Kyle Kingsbury Podcast - #341 Discerning Between Light and Dark in an Upside Down World w/ Mark Gober

Episode Date: February 12, 2024

Mark Gober has churned out another couple epic tomes turning the way you may view the world… “upside down”. He has all the pedigree of education and accolades as an author, but way beyond that, he is tapped into some truth and he’s not afraid to tell the world about it. Today, we get into his most recent books, "An End To Upside Down Medicine" and "An End To Upside Down Contact".  One thing I really enjoyed is his wholistic view of all of these topics. He can and does weave his way through all of these topics seamlessly. Please enjoy and share y’all! Connect with Mark: Website: MarkGober.com - BOOKS  Instagram: @markgober_author    Show Notes: "An End To Upside Down Medicine"  "An End To Upside Down Contact"  DissolvingIllusions.com - Charts  "Vax-UnVax: Let The Science Speak" -Robert F Kennedy JR, Brian Hooker PhD  KKP #329 Controligarchs, Past, Present and Future w/ Seamus Bruner Apple Spotify   "Controligarchs" -Seamus Bruner  "Case Unknown" -Ed Dowd   Sponsors: Cured Nutrition has a wide variety of stellar, naturally sourced, products. They’re chock full of adaptogens and cannabinoids to optimize your meatsuit. You can get 20% off by heading over to www.curednutrition.com/KKP  using code “KKP” Paleovalley Some of the best and highest quality goodies I personally get into are available at paleovalley.com, punch in code “KYLE” at checkout and get 15% off everything! Lucy Go to lucy.co and use codeword “KKP” at Checkout to get 20% off the best nicotine gum in the game, or check out their lozenge. Organifi Go to organifi.com/kkp to get my favorite way to easily get the most potent blend of high vibration fruits, veggies and other goodies into your diet! Click that link and use code “KKP” at checkout for 20% off your order! FREE PRODUCTS!!! Head over to Organifi and check out their free stuff for the month of February! To Work With Kyle Kingsbury Podcast   Connect with Kyle: Twitter: @KINGSBU  Fit For Service Academy App: Fit For Service App  Instagram: @livingwiththekingsburys - @gardenersofeden.earth  Odysee: odysee.com/@KyleKingsburypod  Youtube: Kyle Kingbury Podcast  Kyles website: www.kingsbu.com - Gardeners of Eden site    Like and subscribe to the podcast anywhere you can find podcasts. Leave a 5-star review and let me know what resonates or doesn’t.

Welcome back to the show, everybody. Today's guest is the return that I've been patiently waiting, the return of Mark Gober. Mark has seemingly overnight become one of my favorite authors, period, but especially in the last few years. I think his first one was The End of Upside-Down Living or The End of Upside-Down Thinking. Those two followed each other.

And then when I first got introduced to him, it was the homie Dr. Nathan Riley, the holistic OBGYN, has been on this podcast a number of times. He said, have you read The End of Upside-Down Liberty? And I said, no. And he goes, you got to get it right now. So I got it that day. I finished it that week. And to this day, one of the most important books of our time, one of the best written books that I've ever seen, and maybe the only that covers politics and spirituality and shows where they merge and where they don't. That was one of my all-time favorite books, period.

I had a brilliant podcast with him about that. And he just continued churning out goodies. We had him on the podcast right after the End to Upside Down reset, on The Great Reset, and the one that I missed him on, though, which I'm going to try to get to today, is the End to Upside Down, well, his newest, the End to Upside Down Medicine,

which I'm holding in my hand, and the End to Upside Down Contact. So I want to dive a little bit into Contact, even though it's a little bit older. I have listened to that book now since our last podcast, and it's fucking incredible. It is just as good as any of his books. I've rabbit holed every one of his books now. And last but not least is his latest and ended upside down medicine, contagion viruses and vaccines and why consciousness is needed for a new paradigm of health. This is an absolute fantastic book that dives deep into the science and it looks way deep

into medicine. It goes back in time to actually review quite a bit of things here and really break down germ theory versus terrain theory in a beautiful way. So stoked for this. Absolutely stoked to have Mark on. He can come on this podcast any damn time he pleases, whether he's got a new book or not. He continues to be a wealth of knowledge. His writing style is incredible. All of his books are on Audible. So if you're like me, you can fly through them there. I also, anytime I get a good book, I want it to go in my library, even if I don't read it. So hence the hard copy I have right here.

Anywho, Mark is fantastic. Ivy League background, all the things. We've talked about that in previous podcasts, so I won't bore you with any more of his background. He's incredible. Share this podcast far and wide. Share it with friends. Share it with, this is a book that's going to stir up some controversy. There's no two ways about it. Even in the post-COVID wake of 2024, I can assure you this conversation is not dead. I can assure you this conversation

is going to come back up. How do I know that? Because people like Bill Gates are guaranteeing another pandemic and they predict 2025 will be the year. Now, this isn't me doomsdaying a damn thing. The last one didn't do shit. It really didn't. And yes, people died, but it was hardly a pandemic. 98% plus survivability. So what's the next one to be like? I'm not sure. But until we get a grasp on reality and actually what's being spread

and how it's being spread and what's contributing to our health or our disease, we're gonna be spinning in the same circles over and over again. And it's my hope that even though we all want COVID to be behind us, and even though we all want to move on, that people don't forget what happened in 2020. And we really start to take a look at what is the truth? Where's the truth? And it may not be in this book, not a hundred percent of it, but there is going to be truth in this podcast and in his book. And we got to start

claiming those pieces of truth and stitching them together to form a new reality. Because this 2020 shit, that was bizarro world. That was the upside down world. That was Citra Acra. That was Wetiko. That was all the fucking nasty things you don't want to experience in the world for a thousand different reasons, which I've covered for the last four and a half years. So anywho, share it far and wide. Leave us a five-star rating with one or two ways the show's helped you out in life. Hit me up on Instagram at livingwiththekingsburys. Do not DM me. I have too many DMs to look at.

Just write on one of our posts or respond and say, yo, love the podcast with Mark. More like that, please. Or hey, you know, podcast with so-and-so was great. More like that. Just let me know what you guys are into and I'll keep finding guests in that realm. I've got some great guests coming up. So I'm super stoked to be able to roll these out.

Last but not least, support our show sponsors. They make this show possible. Without them, I wouldn't have the energy or the time to be able to do what I do. These guys make it possible for me to take the time necessary to read, to research, to go out on a limb, to reach out to people like Dr. Leonard Sachs, who I'm super stoked to have on this podcast. Haven't heard back from him yet, but I'm just putting it in the ether. Dr. Leonard Sachs is coming on this

podcast. He's going on Paul Chex and he's going on Dr. Nathan Riley's. I just called it right there first. He doesn't even know it yet. Anyhow, support these sponsors. They make it possible for the show to continue and they're amazing sponsors that have hand-selected. Today's first sponsor is curednutrition.com slash KKP. Visit curednutrition.com slash KKP and use the coupon code KKP at checkout. That's C-U-R-E-D nutrition.com slash KKP. Coupon code KKP to embrace a state of relaxation and balance.

