Kyle Kingsbury Podcast - #326 Arousing the System with Cold w/ Joshua Church of EDGE Theory Labs

Episode Date: October 25, 2023

Joshua Dean Church came to me the way many of the dopest things on this podcast have. Paying attention to little God nods from my circle. Joshua has been a Wim Hof certified coach, so he had a pretty strong proclivity for the cold as a teacher and has taken it much further than just the cold. He and his cousin Rob founded EDGE Theory Labs for the purpose of optimizing the entirety of the individual as well as community. Their commitment to this ideal shows through the way they have set up their company and the support they provide their employees.  In this convo we get more details on Joshua’s background with Wim, breathwork, cold,  and life in general. He gives us a little look into the deeper science of cold and its benefits as well as some little protocols their team has developed and utilizes in-house. Please enjoy this one and share it around to get your tribe synced up.   ORGANIFI GIVEAWAY Keep those reviews coming in! Please drop a dope review and include your IG/Twitter handle and we’ll get together for some Organifi even faster moving forward.   Connect with Joshua: Instagram: @joshuadeanchurch  Website: EdgeTheoryLabs.com/KKP Use Code “KKP” for $150 off!!   Show Notes: Arkadia link https://fitforservice.com/pages/arkadia/ "Delivering Happiness" Tony Hsieh   Sponsors: Hostage Tape Nasal breathing is some of the lowest hanging fruit for your health. Head to hostagetape.com/KKP for your third month worth of tape free!   Organifi Go to organifi.com/kkp to get my favorite way to easily get the most potent blend of high vibration fruits, veggies and other goodies into your diet! Click that link and use code “KKP” at checkout for 20% off your order! Bioptimizers To get the ’Sleep Breakthrough‘ deal exclusively for fans of the podcast, click the link below and use code word “KINGSBU10” for an additional 10% off. sleepbreakthrough.com/kingsbu  PaleoValley Some of the best and highest quality goodies I personally get into are available at paleovalley.com, punch in code “KYLE” at checkout and get 15% off everything! To Work With Kyle Kingsbury Podcast   Connect with Kyle: Fit For Service Academy App: Fit For Service App  Instagram: @livingwiththekingsburys - @gardenersofeden.earth  Odysee: odysee.com/@KyleKingsburypod  Youtube: Kyle Kingbury Podcast  Kyles website: www.kingsbu.com - Gardeners of Eden site    Like and subscribe to the podcast anywhere you can find podcasts. Leave a 5-star review and let me know what resonates or doesn’t.

we're back baby i'm uh knocking this one out before i head out to sedona for fit for services final meetup of the year final core event i should say we've got arcadia coming up early november november 2nd through the 5th and check that out at fit for service.com slash arcadia we got tickets still on sale there it's going to be one of the fucking coolest parties of all time we ran this our first time last year in ve. It was summertime. It was pretty fucking hot. This is going to be the best way to close out the year. We've got amazing speakers like Del Bigtree, people that have been on this podcast before that are some of the most inspirational and wonderful humans I've ever come in contact with. In addition to that, Troy Boy, Dr. Fresh, some of

the best artists on the planet for us to shake our fucking tail feathers and get down. It's going to be awesome. There's also going to be other great musicians and speakers such as myself. Not a musician, but a speaker. I'll be there talking about what we're doing at the farm, what health really is, and everything in between. You get to meet me there, Aubrey Marcus and Caitlin and Godsey and a lot of the other amazing people we're going to have there. Matthias DiStefano, like I said, Del Bigtree, Charles Eisenstein, Zach Bush, and Jamie Will were all speakers there last year. So I can tell you that the speaking lineup is second to none. It is only a few days long, November 2nd through the 5th. It's going to be absolutely incredible.

So make sure you get your tickets now. We'll link to that in the show notes. Today's guest is Joshua Church from Edge Theory. Josh Church, I was led to through a series of synchronicities. I won't dive into that here. It just happened that way over the course of a few days. We talk about it on the podcast. He's one of the first experts that I've had on in several years when it comes to the Wim Hof method, cold therapy, sauna sessions, all those things. And it's funny because there's many things that I kind of, I don't necessarily take for granted, but once,

once we've got that out there and it's like, all right, we did that. And then I move on and it becomes habit for most of us. Uh, if, if, if it does become habit for most of us, good job. Uh, and then I just go about life and I, and I don't think twice about it. It's like, yeah, that's kind of old news. And then I see so many people online in different places. They're like, well, what's the best way to do this? And I'm like, you know what? It's really been a while since we've talked about this. And I honestly don't remember some of the best ways to do this. I know the ways that I use this and I know the science that supports that, but I also know that there's more than one way to skin a cat. And there's a multitude of different ways that we can utilize cold therapy

and different things like that. And just really the whole optimization game. Remember this podcast used to be total human optimization. And I apologize for straying if I strayed too far away from that. And that's the reason you're here. Today's about total human optimization. We're back to that. And, uh, and nothing more, we don't dive into deep state topics or anything like that. We just stick to the body and, um, and really it's a phenomenal podcast. Josh Church has done some really cool shit. He's based in San Diego. Uh, the way he set up his company actually reminds me quite a bit of Todd White and dry farm wines. Like he's really paying attention to what creates community and what bonds people together. And it makes me

think of Tony Hsieh, the late great Tony Hsieh who wrote delivering happiness. It's a phenomenal book for anybody that's, that's a part of companies that wants to have the best company possible. Delivering Happiness is a phenomenal book. We'll link to that in the show notes as well. But I've had Todd White on this podcast from Dry Farm Wines three different times to really pick his brain on this, especially when I was working on it because I wanted to create or do my part to create a really holistic environment for everybody that we worked with. And, you know, they did great.

I don't know how the, how the company is now. I know that there, there's always seems to be an air of awesomeness when you step into on it, on it, Jim, I don't know how the company's doing under Unilever, but I'm always rooting for them. That's always, you know, that's always one of the landmarks in my trajectory. And certainly, obviously such a big one for Aubrey's, but Josh is absolutely incredible. And I can assure you that we will be diving in quite a bit more into the body in different ways to optimize the body because now more than ever, people need to know this shit. And it's really

fun to have people on that, that know more than I do when it comes to this, to be perfectly honest, I really like picking their brain and I get to pick his brain before, during, and after the show. It was awesome. We showed him the farm. Josh is a homie and he'll be back on for sure. There are many ways you can support this podcast. First and foremost, share it with friends far and wide. I think this is one of those unique podcasts that everyone can listen to and benefit from. So share this with anybody that listens to the podcast. That way you don't have to teach them about where the fucking podcast app is or how to download Spotify and where to find it and all that shit. If you want to go through that, cool.

