Kyle Kingsbury Podcast - #306 Psychedelic Schismogenesis w/ Robert Forte Part I

Episode Date: June 7, 2023

Psychedelic revolution or schismogenesis? Robert Forte is basically the Forrest Gump of the psychedelic world. He’s been in the game with some of the biggest names in psychedelic history, Grof, Leary, Shulgin, Stamets, Doblin, the list goes on.  In this conversation Robert lays out one of my favorite things in the world, an alternate narrative to the one we’ve been presented around psychedelics. Robert presents us with a deep history of psychedelics as a weapon on the American public. Some of the players are surprises to me and I think you’ll be as delighted as I was to hear the big name drop. The details are substantial, please dispel some disbelief and use your own discernment.    ORGANIFI GIVEAWAY Keep those reviews coming in! Please drop a dope review and include your IG/Twitter handle and we’ll get together for some Organifi even faster moving forward.   Connect with Robert: Website: Altered States of America - Altered States of America.Substack   Books: "Entheogens And The Future of Religion" -Robert Forte Facebook: Robert Forte    Show Notes: "Brave New World" -Aldous Huxley  "The Creature of Jekyll Island" - G Edward Griffin  More Deadly than War - G Edward Griffin(youtube) "Acid Dreams" -Martin Lee  "The Beast Reawakens" Martin Lee Schismogenesis: The Generations of schisms, creation of division "Mary's Mosaic" -Peter Janney  President John F Kennedy's Peace Speech "The Immortality Key" -Brian C Muraresku "The Secret Teachings of All Ages" -Manly P Hall "Outside Looking In" -TC Boyle  "The Road To Eleusis" -Gordon Wassan, Albert Hofmann   Sponsors: Mark Bell’s Mind Bullet This Kratom Extract supplement supports your cognition like no other and that’s not just because Mark’s a homie. Get some over at mindbullet.com and use “KKP” at checkout for 20% off! Ancestral Hunting School To learn many skills of survival and ancestral tradition, head over to ancestralhuntingschool.com, punch in “KKP” at checkout for 10% off! Cured Nutrition has a wide variety of stellar, naturally sourced, products. They’re chock full of adaptogens and cannabinoids to optimize your meatsuit. You can get 20% off by heading over to www.curednutrition.com/KKP  using code “KKP” Lucy Go to lucy.co and use codeword “KKP” at Checkout to get 20% off the best nicotine gum in the game, or check out their lozenge. To Work With Kyle Kingsbury Podcast   Connect with Kyle: Fit For Service Academy App: Fit For Service App  Instagram: @livingwiththekingsburys - @gardenersofeden.earth  Odysee: odysee.com/@KyleKingsburypod  Youtube: Kyle Kingbury Podcast  Kyles website: www.kingsbu.com - Gardeners of Eden site    Like and subscribe to the podcast anywhere you can find podcasts. Leave a 5-star review and let me know what resonates or doesn’t.

Welcome back to the show, everybody. I have a phenomenal guest, somebody who has been on my short list of must-haves from the moment my buddy Ryan Anderson set me up with him. My buddy Ryan out in AZ has been sending me podcasts on occasion that have never fallen short, so thank you, Ryan. I don't always have time to get around to them, but he kept hammering me on this one. He's like, you gotta listen,

you gotta listen. Send me, send me more than one. He's like, all right, listen to him on this one too. So I listened to one and I was like, holy shit. All right. All right. Now I got a rabbit hole, Robert Forte. And, um, I have just been absolutely blown away by some, but just by the fact that someone like him exists, somebody that's been in this space of the psychedelic Renaissance, really from the early days onward up until now, who understands it quite a bit differently than most people do and has a deep, a deep understanding of the history of this country and the trajectory we've been on. And we really unpack a lot of that in this podcast.

It is not for the faint of heart. I will tell you, you know, there's some things that we just skim right through, like this is all information you should know, and I do apologize for that. I will have Robert back on for sure. He had a one-hour hard out because I think he was at a funeral out in New Jersey where he's from. I think he does mention that on the podcast,

but there was reason for a hard out. I would not leave this at an hour long, setting him up with Paul Cech. There is no question that will be three to four hours long. And I'm going to have Robert back on, and I want to deep dive a few of these topics, in particular, the formation of the CIA and NASA with some of the folks that came over from Germany that were found and given high-paying, high-ranking jobs. And if this is the first time you've heard that, again, we're just going to graze over that as if you already know it.

Those are things that I want to unpack with greater detail. I want to unpack the history of MDMA with greater detail. And he has, if you've listened to him on other podcasts, some pretty detailed and fucking just not run-of-the-mill stories that flow with where we're at in that piece of the psychedelic renaissance. So I think one of the things that has drawn me the most to Robert is after listening to him, diving into some of his writing and the way that he can articulate and parallel between some of the bigger threats that we find in the world today, i.e. Brave New World versus 1984.

We talk Brave New World revisited it, or revisited it, there we go. We'll add in like 40 EDs at the end. I'm going to link to that in the show notes. It is not a super fast read, but it's also not a book. It's an essay. And it is very worth reading. It is very worth your time. It will put a lot of this stuff into context and a lot of where of that. I've talked about that with the fact that there's a, a, a camera on every streetlight, not every traffic light, every streetlight in my neighborhood has a camera on it. That's some 1984 shit. That's not, that's not stretching or bending the imagination to think of this as Orwellian. It is, uh, or at least, at least from Orwell's terms like that is it. But where they differ is in the totalitarian takeover of a 1984 scenario where big government and machine guns and boots to the throat take over. I'm not certain we're going to see that. And I don't think it's going to need to go that way from a takeover standpoint if we are to live in a dystopian future. I think it's more along lines with Brave New World in which we find ourselves seduced by convenience and the right smells and the newness of new things and the ease of everything that we just get lulled into this place of complacency and societal conformity. And Robert's views on those subjects are fucking phenomenal. So I'm going to unpack a lot more of that with him in the future as well.