For many months, I've talked to you guys about their Zen product and their CBN, which is the one-two combo for sleep that I find to be amazing, especially from an adaptogenic standpoint and a cannabinoid standpoint. And they have something on the other end of that spectrum for when you get up, it's called Rise. When it comes to my fitness and wellness, my mental game is just as important as my physical one. That's why I want to introduce to you something that has been a game changer for me. Rise by Cured Nutrition. As someone dedicated to optimizing my mind and body, I know how important it is to have sustained clarity, focus, and energy. Cured Nutrition gets it too. Rise is their expertly formulated nootropic blend

that combines the power of lion's mane and cordyceps mushrooms, rhodiola, ginseng, and broad-spectrum CBD. Imagine hitting your workouts or daily tasks with razor-sharp focus and a boost of energy that doesn't mess with your sleep cycle. That's right, no caffeine crash, just clear-headed, steady energy throughout the day. Personally, I started using Rise as a way to cut down on caffeine, and it has worked amazingly. Not only did I eliminate my need for the midday cup of coffee,

but I also ramped up my mental cognition like never before. In a world full of distractions, Rise keeps me locked in on my goals every single day. Cured Nutrition is offering an exclusive 20% off discount just for my listeners when you purchase Rise. Head over to www.curednutrition.com slash KKP and use the coupon code KKP at checkout. That's C-U-R-E-D nutrition.com slash KKP coupon code KKP to grab this amazing offer. Elevate your mental game with

Rise. Your brain will be firing on all cylinders and your to-do list won't know what hit it. Remember when it comes to our wellbeing, our mind is our strongest muscle. Train it with Rise. We're also brought to you today by paleovalley.com. One of our longest running show sponsors. These guys are incredible. Enter discount code Kyle, that's K-Y-L-E for 15% off everything in the store. Paleovalley.com, discount code Kyle for 15% off everything. These guys continue to amaze me. I've spoken about their beef sticks and their pasture-raised pork sticks, which are a game changer. The maple bacon pork is a real deal.

As some of the healthiest snacks on the planet, snacks that I happily give to my kids when we're in a pinch, if we're out at the farm and we pack a lunch and it's three o'clock and it's like, well, we can't have dinner yet, but we also don't want to eat chips and nasty shit, I'll bust out these sticks and know that my kids are healthy. They've also added a whole ton to their suite from the cooking side of things, including organic coffee. And these guys have a polyphenol dense organic coffee in decaf and in regular ground. Phenomenal stuff. They're also selling now extra virgin olive oil, organic olive oil pressed within hours of harvest and bursting with polyphenols. This is exactly how you want it. If you're going to do olive oil, small bottles, go through them quickly, don't cook with it, and it's a superfood. Now, something to cook with,

and I've been waiting for this one as well, is the grass-fed beef tallow. Say goodbye to inflammatory oils with nutrient-dense, heat-stable alternative. This stuff is awesome. It's creamy, it's light. It doesn't have much of a flavor to your food and it works like a charm. We've been cooking with this pretty much nonstop since we got it. Paleo Valley is 100% grass-fed beef tallow sourced from grass-fed and finished cattle raised on regenerative pastures free from chemicals. This tallow is more than just a cooking oil. It is a nutrient powerhouse. And with tallows, high smoke point and resistance to oxidation, it makes it an excellent high heat cooking oil. This is the truth. It's actually better than butter when it comes to cooking oil.

This should be in everyone's pantry. If you're going to fry stuff, you want this. Even if you're going to grill stuff and you want to add fat to it, the high heat point in the flame is going to oxidize quite a few things. So it's much better to throw some tallow on there to keep juices locked inside, baby. And you're going to have a healthier food that tastes better, that makes you and your family feel better with every single bite. Tallow is made from beef fat and has been a staple in traditional cooking for centuries. Recently has gained popularity among health conscious individuals, thanks to its health benefits and high heat stability. This makes it an excellent cooking fat. Here are some of the research benefits

of 100% grass-fed tallow and its nutrients. It may support healthy weight management. Grass-fed beef tallow contains the nutrient conjugated linoleic acid, that's CLA, and monounsaturated fats. CLA is a type of polyunsaturated fatty acid linked to several health benefits, including weight management. CLA supports the activity of anunsaturated fatty acid linked to several health benefits, including weight management.

CLA supports the activity of an enzyme that breaks down stored body fat to be used as energy. Monounsaturated fats are associated with reduced levels of belly fat and increased satiety. There's a long laundry list here, but I'll let you guys click this open in the show notes. Remember, paleovalley.com, discount code K-Y-L-E. You must get some of this beef tallow on a regular order coming back to the house. They've got spice bundles, coffee, all sorts of great stuff. And don't forget about the best snacks in the business, all at paleovalley.com. Kyle at checkout is going to get you 15% off. We're also brought to you by longstanding homies,

Lucy. Lucy is upping the nicotine pouch game with breakers, pouches packing a little something extra inside. What are Lucy breakers? If you know your pouches, you know that nicotine doesn't hit immediately and neither does the flavor. The geniuses at Lucy came up with a brilliant way to fix both those problems. They put in a mini liquid capsule inside each breakers pouch. Here's what you do. Grab a baker's pouch and break the capsule. Yes, with your teeth. It makes a satisfying pop. Put it in your lip and enjoy the immediate nicotine and flavor release. Nobody's doing anything like this except for Lucy. It's a new kind of pouch technology and it's only available from Lucy. No more sandpaper pouches drying out in your mouth. No more weak flavors that don't last. Breakers are different. They come in four or eight milligram of tobacco-free,

100% pure nicotine. Six delicious flavors, unique ones like apple ice or espresso and classics like mint or mango. Break up your dusty gas station pouches and go to lucy.co slash kkp and use promo code kkp to get 20% off your first order. Lucy offers free shipping and has a 30-day refund policy if you change your mind. That's L-U-C-Y dot C-O and use promo code KKP to get 20% off and always free shipping. All right, and verbatim, most creative verbatim. And here comes the fine print. Lucy products are only for adults of legal age and every order is age verified. Warning, this product contains nicotine.

Nicotine is an addictive chemical. Last but not least, we're brought to you by the homies at Organifi.com slash KKP. Use code KKP for 20% off everything in the store. All right, most of February, the purchase of any product will include a free gift product. Please check the show notes for the free product details. This is pretty cool. We're about halfway through February. We're grinding, product will include a free gift product. Please check the show notes for the free product details.

This is pretty cool. We're about halfway through February. We're grinding, but I love this stuff. So we're going to add this to the show notes. Some of the different dates, buy any two products, get a free tote, buy any two products, get a free chocolate. Between the dates in February, even including up to March 3rd, buy any products and get 15 free green juice travel packs. If you guys have not had the travel packs and anything that Organifi offers, it's not what I have on the regular. Obviously, more materials cost more money, but for travel, there's nothing like it. It is easily the most convenient way to get high-end organic adaptogenic herbs and greens or anything else for that matter, mushrooms, functional mushrooms, and different things that are going to help me throughout my day in the ready to go packs. So again, I leave these just like beef sticks. I'll leave these in my travel bag. I throw them

in my backpack. So anywhere I'm going throughout the day, whether I'm out at the farm for a long time or on the road traveling, I always have the healthiest food that I can put in my body. And what's amazing about Organifi, as I mentioned before, is that these guys have stuff that no one else has. They've combined things that, you know, like I said, I've been juicing and doing the fat-sickening nearly dead deal.

And I got tired of it because it was so big on carbohydrates, you know, and it really didn't taste good. But I wasn't throwing moringa leaves in there. I wasn't throwing ashwagandha in there. I wasn't throwing half the stuff that's in this product in the green. So highly recommend you guys check that out. Now, my homies at Organifi, I normally talk about Sunrise, the sunset kit and how awesome the red, the green and the gold juices are. But today we're going to focus on their new product, Shilajit gummies. Sourced

directly from the Himalayas, home of the world's finest Shilajit, and heavily tested for metals. Rich in antioxidants that can help fight free radicals, can support gut health and nourish the digestive tract by promoting the growth of beneficial bacteria, massive, improves the permeability of cell membranes, and helps to better absorb and enhance nutrient absorption. That's a pretty big fucking deal. That's a really big deal.

