Kyle Kingsbury Podcast - #327 Classical Teachings of The Middle Path w/ Dr Robert J Gilbert

Episode Date: November 1, 2023

Dr Robert Gilbert is as well versed in the mystery schools as maybe anyone I’ve had on this show. He has worked closely with Ibrahim Karim on BioGeometry, Robert teaches a fully initiative course on the tradition of Rosicrucionists, along with many other vibrational and Crystal/Mineral courses.  Today we get a sprinkling of his knowledge base. He takes us into the structure and some content of his Rosicrucian Course and touches on his work with Ibrahim Karim in BioGeometry. He gives us multiple concrete examples to add context to these esoteric teachings and I’m still impressed with how well he communicates all of these topics. Please dive in, enjoy and share this far and wide. Love yall   ORGANIFI GIVEAWAY Keep those reviews coming in! Please drop a dope review and include your IG/Twitter handle and we’ll get together for some Organifi even faster moving forward.   Connect with Robert: Website: Vesica.org  Instagram: @vesicainstitute  YouTube: The Vesica Institute    Show Notes: Rudolph Steiner - Karmic Relationships Vol 1(YouTube) Vesica - BioGeometry Courses Vesica - Spiritual Sciences Courses  EPISODE 221 - Dr. Robert Gilbert: Sacred Geometry Spotify Apple   SECRETS OF THE ROSICRUCIANS & FREEMASONS W/ DR. ROBERT GILBERT | AMP 419 Spotify  Apple  Sacred Geometry - Gaia TV    Sponsors: Organifi Go to organifi.com/kkp to get my favorite way to easily get the most potent blend of high vibration fruits, veggies and other goodies into your diet! Click that link and use code “KKP” at checkout for 20% off your order! Neurohacker Collective Run these guys’ Qualia Senolytic, a two day per month cleans to flush out all your “zombie” cells. Head to neurohacker.com/kkp for 50% OFF and use “KKP” at checkout for an additional 15% off your first order!  Cured Nutrition has a wide variety of stellar, naturally sourced, products. They’re chock full of adaptogens and cannabinoids to optimize your meatsuit. You can get 20% off by heading over to www.curednutrition.com/KKP  using code “KKP” Lucy Go to lucy.co and use codeword “KKP” at Checkout to get 20% off the best nicotine gum in the game, or check out their lozenge. To Work With Kyle Kingsbury Podcast   Connect with Kyle: Fit For Service Academy App: Fit For Service App  Instagram: @livingwiththekingsburys - @gardenersofeden.earth  Odysee: odysee.com/@KyleKingsburypod  Youtube: Kyle Kingbury Podcast  Kyles website: www.kingsbu.com - Gardeners of Eden site    Like and subscribe to the podcast anywhere you can find podcasts. Leave a 5-star review and let me know what resonates or doesn’t.

I'm back, baby. I was out in Sedona for eight days with the Fit for Service crew, our last core event of the year, and it was absolutely incredible. And I am back for one week. And then I'm off to Vegas Wednesday for Arcadia for our festival. And that's going to be fucking rad. I'm super excited for it. I'm not excited that I'm gone two out of three weeks. I don't think anybody's scheduling that shit has kids, but other than that, it's going to be awesome and super stoked to get to meet a lot

of the people there and spend more time with them. Dr. Robert Gilbert is the guest on today's podcast. Somebody I've tracked for a very long time. You might have seen him on Gaia TV. He has some really amazing shows there. He was on Paul Cech's podcast a while back, and I absolutely fell in love with him, his wealth of knowledge. He is one of the top students under Dr. Ibrahim Karim from Biogeometry. Many of you have heard me mention that name before on this podcast. And this dude has a wealth of knowledge, a deep wealth of knowledge. He started the Vesica Institute at vesica.org and has a ton of different videos and materials there, courses, articles.

I'm going to be taking the essential teachings and practices of spiritual science. And you'll get a better idea of what that's alluding to through this podcast. But one of the things that I really loved about Dr. Robert Gilbert is his deep wealth of knowledge in the ancient mystery schools. Now I've got like Manly P. Hall. I've got some different texts on the subject, but the problem with the text is that they just talk about it. They don't take you through it. And what Dr. Robert Gilbert is doing is taking people through the actual mystery school, which is phenomenal because that really is an initiatory practice. And I think it's something, I mean, you know my love for plant medicines and things like that. And I'm also always looking for different ways to dive deeper, whether that's darkness, fasting, Native American vision quest, things like that,

I find to be awesome tools and they're legal. There's something that everyone can access. If somebody was averse to drugs because their brother was a drug addict to bad drugs, then never wanted to try ayahuasca because they associated that as a bad drug or all drugs are the same. It's really important that we have other avenues that can reach people who are ready. And there's probably a little bit more respect and reverence of saying you're gonna go

for six or seven days into pitch black. There's certainly more respect and reverence for saying I'm not gonna have food or water for four days or longer, right? And do a sweat lodge before you go into that. I mean, that's a whole different animal. And I think it's a little bit more palpable for us to realize like, damn, I'm going to be by myself for that long in nature or in the darkness. I think we can grab onto that. I absolutely love this guy. Dr. Robert Gilbert is phenomenal. He had a podcast, a great podcast with Aubrey Marcus, and they really dove into the Rosicrucians on that.

And I am fascinated by it. Rudolph Steiner had a wealth of knowledge in the Rosicrucians, and I've been deep diving him. I wanna know more about that, but because they had spent so much time together on that particular topic, I ventured away from it, even though I am highly curious and we touched on it a little bit, but I tried to cover as much ground as I could with this one because he has so much knowledge. He's going to be speaking at Arcadia, which I'm fucking thrilled for, just

the opportunity to get to hang with him a little bit more and pick his brain. And then he's got some other really just, I mean, the site's absolutely incredible. You can learn about anything, sacred geometry, you name it, lots of cool stuff and the scientific approach to the utilization of these things. So he's a brilliant dude. I'm going to have him back on the podcast for sure. Share this far and wide, anybody that's, you know, and there's a different cut. There's a different group of people watching Gaia TV versus regular TV. I get that. And that's for better or worse. There's a different group of people watching Gaia TV versus regular TV. I get that. And that's for better or worse.

It's not saying that everyone that's in the Gaia TV group is of great moral character and all the other things. I mean, anybody can be into that stuff. But if you've got friends that are into that kind of stuff, they're going to love this podcast. Share it with them. They'll probably know who Dr. Gilbert already is. If this is your first time hearing him,

I'd highly recommend you check him out on Paul Chex Living 4D. We'll link to that in the show notes. You can listen to him on Aubrey Marcus podcast. We'll link to that in the show notes as well. And if you want to know more, watch him on Gaia and we'll link to that in the show notes and then dive deep into the full arsenal of this guy's library. It's really, really incredible. And it's my great hope that after taking this first class that I'll start to rabbit hole a lot more of his material. And that's it. Share this far and wide with your friends,

leave us a five-star rating with one or two ways. The show has helped you out in life. Organifi all year long. We'll be getting a free product to the best, the best review at the end of each month. So on Spotify or iTunes, just do that and support our sponsors. They make this show fiscally possible.

Without them, it wouldn't exist. I love them all. I've handpicked them. They are incredible, incredible sponsors that have been around for a long time. Organifi has been one of my longest running sponsors for years, organifi.com slash KKP. Now my homies at Organifi,

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And I also have to read this disclaimer. Warning, this product contains nicotine. Nicotine is an addictive chemical. Remember, if you're interested in a better way to use nicotine, visit Lucy.co and be sure to use that promo code KKP. And without further ado, Dr. Robert Gilbert. Dr. Robert Gilbert, it's so good to have you. Great. Thanks for having me here. It's good to join you. I had heard about you on Paul Chex. Paul's a good friend of mine and a mentor. And I had a hunt where I was driving with a good friend of mine who actually handles a lot of

