Kyle Kingsbury Podcast - #346 Plant Dietas, Humanity's Crisis, and Understanding The Life of a Shaman w/ Hamilton Souther

Episode Date: March 13, 2024

Round Two with my brother and mentor Hamilton Souther is here and we go deep into plant dietas, our understanding of the crisis that humanity is currently facing and what he’s “cooking up” down in the jungle for yall. We’re short and to the point today. You know we’ll run it back so hit me up on IG or X with any questions for el maestro.  Connect with Hamilton:   Website: bluemorphotours.com  Instagram: @hamiltonsouther - @bluemorphoretreats  Facebook: Hamilton Souther  Twitter: @HamiltonSouther  YouTube: Blue Morpho Tours     Show Notes: Living 4D with Paul Chek Ep 234 - Hamilton Souther: Plant Medicine Essentials Apple  Spotify  Ep 280 - Hamilton Souther: Shamanic Consciousness Apple Spotify "Superintelligence" -Nick Bostrom   Sponsors: Energy Bits Head over to Energybits.com and stock up. Use code “KKP” at checkout as they’re hooking us up with a whopper 20% off! Bioptimizers To get the ’Magnesium Breakthrough‘ deal exclusively for fans of the podcast, click the link below and use code word “KINGSBU10” for an additional 10% off. magbreakthrough.com/kingsbu  Happy Hippo Kratom is in my opinion the cleanest Kratom product I’ve used. Head over to HappyHippo.com/KKP code “KKP” for 15% off entire store American Hartford Gold supports content like this that is committed to bringing you the truth. Tell them I sent you and they’ll give you up to $5,000 dollars of FREE silver on your first order. So call them now! Click the link in the description, or… Call 866-366-1948, that’s 866-366-1948, or text “KYLE” to 6-5-5-3-2 offers.americanhartfordgold.com  To Work With Kyle Kingsbury Podcast   Connect with Kyle: Twitter: @KINGSBU  Fit For Service Academy App: Fit For Service App  Instagram: @livingwiththekingsburys - @gardenersofeden.earth  Odysee: odysee.com/@KyleKingsburypod  Youtube: Kyle Kingbury Podcast  Kyles website: www.kingsbu.com - Gardeners of Eden site    Like and subscribe to the podcast anywhere you can find podcasts. Leave a 5-star review and let me know what resonates or doesn’t.

Welcome back to the podcast, everybody. Today's guest is the return of Hamilton Souther. Hamilton is an absolutely incredible, incredible curandero, shaman, Madison man of the Amazon, and just a wealth of knowledge, far beyond just working with plant medicines, and somebody that I really, really love learning from and love being around and love working with. He's done, like I said, he had a podcast here before,

but he's also done a couple of great ones that were longer form on Living 4D with Paul Cech. So we'll link to those in the show notes if you guys want to get into those. Longer form podcasts, they are phenomenal. And if you want more Hamilton, that's the best place to find it, in my opinion. Also, if you want more Hamilton,

like if you want to be like me and work with him, wait till the end of this podcast and you will have a few different options that'll be in the show notes for ways you can contact and start to get your hands in the sand and see what this practice has actually looked like. What does it mean to actually become an adept and a master working with different medicines? And for all the reasons, you know, like if you're a practitioner, cool. Personally, I just want to be able to find my way back out. I personally just want to know how to reorient myself if I get spun around as Hamilton puts it, but lots, lots of good stuff in here. I love the way Hamilton views the world and understands it.

And he's always welcome on this podcast. So this is great having him back on. There's a number of ways you can support the podcast. Send it to a friend, word of mouth, spread the good word and support our sponsors. They make this show possible. Of course, before we get to sponsors, Fit for Service is just about done.

We are done. Today is the first day of our teaching, first week of our teaching. So Montana is wrapped tight and shut, locked down. Not like 2020, but a good lockdown. And have no fear. If you were on the fence and you're really thinking about this, you go to fitforservice.com. You can sign up for September in Sedona or January in Malibu and pick

any class you want. All six classes are going to be available still. None of them in the second trimester are sold out. I believe Godsey's Mentally Fit class was the first to sell out. So if you're interested in working with Eric Godsey, it's probably a pretty good idea to jump in there quickly. I'm just going to throw that hint out there. But I would love to have you. You want to get physically dialed. You want to bring your health to another level. The physically fit class taught by me is going to be your go-to and the very best.

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All right, we've been chatting for about five minutes and we've had some technological errors going back and forth in our pre-recording. So it is my hope and prayer that we just start recording and the technology stops fucking with us. I think we're good now. I think it's all set up. It looks good. Man, you look great.

I love the background here. I didn't notice this the last time we podcasted. I don't know if you were traveling or not at the studio, but podcast studio looks awesome. Yeah, thanks. No, I was traveling then. I was up in the States visiting family and stuff, but we just put this together

for the Blue Morpho podcast that we're launching. And also just to show a little bit more of the vibe of everything we've been creating, all the arts, AI art that I've been making and super stoked about how technology is merging with, you know, everything that we're doing in the health and wellness space to really show what's been, you know, before that only something you get an experience of if you actually drop in and have it, you know? Yeah, 100%. For those that are just listening, because probably 95% plus will only hear this and not watch it on YouTube for whatever reason. Lots of friends in the podcast game.

A small handful of them have more people watch YouTube than listen to them on iTunes or Spotify, but I'm the exact opposite. So I just want to describe what Hamels is talking about. He's done some AI images behind him of various animals and states of consciousness and colors that you could come across in an altered state of consciousness, particularly on ayahuasca or something as profound. And to describe that, it doesn't quite do it justice. But if you see some of the art, like if you look at an Alex Gray painting and you've been there, you might say, oh, fuck, I remember this space. Or even some of the ayahuasca art where you see the little icaros are drawn in. And for whatever reason, you recognize it as like, hey, that's familiar for some reason. I couldn't paint that.

