Kyle Kingsbury Podcast - #35 Shawn Wells and Ryan Lowery

Episode Date: May 28, 2018

Shawn Wells and Ryan Lowery sit down with us to discuss all things Ketogenic diets. Ketogenic.com Zonehalo.com Check out The Ketogenic Bible Shawn Wells on Instagram and Twitter Ryan Lowery on Instagram Facebook and Twitter Kyle Kingsbury on Twitter and on Instagram Get 10% off at Onnit by going to Onnit.com/Podcast              Onnit Twitter        Onnit Instagram

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think I sleep better on the Lisa. And the truth is, it's an amazing mattress for way less money. I've got a king-size bed in my master bedroom. My son is sleeping on a twin in his bedroom, which is arguably just as good. Absolutely amazing. You get $160 off now. That's the deepest discount they've ever done at lisa.com slash on it. Our guests today are two incredibly informed gentlemen on the ketogenic diet, Sean Wells and Ryan Lowry. Ryan Lowry is a co-author of the Ketogenic Bible. He has a wealth of knowledge in all things ketogenic. A lot of people have been asking me questions about this, so I figured we'd bring a couple experts in and dive deep. Sean Wells works for

BioTrust as one of the lead chemists and engineers for creating supplements. And not a conflict of interest having another supplement guy that's savvy in the game on this show. Truly, I was blown away by what these guys are able to dive into and and really break down some of the myths that come along with keto and the ketogenic diet i think you guys are going to enjoy this thanks for listening all right on a podcast ryan lowry sean wells yes in the house and uh this is this is our first, I'm very excited today because for many reasons, some supplements that we can't mention that we'll be working on together moving forward. Keep those on the hush.

Very excited for that meeting later today, but also for this podcast because you guys are the first keto experts that I've had on. And I've been a huge proponent, a keto evangelist, if you will. And when I went on Rogan's, it was like, I got more questions on that. And I was like, I just want to talk about psychedelics with Joe. But apparently a lot of people are getting into this shit, you know, and something that completely changed my life from fighting, you know, being hit in the head as often as I had. And obviously, there's a lot of science supporting how it can help not only with systemic inflammation, but

help with cognitive function, sleep, the list goes on and on. So I'm thrilled to have you guys here sitting in front of me right now, because the world needs to know about this stuff. And our listeners in particular, you know, I do the Facebook Lives once a week, and we get more questions on keto than anything else by far. And Ryan, you're the author of the Ketogenic Bible? Yes, sir. Is that the title? There we go. So let's just jump right in. First, let's get a little origin story on you guys as individuals, what got you into this space, and then how you guys started working together. Yeah, so I'll start first. I actually was going to school as a business student, getting my marketing degree at Babson, number one business specialty school in the country.

And I was set on going that path. But then I went to a doctor and I was getting my physical. And he told me, he drew out this lifeline for me. Because I kept talking about all the supplements. And I love supplements. And I was working out. And I started using creatine. And I read this book, Optimal Sports Nutrition, Dr. Michael Colgan. And I was just super excited. And he said, he drew out this lifeline for me. Why not be happy? You know, between here and here,

you could see that I was just going to go out into the business world. And it totally changed my life path. This one doctor I went to. And so I decided to go back and get all these two years worth of prereqs on all these sciences. And then I got into Chapel Hill and got my master's in nutritional biochemistry and got my RD, registered dietitian, practiced clinically for about 10 years. But during that period of time, I decided to work with supplement companies, doing marketing write-ups, being a rep, going to Arnold, Olympia, all that kind of stuff. And I just kind of kept building my reputation on bodybuilding.com and all these places. And then I got picked up at Dymatize to be the director of R&D and helped them sell the post and did about 300 products.