We touch on these things in this podcast and I get a good history of him as I try to do on each podcast. Anytime it's a first time guest. So expect more from us in the future. You can write me your questions on Twitter. Don't DM me. I don't check that shit, but just write. Just say, hey, at Kingsboo, K-I-N-G-S-B-U. And look, we could fucking argue all day about the benefits and non-benefits of social media and who Elon Musk really is and all that shit.

I don't really give a fuck. I mean, it's yes, yes. And if you want to hit me up, that might be the easiest way to do it. So at Kings boo on Twitter, send me some questions. You want Robert and I to dive into on round two there and I'll read them there. And, uh, we'll, we'll dive into the, these topics because I know that this is, this is a podcast that will leave you wanting more and it's not meant to be a cliffhanger. This is a guy who I would absolutely just sit in front of and pull every thought that I can from his immaculate brain.

But we just didn't have time for that. So we will, I will make the time for that going forward. There are a number of ways you can support this podcast, share it with a friend, share it with somebody who's, who's maybe been on the fence about the directives behind plant medicines, just all of a sudden being unleashed. I've always wondered that. It's kind of weird that these things have been around for thousands of years, and yet all of a sudden in the 1960s, they just come online. Everyone's got access. Everyone knows about it. All the who's who within the media and professors and people of high-ranking status all of a sudden get on the train, and this is the next thing. This is what we're going to study. And then, you know, the mean government takes it away and makes it illegal. And now we can't study

these things anymore. And it's just, uh, something seemed a little off about that. And I love Robert's breakdown of it. So, uh, share this with a friend, anybody that you think would like this episode, uh, leave us a five-star rating with one or two ways the show's helped you out in life. And leave us your at handle on Instagram, Twitter, or Facebook, and we'll be able to easily get a hold of you. Organifi all year long. Organifi.com slash KKP is going to be giving you guys a free product from my favorite arsenal. I have a handful of them, so I actually don't know what that is. But surprise, surprise. you'll be gifted one.

And it really has not a lot of, you know, it's not a guessing game. If the better, the better the review, the better the chance you're going to win. We're selecting the best review each month and it's pretty simple. That's it. So, um, and then support our sponsors. Of course, that's the last one. That is the, that's it. Support our sponsors.

They make this show possible. They allow me to take the time necessary to dive deep into the work of these guests and pay my staff. You know, I've got a production manager. I've got a lot of things going on to make this show possible. And even though it's low production,

still costs money. And it really helps when you guys support these sponsors for me to cover the bills and costs associated with it. So I really appreciate that. Every single one of these sponsors is hand-se me. They can be gifted in and brought in by my homie, David, my assistant, but I'm going to do a pretty scrutinized check. And for everything that he says, you know, what do you think of these guys? I will say that there's quite a few that I say yes to, but most of them I'm saying no to most of them I'm saying, I don't fucking, I think it's just

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Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. I mean, I've, I've, I've, I've taken've taken uh again i mean pretty much the last six weeks have been uh some of the best six weeks in the past few years and they've also been just non-stop like i went to soltara with a great group and sat with ayahuasca for the first time in four years and then you know just got home and was like hit the ground running as a dad and and with work and catching up on that. We just got back from Montana for an event we threw out there. And that was absolutely incredible. Nice.

And it once again hit the ground running for podcast this week. So there's no real rest for integration, but it's been an awesome time. So you gave me some great homework. We were able to talk on the phone. I had heard you, um, uh, one of my, one of our mutual buddies, uh, Ryan sent, sent me a podcast that you were on and he kept bugging me about it, which I love because I knew I could tell like there's, there's, he sends me some podcasts at times. He sent me some great ones with Jamie wheel and different people, different thought leaders. And he kept sending you over and he sent me different ones from you. And I was like, I was like, all right, man, I will be honest. I haven't listened to these yet. And he's like,

just, just listen when you can. And so I finally did. And I was like, holy shit. All right, get them for me, please. We got to get them on the podcast. And, um, it's funny. I sent that off to a group of friends and different people in the podcast game and, and they're all chomping at the bit too. Paul check. Who's got a, it's, it's funny because we're both in the field. If you, you know, our subcategory is like health and wellness. Um, but for both of us, health and wellness is, is all of it. It's, it's physical, it's mental, emotional, it's spiritual psychedelics.

Definitely fall into that line and psychology and relationships and everything in between. So we, we, we certainly have a wide variety of guests on the show, but he's like in the top three in health and fitness and he was chomping at the bit for you. So I'd love to introduce you guys after this podcast ends. Okay. Um, you had me, you had me read a brave new world revisited and, um, and I've been going through some of your archives and there's a lot to chew on. But first I think, you know, the theme of my show really is just to get a background. Like, who are we talking to? How did you become the person you are today? And you've got a really cool background. Like you were a part of the who's who in this space for many years. And you're going to take us on the road less traveled in the sense that we're

going to talk about subjects that most people aren't privy to. When we think about this, it's all airy fairy rainbows and butterflies. And I think it's a really important discussion for people to hear. Yeah, fantastic. Well, I'm delighted to connect with you and I'm enjoying our mutual relationships and friends and our passion for this, for the general subject of health and well-being. And you rattled off a few things that health is, you know, psychological and physical, and it's also cultural. And so some of the things that I want to talk about are historical. And then I'm looking at, I'm looking at this part of my career. I'm mostly interested in what's happening sociologically, politically, culturally, with psychedelics, and just in general.

