taking the opportunity,

and so that shifted everything around, and they said some stuff, and I kind of blacked out. I don't really remember exactly what I said, but there was a few things that were said, and one of the things I asked them, I said, if the starting center gets hurt in the playoffs, would you trust this, this new guy that just came in to take you guys to the Superbowl? Or would you trust me? And they both looked at each other and it was like the first time that they even thought about

that question, which is fascinating that that should be the first thing they think about. And they said, I guess we'll have to trust the other guy. And I was like, okay. And they said, if you clear waivers, because when you get cut, there's 24 hours where any team can claim your contract. They said, if you clear waivers, we'd like to bring you back on the practice squad.

And I was like, I'm not clearing waivers. I'm a good football player. And my agent had already said four or five teams were interested because he already started shopping me around. And so I left and I went through the whole release protocol where I went to the training room, signed the papers, I turned all my equipment in and went up to sign the final papers with the contract guy. And his office is right across from the head coach's office. And as I'm sitting there, just kind of in my own contemplation of like what had just transpired, his phone rang. And I'm like,

that's weird. And he answered it. He's like, yeah, he's rang. And I'm like, that's weird. And he answered it. He's like, yeah, he's right here. He's like, okay. And so he hung up. He's like, hey, Thomas and Mike want to see you real quick. I was like, okay. So I walked across, sat down.

And they said, Joe, we thought about what you said and we're going to keep you on the team as the 53rd man. And I was like, holy shit. And I think I'm the only person I know of that has talked this way out of being cut. And I think there was other like extenuating circumstances. I think someone, like we had a receiver that they decided to put on IR.

So a roster spot opened. But because it was the first time I actually stood up for myself in that hyper and competitive environment, like a part of me was always in there, like, you know, big eyes, like, you know, do I belong here? A lot of imposter syndrome

that's how i felt in the ufc yeah it was really really challenging and um and so it's the first time i really stood up for myself and i'm really glad that i said those words because it kept me on the on the team and it shifted everything for my life for my career and i went in that off season and completely shifted everything around i we know we had a kind of a strength coach i was a little bit narcissistic. He really was best friends with all the top players. But if you're a younger guy or didn't start, he would just make your life a living hell. And so not a lot of people wanted to be in the weight room doing extra. And I ended up not giving a fuck what he said. And I went in there and I was

like, I'm going to do what I need to do. And I know what I need to do to be the best player that I can be. Because I realized when I was filled with regret sitting in front of them, they were about to release me, the machine was going to keep going. Nobody in this team was going to be like, oh, poor Joe. Because I had been around so many people that had been released and I didn't think about them ever. So it's this real wake-up call. And so I was like, I know there's going to come a time

when I'm no longer playing football, but I don't want to be filled with this feeling of regret. I want to make sure that I give everything I have and play as hard as I can. And one day when I'm done playing, I want to be okay with that. So I ended up playing another five years and was able to walk away on my own terms, which is a really, really rare thing in the NFL.

Yeah, that's incredibly rare. What's the average time span that most people spend? Is it like two and three-quarter years, something like that? I think it's like around three, yeah. Yeah, because three incredibly rare. What's the average time span that most people spend is like two and three quarter years, something like that? It's like around three, yeah. Yeah, because three is when you get pension, right? Yeah, three is when you get pension. And the rookie contracts are really capped at a certain amount. And then when you get a second contract, you're getting paid four or five times as much as the younger guys. So unless you really are worth that amount of money, they're not going to keep you that it's being another younger guy in because of the money. And so, you know, I went in that third year,

after that third year into the off season, and I just was like crushing it, like reshape my body. I was working out. I was the strongest I'd ever been, the best shape of my life. And at this point, Todd McClure had finally retired the starting center after 14 years.

And so it was an open competition between me and Peter Kahn, his top draft pick for the center job. And he was the first, running with the first team. I was running with the second team. And I was out playing him in every way possible during training camp.

And even like some of the front office scouts were like, damn, Joe, like, keep it up. You're like really crushing it. We see you. And all my teammates, even Matt Ryan was like, damn, like, keep it up, dude. Like, I see you. And week one came around

and it was talked about being an open competition all through training camp. It was talked about in the media, but I was running with the second team. Peter was running with the first team. And week one came around and nobody came to me and said, hey, Joe, we're going to go with Peter as a starter. There was no closures.

It's like we went into the, to start game planning for week one and it was just like Peter was the starter. And was no closures. It's like we went into the, to start game planning for week one and it was just like Peter was the starter. And like everybody was like questioning, like why isn't Joe out there? And that was because he's a top draft pick. So they're going to give him every opportunity to fail. And so instead of going back into that victim mindset

that I was so used to, I was like, you know what? Like I've been through this before. I'm going to keep, like I'm doing so well. I'm just going to keep focusing on what I need to do. So I went in there every day and just worked my ass off. And as a team, we really struggled. And I think part of that was

because Peter wasn't really performing. And so week nine of that season, this is my fourth year, my contract year. And so I was creating the story. I was like, I just need a fresh start. I need a new opportunity. I'm looking forward to getting out of here and signing with a new team next year.

So I'm just going to do what I need to do. And so week nine, I finally get a phone call before the start of week 10. And it's Mike Smith, the head coach. He said, hey, Joe, we're going to bench Peter and we're going to give you an opportunity to play. I was like, okay, let's go. And end up playing the last seven games of that year.

And I played really well. I crushed it. And went into the games of that year. And I played really well. I crushed it. And went into the off season that year into free agency. And I packed up my apartment. I road tripped to Vegas. And I was like, I'm ready for a new start. I got some film now, which is really big for free agency. Because if I would have not played the rest of that year,

I would have probably got a minimum deal to try and like prove myself. But because I played really well, you know, the Falcons, the way free agency works is free agency starts in the spring. And so there's a couple months well, the Falcons, the way free agency works is free agency starts in the spring. And so there's a couple months where only the Falcons, because I'm still under contract technically,

can offer me an extension before I hit free agency, but I can't talk to any other teams. And so the Falcons right after the season, they offered me like a minimum deal with like a $60,000 signing bonus with minimum like half a million dollars a year. And I was like, I can get that anywhere. So no. And so I didn't hear from them the rest of the couple months. And I was like, I can get that anywhere. So no.

And so I didn't hear from them the rest of the couple months. And I was just focused, training, doing really well. And the way free agency works is there's like three tiers, I would say. Like the first tier of guys get on a plane, like the morning free agency starts to the teams that they want. Those are the big money guys. Second tier is like starter caliber guys that once those guys start getting filled in,

those guys will get opportunities and contracts. And then the third tier guys are like, second tiers, like starter caliber guys that once those guys start getting filled in, those guys will get opportunities and contracts. And then the third tier guys are like backups or guys that could be starters. And so my agent was being a realist with me. You're probably like maybe second tier, probably third tier of the free agency kind of frenzy that happens. I'm like, okay. And like two days, three days before free agency was about to start, my agent called me and said, the Indianapolis Colts are really into you. They want to fly you out on the first day. Oh.

Yeah. I'm like, oh, fuck yeah, let's go. And I was really excited about that and excited about the fresh start. And the night before, like they had my plane ticket all set up. The night before, my agent called me and said, hey, the Falcons found out that you're going to, you know, another team likes you and they wanna keep you. And I was like, okay, we'll tell them to put their money where their mouth is

and ended up going back and forth. And they ended up offering me a two year, $6 million deal and $2 million signing bonus. And I was like, okay, let's go. And so I ended up signing back with the Falcons and it was really, really beautiful. And I was really proud of myself, like earning that and what I've been through. And it's really hard to shift those first impressions and especially in the NFL. And it all was like feeling good.

And when the training camp ended up signing back with the Falcons, went back there and everything was different. The way the team treated me, I was the undisputed starter. They just paid me this money and went into training camp, played really well and ended up going and playing. I think it was week four of that season. We went up to Minnesota and ended up blowing my knee out. ACL, MCL, like totally just shredded it. And that was really hard.

And it was a 11 month recovery. And another thing with that was really hard. And it was a 11 month recovery. And another thing with that was crazy. I, you know, I was running on this play. This guy like leg whipped me, crushed my knee and I knew it was fucked up. Like I was in the shower afterwards and I like would go like this and my leg would just like swing.

Something's wrong. So I went and got the MRI and I was still hoping for the best. And cause if it was just an MCL, like MCL is usually, you know, they pop off and like four to six weeks without surgery will heal back. ACL, you need surgery.

