Kyle Kingsbury Podcast - #343 Marc Gafni on the Twelve Faces of Eros Part II(Intro)

Episode Date: February 21, 2024

Part II of Marc and I’s 14 part series on the Faces of Eros and his work with his counterpart Kristina Kincaid, A Return to Eros(paperback). These are all perfect as stand-alone episodes, AND I believe the whole body of work will be greater than the sum of its parts.   Marc’s Books: A Return to Eros(paperback) A Return to Eros(audiobook) The Erotic and the Holy Your Unique Self Soul Prints: Your Path to Fulfillment Self In Integral Evolutionary Mysticism    Gardeners of Eden sign up for the newsletter and stay tuned for the “Day In The Life” event   FIT FOR SERVICE  I will be putting on free webinar on Wednesday the 28th on mitochondria and systemic energy, at Noon CST for 90 minutes. Please come learn some of the foundational knowledge I’ve used to optimize my health. Then come do the damn thing with us in the container of Fit for Service Academy    Connect with Marc: Website: MarcGafni.com  Instagram: @marcgafni Facebook: Dr Marc Gafni X: @marcgafni Substack: Marc Gafni YouTube: Dr Marc Gafni Medium: Office For The Futur   Show Notes: "How To Eat, Move and Be Healthy" Paul Chek  "A New Earth" -Eckhart Tolle  "The Unlikely Peace at Cuchumaquic" -Martin Prechtel How Can You Not Be A ‘Guardian of the Galaxy’ MOVIECAST w/ Marc Gafni #416 Apple Spotify   Sponsors: Happy Hippo Kratom is in my opinion the cleanest Kratom product I’ve used. Head over to HappyHippo.com/KKP code “KKP” for 15% off entire store Paleovalley Some of the best and highest quality goodies I personally get into are available at paleovalley.com, punch in code “KYLE” at checkout and get 15% off everything! Lucy Go to lucy.co and use codeword “KKP” at Checkout to get 20% off the best nicotine gum in the game, or check out their lozenge. Organifi Go to organifi.com/kkp to get my favorite way to easily get the most potent blend of high vibration fruits, veggies and other goodies into your diet! Click that link and use code “KKP” at checkout for 20% off your order! FREE PRODUCTS!!! Head over to Organifi and check out their free stuff for the month of February! To Work With Kyle Kingsbury Podcast   Connect with Kyle: Twitter: @KINGSBU  Fit For Service Academy App: Fit For Service App  Instagram: @livingwiththekingsburys - @gardenersofeden.earth  Odysee: odysee.com/@KyleKingsburypod  Youtube: Kyle Kingbury Podcast  Kyles website: www.kingsbu.com - Gardeners of Eden site    Like and subscribe to the podcast anywhere you can find podcasts. Leave a 5-star review and let me know what resonates or doesn’t.

All right, this is round two with Dr. Mark Gaffney. It's actually round three, but it's round two of a 14-part series that we've decided to put together. And I have been, I don't even know what the word is, just graciously brought in to help steward the wisdom keeping that Mark Gaffney has spent his entire life uncovering. And really what this is about is a deep dive into his book with Christina Kincaid, better known as KK. I'm also a KK as a Kyle Kingsbury,

but Mark and his amazing female counterpart wrote a book called A Return to Eros, The Radical Experience of Being Fully Alive. I read a lot of fucking books. I know it goes without saying. Check tells everybody about all the books in his library. I think it's hilarious. He does have a massive library.

I'm trying to get like Paul. When a book like this comes along, it sticks out like a sore thumb because there are books that changed my life and there are books that plant a seed that changes my life and continues to plant more seeds that continue to change my life, that continue to unravel the very nature of my existence, the very nature of how I understand consciousness, how to relate to consciousness, how to be in the world. And this is that book. I can tell you there's probably three of them that did that

for me. How to Eat, Move, Be Healthy by Paul Cech from a health and wellness standpoint, A New Earth by Eckhart Tolle, The Unlikely Piece of Kuchuma Keek by Martin Prechtel, also reframed reality. And there's probably a short list of others, but this, A Return to Eros, is beautifully written. And so what we wanted to do is unpack this in the 12-part series where we went and deep dove for an hour each of the 12 Faces of Eros. What we quickly found out was, hey, there's a fat chunk of this book before we get to the 12 Faces of Eros that we need to cover. And that became part one and part two. So today's part two. If you missed part one, you can backtrack or

you can just jump right in here. Don't worry about backtracking if you don't want to, if you're like, fuck, I don't want to do that. Each of these is meant to stand on its own. And what's great about today is we backtrack what we covered in part one. We refresh, we reframe, and we bring about what it is we're actually talking about. Now, I do find it highly valuable to at least listen to one of these first two episodes before we dive into the faces of Eros so we understand what the hell we're talking about. At the same time, it should be self-evident as we get into what we're unpacking in each of these 12 faces as we move forward. So on all the 14 episodes, these are going to be numbered. So you'll see part two, part three, part four, up to 14.

We have an episode before this that talked similar, unsimilar items, but different items. We'll have a different episode midway through that talks about a different book that Mark is launching and we want to help promote. But get this book right now. It's going to be in the show notes on every single one of these podcasts. You'll be able to go in there and click it on Amazon or any of these other places. It is phenomenal. It will change your fucking life. And if you're able to listen to all 14 of these, that too will change your life.

It's meant to be that good. It's meant to be something that helps you see the world and work with the world in a different way. And as Mark so clearly points out in today's episode, we're at a pretty critical point in human history where a lot's on the line and it's really easy to forget that. It's really easy to just say, well, I'm going to just do my own thing and I'll change the world as little or as big as I can just by being me and I'll go to my job and I'll make sure I'm checking off the boxes on responsibilities

and all that stuff. Don't fall into that trap. We are all far more capable than we believe ourselves to be. And if nothing else, I'm going to get more joy out of my remaining days here. I'm going to teach my kids how to get more joy out of our remaining days here, however long that is. So love this one. There'll be many more. And I'm ecstatic to be able to do this with Mark. So thank you again, Mark. There are a number of ways you can support this podcast. First and foremost, just share it with a friend. Anybody you've had a spiritual conversation with, I think this will land.