But they already listened to it. Just send it to them. They can click on it and then boom, they can listen. Secondly, support our sponsors. They make this show possible. And I mean, they absolutely make this show possible. I've also hand selected every single one of these guys. They are incredible.

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Josh Church. Josh, I got introduced to you from a number of people all at once. And it was kind of one of these things where you get enough little nods or shoves from the universe. And you're like, oh, man, like three in fucking one weekend. I was like, all right, we got to do this. It's funny. I got a text from Tim Ferriss who was asking me about cold plunges and what to do. And I was one of the guys that geeked out on making, you know, the D-Y-I and DIY.

There we go. Do it yourself. As you can tell, I don't do that enough to get the acronym right. But I did it myself, you know, and I got help from Luke's in there, you know, told him my name and everything like that. And up front, these guys are great. I mean, they sent it to me on the house, that kind of shit. And then I let them know everything.

And they're like, oh, you're at a warranty. And I was like, how are you saying this right now? It was a fucking gift. I'm a podcast host. I'm not going to sit here and be like, I'm a big name, blah, blah, blah. I'm not a big name, clearly. But at the same time, if you're treating me like this, how are you treating fucking your customers? And I was like, listen, I'm the guy that got you in with Aubrey and Aubrey Marcus and Paul Cech. And the guy goes, oh, you know Aubrey. And then the tune changed. And I was like, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. This is, this is, this is bad. That means fucking everyone I've told about this thing is, is left, you know, up shit Creek without a paddle all because they, they made some mistakes in engineering and had to go a different route.

And long story short, I like Tim was looking for, um, a much better version of that, something that I could rely on. And, you know, but between Tim, between Aub, and then Ian, and then David, who had been already working with you guys, you know, David, Ian, brother, and my assistant, I was like, there's a lot of pointers here that we got on the horn. And I realized like, we've got so much in common

and you've really been on the path and what you're doing with your company is really inspiring. And so I wanted to invite you on just to get your story because I think that, that it's really cool. Like there's a few companies that I've absolutely loved. I don't even drink alcohol, but I love dry farm wines. I've had Todd White on three different times. Dry farm wines is an exceptional company.

And it's because Todd's an exceptional CEO and president and what he's cultivating there from a hiring standpoint. I think it's when I read, um, delivering happiness, the Tony Hsieh story on Zappos, I was like, that's what Todd's doing. He's doing something that's far beyond other places. And so listening to you, I can kind of send the, the, the winks and the nods and the shoves from the universe. It was, it was a pleasure to connect. And, um, and yeah, yeah. You know, similarly in my story, there was a lot of shoves from the universe that were painful that got me onto this path. And, uh, for me that, that my journey was one of healing physically. So I was born with my lung collapsed right minutes after I was born. So breath was

something that from the beginning was something that I had to work for and struggle for and heal from. And growing up, I had my work for and struggle for and heal from. And growing up, I had my fair share of being a, being a boy playing sports injuries, broken arms, this, that. But then, um, I did my ACL, LCL, MCL meniscus. And then the year after I had a, uh, a really, um, a really rare injury called compartment syndrome. And that was basically the whole, my whole quad from a a from a football injury and another subsequent injury after that filled with blood and all don't they say that that is how shin splints to a lot out of uh because there's no fascia there so they had to relieve that pressure

i was hours away from having my leg amputated 17 years old and i thought what the you know what the heck's going on here and then a couple years later i had appendicitis which is a common procedure they do for the appendectomy but the doctor nicked an artery and I was bleeding internally in the hospital a week later, blood transfusion. So at that point in my early twenties, I was in such a bad place with my body and such a bad relationship. I was inflamed. I was overweight. I just was not well. And I didn't have trust, right? I didn't have trust in my body. I thought that I literally had in my mind as a young man that I'm going to be in a wheelchair by the time I'm 30, right? I didn't have trust in my body. I thought that I literally had in my mind as a young man, that I'm going to be in a wheelchair by the time I'm 30, right? Like I had that idea and I was walking around hobbling around and, and that's what, and that's what forced me on the path.

I went to a yoga class. My, my uncle and dad convinced me to go to this sculpt yoga class and it was a good workout. But I remember laying in Shavasana at the end being like, Ooh, that was good. My body felt relaxed. What was that? So I took that. Our body's always whispering to us. And, and, you know, the, the, the story goes on to me going to Iceland, doing a Wim Hof retreat and falling in love with cold and breath work and, and what that did for me as well. But that's, that's really what started me on that path was I was, I was shoved onto it by virtue of, of physical pain and, uh, and injury in my body. Yeah. I think that's, it's, there's, it's fairly common, not exactly your story, but the story of crisis leading to the deeper dive.

You know, like it checks, you know, famous for saying that, you know, that most people won't change until there's a crisis. That's right. And, but not everyone changes when there is the crisis. So like pat yourself on the back. It's not to say like, you know, oh yeah, well, that's how every great story begins. It's it's like well most of them are bad stories most of them are people that

fucking die of you know multiple comorbidities and right and didn't didn't didn't change their lives and didn't do it well and it's a common thread and meditate i was like oh shit yeah i didn't start and then third time and i was like all right uh i can't come back here until i've done yoga and meditated but yeah my wife got she became a yoga teacher trainer in Los Gatos, at Breathe Los Gatos, a fucking phenomenal place. Great. And Jen Pru, who's their lead instructor, is awesome. She was a Ram Dass mentee, I guess you'd call that.

And so she's got this deep breadth of wisdom from the spiritual and in that application, obviously, you know, yoga's got, yogis can be very wide ranging, you know, in their spiritual practices, but I'll just leave it at that kindly. But yeah, she had a very grounded, you know, Ram Dass has such a grounded approach to it. But let's talk a little bit more about Wim and the trajectory, because for me, when I hit Wim, I was still fighting. Heard him on Ferris' podcast. Well, there's a deeper, when you understand what he was doing, it's much deeper than that. Talk about that, the trajectory and getting out there I remember just being captivated by his story and how inspiring it was. And the one thing that really resonated that he was saying is how, and just in the whim way that he says it, is that we are in control. We are responsible for our own health, strength, and happiness.