Like you can't play with it, football at least. And so I go into the doctor's office the following day to look at the MRI results. And the doctor's like, hey, this is the best case scenario. Like your MCL is fucked up. It didn't just pop off. It kind of pulled and curled up. So there's a possibility it doesn't heal right. But if you look right here, your ACL is fine. And so we can brace it up four to six weeks and you can be back playing. And since it was early in the season, I was like, okay. And so I went back and I was just focused. I texted my

agent. I was like, best case scenario, just went back and I was just focused. I texted my agent. I was like, best case scenario, like just MCL. I was texting my family and my parents. And I was just focused. I was like, let's start doing this rehab process. And like 20 minutes later, the trainer comes over and he's like, hey, the doctors want to see you again in the office. I'm like, okay. So I go back in there and it's just a completely different energy,

like really somber. And the doctor's like really cold. He's like, Hey, we sent the MRI to the radiologist that like, look at these all the time. And I said, unfortunately your MCL is completely torn off the bone. And he like zoomed in on it. He's like, it's so cleanly torn off. You see that little gray line that's there. It popped straight off the bone. It looks like it's not torn, but it's torn. And so it went from four to six weeks to complete like knee reconstruction, 11 month recovery. Whereas, you know, they were saying, this is a really hard thing to come back from. And that just completely shifted everything. And I'm going to work, get the surgery with Dr.

Andrews, who's one of the best in the business. And I ended up coming back. Our whole coaching staff got fired that year. And a new coaching staff came in after in the business. And I ended up coming back. Our whole coaching staff got fired that year. And a new coaching staff came in after that off season. And I was just, you know, focused on getting my knee right. And it was when Dan Quinn came in and Kyle Shanahan, who runs a really like outside zone, like running offense that I was perfect for. And so I was really excited because this is my fresh start.

I get like basically a new team because this whole new coaching staff comes in. And they I was really excited because this is my fresh start. I get basically a new team because this whole new coaching staff comes in. And they watched my film and they're like, Joe, you're our guy. You're perfect for this offense. We love the way you play. Just get your knee right and you're our guy. And so I went into training camp that year as the starter,

but because training camp started at nine months of my recovery, they just slowly eased me back in. And then about the third week of the preseason, one of the practices, they said, Joe, I was working my way up to doing a full practice. And so they were going to give you a full practice and kind of see how it goes. I didn't know this at the time. Looking back on it now, the entire organization was using that practice to see if i was ready to go but they didn't tell me they didn't say hey joe like your life and your career depends on how well you play

today because then i would have taken the pain pills i would have shown up and i would have just pushed through all the pain and the fucked up thing is like during one-on-ones as an offensive lineman one-on-ones is like the worst fucking drill it's for those of you don't know one-on-ones is a pass drill where the defense is one-on-one. So me as a center would go against a D lineman. They know it's a pass in this drill. And so as an offensive lineman with no protection, usually I'm having help from both my guards on pass protection. So it's a one-on-one situation. He has a three-way go and we had this 340 pound Samoan D lineman. And so he just bull rushed me like three times in a row and like just went straight down my throat

just and pushed me back. And like, I'm trying to brace on my knee. And so I'm not able to brace. And I didn't really have a good practice. I was like wincing a little bit. It was just really hard. My knee was probably at 80%. And afterwards that guy came up to me and said,

Joe, I'm sorry. They told me to bull rush you as hard as I could. And I was like, fuck them, man. And so like, I didn't blame him, but just like the way they handled the whole situation on me is just really fascinating. And then after that practice, like everything shifted. Like similar to the kind of dead man walking thing,

like the energy of the entire team like just shifted towards me. It was really fascinating. And so going into the final preseason game, for those of you that don't know, the fourth preseason game, a lot of the starters don't really even play. The third game is like the dress rehearsal and the fourth game, I think they've shifted all this now because there's only three preseason games. But that fourth preseason game is usually like all of the rookies are playing for like the last couple of roster spots. All

the starters don't even dress. And that night before the game, they were putting up the depth chart up on the screen in the offensive line meeting room. And my name was on the fourth quarter. So I went from going into training camp that year as the starting center to the fourth preseason game playing the fourth quarter where I was fifth year starter at this point and surrounded by all these rookies

that probably weren't gonna make the team. And I was like, what the fuck and so i i pulled my coach aside after the meeting i said hey what what is this like what's this about and he's like hey we're just uh we're just trying different different uh different combinations out there and like totally lied to my face i was like man like fuck you and went into i was like i might get cut this this weekend um and so every final preseason game is on a Thursday. So Friday and Saturday are final cuts. I didn't get a phone call.

So I was like, okay, I made it. And I was just like, I got a call on Sunday night from my offensive line coach. And he said, hey, we're gonna go with this other guy as the starter for this week one. And you're gonna be the backup. And I was like, okay. And I was okay with that

because I knew my knee wasn't right. You know, four or five weeks, I get my knee right. And just like it's happened before my career, they'll realize that this guy's, because this guy that they replaced me with never played center. He was a tackle. And so he never really knew how to snap the ball. And there's just so much that goes into the center position. Yeah.

And he's not even an interior. He's not a guard either. Yeah. So like the size difference is pretty vast. Totally. And there's so much that goes into it and not having any experience with the communication, the calls, leadership, the confidence that it takes to run that position.

It's not necessarily as physical or strong, but it mentally, like if you don't have that, it really shows up. But it's something that coaches really don't understand because of the leadership component that's out there. And so I went in Monday and was just really focused. And I was like, I'm gonna show them that I belong to be the starter.

And then on the way home, I got a call from the scout and he said, hey, Joe, coach wants to see you bring your playbook. So I went all the way back to the facility and I was hoping for a similar outcome where I could talk my way out of it. But I went in and Dan Quinn's like, hey man, we're gonna cut you.

And what had happened is they claimed another center that got released from a different team that they were bringing in. And because they cut me on Monday instead of Friday or Saturday, all of the rosters were already set. So there was no opportunities for me. And so that was really hard.

But it was the first moment in my life where I really knew like, that this is happening for a reason, you know? And I trusted that. And it was really hard still, like dealing with, you know, the feelings of, you know, being rejected and being a failure.

And there's a lot of grief and I was crying. And, you know, my girlfriend at the time was really supporting me and I was just waiting for the next opportunity. And my whole coaching staff that got fired, the offensive coordinator, Dirk Cutter, he actually was- He was my head coach at ASU.

I love Dirk. Dirk's probably one of my favorite coaches I've played for because he keeps it real. And he ended up calling me week two. And he said, hey, Joe, I saw you got cut. We just signed a starting center to a pretty big contract, but we have to dress eight offensive linemen. And so, but we have to dress up eight offensive linemen.

And so in the NFL, most teams dress seven offensive linemen. There's five starters. And then there's two backups, one guy that can play center and guard both positions and then a swing tackle. And so they do that. If they have to dress eight guys,

it's because they have a guy that plays center guy, plays garden, a guy who plays tackles backups. And so that takes a roster spot away from a DB or a linebacker that they can use on special teams. So these are just little things that happen in the NFL. And so Dirk was like, you know, I need a guy I can trust as a backup and a guy that I know can play guard and center.

And I had experience with both. He's like, I don't know about the money or the contract stuff. You can talk to the GM, but I would really like to have you down here. And I'm like, okay. And there was no other opportunities. So I ended up talking to the GM

and they offered me basically a minimum contract with all these incentive bonuses to make up to like three, three and a half million dollars. And there were playtime incentives. I think they were stacked at like 50%, 70%, 90%. And so I'd have to play 90% of the snaps in order to hit all these escalators to make my full contract,

which is the starter money that I was making in Atlanta. And that's another thing when they cut me in Atlanta, like they didn't owe me any of that second year. So the $3 million. You just got the bonus in the first year. Yeah. So I got the $2 million sign bonus, $1 million base salary. So I only made half that contract. None of the rest of it was guaranteed. So they just cut me clean. And so I went down there and week two, I just ended up signing with Tampa and I got there on a Wednesday. And luckily I had a lot of familiarity with Dirk Cutter's offense because I had run it

like for three or four years in Atlanta. And so I had to wipe clean Kyle Shanahan's offense, which was completely different. And luckily I have really good recall. And so all the plays and the schemes were coming back to me, but I had to really study to prepare for the game which was on Sunday. And I'm going in and my knee is still like 80%. And the coaches come up to me and they say, hey, is your knee right? Can you dress? And I'm like, of course. I'm like, yeah,

I got this. And I went in and got some pain pills, shot it up and was ready to go. And so I was on the sideline. Didn't even really know a lot of my teammates' names or anything. And the first play of the second half, the starting center rolled his ankle. And I went out there and played my ass off. And I remember the first play because we had a right guard was a rookie. He has a really cool story. His name's Ali Marpet.