We did products for Smoothie King, Advocare, GNC, Vitamin Shop. I mean, we were doing all kinds of stuff besides just Dymatize directly. I remember Brock Lesnar promoting Dymatize while in the UFC. Yeah, we saw his fight where he got smoked unfortunately um he was a diamond ties athlete at that time um but great guy and then uh and and i should say so during that period of time uh i was really good friends with dr jacob wilson uh we were very close he was was popular on bodybuilding.com and he had his own board called ABC Bodybuilding

with his brother, Gabe Wilson, both well-known PhDs in the muscle protein synthesis space. Gabe is actually with MHP now as their, what is his position? Chief Science Officer. Okay. And then I got picked up at biotrust and really helped pole vault them forward with their formulations and i'm chief science officer

there i have my own company's own halo research doing uh formulations and novel ingredients um like tea cream, dynamine, some of these ones that are out there now, several patents. And Ryan was studying under Dr. Jacob Wilson, just crushing it for his lab, and he's since become the keto preeminent ambassador. But we had similar passions just on keto, on supplements, the keto preeminent ambassador. But we had similar passions just on keto, on supplements,

and we actually speak at a lot of events together. We'll be at VidCon together. We'll be at Arnold Brazil together, KetoCon. So we run in similar circles, and I'm just a huge fan of Ryan's, so it's all good. Love it. Oh, yeah. Well, similar story. Grew up, background in athletics, played sports my entire life, and really wanted to study it. And said, how can I take this and actually do this for the rest of my life?

And played sports up until college, won a national championship at the University of Tampa, and very quickly realized there's only so far you could go in, that I could go in the sports arena. And so I said, how do I take this and combine the passions that I have of truly helping people, but studying the research and science and make this into a career. And I was very fortunate early on in my college career to meet Sean and Dr. Wilson. And they kind of took me under their wing and said, hey, this is what research is like. And it kind of opened up this entire new realm of, whoa, like this is really cool. And you can study people on like a

molecular and whole body level. And so since that time, it's just been constant studying, research, everything from exercise and training variables to nutrition and supplementation and everything in between. And we published over close to 200 papers, abstracts and book chapters at this point. And it wasn't until 2012, Sean had been talking about it for a long time, but in 2012, we met Dr. Volek. Dr. Volek and Dr. Dom DiAgostino, very good friends and colleagues of ours. And it was a presentation at the NSCA conference. And Dr. Volek was giving a presentation on ketogenic dieting and endurance athletes.

And someone in the audience stood up at the end and said, but Dr. Volek, what research is there on resistance trained individuals? And at that time, he goes, quite honestly, we don't have any. And so Jacob and I looked at each other, we're like, we have a lot of work to do. Like if we're gonna go down this path, we're gonna go down and we're gonna go down a hard. And so since 2012, it's been a pure focus of ours

of studying can athletes, can individuals resistance training gain muscle mass? Can they lose fat mass and everything in between? We're the first lab to really ever do a study looking at a ketogenic diet and resistance trained individuals and found that you were able to make some of these gains. And that led us into publishing the ketogenic Bible, where we basically talk about everything from the history to what are the different applications? Sure, endurance athletes, sure, epilepsy, which is where it started. But what are the different applications? Sure, endurance athletes,

sure, epilepsy, which is where it started, but what about traumatic brain injury? What about cancer? What about Alzheimer's? All these different areas, which more and more research is coming out on, how can we explore those? And so now we're actively, we just published that book, we're actively writing and putting out content on like ketogenic.com and authorities like that of just saying, hey, there's so much information out there that more and more people need to get that awareness. And so it's an honor to be on the podcast with you guys and an honor to be here. Hell yeah.