And that message just so resonated with me of like, yes, I'm in control here, right? Like I, this is my body, this is my life and I'm responsible. Nobody's coming to save me, right? Like I'm responsible for my body. This is my life. And, and I'm responsible. Nobody's coming to save me, right? Like I'm responsible for my health. I'm responsible for my happiness. I'm responsible for my strength. And, and that really, that really inspired me. And so I wanted to try the breath work and the cold. I went and watched the vice documentary and the yes theory, YouTube thing, like everybody does and starts with this is, this is right. Like you follow the breadcrumbs, something interests you or sparks your curiosity or excites you like take that a step further. You're you, you hear something

on a podcast that you're, you're, you're interested in it. Like go learn there's something there for you. Right. And so I followed the breadcrumb and I'm like, you know, it was a bit extreme. Sure. But I decided to send it and book the retreat and went out to Iceland. I'd always wanted to see the Northern lights, wanted to get out there. And it just, it felt like, it felt like a yes. And so I went and, um, and it was, it was game changing. I did breath work for the first time that, you know, the deep Wim Hof breath breathing style. And it was led by Joran DeBrown, who was one of his first, he was the first Wim Hof instructor outside of Wim to lead retreats. And he's become a close friend and mentor. I'm actually going back to Iceland in two weeks with

him to lead another retreat out there. Cool. Is he based there or does he just go to the cold places? He's based out of, uh, yeah, no, he's not based out of Iceland. He lives now in Mallorca. He's got an awesome farmstead and family life out there in Mallorca right now. I'm hysterical. I never had. And then that tickle moved its way around my body to all the different sites of my scars and incisions and surgeries. And it just felt like this wave of relief and release that was happening. And it was one of the most powerful things. And I remember after thinking, I just felt so much lighter. I felt so much calmer. I felt so much more in my body. And I remember thinking, that was just with my breath. We just laid down and breathed for an hour and

that's what happened? Holy crap, there's something here. I was so lit up about that an hour. And that's what happened. Like, Holy crap, there's something here. I was so lit up about that breath work. And then you pair that with the cold and going into the, into the, the tundra and doing a climbing a mountain and freezing temperatures and negative degrees and, and, and go going into the glacier waterfalls and rivers and feeling the strength and aliveness and coming back to reconnecting with our body and its beautiful capability and how in myself, and I went on to become a Wim Hof Method certified instructor and, and also share with other people and share that, share that gift of connection with themselves and their body to get out of their minds that we live so stimulated in and actually breathe and feel and listen and understand what's happening on a deeper level in your anatomy and physiology.

Yeah. It's, it's Yeah, it's a massive thing. I remember the first time I went for like a deep shamanic, you know, like not just 30 reps, whole kind of deal with pushups at the end, but like the deep work, which you're talking about, was with a woman named Anahata Ananda out in Sedona. And it was 2017, it was right when I got to Onnit and already had, you know, Fit for Service wasn't around then. But he would send employees out for like a little spirit retreat,

you know, where you'd get to hang with Perangi and learn music and, and a dive into the body and then Anahata would do the breath work. And so I, I, you know, I'd heard a little bit about it and I'd heard it. I'd been doing Wim Hof and shit like that has that lead us to the altered state from native American vision quest, no food, no water for four days, what they do at Sundance, um, along with sweat lodges and other things, No Food, No Water for four days, what they do at Sundance, along with sweat lodges and other things, but so many different pieces, darkness,

that Aubrey and Eric Godsey and Aaron Alexander and Blue and all these awesome friends of mine that I've been able to do, I haven't done it yet. I think I'm more scared of the darkness than the other ones, but the breath is one that's awesome because it's doing much, It's not only is it going to put you in an altered state of consciousness where you can't access these things. Ultimately your foot's on the pedal and it's on the gas. You decide how far you want to go. But, you know, diving into Jamie wheels work, who's, who's a good buddy and everything from, uh, you know,

the flow stuff that he was talking about, uh, in his book with Kotler into recapture the rapture, like you're doing vagal Rapture. You're doing vagal toning. You're doing things that move far beyond. Yogis have understood this for thousands of years, but this is why, with exception to living in London during World War II, with exception to that, people in our space now, where if you don't have the reset button, you just carry that with you. It's like a fucking load. You had two and a half pounds today. You had another two and a half pounds next day from, from somebody. I keep adding this pounds to your weight vest until you're carrying a hundred pounds of shit. Your nervous system

is fucking fried. And, uh, thinking about the ability of that to just hit that reset very quickly in a way that's so palpable. And like he says, you know, get high on your own supply, right? Like you are getting high on your own supply. And I realize we have that as an access point. First and foremost, it's my responsibility. But secondly, oh shit, I have access to this anytime I fucking need it. And it's not easy, right? It's good.

It takes work. It takes work. It's called breath work for a reason, right? It takes work. Like anything, anything worthwhile, right? That's not a prescription or a pill that you do. And the softness, and we're not doing the hard things to get our nervous system charged up and to get

in that exciting delight and so and and and playing those hormetic stressors like cold like hit workouts like hard training like sauna to be able to get into this to build this elasticity of our nervous system to know where and when do i need to up regulate where and when do i need to down regulate how can i use what i have within me and what's accessible within me like a vehicle like a bike like a like a machine to be able to tune myself to what i need to show up in this moment and and and alter my state however i need to yeah fuck yeah you nailed that i i think that like the breath lives in its own place and then as you combine the cold you know there was so much i I remember Rhonda Patrick just beating the drum on sauna therapy and really diving home on that. And then I talked to, oh God, why am I forgetting his name now?