He was a rookie and he was the highest drafted player ever out of a D3 school as an offensive lineman. Damn. Which is insane. He played at Hobart. And so he was a second round pick, but he's wide-eyed

right like by the book wide-eyed doesn't really know what's going on it's his second game of his entire career coming from a D3 school which I mean like

D3 offensive line like I mean he must have been crushing people like playing like high school ball it's probably even worse than high school ball in some ways and then I have on my left

the left guard is Logan Mankins who's like a all pro, came from the Patriots, like guy that knows what he's doing and so for me and Logan, like we kind of have a sixth sense, like I don't even really need to communicate to him but I remember one of the first plays

is this run play and I have to combo block with the guy on my right and I turn to Allie and I'm like single, single, single and he looks at me, he's like what the fuck's a single because although the scheme was the same, it was a different offensive line coach.

So all the offensive line terminology was different. And so because of his thing, I was just going back to habits of my calls. And I was like, you know what the fuck to do? Like just block this guy to that guy. And so then like we hiked the ball. And so I was like communicating with him and ended up just playing my ass off.

And the starting center's injury was like a six week injury. And when he got healthy, he came back and they basically told him we're going to stick with Joe because I was playing so well. So I ended up starting the next 30 games, had like a resurgence of my career, ended up hitting all of my incentive bonuses.

And that's what allowed me to make enough money to start contemplating retirement when I did, which was really, really a true gift. Yeah, that's fucking incredible, man. That's super incredible. That was insane. That is not the textbook story of most people that go through the NFL. Yeah.

I've had a really up and down career. I mean, I lost my starting job five different times for different reasons. I went into my seventh year. You know, this is crazy too. So I had a two- two year contract my sixth year my seventh year and I was playing the best football in my career

and about five weeks left in my seventh year I was going into another free agent year and the team reached out to my agent

said we want to offer Joe a contract extension and I was like fuck yes like I finally made it and getting a contract extension is like big time

you know and especially before the season's over. And so I was really excited about that. I was like, okay, I'm finally like found my team. This is going to be my spot. And went into, we were playing the Dallas Cowboys in Jerry's World in Dallas on Sunday night football. And everybody, when you're playing a primetime game, everybody in the country is watching you. You know, when you play a normal Sunday afternoon game, like it's just like regional or local, but when you're playing a primetime game, everybody in the country is watching you. When you play a normal Sunday afternoon game, it's just regional or local. But when you play those Sunday night games

or Monday night games, everybody gets geared up for them because they know everybody's watching. And I went out there and I'll never forget, dude, this one play. I played a really good game, but there's this one play when we were running a play action,

I'll never forget, and I felt this field blitz coming. And I had a nose tackle on my right side on my snap hand. And as a center, when a guy's on your snap hand, you need to make sure that you get over because a lot of the guys try and get your snap hand before I snap the ball up. And so I was telling the guys like, slow it down,

slow it down because I knew a blitz was coming. And I saw everything, slow motion, what was happening. And as I hiked the ball and I went to punch this nose tackle, he crossed my face, knocked my arm down and I fell over and I just watched him go by and he hit Jameis Winston, sack, fumble. They pick it up and score, touchdown.

Fuck. And everybody who was watching that game saw that it was me and they replayed it. Like, oh, what happened? And they circled me and they're like, Joe Hawley got his name. So everybody knew it was me and so after that game like a couple days later i hit my agent up and i'm like hey man like how how are contract talks going just kind of like revisiting that and he's

like hey the team called me and said they want you to focus on finishing the season out because they don't want you to you know they don't want the contract to get in the way of your play and i was like okay that's strange i was, well, I'll just finish the season now. There's like four games left. We ended up finishing and we had a chance to go to the playoffs that year. We had like a five game winning streak and we ended up losing like two of our last three games

and we missed the playoffs by a tiebreaker. And so after the season that year, I was like, okay, I hit up my agent. I was like, hey, what's up with the contract talks? And they said, they're not gonna offer you a contract. I was like, fuck. And's up with the contract talks? And they said, they're not going to offer you a contract. I was like, fuck. And so that one play, tracing it back, potentially cost me a ton of money.

And so I went in and that's when I started contemplating, okay, I'm going to test free agency because it's dumb not to. But if I don't get a certain amount of money from a team, then I'm just not going to play. I'm starting to really feel okay with retiring. And that was when I started, a lot of the CTE stuff was coming out. And I was really just contemplating, am I willing to sacrifice more of my longevity and my health for more wealth?

And I had made probably $10 million at that point. And so I got to a point where I had made enough money and I didn't want to sacrifice that. And I started wanting to take better care of myself. And so I had a number in mind and going into free agency that year, it was like a week or two before free agency was about to start. And my agent called me and said, hey, the Bucks are offering you a deal.

And basically it wasn't the number that I wanted. And so I told my agent, I said, hey, there's not enough money. And he's like, hey, unfortunately, I'm, I said, hey, there's not enough money. And he's like, hey, unfortunately, I'm talking to these other teams and there's no other buyers. Like there's nobody else that wants you.

So we don't have any leverage. And I was like, I'm not really bluffing. Like I won't play. I've already thought about this and I need to make enough money to justify me going out and playing again. And so he went back to the team and he said, Joe, like I tried, there's no more money on the table.

And I was like, okay, well then tell him I'm done. And he was like, this really upset me because my agent wasn't, he thought I was bluffing. You know, and he was like, hey, like you're not understanding me. There's like, there's no more money, like I tried. And I was like, you're not understanding me. Like I'm dead serious.

Like I'm done playing if they don't pay me more money. So he's like, you're not understanding me. I'm dead serious. I'm done playing if they don't pay me more money. So he's like, hey, just promise me you'll take the night to think about it. And I was like, okay. And I had my fantasy baseball draft that night with my friends and they were all coming over and I was like, okay, so let me, I'll sleep on it. I already know, but I'll sleep on it. Just out of respect for you. And probably like an hour later, I get a call from Dirk Cutter, the head coach. And he's like, hey, Joe, what's up, man? I'm like, hey.

He's like, I just want to congratulate you on signing back, man. Like, we're really happy to have you. I was like, coach, I don't know where you heard that. I told my agent it wasn't enough money. And he's like, oh, shit. He's like, my bad. And Dirk's so cool.

Like, Dirk's like, okay, I hope you work it out with the contract guys because that's not his realm right and he's like we really want you back but you know if it's not enough money like you work that out with Jason

I was like okay thanks coach and so I call my agent back and I'm like hey cat's out of the bag dude like I told the head coach that it's not enough money and he's like what the fuck why would you do that

and I was like you think I'm bluffing bro like call him and figure this shit out so he calls me back like 20 minutes later after talking to the team and he's like Joe

you know they pulled the deal. Like it's off. I was like, okay, shit. And then it got real. I was like, okay. And so I ended up hanging up the phone and I was like really like feeling the depth of that finality of what had just transpired.

And luckily I had, you know, my friends and this experience of this fantasy baseball draft to kind of focus on. And so I was like, you know, I'm just going to have fun tonight. I'm going to do this thing. And like 20 minutes before the fantasy baseball draft to kind of focus on. And so I was like, you know, I'm just going to have fun tonight. I'm going to do this thing. And like 20 minutes before the fantasy baseball draft was about to start,

I get a text from the GM, Jason Light. And it's like, hey, can you talk? And so I texted him back and I was like, hey, I'm busy. Can I call you in the morning? And he's like, yeah, call me in the morning. And that text message was like, okay, I got something here.

Like there is some value that they have within me and there's some hope here that I can work something out. So I ended up calling him the next day. And this is the second time in my career where I really, it was a big boy conversation and I had to stand up for myself. And so I called him and I basically laid it out, all the things that you can't really see on film,

all the things that I offered the team as far as my leadership. And I told him about how our coach, when he game planned some stuff, we had a lot of younger guys. If they were confused on a game plan, we'd go into the locker room and I'd be like, hey, listen guys, this is what he means. This is what we're going to do. And I would get everybody on the same page. And there was moments during the season, you don't know this, but when there's a blitz package that a team does that we don't game plan for, I am able to pick up that blitz because I know how football works.

And so not everybody can do that. And so I'm telling the GM all these things that I provide value in that you can't just see on paper. And so he was like, okay, let me talk to the owners and see if I can get you some more money. And so he ends up calling the owners and end up getting myself 500 grand more than my agent would have got me. And so I called my agent back. I'm like, hey, bro. I thought you told me there's no more money. Like how come I'm doing your job for you? And I got myself more money. And I was really upset. I was going to fire him. But then the GM was like, if you fire your agent, there's some legal stuff. We can't sign you for 30 days and all this stuff. And I was like, okay. So I'm telling my agent, I'm not going to pay you commission on the money that I got paid myself, which is what we worked out.