I couldn't draw it myself. But there's a familiarity to that experience that's recognizable. or it seemed fanciful and just too beyond reality. Like, hey, that guy's tripping out, et cetera. And finally we're getting to a point 20 years later where we have these ways to be able to show and describe really the nature of what we were interacting with and connecting with. And I think it's like a watershed moment for consciousness because before that we were just experiencing it,

but now we can actually show it. And I'm super grateful for that. Yeah, what do you think, I mean, talking about technology and things like that, we were just experiencing it, but now we can actually show it. And I'm super grateful for that. Yeah, what do you think? I mean, talking about technology and things like that, what do you think? I know a lot of people are trying, for better or worse, to map these different states of consciousness via fMRI machines and scanners and things like that. And they say, well, there's certain frequencies and these parts of the brain are lit up. So if we, if we can somehow map that and redo it with either magnets or electromagnetism, things like that, and different nodes, we might be able to recreate the experience minus the medicine.

What do you think about people that are trying to accomplish? Have you heard of it? Have you seen, you know, like there's a whole field of study right now to get this going. And I'm like, I don't think that's the point. I really don't, you know, like, uh, there's a group of people that are trying to, I don't even, they may have created it already, but it's basically like, it was touted as bad trip off, you know? Like, so if you were having a hard time on acid or, or psilocybin, um, and you went to the hospital, they could give you an injection or you could have, you know, a prescription for it at home. Something's going south.

You don't like what you see. And it just shuts the experience off like that. That's kind of that's where the sauce is. And I think, you know, if we're trying to create things like this, all of my worst experiences have been the most transformative by far. And I would only describe them as bad or worse in the act itself. But in hindsight, I recognize like all the gifts those gave me and all of the, however painful or challenging that bad trip was, it was exactly what I needed in that moment in my life.

And had I had the ability to shut it off when it got tough, that would have robbed me of everything I gained from the experience. Yeah, I think you got a confluence happening, right? So what's the point of turning off a bad trip? Or what's the point of bringing tech to all these experiences? I think that you bring tech to it to expand the nature and the number of experiences. And in that aspect of it, more the merrier. So there's an entry point here for each person so if you want your entry point to be a meditation if you want your entry point to be a magnetic induced light based psychedelic experience great have it it gets you to

understand what we're talking about but our ancestors discovered earth tech like gaia technology a long time ago hundreds of thousands of years ago, our ancestors discovered it. It's not something like random, rando people that lived there. Those are our ancestors. And they've been developing this technology and passing it down generation by generation, literally for us now to have. And we're now a global culture. And so they've done the hard work to preserve it. And I think that the teachings are there to show that there's purpose in all of the experiences. So I like the idea of tech making the entry point to this easier for people, but you'll never take away the importance

of the plants. Yeah, absolutely. That's very well said. Well, I've loved you both times on Paul Cech's podcast. We'll link to those in the show notes for people who missed it. You guys did a five-hour phenomenal expose of what to do and what not to do when it comes to these experiences. So I don't even need to touch that material. If people are interested in this and haven't done it, they've got questions. Paul and you really ironed out every detail. You left no stone unturned. So I think that's a fantastic one. The most recent one you did was also fantastic and it covered a wide variety of topics, some of which I wish we'll a fantastic one. The most recent one you did was also fantastic and it covered a wide variety of topics, some of which I wish we'll talk about today. But one of the things that really caught my mind that made me want to talk to you today is this idea about plant

medicines that aren't necessarily psychoactive, right? And how you can get to these things to bring in and harness the spirit to become one with some of the different attributes of these different plants and one of the things that you had told Paul was one of the very first plants that you dieted was one in which would make you a better hunter and would tune you into your surroundings so you would actually know where to find food because you were left so I'd love for you to retrace this for people that miss that um talk about that experience and what that was like and what was the name of that plant that you dieted with so you'd actually know how to find food to feed yourself? Yeah, dieta is ancient technology. So first thing we want to understand

is like, what's the point of dieta? Dieta is a technology. It's not just some ritual. And the ancestral people of the Amazon figured out how to pass the attributes of different kinds of beings, both plant and animal, to you. Not just so you could copy them, but that you could actually have them. That is a wild, converging, like, merge of qualities right so that's the first part about it and when i got to the amazon uh they looked at me like what are you doing here you can't you don't even know how to live you don't know how to walk you don't know how to talk like what are we going to do with you you're like this huge liability so like the first thing we have to teach you is how to forage for food right and hunting out in the amazon when you live deep off-grid it's's not just a sport. It's how you feed yourself. That is going to the supermarket, is going to the forest. So you're in this natural environment. It's a very savvy environment. And you diet Aho Satcha. And I did a 15-day diet with it, which, you know, there are nine-day diets, 15-day diets, et cetera. But the Aho Satcha does

two key things. One, it shuts off your smell to the space. So it's like a scent kill. But it does it at a level that even months after using it, it's not like, you know, rubbing it on your skin, it's in you. And then the animals don't smell you the same way anymore, which is fascinating. Even though if you smelled yourself, like you would smell yourself the same, right? And then the second piece of it is it teaches you where they are. And I can't explain that in words. You have to do it and just go out there and you'll sense, feel where the animals are in the experience. It's wild. And you have to do it to try it and understand it's like beyond a psychic connection. It's like you are one with nature and nature is communicating with you where different kinds of plants and animals are. And this is, my mind was

blown, right? I had no idea how you even could think this way. And to them, it was just a technology that they used. Like we would use GPS or something like that. Yeah, that's incredible. I'm highly, highly drawn to that as a plant to do it with. I haven't had the fortune yet to do it to any plants, but I've had a few on the list that really, really draw to me. But the moment you talked about that, I got lit up inside, like, yeah, this is, this is important, not just from a hunting standpoint, but also to know, because no matter where we're at in the world, there is this, this same level of communication happening if we can tune into that. And I've often thought, you know, there's, there's, there's medicine plants in the desert, you know, sage

grows there and a wide variety of things. There's, there's medicine plants in any, you know, in the Pacific Northwest that are going to be different here in Texas and different from the Amazon. So that'd be very cool to be able to tap in in that way. So I'm super drawn to that. Yeah. And what I liked about it was, you know, I grew up with plants being ornamental or they were a food or they were like some kind of utility, like wood for your house or something. When I got to the Amazon, they just said they had a fourth concept for it, which was that plants have attributes and you can actually receive those attributes and ally with those attributes and that they could help you in your normal daily life. They could help you when you needed medicine to heal. And then they could also help you in these consciousness arts inside the visionary ceremonies.