I mean, we are in an unprecedented time of human history. There are some really exceptional things happening, both good and rather horrifying. Okay? And, you know, my frame of reference is my lifetime. I'm 66 years old. I was born in 1956. I was a little bit too young to be involved in the first wave of psychedelia that happened. I was just, you know, I'm playing Little League Baseball in the 1960s when these drugs started flooding into our society. And as I said, it's kind of crazy for me. I'm sitting here in the Hilton Hotel in Woodcliffe Lake, New Jersey. When I was a kid, this was apple orchards and farmland and a country two-lane road. And now it's a four-lane virtual highway with Industrial Park, some of the largest

corporations in the world have set up their headquarters here. BMW, Mercedes-Benz, IBM, Ingersoll Rand, like that. So I was witness to this incredible growth of what I call rapacious capitalism, just chewing up nature. And at the same time, these drugs are being flooded into our country. I also have very early memories of the assassination of John Kennedy. I was five or six years old and what happened there. And so some of the things I want to talk about today have to do with the reemergence of a potential Kennedy administration. I don't know how closely you're following that, but your friend Aubrey Marcus did a

very wonderful podcast with Bobby Kennedy, who I've had the great privilege and honor to get to know a little bit. And so his presidential campaign is not just a normal presidential campaign. It's actually a civil response to a coup d'etat that happened in the United States in 1963 when he was assassinated. And then final nail in the coffin when his brother was assassinated in 1968. And a lot of Americans, especially your age, are kind of unaware of what that was and these unsolved murders of President John Kennedy and Senator Robert Kennedy. And perhaps you heard Russell Brand a couple of weeks ago give a really, really fantastic interview. I'm glad you appreciate it. So these are the things I want to kind of get into.

Now me, I'm just a kid growing up here in this bucolic suburb of New Jersey. And one day, a stream where I used to play died. It was a place that was my paradise as a kid. It was full of frogs and salamanders and snakes. And one day, because of the construction, they rerouted something or they dumped something in the stream and it was dead. And I was mortified by this. And it kind of made me a radical environmentalist. Like, what is happening to our world? And I had a mystical experience down there and it was um very brief but my mother when i told her about it thought that i was smoking pot and i wasn't smoking pot but when

she said that to me i thought wow pot will do that so as soon as I could, I started smoking a little weed and it was very, very pleasant. And it's been an ally for me my entire life. I stayed away from psychedelic drugs because I saw what was happening to the kids that were taking them. They were spinning out were, it wasn't, it wasn't a good, the first wave here was not good. These kids became casualties. And I put psychedelic drugs on my list of things that I was never going to get involved with until I was in my third year of college when I was, I'd begun to study the history of religion. And I learned that psychedelic drugs, mushrooms in particular,

had a role in activating the religions of India, really yoga and meditation and all these techniques of Indian mysticism originate from the most ancient book, the Rig Veda, which was about a ceremony collecting these probably mushrooms and consuming them and having visions. So that just set me off. I realized, wow, that's the most interesting thing. And I was going to Columbia University in New York City, right over there across the river, and dove in. My first book was by Alan Watts and Timothy Leary, The Joyous Cosmology. And I thought, wow, this is fascinating.

And then just a whole series of coincidences and magical meetings. I moved to California to finish my degree. My professor was Timothy Leary's best friend who turned him on, who was also very saddened by what happened in the 60s and that we needed to somehow, you know, revitalize and reactivate this body of research wiser now from the mistakes of the 60s. And he said, Robert, you're, you know, why don't you do this? Why don't you do, he knew what I was interested in altered states and creativity and political awareness. And, and I was a very good student. And he said, you know, do this. And he prodded me to do things. And so I was, I met him. He liked me. He taught me and my friends how to make MDMA that was not illegal yet. And I began a pretty extensive underground program providing MDMA to therapists and select people all around the country

that developed into an international thing. And I turned on medical schools to try to get research going and really like revive psychedelic science wiser from the 60s. That's what occupied me from like 1980 to the mid-1980s. And then we saw the same thing happen. We saw this kind of sensationalism and the drugs being used outside of a sacred context. People kind of just recklessly popularized these drugs, one of them being a fellow named Rick Doblin, who maybe you've had on your show, or maybe we can drill into that a little bit. And so, you know, I'm just kind of riffing here, but that's a little bit of my background. You know, I have worked with practically everybody of any significance in this field. Houston Smith, the great historian of religion, was a participant

in the original Harvard project, was a very close friend and mentor to me. Mircea Eliade, one of the greatest historians of religion who started the field, the history of religions, was my mentor in graduate school. I learned LSD psychotherapy with Stanislav Grof. I was in therapy for a decade or more with Claudio Naranjo. And, you know, name somebody. And I either, Gordon Wasson, who was the major story that we should drill into, you know, the man who quote unquote discovered the mushroom was a man that I had a personal relationship with

and visited at his home many times and went through his archives. Oscar Janager, who spearheaded the major project in Los Angeles, turning on all these celebrities. I lived at his house. You know, it's crazy how deeply I got into this. And let me just say this before you ask a question. Because I'm going to say some things that are controversial,