If you are buddies with a scientific materialist, there's a pretty stark evidence here from Mark in his book. And maybe you don't share this one, but maybe you listen to all these and then share it. There's a lot there. There's a lot that can open the mind. And to only the ones that are willing to be open. So we got to remember that as well. But sharing it with a friend, leave us a five-star rating with one or two ways the show's helped you out in life. Support our sponsors. They make this show possible. And also before we get into sponsors, I want to tell you guys a little bit,

a real refresher here on gardeners of Eden.earth. If you guys got a chance to listen to the last episode we did, it was with the farm boys. It was an excellent episode. One of my favorites from the year. We're going to be doing more of those. So please tune into those. They're great. Many teachings that go into the, into those, into the podcasts that have very, you know, they have stuff to do with farming, but they go beyond that as well. Habits, all the things that we're into do with farming, but they go beyond that as well. Habits, all the things that we're into. And really, as I mentioned at the end of that podcast, we are going to be doing different events at the farm that aren't fit for service related, that are just for people that want to learn more, from learn more on health and wellness,

learn more on being physically fit, learn more on how to grow their own food, how to rotate animals, what does regenerative agriculture actually look like? How is it different from traditional agriculture? And we're going to deep dive these things for two days. They'll be called a day in the life of, we don't have a date set yet, but if you go to gardenersofeden.earth and scroll to the bottom, there's a place to sign up for the Gardeners of Eden newsletter. Punch in your email, hit subscribe, and here's what's great. You're gonna get one of these a month maximum.

I promise you, maximum once a month. You'll get a newsletter describing the happenings at the farm, including information of upcoming courses, but this is the way you're abreast to stay in the loop on whatever it is that we have coming up. So please, please, please go leave your email there. We're trying to grow our brand. We're trying to grow our brand. We're trying to grow our reach.

And that really helps us actually have a beat on who's interested, who wants to come out. And then from there, you'll be the first to know when we announce the dates for upcoming events, courses, and stuff like that. I'm really excited to be a part of that. Also, I want to mention Fit for Service. Fit for Service has been something I've been a part of for five years, five long years of learning with Aubrey Marcus, Eric Godsey, Caitlin Howe. We've been on many podcasts together. We've been on, a lot of people have learned about my podcast through me being on Aubrey's. A lot of people learn about Godsey, who has a phenomenal podcast by coming on this

podcast. So we've been homies at the old think tank of Onnit for a lot longer than five years. And this is what we really transitioned to into something where we could teach everything we knew. And of course, I got labeled the physical guy and I wear that hat and I don't mind it. I believe I'm much more than that, but I do believe all things start with the physical. And so this next year, we're going to be changing a lot. We are becoming Fit for Service Academy. In the academy, we'll be teaching six courses, physically fit, mentally fit, emotionally fit,

spiritually fit, romantically fit, and financially fit. There's different coaches for each. Some of us all come together for the spiritual, but physically fit is really about looking great, performing better, and living longer, right? Aesthetics do matter. They matter if you want a relationship. You want to be romantically fit? You should look your best. If you're trying to get financially fit and you want to create shit in the world, you need to perform. That's a performance thing. You need energy. You need cognitive energy. You need systemic energy to be able to grind the way Alex Hormozy said you need to grind. Live longer. We all want to live longer. Even if you're young and you're not thinking of that yet, when you hit 40 and a tiny knee injury

that would take you out for two weeks takes eight months, you start thinking about this shit. How important is it for me to be able to run? How important is it for me to be able to do yoga? How important is it for me to be able to play pass with my kids and have tickle time without creaks from a broken neck from 10 years ago? This is where it all comes together.

And physically fit, I would argue, also is a precursor to mentally fit. It's very hard to stay mentally sharp when your body's in pain. It's very hard to stay your best when you don't have energy. When you've got low energy from poor sleep and poor everything else, that shit adds up. And now you're fighting an uphill battle every day to your mental and emotional fitness. So if you're interested in Fit for Service, this is the place to start. Start in physically fit and go to fitforservice.com and check it all out there. Also bring this up because on Wednesday, February 28th, it's the final time, Wednesday, February 28th at noon CST, I'm going to be doing a very free, 100% free webinar. You can sign up for it at fitforservice.com.

If you don't see the link, just ask, you know, click on the question, send an email and ask for the link. We'll get that sent over to you. And this webinar is going to be 90 minutes, most of which I will be teaching. And then some of which I'll be telling you about the course itself, what I'll be teaching for the next 13 weeks

and what's going to happen when we all meet up with 200 people at Fit for Service in the three different locations we've selected. So it'll be a deep dive on that stuff. It is a giveaway. We're trying to give you guys, just like Alex Hermosi says, we're giving you steak.

We're not giving you the smell of steak. We're not giving you a bite of steak. We're giving you some steak. And if you want the whole meal, come for the whole meal. But I promise you this webinar is going to fucking deliver. And as long as you're taking notes, it will change your life.

There's no two ways about it. I can stand by that. And the webinar is also going to have a great And as long as you're taking notes, it will change your life. There's no two ways about it. I can stand by that. And the webinar is also going to have a great deal of the information and knowledge from many people that I've been following for years, like Dr. Dak Cruz, who is coming up on this podcast very shortly. So I'm excited for that.

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free gift product guide. Without further ado, my brother and mentor, Mark Gaffney. Mark, welcome to round two. Welcome to round two, my friend. It's great to see you, Kyle. What a delight. A delight eros by itself already before even a word is spoken. Absolutely, brother. Absolutely. So we are in round two and we want to go 14 rounds here, right? But the 14 rounds is we're not trying to knock someone down. We're trying to pick it all up. So we want to go for kind of a knockout punch, right, for the sake of the evolution of love. So in the first conversation, we talked about eros, the erotic, and what eros actually means.

And, you know, we talked a little bit about the eros formula, the eros equation, or we should have, right? Which is, I'm trying to remember, did we or didn't we? We did. We got to it. But if you want to refresh it, you can. Right? We talked about the Eros equation, which is Eros equals radical aliveness you know, I'm Jewish and we try and arouse sympathy, you know, it took me about 20 years to come up with. So if we could get like a little oi and a couple of violins here, I would certainly appreciate that.