And then I ended up going into training camp that year. And what I realized is they didn't want to pay me starter money because their plan the whole time was the right guard, Ali Marpet, who was playing right guard two years next to me, they wanted to move him over to center and they wanted to bring me back to groom him as the incumbent center to like take over and have that job well into the future. And so although they told me it was an open competition and training camp and everything, like I knew the writing on the wall and I still played my ass off

and I did everything I could to earn that job. But I knew like when the team makes up their mind in that way, like that's the way it is. And so he earn that job. But I knew when the team makes up their mind in that way, that's the way it is. And so he won the job. And then I went into week one of that season. We were playing the Chicago Bears. And I was in my street clothes as an inactive player, which is cool. When I was younger, we'd always say the guys that were living the dream are the guys that

don't have to play. And they're making really good money. So I was making $2.5 million that final year in my street clothes on the sideline. I was like, this ain't too bad. But it was the first moment, like I remember I was getting the offensive line prep for that first kickoff and they were about to take the field and I was getting them all jazzed up and then they kind of ran out on the field and I was staying behind. And it was the first time in my career when I wasn't out playing that I didn't feel this passion or desire to go earn that starting job back.

I was content with not having to play. And I was actually, part of me was actually excited that I didn't have to put my body on the line. And that's when I knew, I was like, okay, this is gonna be my final year playing. Like, I just know it, it's gotta be. And that's when I started telling my fiance at the time, like, hey, this is gonna be my last year playing. She's like, what? No, it's not. And I told my fiance at the time, like, hey, this is gonna be my last year playing.

She's like, what? No, it's not. And I told my dad and my mom, like, hey, this is gonna be my last year playing. And they're like, what are you talking about? Like, you're in your prime, like you're making all this money. Like, what do you mean? And so like, nobody understood that decision.

And I went in, tried to stay in shape because I knew if someone got hurt, like I didn't want to let my team down. And I'm really grateful that I had an opportunity to really be present with my final year. Like all the hard shit, the challenges, like I was just present with all of it and I was just absorbing it all

because I knew it was gonna be the last time I was gonna be able to play football. And like week 12 of that season, like I see the light at the end of the tunnel. Part of me was like really excited about experience. Like what's life like outside of this game? It felt like almost like the self-created prison almost like i didn't know what life or who i was outside of this thing and part of me was really excited about exploring what that what that is uh and then week 12 light at the end of the tunnel we're almost there it's really

hard to stay in game shape throughout a season especially if you're not playing because as the season goes on practices really diminish as far as like the intensity of them. And so I'm trying to stay in shape. I'm trying to work out. I'm already starting to lose weight. There's like five weeks left and we're playing the Falcons, I think. And two offensive linemen end up going on IR that year or that game.

And so go into the next game, we're playing the Green Bay Packers. And I know like, shit, I'm gonna have to start this game. And this is the time I'm going through the breakup with my fiance at the same time. So my personal life is just really, really feeling deeply challenged. Like one of the hardest things I ever had to go through was working through that. And we can talk a little bit more about that. But I go into having to start the Green Bay Packers game and I go into the doctor's office and my knees are fucked

up at this point, my whole body really. And I said, hey, to finish out the season, give me some pain pills. And this is when a lot of the stuff around pain pills and just prescribing it like candy, they started reeling that in pretty big. Like, Joe, we don't want to give you pain pills, but we want to give you anti-inflammatories. We think that will help better. And anti-inflammatories, I know at this point, fuck up your stomach lining in a really big way. And so I'm like, okay, fine. And I just listened to them. So they give me these 800 milligram ibuprofens and they're telling me to pop like three to five of these a day, all week. And so I ended up coming Saturday, the game's on Sunday. Saturday, we go in for a walkthrough and we're getting ready to travel to Lambeau.

And I'm just, all of a sudden I just get deathly like ill, like sick. I'm like shitting water. I'm throwing up and I'm just like feeling just so bad. And I can't even go to the walkthrough. I'm like, I'm in the doctor's office. I'm like, fuck, like, I don't know if it's a stomach bug or what this is. And they're like, okay, we're gonna just pump you full fluid.

So I got, ended up traveling with the and uh like probably every hour they would have a person come in and give me an iv and so i'm getting like bags of fluid all night and they're just like we're gonna do everything we can to get you ready because at this point i'm the third string center and so the next guy up is like a practice squad guy that they had to move up and so all the way up until i'm literally in the locker room like three hours before game, still curled up in front of my locker. Like I go to the trainers. I'm like, I can't play. Like, I'm sorry. I don't know what this is. And they're like, okay. So they ended up going with the other guy. And it's so fascinating. This is the first time I've actually experienced like a psychosomatic, like experience of stress and how it affected my

body. Because once the game started, I was in my street clothes on the sideline. I felt so much better. And what I realized was I had all this stress from the personal stuff I was going through with breaking off my engagement, but also the stress of, can I still perform with the best in the world?

Am I gonna be able to play? I haven't played all year. I'm thinking about my retirement. I don't know if I can still play this game with the best in the world. Like, am I going to be able to play? I haven't played all year. I'm like thinking about my retirement. I don't know if I can still play this game with the best. And so the fact that I knew everybody would be like looking at me and on TV and all this stuff was like, holy shit, can I still play? And all that stress like ate away.

And I knew I had, I started thinking of it had to be ulcers because I felt so much better after I wasn't having to play the game was really fascinating to me. So I went into the doctors like, hey, I wanna get pictures taken of my stomach. I think I have ulcers. And they're like, no, no, it's not ulcers.

And I'm like, I wanna get pictures taken. And they're like, no, no. And finally I had to put my foot down. I was like, I wanna go see a gastrointestinal doctor. And so that Wednesday I went in and saw the doctor and this is really fascinating too, because I sat down with that doctor and it was during install meetings and Wednesdays in the NFL or like our big practice day to prepare for the next opponent. And so I go in there during,

before practice, during the install meetings to go check with this doctor. And I'm like, yeah, I think I have some ulcers. I want to get a picture taken. He's like, okay, if we put you under, because they got to put you under anesthesia to put the tube down your throat to take the pictures of your stomach, you won't be able to practice for 24 hours because of the anesthesia. I'm like, okay.

And so he went, he said, let me tell the team. So he went and told the team and he came back and said, hey, the team said you need to practice today. So I can't do this procedure. And I look at this doctor and I'm like, you don't work for the team. You have a duty as a doctor for my health and my wellbeing.

And you're gonna say that because I have to practice that you're not gonna do this. And he straightened up real quick. And he's like, okay, you're right. Let's do this thing. And so he ended up taking the pictures. And sure enough, he saw two big ulcers in one side of my stomach that were burned in there

from the ibuprofen and the stress as well. So he gave me the proper medication and I was good within a few hours of taking the right medication and I felt so much better. And if they would have given me that right away, I would have been able to play probably. So I came back and I stood on the sidelines during that practice and I was, so pissed off at like everybody. And the following week, I ended up

playing. And a really cool thing with that is I ended up playing the last four games of my career and played some of the best football in my life. And it was really cool to have that opportunity. I knew it was the universe giving me this last little opportunity to play the game I loved. And knowing, because if I wouldn't have played, I would have been like, I don't know if I was washed up or anything, but I played the best football and I knew I was walking away on my own terms, which felt really, really good. Okay. You got to go out on your shield.

Yeah. No better way. Yeah. Yeah. That's important. Yeah. I think having no chance at playing football, I mean, I saw the writing on the wall my senior year when I was still third string, you know, like after all of training camp. And what was cool for me was like being scout squad, every practice was my fucking game, you know, because I was going against the starters.

So I was like, I'm going to fucking take it to you guys because I got nothing to lose. I remember guys like you would do. They were like, fuck this guy. I got to play a game and this guy's beating my ass. I don't give a fuck, dude. I'm going 100% and I'll make you better for it you know and uh there was kind of a love-hate relationship with drew hodgdon who was center at asu because i'd always fucking try to smash him and he's like you're jumping the call i'm like fucking go on

account two or account three then you fucking keep hiking hiking on the same fucking count yeah i'm gonna fucking do whatever i can to smash your ass yeah driving back in the quarterback five yards back shit like that he ended up playing for the tex. Um, not an issue. He was really good. And, and, and so that there was some, there was some pride in that for me, but it was like, uh, it was really hard to sit and not know, you know what I'm saying? And then if I came in like for, for a play in the third quarter on fucking punt return and just get earhold by some linebackers flying down the field and like, what the fuck am I doing here? But that was a big reason to get into fighting for me because that chip was still on my shoulder.