Aubrey Marcus's guests and things like that. So we had a drive from Austin, Texas up to Northern Colorado, and we chewed through a bunch of your material, YouTube videos and the podcast with Paul and I simply couldn't get enough. And then Aubrey ended up snagging you first. And I was like, well, now I have to have him on. So it is a pleasure to be here with you. And there's a lot, you know, that we'll cover here because of your wealth of knowledge. You have so much, but I do want to start off the podcast as I always do with really understanding the inner workings of you. What was life like growing up and what drove you, you know, on the path that you've been on into discovering all the things that you've been glued to? Because it's not,

you know, this isn't something that when you're growing up, they say like, well, you could become, you know, what Dr. Robert Gilbert has become. Like there's no, there's no real carved path for that. That just makes sense to people. So it's, it's clear that you've, you've always walked your own path and, and it's an impressive one at that. So I'd love for you to dive deep into this. Great. Thank you. I appreciate that. Well, I think relevant to the work that I evolved into doing, the key thing for me was always that I had only understood things in the world when I see them from the larger context first, when I see it from the big picture, and then I drill down into the individual components. At that point, I could really

understand how things work, why things work, the relative importance or significance of different things in life. But I really always needed to see the big picture first. And so a major part of that is to really understand the big picture of anything. It requires seeing the overall pattern. And so from a young age, I always focused on what is the pattern behind this aspect of life, whether it's health or relationships or career, whatever it is. What is the key set of patterns that really control this? Because I came to understand that you really don't have freedom in life. You really don't have the ability to really make an informed choice about anything in life until you understand what the overall context and pattern is, and then you clearly understand

the ramification of the different choices that you could make. Now, connected with that, I'd always had an interest in what are the larger metaphysical significant aspects of life. I've always innately understood the classical concept of memento mori, that we should always be aware of death because our life could end unexpectedly at any time. And life is a limited time opportunity, as I like to say, and that we really need to have an understanding that rather than frittering away our lifetimes with things that really won't add up to anything, that we need to focus on the things that are the most significant for the two main aspects of life,

and that is really the inner and the outer. What are the most important things to focus on for my own personal development and my own inner journey to work on my own potential and to become the person I want to become with all the siddhas or powers that can be developed by a human being and earthly incarnation? And on the other hand, what is the service that I'm meant to provide to other people? What is my relative comparative advantage for what I know or can do well compared to others so that the thing that I'm doing in life can really become the most significant offer that I can make? And so these are really the background for me. I also came to

understand over time that there's a very important principle in life. I came to understand that we can ask ourselves the question, if I had infinite time and infinite money, what would I choose to do with my time in whatever time I've been allotted here on this particular incarnation. And to then, once you've found what is that thing that you would choose to do if you had all the resources you ever need, it really shows you what's the most important thing to you. What's the most significant aspect to you? I've always found that it's interesting to see how people perceive the world, because some

people will have endless fascination and understanding of certain topics that, for me, I have no innate resonance with or don't make any sense to me, and vice versa, that we really have particular things in life that have always motivated us and that we somewhat innately understand and that we're drawn towards. And that's directly connected to this whole idea about what would I do if I had infinite resources? And then if I don't have infinite resources, how do we then make our career, our income generation, our work in life, that thing that we would be doing anyway, even if we didn't have to generate the money to pay the bills. So I think that's some of the key things that kind of led me to where I am today. I love that. And I track completely because

I credit myself with, I feel like I'm a lifelong student, you know, and I'm, it's the thing that lights me up is learning and the podcast helps with that, but reading and then the application of these things, experience all a part of the learning process. And in many ways I get paid to learn still, you know, I'm paid to learn. I'm paid to be educated with you alongside, you know, the listeners of this podcast. And I really enjoy that when you can match vocation with the thing that's going to help with the income. It certainly makes for a more beautiful life for sure. Wonderful. At what point, I was just going to say, at what point did you start gravitating

towards some of the deeper, you know, teachings from guys like Rudolf Steiner? And obviously, you know, you've linked up with Dr. Ibrahim Karim and are one of his top professors. There's so much there. If you look at the end of it where you're at right now and you're just like, holy shit, where did that really begin where you started to gravitate towards some of the ancient mystery schools and deeper understandings of reincarnation and things like that? I've always had an innate interest in it and somewhat of an innate understanding of parts of it. But I grew up in, for much of my youth, I was growing up in rural parts of South Carolina, where at a time before the Internet existed, you know, you have a fairly limited access to, you know, these deep wisdom traditions.

But I was very fortunate that I grew up in a family that was very accepting of researching, inquiring into anything. It wasn't very dogmatic, so that was great. And so over time, I just would look into whatever was classical spiritual knowledge that was available. And a lot of it was Eastern to begin with.

So that when I joined the Marine Corps when I was 20, one of my goals was to be stationed in Japan so that I could study the Japanese esoteric systems, things like Shingon Buddhism and various types of systems that they have in both Japan and the East in general. And I did so. And I was stationed in Okinawa for almost three years. And I found that to be absolutely fascinating. So I found that the Japanese, Tibetan, Chinese, Indian traditions had so much deep wisdom and knowledge in them. And also some of the lessons for life that were contained in the Japanese system. You know, the classic samurai tradition, the acceptance of death, and always focusing on doing the one right thing regardless of consequences.

These kinds of things, I think, are important life wisdom that are eternal across time for everyone to really integrate as we're making choices in life. And then when I got out of the Marine Corps at 23, I had a spiritual awakening experience on the summer solstice where I had a lot of spontaneous recall of what in classical traditions would be called reading the name inscribed on the stone. And what they meant by that is you start to remember things about who you are, why you're here, things related to past incarnations. Again, getting some context for who am I right now? Why am I in this place? What am I supposed to be doing? So I had a kind of spontaneous awakening experience on that summer solstice. And that then led me to doing research to find sources of information that matched what I had

remembered or received. And I found that the Rosicrucian tradition of Europe had a particular initiation saying, which is, in the beginning was the memory. And what they mean by this is that the start of your path is when you remember, who am I? Why am I here? What did I choose to do in this incarnation? And that led me to the work of Rudolf Steiner. Certain experiences that I had, certain things that I had remembered, such as the passage through the sun sphere before incarnation, and what was known in classical times as the seven heavenly halls, which is the spiritual journey that we take after death and into the next physical incarnation, that I found that Rudolf Steiner's work from Europe really matched my experiences very well,

although I knew nothing of it at the time I had the experience, and that Steiner's work really is a type of modern encyclopedia of esoteric or spiritual knowledge. He has over 350 volumes of either books that he wrote or collected lectures. And I just found a treasure trove of powerful information there. And I actually was able to find at the University of South Carolina in their library that somebody there had purchased a set of one of Steiner's most important lecture series that is considered by many people that really know Steiner to be like the height of his work, which was called Karmic Relationships. And the Karmic Relationships series were collected lectures from the 1920s by Steiner, where he's talking about

remembering who we are in a particular incarnation and how impulses develop in a person's lifetime from one lifetime to the next. And that was very, very helpful. So Steiner became a very important foundation for me to remember these things and understand the larger context. And then I began to expand out further into both the Western and Eastern tradition. At that time, the knowledge from the internal alchemy of China was beginning to become accessible, really for the first time ever. Things that were highly hidden before, in the early 1980s, the internal alchemy practices of

Taoist yoga were first starting to be taught publicly or to be published in books. And I found that to be one of the most amazing systems ever developed on the planet for understanding human internal energy and how our internal system works for our spiritual development. I still think it's one of the most incredible systems that's existed ever in recorded human history. And now we have great access to it. Now that we're at the time of this recording in 2023, a lot of information formerly highly secret has been released from that. And I found that this was true for many traditions. One thing that I often talked about in my courses is that we live at a time where we have a tremendous blessing and a

curse. And that blessing is that we have access to incredibly deep and formally secret, hidden, spiritual, and energetic information. It's unbelievable that today, things that you'd have had to spend a lifetime trying to search out traveling around the world or to be accepted into some very closed society you can now get as a book for 1695 and you've just got this incredible access information that was very hidden before so that's the blessing and i found in this particular incarnation that's been one of the most fascinating things like oh my god the stuff that required so much work to get pieces of this before, we have so much available now. But it also leads to our curse. And that curse is that the release of this information has often been in a very fragmented and piecemeal form. So that often today, I find that today in modern metaphysics, many people in the

modern metaphysical world actually have a knowledge base or an education that is much inferior to a person a hundred years ago. An educated esotericist in the early 1900s with the growth of the Theosophical Society and things like that, but often have a richer knowledge base than people have today, even though we have access to much more information now. But that's because of the fragmentation of the information and the sensationalization of some of the information where we don't always understand the larger context, the big picture of what this information came from in different traditions. And that's one reason why I created the Vesica Institute is I wanted to be able to teach whole systems, to be able to teach the patterns behind systems and to put together pieces that had only been released in fragments before so that people could see as clearly and concisely as possible the big picture