Can support detoxification. It does can enhance energy levels and overall vitality. It for sure does. So this is one of the things that I like about Sheila Jeet is that you don't have to take my word for it. Many people, the vast majority, when they take Sheila Jeet go, Whoa, I feel different and I'm not cracky and I just feel good. And the reason for that is you're getting a whole host of things that we're likely deficient in and your body is going to run better. The cells are going to communicate better. They're going to be able to share information better. And you feel that. It's a palpable feeling. Sustain substantiated benefits. It supports healthy testosterone levels in men and women,

supports bone and muscle health, and aids cellular energy and mitochondria health and cellular ATP. We're going to be deep diving mitochondria in an upcoming podcast with Dr. Jack Cruz. And as mentioned, decreases fatigue. Just take two gummies once or twice per day. You can get it all at Organifi.com slash KKP. Use code KKP for 20% off. And as I mentioned, for most of February, the purchase of any product will include a free gift product. Please check the show notes for the free product details. And without further ado, the return of my brother, Mark Gober. Welcome back to the podcast, Mark. Kyle, thanks so much for having me.

I'm so stoked. I say this every time we podcast, but I'm always blown away by the amount of work you get done in such a short period of time. I have friends that write books, and I know I talked about this on the very last podcast, but you just seem to be a machine that's able to just let stuff pour through you. It distills inside, and it comes out beautifully written time and time again. Well, I appreciate you saying that. When we last talked, I didn't know I was going to write another book. So it just sort of comes in, And when I get the hit, I realize there's something I'm passionate about. And then I go all in.

I love it. Well, today we're going to talk about a book that I missed and I ran it back. And that's an end upside down contact. And of course, your latest, an end upside down medicine. And it was funny because right as we were podcasting last on the end upside down reset, and we're talking about the great reset. And in the back of my mind, I was like, I wonder if he understands the connection from medicine and how the reset is being deployed. I was totally thinking about that. And then, of course, I follow you. You're one of the few authors I follow on Amazon. So when I saw this

was the next book, I was like, oh, he gets it. Here we go. We're rabbit hole in the same stuff here. Just phenomenal. Well well i don't know where to start maybe we start with the latest book and then we dive into some of the spiritual stuff towards the end and in contact because i think that's good talk about what gave birth to this you know i think for for a lot of people out there that aren't questioning the narrative they're just waiting for things to go back to normal they're waiting for their old life to come back. And whatever excuse happens after the fact, it's like, oh, you know, well, we had to rush this thing, or we had this, we had that, you know, and they really just want to ignore the conversation. And one of the things, one of

the reasons I like to stir this conversation up is because if we don't learn from the past, we'll repeat it, first and foremost. And secondly, some of the big players in the game, like Bill Gates, are predicting another giant pandemic, that this one will be worse and this one's going to affect children. And how they can make claims like that, I have no idea. I don't need to speculate. But it doesn't seem to be a conversation that the elites are putting behind them. So I don't think we should put it behind us as well.

Well, to me, it all comes down to personal responsibility. That's been a theme in a lot of my books. And when I started diving into medicine, that was the theme that came up yet again, that our freedom individually and collectively is in large part based on the way in which our body is functioning. And we have an ability to control how we're feeling way more than we're told. And we're basically told to offload our health to the authorities who know what's best for us, rather than tuning into our own body and thinking

about what we're putting into our body ourselves and what's happening within our mind and our consciousness. And this is the link to my earlier work for your audience. If your listeners aren't familiar with my journey, I was very much on a mainstream path working in investment banking in New York, then working in Silicon Valley and had an awakening of sorts in 2016 while I was working in the Bay Area. And it started actually in the health realm. I was listening to podcasts on alternative health, and then I came across spiritual topics. And in that time, I learned about energy healing and acupuncture and just alternative ways of thinking about health that were much more empowering. And then obviously everything starting in 2020 made me look even more deeply at, for example, the germ theory of disease or the injections that we're all given and questioning those sorts of things.

And this new book, An End to Upside-Down Medicine, combines the spiritual and the more conventional aspects of medicine, which for me brings us to a more empowering state of thinking about health. Yeah, I couldn't have said it better. That's absolutely beautiful. And I like that that was the birthplace of it. Health got me into spirituality as well, because health brought me to, you know, deeper dives, altered states of consciousness. And of course that led to plant medicine. And then, wow, here I am now meditating every day. I'm reading lots of books I can get my hands on that, that feel resonant to me. When, when, when you started to rabbit hole this,

you know, knowing how, how touchy the situation is, did you feel like, I mean, because you wrote it beautifully. There was no, like I said beforehand, there's no finger pointing. You know, you just kind of laid it out there in a beautiful way in terms of what you want this picture of health to look like versus what it's been told to us. I tried not to point fingers partially because I don't know exactly who's behind what. And it's hard to know the people's intentions because you could have someone with a really good intention who's pushing an agenda that's actually negative, but that person thinks it's

a good agenda. So what I'm trying to do in all my books, really, but especially this one is to get at the truth. What are the determinants of health and ill health in the body. And as I dove into it, I realized that modern medicine doesn't really understand that. There are indirect guesses and hypotheses about how health work and what remedies will work for us, but it's really a lot of guesswork. And if you look at the stats on health, especially in the West where we're supposed to be so advanced, things aren't looking so good. Chronic disease is way up. Cancer is still rampant. Heart disease is a problem. And iatrogenic disease, which is disease caused by the medical profession itself, is a leading cause of illness. So that made me really want to dive in.

Yeah, that's great. And I loved where you went with it. We've had Dr. Thomas Cowan on the podcast multiple times. I've been meaning to get the head of the Weston A. Price Foundation, Sally Fallon Morrell on the podcast. She's awesome. We're in contact, written a number of books that I really have held close to my heart, like the Nourishing Traditions Book of Child and Baby Care. What they outline in that book on what are the natural remedies for kids who are supposed to get sick? How do we bolster their immune system so they can go through that without antibiotics, without shots, without anything that's not unnatural. And then when they get sick again, they're better for having worked through that themselves,

right? They didn't have to lean on something. And I always have to say the disclaimer, like, if my son gets MRSA or staph at jujitsu, like that's when the antibiotics will come in. That's exactly what I want to use them for. But I do not want him using antibiotics for everything that I had. Every time I'd get a sinus infection, twice a year I was on antibiotics for probably 10 years. That's unacceptable. Yeah, the allopathic model, it's the major critique of my book, An End to Upside-Down

Medicine. But I'm not saying that it's never useful. There are targeted applications for sure, particularly in emergencies where it seems to work very well. The problem in my view is that it has become the rule that when there's any kind of ailment, the allopathic approach is used rather than looking at something more holistic. And to me, the allopathic approach is defined by two major characteristics. One is that it is looking at symptoms rather than trying to cure the root cause of illness.

And secondly, it's reductionistic. So it likes to look for a single and materialistic cause. And that means germs are a good culprit to say, look, there's this one microbe and that's the problem. That's why you're having symptoms. And we're going to use this one medical product to kill it like a war. And it's kind of a simplistic view rather than looking at a holistic view of how the body actually is functioning and what's going on physically, but also psycho-spiritually. Yeah, a hundred percent. Yeah. And I think the further we

rabbit hole spirituality, whether that's, you know, we're on different paths, you know, whether that's your plant medicines in my case, or, you know, the deep study of meditation through Ajahn Chah as you have, you know, we find these similar truths where we come to understand that there is a mental emotional thing that's usually attached to the physical disease. In almost every case, I've seen it in ayahuasca hundreds of times where there's a big purge and it's not always the case, but a lot of times there's a big purge and it's not just, hey, I didn't feel good. It's I felt a lifetime worth of anger.