Right? So that, it was a lot. It was a couple of decades just to formulate that because what we were trying to formulate was an equation that governs cosmos. Meaning it's not this nation's equation. It's not the Jewish equation or the Buddhist equation. It's not the economics equation or the chemistry equation. It's not the molecular biology equation. It's not the anthropology equation.

No, no, no. Actually, all dimensions of cosmos are part of a one breath, a one love, a one eros. It's one world, right? It's a coherent cosmos. It's not a random cosmos. It's a cosmos filled with surprises, with spontaneity, with freedom, but freedom within a script. Each instrument in the symphony of Eros may play a unique note, and there may even be unimaginably beautiful jazz refrains that are emergent, but there's a score of music. We belong someplace.

We live in a cosmos whose reality is Eros, and this Eros equation will allow me to understand my own experience of Eros. Eros lives in me because I'm personally implicated in the erotic cosmos. The erotic motive of cosmos lives in me because I'm personally implicated in the erotic cosmos. The erotic motive of cosmos lives in me. It will allow me to explain relationship. It'll allow me to explain politics, governance, right? Everything will actually emerge through this eros equation. And I want to add one more word just to kind of finish. This is just by way of just a brief, fragrant, if you will, recapitulation, if we can use that symphonic term of what we talked about last time, because where we're going is this week, in just this short conversation,

what's the relationship between the erotic, eros, the sexual, and love. Those three words, that's what we're going to play with this week. But before we get there, I want to just, if we can, with permission, everyone, just to complete the recapitulation, which is that, you know, people always think about eros, and when you say eros, you're like, yes, yes, yes, right? The scene in, what was that scene in when Harry meets Sally in Katz's Deli, when she shows him, she convinces him that she can fake orgasm. And she does it in the middle of Katz's Deli, and the whole place kind of looks, and the lady at the next table says, I'll have what she had. So, Eros enlivens us, right? Eros gives us this sense. And then when we think, after we talk about Eros,

we think ethics, we're going to go, okay, I guess we had to work the ethics out here. So we have this experience that Eros and ethics clash, but they don't. Because actually, Eos and ethics actually are utterly identical. There's actually no split whatsoever between full eros and full ethics, because what is eros? Eros is the desire for deeper contact and greater wholes, meaning the separate parts are in right relationship so that they don't lose their own individuated integrity and yet they form larger wholes. That's called ethics. That's what ethics is. So eros, when you actually understand the eros equation, it's

kind of shocking. And this is, we're talking, you and I now, in the language of what I like to call, brother, second simplicity. No slogans, but no jargon, right? Slogans, first simplicity. Jargon, way too much complexity. Second simplicity is we've worked through an enormous amount of theory and literature and experience and practice and more theory

than we've been able to kind of cut through it and actually access the deepest structure of truth, goodness, and beauty, which is the second simplicity. So we're talking in terms of second simplicity here all the time. So eros and ethics are one. They're not split from each other. The erotic is the ethical. Let me just go one more step, and that's the end of our recapitulation. And we alluded to this last time, which is that all collapses of ethics always come, not because she was a bad girl, he was a bad boy, they couldn't follow the rule book. Shame, shame, shame. That's almost never why they happen, right? Collapses in ethics happen because there's a prior failure of eros. That's a very big deal. It's like, oh, oh, when I feel empty, when I feel dissociated from the eros of cosmos awake and alive in me, that's unbearable.

It's actually unbearable, right? Not because I'm pathological, not because I'm crazy, not because I'm caught in early traumas, but because eros is my true nature. And this is enormously important. I'm going to say the next sentence very, very gently, you know, not as a form of attack or form of just gratuitous critique, but as a kind of loving discernment and correction. So when the enlightenment community is like my colleague Eckhart Tolle, we'll talk about the realization of your true nature as pure awareness. After I gag, then I fall asleep.

I get kind of furious because it's not true. You're not, I'm not awareness. Just feel in your body. I'm awareness. Oh, slay me. Right? In other words, yeah, of course I want to be aware, right? But that's actually not what I am. You can actually literally access in your body immediately. There's a dimension of awareness. There's a dimension of consciousness. I don't like the word either awareness or consciousness. We don't actually access them in our body. They're a little dissociated. We don't quite know what they mean. And they certainly don't arouse us to our fullest self. So I want to actually use more accurate words. One is eros. My true nature is I am eros. That's what I am. I am eros. Now eros has a capacity to be aware, has a capacity for consciousness, but it's more than that.

And it's not just that I'm eros. It's not just I'm not merely a separate self, but I live in the field of eros, but that field of eros is a field of eros value. Eros is not static. It's not neutral. Eros is the ought of cosmos. You ought be erotic. Right? Eros is the command of cosmos. Cosmos commands eros because the nature of cosmos is Eros. Evolution is Eros, the movement of separate parts, becoming larger wholes, always seeking ever deeper contact.

So the value of cosmos is Eros. And let's just play for a second, play for a second. And everyone here who came this week to hear about the erotic and the sexual, that's coming down like crazy fast, but this is going to really help. So let's just play with the word value. And I've just been thinking about this the last four or five days, right? And I'm excited about it. And I actually kind of got a little crazed this morning and wrote four or 5,000 words on this just because I was kind of deep in this this reflection and I was just wildly excited about it and it's of course so obvious but of course when you see the obvious for the first time you're ecstatic so I want to just share something wildly obvious but it's kind of ecstatically beautiful so the word value let's just play with words right because words are Wittgenstein wasn't wrong, words are the fundaments of reality. Words are magical, right, brother?