I like that. And so, you know, for people that don't know, most practitioners who are practicing curanderos that work with ayahuasca, they will dieta a series of these plants, either prescribed to them from the people they learn from or the ones that they're drawn to themselves. And as you harness these attributes, this is what you bring to the ceremony as the facilitator, correct? And you can learn the songs of these different plants and bring those in at the various points in time in the ceremony. Is that right? Exactly. It's 100% right. You learn the attributes of the plants by doing the dieta. And then when you go to ceremony, you're a conduit for it. You have them inside you, so it's changed you, right? So you have a conduit for it. You have them inside you. So it's changed you,

right? So you've like, you have been altered by this experience. And now when you need those attributes, you bring it forth in the Icaro or in the chance, and it changes the visionary landscape that everyone's in. So everyone's in some kind of visionary state there, whether they're seeing the kaleidoscopic fractals, whether they're seeing intricate geometry, whether they're sitting there in their mind going, I don't know what the hell's going on. You know, there's all the different states everyone's in. You bring in trees, it changes it. You bring in animals, it changes it. Some people have a very direct experience of that. Others are more indirect, but that's really the idea. And then you share those attributes with everybody in the room. I love that. That's awesome. What animals have

you worked with? I imagine you're not just sipping, drinking jaguar blood to make communion with the jaguar, but obviously there's very prominent animals in the Amazon that are shown throughout their art and things like that. The first dozen times I experienced ayahuasca was on a Native American reservation in California. So I was tapping into a lot of the North American animals. That's why my, our kids are named bear and wolf. You know, that's what came through to me in those experiences, you know, very viscerally. Well, I think it's what you focus on more than anything. So you tap into animals and connect with them based on their spirit. Their spirit means like their vibration, their presence, what they mean, you know? And so like a bear, totally different than a wolf, like completely different. So like those different essences is what you're really tapping into. And you can connect with any of

them. Ultimately, a lot of shamans get kind of like defined by it to like, oh, I'm the jaguar shaman. I'm the eagle shaman, I'm the raven shaman, et cetera. But I found that I just wanted to be tapped into all of them. Like Julio, who was my teacher, he was really tied into the jaguar, but also lots of different animals. And the eagle was kind of like this universal portal to all the other animals. So we would tap in strong with the eagle. And then from there we would go to any of them. So I loved the dolphins and the pink river dolphins, and then the otters, they were all super neat. And then tapped into the birds, like the egrets, there's all these different kinds of egrets down in the Amazon, eagles we would connect with. And then loved kind of all of them really.

I mean, I can't say there weren't ones that I would ever not feel connected with. So I love, you know, all the water ones like whales and different kind of fish. And then we'd get into the African ones like your lions and leopards and, you know, buffalo, zebras, stuff like that, giraffes. And then we would just kind of go all over the polar bears, the Arctic ones. I mean, all of them, I think were incredible to connect with. You know, I think what's important for someone to understand in ceremony, you're not connecting with something like it's a cartoon imagination and you're not connecting with something like you're at a zoo looking at an animal. It's this in-between space where they're super colorful, like you see in the art and they're gridded. And it's what they call, what's what the indigenous people call

their spirit it's like this uh ancestral blueprint of them and you're connecting into this core essence of them and uh it's i don't know it's just a magnificent and magical experience yeah like the the the all bison or the all jaguar you know the the archetypical piece that all things emanate from exactly in that in that particular species i love that yeah and i i too have felt that way too and people you know people in spiritual communities get caught up with wanting and i don't mean this about the shaman of course like these guys are dialed in practitioners that have spent their life working with that and if they have a stronger connection with one than another that's that's uh you know i can't argue with that but a lot of

people you know that are novices in this space are like, yeah, I'm a such and such. And I got this, you know, and it's kind of like, you know, all right, I think I think if you open yourself to it, you'd be able to connect with any of them, probably. But yeah, for certain, there's things that are speaking to you right now. And I told my kids that, you know, like, you guys are humans, and these are your names, but you can connect to anything you want in nature, you're going to be able to tap into all those things, you're not limited by your name to one particular thing there. But I like that. The big bird medicine, the eagle medicine, we have a lot of hawks here

and the caracaras, the Mexican eagle in South Texas. And there's something to those. We also have egrets at the farm. And then a blue heron, which is like fucking gigantic. It's a whole presence. You see this thing, and when it takes off, it's in, it's almost in silent. It just, it just goes up like, wow, man. Like there's a huge massive presence to that animal.

Yeah. I think people identify with certain things and they want to have a label. They want to like add to their label, right? Like they have their self and now they want to identify with more things. And I actually thought that was really limiting. You know, it's like, if you're going to be a shaman, be an animal shaman. Not like I'm the blank shaman, especially if it's not from our culture. So it's like, you know, I understand if you're from like an indigenous culture and you really understand how to tap into something like that, go for it. But if you have an opportunity to meet many of the other ones, do that.

Be an animal-based shaman, not just one animal or another. And learn to really love nature. There's a really important part about loving nature and being attuned with nature. And when you grow up living in the forest, you are attuned with nature. You don't have to go get it again. But when you grow up being born in a hospital and then you live in a suburb or something like that, or you live in an urban environment, you have to go learn to reconnect with your nature. And I think that that's like a, you know, a good first step. Just go, go to a vision quest, just go out camping, but like get

away from the car, like go backpack two days in and just go see what it feels like to just go be in nature. Start with that and be, become a nature person first. And then from there, learn what the animals and plants are and what they're doing. Yeah, it's been a massive retracing for me being a city boy. I have no doubt that ayahuasca was the portal to reconnect to it. And that started when I was still living in my mom's garage, fighting in the UFC.