I could fucking feel my dad yelling at me and I purged that, you know, like these things come up for a reason. And there's, you know, books from psychology, like the body keeps the score. There's a lot of other places where this gets documented, but none of this gets treated this way when we look at health and wellness right now. And I just love the fact that you pulled in people who really were thinking outside the box to draw on. Another great one was Dr. Susan Humphreys, who I leaned heavily on when we first had

Bear, who's eight years old. I read her book, Dissolving Illusions. I haven't heard many people talk about Susan Humphreys. I've heard Dr. Sherry Tenpenny mention her and things like that, but only in very small select circles have I heard her name. And that book blew me away. It absolutely blew me away on, you know, framing when each disease really hit its high point. Where was it when the vaccine came out? Were they able to actually give this virus and spread it via a whole host of weird fucking ways and it never catch on? It just opened up a whole rabbit hole there where I realized I'm not going to vaccinate our kids.

And that came with a lot of pushback from my family and different people. A lot of them are in Western medicine, registered nurses, medical doctors, anesthesiologists at Stanford. I stood firm because I understood it differently and I understand health and wellness differently. That was a big one for me too, Dissolving Illusions. And there's a website, dissolvingillusions.com, that has some of the charts available for free. And I include some of them in my book where it shows illnesses that were believed to be stopped by vaccines. And you can see the mortality

rate of the disease over time and when the vaccine was introduced. And you see the vaccine was introduced when the mortality rate was already way low. So that's not something we hear about from the medical profession very often. And another thing with regard to vaccines, as I started looking into it more starting in 2020, so for the last several years, is the lack of quality scientific testing. I mean, we're given the soup of substance in the injection, and very few people seem to be asking, I guess more today are asking, well, what's in that fluid that's going into the body? Can the body detoxify all that stuff? Is each substance safe on its own? I mean, we don't see tests where they're looking at each substance and injecting that in to see what each substance is doing. You're looking

at the vaccine as a whole. And very often there's a new book out by Robert F. Kennedy Jr., Vax Unvax, looking at, you're holding it up there. Right here. I got it for the viewers. Vax Unvax. I mean, really an amazing and simple concept, which you'd think would be prevalent in the medical community, looking at vaccinated groups versus unvaccinated groups and which group tends to be healthier, not just with regard to the disease that people are being vaccinated for, but also to other diseases. So which group has more cancer, which group has more infertility issues, which group has more Alzheimer's disease and so forth. And you'd want to know that people who are taking the medication are overall healthier than those who don't. And what RFK Jr. and his co-author Brian Hooker did was look at some of the studies that have been done that can make those comparisons. And they're finding in many cases that the unvaccinated groups are healthier than the vaccinated groups. Yeah, there's quite a few charts. I'm big on Audible. I like to listen. And I had this,

but I also got the book and I knew there was going to be charts and graphs and data points. And when you see them side by side, that's where it becomes quite clear what a 5x difference looks like or an 8x difference looks like for the chances of autoimmune disease or for asthma and eczema and different things of that nature. And you really can't unsee that. You can't unlearn that or just shy away from the data points because it's been around for a long time. And one of the things that I loved that Susan Hopfrey was pointing out was the timeline, right? You said it could be 10 years after this thing had a stronghold on people when they released the vaccine. And people at that time would say, watch the medical, the medical industry is going to say that they're the one that saved the day

20 years from now. And sure enough, 20 years later, they're like, yeah, we ended polio. We ended this or that. But to your point, no one is testing just shots of aluminum or thoughts of thymersol or shots of these different components. So it is really hard, you know, and even if they did that, that still wouldn't necessarily validate or invalidate some of the claims of why this stuff can be harsh on us because the fact that no one's testing the whole myriad of things that are going to our body. And that's something I really appreciated from Dr. Sherry Tenpenny was, you know, we saw a 300% jump in autism rates the year glyphosate wheat was put in. So we had GMO wheat put in and, you know, Bobby Kennedy has been excellent at discussing, you know, what the main differences are and how we grow with glyphosate. It changed before they'd

spray once in the very beginning of a grow and knock the weeds down. Once the corn was taller than the weeds, they didn't have to spray again. Once they found glyphosate resistant weeds, they use that DNA to merge with wheat to make glyphosate resistant wheat. And that was the first genetically modified wheat. Now they can spray it the entire season. That means they're selling more products. They're selling the seeds. They're selling more chemicals. And they even found they could use it as a desiccant at the end of the season.

If they sprayed the wheat field at the end, it would dry it up and that would prevent mold from happening. So there's all financial interests. But long story short, we're getting exponentially higher levels of glyphosate in our food than we did when it was first introduced. And if we pinpoint any one thing, Andrew Wakefield, they debunked him supposedly. I don't think they did. You talk to guys like Del Bigtree, who's the creator of the movie Vaxxed, Andrew Wakefield was a big part of that. But he was really pointing to MMR. And what Sherry Simpany is getting into is like, even if it was just that one thing,

we're looking at 10 vaccines for a kid born before 89, 72 vaccines before you're 18 for kids born after 1990, right? 10 versus 72 is a big deal, especially when we're talking about, you know, holistically what's all going in together. Then we look at food supplies. We look at flame retardants. We look at forever chemicals. We look at all the other things Bobby's talking about. And there's a holy shit moment. We're in a toxic chemical soup right now. That's a huge point, Kyle, that the mainstream medical community doesn't often talk as much about toxicology. It's much more focused on germs or, yeah, people are getting, we're seeing increased rates of this illness. We don't understand it.

And rather than actually trying to understand what's happening, and there are financial interests, of course, in this. I mean, there are huge industries that could be threatened if they had to change their practices, both the medical field but also other industries that use toxic chemicals. So it's a much more holistic view. And I think it's not just physical chemicals. We're talking about electromagnetic issues and electricity itself. There's a book called The Invisible Rainbow that looks at the history of electricity. And so this is stuff that we're not often thinking about. And our doctors aren't trained in this manner quite as much. There was a report in 1910 that came out called the Flexner Report, which explicitly talks about the change in medicine in the West. And this was

supported by the Rockefeller Foundation, the Carnegie Foundation, where they were going to move away from more holistic, homeopathic type thinking and move toward the allopathic approach. So you have many people, and I want to make this point clear, who are well-intentioned that enter the medical field, but they're trained in a very particular way. And they're not trained as much to think about nutrition and toxicology and electromagnetic issues. It's more about looking at germs and looking at the right antibiotic to use and looking at what's the right vaccine schedule. that's sort of a mentality that is this almost a war with the microbes as the primary way of thinking rather than asking people how they can clean up their own body and mind with their own environment internally and also just in their home and in their daily life yeah that's a massive massive thing you just mentioned a lot of people don't you got like guys like i mentioned this alex jones will probably be on this podcast at some point but on a rant he sounds like a pro a pro wrestler and he'll throw the Rockefeller's name out and George Soros and these kind of things. And it doesn't really lay it out cleanly.