and then be able to make informed decisions in their own life based on understanding how it all fits together. I love that. I've been eyeballing your website for a while, the Vesca Institute, and I noticed that there was, you know, you have a coursework that previously was unreleased, but recorded on the Rosicrucians. And I love the podcast you did with Aubrey, where you really broke that down. I'm curious, in some of the courses that you release, is it more of a history on what they were doing inside the Mystery School? Or is it something that actually initiates somebody that

goes through that course? It's meant to be an initiation. Now, we do, to be able to navigate it, need to have some historical knowledge. So there is some of that there, but the vast majority of what's in the online courses is actually related to the practical activities. So I go into a lot of historical background in the Rosicrucian series that's available on my website, which was recorded many years ago. But that was my giving people an understanding of the patterns in that tradition to understand things like what are the patterns in time that have controlled human evolution, like the seven archangelic ages, or the concepts coming from the Eastern tradition of the four great yugas, or things like this, to give people a sense of the development of modern spiritual history,

step by step. Because although that is, we could be considered as intellectual or historical knowledge, it's absolutely essential to understand it so that we can see what is then to be expected as the next steps of an orderly consecutive process of growth, of alchemical development. So that's why the historical knowledge is actually quite important because it gives us a frame of reference for how things develop in alchemical stages. And that's true for our own lives and for all of human evolution. And then we can start to understand what is the unique opportunities of the current lifetime based on the alchemical steps of human evolution that have come before and where we are now, and then where that's going to lead to further in the future.

So it's essential context for making an informed decision. So for example, we have today access to an incredible range of different types of spiritual exercises or practices that we could do, but we only have limited time and energy. So how do we make an informed choice about what meditative practices, what energetic or health practices am I going to focus on at this particular time of my life? Because there's so many different things we could choose. So that means understanding, again, this larger context of how different spiritual traditions have at different time periods created particular practices that we could do that were essential for the activation of something in the

human mind, energy, body that needs to come online, that needs to be activated for the next stage of our development. And so I put things together so that we had that context, but also gave practices. And particularly, I put together a series of practice-based online courses. So the Rosicrucian series, although it has practices, also has a very strong historical background and spiritual context background. And then for when people are starting on what I call the spiritual science track, I always recommend to them that they begin with the class that I created called Essential Teachings and Practices of Spiritual Science. I created that so that regardless of a person's background or lack thereof in spiritual studies or esoteric knowledge,

I could bring them up stage by stage to what are the fundamental things to understand about spiritual development, what are some of the key exercises, and have them go step by step through those exercises. So, for example, in the online course, Essential Teachings and Practices of Spiritual Science, I go into important contextual aspects like the different levels of structure in the human being and how that's seen in different traditions and how they'll approach that for development about how we develop our energy system in three different ways. And in different traditions, at different times, they would choose one of the three different key methods, which are almost never talked about in a clear contextual manner for us to develop ourselves to a higher level. And that is we can either get activated in our energy system from above to below, or we can do it from below to above, or we can do it from the center out. Now, this is rarely spoken of contextually, so people understand these choices. And particularly the third option, the center out

development of the human energy system, is not well understood today at all, even though for the Rosicrucians of Europe, that is the key method. And we need to understand that the original Rosicrucian tradition in Europe, and I'm not talking about any particular Rosicrucian organization today. I'm not really an organizational guy. I don't belong to any Rosicrucian physical organization today. I always make the joke from Woody Allen about, I wouldn't want to join any organization that would have somebody like me for a member. So I'm not really an organizational guy. I see lots of times people get, organizations can be very helpful. But I also see in certain cases that people join organizations and they end up spending more time on political moving ahead in grades or ranks of

the organization than they do on the actual spiritual development, which I think is a bit of an esoteric trap that I don't want to fall into. So in this whole aspect of development, again, just focusing on this one example of the three types of developing the energy system, the bottom-up system was the one used in the old Asian systems, things like awakening the kundalini at the base of the spine and then having it come upward. The problem is when kundalini at the base of the spine, and then having it come upward. The problem is when kundalini methods came to the West, big time with the Beatles popularizing Eastern systems in the 1960s, and then you had all of these great Eastern masters coming to the US and then being popularized around the world in the later 60s and the 1970s. And they taught these kundalini yoga systems. Those had been taught in ashrams where people had been prepared

for years and years and years and purified their physical vehicle before they did the activation. Because what happens if you activate the kundalini before you've done that level of work and preparation is you get what is referred to in India as a diverted rising of kundalini. So rather than coming up cleanly from the base of the spine to activate the crown center, what happens is that the energy circuits are too blocked or clogged in various areas, and they go off on these side routes. And so many people developed what was known as Kundalini sickness in the 60s and 70s from doing these Eastern practices without the sufficient level of preparation that had always been done previously classically. That's one reason why in the early 1980s, when the information from the Chinese

Taoist yoga became available, and Taoist yoga is still much less known than Indian yoga in Western metaphysical circles, but it needs to be much better known, is that the Taoist actually clarified what the problem was with the system that people were getting from India about shooting the energy from the base of the spine to the crown center. And again, not only did you have diverted risings, but when you bring all that strong energy into the head and you leave it in the head, it creates what's known as Kundalini sickness. So vertigo, nausea, intense heat in the head and the body, headaches, mania, all types of issues. In the end, it burns everything out. So then you get chronic fatigue. So what the Taoist clarified is you can't just shoot it to the top and leave all the energy

here. This is not a safe place to store energy. Safe place to store energy is in the lower abdomen, what they call the lower dantian or the lower alchemical field, that this energy in the head cannot hold all that kundalini energy rising up to here. It won't be beneficial. So they taught the microcosmic orbit, move the energy up the spine to the top of the head, touch the tip of the tongue to the roof of the mouth, which is the energy conductor to link the energy circuit of the back called the governing vessel in Chinese medicine, touch the tip of the tongue to the roof of the mouth to link it to the conception vessel in the front of the body, and then run it in a cycle. As soon as people start to learn that and do that, then they get over kundalini sickness because there's no longer all this

energy stuck in the head. And then they learn like the next steps of Dallas yoga, which is to be able to circulate a spiral vortex in the lower abdomen to collect all that energy safely. So anyway, this is just a slight commentary on what happened historically that we need to be aware of and not have happened to us in our development based on the bottom-up method of developing the human energy system. Then the top-down system really got popularized with the Christian tradition, where you see these pictures of Jesus being initiated in the River Jordan by John, where you see the dove of the Holy Spirit descending down a column of energy from above into his crown center. And that activates the crown center first with the energies from above us in the column of energy above our heads, which is an incredibly important spiritual

structure. And then the crown activates, and then it activates all the centers going downward. And then the center out method is the one that I then teach in more detail because it's the least known method. I teach in more detail and give people step-by-step instructions on how to do it in Essential Teachings and Practices of Spiritual Science course. And this has been related to the Rosicrucian method from Rudolf Steiner and the original Rosicrucian tradition, not any particular organization today, that worked on developing the heart center first. So not the crown down, not the base up, but developing the heart center first, because in any understanding of the pattern, let's say of the seven chakras, the fulcrum point, the pivot point

is the fourth chakra, the heart, three above, three below. And as we can discuss later with biogeometry, it's critical to activate the center. Activating our center is really the most important practice we could say overall in any type of spiritual development, because we can activate all kinds of different powers and abilities. But if we have no center to organize it, it's all just going to be pure chaos. It's not going to benefit us or anybody else. And so what the Rosicrucians do is they have six exercises that are known as the six basic exercises or the six essential exercises. I go into them in great detail in that online course. And when you do each of these six

exercises, each one of them is going to develop one of the lotus petals of the 12-petal lotus of the heart. Six of the lotus petals were already developed by humanity in an earlier stage of evolution, but we have to consciously develop the other six lotus petals. When we do, the heart goes into activity and it becomes an organizing center for the whole body of energy. And it will also balance the harmful effects of any other earthly experiences that we have or spiritual practices that may not really be beneficial for us if the center has been activated. So I just wanted to give you a concrete example of what I'm talking about from the Essential Teachings and Practices course as like these are essential things to know in getting

started on spiritual development. And then other things like some traditions only do receptive meditation where you have like a clear mind state, like Zen or Vipassana or transcendental meditation. It's all receptive. Other traditions, particularly in the West, do only active meditations, where you're developing your mind power, being able to generate thought forms and projecting thought forms. And usually it's only taught one or the other. And a tradition that teaches one side of this equation will usually ridicule and dismiss the other side. But in fact, it's like breathing or walking. You got to do one and then the other. We have to go constantly into a receptive state where we take in the information.