I mean, where's language? I get that, grunt, grunting we get. Oh, right, we get grunting, we get moaning. But words? If you actually experience the shamanism of a word, you fall in a rapture in tears, right? Just shocked by what does that mean? That this word describes and evokes that meaning. And so we're not going to talk here about semiotics and the philosophy of language,

which is a, but it's very important, the shocking nature, wa, wa, water. And this ecstatic moment where she actually experiences this new intimacy with Cosmos, where she's able to communicate with Ann Sullivan, I think her name was, which was her nurse. So language is wild. So let's play with language for a second. So value. So value is wild. So let's play with language for a second. So value. So value is validate. You validate someone. It's valor. Valor, right? Valiant. Remember Prince Valiant comics, right? Valiant, right? So we got to validate. valor, right, valiant, right? Then we have like Valentine, right? You and I are

recording two days before Valentine's Day. We're on Monday. I think it's Wednesday, right? And please, no one forget you're going to get in so much trouble, okay? so remember, it's Valentine's Day. It's a big deal. Okay, right? And then there's valence. Now, let's look at this last one, valence, because this is where the game starts. A valence is the valence of an atom. And a valence means the unique combinatorial potential of elements, atomic elements, to combine with each other based on, you know, the number of protons and based on the nature or number of shared electrons that can move between the atoms. And when the atomic elements come together, do they add electrons, drop electrons? But valence means the erotic capacity to form new intimate communions. So that's really interesting, okay? So valentine, which of course comes from this Prince Valentinus,

or an early saint, but valentine, they both come from Latin words, and the Latin words are valere, right, or valentia. Valentia generally means more clearly worth, value. And valere means is actually a command. It's be strong. Valere, be strong. Strength, right? We talked about strength before, which was slightly embarrassing for me as we compared our capacities to lift certain things, but let's not go down that road here. We don't want to go into shame, right? But so this, right, this sense of Valerian means be strong, but it means be strong in value. So you're strong, you're a hero who's valiant and is valorous because you're participant in the field of eros, which is cosmos, that eros moves in you,

you're identified with that eros, you're standing for that value of eros, so you are standing in relationship, you're healing the damsel or rescuing the damsel in distress unique incarnation of the eros value of cosmos awake and alive and he and she, right? He's a lover. She's a lover. She's a valentine. She's strong because her strength emerges from her participation as value, meaning she's not a fucking postmodern social construct, right? Who's a random expression of an accidental cosmos, which is pointless and meaningless. No, that's actually, no, no, no, no, no. Hero. And the notion of the hero is so important. Heroes are early adopters

of what I call homo amor. I call it the move from homo sapien to homo amor, meaning that the evolutionary explosion of the new humanity, of the new human, the human being, who is unique incarnation of the love intelligence and who's omni-considerate and omni-responsible for the whole, right? Which is, we call that the fourth Big Bang, but that's a different conversation. But the notion of the hero, you can only be a hero if you're in a love story. If there's no love story, there's no valor because there's no Valentine. Because there's no valence, right? There's no coming together, right?

And it's valence describes the movement of atoms to come together to form molecules, which is the same movement that makes Kyle and Mark friends and Kyle and Aubrey friends. And it creates necklaces between people that create deep bonds, right, of friendship, which are no less strong than the subatomic particles that make up an atom. It's the same chemistry. We call it chemistry. But we use these words that actually dissociate us from the erotic nature of cosmos. What's chemistry, right? Chemistry between two friends, between classical beloveds, is no different than the chemistry of the valences of atoms. It's the same thing. When you say there's chemistry, what we mean is there's an intrinsic valence,

which has intrinsic value, which is the eros of cosmos, which is the valentia of cosmos, which is the strength of the hero who has valor. It's like, wow. It's like, did you see the movie, my brother, which may or may not win a bunch of Oscars, which is a complex question, right? I think it is probably the single most dangerous movie made in the last year called Barbie, right?

I did not. My wife saw it. I missed that one. So Barbie, like Barbie opens with Ken. It's Ken and Barbie. But the entire point of Barbie, which I'm not going to go down that road now, but the entire point of Barbie is there's no love story. There's no Eros and Cosmos.

The point is, there's a certain moment in which Will Ferrell, who's the chairman of Mattel, says, Sasha, the daughter of one of the heroines, says, so what's going to happen to Barbie? And he says, Will Ferrell, who represents patriarchy, he says, Barbie loves Ken. And then Barbie says, I don't love Ken. But when it says Barbie doesn't love Ken, it's not Barbie as in, you know, Vailana, our friend Vi, right? It's not a specific woman and a specific Ken. It's the archetype Barbie, the archetype Ken. It's line and circle. It's yin and yang. It's the upper

waters and the lower waters, right? There's no Eros and Cosmos. There's no Allurement. It's not real. Because it's not real, one of the themes of Barbie, which is now up for all these Oscars, and it's at the very center of culture, is that there's no heroism. So the movie opens with Ken saying to Barbie, look at me, look at me. And of course, he's being mocked. And Ken says, I only exist in Barbie's gaze. But of course, he's right, right? That's actually the nature of Eros. We actually only do exist in the beloved's gaze, but they mock it as this kind of play of patriarchy. In other words, the notion that a love story is real is mocked throughout the movie and placed into the mouth of patriarchy. And so Ken, in the very beginning of the movie, right, he says to Barbie, look at me, look at me. And he says, I'm going to beach. I beach. That's what he does. I beach.

What does beaching mean? I beach. I'm a lifeguard. I don't swim. I beach. So, okay. So he kind of runs headlong into this kind of brick, you know, like, you know, little barrier and kind of falls down absurdly. Then he looks up and he says, Barbara, did you see me? Did you see me? So it's this mocking of heroism, right? Because if there's no love story, then there aren't heroes, right? So it's a big deal, right? To be a hero means to be aligned, to participate in the value of cosmos. And so that's this notion of eros value. It's the eros value of cosmos. When that collapses in me, I cover it up with what we called last time pseudo eros, right? All the forms of addiction and acting out. Okay. So we just spent a bunch of time on our recapitulation. I'm going to check our time here. Okay. We spent a bunch of time.

I just want to jump in for a second. I love how up to date you are on all the movies and shit. I absolutely love the podcast you did with Aubrey on Guardians of the Galaxy. I'll link to that in the show notes. Oh my God. That was fantastic. I mean, I was just chomped. I've loved every second of it.