I'm absolutely pumped. And I remember, you know, I first got into it i think i heard damec d'agostino on uh tim ferris's podcast and uh you know with how the way he was wording it and what he was talking about and its applications for brain stuff obviously working with the navy seals and and uh seeing the applicability and crossover not just i mean obviously if it impacts children's neurochemistry in a way where it can affect drug resistant epilepsy the way that it does, maybe there's some carryover into adults and looking at, you know, rebreather oxygen problems and issues with the Navy SEALs and

taking it from there and then looking at exogenous ketones and everything from that made me want to get into it. So I kind of backtracked all of his recommendations. I read the art and science of low carbohydrate living, the art and science of low carbohydrate living the art and science of low carbohydrate performance and it's funny that you mentioned that because i remember volick like even in those books it was all on like the western states 100 and shit like that it's like i don't want to fucking look like an ultra marathoner i use ketosis to run an ultra marathon, which I'll probably never do again, 238 pounds. But, you know, like in those things, and it works, you know, there's no doubt. But I mean, it's hard to explain something like this because, first of all, everybody wants the magic bullet, you know, and everybody talks about that.

And ultimately, people want shortcuts. I mean, that's why exogenous ketones have exploded, right? And I think they can be used in the right way at many different applications to help people. But ultimately, dropping the carbohydrates is where you see the most bang for your buck, not just from how you feel cognitively and all the systemic benefits, but also how the exogenous ketones work in your body. Like there's an affinity for them then. know you really can get more out of it but i have such fucking gratitude for guys like

you that are on the front lines looking at this stuff because it's something where i get a lot of feed feedback from people on like hey man i'm i want to gain muscle i don't want to cut my protein to 80 or 100 grams a day you know there's still these old, there's a lot of dogma around that, you know, from, from the bodybuilding community and from people that think you have to have, you know, two grams per pound or whatever the case is. And it's just not, that's just not how it works in the body. Can you guys talk about a bit about the anti-catabolic chemistry behind ketones and how this can give us some of that whale room with less protein in the body? Yeah, do you want to jump on that? Yeah, for sure. And that was one of the biggest questions, right? Going into this research is,

how is it possible to gain muscle? People think you need all these carbohydrates to gain muscle. It's impossible to gain muscle without them. We actually did animal study first and then the human model. So we actually took ketones, exogenous ketones, and gave them to animals and showed that it initiated muscle protein synthesis. So ketones themselves are anabolic in nature. They're triggering muscle growth by themselves. At the same time, if you look at muscle protein breakdown, ketones spare the breakdown of important amino acids like leucine. I'm sure everyone here is listening, knows what leucine is a very important amino acid for triggering muscle growth. If you're preventing that from being broken down, potentially allowing

for more muscle protein synthesis to occur and occur longer. And so under these conditions, when you're in a state of ketosis, you're seeing not only increases in muscle protein synthesis or muscle building, but potentially preventing muscle protein breakdown. And that's exactly what we saw in our study in these individuals who were able to gain just as much muscle as these high carb athletes while on a ketogenic diet. I think that's actually like twofold because there's the improved muscle protein synthesis, but you have this leucine sparing effect that he's talking about

that there's insulin sensitivity improvements on the ketogenic diet. And when you see, if you go in the hospital, for example, and you see people that are immunocompromised or people that are justocompromised or people that are just older, they have something called sarcopenic obesity, where they're trading off tissues, right? They're trading off muscle for fat as they get older, even if they're not getting

heavier. And this is happening, I think, largely because they're becoming more and more insulin resistant. And so if you actually improve your insulin sensitivity, you lower your leucine plasma threshold needs. So let's say, you always hear like 2.5 to three grams or 3.5 grams to optimize muscle protein synthesis. That may be in a Western diet athlete. Maybe that's someone who's 30 years old eating high carbs. But someone who's on a low-carb ketogenic diet, it may be 1.5. It may be a much lower amount of leucine to trigger muscle protein synthesis and so you get this unique thing that's happening where you can actually get more muscle accretion more lean body

mass gained but have lower needs for leucine so people say oh you need you know 25 grams which would equal about two and a half grams of leucine 25 grams away but maybe it's only when you're on a ketogenic diet maybe it's only 10 like that that data needs to be done but there's some interesting things happening there that you know that could be the reason that we're seeing like this lower need for protein on the ketogenic diet but guys still gaining mass and everyone says well you need you know x grams like you're saying a protein you need all this protein you need 40 grams of protein you know bolus you need 200 300 grams a day maybe this is the reason why we're