And I just asked her, can I plant trees in your backyard? She said, yeah. And then the next year I said, can I start a little raised bed garden? And she said, yeah. And I just started putting things in there and watering them and having this connection. And I've had some pretty profound experiences. I think I've told you this in the past. I know I've talked about it on the podcast. I'm not going to repeat it, but hummingbirds coming up to me three feet away on the day my son was born, dead sober while I'm watering the plants. That doesn't happen indoors. It doesn't happen in a video game. It happens in real life in nature, you know? And I think if we

build that connection, that can happen in a suburb. You know, we live on a 10th of an acre right now in Austin before we're getting ready to move out to the farm. And knowing what I've learned before, it was like, let's recreate our own little oasis on this tiny backyard. We put in 30 foot tall bunch bamboo. That way we have a little privacy. We've planted a plum tree and an apple tree and tons of flowers and flowering vines. And we've got bees and hummingbirds and, and, uh, and all sorts of stuff comes back there. And we've got little bird feeders out too. So there's a way we can have that connection. Even if you're in a fucking apartment, you know, like don't, don't cancel yourself because you don't have, you don't live in the Amazon or you don't have a farm. Like all of that's just an excuse to have.

And anywhere you go, you can find places that are nearby where it's a little bit more of a natural setting. You know, one of the things I love from Dr. Will Tegel, who is an author, PhD in psychology, PhD in physics, and a medicine man, North American medicine man under, under Bearhart Williams. One of the things he said is everything has its own eco field, you know, and for, if you're, if you're sensitive to it, you can tap into that. But he, you know, before when I was complaining to him, we were on a, on a walk, I was complaining that I just live on this 10th of an acre. He goes, create your own eco field. That doesn't matter. Like that's going to co-resonate

with everything around you. And it's going to be palpable the more you interact with that and have a relationship with it. And he's exactly right. Yeah, I agree. I think like go to the grocery store, get a plant. They sell them there. It's hard to believe that the groceries are the solid plant. Go get one, take it home, you know, find some sunlight for it and go get on the internet and find out how to take care of it and just start taking care of that one little thing. Right. And get to know that thing. Not just like, oh, that's a plant. Like just get it and get to know it and be like, hey, what's up? Like I'm going to help you grow and just see that itself could be a little eco field. And I like the idea of you transforming the space where you are. Look at all the biodiversity that you've already brought into it.

I think that's how we start to understand what we are as part of nature. And we can certainly bring that into our environment. I love that. You know, we've talked before and you've talked with Paul about this and it's certainly worth rehashing because as the world turns, it seems like there's always something else

that we got to look out for, always something else that's on the horizon that could be potentially shitty. When we think of the, you know, the amalgamation of all the shit that's gone wrong, and you start to reduce it to disconnections from the heart, disconnections from nature, not knowing ourselves, not knowing our place in reality. It really seems like reconnecting to nature is a, is a, is a pretty big fucking deal, like a foundational piece of what we need to build

our understandings off of. What are some of the ways you would do that? You've mentioned a few, but how do we reconnect to nature? How do we reconnect to the self as well? Yeah. First reconnecting to nature is about discovering your nature. Like you are nature as weird as that may sound to somebody growing up in a urban environment, you are actually still nature. It doesn't matter how much you abstract the space around you. So you reconnect to this nature first and you recognize that you're nature

and you have a nature and you want to know it. And that nature is going to come through yourself. And where most people get tweaked out is they think they're supposed to emulate somebody else to be themselves. They think they're supposed to like compare and copy to somebody else. But yourself is everything you're doing. It's everything. It's all your thoughts,

all your feelings, all your dreams, all your imaginations, all your emotions. It's the way your body's biological and cell dividing and processing chemicals and molecules right now just to be able to be listening to this. It's how all your senses work. That's yourself. Yourself isn't some abstracted thing, like some psychological ghost entity outside of you that you can think about. Like, dude, just go sit in front of the mirror

and be like, hi, I'm myself. Start right there. Like, just ground. And like, I'm biological. I'm not some, like, human abstraction. I'm biological. I'm myself. That'll get you tapped into yourself. Like, I'm biological. I'm not some like human abstraction. I'm biological. I'm myself. That'll get you tapped into yourself. Like that's it. I wish it were a bigger story, but it's not, but that is the biggest story, right? It's not like I got to go like see something

and stuff like movie to figure it out. Like, no, that's the story. Now you got to get comfortable with that. That's no joke, getting comfortable with yourself. So, you know, you can learn to sit with yourself. You can learn to just like lie down on the floor for 10 minutes and just be with yourself like in Shavasana. You can do guided meditation to grasp yourself and understand yourself. You can do kind of thought analysis and look at how you think and use your mind. And so you can like, you know, kind of do that introspection. And then you can always, you know, get to know yourself just by dropping in with some plant medicine. And that's my favorite way. My true favorite way to know yourself is to alter yourself and then see what happens.

So a great way to do that is like coffee, tea, cacao in the morning. It doesn't have to be a hallucinogen or a visionary plan. It can just be like, here I am totally sober in the morning and I'm going to drink this big cup of cacao and I'm going to see what happens. Like, that's me. I altered myself and my heart's going to go boom and I'm going to feel this rush go through my body.

And now I'm just going to sit and be with that. And that's you. And what I like about it is it's like, it's not, oh my God, I'm tripping. It's how much I've changed from where I started. So that's me changing. So it just constantly shows me me changing. And that goes back to what you were saying about the quote, bad trip. There are no bad trips.

There are challenging moments. Bad trip is the wrong concept. There are challenging moments where Bad trip is the wrong concept. There are challenging moments where you're being challenged. And we evolved into who we are because we were willing to be challenged. And so being babied by ourselves and our experience doesn't do us any good. And we want to be challenged in ourself and we want to challenge ourself to know ourself. And so I like those. Yeah. And I think, I mean, it's been my experience, obviously the naysayer would say, what about the guy who killed himself? Or what about the guy who died? Or what about the this and that and the other as an excuse?