that may annoy or alienate me from the contemporary psychedelic movement. I need to say this, that I have tremendous respect and love for psychedelic drugs and what they can do to expand and advance human consciousness. And at the very same time, I'm appalled in many cases with what is happening to them now with the commodification of them and the exploitation of them, the weaponization of them. And that this is one of the reasons that I'm coming out and giving these podcasts and meeting far out people like you that I have learned also are loving these substances and see what they can do better. Also really inviting critical analysis

of the status quo. So that's before my morning coffee. I love it. I love it. Yeah. It's, it's, uh, I could see why Ryan was just, you know, adamant about me finally getting to listen to you. Um, there's a lot we're going to dive deeply in here. I definitely want to dive into Rick Doblin, but perhaps we start from, you know, this original renaissance and Gordon Wasson and really what the time was like. I don't think, you know, as you talk about Bobby Kennedy and JFK, there is kind of a disconnect, you know, and we have to, I grew up, you know, in, in, uh, you know, with, with Bush senior and no new taxes and, and, uh, you know, the Reagan campaign and no, you know, don't do drugs and all this shit, the dare campaign. And then it was W and then it was all the things that we've, I've been a part of. And then kind of retroactively,

I had had to go back, you know, like nine 11 happened and there's some head scratching things that happened. Tower seven goes down. And then somebody's like, well, know, this post-war and what started happening with bringing over the Nazis that most people, you know, maybe they've seen that with NASA, but your connection to the CIA and some of these different things are definitely some of the big juicy topics I want to dive into today. Okay, cool. Far out. That's exactly what I want to talk about too.

So let's go back to, because I was talking on the phone with a journalist yesterday when I was driving down here and it, you know, to really understand where, what, where I'm coming from requires some prerequisites. It really requires, we have to, first of all, realize that just about, if you went to conventional schools in the United States, virtually everything in the last 60 years, virtually everything you've learned about modern American history is incorrect, is a psyop itself. Okay. So the post-war period, let's just start there. You know, the United States didn't defeat Hitler and win World War. The Allies didn't actually defeat the Third Reich and win World War II. And Hitler would bomb killed in his bunker.

And, you know, that whole story and that with we, the U.S. ally relationship, we were the good guys. That's not really what happened. It's a lot more complicated than that. And in a nutshell, what did happen is that it took a long time for the United States to enter the war. Even after Pearl Harbor, Pearl Harbor was what was the catalyzing event. But right up to that, people were, let's not fight that war. And the reason for that is, is that there were very powerful American forces that were pro, pro fascism. They were, they were part of the third Reich. Okay. Some of these men were, you mentioned like the Bush family and Alan Dulles and JP Morgan

and, you know, people that have studied this field. We, we know who the key players are, the fascist movement in America. OK, so the U.S. enters the war. The Third Reich is beginning to secretly infiltrate American society. And they begin a new form of warfare in the United States. It's a cycle. It's not a warfare of tanks and bombers. It's a psychological warfare and it's a beginning of an effort to erode the spirit of American independence, a certain kind of consciousness and anti-authoritarian point of view that American society was sort of based on. Now, this is where Aldous Huxley comes in. So there's a story. You see this in the psychedelic renaissance,

the big players in the psychedelic renaissance. You see this story repeated even on podcasts of some of your friends, like Joe Rogan or Aubrey Marcus has had a few guests. Michael Pollan is perhaps the loudest voice. And here's the story, you know, that psychedelic drugs were, LSD was accidentally discovered by Albert Hoffman in Switzerland. And it sort of leaked out. And then Gordon Wasson, working and finds this mushroom in Mexico and writes this article in Life magazine. And then Ken Kesey gets, it backfires. He's an experimental subject in California and then decides he likes these

drugs and is going to start this Mary Prankster thing. And Timothy Leary over at Harvard gets a little bit too outrageous. And this story is presented as if these are disparate events, how Albert Hoffman over here in Switzerland, Gordon Wasson in Mexico and New York. But actually, this is a deployment. This is a concerted operation. All of these players are linked. This is part of the new war on America to flood America with these wild drugs that cause these disturbances in consciousness that for some very rare individuals, these disturbances in consciousness can be profoundly beneficial and, you know, poke holes into, but for most people they're disturbing and confusing. And so that's what happened.

That was the intention. This psychedelic movement, Gordon Wasson was an operative in a vast international conspiracy to create a kind of brave new world scenario in the United States, like Huxley warned. The metaphor I like to use is throwing fairy dust in the eyes of the population. So this happens in a particularly acute way right after the assassination of John Kennedy. John Kennedy was a beloved president, young, dashing, handsome, articulate, peaceful man

with an outrageous, eccentric, personal life. I'm not saying he's perfect in any way, but he was a very charismatic and beloved character. And he's shot in the front of the head in broad daylight. And this somber mood, you know, strikes the country, the world really. And then January 64, a few months later, there's this whole new wave, this whole new spirit happening. The Beatles come to America and there's a whole new thing heavily popularized. You know, again, I love the Beatles, but the Beatles are also part of this operation. You know, their ties with British elite and secret societies and the way that they were, the door just wide open for them to spread this message.