We don't do anything to try to distort it or to manipulate it at first. We just take in whatever we are dealing with in a receptive way, and then we can actively project with our own mind power the things to happen. And then it becomes the full system. But today it's all fragmented and people don't know that's the full system. And then the later courses in the spiritual science track, like connecting to spiritual realities, talk about more advanced practices of developing the human energy system, developing the centers above the head, which are essential for any type of advanced spiritual practice or consciousness or direct communication with non-physical beings in an undistorted way, as well as developing the centers below the body,

which is almost completely ignored today, and then linking together the patterns above the head with those below the body into a particular form known as the vesica. So that's my long-winded answer to your question about how I've structured this information and that it's very practice-based, but we do have to provide the larger understanding of context so people can navigate it properly and in a free manner. Oh, that makes a lot of sense. So what I'm gathering is that even though they're all correct methods of activation, that coming from the heart might be the best place to start, especially for the non-initiated or somebody that's looking for a place to start and that's why you focus a bit there? Or is it just because that's the least known?

If I was to choose between the three with all of your experience in working with people, it seems like from what I'm gathering that starting from the heart might be the best route to go. That's what I've come to in my own experience and in working with people. I've been so fortunate to meet so many spiritually advanced and fascinating people in my the point that he just radiated light at a very, very high level. You know, he had really done core spiritual transformation in a way that you can take through the gate of death and will affect all of your future incarnations. So again, there are

certain advantages to the different methods you get a lot of energetic development if you do the bottom-up method but there's a lot of things that have to be done if you're going to do the bottom-up method that are often ignored today or not understood today you get certain advantages with the top-down method which is that you can understand what you're doing first and then you can use the power of the mind to be able to balance the activations of the centers below it particularly as you get use the power of the mind to be able to balance the activations of the centers below it, particularly as you get to the sexual centers and things like that, so that it doesn't just become a mania. It's something that you can actually integrate

the core life forces in the body and our sexual relationships in a way that are the most beneficial for us and the people that we're connecting with. But the center out method, I do think is tragically so little known today, is the most important because it allows us to develop an organizing center for all of the other activations in our energy field. I often like to clarify for people that everything we have today in metaphysics is all about healing. And I found years ago that if I put the word healing in the title of a course, I get three times as many people as if I had some other title that I was using. So everybody's looking for healing all the time. But the thing is, healing is not meant to be

a goal in itself. Healing is for the purpose of making us whole so that we can actually do the work we came here to do. We get various levels of trauma and injury on all kinds of subtle body and consciousness levels, emotional levels, in the process of incarnating into our earthly family and the things we have to go through in the school of hard knocks. And so healing is very, very important. But healing comes from a root, which means to become whole. And so it's meant to simply help us get our shit together enough to be coherent and whole enough to be able to then do the work we actually came to do. So healing is really the first step. And yes, we'll do some healing throughout life. And it is like layers of an onion and it continues to progress. But we shouldn't think that like, oh, it's all about healing as a goal in itself. It's

not. The healing is for becoming whole enough to do the work. Then the next level is the level of activation. That's where we actually activate our consciousness. We activate our heart forces. We activate our will forces and our energy body. And there's a whole series of different activations that are important to work with on the spiritual path. So activation is essential. It's one reason why psychotropics are becoming such a big topic today, because in a world that is highly materialistic and people are highly damped down by their environment, the psychotropics are one method used classically to be able to do certain activations. It's only one method, but it is one that's becoming increasingly popular. We should understand how it works. Now, that's not the end

either, because the problem is people can activate. Somebody can go off on some shamanic journey with somebody and do a bunch of ayahuasca or something else, and they can activate all kinds of things. It may be life-changing, it may be very important. The question is, can you hold on to the state and not slide back to an earlier state that wasn't as beneficial, or not integrate properly the experience so that it just becomes somewhat destabilizing to the person, rather than something that they can build on to become stronger and more complete and more coherent. And so that's why above the healing and above the activation, the next level is the stabilization level.

This was well understood in ancient traditions like the Taoist tradition in China, but today it's not well understood at all. So we see a lot of people who may have had massive activations with psychotropics or other things in modern times in their spiritual work, which I'm not putting down. It's absolutely very important, but they haven't been introduced really to the concept of stabilization, which is like, again, so very important because until we can stabilize that activation in our energy system, it can lead to destabilizing our life. And it may also lead to the experiences being unintegrated, both psychologically and energetically, to the point that you don't really take the Siddha or the power from it through the gate of death into the next incarnation. So it gets somewhat lost. So that's really when we integrate during that

stabilization phase. So it becomes a permanent part of us and we can take it with us through the gate of death and into all the later incarnations, which again is a core principle of so many classical traditions, including things like the ancient Egyptian that, you know, you have to take the developments you had in earthly life through the gate of death into the greater life beyond. Yeah, it's such an important piece that you bring up. I've had quite a few rounds in the plant medicine world. And it's right as you were speaking to that, you know, I remember there was a time where I'd go there, I'd get the medicine, I'd come back, wow, I'm different, you know, and three

months would go by and I'm like, man, I feel normal again. So I need to go back, you know, and I'd go back and I'd be like, oh man, I think I lost it again. So I need to go back, you know, and I'd go back and I'd be like, oh man, I think I lost it again. And, um, I don't know where, where it happened somewhere, you know, in the last, it's probably been 15 years. So somewhere in, in, you know, the last like five years of that, probably a better part of a decade of, of that type of, uh, relationship to it. And then it just, I just felt like relieved. There was no, uh, There was no draw to go back. It was like, oh, I can go back. But now I had integrated the ability to open up the line of communication.

I didn't need ayahuasca to answer my questions. I had direct comms open. And with that, it felt like there was a level of graduation in the integration aspect. I had these channels available to me at all times. And, but still a curiosity with that work and even more of a curiosity, you know, as we look, I have, there's a lot of people that are, that are excited about it. You know, they're really excited that this is available. They're excited that they have access to it. They hear the, the, you know, all the great results from people and,

and they don't integrate well, you know, they the great results from people and, um, and they don't integrate well, you know, they, they have the blast off experience and, and, uh, in many ways, I mean, shit in the last six months, I know three different people that are having a very hard time grounding themselves and, and, you know, collecting whatever their sense of reality and sense-making was before that experience. It's, it's relatively gone now And I don't believe it's gone for good, but that's a massive pitfall to talk about. You know, disclaimers all around. People are like, oh, it's not for everybody. You want, you know, best proper setting and all that shit.

And it's like, you can have those things and it still goes south. When you go to Sultara, it's one of my favorite places in the world to drink ayahuasca and they flush your peepo shaman and you have to sign on the waiver. I may not be better after this. I may be worse after this experience, right? It's a very real possibility. But that's why I'm so drawn. I mean, I've been drawn to Steiner. I felt like

when Paul introduced me to Steiner, I was like, holy shit, like there's so much here. There's literally so much, like where do I start? How do I begin to break this down? And in many different avenues, not from just the spiritual, but we do regenerative agriculture and permaculture. I'm like, wow, the founder of biodynamics, you know, there's just a whole, there's a wealth of knowledge. You know, I could study that for 30 years and still not fully grasp it. And then hearing about the Rosicrucians and different things like that, there's

a draw for me because of the way they had systematized things. They understood the path of initiation had many components to it. And these were held in the mystery schools, right? And so like there, I have a genuine draw. I mean, Christian Pitti, my buddy, the guy that I was listening to for six hours on these drives with you, um, with you on, on the, with you on the phone. It was like, I have a genuine draw for that because I think it's one of the missing components

in today's plant medicine movement and in any spiritual movement for that matter, right? We think of, you know, whether it's a darkness retreat or, you know, the original Native American vision quest, no food, no water for four days. I mean, hopefully in that set and setting, you're going to have a really good caretaker that has a wealth of knowledge with those experiences and can help you integrate and ground the experience. But it seems like the mystery schools knew exactly what to expect. It was almost like having a league of elders that

had gone through it all and kind of mapped that out for us. And I think that's one of the real draws I had in looking through your website was like, is that this is the thing I think it is. This is the exact thing I'm looking for. And I think it's the exact thing that's going to help quite a few people. Great. Thank you. I appreciate everything that you just shared. I couldn't agree more. So again, like you're talking about the people that are still working to try to integrate these psychotropic experiences, it's very significant. I also find that there's a difficulty today in the psychotropic world that often people will start with too high a dosage. And if you examine this from a subtle body perspective, too high a dosage can cause damage to these subtle energy