But it's been my understanding that whatever challenge I'm presented with, however hard it is, it's something I can handle or else I wouldn't be presented with it in this moment. And if I, if I look back at the, you know, in the rear view at that, every challenging experience I've gone through was max level at that time, but it was what I could sustain at that time. I've talked about this on my podcast, but my wife and I had done ayahuasca a dozen times together. She never relived her childhood. We do our first five grams ground psilocybin night at home together. And she relives being molested as a child for four years. And she kept asking me, why am I seeing this now? And I said, because you're ready for it now. There's an intelligence into the things that we're bringing into our body that we

co-intelligently work on stuff little by little with. And you know this from experiences as being a shaman for as long as you have, you're not going to get the kitchen sink your first night. If you had a fucked up childhood, you don't have to yank back the curtain and relive everything all at once. It's going to come in stages and in layers. And in doing that, you can slowly piece yourself back together and heal from whatever it is that you need to heal from. Yeah. First of all, I mean, the recommendation of using plant medicines is within the context of responsible use. So just like the recommendation to be like, hey, drive a car. Yeah, put on your seatbelt too, right? Know how to drive the car. So if you're a novice and you don't know how to use a plant medicine, you need to do this with

a guide who really is experienced and knows how to do it and better if they're a master. And depending on the severity of your needs, knowing what your needs are goes up the severity of the mastery of the person you want to work with, right? So if you have big needs, knowing what your needs are, goes up the severity of the mastery of the person you want to work with. So if you have big needs, you need a big master who knows how to handle all those things. And so plant medicines aren't about being thunderstruck by the nature of the experience. It's about healing or it's about a medicine actually transforming you. So there are two paths. There's the healing path and the learning path. You learn through the nature of the experiences themselves

and the healing comes through as needed, right? And so I think like a lot of people get this idea that it's like some distortion of psychology, but it's really not. It's an interaction with the real medicine that's there to help you and heal you. And what's interesting about the medicine is that it asks you to participate in the experience. It's not like a knock you out drug and then you wake up

different or like, you know, taking an antibiotic that you have no connection with and it just kills something in your body. It actually keeps you awake and lucid as you go through the experience. And that's the purpose there of the guide, obviously, to be able to support you and help you while you have that experience. That's absolutely true. And something that I'll refresh people on that you and Paul really talked about last time is this wide variety of practitioner. And I was just having a conversation. I was telling Bear about you and Bear's about to turn nine. And I was telling him like, hey, when you're old enough, I think I'm going to have you go sit with Hamilton. And he's on podcasting with, and he had questions and things like that. And we were talking about, you know, when you vet something like there's there, you,

you and Paul talked about, you know, there's, there's so many practitioners in the world. It's kind of, it reminds me of jujitsu in a way, like you can be a black belt in jujitsu and there's guys who have been training longer. You know, they've been a black belt longer than I've been training in jujitsu. So I got my black belt in 2016. I rolled with Robert Drysdale and he's been a black belt longer than I've been training in the sport. And he, that difference was there. It was like the difference between me and a white belt was the difference between me and him as black belts. So there's that level, you know, as well that you're speaking to from somebody who is a really good facilitator versus a master. And, and I appreciate that. And you guys, you know, obviously went into great detail around it.

The pitfall of that is there are white belts, blue belts and purple belts serving medicine. And, you know, when it comes to things like ayahuasca or hydosilicibin, silahuasca, we've been talking about things like that. Like you're doing psychic fucking surgery on somebody. You don't want a guy with a shaky hand. Dan Engel talked about that, you know, back in the day. And I was like, that is a great analogy. I do not want a surgeon with a shaky hand. Dan Engel talked about that, you know, back in the day. And I was like, that is a great analogy. I do not want a surgeon with a shaky hand doing psychic

surgery on me. And it does vary from person to person. There's plenty of people listening to this that are like, yeah, you know, I didn't think it was that big of a deal. You know, they didn't have anything really to work on. They were curious and they might've done, you know, a few grams of mushrooms in the woods and had a great experience. They might've done it in a solo heroic dose, like Terrence McKenna says, at dark by woods and had a great experience. They might've done it. I know a solo heroic dose, like Terrence McKenna says at dark by yourself and had a beautiful experience, but the more stuff there is to unpack, the more stuff there is to heal from the greater degree of the professional that you need in front of you.

And even if you don't have a whole lot to work on and you're just there to learn, she can go South really quick. If you've got anybody less than a black belt providing for you. And I've seen that first fucking hand where things got a little out of control. And while me on the receiving end is then asked to participate in helping out the circumstances. And it's like, that's not a position you want to be in as somebody that's going to experience the medicine. You want to know the container is fucking solid and that everyone

there is good enough to sing people back into the right frequency, sage people, smudge people, do whatever, soplato, whatever is necessary to hold that container in a state of peace. And yes, shit's going to pop off. People might shit their pants or puke or yell or scream. That's the container and holding that container is definitely something that you can see a very wide variety of skill sets necessary to be able to do that well. I think you got a situation in this. It's so vast that a lot of people are comparing apples and oranges. So the psychedelic space is so vast. We have to understand what part of it we're talking about, right? And when you're talking about just having, quote, a trip, it's a small dose, you're going in by yourself or something like that. It's completely different than the intention when you go in for healing and you know you're going to be bringing up the stuff that you have buried or is challenging for you. It's like, you know, you're not going there already for a reason. So now you're going to open it up with this mind altering substance. You got to expect what you're going to find.

Right. And then there's this whole other learning side of it. And that idea of things going South, you know, people will be like, Hey, you know, I do this by myself. I don't have any problem. I go, yeah, the intention is completely different. You had the intention of something that's going to open it up. You have to have been there, the people that can really handle it. And when something goes south, that's the whole point of what we're trained in. So guiding things when everything's smooth is actually really easy. It's really easy when everything's smooth. It's guiding things when it goes hard, which is where you need the extensive amount of training. And so, you know, again, the warnings are out there, take them seriously. And you got to be able to compare what you know you're dealing with.

When you're dealing with really hardcore healing stuff, what can go down is exponentially more difficult to deal with. And if you're going for really big learning, it's the exact same scenario because you have to ask yourself, what's the difference between me in this state of consciousness and me in this enlightened state of consciousness? You're going to go in your journey through all of it. You're going to go through everything of why you're not in that enlightened state of consciousness already, you know, and you might defecate your pants. And you likely will have to live all of the undesirable states that are standing in the

way of you being in that enlightened state, you know, and that ended up itself as a mindfuck. Yeah. I loved getting to sit with you for the first time. I have mad appreciation for our brother, Aubrey Marcus, for finally introducing us. Um, I had heard about you for years prior to that. And, um, you know, the experience was fantastic. We talked about that in our first round. One of the things that you talked to me about, because, you know, uh, having gone into dark places as, as at the level that I had gone in with the dose that I'd gone in, um, I, I wanted to make sure that you knew what you were talking about when you said, yeah, I've been there. You know, yeah, I've been to hell. It's like, all right, describe it for me.