seeing guys gain mass that you don't need that much talk a little bit about this this low-end capacity everybody it seems to come up time and again and rob wolf has kind of gone back and forth on this ultimately i think he's eating carbohydrates once per day and then going low carb and then doing a great deal of intermittent fasting you know he's in an eight hour window of eating or less maybe even a six hour window most five or six hour window um that's due to him wanting to do old man jiu jitsu and really push his body glycolytically right i've found that that as a black belt in jiu jitsu i simply don't have to work that hard unless i'm going against like a serious black belt who's my size um so i don't feel that need there uh but when it when i when it came to power lifting i would notice that in that four to six rep range no drop off at all maybe if i was if i was trying

to hit a max effort single or a double then i would feel a little drop off and there seems to be some new guys coming out like this keto gains guy uh from down in mexico city louise yeah louise where you can you can cheat the system almost with a small amount of carbohydrate pre-workout doesn't kick you out of ketosis but then you get that glycolytic blast that you need to go heavier in the workout is that something that you guys have been looking at or i mean can we dive in and break that down a little bit yeah absolutely uh people refer to that typically as like targeted ketogenic dieting where they're targeting the carbohydrates around the workout and i always look at it like this for athletes and that are implementing a ketogenic diet utilize carbohydrates as a tool

they're an ergogenic aid at that point they're they're they that's how they should be utilized and when you're getting these like luis is implementing carbohydrates around his workout the key is this when you're doing high intensity like Luis is implementing carbohydrates around his workout, the key is this, when you're doing high intensity interval training or you're doing a hard workout, the adrenaline response that you get typically blunts insulin, which is why after his workout, he's likely still in ketosis, even though he might've had 25 or 50 grams of carbohydrates because he's blunting that response and burning through it so rapidly only getting the ergogenic effect without necessarily getting the blunting of fat breakdown or the blunting of lipolysis in that regard so i think for athletes it can be a

tremendous tool a lot of athletes are utilizing like exogenous ketones to try and get something similar for the ergogenic aid it's going to be interesting we haven't compared them directly but we know a lot of athletes that are incorporating that yeah i i use it like i play a competitive sand volleyball and i do a targeted ketogenic diet first few hours if i'm out there like eight hours in a tournament in the heat you know in the sand first few hours, I'll do Gatorade or some candy, basically no fat, and just have what I want. And I feel the benefits of both being on the ketogenic diet and using glucose for fuel, dual fuel. But when I'm working out, since I'm not a competitive lifter and absolute numbers of strength don't matter. I do no carb and often fasted so I can make the adaptations. I can get the mitochondrial biogenesis

where I have more mitochondria. I want upregulated MCT transporters so I take up more BHB. I want to make these adaptations that happen over time. So I'm very keto adapted. But occasionally I will use that targeted, like Ryan said, it's a tool. Yeah, and it's important to differentiate. You guys talked about that.

And Sean talked about the differences between your workouts, when you're going to use that. People have this idea, and it's funny. My wife used to work at a running store. was a distance runner in college at nau she's working at a running store and you know people are coming in off the streets they want to get into running they got a tire around their waist and they're like how many gels should i buy like uh zero you don't fucking need them for your 2k walk jog each morning right and that's if you were consistent you still wouldn't need that you know you might not need it for your 5k you might not

ever need it right if you're in a race maybe but a good diet will give you more in glycogen than slamming power gels and little little gushers candies while you're doing that um so i think it's important to differentiate you know and then this other concept that sean brought up which was huge for me to realize when i had dr andy galpin on the show um fucking wizard that guy he was talking about this concept we're either optimizing or we're adapting and so to constantly be optimized and in this perfect state we're kind of taking stressors out of the equation so we can be at our very best and that may be fine for a podcast when i want to be cognitively optimized i'm not going to hit high intensity interval training right before this interview so i want want all my fucking nutrients. I want my spark, right?