Taro from Four Sigmatic, who's, you know, told me a sauna is the only, there's some cold thing that hits the reset button in between that. And I'm sure you get tons of questions about this, but I get a lot of questions since coming on it around, you know, if I can do one thing, sauna or ice bath, what would it be? And it's like, how much time do you have? If you're like me, you probably want the ice bath because what you can do in one to three minutes in an ice bath will fundamentally change the rest of your day versus 15 minutes to an hour that the sauna is going to take. And they're both fucking phenomenal. I've had both for a long time. But they do require a little chunk of change, but talk a bit about, you know, as you started to uncover, because Wim's so brilliant on breaking down the science of the cold, what it's doing to the body. And, and when you think about, I've had some, I'm,

I'm almost exhausted myself on how many times I've had someone on this podcast to talk about metabolism, you know, and, and, and metabolic function, get it, it use, right? Yeah, absolutely. Talk about that. Well, a lot of that comes down to what's referred to as brown fat or brown adipose tissue. Are you familiar with brown fat and brown adipose tissue, which were for those who aren't, we have, we have different types of fat in our body. We've got white fat, we have beige fat, we have brown fat and brown fat is what we build is almost like an insulation layer, simply put, in the cold. It helps keep us warm. Babies and toddlers have a high concentration of brown fat because they don't have a sugaring mechanism yet, which I find fascinating. So babies and toddlers do well in the cold, which you see, and it makes sense.

And so our brown fat, though, is really important because it actually has metabolic value. And our brown fat actually, it works as a furnace of sorts sorts and it burns our white fat too that's why you see all these insane stories of people losing so much weight from the cold it makes sense too because you put yourself in cold and and your body needs to needs to burn calories and burn burn stuff in your body to be able to heat you up and warm you back up after the cold and fascinating but and then at the end of the day it's like think about it from a from a from a simple perspective you get yourself into cold what does it do to your system it gets you going it gets you up it wakes you up it gets you moving and so just from a from that level of thinking that's happening down on a cellular level as well we're activating we're engaging

we're arousing the system to to wake up and to and to go and to produce and to energize. So there's so much around that. And I'm glad the metabolic health is now starting to have its moment in the spotlight because like you said, it's such a foundation of all the rest of health that hasn't really been talked about a whole lot, I feel like. Yeah, I mean, from different angles, right? I mean, I remember right when the ketogenic diet came online. I don't remember that actually. It came online long before I was born. But when the resurgent of it, I guess, in modern culture, and then they got all these different keto companies coming out and some of them are great. Like I love the ketones. HVMN has great ketones.

Aubrey's developing a phenomenal ketone right now. That's going to be a world beater. Those are excellent. And at the same time, like it's not really getting into what is the point of all this, right? Like Sisson wrote the keto reset diet and said, Hey, you don't have to live here, but for three weeks a year, three to six weeks, like you should reset your metabolism in this way. Dr. Balter Longo, who had heard about through Rhonda Patrick really took a deep dive into this. Like, is there a low hanging fruit that we can do where we can give somebody, you know, about a thousand, 500 to a thousand calories a day for five days and, and mimic fasting for five days. And then does that intermittent,

or is that a fasting mimicking diet? Does that actually give us the bulk of the gains? And it does, right? He's proved that. Yeah. He's proved that that's a very valid way for people who can't just go in a couple of his, his top folks on from NutriSense. And they were discovering, you know, like ZEN equals one, but through thousands of patients, they're discovering all sorts of shit. Like they had, you know, you can become metabolically flexible in a matter of weeks, even if you're a hundred pounds overweight. You don't have to lose the whole hundred pounds to become more metabolically fit. And through some of these practices, whether it be cold or mitigating carbohydrates or doing, you know, some intermittent fasting or crash coursing with like a fasting mimicking or an actual fast, like that can change the scope of your life for the next six months to a year.

It's a big fucking deal. And now we have capability. Now I can process things differently. I've reset leptin levels. My appetite changes. My hunger changes. Where that food gets stored gets changes. Fascinating. And they're all different tools and different tools work differently for everybody's different too, right? And that's so much been my mindset as I've gone deep into the spaces exploring with this open-minded. Jenny Moore, I do lead people through breathwork and ice baths very frequently.

And I find such joy and pleasure into that as well. It's gonna be really, really powerful. Just the other day I had someone in and who had like a panic attack, freak out, right? And it was such a profound moment to be able to hold space for that and to watch and to be present and to give tools to help them actually get over that

and regulate themselves in that and be able to use that as an empowering step in their healing. So I don't teach yoga in the studio anymore, but I do a lot of breath work and lead retreats also. Very cool. Yeah. Yeah. Talk a bit about in the formation of what you're doing because you guys create Edge Theory and you're working on these things and the tub is phenomenal, but in our conversation, you were letting me know kind of what the office looks like, the culture that you're

creating there. Dive into that because I think this is great. Absolutely. So my cousin, my cousins and my co-founder, you know, to reach their edge, to unlock that edge and unlock their maximum human potential. And so that's why we didn't call ourselves like, you know, monkey ice barrel or whatever, you know, cold pond, right? Like we wanted to be bigger than that. And so we launched with a great product and we, we, we built it

for ourselves so we could use for Ironman triathlon training. And so that I could stop buying ice and I didn't want to go chest freezer route. And I actually hit up my cousin to help me build a chest freezer. And he like freaked out. He's like, no, I don't want you to like, you know, freeze yourself or close yourself in that chest freezer. So that's when we built, we built a DIY and then just kept making it better and better. And then really I championed the portability. We're the first portable one to launch to market. So I could put it on my balcony apartment or I could move it around. And so it's not a liability.

It's not this big fixed tub. And that worked really well. But coming back to what you're saying, one of the mantras that we've had since day one when we launched is being more than just a tub, right? Like we seek to be more than just a tub. Just things. And then beyond that too like what other other products that we're working on innovating and bringing to market to to be able to support

people and their whole body transformation and to to really truly push that edge and so as a result we also you know as we started growing our team and getting to a physical office space we were like how cool you know dreaming this up how cool it'd be to have like a office space that's cool and different and that people actually want to come into. And so we built out for ourselves. We're like, Oh, it's going to be awesome.

We're going to have a sauna. We're going to have cold tubs. We're going to have a exercise with oxygen therapy set up. We're going to have the Norma tech, the recovery. We're going to have it all. It's going to be the labs, edge three labs.