It's really cool that you got to transition in the way that you did. At what point when you retired, where did you start? I mean, you did a lot of searching, right? At what point do you find yourself in a van traveling around the world? At what point do you get introduced to plant medicines? Talk about that process and leaving the game because it's a big process for a lot of people. Yeah. I mean, I'm somebody that really had everything planned. I got to really, like I said, experience the presence of knowing this was going to be my last year playing. There was a part of me that was really excited about the potentials of this freedom that I got to explore. Like I said, I went through a massive breakup with my fiance at the time,

a woman that I really deeply loved. And when I told her that I was planning on walking away, she was like, no, no, you're not. What are you talking about? And that's when I started realizing like, okay, it's not just me lost with this identity of being a football player, but the people that view me and love me, they only know me as a football player. And some of them are attached even more than I am to the idea of being around a football player. And so I wanted to know who I was outside of the game. And after my final game, the finality of it hit,

it was like the deepest grief I've ever experienced. And I was really unprepared for that. And felt really isolated, felt really alone, felt really ungrounded. It was kind of a strange for my parents at the time because they didn't really understand. And there's a whole religious component we can get into with that as well.

And so, you know, I figured, you know, I don't really know where to go. I knew I didn't want to stay in Tampa because once the team started playing again I didn't want to be around like just watching and from my couch and so intuitively I was like you know what I think a road trip would be really good hit the road and just go explore and travel and so I ended up giving away all my possessions to charity I ended up watching a documentary called minimalism as well on Netflix.

And I started reading books like probably three or four years before I was done and started opening my mind to these different spiritual concepts. You know, even meditation was as a Christian. My dad used to say it's Eastern mysticism. It's the way the devil finds its way into your mind and all this stuff. So I had a lot of resistance to anything, a lot of fear. And when all the CTE stuff came out halfway through my career, it developed a deep underlying fear of not if I've damaged my brain,

but how bad I've damaged my brain and what is early onset dementia? What is going crazy actually like, you know, Junior Sale killed himself and like all this stuff that was happening. I was like, I don't want that to be me. And so I knew I had to be proactive with my brain health. And that's when I started learning about meditation. And I remember, I think it was Tim Ferriss was talking about psilocybin and mushrooms. And I saw some research.

So these fMRI scans of these brains and all the neuro connections that happened on psilocybin and mushrooms. And I saw some research of these fMRI scans of these brains and all the neuro connections that happened on psilocybin and the neurogenesis, neuroplasticity. And I just started learning about, because we were taught when we were younger, like when you lose brain cells, you can't build them back, right? And all this new research was coming out. I was like, okay.

And so when I hit the road, it was just going to be a few months to go explore. And I ended up traveling for close to two years and you know eight months into that road that first road trip in my van I was having a lot of fun I was traveling around I was going to a lot of baseball games

I was just connecting with a lot of people I was sharing my journey through a blog I started called Man Van Dog Blog and there's an article on USA Today so a bunch of people were following me. And so it was a lot of fun and got to experience it. But I realized I don't want to just be a travel van life influencer. I'm meant for something more. There's something more for me out here. And I intuitively knew that, but I didn't know what. And eight months into that

first road trip, I think it was towards the end of the fall, it was like October, I was heading back east towards Tampa. It was starting to get cold again. And I was like, I don't want to be in the van during the winter time. But like, what do I do next? And I started really confronting the transition

at that point. Part of me, I'm really grateful that I didn't, I kind of created a new identity with the blog and the travel thing. So I got to like delay the deeper questions of, what do I do now? And I'll never forget, halfway through that road trip is when my brother-in-law actually recommended Aubrey's book, Own the Day, Own Your Life. And I read that and then I started listening to Aubrey's podcast.

So I listened to a few of them and I'll never forget, I was heading back East and I had a long day on the road ahead of me. And I remember like really thinking like, what now, what do I do? And, you know, I asked God, like, what am I supposed to do now? And I don't want to just travel, you know, the rest of my life. There's gotta be a deeper purpose for me.

I was like, you know what, it'll come to me. And I was like, I'll just throw on this podcast and I threw on one of Aubrey's podcasts and it was right at the intro he started talking about Fit for Service and I just knew in my heart I'm like I'm supposed to do that like I know that's what I'm supposed to be doing

so I traveled home ended up applying to Fit for Service and got in and that was something that really, really changed my life because one of the biggest things as an athlete, you know, there's three things that all athletes really face. It's loss of identity, loss of purpose,

and loss of community. And being on the road, I got to really spend a lot of time with myself. I was listening to a lot of podcasts, reading a lot of books, meditating, being out in nature, but I was really thirsty for community. And Fit for Service really filled that role and helped me on my path in a really big way. And yeah, I started working socially with mushrooms. I remember the first time I did mushrooms because I had a lot of fear growing up in a Christian faith around mushrooms.

I remember hearing stories of like, you can see like evil spirits and like fire and brimstone. And like, I'd be careful with these mind altering substances and all these stories. And I remember, I think it was at my seventh, end of my seventh year in the off season. I really wanted to try them. And I remember my girlfriend at the time, my fiance, her brother-in-law had a bag of mushrooms. We were up in Colorado in Crested Butte. And I was like really interested in trying them. But nobody else wanted to do them.

And they were all going skiing and I was still playing football. So I was like, I don't want to go skiing. I was like, can you give me some of the mushrooms? Like, yeah. So I ate a few caps and stems and my fiance just ended up, she didn't do them with me, but she kind of like sat for me and I just went outside and I was walking around waiting for these mushrooms to hit me

and it was in Crested Butte, I'll never forget. It was just snow on the ground, these beautiful mountains all around me. And I was like nervous, like what's gonna happen, you know? And it was the most beautiful connection to the present moment. It was like all of my mind and thoughts like i never actually like experienced pure presence before and that's what it did it dropped me out of all the stories and narratives and just dropped me into the present moment i saw

the mountains and just connected to this this creation and the spirit and it felt like this connection to god that I had never experienced. And that's one thing that, you know, religions really don't teach. And they actually, in a way, try and keep you from an actual experience of God. And to have that experience was really, really beautiful and ended up getting me more open to that. Ended up trying LSD for the first time

a few months later at a festival. And then I did MDMA at a festival as well. And that was the first time I had a real deep heart opening experience. And I started taking MDMA quite a lot. Not a lot, but I was doing it and I was realizing, okay, this, and it's never as good as the first time.

That's what I realized with that stuff too. I was like, why isn't it as good? But I started realizing, okay, how do I access this depth of love and openness and presence without needing this substance? And that's when I really started diving in and learning, like you can access this stuff with meditation and presence. And so that's when I started really going down the spiritual path in that way. And then I got into and tried ayahuasca for the first time down in Sultara in 2019. And, you know, since then I've done, done deep work with,

with a lot of different plant medicines and really learning the sacredness and the, the, the lineage and the reverence for these, these medicines that have been around for so long and the power that they have and really shifting, shifting and expanding, not just spiritually, but, you know, physiologically, like the brain. And yeah, man, it's been really, really powerful and really, really, really stoked about where I'm at now and really serving and working on providing these types of experiences for former athletes specifically. I'm really, really passionate about helping athletes in the transition. Because one thing I found when I was done playing was there's not a ton of resources that the NFL provides for the transition because one thing I found when I was when I was done playing was

there's not a ton of resources that the NFL provides for the transition I mean what they really do is hey we'll help you build a resume so you get another job but what guys really need is a safe space to really grieve and feel and it's so fascinating it's a part of a bigger systemic collective issue that we have of like not being connected to our emotions and that's there's so much power in the healing potential of just being able to access and feel the depth of of what's coming up and not suppressing it and um you know the medicines have really helped me access that those emotions and being able to feel them and and process them and move through them and it's really allowed me to let go of a lot of those stories and um something i'm really passionate about providing for for athletes moving forward and uh doing retreats

and stuff like that yeah it's such a big point you know and it's it's something that the medicines do offer in a really incredible way you know like in in you know an mdma ceremony is different from an mdma festival or an mdma party you know, that rave, something like that. And I love the party, you know, don't get me wrong. Finding your way back in the bag of eating. Give me some gummers and top off at Burning Man, baby. Let's go. That's all fucking fun. And it's a better way to celebrate in my mind

than many other drugs, including alcohol, which is a drug. But that said, like the access to the emotions, you know, Martine Prechtel is one of my favorite authors, medicine man from New Mexico. I'll link to these two books in the show notes, one of which is called The Unlikely Peace at Cuchamacique. It's a mouthful, easily one of my favorite books of all time. And then the other one, which is a little bit more entry level, if you've never heard of him, is The Smell of Rain on Dust. And one of the things he talks about in that book is that grief is something like as a culture we have disconnected from. We've forgotten the grieving process. And you know, oh, those are the five stages of grief. And we have the fucking psychological, you know, access points of how we're supposed to move through this. But no one's fucking taught that. And you can go Google it right now.