There was an excellent podcast I did with a guy named Seamus Bruner who wrote the book The Controlligarchs where he actually spends a chapter on each of one of these figureheads. And he highlights this in the Rockefellers in the opening chapter early on, how they basically took virology from France, you know, with Pasteur and brought it to New York City and became the really, you know, the highest, the high paying players in the game that we're going to do the most studies in virology. And we're going to figure this out. And how much change just in that period of time alone around medicine, that's trackable. It's not, you know, it's not like some guy twisted his mustache, but it's a trackable thing. We know it's true. And this is how we've gotten the place that we're into today where it's, we wake up and we have an iPad, you know, like I talk about this to my kids. They wake up with

an iPad. They don't get to play iPad, but most kids are shoved in front of an iPad as a kid, and they just take it for granted. This has always been here. They don't realize like, no, that didn't exist. I didn't have an iPad when I was a kid. I didn't have a cell phone when I was a kid. Yet, whatever model we enter into, whether that stop on red, go on green, the red octagon, you have to stop at, whatever these rules are, it becomes a part of normal culture. And one of the biggest parts of that is anytime you get sick, you go see the dude in the white lab coat. The first person that pulls you out of mom is the dude in the white lab coat. It's not, it's not your dad. It's not, you know, a midwife in most circumstances. It's somebody you don't

know that you're not going to see again. And the only time you'll see that person is when you're sick. It's just a way of approaching health. And we take it for granted because that's how it's done today. And there's this phrase about modern medicine, looking at what's under the microscope rather than looking at what's within the macroscope. So the doctors want to look at tests and what's going on inside the body. And there's definitely value to that, but they're not typically asking what's going on in your life. Are you under stress right now? Part of it also has to do with the fact that the medical system is totally overloaded. So the doctors don't have time necessarily to get into each patient because they're just handling so much stuff. And that's because so many people are sick and it

becomes self-fulfilling. But my approach to health now is so different than it used to be. I mean, if anyone's sick that I know, whether it's myself or someone else, I want to know what's going on in their life. What's going on in their belief systems? What are they stressed about? What's going on in their relationships? What's their diet like? And these are not maybe the first questions that we're getting asked when we go to see the doctor. And partially from a clinical perspective, they want you to be well. So I can understand where they're coming from. You've got a symptom, you're really miserable for some reason, and they want to fix that. And it's often through suppressing the symptom. The problem is if you haven't gotten to the root cause and you're just

suppressing the symptom by putting a bandaid on, maybe the underlying problem is going to emerge in a new way and you're just going to get sick in another way. So for me, like I said, I'm trying to get to the truth and it's no different with regard to medicine. If someone's sick, I really want to know where is that coming from? We see symptoms emerging in the body. How is the body producing those symptoms? Where is it all coming from? And the more I dig into this, the more I realize that modern medicine often doesn't understand the answer to those questions. Yeah. And it's a huge, a couple of big points that you bring up there. One, I think the average time you get to see a general practitioner is like seven minutes now or right around there, seven or eight minutes.

That's not a long time. You know, like we're going to podcast for an hour at least. And that's a deeper dive there. And I'm sure, you know, even though generally conversations at home aren't as dialed as a podcast, you've got phone calls and kids running around different things, you're still going to have more time with a friend or someone you love than you do with your general practitioner. And it is important if we think of the new paradigm to start thinking about these things as what is the root cause? You know, when we start to say like, well, how most people think that's woo woo woo, you know, like I had lower back pain, never in my entire life. It happened in April of 2020. And then I connected the dots. I was like,

that's my spine. That's my support system. That's my root chakra. I'm in a lot of fear about what's happening in the world right now. And as soon as I came to terms with that, no more back pain, like fucking overnight. So, and that's N equals one. And I understand things differently, but I'm just saying that I think there's a lot that we can gather from what you just said there. Guys like Charles Eisenstein and Dr. Zach Bush, who are great friends, they flow right with what you're talking about. And people that are diehard into, you know, trust the science and scientific materialism,

it's beyond their purview. They can't see it. It's like a horse with blinders on. They can only see this path right in front of them that's already been laid out. And it's really hard to get to the change. But we're not speaking to the people that have the blinders on. We're speaking to people that are taking them off and saying, what about this? What about that? And I've heard about this before, you know, and I think those are the more and more people are becoming aware of potential differences that we can look at. Yeah. I want to go back to the point I made earlier about mainstream medicine being reductionistic and, and materialistic, or some would call it physicalistic, where they're looking at a physical

cause because the mind can actually compute that really well. It's very linear. It's almost like billiard balls. One hits the next, hits the next. and then you can say, wow, this is the chain of events happening. So it's very easy to say, well, you're sick because of this materialistic cause rather than, oh, there's this abstract thing going on in your mind, this belief system, and then it's translating into a physical ailment that we can see or that you can feel. That's much harder to grasp. And yet our mainstream scientific and medical community is stuck more in the materialistic realm. So I think part of breaking into a new paradigm of medicine is getting away from reductionism and realizing the power of

consciousness and the significance of consciousness. And this is how I started writing books. My first book is all about the idea that consciousness, our capacity for experience, isn't something that is coming from the body or from the brain, but rather our body and brain, that system is somehow picking up consciousness or filtering it from beyond the body. And the minute you go there, everything changes because then the body itself becomes a vessel of something rather than the whole thing. From the materialistic reductionist perspective, the body just emerged from the universe through a random process of evolution. And then when the body dies, that's

the end of your consciousness. Whereas if you reverse it, and this is the upside down thinking that I'm talking about reversing, then consciousness is more fundamental and the body's processing consciousness. So from that lens, we've got to rethink health because we're talking about the body when we're talking about health. And if the body is a vessel of something, then it changes the whole game. quadrants look when you have the materialist point of view versus the non-dualistic point of view. And when you've got, you know, your classic science versus the terrain theory and broader spectrum, you know, when you obviously I'm bridging medicine into politics here, how that graph was used, but I can see how that overlays in the topic you're bringing up right now as well. Yeah. In the Liberty book, I was talking on the lens of liberty versus authoritarianism or statism versus voluntarism, but they go together because really what we're talking about with medicine is in alignment with voluntarism and freedom, which gets more into the terrain model of thinking about health where the individual is responsible, whereas under something more authoritarian, the state's going to be responsible for health. This notion of public health that we want to take care of everyone and we know what's best rather than a more freedom

oriented perspective, which is, you know, your body best. Yes, there should certainly be people to help you do that, but you're going to be taking responsibility for what you put in your body and what you put in your environment and how your mind is functioning. Yeah, it's beautifully stated. I'm actually listening to a fantastic book from a guy named Leonard Sachs. You heard of him? Yes. Yeah. Medical doctor, has a PhD in psychology, family medicine guy. He's written a number of books on gender differences, which is right before that became not okay in some circles, but the collapse of parenting. And that's exactly one of the things he gets into from how culture has changed in the US over the

last 50 years. He calls it the culture of disrespect. One of the things that led to that were more peer-to-peer bonding than peer-to-parent bonding. And peer-to-peer bonding became apparent when parents stopped being parents and started being pals and friends. And I think about that, you know, there's a great book by Garber Monte called Hold On To Your Kids, where he really dives into that. What does that actually look like when you're on full peer peer? That's how gangs start. That's how a lot of nasty shit goes down. Right. Um, yet when you have the right bond with your kids, there's a level of respect that comes from there. You're teaching somebody how to operate in the world. You're giving them the tools to be a thinker for themselves. Um, you know, there's less fragility. He

dives into fragility as well. I see a lot of fragile kids now. They go to one practice, they don't do well. Coach tells them show up tomorrow early and they say, I'm done. I'm going to go back to playing video games. And I think one of these solutions has to be in the parenting, but parenting, you know, the real reason I'm driving in the parenting piece is because so many kids are put on medication because parents would rather say, what issue does Bobby have rather than how am I not doing my job right? Right. So they put that off. Again, we're displacing ownership of our own responsibility for our health.