We're going to have our labs, our HQ. So we can take care of ourselves and our employees and make it this really, really cool place. So, so we've built this amazing space and in San, San Diego, and we're just actually outgrowing it now. So we're getting ready to move into an even bigger and better space, which is really exciting. And,

uh, and it's all about, and what we're, what we're building is a place that people want is that is so, uh, extreme that it, it changes your way of being entirely like it's, you know, it's, it's, it's growing out of your shell and into a new one it's an up leveling moment or opportunity it's doing something that that's going to push you so much that you'll never be the same right and so so for a lot of our employees it's uh doing an iron man triathlon right or it's climbing a mountain or it's doing a a vision quest right we've all our different employees do different things and we fund one a year for each of our employees to go out there, do something that's going to be out of the office. It's going to go push yourself. And, uh, it's been so well-received of course. And, uh, and, and that's, that's really the philosophy. And, you know, it feels like something special is

brewing with that. And that's why I've got such faith and conviction in what we're doing beyond just tubs and ice baths and, and, and towards the bigger picture that we're working towards that, um, that we get an opportunity as well to see in so many parallels. I mean, that, that really was Aubrey's reason for sending people out to, to the ranch in Sedona before we started utilizing it for fit for service was like, Hey, go there, get this breath work going. You know, it's a legal way, a legal way where we can give you an alternate state and that kind of thing. And on a hunt is such a beautiful medicine woman. I'm, I'm fucking stoked. We're going to do a land journey together for fit for service here in like 10 days.

We'll be hooking up. So I get to be her assistant. It's basically like a one day out on the land. And Sedona is such a powerful place in and of itself, but you go fasted with an intention and you open yourself to the potential of nature speaking to you. So a lot of Dr. Walt Tegel's work,

our buddy Tim Corcoran's done it before, but it's with that idea that I'm going to find a place here and through the guidance of great spirit, I'm going to lay by this running stream. And I did that and I had a flood of downloads on creating Full Temple Reset, which is where we do the fasting mimicking diet, hot and cold,

the whole deal. So that'll be cool in January. We'll run it back and we'll be just pumping people through the edge theory. I love it. And then also send them here in the pool. Is this going to be fucking like 30 degrees in that pool? But yeah, that's,

that's a, it's a really special thing. I forgot what I was getting at for that. Had a question for you. Oh oh on the masogi thing that's exactly how aubrey creates tribe we do these bead necklace exchanges where you select a person and you have to go through something monumentally hard so like uh you know i'd never done it boga that was the thing we did together because it was like it's a little bit harder than ayahuasca. You know, it can be very hard. I shit my pants. It wasn't, it wasn't as brutal as it could have been humbling, humbling for sure. I mean, at that point, I'd had enough. You got to be in the office, you know? And the reason for that is that there is,

there's magic sauce that happens when you're sharing energy with one another. And you know, this from podcasting as well as anything else, if we're face to face is a different energy than online course. And it's great. Cause I couldn't get with David Icke or some of these other people that live in different countries otherwise, right? I'm not going to fly to London and I'll have that kind of dough for the podcast to go fly myself, nor would I spend that much time away from my family. So that the technology piece is good. And at the same time, there is something lost when it's not face-to-face. And I think that's really cool that you guys are putting that together. We've drawn people in

into one location that's way different than how companies are being built now. Yeah, totally. And like you were saying too, it should be a place that you want to come into. And that's the goal, right?

Like if you're spending, for the common employee spends, I mean, what is it? Like two thirds of their life at the office. That's amazing. I love that their office. That's amazing. I love that so much. That's awesome.

Do your employees do a lot of this stuff together? Did they say like, hey, well, let's do this Ironman together. Will you team up with me? Yeah. Yeah. That's a cool thing too. And we're also doing team stuff as well and team things, team events. So where like a few of us will, will do so certain

things. There's two or three of us doing this Ironman next month. And, and we're also fun stuff too. Just like, let's go, let's all go paintballing or let's all just do fun things together. And doing that on a regular cadence is, is important, but once a year we'll do something, we'll do something big as well. Yeah. We're going to start running that here at the farm since it's only 30 minutes South of the office in Austin. But, um, we've got like this awesome, uh, Clay Martin, who's a buddy who's been on the podcast was a Marine recon sniper. One of the best shooters in the world, um, had us training with 22, right. It's just, it's a different, it's a jump, but, um, we get effectively, we can shoot a thousand rounds in a day and not spend much more than a couple of hundred bucks. So like we're thinking of different fun things like that for us to shoot because we've

got different people that have kind of dabbled. They're coming from cities like Chicago and different places where they don't have access to guns. But I grew up in the Bay area, that kind of thing. Um, but they're curious about hunting, you know, they hear Rogan talking about it. They hear, uh, Steve Brunella, they hear John Dudley, they hear this, hear me talking about it. And they're like, well, this seems really cool. And like, well, let's first build some marksmanship. Let's, let's see how this operates. Let's get familiar with getting kicked in the shoulder. And what does that feel like? You know? And, um, and that's fun too. Even archery, we've got a bunch of archery stuff downstairs and I want to set up a little course out here with live animals,

not live animals. We have live animals, but I mean like, uh, uh, the decoy animals. So we'll have like an elk and a white tail and a pig. And then we can go out and get realistic shots. Kind of like can't be thinking about something else. You can't be fucking willy-nilly. Like it's the hyper laser level focus. And I find with distance shooting, the same thing happens, right? So like this narrowing into the super fine right in front of us.

And what that does is it can be a transcendent experience. It can be something that moves us out of our daily routine. And it's not visual like an altered state, but it is different than the norm, right? Much like a flow state is different than the norm. And the better we get at stepping into that more frequently, it's like being able to step into flow more frequently. I think there's something really powerful about that. It's presence. Yeah. And there's such a parallel

to the ice, to what you were just describing as well. Everything you were just describing, I also experience and I aim to experience and practice experiencing when I go into the ice and I go into it because there's so many different ways to approach it. And you see a lot of people out there, how do I relax into this? How do I melt into the intensity of this? How do I surrender? How do I let the cold win and surrender and merge with it? Then that became the focus went from external into like, this is cold, this is cold. I need something to distract myself. And it went internal to one breath, one inhale, one exhale, and just really focused internal. It became transcended. It became meditation. It couldn't be anywhere else, but right there, a forced meditation, if you will.

And then I started noticing that that would translate out to when I'm doing my 15 mile runs and I would get to that spot where I would start to feel the lactic acid buildup. And I would start to feel that, that, that heart rate increase. And I would just relax into it and push into it. And there's this beautiful dichotomy in this, this, these two sides of this coin and this edge to play with that I love playing with, which is how do we greet those extreme moments with that softness? How do you greet firing a gun with the softness of, of relax? You, I was going to ask you that, but you hit it on the head with one breath. I see so many people that, that mistakenly take the Wim Hof breath work and combine it with ice bath.