But this idea of I can go back and forth and there should be times where I'm really stressing the body at all costs for mitochondria, for longevity, for adaptation, where now my body will actually really ramp up ketone production. And then there'll be other workouts where it's like, no, I'm going to test myself today, you know, and it's going to be a longer one. So maybe I should add a little carbohydrates or I should have a beta hydroxybutyrate and some, some other forms to really make sure that I'm tapping out and maxing everything that I have in the reserves. Yeah. So much to that. I did, uh, my second five-day water fast i remember hearing uh don d'agostino talk about that doing it that was i think the nail in the coffin for me hearing him

do a seven-day water fast deadlift 500 pounds for 10 or 15 reps pull 585 for a single and then then give a lecture to 300 plus people on the benefits of fasting and ketosis he's the man yeah absolutely so yeah you're talking about i mean just in terms of life like the hormetic response like where you you want to challenge yourself that's why like low intensity steady state you know when people just talk about cardio you're not getting that much as far as results you're just burning calories moving the body but high intensity intervalintensity interval training, like you're talking about, or pushing yourself with lifting and you're at that 90, 95, whatever,

near your max capacity, that threshold, that's where adaptation takes place and you need those stressors, right? Or else you don't get those changes in your body. And if you're always doing what you're saying like optimizing like which is what i would think like exercise is at low intensity steady state is kind of optimized like you're not exhausted you're able to maintain for a long period of time right then you're not getting changes so it makes sense exactly what you're saying yeah um it's it's it's a funny deal because like retiring from mma i didn't want like i i was sick of high intensity intervals like i'm done with

this you know like let me just do long distance running and power lifting because it's fun and you know the reps are low enough even if i'm sore it's not it's not like high volume bodybuilding training i'm not doing a 20 rep squat, shit like that. So I really was never very sore, always felt good. And then doing jujitsu, getting back into jujitsu, it's like, oh shit, I'm missing something here. You know, I still have to have muscular endurance and I still have to do the things that I don't necessarily like doing.

And then as jujitsu kind of pulled me back into that. Like, all right, I can hit some high intensity intervals on an assault bike, or I can go run hill repeats, or I can do something, but it's necessary to cover all the bases. And then in those things that I don't like doing, as I get in a better shape and the brain works,

you get that adaptation. It's like, oh, I do miss this because there is something to it in the way you feel when you hit some of these workouts that don't they aren't fun while you're doing them right right well and dealing with physiologic stress like that like heavy weights or high intensity interval training also increases your capacity to deal with life stress it's the the same to your body. Like you have a higher capacity to deal with these things. And we are in a society that we're controlling ourselves so much, like you're talking about.

Like think about like we're thermically controlled, right? All day long. All day long it's like 68 to 72 degrees. We've lost that capacity to deal with these things and now we're seeing like people do like contrasting with like you know cold showers and hot saunas and seeing the benefits to brown adipose tissue and lipolysis and you know growth hormone and heat shock proteins and all these cool things that are like happening metabolically, like when you challenge the body and again, you can deal with stress on a greater level,

wherever it may come from, just because you can deal with hot and cold. A hundred percent. Yeah. It's been a game changer for me. Another guy I picked up from Ferris and then Rogan's was Wim Hof. Yeah. There's just no doubt.

There's no doubt. I got a, I got a, I think I was telling you at this dinner we met at Sean about, and then rogan's was wim hof yeah there's just no doubt there's no doubt i gotta i gotta i think i was telling you at this uh dinner we met at sean about um getting the uh the chest freezer you get a meat freezer fill it full of water and some epsom salt and you just you only got to plug it in a few hours every other day and it stays right at 35 degrees but in that i'll never have to buy ice again you know like it's one fee up front it's energy star efficient and then i'm good to go on all my ice baths as opposed to spending 40