I love the message, but when it's used as a weapon to distract from political developments, it becomes a whole nother thing. You with me so far? Absolutely. So another thing about this narrative that you see Michael Pollan, the psychedelic drugs were working. They were very valuable. They were, the psychiatrists were

learning that they could treat this and that. And then Timothy Leary enters the story and blows it for everybody. How many times when you read Michael Pollan's book or almost any of the articles in the mainstream media encapsulating this history that they were doing great until Leary and then Leary was the shit who blew it for everybody. I thought that at first when I dove into this subject. I had developed a personal relationship with Leary right away and thought what a jerk this guy was for ruining research. I studied it more and got to learn all these different things again and notice certain patterns. And then I got to know Tim a lot better. And I realized, no, this is wrong.

Tim was actually the hero in this movement because Tim was, Tim was at first recruited by CIA to be a Pied Piper to popularize the drugs. And then he realized, he learned he was being used and he didn't like that. And if you look at Tim's life, you know, he was always, he was always challenging the institutions. He got thrown out of every college he went to. And, and he was, he was a real American patriot. You know, he was, he was for the rights of the individual and he realized he was being used. He loved the drugs. He loved what they could do. And so he put his own spin on them. All the other drug deployment systems that the social engineers were using, first psychiatry,

then the other end of that, the extreme outrageous Ken Kesey, were not really politically oriented. Leary was the first one to put his own spin on them and use the drugs to really activate political and social awareness. When he said, turn on, tune in, drop out, that was an incomplete phrase. Really what he meant was turn on to deeper mysteries of consciousness and drop out of this socially constructed fake world that is being instituted by CIA programmers and Operation Paperclip and Operation Mockingbird. And let's start our own religion. Let's start a whole new way of looking at the world, very much like his fellow Irishman, John Kennedy. And these guys were snuffed out. And so that's why in this new Renaissance, you see him put him aside. Psychedelic drugs are okay for you, says the new model. If you use them with an authority, a government-approved authority,

you don't see any of the, you know, in the 60s with Leary, you know, people were like in the anti-war movements. They weren't just beautifying themselves with these substances. They were trying to change the world. In this new renaissance, I don't see any connection between psychedelic drugs and the anti-war. Is there even an anti-war movement? It's all about healing depression. Well, healing depression, go out and start a fucking revolution. Depression is a socioeconomic condition. There's research that shows that people who are depressed or people who are locked in little boxes, they're not creative. They're not moving through their stuff. They're,

they're suppressed. And, um, you know, this whole wave of interest in the modern Renaissance, like how great psilocybin is to treat depression is, um, exactly what Huxley was warning about. Keep the people happy. Throw them this fairy dust. Make them think that everything is okay. No, nothing about changing their behaviors, about organizing voter campaigns, about the social injustice,

about the concentration of wealth. None of those political developments are given any voice in the modern psychedelic movement. And that's what I think we need to change. Yeah, that's a whopper. And it is ever present. You know, you think about like, especially, you know, if we have time, we dive into the last few years here, like the amount, more billionaires have been made in the last three years than any other time in modern history. The concentration of wealth, people were complaining about that in 2007, 2008. And it's steamrolling bigger and bigger. And those are afterthoughts. People are still caught up in, in, uh, I just want to be safe, you know, and they're doing event 202, you know, they're predicting, you know, the next great pandemic

in 2025. And, um, miraculously, you know, Gates thinks that it's going to affect children because he's Nostradamus when it comes to this kind of stuff. Um, there is a play that's happening, right? And I think if we, if we can come to terms with that, it makes it a little easier to then actually be organized because whatever this is, I mean, I think empire is a good word for it. And Aubrey uses that with Dr. Robert Malone

and different people. Empire has been in place for a very long time. We talk about different elements of that, whether it's imperialism, colonization, things like that, but empire never went away. And if we can grapple with that, we can start to track it. Right. And I love this tracking that you talked about, uh, before with, with, you know, this, and it, one of the points you brought up, I'm sure you're

familiar with G Edward Griffin. Um, he wrote the, the, the, I think it's called the monster at Jekyll Island, the creature on the formation of the creature. There we go. The Monster at Jekyll Island. The Creature. On the formation of the creature. There we go, The Creature at Jekyll Island. And he also has a fantastic YouTube video that I'll link in the show notes called Worse Than War. And he's in black and white film, 1969. I think he was teaching at Berkeley. And he's reading directly from the American Communist Manifesto.

And what they're alluding to is what's happening right now. Blacks and whites will be used against each other as cannon fodder? Um, he continues, he's, he dives into like all, all the fifth generational warfare that we're really starting to become aware of right now was really deployed back then. Like this is an ongoing thing. It's not like, Oh, we wake up in 2020 happens and we say, Oh shit, they're, they're using these tactics. Like this has been the play. And I think it's an important piece to connect those dots. Talk a bit about the formation of the CIA and NASA and these kinds of things. Because I remember learning about Wernher von Braun and just kind of how weird that was. Like, okay,

the basic idea and the story that's told is there were some really shady people, a part of the Nazi scientist team. And rather than just letting all that intelligence go to waste, we were going to bring them in and harness them. So we were going to get the best of their knowledge, the best of their technology. And that's kind of how the formation of NASA started in part. And of course, if that's a story that's given to us, we have to question that. But I'd love for you to dive deeper into some of these topics. Well, okay. So first of all, I just want to say that you're absolutely right about that.

And when you go back to G. Edward Griffin, those are very important works to study. The Creature of Checkle Island, the creation of the Fed, the privatization of the money supply. And these are exactly the guys that, again, J.P. Morgan was a very major part of this. And Gordon Lawson was working with J.P. Morgan. This is where the psychedelic movement comes from. That's just one thing I wanted to emphasize that. And, you know, that post-war period was one of the greatest switches in history. You know, we're supposedly in World War II, fighting World War II. The Russians are our allies.