Cool beans, dude. How do I fucking express grief when I've been taught my whole life to turn away from it? You know? And grief is not just somebody like dying that's close to you. We experience death all the time. And so death is a story. And a psychological death is just,

it brings up just as much grief as somebody dying close to you because there's a void there. And that's what I'm grateful I to you because there's a void there. And that's what I'm grateful I got to experience at such a young age. I got to the point where I basically made enough money to buy anything I'd ever wanted as a kid. I got to this point where I was like, I've accomplished everything that's supposed to make me happy and it feels like there's still something missing.

And when I walked away to go explore that, I realized I'm leaving behind this entire aspect of who I am. And that grief that was presented in that was very real. And it's something I'm leaving behind this entire aspect of who I am. And that grief that was presented in that was very real. And it's something I'm still integrating and still taking through. And I think it's something as we move through this collective paradigm shift we're moving through, everybody is going to have to let go at some point on some level of who they thought they needed to be and what they were told success looks like or happiness looks like. And in order to really do that, in order to heal collectively,

we need to learn to grieve properly. Absolutely, brother. How have, I mean, you guys are, it's funny not to keep bringing up fit for service. I'm not trying to plug it. Shameless plug. But you guys are the star players, you know, because when we talk about like

how many friendships have been made, like lifelong friends, that's 100%. How many business have started? It's like 50%. There's lots of cool shit that happens there from the community itself. But anyone who's met their partner in fit for service and had a kid, like to me, that's the fucking Holy grail. It's the holiest of holiest, you know, it's the best, the very best of the best. Like it's your life partner, you know, like there's no, there's nowhere else I know where you're like, yeah, man, I took this job at Yahoo and I found my fucking life partner. And that's happened more than once where Yahoo can claim that, you know, or fucking IBM, like, no, nobody's fucking doing that at IBM. You know what I'm

saying? So like, talk a bit, a little bit about how that's, that's helped in your life. What are some of the, what are some of the challenges you've come across as a father? And what are some of the gifts that you've received as a father? And what is the direction you want to take with being a dad now and everything that you've learned? Yeah, it's really changed my life in every way possible. I mean, I was nomadic for a few years, joined Fit for Service in 2019. And my wife, Sarah, my partner now, she was in Fit for Service 2019 as well the whole year. And what's fascinating is we had a lot of the same friends and a lot of the same, because there's 150 people in that. So naturally you're kind of drawn to certain people in certain groups. And

we had a lot of the same friends, but we had never actually connected that whole first year together. And there's actually a picture of that Tulum retreat where we all went to dinner after the retreat was over and there's probably like 25 people there. And there actually a picture of that Tulum retreat where we all went to dinner after the retreat was over and there's probably like 25 people there and there's a picture of me and her with like one person between us and but we had never talked to each other we we never even really like she knew who I was I didn't really even know who she was uh which is really fascinating and then we ended up after that year was over uh Alex Nelson was putting together a little mushroom retreat uh for some people it was like 15, 20 people up there, a little intimate experience.

And he invited me and Sarah both to come host some workshops for him. And that was the first time me and Sarah really connected. And that was two weeks. I think it was like first weekend of March, 2020. And so that was when the pandemic was like, like the COVID-19 was talked about. I remember flying on a plane and I don't watch the news

and all those TV screens on the plane, you know? And so CNN was on like three seats in front of me and I was like looking at it. And I remember having my Instagram out and I took a little video of it. And I said, is this not fear mongering? And I like looked at it and I was like, global pandemic, 30 people sick.

And I was like, you guys, it's right there. 30 people are sick and they're calling it a global pandemic. Little did I know, like two weeks later, the whole world would shut down, which is fascinating. So me and Sarah connected on that retreat and I was actually going to be down. I was traveling the whole month of March

and she was going to be down in Austin. She lived in Colorado two weeks later. And I was like, unfortunately, I'm not going to be there, but we'll find time to connect. We like had this connection and we knew something was going to happen. And then two weeks later, when I was traveling, like all of my stuff started getting canceled and end up being like, hey, I'm going back to Austin. And she's like, okay, all my stuff that I was supposed to be in Austin for got canceled, but I'm going to come down and see you. And so she came down and we went on our first date and it was like right when everything was getting shut down.

And there was like nobody at the restaurant. Like nobody really knew what was going on yet. And she stayed over that night. And the next morning she woke up and she said, hey, it looks like shit's getting pretty crazy out there. I'm telling everybody that we're going to be locked down. She's like, what should I do? Should I stay here?

Should I go home? And little did I know that decision was going to change the rest of my life because I was like, you know what? It's only a couple of weeks locked down. Why don't you just stay here? And so she stayed over at my house and we locked down together and two weeks turned into four weeks. And so the story goes. Three months later, she was pregnant, which is crazy. We actually went to an ayahuasca ceremony together in Colorado. And in that ceremony, she had a vision of Luca who came to her.

And she went through a really intense experience of having to basically go through this massive ego death of who she was in order for this soul to come to her. And she was nervous about telling me this after the ceremony because she was like, what's he going to think? I've only known this guy for three months. And she basically was like, hey, I need to tell you about this experience. This kid came to me and said, I want you and Joe to be my parents.

And I sat with that. I was like, fuck. I feel that. I feel that energy. I started feeling this like father archetype start coming online within me. And like two days later, she and I'm coming home from a grocery store

and she's like, hey, this really weird experience happened to me. She said, you know, when I work with ayahuasca, it messes up my cycle sometimes. But I was at the store and this old guy randomly was like, I know a mother when I see one, the way you're holding that basket. She's like, what the fuck? And so she went, bought two pregnancy tests and she came home and she's like, hey, like, I don't think I'm pregnant, but I want

to take this test because this weird thing happened. And she ended up doing the P test and she was pregnant. And that was really, really powerful. And, you know And it's one of those things I went from being nomadic, really not wanting to settle down at all to this really divine experience that changed my life in every way possible. And it's really cool because I think the normal trajectory of life is like you date someone for long enough

and you get married and then you have kids. It wasn't that, it was this soul came to us and chose us. And so it felt like something so much bigger than me. And I sat with that and obviously it was a huge life-changing experience and had to process that. And, you know, I'm grateful that the universe gives us nine months to process before

the baby comes. And yeah, and that first year was really, really challenging. You know, it's just the portal opens and I'm really grateful. It's actually fascinating. I think one of the things that really prepared me for that first year of fatherhood was my football career and the mental toughness that I developed and the ability to push myself outside my comfort zone and, and like lack of sleep and all of that, that you have to deal with as a father. Cause I know a couple other people who've been having kids over the last couple of years. And father's like really struggling with that first year. Cause you got to support not just yourself and being tired, but you have to support, you know,

your woman and the kid and this, all these things. and you just, you're just trying to hang on. And I really thrived in that because I had so much training before. It's not for the faint of heart. It's definitely an initiation. You know, Luca just turned two a few weeks ago and he's really starting to come online. And as a father, you know, that first year is not a lot of, not a lot of rewards for the father. It's, you know, the, the, the kid The kid is really focused on everything around mom. So it's really just a selfless service role. And now getting to a point where Luca is starting to show me love and saying daddy and coming over and hugging me. And I'm really starting to connect with the ability to raise this little one in a new way and, you know, contemplating and

questioning deep, deep stories. You know, there's one thing to do this healing journey and letting go of, you know, traumas with your parents and how you were raised and all these like personal experiences, but to start questioning collective paradigms and what we're told about how the world works and spiritually and all these things. When you have a kid, you really confront that in a big way. How do I want to raise this kid? How do I want him to be in the world?