networks in the body. You're putting too much voltage through circuits or wires in the energy system that aren't rated for that level of charge. And so it's pretty much classic that you have to have like a day or two of recovery anyway after you do these things, because like your whole system gets totally activated and then you got to build back. But it's one of these things that, you know, often the dosage is too high. The way that I like to express it is that we should think of the use of psychotropics and these types of things as like learning how to surf. And so you don't want to go to Hawaii for your first surfing lesson and ride a hundred foot wave and get crushed by it. You want to be able to stay on top of the water and use the momentum of the wave to shoot you forward with great velocity while staying balanced. You know, you're riding the wave. And that's what I think

the psychotropic experience should be like. It's like riding a wave too much, and you're just going to get slammed by the wave, and you're going to be tumbling head over heels underwater, not knowing which way is up. And hopefully coming back to the top for oxygen in time. But it's a whole thing of understanding, how are we going to approach this? And I think now that we're at the point of legalization of all kinds of different psychotropics, which I think is fantastic because I'm a libertarian and think it's not the government's business to tell me what I can put in my body anyway. But nonetheless, with that happening, there needs to be a very mature discussion, Just like we need a very mature discussion today about esoteric and spiritual development, we need to have that with the use

of psychotropics because I think it can be absolutely life-changing for people. It can totally wake people up to dimensions that they never understood before. It's incredibly important. But like anything, you got to understand what's the pattern behind it. What's the way to work with it? One thing that I've been working with and I'm just starting to talk about publicly is if people are going to work with this, we have to understand that different psychotropic substances have very different effects on a person. And so the minimum system that I use to be able to understand it is the system that we have of the three elixir fields from Chinese medicine. The upper Dan Tian or elixir field is the consciousness in the head. Then the middle

elixir field or dantian is the heart and the center of the chest. And then the lower elixir field is the dynamic life force, life force in its largest sense, as well as sexual energy that's in the lower abdomen. And so I've started talking more about, and I'm going to be releasing more information in the near future, and also network with people who have even more involved models of different psychotropic activations about how certain substances will be used to activate the head, others to activate the center, and others to activate the lower dantian, and that these can be done at the same time. And so I think that's a very important concept, that when you mix them together in the correct way, that you can activate all three centers simultaneously,

and then the entire experience is not only more multifaceted, it's also much more grounded. Also, when people have difficulty integrating the experience, there are certain types of energetic practices that can be done. So like in my Gaia TV series on sacred geometry, I try to offer people some of the most fundamental ones, like the toroidal energy circulation from below to above and above to below and both at the same time. These are things that flow the energy in the system in an important way, just like the microcosmic orbit up the spine and down the front and many other things we haven't touched on here. So then with the other things that you were mentioning about being able to really provide context and information for all those different things coming out today, again, this is part of

what I really do hope the Vesica Institute will be able to offer to people, is the tremendous flood of fragmented information, being able to put that together in as clear, concise, and coherent a manner as possible, so people don't have to spend 30 or 40 years trying to get the basic information. At that point, they're old before they can do the work, but to get the information as soon as possible so that once they are empowered with understanding how the practices work, understanding the knowledge base, understanding the larger patterns they can navigate through for their own personal development, for their own full development of their own potential, as well as remembering who am I and why did I come here for this incarnation, that they can

do that as soon as possible. So one very important thing for me with the work that we do at Vesica is that it's all very non-dogmatic. It's like you don't have to do any particular thing. There's no organization for you to join. You are meant to be an independent person. And one thing I liked about the Rosicrucians is the Rosicrucian order in its original form, not necessarily the organizations that use the term Rosicrucian today, but the original form of Rosicrucianism was always independent. It was always about making your own direct contact with spirit, not having to go through another person. And so everything that I create at Vesica is meant for people to be empowered with the knowledge and the practices as quickly and easily as possible. And then they are going to apply it in different ways based on

their own consciousness and subtle body structure and what it is that they're going to apply it in different ways based on their own consciousness and subtle body structure and what it is that they're meant to work on in this particular lifetime. But these are like universal principles that everybody can pull on. But it's very important for me that we really follow this kind of independent path of spiritual initiation. Other people can help us at certain points, but we never become dependent upon a particular external organization or individual. It's all about strengthening our direct contact with spirit and our own understanding and navigation of the path that we're going to create based on that. I love that. Yeah, we've all recognized where in the past it was either a priest or, or, you know, a guru or now a plant medicine that has all the answers for us that

we need to go back to, to get clean and clear and confess and heal and all that stuff. So I very much appreciate the independence of, of, of what you're offering and that it is in that light, that it is for our own path to be walked as we can stand on our own two feet and have a direct connection with Source. You've talked in the past about how we work on ourselves, not only so that we can do better work in this lifetime, but that we can then carry the Siddha, the gift, into our following lifetimes and upcoming things that we do. It makes sense.

For people that have not really wrapped their heads around reincarnation or eternity, as I like to call it, because I think, you know, once you understand eternity, you can't help but understand reincarnation or viscerally understand it for that matter. I think of the, there is a clear thing, and I've had conversations with Paul Cech about this, like, how is a guy like Beethoven born with that kind of skill set? It's clear he's brought something with them from before that soul brought something with them from before. Even access I have yet to have, I don't discount it, but I have yet to have a memory of anything pre birth. I've had fantastic visions in altered states from fasting and from plant medicines, and a variety of different methods. But I have yet to have the memory of a past life or the

in-between stages. But I do feel like a core draw, you know, like when there's a soul resonance, it's like my whole body says yes. And when you speak about these things, you know, bringing the gift into the next life, I have a draw to that. And this work pertains to that, correct? Absolutely. There was a course that I developed called Karmic Biography that I haven't taught in 10 years now, maybe more, that I'm planning to start own life or my own research, and particularly from Steiner's work in Rosicrucianism, such as what I mentioned in his series of books called Karmic Relationships, I wanted to pull out all this key information and put it in a concise form so people can understand that even if they don't have a conscious recollection yet of specific past lifetimes. All you have to do is look at particular markers in your current consciousness, in your current lifetime, and you'll begin to

construct what those aspects are of things that you've experienced before that have created a structure in your subtle bodies that makes you who you are. So let's start with that concept. This is like really the million dollar concept that is not fully understood by a lot of people in metaphysics today, but was the foundation of much of the classical work is that every way that we use our mind and our consciousness, every way we use our emotions, every way that we use our will and physically act in the world, all of these things create an activation of certain things in our energy system, and they may sedate other things in the energy system based on the choices we make. So every thought, every feeling, every act of speech, every action we take is activating certain patterns in our energy body.

The patterns that we generate over time, as well as the things that we learn and we experience, then create a structure in the subtle body that's a literal geometric structure. What energy centers are more activated, what are more sedated, what chakras have a balanced development, which are more unbalanced in their chakras have a balanced development, which are more unbalanced in their structure, these types of things. But it does create literal geometric forms in the energy body. Now, this was understood classically as this is you. That's what you take through the gate of death. This structuring of your subtle bodies is literally everything that you are. It is the pearl of great price that we take with us

through the gate of death into the next incarnation. Now, certain structures have to be created in those bodies to be able to consciously remember things that happened to us in past incarnations. You know, I could ask somebody, what did you have for breakfast 30 years ago today? And they probably won't know. We don't even remember from this incarnation, this type of thing. So remembering from a past incarnation is even more difficult. And again, there's always, you know, tricks and traps on the path for people having false memories of past incarnations, usually based on fantasy or ego gratification or things like that. I take it much more seriously when people tell me that they remember being a servant woman in the 1200s in France who was beaten and

abused by her employer than I do somebody saying that they were one of the disciples of Christ or something. Now, it's possible they were a disciple of Christ, but that's also something that could really be an ego gratification and a fantasy. And what you'll find is that people that really had famous incarnations, they don't remember it as like, look at me, I'm amazing. They remember it as that lifetime was hard as hell, and it was painful and difficult. That's the type of thing that they feel internally. It's not that external view of

it in some glamorous form. Those lifetimes were not easy, even though we think of them today as something really elevated. So there's an aspect here of being able to, if we can't consciously remember yet, because we don't have that structure in our subtle bodies, that there are certain guideposts that we can look at that, again, I put into this karmic biography series I hope to bring back soon in teaching that really go into who we are, why we're here. So I'll give you a couple of examples to make it concrete. So one of these is what are things that you are innately attracted to and that just makes sense to you at a deeper level than other people around you?