to 60 bucks on bags of ice and lugging that around while it's melting in my trunk you know and to throw it into a horse trough and change that water out constantly it's just a pain in the ass so i like the idea of of adding in different hormetic stressors that not only improve the way i perform but ultimately longevity right and i think the older we get even if we start in athletics these are all things we start thinking about like it all comes down to you know i want to play with my my grandkids not just my children i want to play with my grandkids right and that And that's a huge piece. It's actually something where, from an athletic standpoint, not only just overall human performance and longevity, but from an athlete perspective, we're starting something

right now called Life After the Game with a lot of our NFL athletes. And a lot of them are starting to realize kind of what you were saying is, I want to have a life after this. What happens? And everyone's seen what's gone on in the NFL and the whole concussion and traumatic brain injury, CTE concept. So a lot more becoming more and more open and aware of how do I protect my brain so that way when the time is done and I'm no longer playing, how do I do that? And we think that ketosis has a huge, huge opportunity there. So starting something around that, NFL guys are just one, but MMA is enormous, NHL athletes. A lot of these athletes want to have a life after the sport. And how do you provide that? And it's amazing to see so many more people be open to it and see there is a possibility that I can protect it and start now.

Yeah, that's a huge one. It was really something that drew me towards it, you know, because I could feel it, you know, after I had a fight like with Glover DeShera. I couldn't even find the fucking locker room. I was lost literally and didn't tell anybody because I didn't want a longer extension of how long you got to wait between fights. And so I just wandered around making small talk with people until I found the locker room. That's a shitty feeling to have.

I was concussed, didn't sleep well for a few nights. And then I would notice, I would catch myself like talking to people and just completely lose my train of thought. And I couldn't navigate back. You know, like you talk to an old timer and they're like oh what was I saying you're like oh you're on this this and this oh yeah yeah you know and then they they catch it again I couldn't catch it I couldn't get back to where it was and I'd be like well fuck it it's not important but realizing that and seeing you know some some people that I trained with that were a bit only a few years older, like really watching that decline.

It's like, fuck, this is real. You know, like it's a big deal. And, um, yeah,

I've worked with Ricky Williams and different guys from the NFL on the benefits of cannabis. And they're studying THC in the brain, clearing amyloid plaque. There's a Japanese researcher at a UCSF right now in San Francisco, studying it for Alzheimer's dementia and Parkinson's. And so it's cool to see all these different tools coming into play that can really help people because people do this I mean obviously you might NFL is a business you want to get paid when you do it

not many people sign up for you can't do it from within the app uh but um something we love right you're always going to do something you love till you can't do it anymore. You don't want to look back on that 10 years after the fact and say, what the fuck did I do? So having these tools really gives me hope and gives others hope. And the first time I got into ketosis, I thought, I feel my brain work better than it has since I was a kid.

Should I go back to school? What am I going to do with this? And just reading more, let me just read more on ketosis let me read more on diet health and wellness um well the crazy thing is going to that point is if you look kind of like your ability to recall something like someone who's older and forgets it if you look at the brains of these athletes whether it's a ufc guy an NFL athlete, their brains are resistant to taking up glucose. It's known, well-documented in the literature. After a game or after, like there needs to be some protocol drastically implemented on not only pre, during, and after these events,

but their brains cannot take up and effectively utilize glucose. And what do we do? We go and we're slugging down drinks and shakes that are filled with carbohydrates, but our brain can't take it up and utilize it. It sounds counterintuitive. And then 10 years later, we see the effects of what that does. And so if you look at the brains of some of these individuals, very similarly, you put them like side by side with someone who has Alzheimer's, you wouldn't really be able to pick out the difference in these athletes. You're starting to see early onset Alzheimer's, early onset Parkinson's in these individuals.