You know, we call Stalin Uncle Joe. We're joined together to beat back Hitler. And then, you know, they pull this like smoke and mirrors thing. Hitler is defeated defeated so to speak and suddenly like within a matter of a year this quiet peace they called it in like the period from you know the mid 40s and then all of a sudden stalin and the russians are our mortal enemy. And that we need to build up this tremendous military industrial complex to protect ourselves from this. These guys that were our best friends just a few years ago are now our mortal enemy. And how is that really happening? And one of the really good books on this subject that when I read it,

depressed me for weeks, is a book by a friend of mine, Martin Lee, who also wrote the very important book, Acid Dreams. A less known book that he wrote is called The Beast Reawakens. And he talks about what happens to the intelligence apparatus of the Third Reich at the end of World War II? Well, some of them snuck over here and rejoined their American allies and their allies in the OSS and started the CIA. Others defected to the Soviet Union and began to become involved in their KGB. And then they created this battle, this Cold War scenario where this tremendous buildup of military might that Eisenhower warns about in his very famous and important farewell speech that, you know, Bobby mentions a lot, you know, that was one of the most important speeches given by an American

president outgoing saying, you know, basically saying that I've been asleep on the job. He was a war hero. He kind of coasted into presidency, played a lot of golf, was naive, I believe, about what was really happening. And here's a great word that I like to share. Schismogenesis. You heard that word? Schismogenesis. So obviously it means the generation of schisms. And this is a word from the playbook of the OSS.

You generate schisms in a society that you want to conquer. You get them fighting amongst themselves. world fascist enterprise sets up this dialectic between America, making a schism between the United States and Russia. And they have to build up tremendous military resources. We're afraid of the Russians. They're afraid of us. And the world is kind of torn apart while the people that are actually orchestrating this schism are gaining power. I hope I made that clear enough because that's what's happening. And that phrase, I believe that phrase comes from a guy named Gregory Bateson, who was also one of the major instigators of the MKUltra program. So the CIA is then created. The OSS kind of breaks down and the

CIA is one part of it in Washington, DC, but it also becomes the Department of Social Relations at Harvard University. And it becomes the Institute of Personality Research at Berkeley. So beginning to, you know, initiate this psychological warfare and just fucking with the minds of Americans. And so I lost my thread here for a second. So that's really what the CIA does. And the Russians were a manufactured enemy and created the Cold War. And so all these resources of American taxpayers goes into the creation of this military industrial

complex. Eisenhower realizes at the end of his term that he's been asleep at the wheel. And as he's handing off the administration of the country, the presidency to John Kennedy, he says, look, this is the greatest threat to our way. We've allowed the escalation of this military industrial complex. And they've infected every aspect of our society. Eisenhower didn't say that they've infected,

they're even beginning to start a psychedelic movement here, but he might as well have said that. He said the power of the military, nowadays, I'm just going to jump ahead for a second, nowadays that military industrial complex has grown tremendously to include the unbelievable power of the pharmaceutical industry and the use of drugs. And we're talking about psychedelic drugs here, but all of these drugs, all of these antidepressants and drugs, it's the third leading cause of death in the United States. Our physician prescribed drugs and accidents and our medical profession, which is, you know, trace that even further back to the whole Rockefeller family and their domination and monopolization of medicine

in medical schools. You know, this is, and again, this is another thing that's so hard to get into because doctors, a lot of doctors are very helpful people, healing hearts, want to help people and, you know, but they're trapped in a system that gets them prescribing medications instead of nutrition, you know, all this. And so it's really a clusterfuck. So Kennedy realizes this. And one of my favorite stories to really get into is the psychedelic experience of President John Kennedy. Have you ever looked? We can talk about this a little. No, no, this is great. Let's go. This is brand new. This is a major turning point in world history.

So the CIA is trying to get drugs out into society. A very intelligent and enterprising woman, Mary Pinchot Meyer, who's the wife of a high CIA type operative. He learns what Leary is doing at Harvard and visits Timothy Leary to learn how to administer psilocybin to highly placed, powerful men in Washington, D.C. One of them happens to be her lover, President John Kennedy. And so Mary Meyer, in the spring of 1963, gets psilocybin pills from Leary and turns on President John Kennedy, again in April.

So it's almost exactly 60 years ago that Kennedy has a psychedelic experience. Now, for many years, I have really drilled into this story more than just about anybody, except for Peter Janey, who, if your listeners are taking notes, the book you want to read here is called Mary's Mosaic. And it's about this episode, Mary Meyer getting the psilocybin from Leary and turning on JFK. Now, when I first learned about this, I was under the impression that it was this psychedelic experience

that really catapulted JFK. You know, when he was elected, when JFK was elected, he was kind of bought into the whole thing that, you know, his father was a kind of a Nazi supporter, although that's, I guess, debatable. But JFK was part of that. When he got into the presidency, he began to change rather quickly and radically. And I thought it was his psychedelic experience that really did that. already well on the way, and maybe it did accelerate his development. But in any case, and this is something else that I really want your listeners to tune into, soon after JFK's

psychedelic experience, he delivers a speech on June 10th, 1963, another one of these most important speeches ever given by an American president. It's called the peace speech. And you can Google it and you can listen to the whole thing and hear him. And he sounds like he's still tripping. I mean, he's talking about world peace. He's talking about how we, you know, we all mortal, we all breathe the same air. He announces that he has begun his own direct negotiations with Khrushchev, that he has realized that he's been betrayed by his CIA, he's been given false information about the Soviet Union, and Khrushchev realizes that he's been given

false information by his intelligence apparatus. You remember what I said a moment ago about The Beast Reawakens, Marty Lee's book. That's what happened. And both Kennedy and Khrushchev realized this, and they were secretly negotiating to end the Cold War, begin joint relations with the Soviet Union, and start a whole new era of peace and sustainability. You have to listen to this speech. Every time I listen to it, I either just get chills up my spine or I cry because he's funny and he's brilliant and he's articulate and he's the last real president we had. And that was like his opening salvo. Like, we're really changing.