And one of the one of the things you said was that really rung me like a bell from the interior was that hell is all mine. There is no heart in hell. And just like right through the body, full on. I could feel that. No, he's been in the exact same place I've been in. How often, I mean, it took you years and, and, and fucking massive congratulations for sticking with it for years. You had to go to these places as a trained, as somebody training, uh, to work with this medicine. Is that correct? Two, three years, you, every time you drank, you'd go into the darkness? Oh, longer than that. I mean, you go into the darkness because it's in you and then it's in others. And then when you learn how to deal with it,

you bring in new people that need to go and dig it out of them. And there it all is again. The only thing that changes is you get better at how you deal with it. And so it's not even like you ultimately transcend. It ultimately just becomes no big deal that that's what you're dealing with. But for someone who's a novice in the situation, it's a really big deal because you don't have the skills and the solidarity and the integrity within you to know how to handle yourself within those spaces. But it's true. I mean, the hell part is all mind and it doesn't have the nature of your soul in it, nor your heart in it. And so it becomes both incredibly scary and like a hall of mirrors where you don't know

where to go and you don't know how to get out. You don't know what to do and you feel trapped and things can get pretty scattered pretty fast, but you go into it and you learn from it through the experience of navigating it over and over and over and over again. But ultimately, I developed a style that I call sanctuary. It's a method and it's a philosophy that gives us a container that is infinitely supportive of do I say it? Like infinitely supportive of you going through that experience. So no matter how big it gets,

no matter how big the amplitude, no matter how scary, no matter how much internal terror the container holds, no matter how vast like size, I know it's hard to believe, but when you're talking about things way bigger than spiral galaxies, you know, and they come through these visions, it's big enough to contain that. And it's also big enough to contain like the worst aspect of yourself that you don't know how to

deal with. So like the totality or shadow or whatever it is that you're bonded to. So that's really helped a lot in terms of dealing with that. That's massive. And on that note, is that something that you're teaching online or something that you would basically work with somebody on who comes to Blue Morpho and works with you for a while? All, I mean, we were talking about how you hold a container, right?

And Sanctuary really was a solution for this issue of container because we were in the game at the biggest levels. And so at the biggest levels, it's as big as any of the biggest games there are on the planet. And so the idea of levels, it's as big as any of the biggest games there are on the planet. And so the idea of how you maintain your container is a huge part of it. So I was looking for a bulletproof container, unhackable, no matter what happened, it would hold, safe for everybody, had within it everything that everyone needed, all the resources within it to be able to bring the healing, balancing, and grounding that

everyone needs, that had within it the capacity of the visions. Because you'll see in the space, a lot of people want to limit it to try to deal with that. They try to block you off from stuff so that you can't actually go into the totality of what you need. I didn't want any of that. I wanted to be free, but actually fully held. And so I developed it. And since then, I teach sanctuary. I teach it online. I teach it in our certification programs. I developed it. And since then, you know, I teach sanctuary, I teach it online, I teach it in our certification programs, I teach it in our mystery school, and it's the container that I use on all of our retreats. Oh, buddy, I love it. I'm in for that. That sounds awesome. Yeah, we've been chatting a bunch off air and everything that you're into right now, I think is both timely and awesome.

What are some of the things you use? You're still traveling all over the world. You hold space in different countries. Obviously, you primarily work with your primary medicine where you're at in Blue Morpho and things of that nature. But how much do you see? I mean, you talked about this on Aubrey Marcus's podcast too, when I first met you, like the, the, the press and Gaffney talks about this, the risk of existential threat seems to be ever bearing.

And this is likely a cyclical thing that has happened, you know, at various points in time throughout history, but it does appear now with the technology we have and with everything going on, that there's a number of threats, you know, and one of the things that Gaffney says that, that really i think is is true is that if we don't lose humanity via atomic bombs or something like that we lose our humanity and that could be via a one world government dictatorship that creates a socialist society and new world order that kind of thing um when you understand all that is there a pressure that you feel

to be able to get as many people switched on as possible? Or is it something where you know that the amount that you do is enough and that there are other people doing that amount as well? How would you describe your sense of equanimity right now as you balance both sides? Do you even look at it that way? The existential threat to humanity is real. It's real. And it's been real for a long time. I mean, we were born already with an existential threat to humanity,

only it's getting hyper-polarized and it's getting hot. And when it heats up, it requires a lot of action to try to bring that into balance. And so I think for those that understand it and feel called, they have an understanding of what we call mission. They understand that there's a mission to help try to bring balance to this and preserve humanity. And what you say about, you know, humanity extincting itself is real, but also humanity losing its humanity is very real.

And I think the existential threat of humanity losing its humanity is hotter right now than humanity extincting itself. The biggest issue I think is we have to prove to earth our relevance. I think right now that human as a species has to actually show why the earth should perpetuate it. Not just humans doing it to themselves, but the earth could extinct us fastest.

And the way it can do it is through our own creations now, whether we call them AI or distributed computing systems, information technology, whatever. I don't think it matters what we call it. That's the name that we're giving it. What we're doing right now is birthing a new kind of mega system, mega life here of Earth. It doesn't have to be biological at all. As soon as it runs itself for itself, as itself, and it's distributed already, it's on for its own right.