A lot of it due to the byproduct and the side effects of not being able to take up and utilize a fuel source immediately after their game or competition. That makes a lot of sense. Sorry, it's a condition called like insufficient cellular energy and they're glucose intolerant so uh basically the electron transport chain there's an issue in the the secondary complex of the electron transport chain and these mitochondria aren't getting fuel so there is no and and by the way like alzheimer's is is

typically now called type 3 diabetes, and it's a situation of glucose intolerance. So what you're talking about with concussions and Alzheimer's is actually very similar. And there is no scenario really that I can think of where there's a ketone intolerance issue. So that's where you have a superiority. Now, when people talk about that hate on keto, that I do great on glucose and whatever, eating carbs all day, that's awesome. But if you're diabetic, if you have metabolic syndrome,

if you have a likelihood for concussions, there's certainly data that's coming out, cancer parkinson's like ryan saying that where you might be in a state of insufficient cellular energy or you have too much glucose or insulin issues that clearly ketogenic dieting is superior for yeah and i think that's that's a massive part of our population now. Right. These aren't small fucking numbers. That's why it's so relevant. They're not small numbers.

I mean, there's even data on showing that with people with metabolic syndrome, that keto is superior to low-fat dieting without exercise. Keto without exercise is better than low-fat dieting with exercise. So you think about, like you say, like a lot of the Western population is obese, has metabolic syndrome. They might be in a place where because of their age, because of their weight, because of their abilities, that exercising is difficult, right? And so them doing keto and it being superior to kind of what we've been told is a standard low-fat diet and exercise, I mean, that gives them a much better place

to start from, hopefully, and resolve some of these conditions. Obviously, it would be superior with exercise added to the mix, but that's that's impressive that's powerful about this diet that you can have metabolic syndrome you can be overweight but you can find a way through it and that's what we're seeing that's why keto is becoming so popular and and the people that are bashing it constantly are people that are in great shape people that have high insulin sensitivity and great for them. And they usually sell a carbohydrate.

You know what I'm saying? Like fucking Lane Norton is yoked and the guy's got fucking carbs for sale. Of course, he's going to be anti. It's like, okay, you got a vested interest in keeping people buying your products. It's pretty easy to see that. Talk a little bit about metabolic flexibility because there's one thing that i've noticed you know with and and just to to chime in on the last piece like i had mentioned you guys before the podcast i train probably three or four days a

week now and i am as vascular and as lean as i was when i was fighting training two to three times a day like that that tells me something like i haven't worked out all week and not by choice just due to having to grind through work and that's okay i feel fucking phenomenal you know and i know when i go back to lifting weights this weekend like i'm not losing much there dude you look like you should be on the cast of vikings literally yes so there's there it's it's it and and from you know like i'm done i'm not a professional athlete anymore i don't need to train that often i've got a kid i've got work i've got all these things that are common issues for people like

and i can't make it to the gym for an hour or and i teach them about kettlebells i teach them about other things ways you can grease the group one of pavel's terms so you get a little bit built throughout the day but ultimately diet's number one it really is like there is no greater thing and the problem is we've been sold this lie on eat less train more right calories in calories out you know and that's there was a beautiful study that tim ferris posted in uh the four-hour body where they put everyone on a 2 000 calorie-calorie diet, groups A, B, and C. Group A was high-carb, 90% carbs. Group B was 90% protein, and Group C was 90% fat. Group A, with the carbohydrate, gained a pound a day. Group B lost, I think, close to a half a pound a day on 90% protein, and Group C lost over a pound a day on 90% fat.

There was zero comparison on who the clear-cut winner is. It's fascinating to me to see that. And then, like you were saying, Sean, with people who really can't work out, people who are in a place where a one-hour walk is going to be taxing, right? We need tools. We need places where people can go to shift their body and then eventually have control over themselves again and to have control

over food i mean how many people are like fuck i tried that keto thing and i just couldn't i couldn't kick my carb cravings and then i go back back, you know, like, well, how long did you go? Well, I mean, I went hard for a couple of weeks and it's like, oh, yeah, I didn't get through the rough spot there. You know, there's some fine tuning to that. How do you guys, how do you guys help people when it comes to being able to be effective into getting into ketosis and getting through that keto adaptation period? It's huge. It's definitely a huge point. And one of the things we've researched pretty heavily is some people like to just dip their toe in the water and they're like, I don't know about this. They feel horrible and then they cut out and they're like, nope, I felt horrible. That thing sucked. I'm out. The one thing is, like you talked about, incorporating in intermittent fasting helps tremendously, tremendously.