They'd already been the Bay of Pigs. And, you know, he betrayed by the CIA, began to, you know, that famous quote that Bobby brought up a few weeks ago, I'm going to shatter the CIA into a thousand pieces and scatter it to the winds. Well, he was, as Jerry Garcia said, you know, maybe he's, maybe you had too much too fast. Maybe you had too much too fast because he underestimated the force of his adversaries. And though he started to make these moves, he underestimated their diabolical power. And just a few months after this monumental speech, he was assassinated. So this story is so very important to me because it shows both sides of the psychedelic experience. It shows how in certain prepared conscious individuals, they can be tremendously progressive, catalytic

advances. And that happened with Kennedy. But then immediately after that, after he's assassinated, as I said, these drugs came and like flew into America and fairy dust in the eyes. And instead of, you know, doing the difficult political work to change society, registering voters, they're, you know, partying, there's wild, you know, the whole sexual liberation movement comes in. People are trying to levitate the Pentagon instead of registering voters. And the whole thing just kind of went nuts. So you see that again, this both, this both aspects of it. And, you know, it's people like you, we need to, we need to really get this word out and not be, not be kind of intoxicated by the enthusiasm of psychedelics. And let's, let's use them as really catalysts, not only for personal development, but for cultural evolution. And that's, that's the message mainly I want to put out. Yeah, I love that. And it's, it's ringing true ringing true as like one, I often thought in the past,

diving into, you know, like Brian Marusco's work on the immortality key, Manly P. Hall, you know, just on the subject of mystery schools, why they were kept a mystery. Why was it the fact that they would, you know, you'd take an initiate and into an adept, and then only the select few were given these initiatory experiences where they might be in the dark for 48 hours and on a journey for 36 held by the high priestesses and the knowledge keepers of that time. And it speaks to what you're talking about in that really there are a select few that are going to take these things under the correct care and supervision in the right setting and actually be catapulted and transformed. And there's quite a few people that won't do it the correct way.

And you might call those, you know, muggles versus wizards, you know, whatever language you want to use. But the fact is that there's a lot of people that aren't ready for it either. Yeah. So I love that you mentioned, Brian, we can, you know, I'm just kind of laying out stuff that, you know, the things that we're talking about, we're going to do this in an hour or so podcast, but I'll have to come back and, you know, Yes, more, more, more. This is really like a graduate level course in modern American history and the history of religion. So Brian, before Brian, let me just say a little bit about the course of my career and what I set out to do. My first thing was to reintroduce psychedelic drugs into the scientific and academic establishment with an emphasis on meta-psychiatric issues,

religious concerns, not having to submit psychedelics to the therapeutic efficacy of the medical model. Like that's just a trap. Hypnosis wouldn't work there. There are so many things that Americans are allowed to do that are major parts of their lifestyle that are dangerous, skydiving, whatever, race car driving. There are a lot of therapeutic modalities that would never work.

You can't prove them in double blind experimentation. Hypnosis would be one, dream psychoanalysis, but we're allowed to do these things. And so I was gonna try to direct psychedelic drugs into a category like that. And then after working for a couple of years in that area, I realized how intractable these institutions were and that really wasn't gonna be the way to do it.

And I began to really appreciate what Timothy Leary did. The world needs to know about psychedelic drugs. I don't think they should be secret and forbidden. They need to know about them, but they need to know about them in a certain context. And what Tim did, Tim said at the end of his life, the most important thing he did was to free the drugs from the CIA, give them to the people, take this chance, get them out there, remove them from their control. And let's just trust democracy. Democracy is messy, but let's trust it. And so I appreciated that perspective. But then the third, so first I did a book called Entheogens and the Future of Religion, which is a very great book. Houston Smith says it's the best single book on drugs and religion.

I'm very proud of it. It's a compilation of original material that I selected from conferences and interviews that I did. It also includes an interview, an extensive interview with Gordon Wasson. And then I began to appreciate Leary. So I did a book on Timothy Leary that's called Outside Looking In. Appreciations, castigations, and reminiscences because he's complicated. And then my third step was to republish a book called The Road to Eleusis, which is a book that Gordon Lawson and Albert Hoffman wrote road of Eleusis had sort of become well-known that traditional shamanistic societies

and ancient societies used psychedelics, but they weren't really part of our tradition. But in fact, they are. And that to the extent that our democracy and our Western civilization is based on the foundation of the ancient Greeks, ancient Greeks were psychedelic visionaries. And that's what the Road to Eleusis is about. And it was a book that had been written in 1978 and had gone out of print and it was rare and hard to find. And so I got the

copyright and I republished a couple of new editions to put that out there. But here's the thing about the Lucinian mysteries, as you just mentioned. You weren't allowed to talk about your visions. You were kind of required to go, but you couldn't talk about it. It was sacred. It was outside the normal functioning of society. It was sacred.