We're displacing ownership for own responsibility for our children's behavior. And we can say it's, oh, it's this, you know, polyphasic bipolar children's disorder. And there's a medication for that. Or you could say my eight-year-old is doing exactly what an eight-year-old does when they don't have structure. Right. When they don't feel held, when they don't have a routine that's actually going to benefit them. Something is off. And if I investigate that and take ownership of that myself, I can fix that

without a medicine. Right. And if we have the next generation coming up with more of a perspective of personal responsibility, that also helps to prevent against global authoritarianism. Like we talked about last time, we're speaking about the great reset. And this is a key issue that medicine and health are one of the levers that can be used and have been used to basically bring about a slave state or a state where people are beholden to the authorities. And we saw that with COVID. And we saw the book written by Klaus Schwab and Thierry Mallaret, Klaus Schwab of the World Economic Forum, called COVID-19, The Great Reset. So it was talking about how an illness was going to bring in a reset of

society in all the ways we talked about in the last interview. So this is a key issue from the perspective of parenting. If we want to have a free society, ultimately bringing up kids who are encouraged to think about personal responsibility and taught those things from the parental authorities rather than teaching, well, just listen to the person on TV and listen to the person in the white lab coat. I'm not saying totally disregard those people, but think critically about what they're saying because we've learned very acutely in the last few years that they've been wrong about a lot of things

that they were sure of. Yeah, and if we were able to think for ourselves, that's when we might've found somebody like Dr. Zach Bush or Dale Bigtree or somebody else that was bringing in experts in their field, absolute experts like Robert Malone and different people like that. Who's the guy from North Texas? I forget his name. Yeah. Peter McCullough, Dr. McCullough. Like when you get experts like that, that are totally counterintuitive to what the mainstream narrative is saying, you only get to hear that if there's some level of openness and some level of discernment,

right? And it doesn't mean you throw the baby out with the bathwater because someone's on TV or on mainstream media. It just means you ask more questions. You really want to get to the bottom of something, find it, you know, listen to both sides. This is where we have to start steel manning each other's arguments instead of straw manning each other. It's a skill.

That's what I'm realizing. It takes time to develop the trial and error to hear so many different opinions and sift through what's true and what's not. Because often there's a hint of truth out there. Even in the people that I strongly disagree with, there's a hint of truth that they're bringing. And it's almost like finding a mosaic of all the different thinkers out there and putting together our own perspective. And that takes time and energy. That's the reality. One cannot be lazy in this, because if you're lazy, then you're just going to go with whatever you see on the front page of the news. And then you'll get maybe just a hint of the truth rather than the full thing. And with

regard to health, that can be a serious issue. Yeah, no doubt. We see it now. We see it now kind of everywhere. There's been some amazing documentaries. There's been some amazing books. I forget the guy's name. Who was the guy from Black Rock? I already had him on the podcast. Ed Dowd? that was the name of his book? Not Died Suddenly. It was, well, I'll find it and put in the show notes. But Ed Dowd's book is mind-blowing because there's pictures there. There's pictures of kids that died on a football field a day after getting the jab. There's pictures of all these young people, people that are in shape, athletes that you'd expect to live a very long time that have no other issues. There's no comorbidities. Certainly wouldn't have died from COVID. And then they just dropped dead. And you have like adult sudden death syndrome is the first

time in our history they start labeling shit like this. It's quite apparent if your eyes are open to see, but if not, people will do whatever they want to do. But I think about things like that, where you can personalize. And that's one of the most beautiful things Ed did was he told the story of each person and he brought that home. Like this is a 16 year old. Imagine this. This is your, this is your Nana. This is your father. This is the provider of the home. And I think that that story really matters because it draws the heartstrings and wants us to pay attention a little bit more. So I think there's, there's a lot of potential there. One of the big uphill battles, I think, and this is why your first two books are so great, is because if we stay in the lane of constantly pushing the joy button, you know,

being a bliss junkie, as Jamie Will would call it, entertaining ourselves with sitcoms and fucking, you know, show after show on Netflix, whatever the thing is that gets us through. And we're just waiting for the weekend to get drunk again. And a lot of people, I mean, that was my life in college and a lot of people that still lived that life. If we stay in that lane, it's a dead end. And that lane is being serviced for us from the Schwab's of the world and different people. That lane is being serviced fully. Brave new world. They talk about Soma and a lot of things that are, that are, you know, he connected the end point. Aldous Huxley did his is he knew a lot of people that were in that space of

technocracy. So, but in, in these first two books, what you're talking about is you're, you're turning it upside down. You're rethinking what it means to be alive. What is the point of our existence? Why are here? What is consciousness? talking about is you're turning it upside down. You're rethinking what it means to be alive. What is the point of our existence? Why are you here? What is consciousness? How is consciousness primary? And I feel like that is the difference between someone being able to think for themselves and say yes to taking responsibility for their own life is that fundamental understanding or fundamental remembering versus just staying on the, on the, you know, the rabbit wheel of running around and, you know, chasing tail, chasing drunk, chasing this or that, just entertaining themselves.

Yeah. To me, pleasure becomes recontextualized. That's what's happened in my life. If I were to summarize it with the recontextualization of consciousness, I used to believe consciousness comes from the body and the brain. That means when your body dies, that's the end of your consciousness. So you end up with this attitude of sort of like, eat, drink, and be merry. It's going to be lights out soon. There's no real meaning to life. You can make up meaning. You can rationalize something, but there isn't any meaning that's built into the fabric of reality itself. So do whatever you want to do. Just be as hedonistic as you want,

and that's it. And I'm not saying now don't have pleasure, but it's in a different context. So if consciousness is fundamental or something like it, then that means our bodily vessel has some broader meaning within an intelligent soup of consciousness. The analogy I always use comes from Dr. Bernardo Kastrup. He says it's like we live in an infinite stream of water where water is analogous to consciousness, and each of us is a whirlpool within that stream. So we're all interconnected in this consciousness together. On some level, our identity is the full stream, but on another level, we're the individual whirlpool. And when the whirlpool stops being a whirlpool, the water flows back into the broader stream, meaning our consciousness continues in some capacity in the interconnectedness.

That's a totally different perspective than the view that it's just all the body. And you could even have water from one whirlpool reconfigure into a new whirlpool, which is like the idea of reincarnation, which is also supported by research done at the University of Virginia, over 2,500 cases of young children with past life memories, some of which have been validated by historical and medical records, separate topic. But that just, I mean, that was mind blowing to me starting in 2016, when I realized there was science to back that up because it changes your view of life. And then having a different view of life changes one's mental health and belief systems, which to me then starts to translate into physical health.

Yeah, those are foundational pieces, right? And you can, you know, the more you dive into the quantum and the understanding that nothing's actually solid, the more this actually makes sense on how we could have physical ailments coming from a mental emotional problem or physical ailments from a lack of spiritual connection. And the list goes on and on, but even just fear, right? Fear of the world, right? That's my root. That's my grounding cord. And if I have fear of the world and where I'm living for my kids, I'm going to get that somewhere through here, right? It's just going to happen. So, but this is perfect timing because I wanted to transition into end upside down contact. And the reason for that is so much of it,

I think you did a fantastic job because not only did you cover the potential extraterrestrial, right, which we keep getting fed more and more of, and it's kind of like, on the one hand, I'm not certain if it's just, hey, look at this. Hey, look at this. Follow this now. You know, I'm not certain if it's that or if, you know, for whatever reason, the powers that be have decided that this is something that we're going to, you know, humanity's ready for now, so we're going to talk about it. I'm not certain I've always geeked out on stuff like that.

But the thing that I really appreciated about your book was that you went into the spiritual, you went into the potential of, of different spirits coming across them in different ways, uh, near death experiences, which I want you to expand on because this shit had me lit. I was like, wow, let's go, let's go, let's go. And again, you validated that. There's science that backs that up. That fundamentally changes the nature of what we've been told. It's what, you know, from what we've been taught in a scientific, you know, materialistic society. Yeah. So the book, An End to Upside-Down Contact, was born out of my desire to understand the forces of dark and light. That's really where it came from. When we first spoke about my book, An End to Upside-Down Liberty, that was a book right before

Contact. So I was looking at government structures. I was looking at government as basically a parasitic entity rather than something that is protecting us. That's the basic theme of the Liberty book. But because I was coming from a spiritual lens, I was already asking the questions of, well, what are the forces influencing these parasitic organizations that we know throughout history have committed genocide and enslavement? That's been the history of government all over the world. What's influencing that? If we live in a sea of consciousness, is there something more than just physical influence? So I was looking at things like spirits and UFOs, all these things that we've actually heard about throughout history. If you look at religious traditions all over the world, spiritual traditions, they talk about

forces, whether they call them angels or demons, or the star people, the sky people came down and taught us things. All over the world, there are threads here of otherworldly intelligence and human beings having contact with them and those beings having an influence on our society. So for me, the question then becomes, well, I mean, a lot's happening in society right now. There seems to be forces of dark and light for sure. What are the forces influencing our power structures that we can't always see with our eyes?