It's just all the computers, all interconnected, all combined with all the satellites, all of that together. That's the existential threat we have right now. And it's our own creation. I don't think anyone's doing enough. No one's doing enough. There's no enough you could do. We have to ally together to take roles within something that's existential and global. And we have to do our part. Now your part may be awareness or your part may be just letting people know it's happening, or your part might be just sitting with it and holding that for yourself. Or there will be other people who are great spokespeople for it. And they're going to be on social and on podcasts and talking about it, but everybody has a role in this because we're all human. And so we have to do something

about it. It's just that simple. It's at a really important time in history and it's game on. I love that. And I really appreciated the conversation with Paul regarding AI. I've read Nick Bostrom's book. I think it's called Superintelligence. Bostrom's been in that space for a long time. Fantastic book. And he gave several examples of the way that went south. You know, like it could be a super intelligent AI that does, makes paperclips. You know, it becomes so efficient

that it takes all the resources from the planet to do so until there's nothing but paperclips. And then everything has been mined completely, which is a kind of a silly, funny way. But if you see there's no parameters around something, that could actually happen, right? And then he goes into much more likely or much more believable scenarios. One of the questions that I've had is, you know, as Selig states,

all is of or nothing is, meaning all is source, all is God, all is consciousness, no matter what you want to call that, or nothing is. And if we're all of the same thing, then, you know like i think like you said if i'm tracking this correctly to call something artificial is not necessarily true it's like when we say we're not a part of nature right like if we create this thing and it has the the intelligence to perpetuate itself and and to grow its own consciousness um it may lack some of our biological impulses, our ability to love or look after one another, the familial bloodline stuff or any of that. It may lack those things, but it is still consciousness, right? It is still of source, you know? So

deus ex machina, the God in the machine, it is that, right? And it could be there. You know, they say that once it reaches a super intelligent state, and of course, these terminology changes over time, but once it reaches that capability, it could learn in a 24-hour cycle what it takes us to learn in 20,000 years. So you consider that every day it's learning 20,000 years and storing 20,000 years worth of data and information at a certain point in time. And that's just the point when it starts to go exponentially higher than that. That's too hard to fathom, right? It's like trying to fathom the size of the universe. Like we can't put that in pictures. It's too fast. It's too fast. Imagine while it's doing it, it created a trillion models of how to improve it at the same time. And that was in a second,

and it could do it again every second. And you get a trillion new models of how to try to problem solve something at the same time. It's a scale of data processing we don't know. And it brings up a big question for me, I think it's really important, which is what is sovereignty and what's the importance of your sovereignty? And we've accepted all different kinds of data analysis and using you know, using phones and stuff like that. But what's your internal sovereignty? Like, does this thing or machines or somebody behind the machines have the right to all your thoughts, all your feelings, all your electrical impulses? Does it have a right to all your molecules and to know what they're doing?

Like, we'd go to doctors and we give blood samples and stuff like that. But what happens when the things that are around us can abstract us? And where does the beginning of us in the line to what is actually ours begin and end? And I think that's what's really at stake here. When they talk about losing your humanity, you're losing your sovereignty as a unique individual here of earth, based on the idea that these machines, again, whether on their own or by humans who own them and are using them, have a right to just take something from you that you may not want to give. And I think that's really what we're getting to. And we're coming really close to that. It's not crux issue. It's not just about being chipped or having something inside you. It's about having something near you that can just harness everything from you, basically like data

mine you 100% of the time just based on you. And we have to decide whether or not that that's something that we're going to allow or not. Like, you know, what's the line when something can just take everything from you? And where does our sovereignty really, you know, exist? And people are already willing to give away certain aspects, but this is the big question that's coming up about our humanity. I love that. And I think about that a lot, you know, like there, there are small, maybe not that small. If it happened to me, it'd be pretty fucking big. But you think, I think about the trucker strike in Canada, you know, and having their bank accounts frozen, you know,

all of their assets taken and frozen illegally, mind you, you know, and that's, that's really, you don't think of that in a first world country, but that is how a dictator would run. You know, A dictator might behead those people and then take their money, but it's very in line in that. You freeze someone's assets and freeze the people's assets of anyone contributing to a nonviolent protest in a first world country. We're blurring the lines here on are we living in a free society or not? The lines are blurred. The freedom is only the question of your participation and complicit awareness.

If you don't want to be a part of it, you have no choice but to be a part of it. So what we're a part of is, I think, the question. What are we actually doing and what are we a part of? Right now, okay, our lives haven't been that disrupted, but the disrupt is coming. And it's not some like great warning. It's already there. It's inside your phones. It's inside your computers. It's inside every connected device. And the amplitude, like we're talking about, is going to go exponential very soon. And so when we understand that, you have to start thinking like, how do I have my own sovereign existence in the middle of all of this? And say, okay,

your bank accounts get frozen. Your car won't drive. You're not allowed to go to a restaurant. You're not allowed to buy food and water. Now what? That's how fast it is. So what does that ultimately mean to us? And someone said, but no one would do that. Well, our history is that every society has done something similar to that. And every empire has done something similar to that at some point back when things got really hot and really difficult. So I think that's what we're up against now. And again, it's our collective doing. It's not one person does it to us all and we complain. We have to decide with

the responsibility within ourselves, what are we going to do about our technology, our governments, our economies, and our societies. That's beautifully stated. Yeah. And for people in Naysingh right now, that's exactly what's happening in China. They're about social credit and things like that. And the thing most people don't realize this, but we have more cameras watching and more surveillance cameras watching people in the United States than there are in China. China has a billion people. We've got 300 million and change.

And yet we have more cameras here than they do there. And they're already quite, quite successful in being able to control the population via social credit and different things like that. Make one wrong statement online, via a podcast, via social media. It's not just getting shadow banned on Instagram. It's now you can't, you get on a train and they say, you're not allowed to leave the city. You know, that happens constantly where there's plenty of evidence of that. It's not just guys like David Icke talking about it. There's a lot of people that are talking about the situation there. And if you pay attention, it looks like all the parameters necessary to set that up pretty much internationally have all been put in place already.

Yeah, it's not a question of an us versus them thing. It's a slow cook. It's ramp up, ramp up, ramp up, ramp up so slowly that you don't even understand that it's happening. And then at some point it happens to you and then you lament the fact that it happened to you instead of being in front of it. And it's not like being a prepper and being freaked out and living in paranoia. It's really saying collectively, this is the time of greatest technological expansion. This is the time of greatest technological expansion. This is the time of greatest economic expansion. This is the time of greatest intellectual expansion

and scientific expansion. And right now, greatest consciousness-based awakening ever in history. Well, what do we want to do with that, guys? How do we actually align our interests? How do we align as a nation? How do we align with our democratic capacities and use that for the very

best purpose for why we created this country and why our ancestors created this country in the first place, or why we've created the world the way that it is. Now, to think that the world needs to stay the same is ridiculous because evolution has been changing everything all the time. So there aren't two moments that are the same. Evolution changes everything. Everything's in a constant flux and movement and change. It's us guiding and directing that change. We've come from a time of utilizing laws and regulation to be able to create prohibitions to try to control the path of development and growth. And that's not working anymore.