So you'd be the best person to watch a movie with because you'd have takeaways that I wouldn't necessarily be considering. Oh my God, oh my God, no. Yeah, yeah, of course. No, no, amen. We actually just had a great conversation with our mutual brother, McCod, right we talked movies in New York, but we actually

got to get a podcast going just about movies. We did the Barbie movie in, I think, the Failed Love Story podcast, but we did it in like six minutes. It was like Blitzkrieg. We got to actually set it up. Movies are the new stories of culture. And when we argue, maybe last sentence, this is a huge topic. So I will shut myself up in 90 seconds. But just in a word, when we're talking about Barbie, we're not talking about, and I know that you know this, Kyle, so I'm sharing it really with everybody. We're not talking about what were Greta and Noah.

Hey, Greta and Noah, big shout out to you guys. Lots of love. But I don't give a fuck what Greta and Noah were thinking as they made the movie, you know, the Upper East Side of New York. That is utterly uninteresting. That's not the point. The point is she speaks through her stories. You know, I spent a beautiful night many years ago with, it was then Larry, now Lana Wachowski, who made The Matrix. And when she made The Matrix, you know, so right after The Matrix,

you know, she made V for Vendetta. So we spent a night at her place with Karen in, it was in Chicago, you know, interpreting V for Vendetta, and then kind of going into kind of interpretations of The Matrix. And I said very clearly to Lana, and Lana, of course, took that as a given. She was completely clear about that very beautifully. The fact that you made the movie doesn't give you any authority over the movie. But that's actually, that's not how it works. And I'm not interested in your intention of the movie. But that's not how it works. I'm not interested in your intention of the movie.

That's utterly uninteresting. It's not uninteresting, it's socially interesting and of course I'd love to hear over a cup of wine. But that's not the point. The point is that she, the force of Eros, the love and intelligence of Cosmos, speaks through the texts

around the campfire, through the stories told around the campfire. And our Netflix is the new campfire. It's filled with an enormous amount of garbage, right? And Netflix is addictive, right? It means the notion that actually, do you remember, I remember when I was a kid, I'm a little older than you, right? A telephone used to go off at midnight. I'm dating myself. There were three major channels. I remember three channels. I remember when we got like the first, the first extra eight or something.

It was like channel 11. That's right, three channels. KTVI, exactly. I went, when it went from three to the extra eight and made it 11, that was like a big fucking deal. Yeah, it was a big deal. So, I mean, I grew up, you know, I'm like six, seven, eight, nine years old on three. And then at midnight, that

little bird, colored bird would come up and they'd play the Star Spangled Banner. You'd have to go to fucking sleep or play Scrabble, right? But the notion in culture, this is a completely different conversation. It's one of the deoroticizations of culture that actually you can watch Netflix around the clock is actually destructive in culture. But that's a different conversation. So Netflix is destructive, but the movie per se is actually culture's dissolution, and at the same time, they hold, right, the possibility, right, the possibility, right, the beautiful possibility. You know, KK and I have a date night on Saturday night, so we try and watch a movie once a week, and, you know, KK says, don't take notes. So here we go.

So we're in Eros. We're in Eros. We talked about Eros value and Valencia and Valeri. And I was really excited to talk about that. That's like a really important structural piece. Now let's go part two. So just to show you're tracking, you know, friends, Romans, and countrymen. We're tracking.

We did a recapitulation of eros. Then we talked about two, this notion of eros value. We talked a little bit about pseudo eros and a little word about movies. Those are our first four parts. Now we're in part two. Okay. Drum roll. Part two. This is a big one. And we're going to do this only briefly, but let's see if we can get it. So now, what's the relationship between the erotic and the sexual? One. What's the relationship between eros and the way we use the word love, right, and the sexual? So let's start with eros and sex. And this is like crazy important. And you really can't move, you can't breathe without this. So first, when we use the word erotic, we generally think sexual. An erotic toy is a sexual toy. A store with erotica, right, is not a store with math textbooks, right? It's generally have

something else, although I don't think there are erotic stores anymore, right? When we grew up, there were erotica stores and there was always one porn theater someplace, you know, within, you know, the neighborhood somewhere. And now, of course, that was all pre, you know, pre-explosion of internet, pre-pornhub, pre-all of that, right? So what that means is a very, very important conversation. We'll try and get to it in a couple of moments, but first let's just start slow. So it's very clear if we've tracked up till now, and if you haven't, friends, this is a great place we can find each other, right? That there's 12 billion years of Eros before sex. So that's a big deal.

It's like, whoa, right? So Eros incepts cosmos. In the first nanoseconds of the Big Bang, we have gazillions of quarks, right? And three quarks actually have to be together or they collapse. And then, you know, if you have a kind of three quarks with a particular structure of up quark with a particular structure of up quark or a particular structure of down quark,

depending which one is a proton and a neutron, and then the 380,000 years ABB after the Big Bang, they come together and form atoms, and then atoms, molecules, and macromolecules, right? And then, you know, the intensification of intimacy that generates, you know, cells, singular cells, single cells, multicellular, prokaryotes, eukaryotes, right? Neural net, neural cord, kind of all the way up the chain. All of that is eros.

And in other words, it takes about 12 billion years until we get to sexuality. And so sexuality is an expression of the erotic drive of cosmos. But if sex disappeared, you went back, you'd have 12 billion years of Eros, right? And that's, of course, self-evident and beautiful from the Eros equation. Eros is, right, the desire for deeper contact, right, and an ever greater wholeness, right? And, and, and ever greater wholeness, right? And like, again, with total respect, Kyle, you know, I happen to swing heterosexual. So you and I are probably never going to have sex, right? But, right. I know, I know, I know, but, but I hope we get like, I hope our erotic union, when we look back at it in five years from now, we'll say about five years

ago, when we were doing those Eros conversations, we were just getting going. And then 10 years from now, so Eros is a deepening, right? And I want to kind of declare publicly, I am really excited about future and deeper erotic unions with my friend Kyle, right? So Eros is not sex. Eros is Eros. And I want to live erotically in every dimension of reality. And what that means is the 12 faces of eros that we're going to talk about. So now what's the relationship of sex and eros? And here it gets very beautiful and very elegant

because reality is nothing if it's not beautiful and if it's not elegant. So the way we might say it is the sexual models the erotic. It doesn't exhaust the erotic. So what does that mean? And I think now we've got to move out of kind of a meta mind-heart mapping into kind of some real examples. We can actually feel that and know kind of what does that mean. Let's take a simple example. So one of the faces of Eros that we'll talk about somewhere down the road, you know, a few months from now, is the relationship between gifting and receiving. And one of the things we know is that the structure of the economy,

the modern economy particularly, post-Renaissance, is you either are giving money into your account or you're receiving money from your account. But those are two very different actions. So I'm either giving money into the account. Here's $500,000 to put into the account. Or I'm receiving money from the account, right? I'm withdrawing from the account. I'm receiving from the account into my own coffers that $500,000.