And that could be from the lens of, well, they're just secretive beings that exist in a physical form that are nudging power structures or influencing or even blackmailing maybe. And or are there multidimensional forces involved? It's not just something physical. Because often when you hear about contact, and we see this portrayed in the media very often, we're talking about a physical craft in the sky. And I don't deny that. There's some evidence, and I talk about the history of that. Richard Dolan's done a really good job as a historian looking at the history of alleged sightings. But to me, that misses the broader point. It's the physical within the context of the metaphysical. Because what if this stuff is multidimensional, where stuff is popping in and out of our consciousness?

And what if you have beings that seem to be able to actually manipulate our consciousness from a non-physical perspective, because they're much more advanced, and even influence our memory? Because our memory is a really important part of how we think about life. I mean, if we think hard about our memory, we can't actually prove it even, because it's something that occurs as a thought in the present moment. So our memory is an inference. And if you think about the possibility of past lives, like I mentioned, the University of Virginia scientists, doctors, Ian Stevenson and Jim Tucker, for example, who have been looking at these cases of young kids and they find the historical record that lines up with what the kid says, where the kid has a birthmark or a physical

defect that aligns with how they claim to have died in the previous life. And they can find a medical record that shows, yeah, there was a person that died in this way. And this kid's got a physical issue that aligns with it. Wait a second. That implies that perhaps some of us, or maybe all of us have had some other existence that we can't remember. We have an amnesia.ia, then things start to get weird with regard to human history and how we think about the world at large. So that's kind of the primer for why I even wanted to explore these topics in that book. That's phenomenal. And, you know, something we talked about before the podcast was the synchronicities I had in exploring one of the

darkest subjects on earth, which is the kids, you know, and really, I had a very basic fundamental understanding of that prior. I'd listened to different people on different podcasts, on buddies with Tim Kennedy, people that actually have, you know, been on missions to rescue kids from sexual enslavement. And so I understood it was happening. I had no idea to the degree of how it was happening. And I think a lot of people, you know, they want to, the, the torture of the innocent could be nothing worse, period. And, uh, Paul Cech had Oliver Stone, Oliver Stone's son, Sean Stone on his podcast within the same like week that I was listening to an end upside down contact. And they talked about, you know, his tv show and how he interviewed some

of the survivors um you know from the most brutal sex cults on the planet that were demonic and all the all the things and you actually interviewed one of the survivors from that show yeah i was quoting sean's interview which is quite a synchronicity because this is some esoteric stuff and i'm glad you're willing to talk about it, Kyle, because I've noticed that people tend to shy away from this subject. And let me give some context here, because this is important. When I first got into the spiritual subject,

the discussion was primarily in my research around, wow, we live in a universe full of unconditional love. And the nature of consciousness is unconditional love. And it's a feeling and a sensation and just a state of being that cannot be described. It's that intense. And just to tie this to health for a second, Anita Morjani, she famously had a near death experience where she was terminal cancer in a coma. Her consciousness went to another place and she felt this unconditional love and she started to redo her way of thinking. Her cancer

went away. So it disappeared. But anyway, it still bears the similar theme of it's all love. And I think that's true on one level, but there seems to be a spectrum that I started to get into when I was looking at liberty and looking at the darker side that, yeah, there's a level of love and pleasure that's beyond what we can comprehend. But on the flip side, there's a level of evil that most of us couldn't comprehend

or even conceive of if we wanted to. And that's what I got into a bit in the contact book is there's good and evil forces. And the evil stuff really seems to be just the inverse of love. And that means it seems to be the destruction of innocence. And the greatest level of innocence is around children. So there's some unspeakable stuff that I've come across in my research that many others have come across too, people that have survived some of this stuff, and it's hard to believe. I mean, in the contact book, I mentioned one book where the foreword was

written by a Utah state investigator, and he confirmed that the woman who went through these horrific things had confession letters by the perpetrators who described exactly what she had talked about that came from her own memory. Because people will say, well, the memories aren't real. It couldn't be true. She had handwritten confession letters and there was a Utah State investigator that validated this was part of the case. So that's one of the issues is that there can be embellishment and maybe some cases that are fabricated and false memories, but then there might be some other cases that are true and there's history behind this. And even religious and spiritual traditions have been talking about this sort of abuse of children and torture of humans as part of how our spiritual realm works. There is great good and great evil.

And this is essential in what you mentioned before, the term discernment. It's the spiritual journey to me I'm appreciating more and more is not just about the love part. The term that I've used in my books is compassion, which is in a line with love, compassion with discernment, to uncover the wolf in sheep's clothing, because it seems that the greatest evil is a deceptive one, one that masquerades as benevolent, but under the surface is something completely opposite. And the love and light teachings that we hear in spirituality, the exclusively love and light teachings can cause people to miss that

and can cause people to fall for things that are deceptive. Yeah, there's journeys I've had that will cause the same thing. You know, a handful of journeys with the Sonoran Desert Toad where I experienced just unconditional love vibrating through every cell of my body. And it was like, wow, that's it.

That's the pinnacle. You know what I mean? And then I crossed paths with what Paul Levy describes as Watico, the Native American mind virus, you know, where everything's upside down. It's bizarro world. It's citra acra. It's inside outland. And it's really hard to wrap your head around that as a function of it. Like, why is this a function of reality? But it does start to make sense. And one of the things Levy gets into is the gift of battling with Wetiko is discernment and compassion.

Those two things come from tangling with some of the dark interior forces out there. And just one last piece I wanted to mention on that was you included two state laws that have been written into state laws that describe some of the shit that's happening. And they're written in the law books as, you know, any participation in X, Y, and Z, we don't need to repeat them here. But when you read that or you hear it, it's like, they wouldn't put this into law if that shit was hocus pocus. You know, they wouldn't, they would absolutely. And you're talking about fecal matter and different things that, again, like we're not going to describe it, but the detail of which they go into can leave, you know,

a little to imagine of what goes down in those circumstances. It's, it's jarring. And I want to warn your audience. If people haven't gotten into this stuff before to wade into this material carefully if you're interested, because it can be heavy on the heart to learn that this stuff goes on and that innocent people and children and animals can be affected by such horrific things. My opinion is that it's critical to know these things exist, because if we stick our head in the sand, then we're not going to know the extent of the evil, and then we're going to be naive. And that's maybe one of the biggest problems we have in the world is not

appreciating the level of evil. So I think it's important to know about, but then there can be another level of getting sucked into it where our own positive energy gets brought down. So we have to just manage our own energy as we wade into the material. But like you said, Kyle, there are laws that talk about specific things, which if you saw them in another context, you'd be like, well, that's just some kind of horror movie. That couldn't be true. So what I tried to do in End Upside Down Contact is show the most concrete levels of evidence.