What do I want the world to look like? And how am I being called to really support him and support the environment that he's going to grow up in? And it's really anchored in this knowing that there's real deep work ahead. And I don't think there's any greater role in the world than being a parent and being a father. And especially in this collective societal environment, I think one of the big things that's healing collectively right now is the masculine energy. And it's just really, really unhealthy masculine presence, not just like individually, but collectively. And so being able to lead the change in that way is really,

really deep work. And, you know, I think one of the things that's really lacking and one of the things that I'm really passionate about cultivating and bringing back into our society and culture in a big way is the lack of rite of passage experiences, especially for young boys moving into manhood. And so without those experiences, like a lot of indigenous cultures, they have and they intuitively knew psychologically how to build better humans and more mature men and warriors. And because we don't have any rite of passage experiences, we have a lot of insecure, immature, egocentric leaders and a lot of little boys walking around in grown men bodies, psychologically underdeveloped because they hadn't gone through a rite of passage and what happens in a rite of passage is is a a contained experience of the the

death rebirth process and it's an opportunity for the the archetype of the boy to die and be welcomed back into the tribe as a man and this usually happens around puberty and because we lack this rite of passages in our culture and our society, that this is what it's leading to. And so if you could really point back to one issue and one reason we are where we're at collectively is because of that in our society. And so I've become really passionate about facilitating retreat experiences and really being a part of not just the conversation,

but really helping bring forth and reintroducing these processes into our reality in a big way. Yeah, brother. That's massive. It's massive. Something I've been into myself. And yeah, it's interesting when we think of the modern leaders, especially as it pertains to the masculine. There's all the shit talking around patriarchy and all the shit talking around, you know, toxic masculinity and stuff like that. And it's like, we're all finger pointing at the thing that's wrong. What was the thing that's right?

Which cultures did it right? Where they had men in right relation with the feminine, where the feminine was honored and men protected and harnessed the best of their abilities, the way to lead going forward, the way to protect going forward and the way to provide going forward. And I think those are the qualities that are needed. If we only look at the

dark side of what we see in the world right now, we don't point out what to do correctly, right? So we have to track that. What is the correct way? Or how has it been done in the past where it was better than it's been done now, at the very least, right? It's not to um glorify you know indigenous culture or ancestral culture versus the modern life but there are certain things that we have to take with us right like in ken wilber's model of uh of uh spiral dynamics i don't even know if he came up with that i know there's a few people that work on that model but um infinite spiral staircase you know we transcend and include you transcend but you include each level right and we're stuck in this mental phase right now where scientism has gone off the fucking wheels. And in many ways, we live in a godless society, right? Because of the disconnect religion has

made for many people. There's an excellent book. I mentioned it on a podcast previous, you would fucking love it. It's called Not In His Image. And it's by John Lamblash, I'm going to try to get on the podcast he's in his 70s now um he's he's fucking fantastic he's one of the few gnostic scholars that breaks down the gnostic story completely differently than anyone else and um really tries to bridge the gap into this idea of deep ecology where we we see the divine in all things the way indigent all indigenous cultures across every fucking continent did, including the 1500 tribes that made up the Celtics, the Celtic nation in Europa before it was Europe. 1500 different fucking tribes participated in that.

And they were called pagans later. But pagan meant animist, meant someone that worshiped the divine in nature, the divine you can see that's tangible. And that is the same understanding Sophia is the same understanding as gaia right and if we can mirror those those stories then we have technology to work with and anybody that's done ayahuasca understands like it's a fucking earth medicine you know like you're drawn to work with the planet's interior uh and that interior knowledge is is a deep deep knowledge it's not it's not it's it's not something where you're like you know for for for the richard dawkins of the world who finger point and say shit you know yeah is a deep, deep knowledge. It's not something where you're like, for the Richard Dawkins of the world who finger point and say shit,

yeah, it's just a chemical experience in your brain. You're dreaming it up. It's like, I'm dreaming up shit that I had no idea existed, right? I'm fucking seeing trees come to life and I'm seeing their soul. I'm seeing their auric field and I'm witnessing the divine in everything, right?

That's an important fucking experience to have. Yeah, that's the thing is when you have that experience, nobody can take it away from you. Ever. You know, and that's what all the religions is. Like all religions are built around a being's individual experience of the divine and they've had an experience,

whether you talk about the Buddha or Jesus, they understood and had a connection where they felt deeply connected to this loving presence of all that is. And they started sharing that message. And what happens with religions is it gets built and calcified around somebody else's experience. And the religion's built around worshiping and idolizing this person that was able to deeply connect with that experience of God. And it's fascinating 2,000 years, how we're still attached to this thing and worshiping and idolizing this man.

And we're losing touch with what he was actually saying is I am the way, the truth and the light. Like I am, I am, we all are that experience. And religions keep you separated from an experience of God. But when you go through and work with, you know, something like this plant medicines, where you have a deep experience and it develops no longer a need for belief,

it becomes a knowing and nobody can take that away from you. You know, and I have conversations with my parents about their beliefs and it's really, really challenging because they're like trying to tell me what I believe and it's like, I don't need belief anymore. Like, no matter what you say, like you can't take this away from me. Yeah, Carl Jung said that famously at the end of his life, somebody asked him if he believed in God.

And he said, I don't believe. I know. Simple as that. Mic drop. What do you see? What do you see coming up now? You know, we've been through a lot of shit in the last few years. You and Sarah got some fucking land.

I was so happy. I know you're holding down the fort watching Luca get some good daddy time. We had Sarah out here for our first Permaculture 101 event. And I was really happy we got to take a deep dive on your land specifically on the final day with Chad Johnson. That was really fucking cool. Because the whole point of it was we knew we were going to come in at a loss in this first one, but let's get marketing materials. Let's fucking hype the game and let's see that it's going to work going forward. And it did, it was fucking awesome. But, um, you know, really getting to deep dive, like what are the contours? What does your lake look like? How does all these things spring fed? Okay, cool. Can we take water from that and use

that for the food for us? And it was really cool to see that. Talk about what you guys want to create, um, on your land and where you see, you know, your life going forward. Yeah. Yeah. It's really exciting. And I'm really grateful you guys put that together and I'm excited to see. I mean, what you guys are doing out here is freaking incredible. And Sarah's been getting into permaculture and she actually took an online permaculture course and she was going to a different farm

just over the last couple of months. And she really, really got a lot out of what you guys put together. And I think it was Permaculture 101. She was like, I think it was like more 201, 301. You guys are really providing a lot of value. And it really expanded her in a deep way. And I think for Sarah, one of the things that is really cool about that experience is how much it shifted her life.

I mean, she's always intuitively been deeply connected to the earth and to plants and has always had a vision of building community. Even 20 years ago, she talks about it. And then she's, you know, became a really badass entrepreneur and really finding a lot of success and really chasing, you know, talk about that unhealthy masculine energy. Like it was really like going down that path and it became really stressful for her.

And then, you know, over the last couple months, she's let go of the business identity, which is a really powerful experience for her. And she's gone full-time mom. We were working with a nanny the majority of our time. And she realized like, it's my responsibility to really be around Luca, especially during these formidable years.

And so she's been going full-time mom and she's in a way like really struggled with that. And it was really, she was having a lot of resistance of it needing to be a certain way. And like, there was like judgment of it was really, she was having a lot of resistance of it needing to be a certain way. And like, there was like judgment of like, oh, he needs to go to bed on time or am I feeding him right?

And like all these things, instead of just really trusting and letting go of that resistance and the experience of her coming out here and connecting with the land and connecting with the vision of what we're building out in our land and getting out of the city

and really being back out in nature and her being out here, like her energy has completely shifted in such a beautiful way. So I'm just deeply grateful for what you guys are doing here. Cause it's so healing, just being out in nature and connecting with those frequencies.

And so for our land, yeah, it's been a really, really beautiful experience. We're actually going to be out there full time. We have a house out there that's getting remodeled right now. And, you know, Sarah's really focused on the permaculture side of things and getting the land going

and doing very similar things out here, getting the food forest going, being able to create a regenerative farm, growing our own food, and really connecting with how we're fed and collectively and the food system in our country. It's really, really fascinating. Even organic food, there's this glyph fascinating. Even like organic food, like there's

this glyphosate and poison and everything, like it's in the air. And so even if you think you're eating healthy, it's nothing compared to what it can be if you're growing your own food. And so for me, focused on connecting deeper to spirit and to presence and really getting this instrument that is the human body fully, finely tuned. I can't really do that if I'm not feeding it really good nutrients. And even the component of what I'm really excited about with growing my own food and growing our own food is the relationship with the plants. And all of the research and science of if you go to a plant, we're growing little seedlings in our house under the light right now to kind of get them started before we plant them and like going

and and sending love into those plants and like you can literally track there's like studies shown of how that affects the plant life and how they become alive and so growing an entire food forest and being able to walk in the soil and connect energetically with the plants like they're gonna provide the exact nutrients and energy that that we need to fuel our bodies in the best way and I can't even imagine right now what type of expansion and present presence and connection spiritually that that's gonna lead to another thing I'm really passionate about is is really you know running retreats out there in that space you know I really see it as not just a place for us to go and start a community outside of society

and it's like kind of commune idea, but really opening it up as a place of inspiration, a place of healing, a place for people that can come from all over and see a new way of being, new way of living. It's really an old way and see a new way of being, a new way of living. You know, it's really an old way and just a remembering of who we are and what we're here to do.