Now, let's make it easier. Let's make it $5,000. Okay? make it $5,000. Okay. So if you go to a bank and you tell the teller that you want to receive money from your bank of $5,000, but you don't have $5,000 in the bank and you tell them, oh, but giving and receiving are one, they will throw you out of the bank. End conversation. And, you know, if you really insist, right, they're going to throw you out of the bank even more dramatically. And they may even call family services because you're insane. I mean, if they actually think that you believe that this is what's supposed to happen, that's a form of insanity.

And clearly, you're either putting money in or taking money out. They're not the same thing. And that's the form of insanity. And clearly, you're either putting money in or taking money out. They're not the same thing. And that's the structure of society. And it's a tragic structure. We need it in order to create certain stabilities in society, and there's a deep truth in it on multiple levels, but it's not an ultimate truth. And the place that we experience most dramatically the subversive the appropriate subversive undermining of the superficial dimension of that truth is in sexing

because we all know that in sexing the split between giving and receiving breaks down. That's actually no longer true. In other words, am I giving pleasure or am I receiving pleasure? Huh. All of a sudden, that obvious split that's such a given, and really every other dimension of the experience of homo economicus, no longer applies. Just not true.

Right? And in every dimension of sexing and, you know, for all of our friends listening, yeah, we're talking about that and that and that and that. Right? Every one of those, right, are you giving pleasure? Are you receiving pleasure? And actually, the greatest gift someone can give you is to receive pleasure.

Right? And it's my willingness to receive your gift of pleasure is actually the greatest value gift I can possibly give you. Right? And so the whole split between giving and receiving collapses. Giving and receiving become one. That's very beautiful. So what we do is we exile that experience to sexing on its best day. I wouldn't even say to sexing because that doesn't usually work. And most people's sexing is broken. Different conversation we'll get to

along the way. Sexing is fundamentally broken in society, right? Not only are people having less and less sex in the last 15 years, when we track both open societies and closed societies, you know, that sex is more available than it's ever been. And in all demographics, but especially younger demographics, right, people are having less and less sex. That's kind of A but b you know as rollo may commented you know some 25 years ago you know there's so much availability there's so much right technique and there's so little pleasure right and that actually our sexual pleasure right and so you know i think kyle there's a couple living someplace in New Jersey that got it right.

We're not sure where they live. There's a rumor about them. There's some couple that are getting the sexing thing right. But between you and me, pretty much no one else is. The sexing thing is actually a mess, right? The amount of marriages, huge, huge amount of marriages, right? Sometimes I think it tips to the majority. It's unclear.

Acts are platonic between great people. These are things no one talks about. So you've got this explosion of availability and this collapse of sexing. So I want to bracket that for a second. In some sense, everything we talk about, about sex and eros is going to be addressing this in the next, you know, 13, 14 conversations. But for now, let's just say that this subversive undermining of the superficial split between giving and receiving, which takes place in sexing, pretty much doesn't take place anyplace else in society. Everyplace else, either giving or receiving.

That's what we want to call, based on the lineage of Solomon, but integrating an enormous amount of other sciences, interior and exterior, but I just want to call it second simplicity, if you will. That's the exile of the erotic into the sexual. Right? In other words, really the sexual models the erotic into the sexual, right? In other words, really the sexual models the erotic, which means that actually the split between giving and receiving should actually demarcate all eros. Actually, in all relationships, there should be a sense

that giving is receiving and receiving is giving, that there's actually an entirely different way that we interact, that we exchange, that we both value things appropriately, but we decommodify, we reclaim the immeasurable, right? We reclaim the priceless. We begin to understand, right, the much more subtle, subversive, fascinating, and gorgeous relationship between giving and receiving, which they so often collapse into each other. That's absolutely true. But not only does the sexual not model the erotic,

we exile that knowing, that gnosis, into the sexual. And it's in the sexual, again, only on its best day, because generally it doesn't work. But the sexual on its best day, we know that's true. It's obvious. We have a glimpse at it in like our best day, because generally it doesn't work, but the sexual and it's best day, we know that's true. It's obvious. We have a glimpse at it and like our best day of dancing, right? We're like one night we're dancing together and all of a sudden somehow the split disappears and there's something happening. In Lana's second Matrix movie, right? There's, you know, that great rave dance scene in Babylon, you know, which, where you see Neo and Trinity making love in the alcove kind of above, you know, the great

dance scene. And you have this sense of the undulating giving and receiving and the dance of Eros, you know, which is not sexual, It's pure eros. And you can actually feel that they're participating in the currency of eros that's cosmos. But actually, reality is eros. It's actually always giving and receiving. It's never not that. There are no self-made men. There's always this giving and receiving that's happening all the time. And it's only when I recognize, when I place my attention, it's the placing of attention that generates reality. In the original lineage Hebrew, the placing of attention is simlev, to place my heart.

It's when I place my attention that I actually can begin to see it's all giving and receiving. So to liberate Eros, and Eros is in the lineages of Solomon also called Shekhinah, the goddess, or what I often call She. To liberate She, to liberate Shekhinah, is to actually liberate Eros.

And to liberate Eros is to turn to the sexual, to the wisdom of the sexual, to understand that it models the erotic. It doesn't exhaust the erotic. It's the seat of all wisdom. And here's the last sentence on this. It's very, very beautiful. You know, the single most stunning and sacred book of the Western canon of esoteric sacred literature, sometimes called the Bible, is called the Song of Solomon or the Song of Songs.