So it could be when we're growing up or even when we're adults and we're talking to friends about something. To us, this is like the most important, fascinating thing in the world. It's like, good God, this is like, how could we possibly not focus our lives on this particular topic, whatever it is?

And we see the significance of it. We see the deeper aspects of it innately. And the person we're talking to is like, it means nothing to them. It bounces off of them. And so we start to see those things that we innately know and understand. We innately know and understand it because we did it before. We've got that structure in our subtle bodies. So it's like dehydrated, just add water in the new lifetime. And like, yes, that power is back. And this then develops into the things that we have antipathy for and that we don't like, or we don't want to deal with, or we have some bias against. And unless that's something that was ingrained into us and an indoctrination in our youth, when it's other things that we had no

contact with before, it's like, why do I have such an antipathy toward that thing? Again, that's often linked to past life trauma or something of that kind. So this very simple things of looking at what we're attracted to, what we innately understand, what we're repelled by, will start the process. And what you'll find is that the things that people are karmically connected to, they will automatically seek out. Even though they don't remember the past incarnation related to it, it's so deep in our structure. We have a magnetic attraction to that thing. And sometimes when we connect to whatever that topic is, that thing is, in a way that's not at the level that we held it before, we'll contact it at some lower level. And it could be anything. It could be our type of sexual relationships. It could be certain aspects of our personal development, whatever it could be. But if we contact it at a lower level in this new lifetime, because we don't have a conscious recollection of it, there's something

in us that says, no, this isn't it. This is not the full understanding of what this is and can be. This is not the potential this thing has. I understand it at a deeper level. And this is something that people have as a weird type of cognitive dissonance often and emotional dissonance in their lifetimes. It's like, I don't know why, but I know that this relationship with this person is not it. I know something deeper because we experienced it at a deeper level with somebody else at another time. And some part of us feels that lack. And it's also true when we connect to like particular spiritual teachers, spiritual traditions, after we're in it for a bit, it's like, no, this isn't it.

There's something else I'm looking for. And, or maybe this is it at a lower level, but I knew it at another level. I need to go to that next level. So what happens is that we are connected to spiritual beings all the time. In the Western tradition, we talk about the guardian angel, which is not an abstraction. It's an actual spiritual being of the angelic hierarchy that's connected to all of us and other beings that we are connected to. That these beings, when they try to communicate to us, if we have not developed our energy system, particularly the centers in the head and those in the column above the head properly, they can't directly communicate to us what they're trying to get us to do. It's like, yeah, for this incarnation, it's really important that you go to this place and you do

this thing. Or it's really important that you work with this person. Or it's really important that you focus on and you study this particular field because you'll never do what you're meant to do without it. They're trying to communicate that to us, but they can't give it to us too directly. Maybe they give it to us in a fragment in a dream or something when maybe we've got some receptivity to it, but for the average person, they can't just give it out forthright. The person doesn't have the ears to hear it. They haven't developed the structure to receive it in the field yet. So what happens is that that impulse coming from these other beings that are trying to get us onto our path, has to go down from the conscious level down to the lower levels of the chest center and the lower abdominal center.

And then it comes forward as an emotional impulse in the middle dantien, or it comes forth as a will impulse in the lower abdomen. And so it's not as fully conscious as if we got it in the head, but there's still something emotionally or in our will forces pulling us toward doing that thing. Would you say that could come forward as an intuition? Like, I don't know, I can't wrap my head around why, but I know I'm going to do this. Would that be considered will, or does intuition work in that? Yes. So the intuition in this sense, there's a fantastic thing that the Rosicrucians put together about imagination, inspiration, and intuition. Imagination, with a capital I, is the ability to receive spiritual information in the form of visual images. Inspiration is the ability to receive spiritual information in the form of tones or sounds.

And intuition is receiving spiritual information through a direct visceral kinesthetic union with whatever it is that we're connecting to. And so, yes, in that sense, with intuition, it actually is connecting to the lower dantien, our will forces and the life force centers lower in the body. And again, we're not fully conscious of it, but we're being drawn toward it. So there'd be times that I'd be living in certain cities and other people were moving there. And I'd say, why did you move to this place? And time and again, I would hear from people, I don't know why I came here. I just knew I had to come. And this is something that this is a marker for, this is something karmically important. It may be coming out of your own forces. It may be coming from higher beings that are connected to us. But if we can't receive it consciously, we're going

to get it as an emotional impulse, like I really want to be with this person. I really want to connect with this person for whatever reason, or as a will impulse. I need to go there. I need to do this thing. Now, taking that one step further, as we become conscious of this, we then can become conscious that we sometimes need to do particular activities in the current incarnation that we did in previous incarnations and were very important to us. They gave us certain sitas. They gave us certain powers. They structured us in an important way. So, for example, for myself, when I joined the Marine Corps when I was 20, I only stayed for three years till I was 23.

I was an instructor in the nuclear, biological, chemical warfare, defense aspect of things in the Marine Corps. But the people that knew me, they knew me as pretty much like a hippie type in high school. And it was like, you're joining the Marine Corps? You're the least likely Marine we've ever seen. This must be a joke. You're not going to join the Marine Corps. But I knew that I had to do it on some level. At that point, it was just my will forces. Didn't make any sense to anybody, but I'm going to go join the Marine

Corps, although I'm a very different type of person from external perception. But then later, afterwards, when I had more of my awakening experience and I remembered, I remember the reason it was in my will forces to do it is I'd had so many military and monastic lifetimes, which are very similar. If you look at that type of lifestyle, military and monastic are very similar lifestyles. And I'd had so many of those that gave me a lot of the abilities or cities that I have. And I needed to recapitulate that experience, to go through it again consciously in this lifetime, to be able to fully access those powers that I developed before. But I didn't need to spend my whole lifetime doing it the way I had

in some previous lifetimes. I just needed to do a few years of it. And that allowed me to regain the discipline and the drive and the focus and the dedication and those types of things that were related to that type of activity. So I just give that as a concrete example of how these types of things work. But it's very important that people know how to look into their own lifetime. Again, if they have no remembrance of past lifetimes, everything about who you're attracted to, what you're attracted to, what makes sense to you, and what is invisible to you in your life is a clear marker of how you've structured your subtle bodies and who you are. And even if you

don't consciously remember what you chose to do in this lifetime, some part of you is already attracted to it. And bringing these internal feelings, these impulses into a conscious meditative state, in a clear mind state, like I describe in the Essential Teachings and Practices course, you're going to be able to, over time, have that go from like a seed. It's going to blossom into the whole flower and you're going to start remembering, okay, that's the thing. That's who I am. That's why I'm here. That's what I need to do at this moment in my lifetime, either for myself or as an act of service of what I can provide to other people. I love it. It's something you had mentioned that really struck a chord for me and reminded me of your conversation with Aubrey and Paul. And since, you know, your conversation with Paul, he had a five-hour expose on the teachings of Lucifer, Aramon, and Christ. You know, with

the delusions of grandeur, whether it comes from a past life experience, I was Helen of Troy or, you know, name someone, you know, and then I was or a plant medicine jury. You know, like I, you know, people come back and they say the second coming of Christ or whatever the thing is. That obviously is luciferic. And I would love to know, you know, how, if you could briefly break these down for people who didn't spend the five hours, you know, listening to it on Paul's podcast, because I think they are core teachings for our time as Steiner proposed.

And, you know, how we're able to navigate with discernment, whether, you know, the messages that we're intuiting are getting from a side or from up high or down low or actually in right relation with who our true teachers are. Yes, thank you. I do believe that this understanding of what in terms of spiritual beings is referred to as Lucifer, Aram, and Christ, which was the most clearly expressed in modern times by Rudolf Steiner.

But we need to see what the larger pattern is behind that. And so the larger pattern behind this is the one that we have of the Vesica, which is why I have the Vesica Institute. So you have two circles that overlap. Today we call that a Venn diagram, where the two overlapping circles, they have something in common, like two people's lives have something in common. In this Vesica, in the Venn diagram, where the two circles overlap. Now, when you look at this pattern, then there's the half of each circle out to each side. That's its own polarity, its own extreme. And then there's the overlap of the two in the perfect balance point, a perfect equilibrium where two different polarities join together to connect to a center.

And so this manifests as a principle in virtually everything in life. Our energy system has this. There's aspects of polarity in our energy body, the front and the back of the body, with the two aspects of the microcosmic orbit I talked about before, but in the exact center of the body is a completely different circuit from the perineum to the crown. That's a central channel, not the spinal channel, but a central channel that in some traditions they don't even talk about. They consider it to be a secret teaching.