And it's like, ah, that's not, that's not how he's doing this. Right. It's not how he's doing this. Like you're kind of, you're, you're seeing two different things and melding them into one. Like there's a time and a place for the breath work outside of the bath. And really it is about slowing down and, and, and melting it. And I think that that's like the second I made that shift from like, Oh fuck. Oh fuck. To like just, even if it's choppy breaths in here and choppy breaths out, until I can get it smooth, once it's smooth, I'm cool. It doesn't matter if that's 15 seconds or a minute.

Once I'm there, I'm cool. And it's such a good feeling when you get to that smoothness. Yeah. And that does translate out. It translates out into getting cut off you know in the freeway it translates to your boss yelling at you translates to any of these other moments where there's an acute stressor stressor and you can realize very quickly oh the breath is what i worked on before exactly you know and that's that calm breath there's a repeat pattern there i had a

guy uh when i was fighting in the uf, I was always a fucking panicked out, monkey mind guy when I was in the UFC. I could never calm my nerves. So I've worked with different people to try to help that. Never mastered it in the UFC, but I did get some mastery with that fighting Jason Ellis a couple of times for exhibitions. I had a little microdose of mushrooms, what helps.

But that reset, as many times as you practice that throughout the day, a specific breath work pattern or the cold, and you're calming with the breath. There's a neurophysiological adaptation that takes place. So your body remembers, this is the state that I go into from this breath, no matter what I'm facing, even if I'm going to freeze to death, I can approach it with ease, right? So getting yelled at the unthinkable happens, whatever fucking goes down. The second you hit that breath, your body remembers exactly where it's going to go. The nervous system goes, oh, okay. I'm seeing something that scares the shit of me, but my breath just told me I'm okay. And I just fucking relax into the moment, right? That's a superpower. Yeah, it is. And the reality is you are okay. And that's where it's so wild to see in

our modern world is we're getting charged up for reasons where our bodies are safe and you see this before you get into the ice bath too you start to feel a little bit of drip of that adrenaline you get a little anxious it's like wow it's amazing your mind's creating this you're totally warm you're safe right now but it's it's like a bell goes off i love that you use getting cut off on a freeway this literally happened to me last week i'm not even kidding i'm driving home i got my fish 101 burrito so cal is a fucking wonderful place for getting cut off in traffic. Thankfully, not so much in San Diego as it is to LA, but I swear I was so stoked. I got my fish one-on-one burrito. I was driving home in a happy mood. And then some guy is, comes up and just hailing me and then

swerves over and cuts me off so close. And I'm just in my new car as well. And like almost hit me. And instantly my heart rate started increasing. Like I felt my heart beating out of my chest and I noticed myself shallow breath. I noticed myself charged up. And then instantly without even having to think about it consciously, I felt myself take a deep inhale and long, slow exhale. And then I started to feel my heart rate slow down a little bit and I was like, Oh my goodness. And I just, I followed that until I was calm. And then I left that back there. And how many times before I'd be driving home and I'd be thinking like, I'm going to go chase that guy or like, what should I have done? MacGruber, you start saying the license plate over and over again. And how many times I would have done that, but it was such a beautiful reminder. And that's why,

that's why I do the ice bath. It's like, how do we take the practice out of the ice bath? We talk about that a lot. How do we take the ice bath? What are those daily ice bath moments that you face and how can you use the ice bath as training as your practice arena to then take it into the day and be just a more calm, more regulated, more centered person to be able to handle the shit that life throws at you, the curve balls that the day's gonna throw, whatever comes your way, how can I be okay and be here in my state and in my peace regardless of what's going on? How can I be an unconditional thriver versus a conditional liver

and wait for other things to be okay for me to feel good or me to thrive? How can I cultivate that within myself? And that's an important muscle to build is learning, is building that memory, like you're saying, that flexibility, that strength in your nervous system to be able to help come back to center and calm and build that memory to respond throughout the day. Yeah. And what you're speaking to is people talk about the victim mentality and shit like that.

And, you know, it's like talking about psychedelics. You always got to give the disclaimer, you know, not for everybody, you know, right set and setting that kind of shit. Anytime you talk about victimhood, you got to say like, yes, there are certain circumstances where there's absolutely real victims, rape, molestation, all that shit. Anything that happens to a fucking kid. Absolutely. Truly, truly get victimized.

No doubt about that. But at the same time, if you're expecting life to deliver you the balancing act, like that fucking guy cut me off and you're just waiting for the next thing to bring you joy to balance you out, then you're actually the victim because you're waiting for the thing. You've not taken the steering wheel into your own hands per se and acknowledge the fact that you're responsible for your internal state. You're relying on the external world to deliver you external promise or external happiness. Right. And that's a fucking rollercoaster. It's been now more than ever, you know,

now more than ever, it's a rollercoaster. So especially with like, man, I used to, I've talked, I've said this a few times on the podcast, but I used to laugh at my parents and any adult for that matter, for watching the news. And like, can't you guys see is like, I was, it was like, almost like an alien coming here, you know, and kind of seeing the different, like, what are the weird human shit that we're doing? I look at the adults and be like, why are they watching this shit? It's always negative. It's always shit show. It's always the clickbait. It's always the whatever, you know, and then we get clickbait when the internet comes around. And then now slowly, but surely, or maybe overnight, all of our social media is the news. And even if it's delivering the right news,

that's not misinformation. And it's the thing that is the truth. It's always shit. It's always absolute shit. And if I'm not in control of my own internal vehicle, that's never going to put me in a good mood. That's never going to make me happy or show me fucking promise for the world.

Like, well, at least that thing happened. Now we're in good hands. Like, no, it's always more fuckery. At least with whatever the algorithm is showing me at this point. It's like, not great. And that just means that I have to be in control of myself. I have to be the moderator. Otherwise that bleeds into everything else I do. I don't want to take that stink with me to the office. I certainly don't want to take it into my house around my kids. I have to be able to balance that. And I think one of the most important shifts, like right when I got into this, right when I got into breathwork and cold, cold, I was still fighting.