You went there, you got the message, and you hung up the phone, and you tried to live a sustainable, peaceful life with what you've learned about death and rebirth and the cosmos. You didn't make a business out of it. You didn't, like, you know, there's a teaching story in Buddhism that Buddhism is like a raft that you use to cross a stream. You don't once cross the stream, like pick up the raft and carry it with you wherever you go. You leave the raft there for the next guy. And this is, so I'm mentioning this because you mentioned Brian, who's a man who I respect a great deal. Brian got the idea for writing his book, The Immortality Key, by reading The Road to Lucis that I republished. He sort of indebted to me for this. That's why I published the book,

so more people would get wind of this. But now what we see with Brian is like this tremendous publicity engine behind the book, this kind of exploitation of the concept of the mysteries. Brian and I have talked about this a little bit, like, how about this? Why are we violating this ancient code? This is supposed to be secret, yet we want everybody to know. And anyway, it's just a sort of funny little paradox that somehow we have to negotiate here. I just wanted to put that out there. Let me just say this too. As I was listening to your interview with Jamie Wheel, I listened to it a few days ago. These podcast formats are great because they allow people like me to express themselves, but it'd be very cool to have, when Jamie and you were talking, I wanted to like interrupt a couple of times and say,

but how about, you know, to have like a three-way or a four-way dialogue about. I would love that. We'd have to do it. We'd have to do it in person, but I would absolutely love that. Like I'm getting butterflies just feeling the energy of that right now. That would be amazing. And I'd happily fly you guys. He lives here in Austin. I'd happily fly you out to make that happen. Oh, Jamie's. Oh yeah. Well, I'm, I have a place in Vermont and I'm, we'll, we'll talk about that later off video, but let's do that. I have a place in Vermont and we can do a, I've been, cause I've been watching all these psychedelic conferences and they're just like, you know, they might as well be a conference, you know, to be selling some sort of appliance. It's not, it's all promotion. There's no critical exchange. We need, and here's, you know, I'm writing a book now that I'm calling

Altered States of America, Psychedelic Movements, plural, of the 20th and 21st century. Because although there's one family of drugs, really there are many different groups of people that use these same drugs for utterly different reasons. There are people using them for personal or economic or political gain, like guys like Rick Doblin. They're just money people. They're just, they found, they're like selling sex.

Sex is the same, like some people, sex is lovemaking. You know, the deepest sort of communion with yourself and the person or the people you love. For some people, sex is, oh, I'm gonna kidnap that person and, you know, make money off of him or her. There's a whole range of uses for sex. And it's the same thing with psychedelic drugs. between what is the sacred, therapeutic, truly transformative and culturally valuable use of these drugs and what is the commodification of them? What is the weaponization of them? Who are the people?

Where did they come from? And I was right in the middle of this. So I know that this renaissance that's happening, if you look into the backgrounds of these people in the first wave and in this current wave, they go right to military intelligence or, you know, the Davos group. And we need to paint this picture with a finer brush so we really can understand what's going on with these precious sacraments. Absolutely. Well, I know you got a jam in two minutes. I'm really excited about this because

it's like an ultimate cliffhanger to just blow up a 50-minute podcast and get people chomping at the bit for more. I don't think we need to wait a long time. So I don't know what your schedule is like, but within the next month, I'd love to run it back with you and get you back on so we can continue on these topics. Where can people find you in the meantime? I know you have a subscription based that is completely worth it. I think it's 25 bucks a month or 25 a year. I'm not sure. Take my money. Yeah. I want to, I've been reading, I've been reading a couple of the things and I absolutely love the content there. So talk about where people can find you, where people can learn more. Um, my buddy, Jose,

who does, um, all the show notes is going to link to everything. So I know we've talked about a lot here, a lot of books, videos, things like that. He'll have those all in the show notes. Uh, thank you, Jose. He'll have all those in the show notes. Thank you, Jose. He'll have all those in the show notes so you guys can deep dive before Robert comes back on the podcast. Okay, so let me say this. So I started that website about a year ago. It's still really a work in progress. My website is alteredstatesofamerica.net.

And then you can get into my own personal material and some of the archives by paying this subscription fee. That's one thing. Also, just a couple of months ago, I started a sub stack, which is also called alteredstatesofamerica.substack. And I have got a few articles that I'm working on. That you can join for free.

If any listeners want to hear more of what I'm saying, then they can go there and just subscribe. And I'll know that there's, I'll know that there's listeners and I'll feel more inclined to come out with, with some of this stuff and engage in conversations. And also, you know, I'm a little mixed about saying this, but I'm pretty active on Facebook, which is, you know, I don't really like Mark Zuckerberg or the intelligence CIA lineage of Facebook and the surveillance of all that. But I'm also in this place where, you know, it works for me. So people can come to my Facebook page, which is public. I'm probably, I'm not saying unique, but I'm unusual in this psychedelic movement because I don't do this for money. I don't need the money. This feels like a social and intellectual and spiritual responsibility to share my experiences and help guide this movement that I help to instigate in a better direction. Well, thank you so much, Robert, for coming on. We will run it back again, volume two coming shortly. And all the best on your trip in New Jersey. And I look forward to sitting in front of you again. A pleasure to meet you, Kyle. Thanks for having me on. And we have a lot more to talk about. And until the next time. Thank you. you