There's always the center and the center going off balance to either extreme. And that manifests in every aspect of life and it becomes a pattern of everything. So when we see this in terms of spiritual beings that we're influenced by, the beings of the center, the beings of what the Tibetans would call the middle path, or in the Kabbalah, we'd call the middle pillar. That's the perfect balance point. That's where the yang and the yin are in perfect balance and combination and are connected to the one, the center. And so that in the Western tradition, in the archangelic level, is related to Archangel Mikael.

And so there's all three monotheistic traditions. So Judaism, Islam, Christianity. Archangel Mikael is one of the spiritual beings talked about the most. And so this is referred to as a Mikaelic pillar. And in Christianity, it's referred to as a Michaelic pillar, and in Christianity, it's referred to as a Christic pillar. So the Christ is the being shown inside the vesica in things like the medieval cathedrals. Again, the cathedrals built by the original operative masons, like I talked about on Aubrey's show, these people made the cathedrals into books written in stone, when they show the Christ in a vesica over the

entrance to the cathedral, to the power spot, this is all completely intentional. They're telling you something, showing Christ in the side of the vesica. So in Christianity, the Christ is shown there. They might show another being that holds the principle of perfect balance in another tradition in the vesica. And so that's what we connect to when we have the perfect balance between heaven and earth, between spirituality and physicality, between masculine and feminine. These are the things that bring the polarities together into the perfect balance. But in our spiritual development, we can, to have any freedom, and people think of this as like some terrible thing we've been afflicted with. No, this is a gift. This is something that a lot of spiritual beings

had to work hard for eons of time to create the whole system that we live in. You know, it can be painful and we can make the wrong choice and we can suffer because of it, but to have any freedom, it has to be like this. So we have the freedom that we can get off the center going to one polarity or off center going to the opposite polarity. If we go to the polarity of unbalanced spirit, where we're ignoring physical realities and the importance of the physical plane, physical body, etc. That's what was referred to in the Western tradition as the Luciferic polarity, because Lucifer simply means light bearer. So this is tremendous spiritual light, but it's a light that is so

bright that it blinds and it leads to illusion. So that's where people go off the central pillar, the Christic Michaelic, of proper spiritual development, and they veer off into illusory, narcissistic types of ego-gratifying spirituality that is not real and will not take them to the goal. So that's the Luciferic aspect. Then the other aspect of it is what was known as the polarity related to a being known as Araman in the ancient Zoroastrian tradition of Persia. It then became known as Set in the Egyptian tradition, which then became, when the Hebrews left Egypt, became Ha-Set-An, or Satan in later language. Ha-Set-An means the adversary. This particular being is the one of the exact opposite. It's complete materiality.

It says spirit doesn't even exist, that you ignore everything having to do with integrity and honor and spirituality and any higher thing at all to only focus on power, money, manipulation of others, taking things from others in the physical world, completely physically based. This is all a simplification, but it's the general idea. So that's the core idea when we deal with the connection to the core balanced oneness line of development through both physical and spiritual evolution, which are tied together. Or if we go off to just the spiritual side, we decide we don't want to incarnate anymore because it's too painful. Or we, in an illusory way, think that we're so developed we don't need to incarnate anymore, which is true for some people, but very rarely for the people that you

hear say it because that's a very advanced state. But if you can't, you really think you can't learn anything else in physical incarnation? Do you have absolutely no emotional reaction anymore to any suffering you have on the planet. I don't find people talking about this actually being at that stage. It's really an emotional reaction thing. It's narcissism plus avoidance. So that's the Luciferic side. And then you have the Aramonic side where you just become completely materially obsessed. But again, that's the larger principle expressed in terms of the beings that we connect with on the spiritual path.

So we have to be very, very clear because the terrible mistake that was made, because people don't understand the pattern, they don't understand the sacred geometry behind things, is that everything's just a pure polarity. So here's good and here's bad. It never works like that. Good, so to speak, is always in the center. It's always the middle path. It's works like that. Good, so to speak, is always in the center. It's always the middle path. It's the perfect balance. You don't want to be too hot or too cold. Neither one of those is

good. Either one can kill you. You always need to have the perfect balance in the center. And so good is what's in the center and bad or evil or whatever people want to call it, that's getting off the center to get stuck into an extreme of one polarity or the other. That's always going to lead to some type of destruction. You always have to balance those polarities in the center. But we also have the problem that we don't want to get into any type of weird sensationalism or emotional reaction to it. These beings exist, but any educated person on the spiritual path has to understand like, yeah, we are like fish in a fishbowl. We live in water and the water is the spiritual world.

And we have spiritual beings and the spiritual world around us all the time, but we don't have the eyes to perceive them. But it shouldn't freak us out any more than if we're told we have a billion microorganisms on our skin right now. That shouldn't make us want to go and douse ourselves with some cleansing agent to kill all these microorganisms. We couldn't survive without them. So it's just part of being more mature and understanding better on the path that these beings have to exist, and they actually are here for a beneficial purpose in the long run, even though if we make the wrong choices and don't interact with them properly, they can cause us pain and

have negative effects on our spiritual evolution. I love the breakdown. I really appreciate it. And I know we're after the hour mark here. We've got another 20 minutes. I do want to dive in. You have such a wealth of knowledge on biogeometry and Paul's hooked me up with Dr. Ibrahim and Doria. And as soon as Dr. Ibrahim finishes his next book, I'll have him on this podcast, but you've been arguably one of their best students. You can communicate it very well. Obviously Doria can speak English perfectly well, but you have an understanding, a deep wealth of knowledge on this. And I think in the time of 5G and all, you know, 200,000 satellites that are about to go up into the air, there couldn't be a more important time to understand some of the basics mechanics of biogeometry, how it works and the implementation of that.

And, you know, on your website, you've got a number of different tools that you use. And that's a part of this big star where you can really deep dive that. But I'd love for you to talk about, you know, getting in with Dr. Ibrahim and what you've discovered, you know, with biogeometry, because it's not something that I've brought up a ton on this podcast. And I think it is something that everybody should know about. Great. Thank you so much. I was very fortunate in the late nineties. I had someone mentioned to me about Dr. Karim was coming to the U.S. to teach for the first time. And I hadn't heard anything about him. He was only really known in Egypt, and he'd done some classes in Holland.

But this person said that this man, Dr. Ibrahim Karim, is an architect. He's rediscovered many of the secrets of the ancient Egyptian temple science. He can apply it practically in a new design science called biogeometry, which is really the lost practical application side of sacred geometry. We could say, in terms of the way people think about sacred geometry in the West today, study of all these patterns. A lot of what people talk about sacred geometry today is somewhat philosophical or abstract or intellectual. Biogeometry is a practical energy science that anyone can learn to directly apply. And we teach it to people to begin with in terms of design that can be applied to the home or office to change the vibrational energy characteristics to be the

most life-supporting, the most health-supporting, the most consciousness-supporting. It's not an abstraction. It's not just based on your emotional feeling about something or your likes or dislikes in design. It's based on the actual energetic vibrations that come from shape, sound, color, motion, angle, proportion. It really is a science, as was cultivated in the ancient Egyptian temple science, most of all of which had been lost, that Dr. Karim rediscovered through his own research. Again, as an architect, he had to know how do I create energies within the structures that I'm creating for people to live in, to work in, that are going to be the most beneficial to them. And because of that,

he developed an aspect of understanding that I can't just, lots of times when people have energy tools and they say, oh, feel this energy tool I created, feel how strong the energy is. Well, it may feel strong, but its energy may be very one-sided. It may be extremely yang or extremely yin. And so it's not necessarily balanced. It may be beneficial for a short period of time for a certain thing, but people don't always understand it in that level of clarity. And they say, oh, this would be great for everything. Well, no, if you use that particular tool all the time, you would really burn out your energy system because it's too young and it's too stimulating and your system has to have the yin cycle to recover from it. So what Dr. Karim realized is he couldn't just apply the energies for practical work in literally creating physical objects and buildings, rooms, et cetera, in the world, he couldn't use highly polarized energies

because it may be beneficial for one person, but not beneficial for another. And so the core of his system in biogeometry, an amazing rediscovery of really lost knowledge from the ancient Egyptian temple science that connects to all kinds of other lost energetic sciences from the ancient world as well, but now brought into a modern context where we can use it alongside modern technology and do what Dr. Karim calls humanize modern technology, because much of modern technology creates energetic effects that are actually detrimental to human consciousness and energy and health, is we can use this particular system to create an energy concentration of literally the energy of the center. And so today, lots of times in healing work, people talk about energy balancing.