Then when I went to on, it was my first 40 hour a week desk job. And I fought hard to make sure I didn't have to be there 40 hours, you know, like, Hey, a lot of this needs to be done in the field. And it's true. I was the office guinea pig. hey, a lot of this needs to be done in the field. And it's true. I was the office guinea pig. I had a lot to do in the field, in the gym. I could walk from my desk to the jiu-jitsu mats. I could walk to the sauna or the gym.

There was access that was unlike any other job. But at the same time, it still was a job. How do I shift gears from work mode into dad mode? And that's where I found the sauna and the ice bath in particular, the ice bath. Cause I didn't always have an hour to do contrast, but I could do a few minutes in the ice bath and come back a fucking totally different person for my kids. Totally changed, hit the reset button, get high on my own supply, get the neurochemistry rocking and rolling, lower inflammation, fat loss, and all the other shit. That was just a side.

Right, right, right. And it happens to have those accoutrements. Very important, but not why I was doing it, you know, but to come in with full presence and to be there for my kids the way I would want to. Like if I was going to write it out, well, I'd be calm. I wouldn't have any other shit going on in my mind. I'd be off my phone. I'd be blah, blah, blah. How do I get there? Three minutes of doing this thing will get me there. Well, tell me about this. Because this is, oddly enough, I don't know how long we've been doing this thing will get me there. Well, tell me about this. Because this is, oddly enough, I don't know how long we've been doing this, seven, maybe not quite seven years,

17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, and we're in 23. We're in this, we're approaching seven years here of podcasting. And I've never had on a guy that really understands. I had one Wim Hof instructor on before. I should say that. But never, never, you know, a company man, never somebody that like made that their life

and their business. What are your best practices when it comes to optimization? And what are your best practices when it comes to the cold tub? Because you've got, you know, there's a wide variety of how you do this stuff. And you know, this is an Ironman versus like sprint work

or versus, you know, like different day hit training, right? You're probably juggling all sorts of shit that most people have dabbled in loosely. And, and the same can be applied for these technologies that are mainly used for recovery or mainly used for spiritual purposes. Depends, you know, everyone's got a different goal with it, but because of the different reasons people come to these things, the, the use of them is completely different. Absolutely. You know, and like I've had guys say like, oh, if your nervous system is shot, you know, take it at 50 degrees for an hour, that kind of thing. And it's like, yeah, maybe, you know, but I'm just curious, what are your thoughts? How do you utilize this stuff?

Do you do much contrast, you know, and then timing of that, you know, one of the biggest questions I get is if I'm going to hit the sauna and ice bath, how long do I have to wait before I can work out or run to where I'm not getting any train effect? If I hit the gym, how long do I have to wait before I hit the sauna and ice bath? So dive into all that stuff because it's fascinating to me. It is fascinating. And again, there's so much out there that contradicts itself and so much out there that is evolving. And there's a lot of blind spots too in the research, and there's a lot more research being done. We're actually doing some research as well in the middle of doing some and have a lot more research planned with just so

many blind spots out there with cold immersion. So like you said, it depends. It's like saying, okay, cool, working out's great. Okay, what should I do for workout? Well, it depends. Who are you? What are your goals? We talk a lot about what we call a goal-oriented approach to cold water immersion. So first it's understanding, like what's identifying, what's your, what's your goal. And, and, and your goal could be different depending on, on, on whatever days it is. But generally speaking for beginners, I always like to start with 55 degrees for two minutes, full immersion as a goal. Uh, because you don't know where someone, your chin, you're, we're not on video right now, but your hands just went to your chin. So like

all the way your neck is in. It's a lot easier to do arms out. And I like to go and instruct people to go full body immersion because then you're getting your full body in, right? You're getting up to your lymph nodes. You're getting inflammation reduction on your lymph nodes and you're getting more of a lymphatic drain when you get your lymph nodes under. So I go like up to the chin, full body

in, hands and feet in, and start there. And then you start to work your way down from there. But that can be, that can take some time to adapt to. So generally speaking, and that's because one of the popular studies has shown 14 Celsius or 57 degrees Fahrenheit is the optimal temperature where all those other benefits were researched of your dopamine increasing, your norepinephrine increasing. That wasn't done in ice. That was done at 57 Fahrenheit, which is not, which is pretty mild, right?

Yeah. And there's even research that suggests at 67 fahrenheit we get benefits of cold shock so i think that there is this comment and i always love to share this and educate because a lot of people see people going to ice baths i'm like oh that's crazy i can't do that or that's not for me but but really you go into the ocean you go into cold water and it feels good there's a reason it feels good right or you feel good after that so i think that there's and we're going to see a movement of a lot more everyday people utilizing cold immersion, which is great and fantastic. And I love it. My, my aunt who's 65 years old gets in the ice bath every single day because it helps her with her energy and her arthritis and gets for the reset.

It's fantastic. She's not an extreme athlete, but so, so it, it depends. Um, I like it in the morning. I like it as a wake up. I like it as a pick me up, as a way to do the hard thing first and to get to that breath. And then after the feeling of getting out after, it's just like, you're just, it's downstream from there. Like you've done something difficult. You've got a win under your belt. And for me, the temperature I like right now is 45 to 47 degrees, like upper forties. It feels, it's a nice temp for me to get into that, into that, into that rhythm. I also don't time myself. I go for feeling, I go based on feeling. Huberman talks a lot about

like the walls of noticing where do you come up against a wall of resistance? When I hit a wall, I breathe three times. I see if it's good to keep going. But the biggest advice I give to anybody in their cold immersion journey is like, is, is experiment with it. See what happens. Cause I have a friend that, and a customer of ours who goes in the ice bath every night, like right before bed. And it's amazing. I have another friend who would be too jacked up to go to sleep after going to the ice bath. So everybody really is different. And there's really no hard and fast rule besides doing it safely and doing it, um, doing, giving your body what you need. And so I like to look at it that way of like, what do I need right now? And how can I give my body what I need? The other thing around, I do love saunas. We have a

sauna in our office. I'm in that sauna, I mean, several times a week, probably four or five times a week. And I love doing just heat too, without the cold. I love just heat. There's a super stack, we call it the super stack, the the super the super heat protocol where it's it's doing four rounds of 30 minutes in above 185 in the sauna and that's a and and and the studies on that how much time do you have in between uh 15 minutes in between okay so 30 in 15 out to to regulate 30 and 15 out and doing that four quarters it's like a four quarters of a football game that's fucking gangster and it's three gangster. And it's three hours long too. It's three hours long. It's a send. It's an absolute send that you do with a friend. And it becomes like, by the end of it, I did it with our director