That's, the Song of songs is quite literally. Are you really? You're like, what's this? When you read it, you actually realize it's a series of love notes between a lover and a beloved, you know, and the scholars say,

this is just tavern songs. And of course the scholars of which I have been guilty of being among them at certain times. Right. But not on this issue. But the scholars also, you know, why would this be a sacred book? It's just tavern love songs. No, tavern love songs are the most sacred thing in the entire world.

That's where the texts of the sacred are written. The texts of the sacred are written in the popular love songs between lovers and beloveds in taverns all through time. So this is a series, the Song of Songs is a series of outrageous love notes between a lover and a beloved, and they're explicitly sexual, right? They're not merely eros. They are actually one very good scholar who didn't get this wrong, but he was actually reading the book, Yehuda Libes. He said, if the Zohar, which is the 13th century wisdom of Solomon book, if the Zohar is erotic, he said, you know, the song of Solomon is pornographic, right? In other words, it's precisely, right, you know, wildly explicit. Then the Talmud, third century says that if all of the law and all of the ethics and all of the wisdom of all great traditions did not exist, it was deleted from existence, you could govern all

of your life and all of reality and all of economics just by reading the Song of Solomon, just by reading the Song of Songs. It's like, wow, right? So we're getting back to where we started towards the end, right? Eros and ethics are one. The sexual models the erotic. In other words, by placing my attention on the sexual, actually all ethos, all wisdom, right? All the laws of eros actually live in the sexual. But we exile them to the sexual, meaning we only access their capacity on our best day in the sexual. We completely forget about them the rest of the time. I'll just give you one last example, right? One last example, and we'll close on time.

But I'll give you just one last example, which is maybe a helpful one, right? One last example, and we'll close on time, but I'll give you just one last example, which is maybe a helpful one, right? And you wouldn't know anything about this, Kyle, but other people have this experience that they have called fantasy, right? Fantasy, right? So it's a fantasy. It's a fantasy, right? So what's fantasy? Fantasy is this wild capacity that human beings have. We don't have evidence that it exists at the same level of self-reflection out of the human world, right? And fantasy means you actually get wildly aroused, not by seeing anything directly, nor by doing anything, nor by any tactile, physical connection right, connection with something, you imagine something, you think about it, right? Now, that's pretty wild. That's a wild, I mean, we kind of take that for granted, but actually it's a wild capacity. And I'm just telling you a little secret

for a second. Again, this is, you know, between us and don't, you know And we'll edit it out or maybe we won't, right? So it's a little secret, right? So in the human potential movement, in the new age world where people do these long guided meditations. So between you and me, Kyle, most people lost their way in the first two minutes. Or a thousand lotus petals that open up into the white drop in the red circle, which moves through the bar. Really? I'm tired. Right? And it keeps going on and on. But of course, you can't admit that you've completely lost the thread of this because then

you're kind of not spiritual. So you got to sit through like a 45-minute guided meditation. And then, oh my God, if you're like at a three-day weekend of them and you got lost in the first one, you're like, fucked. Okay, so let's not deal with that problem. It's a different problem. But it's hard. The point is it's hard to follow guided meditations. And not because you're not spiritual.

It's actually quite hard, right, to actually imagine. It's actually a very, very precise capacity. The prophets were masters of imagination. And actually, one of the major wisdom texts, sacred texts reads, by the hands of my prophets, I'm imagined. So the capacity of imagination is actually a very precise quality. And it's a very rigorous gift that needs to be cultivated and practiced again and again. That's just true. But any of those people we just mentioned, if you associate with this, anyone listening, right, that may get lost in a guided meditation.

So let's imagine it was a different kind of meditation. And I'll address this, you know, we could address it to the men. We could do it in a different way to the women. But since I'm a man, I'll address it to the men. Okay, so, and I'll address it, you know, again, because I'm a heterosexual man, and I'll address to the heterosexual men. It obviously can be translated appropriately across platforms, right? So you look across the room.

There she is. Her eyes are quiet and deep. And there's a softness in them. Her shirt has three buttons open, and you catch kind of the nape of her neck and the beginning of her chest. And she looks at you from across the room, and she opens another button. Now, I could go on for 45 minutes. I'd be right there listening every minute of it. And describe that scene.

And no one would get lost, right? Not because we're perverse, because we're beautiful, right? Because we're gorgeous, stunning, homo amor, erotic beings. But what we see here is something very beautiful, is that the capacity of imagination is exiled in the sexual. In other words, in the sexual, we have instant access to that quality of fantasy imagination, which is the same quality. But then when we try and apply it to actually focusing

our attention on the metacrisis, we just look away. Let's focus our attention on climate change, we look away. Let's focus our attention on methane gas under the tundra, let's look away. Let's focus our attention on 7, 8 billion people which require that which is produced by fossil fuels, right, and the dangers of fossil fuels, but actually the clash between those two, which is a very strong and complex dialectic. We're not willing to actually pay attention, right, to the erotic detail of that to actually generate and imagine new possibility. We look away, right? So let's imagine, let's fantasize about a world in which

no one's hungry. Oh, wow. I'll fantasize about that. But we have to actually learn, we have to re-eroticize reality. The sexual models the erotic, and yet eros has been exiled into the sexual. So just like giving and receiving and the knowing that those are has been exiled into the sexual. So just like giving and receiving and the knowing that those are one was exiled into the sexual, this quality of imagination of fantasy is exiled into the sexual. So to liberate the erotic is to turn to the sexual and say, teach me how to fantasize, right? Teach me how to do that. You're my master. And it's a very beautiful relationship to the sexual. And I'm not coming to conquer the sexual. I'm coming to embody the sexual with full

mutuality, of course, with full beauty, with full dignity, with full ethos, and with full eros. And so maybe let's go to the last step. Last step, and we have, I think, like five or six more minutes. So last step. So we said we would also talk about love, about the erotic, about the sexual, and how, excuse me, the word love relates to this, which is wildly important.