I'm going to go to this person and we're going to do some energy balancing. Well, this could be applied to biogeometry, but what it really is in biogeometry is we're not applying an opposite polarity to another polarity. Like if you're too cold, you need to warm up. Or if somebody has got an overactive heart, you need to be in medicine today, they're going to give you a pharmaceutical of a specific dosage to be able to sedate the heart enough so it's no longer overactive. But to give a person too much of it, too high a dosage, then it's going to be able to sedate the heart enough so it's no longer overactive, but to give a person too much

of it, too high a dosage, then it's going to be overly sedated and it could be just as health threatening. So when people say energy balancing, lots of times they mean I'm applying the opposite polarity to what's already present to try to bring it back to center. Dr. Karim discovered the core method of being able to activate the center itself. Now, when I discovered this, when I went to one of his first trainings in North America, when he first came here around the year 2000, is this immediately reminded me of what I knew from the spiritual science work that we had discussed before. And like in Steiner's work where he's activating the center first, it's the Rosicrucian method, activate the heart chakra first to become the organizing center for everything else.

And I said, Dr. Karim understands the core principle. He's rediscovered that core temple science principle, and he's managed to figure out how to apply it today in a huge range of practical ways. So I was blown away by Dr. Karim when I met him. Also, he's incredibly intelligent. He's super funny. He's incredibly down to earth, very grounded, very nice guy. If people come up to him and go and like idolize him and say like, Dr. Karim, you're so amazing. He just like kiboshes that immediately. And he says, just call me Ibrahim. Let's just be friends. And he's like, so down to earth, he's just the nicest guy ever. So I was so impressed with him and the work that he does that I went to every training that he did

in North America from that point forward. And I was very fortunate that he was the one that saw me that I literally transcribed every word he said. And then I would compile that into my own notes to understand exactly what his system was. And that led to him inviting me to be the first person outside of Egypt that he authorized to be an instructor in biogeometry. So I've been an instructor in biogeometry since I worked with him on a project in London in 2003. And that's just been a most fantastic journey. So the way things have developed now, I'm able to teach biogeometry in online courses. We have the online biogeometry foundation training. And the next one we're going to have is going to be in February.

And it's going to be on my website, vesica.org. And then after that, there's another level that's called the advanced training. So in these trainings, you learn how to use a specific type of vibrational tools to detect and differentiate all the different energy qualities that make up things in our world. It's really opening a person's organs of perception to perceive all the subtle vibrations that make up everything in the world and how they affect us. Also, there are tools and methods to be able to create concentrations of this centering energy quality. It literally centers and balances all living energy systems. It's its own specific vibrational quality that most traditions have no concept even exists. And if they do know it, they only know it through some

of the peripheral techniques to create it. So things like blessing and prayer. When a person is in deep, sincere blessing and prayer, their energy field will start emanating this exact centering energy quality. But you can create that centering energy quality through design work, through specific sounds, specific shapes, and geometric forms. As I said before, particular angles, particular proportions, particular movements can create concentrations of this energy. And it's the universal donor. You can never overdose on this energy of the oneness, of the perfect centered balance point. No one ever died from being too centered. But if you apply the energies of polarity, you can get too hot or you can get too cold or too active or too sedated,

and that could kill you. So in biogeometry, we teach people how to directly access, not as an intellectual concept, but as something very tangible, this energy of the center, and then be able to apply it to transform the energy in their home and office. But the knowledge they learn could also be applied to virtually any body of work, any design you make in graphic design, any type of tool that you're creating. Dr. Karim has often said to people, there is not a field of human endeavor that you cannot apply biogeometry to. Biogeometry applies to everything. It is the core science of the energies that create every function in the world. And so it's got all these different offshoots. And the foundation training, we teach people about, for example, biosignatures. Once Dr. Karim was able to detect

the different energy qualities and using specific types of radiesthesia tools to trace them out, he was able to trace out the movements of life energy in the organs and glands and systems of the human body that no one had ever identified before. What are the specific movements of energy into specific patterns and parts of the human body that create the different functions of the heart, the different functions of the liver, the different functions of the brain? This is completely new work. He's

discovered hundreds and hundreds of these patterns through painstaking research. And then he simplified their three-dimensional energy movement pattern that exists in the body into a simplified two-dimensional diagram that we can use for energy balancing purposes for human beings. higher level mammals, they seem to work just as well there. So there's all these different systems inside biogeometry, and there's a lot more information about it on the vesca.org website. And also I've got some videos and Dr. Karim has videos on biogeometry that you can watch for free on YouTube. And also for people that know my Gaia TV series on sacred geometry, spiritual science is the name. There is one episode that I dedicated to Dr. Kareem that gives you a whole overview of the foundation of biogeometry. Also, we're working with Dr. Kareem right now that he just published a major book called Hidden Reality that he worked on for years. And he's coming to the U.S. in March of 2024 to give a talk at the Gaia Conference in Boulder, Colorado. And we're in talk to them right now to bring him to Las Vegas to do his first public workshop in many, many, many years, which is only going to be for

people that have completed the Biogeometry Foundation and advanced courses by March of next year. And so that would be a very unique opportunity to directly meet and work with Dr. Karim. So there's a lot happening in biogeometry right now. It's growing very quickly as people see all the things that can be applied for. And again, we're hoping that Dr. Karim is going to be here in person next year and give a rare presentation of his latest research discoveries and tools. That's so cool. Yeah, I was blown away by the original science on how it affected agriculture. We have a regenerative farm and I was just like, holy shit, this literally is affecting all things, you know, that we can see and feel and touch.

So I've been impressed with that. I've had a number of friends go through the training and, you know, Paul's wife, Angie, was able to do some signatures on me at different points in ceremony that completely shifted my energy field. It is absolutely the real deal. And it's really cool that he's going to be stateside and that he continues to offer such great work.

Well, I will link to everything that you've mentioned in the show notes so people can one-click it. I highly recommend people watch your show on Gaia TV. Where can people find you and continue to work with you? And I guess I'll say this, you know, we know we have the websites and all that. If somebody was a seeker and adept, speaking for myself here or anyone like me, an adept in the plant medicines, but was looking for further instruction on a great place to start and really gravitating around integration tools and tools of understanding the things that we've spoken about here, where would they start? Well, I do recommend, again, people go to my website, vesica.org. I have a whole series of different online courses. If you want to get started on the biogeometry work, then you'll find the information about the upcoming biogeometry courses. We actually have one coming up in just a

few weeks, but that's been sold out for some time. The next one is going to be posted soon, and that's going to be in February for both foundation and advanced courses. Then for people interested in the spiritual science work that we talked about before, I recommend starting with the Essential Teachings and Practices of Spiritual Science online course. And then I also have other courses in vibrational science. I have particular courses that are on the vibrational science of applying stones and minerals that goes way deeper than what you'll normally find. People talking about use of stones today really goes back to the classical knowledge of stones as a literal crystallization of divine vibrations and how they can be applied

into the human energy system. And I talk about other methods of being able to detecting energy, such as the French method of radiesthesia. I have a whole series called vibrational testing and healing that may be of interest for some people. And it provides information on a lot of the European work of the last century that then was a foundation for Dr. Karim creating biogeometry, but it has a different content than the biogeometry courses. So those are some good places to start. Also, I'm going to be posting soon about some, I haven't done public presentations for years now, since the beginning of COVID, and I'm about to start up again. And so I'm going to be posting information. I'm going to be speaking at a member's psychotropic club in Santa Barbara on January 31st.

It's called District 216. I'll be posting information on that. I do plan to go to the Remind Psychedelic Business Conference in Las Vegas. That's toward the end of November and network with people there. I will be offering live courses again, probably in Las Vegas, starting next year, in addition to hopefully sponsoring Dr. Kareem here. And we have quite a lot that we're gearing up. So I haven't posted new YouTube videos for some time, but I'm now just about to start creating a whole series of new information on YouTube

and on a subscription channel that I hope will be created within the next year. So that's the overview of what we're up to at the moment. Oh, that's fantastic. Well, I can't wait to deep dive more of this and continue the conversation with you down the road when I've tackled some of the deeper concepts that you're alluding to. I really appreciate your time and the work that you do, and it's been excellent chatting with you. Great. Thank you so much.

Thanks for having me. Absolutely. Thank you.