And I'm just really grateful to being called to facilitate and bring forth a vision for a brighter future and really grateful for allies such as you. And, you know, I know Carrie and Sarah, we're talking about doing you know like a like a co-op where all the all the properties that are popping up around town we can all really support each other for fucking foreman voltron baby let's go yeah man so i'm i'm just i'm here to learn like i this is all so new to me i'm i'm every day i'm feeling this deeper

calling to to get more connected to the land and connected to the vision out there. And, you know, I'm just, I'm here to learn. I'm humbled by it all. And I have no idea what I'm doing. I'm really grateful for guys like you who are like taking it full force and being out here every day. And I know you've learned a ton over the last couple of years and just continuing to absorb all the knowledge of these ancient indigenous ways.

And I plan on learning a ton from you and continuing to open source this and share it with whoever is ready to listen and then be a part of this shift that we're moving through. Fuck yeah, brother. Well, we are blessed to have you on the squad, my man. Absolutely blessed. Thanks, brother.

Yeah, brother. You got any travel coming up? Anything on the schedule? What's next? Man, I've been full force in building this vision. One of the things that I'm really passionate about is healing within community. It's one thing I learned from Fit for Service is it's one thing with all of this stuff coming online with the psychedelic movement and the FDA approval. And it's all really exciting. But part of me is,

I don't think these medicines were meant to be used in a one-on-one situation in psychoassisted therapeutic way where you're sitting on a couch and you're going in and there's a lot of- You're going to love that podcast. I'm going to link this in the show notes. There's a podcast I had that recently sent to me from my homie, Ryan Anderson out in Arizona, fire department dude, fucking badass, who's deep in the game, loves the plant medicines. And he found this guy, Robert Forte, who did a podcast in 2018. I'll link's deep in the game, loves the plant medicines. And he found this guy,

Robert Forte, who did a podcast in 2018. I'll link to it in the show notes, but it's excellent because it's speaking to this exact fucking, the conundrum we're in where it's like shit becomes available, but it's not in the right relation, right? It's not done in the indigenous way. And it's almost, you know, according to him and some certain conspiracy that is very trackable on purpose, right? And Aldous Huxley spoke of this in Brave New World. We'd find a way to create a drug, which Big Pharma is looking at right now, that has only positive effects.

There's no bad trip, right? And the truth of it is, if you've ever had a bad trip, you realize that was one of the most probably profound experiences of your life. If it was, I mean, if you're drinking alcohol and mushrooms, that's a different bad trip. But if you have a challenging experience where you got to face some shit you've locked away in your closet for 20 years and you're able to move through that, that can change your life. That can be a fucking weight lifted off your chest for the rest of your life. Yeah. It's a revealing of what's inside of you and being able to process and move through it. So if you take that away and we recreate Soma the way it's described in Brave New World,

where it's just a fucking numbing patch patch you basically slap on anytime shit goes wrong, feel better, feel good. Enjoy the fucking sprays of perfect perfumes in the air and the essential oils and the right fucking angelic sounds that we play on speakers publicly. And it's just this anesthetizing. I didn't say that word right, but I'm not going to retry it. Anesthetizing? I'm throwing in too many THs now. All right. Anyways, you get what the fuck I'm saying. And it's to do that very thing. It's to calm us. It's to keep us quelled. It's to keep us to not give a fuck about what's happening in the world. It's to keep us not looking or asking questions around what fucking happened in COVID, right? Don't look at this. Look at the Ukraine now.

Don't look at that. You look at UFOs now, right? And it's like fucking distraction after distraction after distraction. Fuck all that noise. Pay attention, right? Don't tune out and use the stuff to awaken us to deeper remembrance that this whole thing is consciousness. The whole thing is, how do we interact with that?

What is the right relation with all things? And I think that's an important piece, but I'll'll link to that and i sent it to you earlier before we jumped on the podcast with robert forte because it's definitely speaking to what you're talking beautiful yeah i'm going to check it out yeah one thing you know speaking to the always wanting to feel good right and like expand and reach for higher levels of awareness and love and openness and something like mdma experience right you're like full love open heart like how do i stay in this as much as possible? And that's one thing I was chasing.

But what Carl Jung says, that the tree can only reach into the heavens as far as the roots go down into hell. And what I've found with that is the roots that are going down into hell, that's grief. And when you actually learn to deeply access and surrender and feel into the depth of what grief actually is,

what you'll find is it's the root of that is just the deepest depth of love. And so when you're looking to expand into these expansive spiritual connection to God, loving moments, love everything, that's the tree going up. And in order for that to expand, you need to go deep into your grief because that's love as well. But it feels like a void until you get to the center of it and i know you've had these experiences where you've you reached the depth of your grief and all of a sudden like all these stories unwind i've had deep healing experiences with my parents specifically where i've had so much anger and resentment just built up unconsciously from them from these different experiences i couldn't know why they're

living in my unconscious and plants have really helped me access those. And I've had these experiences where going into the depth of that grief, I just feel the resentment and anger just unwind in my psyche because I was able to just dive into that grief. And that's such a beautiful thing. Don't just chase the good.

The bad is love as well. And it's found in that. And so, you know, one thing I'm really passionate about, what I'm working on now is healing within community and the power found in that. And so, you know, one thing I'm really passionate about, what I'm working on now is healing within community and the power that community has. And so I'm launching my own community right now in the process, we're actually accepting applications. It's called the Heart Collective

and really focused on serving high impact leaders, entrepreneurs, influential visionaries, people who really have with their ability to create businesses and the influence that they have, facilitate actual change in the world and bringing those people together to have deep experiences of connection with themselves, connection with each other and connection with nature

so that we can really focus on coming together and facilitating real change collectively. And what's unique about this community is the importance of rite of passage, like I speak to you about earlier. And one of the things that really brought and brings the fit for service community together so much is the in-person experiences and the vulnerability and the shedding of all the stories of who we think we needed to be or the facades and the

personas that we wear and getting to the root of, oh, this is my heart. And when you're able to be around in community where you're able to shed all that stuff through different experiential processes, like breath work or creating sacred space and doing journal exercises that God brings us through, like talking about our shame and realizing like, wow, we're all so much more alike than we are different. And without those experiences,

you can't really build community. And so the community, the Heart Collective, what we're gonna do, I've been doing these wilderness expedition retreats, whitewater rafting the last couple of years have been super powerful and profound. And out of all the medicine retreats I've done, plant medicine, men's work, yoga retreats,

like fit for service, like all of these things have been super powerful and profound. I went on this river a few years ago and just being deeply immersed in nature without any substance at all, like the pure presence and connection to just that dimension of reality

that's just so rare to find and be able to be present with nowadays with all the distractions was some of the most powerful medicine I've ever been a part of. And I had a vision when I was out there three years ago, it was just a whitewater rafting expedition that I went on. Sarah was going with a couple of friends

that I tagged along with her. This is like in 2020. And I had a vision out there. I was like, man, if I could facilitate a retreat type of experience out here, it'd be epic. And I ended up telling that vision to one of the guides on the trip who ended up being one of the owners of this company.

And he ended up selling me his permits. So we've been doing these retreats the last couple of years and they've been really profound. So we're gonna use these retreats as a rite of passage experience into the community. So we're calling in 40 founding members to build this thing. And I got two river rafting expeditions this summer. And so we're gonna take those members out on the river.

We're gonna go through this experiential process of being really deeply connected and immersed in nature. We're gonna shed those layers of who we think we need to be. We're gonna initiate the power and the energy of our hearts and then we're going to come together and really talk about how we can facilitate real change in the world

by the things that we're doing. Fuck yeah. The wind agrees. You know it, brother. Dude, it's been fucking so great finally getting you on the podcast. Where can people find you? Where can people learn more

about the Heart Collective and everything that you guys are doing? Yeah, I appreciate it. Theheartcollective.com. It's H-A-R-T, heartcollective.com. You can follow me on Instagram, joe.holly. And then I have my podcast called Life Beyond the Game. Kyle was just on it.

We're talking some really good. Your story is incredible and what you're doing, man. And just really grateful for this time and this fellowship and this brotherhood and this allyship of really, I just feel deeply supported, man. And I just know these allies and this tribe is continuing to expand in a really beautiful way. And we can't do this alone, we can't do it in isolation. And it's gonna take every single one of us

to really bring forth this more beautiful world. Fuck yeah, brother. Beautifully stated. Thank you, my man. Thank you.