of coaching and performance and one of my best friends. And literally by the end of the first time we did it, we're, we're laying on the bottom of the sauna, humming and holding hands. Like we got to that zone. You know what I mean? Like you get to that like sweat lodge level zone and it's just fantastic. But, but, uh, I gotta look up at the numbers on that, but the, the effect and the boost and growth hormone for doing that, it's absurd. You're like, look at it absurd. So do a workout and do that every once in a while, but, but back and forth contrast. I like, I just like to give myself some time to adjust before going from extreme hot to extreme cold a couple minutes until you feel, you know, when you feel like, okay, I've got my breath back under me. I feel like I'm in my, in my normal

resting heart rate. And I feel like I'm, I'm good. Then I transition in and from, from hot to cold. And, and then also working out too. A lot of people like to wait after finishing a workout or a hypertrophy type of workout where you're going to build muscle because cold flushes inflammation. And after a workout, inflammation is helpful to bring blood supply to your muscles. But there's different perspectives on that too, because it depends. Are you trying to optimize for muscle gain, then probably wait a few hours before going to the cold? Or are you trying to optimize for getting back and being less sore in the gym the next day? And there's diminishing effects from both approaches. So we worked a lot of NBA teams and a lot of NBA athletes, and I was talking to VP performance for the LA Clippers and we're in

their facility. And they was like, yeah, a lot of people say wait after training, but during season, I send the guys in right after because I'm trying to get them less sore the next day so they can perform even better. And I think that those net gains from them being less sore and performing the next day better are going to outweigh whatever potential inflammation flush happens. Interesting perspective, right? Yeah. So there's all these interesting perspectives on it. And again, it comes down to what are you doing this for? And then how can I experiment and play and use this as a tool for me? And we also offer for everybody that's in our community, we have what we call our Legend Circle. It's an online platform and an app that allows you to connect the community. And we actually have a guided audio immersion, so guided protocols for specific need states that follow along. So you can have the framing and the voice along our edge sequence, which we break down into three phases, pre-cooling, intra-cooling, and post-cooling. So before cooling, what are some breath or movement that you can do to get yourself centered or an intention

you can set? Intra-cooling, what's a breath that you can follow or instruction you can follow or focus you can put your mind to when you're in the tub? And then post-cooling, when you get out, how can you be present as the blood flow shifts and what's some breath or movement that you can do to warm yourself back up and recenter? So we're building out dozens and dozens of these protocols and these guided immersions in this library for people so that you can like press play and follow along and and then offer different goal orientations so one of my favorites called the ice espresso which is an afternoon pick-me-up it's a quick it's a 90 seconds get in head dunk come back up for five breaths head dunk again get up five breaths and get out and it's like a quick shock so that protocol is different than if i'm trying to do different than

i do after my 17 mile run I did yesterday. I'm going to do a longer soak at a cool, at a, at a, probably a milder temperature than that, you know, 40 degrees or 37 degrees. So there, there, it's a fun conversation to explore because there's no hard and fast answers. Yeah. Yeah. I like that. Yeah. I've had, uh, one of the protocols that I've gotten with recently is just if it's post, if it's post workout and it's something hard and,

and now, you know, like I, I fucking lift two, maybe three days a week, max doing blood flow restrictions. So it's very, very chill.

It's not like, it's a, it's a, it's absolutely legit, dude. It blows my fucking mind, but it's great. I mean,

for muscle building and fat loss, it's, it's kind of hard to compete with. Yeah. Um, but it, it takes a low toll on the nervous system. That's a big one. So I can get back into it, especially now

I'm boxing and kickboxing once a week. I go to jujitsu probably once or twice a week. And I'm hoping to spar once a week in there. And then we're hoping I want to get into running twice a week. I've been able to only run once a week or once every two weeks because of a calf injury, which now

I finally got fucking under wraps. I did just an easy pace, one mile and a half yesterday. Everything felt fucking great. But if we're sauna and after I hit the sauna, especially if it's after weight training or something like that, or boxing, it's sauna. I'd get in the ice bath, just dunk and pop right out. So it's only to reset. It's not to spend any time in the cold. It's just so I can go back in and do another 10, 15 minutes. And we probably only do a couple rounds like that. But it's really, you know, the cold is used to reset me so I can get more heat, you know, and then on days where I don't have that, then I can actually spend time in the cold and really work on inflammation and getting that body to change, you know, the constriction, the vasodilation and constriction. Yeah. And

that's a cool part too, that I love the way that you use that. We love that the cold shock or those, those quick dunks. I do that more, more days than not. Like I use that as that reset as well. I get in, I dunk, I come up for a couple of breaths and I get out. Like I'm not staying for a deep, what we call like a deeper cooling where you're like really getting that flush and you're really getting that vasoconstriction and there's, there's benefit for both just depending on what you're, what you're looking for. But, but as a quick reset, as a quick dunk, like it's the, it's the greatest. It is the very best. It's the very best. Well, dude, it's been absolutely phenomenal having you on the podcast. I'm gonna give you a little tour here at the farm, show you everything we got going on and maybe we'll hit up, hit a plunge together. I love it. I appreciate it. Thanks for having me

and looking forward to all to come. Awesome brother. Well, tell me where people can find you online and where they can get dialed in with your company. Yeah, Edge Theory Labs on Instagram. IG is our biggest platform. So follow along there. You can see all the stuff that we're up to there. All the exciting new product launches we're working on as well is some fun things in the pipeline.

And then personally at Joshua Dean Church, you can see all the different retreats that I lead as well. One coming up in the winter time here in Jackson Hole, Wyoming, which will be rad. Dope, dude. We were looking to go there. We got a couple of buddies that live out there, but we chose Montana instead. It's still on the list, man. What a beautiful, beautiful place that is. Special land out there for sure to go down and connect with and then connecting with the rivers and the waterfalls and such. It's what a way to experience the land and

the fullness of it. So my Instagram at joshu Joshua Dean church and yeah, everything else you'll find from there. So brother, thanks again. Appreciate you.