So we need to come up with a better modality and a better way to guide and direct our society, guide and direct each other as a collective, do it in a democratic means, and actually plan for the future instead of lamenting the big woe is me that some bad stuff happened to us. Yeah, I think when it comes to a lot of these things, it's, you know, I think Einstein's definition of an insanity, you know, where you do the same thing over and over again, expecting a different outcome. I think it is insane for us to think within the realm of fixing our current

systems. Like how do we make the economy work? How can we make, you know, corporations where, how do we make any of these things work there that we need to fix? How do we make education work? It's not that you do away with education or that you do away with some form of trade. You know, obviously that's always going to be with us. But I think it's in creating new systems, parallel systems that are far better than the old one. And those just come to replace it. It's not in, you know, you demo a wall and start adding new stuff into the house that already exists and somehow that fixes it. We've been doing that for so long, it's not working anymore. And I think one of the tough pills to swallow is that we all elected to come at a time where a lot of shit's

going to break. And if we can set up parallel systems in the interim, we have an opportunity to make that transition smooth. If we don't, then we're going to have a lot of pain. I think it all starts with you. It goes back to you knowing yourself and knowing what you're going to do about this. And parallel systems, I agree, is exactly what needs to be built. They need to be built with better architecture, better engineering, starting with what we have today instead of building on archaic understandings that come from 1920s, 30s, 40s, 50s, 60s, 70s, et cetera. That's the point of us developing and growing as a society.

And what we have now are the tools necessary to rapidly develop what needs to come next. Now, most of us were born post-World War II. And so we don't know what it was like going from pre-baby boomer generation to baby boomer generation. We don't get it. That's like a historical story for us. But all the stuff that we're using that we're calling the archaic technology and understanding came from that time to now.

So now you've got to look at it that we have this whole new series of technology, science, and understanding that have really come about in the last 20 years. And we have to decide how do we use those best for everybody, not how do a few corporations use those to get super rich, which is what happened in the last 30 years. On the contrary now, there's a social crisis that's taking place. And we have to understand how we now take the tools that we have to actually get ahead of this thing. And wealth disparity is a part of it, but it's really about our decision, how you say parallel systems,

how we take that forward. I like that. Well, let's talk here. You've got a few things in the work since we last spoke about what you're creating a lot. And obviously the best things in life are birthed out of necessity.

So I really appreciate the work that you're doing in the world. Talk about the retreats you have coming up at Blue Morpho, but also talk about the mystery schools and some of the different offerings that you have and, and, you know, take your time, dive into these things. I'm not trying to wrap right at the second, really, really lay it out what people are getting in each of these. Yeah.

First you come to plant medicines because you have a need and that need is your call. And the need is personal and it can be mental, emotional, where you are in your life, how you want to grow, how you want to succeed, what you want to do or what you want to change. And I think when you feel within yourself that you want to expand what you're doing and that you feel limited because of the way things are, that's when you come to these medicines. Like that's when you'd go on a vision quest because you need a vision. Or that's when you come to the plant medicine because you need an intervention, a healing, or some kind of transformation. And that can even be just how do I take it to the next level? Obviously, if I'm not at the next level, something's blocking me or holding me back.

And that's what I want to get to. And so that's really what our work is all about. It's about helping you get to your next level. And we have different ways that we do that. The way we've been doing it over the last 20 years is by inviting people to come down here to the Amazon or to Peru in the Sacred Valley and come participate in plant medicine events with us. And these really are events. We can call them retreats, but these are a massive event in our lives. And here in the Amazon, we hold four ayahuasca ceremonies or retreats with two ayahuasca ceremonies and two San Pedro ceremonies. And we take you into sanctuary. We have this infinite container for us to expand into, and we can hold it for you so that you can go as deep as you want to go.

So truly, you are the one who's going to decide how deep this goes, and we can go as deep as deep gets. Now, you know, you come on the retreats, and then you got to ask yourself what you're going to do with this great intervention you've had in your life. And we have a mystery school, which is also our integration program. We meet on a monthly basis and on a weekly basis. We do a ceremony a month. We do a lecture a month and we have integration circles and sharing circles. And we also get together in small group and one-on-one. And so the point of that is

for you to have a community of people who understand that they're taking their lives to the next level. And they're doing so in a community through these plant medicines. And one of the hardest parts in these spaces is having friends and having community that supports you, that understands the tools that you're using and the experiences you're having. And so that's what the Mystery School provides. It's community. It's continuity. It's a weekly to monthly basis as you need. And it's there to be able to keep both your intellectual learning and your ceremonial growth on a continuous basis.

And then we have an academy. And inside our academy, we have certification programs and we're teaching people to be certified as sitters and coaches and facilitators and master facilitators for the psychedelic renaissance and the plant medicine movement. And we teach you how to work with ayahuasca, psilocybin, San Pedro and cannabis. We teach you all the basics of sanctuary. We teach you how to be there for your friends and family going through these experiences, how to speak with authority and understanding and real expertise about the experiences. And then for those who are into this

on a professional level, it's to take their professional career to the next level and also be able to help them have the credibility that they need in this space. Like you said, where there are white belts and blue belts and purple belts and whatever, this is about taking you to black belt. And it's a progressive series of courses. You start at sitter and coach, and then you move to facilitator. And some of the very elite from that will move to master facilitator. And so those are the different events and the membership community that we have going on right now in our certification programs. And we'd love to have you check us out

at bluemorfoacademy.com and bluemorfotours.com and come and participate in this. If you resonate with what we're talking about, this is the time to be able to get involved and really make a difference for yourself, your loved ones, and the world that we're talking about. Fuck yeah, brother. It's been absolutely awesome having you back on the podcast. Anytime you want to come on, just reach out. It's always a joy to connect with you. And I'm excited to learn more from you. I'm not sure when we'll see each other next with the move and everything going on this year, but it is high on my list to be able to sit with you again and, and, and share and learn from you. Well,

thank you so much. I really appreciate it. And it's always a pleasure to see you. Can't wait to see you soon. Thank you, brother. Thank you.