And then there are cases that are more anecdotal and we can't always prove everything, but I think it has to be explored. And you were alluding to, I think, the notion of evil leading to evolution. And that's how I tend to contextualize darkness is that it ultimately helps us in the end, even if we can't understand it while it's happening. And I'm still struggling this with myself because some of the really evil stuff, I'm like,

can it be evolutionary? I mean, as a former athlete, I played college tennis. I remember when I worked out really hard and pushed myself hard, that's how I got good. So I remember that. And I think about some of the greatest challenges elsewhere in my life. The challenge led me to be able to excel in other areas. I mean, I sacrificed a lot in my life professionally, academically to just dive in and want to do really well for my clients or want to get good grades. And that's enabling me to write books more easily because I went through a lot of pain before. So I can see the benefit of evil in some cases, but then in other cases, it's hard to wrap my mind around. So I want to, I can't remember if

I told this in a past interview, but it's worth repeating. One of my favorite spiritual teachers, David Hawkins, um, he talked about when he was elevating in his levels of consciousness that he was faced with evil and he was basically faced with a test, which he didn't know at the time. And this knowingness or voice came to him and was like, look, you've transcended all of your personal karma. All power is yours here. Just take it. And in that instant, he said, Hmm, I, I have, I've trans I am everything. Why do I need to have power over others? I'm going to reject this. And he claims he was shown all of the people that came before him who either passed that test or took the bait and then had to start from the beginning of their karma. And what many spiritual people who've studied spiritual awakening say is that we're tempted with three general things, money, sex, and power.

And there might be different variations for each of us. And those things can bring us down and pull us away from our own evolution. And it seems that when I look at evil, it's in those, it's in that same realm, money, sex, and power, where there's a perversion of those things and people get really sucked into it. And they're the bait, basically. And we have an opportunity to transcend the bait and say, no, we are one with everything. And yes, money, sex, and power external. What we can control is what's within and the choices that we make ourselves. And that's how I, at least at this point, as we're talking can contextualize why evil exists is because the choice seems to be within us. That's beautifully, beautifully stated. And, you know, Paul Cech, often, oftentimes we'll talk about, we live in a novelty generator, right? Like it's constantly seeking new levels of love and new levels of connection. And Gaffney, Mark Gaffney talks quite a bit about

this as well in A Return to Eros and some of his other great works. But in order for that to take place, right, and we already know the only constant is change, there has to be some fire lit underneath, right? There has to be something that guides that. And it is, and you're very careful about in contact on like, you know, the worst thing happening should leave to maybe a great spiritual lift or a great positive thing. It's very hard to contextualize it in that way. But personally, same deal. Personally, the hardest shit in my life made me better. And in hindsight, if I use that as foresight, whenever time shit hits the fan in the now,

I'm not like, well, relax. You know, it always pans out. It's always better. You know, this is going to teach me some awesome, it's going to be some awesome gifts for me in here. I usually miss that in the present, unfortunately, but it is true when I look back, you know, and I think of some of the hardest things in my life, growing up with parents that yelled at each other nonstop.

My wife and I have never yelled at each other. We've been together for 13 years under the same roof. We don't yell at each other and we've never cursed in front of each other in front of the kids. We don't, we don't, there's no name calling. And it was like, if it was just that to teach me how to be in relationship with someone someone I love, fucking worth it. I can go down that list too. I think we each can if we really look at that. And that helps us to make sense of it, a thing that you can't really make sense of. And maybe we'll never make full sense of it.

There's a great quote by Rainer Maria Rilke that's, you know, don't ask to know the answers right now, right? Because you can't handle the, you can't handle the answers. Instead, live long enough that you may live the answer, right? And in doing so, you'll have a greater understanding as it moves through you. And that's kind of butchering the quote, but I love that. It hits home so hard for me because there's a lot we could say, like, I need to know this, I need to know that. And it's like, oh, all of it will be revealed. Let's just keep playing the game and let's use discernment and have compassion and play the game better than we have in the past. That's a really important point is that our linear minds like to try to come up with reasons for why

things occur. And we're probably just scratching the surface because reality is so complex and multidimensional that we couldn't comprehend it fully even if we wanted to. But I also want to add with regard to this mindset, which is ultimately we're coming up with an empowering perspective in the very end, even though there can be pain in the middle. The danger I've seen in that perspective is that people will sometimes just rationalize and say, oh yeah, those kids are being tortured and just that's part of their learning. So there's nothing for us to do about it. That is a distortion too. So I think there's a responsibility for us to say, yeah, there might be suffering in the world, but that doesn't mean that we should just ignore it. And going back to another David Hawkins saying, he was at one point quoting Ramana Maharshi, the great Indian sage,

who said that, you know, the world that we see doesn't even exist. So he was blissed out in this meditative state and Hawkins was sort of in that state himself, but he decided to come back in the world because he said, look, yeah, Maharshi is correct that the world that we see doesn't even exist. So that means like things like suffering, they're sort of illusions, but not everyone's operating from the level that Ramana Maharshi is operating at. And they are experiencing real suffering. So Hawkins said, I'm going to come back in the world to try to alleviate that suffering. So it's this balance of, yeah, maybe the suffering leads in the very end to something benevolent. But those of us who aren't suffering, there's a spiritual duty to do our best to alleviate that suffering. So it's complex here, not to just leave stuff alone. The term is spiritual bypass. And it's

the one that I'm most concerned about where you say, okay, well, there's darkness. I'm going to ignore it. It's not my issue or darkness within. I'm going to ignore that. I just want to focus on love and light. Yeah. Fucking beautifully stated brother. Beautifully stated. Well, I think we've, we've, we've kind of touched on this throughout the podcast, but with the potential of more shit hitting the fan down the road whether whether gates is right or whether you know schwab's right that there'll be a digital issue you know what do you call it the um god i forget the name of it yes he has these great names he's like a fucking he's like darth vader or the sith lord uh but he talked about you know the the coming the coming um issues would be

you know make covet look like a walk in the park. So a lot of people speculate that could potentially be the grid turning off for an extended period of time or different things like that. Again, just like we talk about looking into the stuff happening with kids, you can stare too long into the darkness and it's going to be there. Like it's not going anywhere. You can really rabbit hole topics like this. And I don't recommend that. But with these potential threats that you see from the great reset, you've covered so many of them. What takeaways do you have for people right now that are coming to terms with the potential of shit hitting the fan in the next five, six years? I personally have become less and less concerned about what happens in the world because so much of it I can't control.

I know I can control what goes on in my own mind, my own body, my own immediate surroundings. So that's what I tend to be focused on. I think that's the best all of us can do. And we can share things with people so that other people are more aware. And we're doing it in a more public way, but other people do it maybe just in their private settings with their family members and share information so that they can make better choices. And that's probably how it's going to win is through a more grassroots way where individuals are taking personal responsibility and saying no and discerning appropriately based on their assessment of the world around them. But taking down the system, that just seems like a more and more daunting idea because the system is the way it is and it might fall under its own weight. I end the medicine book on an amazing quote of this idea that the Leviathan can't be stopped by the rebels. It may be it will fall because the

rebels in society are sort of helping by spreading more information. But, but the task is to save our own souls and obey our own conscience, which naturally wants to help other people and to focus there. Because what else can we really do? I love that. Yeah, I absolutely love that. And it reminds me of the serenity prayer, which has been such a big piece for me since 2020. Like, grant me the wisdom to know the things that I can change. I can refocus and stay in that work in different ways where in their own life circumstances, they can have a big impact. But my point is that it might just be different for each of us. And to just focus on our unique skills and our abilities and what's going on in our family life and our intermediate settings and

what we can actually make a contribution for. I love that, brother. Well, you got anything else cooking? You're constantly churning out stuff. Probably nothing now, but you will be. I guarantee I'm going to get pinged on Amazon the second something comes out. Nothing now. I always say this after I write a book. I may never write another one. I don't know.

There would have to be something that comes in, comes into my field that is such a paradigm shift that I have the time and the interest in exploring that I'd feel comfortable writing about, and it has not happened yet. Well, I love everything you've done, brother. You're an amazing human. I'll link to all of your books in the show notes. Every single one of them is phenomenal. There's a lot of similarities in how things get threaded together that's worth repeating and worth reinstilling. So I appreciate that you have these common threads throughout each book as well. Well, thank you so much, Kyle. I always appreciate your support and appreciate the work you do too. Thank you.