We'll talk about this more in the ensuing conversations, brother, but let's see if we can just, you know, fulfill our prompts and hold this particular piece now. So you and I have talked about this before in, I think, private conversation. We talked about it a little bit in one of our earlier dialogues back in the day, but there's a very critical distinction between what I would call ordinary love and outrageous love. Or, same distinction, ordinary love and evolutionary love. That's another word for outrageous love. Or ordinary love and eros. It's a critical distinction. So ordinary love is a social construction. So if you read B.F. Skinner, the behaviorist psychologist who reigned for six decades at Harvard

and who I just finished a book with, Zach Stein, detailing how the innovators of the international web actually based themselves on Skinner. So the MIT Media Lab, for example, is largely patterned after Skinner intentionally, although the architects of the MIT Media Lab deny ever having read him and never cite him. But if you read them carefully, it's very clear that they're interlocked completely. So Skinner writes a utopian novel called Walden II, about a year apart from Orwell's 1984, right? It's published, I think, in 48. They're in 47, 48, after World War II. And Skinner's very, very clear. Love is an expression of social contrivance, positive reinforcements. And when Mark Zuckerberg says in 2015, you know, he basically indicates I'm working, you know, with my math people to develop the social algorithm for human connection.

He's, in effect, expressing that Skinnerian claim that love is essentially a mechanical algorithm, which can be unpacked and contrived and commodified and packaged and sold. And in some sense, if you read beneath the surface of the Facebook or meta slogans, you actually realize there's something much more sinister underneath, right? We're going to bring the world together. And it sounds like literally, it sounds like reading Skinner's Walden too. It's these kind of utopian slogans that are actually based on the premise that love's not real. That's a big deal. Barbie, Oscars is 2024. It's up for the Oscars now. We're after the Super Bowl and before the Oscars as we're recording. It's up for Oscars and no one noticed. No one noticed that the premise of Barbie is that love's not real, that there is no Barbie

in Ken all the way up and all the way down the evolutionary chain. So love is a word I don't like so much anymore because it's become tired. It's become cliche, right? It means nothing to everyone. And yet it's our most important word, right? So as the World Trade Center is going down and people are about to jump and they call home, they say, I love you. But what they're saying is not, oh, the social contrivance of positive reinforcement is moving me in this last moment to tell you I love you because that seems to be what the mechanics, right, of the program are telling me to do right now. No. Right? We've actually recovered the cell phone recordings of many of the people who jumped in their last phone calls, those are sacred texts, right? Eternity, right? And value and the sacred ring through the texts. So when we say

I love you, what we're saying is, oh my God, I'm placing my attention on you and you're infinitely gorgeous and infinitely valuable. And the utter delight of giving to you is the greatest gift I've ever received, right? And what an insane honor, right? That just blows my entire heart open, right? To be able to be in devotion to you and to be able to have desired you and to be able to have made love to you. And now as I'm about to leave the world,

the only thing I wanna tell you is that I know that that was the most infinitely gorgeous, valuable experience. I'm so fucking insanely delighted that I was born to do that with you. I love you. And I jump. Right? That's what I love you means. So love is outrageous love. And outrageous love is the coursing of Eros through cosmos personally directed. So love is the personal direction of Eros. So when we say love, let's distinguish between love as a social contrivance, love which is what Tagore, the Bengali mystic, called

mere human sentiment. We're not talking about love as a mere human sentiment. We're talking about love as the heart of existence itself. It's outrageous love, eros, sexing. And those are deeply related, but not the same. Eros, the currency of cosmos for billions of years. That incepts cosmos and that moves through everything governed by the eros equation. Outrageous love is another word for Eros. Actually, it's actually, they're actually synonymous, but you can actually feel more directly. It's personal quality. And it's Eros, you feel the third person quality. And outrageous love, I'm loving you.

It's I love you. It's the outrageous love that's moving from me to you. It's the personal quality of Eros. Sexing, right, is the disclosure of Eros and the sexual, 12 billion years in, in which Eros explodes into the domain of the sexual, and then the sexual becomes the place that we most directly experience the nature of cosmos, the actual currency of cosmos moving through me. You know, maybe last sentence, you know, the new story of value we're trying to tell, you know, in this moment of metacrisis, in this time between worlds and time between stories, we call it cosmoerotic humanism.

And so in some sense, when you're truly sexing, you become cosmoerotic humanism in person. You become he and she. You become God and goddess. And so that's a different and larger conversation. But I think we were able to lay out here the next step. We recapitulated Eros. We looked at the relationship between the erotic and the sexual.

We began to understand how the sexual models the erotic and the sexual. We began to understand how the sexual models the erotic, why there's 12 billion years of eros before sex, how actually the tragedy, the breakdown is, and this is a good place to finish, the breakdown is when we exile the erotic into the sexual. See, and maybe this is really the last thing, if I could, to tenderly share with myself, Brother Kyle, with you and with all of us. When we exile the erotic into the sexual, then we try and fulfill all of our erotic needs through sexing.

And then the sexual breaks down under the weight of a burden that it can't bear. Because the sexual can fulfill in gorgeous ways sexing. But I have to live erotically everywhere. I have to live erotically as I'm parenting, as I'm playing with my kids, as I'm working the farm, as I'm preparing the podcast, as I'm lifting, as I'm in the supermarket exchanging, as I'm talking to the teller, right, at the bank that we described, all of those are fields of eros. They're all fields of eros.

And so if I exile the erotic into the sexual, then the sexual collapses under the weight of a burden it can't bear. What I actually need to do is I need to liberate eros, modeled by the sexual, and begin to live a fully erotic life in all of the non-sexual dimensions of my life, which then animates sexing, animates fuck, animates the sexual in a way that nothing else can. Wow. Wow. What a crazy delight. Wow. You did it. We did it. We did it. Thank you, brother. What a joy. My absolute pleasure. I love being on the receiving end of these and I'm super excited. We've got a dozen more. Oh my God. Well, I mean, just to say, it's the quality of your presence

that literally, you know, just evokes everything, which is truly and truly and truly and truly true. So thank you so much. Thank you, you, my friend. Thank you, brother. Yay. Thank you.