And we actually found during the adaptation period, even though it sucks, it's brutal. Even during that adaptation period, exercise harder, not less. Right. Because the goal is to what? To deplete muscle glycogen. So that way you start upregulating these enzymes, start increasing fat metabolism, start producing endogenous ketones, the faster you can do that, the quicker you'll adapt. So we always talk about intermittent fasting. We talk about knock out some high intensity interval training very early on,

and then supplement with electrolytes. Because you're going to, once insulin's low and you're starting to cut out these carbohydrates, you replenish with things like sodium, potassium, magnesium, calcium. These things will help you not get or experience what's commonly termed the keto flu and overcome that. So those three things help tremendously. And think about how long people have been glucogenically adapted, right? Your whole life. And then we see these studies that keto does this you know like to the gut microbiome and you know it's like oh that was one week of keto dieting like for these people that have been glucogenic for you know 30 years i mean

i'm glad that you know one of the things that they did in their studies from the outset was ketogenically adapt all their participants in all their studies, usually for at least 10 days to 14 days, right? So, I mean, that's a great start in the right direction. It would be nice if we had a study population of Inuits or something where we could look at people that have been that way all their life and then assess what their needs are for vitamins and minerals or what their needs are. With all these different scenarios, we don't know. We're always saying, here's this glucogenic person and here's what happens one week, six months in, maybe.

We don't know what the actual implications of all these things are long term well the game changes it absolutely changes and dr volick did one of the studies one of the best studies i think to date where he looked at individuals i think ben greenfield is actually a participant yeah the master study and these two or three muscle biopsies a day brutal brutal but they got they got a ton of data out of that yeah and they found that these individuals who were uh basically keto adapted for at minimum six months minimum most of them were well over a year were able to replenish glycogen which is a big concern how do i have enough glycogen to perform were able to replenish glycogen to the same extent without having carbohydrates.

They had like a shake afterwards, maybe with four grams of carbohydrates, to the same extent as Western diet adapted athletes that had 50 or 60 grams of carbohydrates. So our bodies are very adaptable and very good at recognizing, hey, I can make glycogen out of other things. I can make it out of non-essential amino acids or glycerol, which is like the backbone of fatty acids. It's very good at doing that once you're adapted. So like you said, we need these longer term studies. And clearly like Dr. Volek's data shows people like Ben who have been doing that for a very long time, the whole dynamic changes

i like looking at the animal kingdom too like it makes me think of what is our our human potential and if you look at like people are like oh keto you know those aren't good athletes and i just think like man like a cheetah seems to do all right like for speed right yeah like some of these high-end output yeah like they seem to run pretty fast they're not fastest animal on the planet right and then you know there's other things too like you look at um you know certain animals like gorillas that eat um you know just uh vegetation all day and they're jacked beyond belief so like what is this this thing like and it could be that they're highly insulin sensitive it could be that leucine you know threshold is very low for them

you know we don't know but i i love thinking about these things when people try and say you know they put things in a box like this is where we're at this is this is what our potential is no it's not yeah it's not even close i'm happy you brought up the gorilla because a lot of vegan friends of mine will bring that shit up like not enough protein on a vegan diet and they just show some fucking giant gorilla and it's like well they produce cellulose they can eat fucking anything right plant-rich they don't even have to cook it like why do you think we cook food right we absorb more beta carotene from a carrot when it's cooked than when we eat it raw. There's a reason for that.

There's a big reason for that. Cows have four fucking stomachs. We have one. There's a lot to it. Our large intestine is much smaller than our ancestors. There's so much more into that. It's fascinating fascinating it is fascinating and what's cool is that you know like some of the theories on how our brains grew quicker

were that we we figured out how to cook uh terence mckenna thinks it was mushrooms i'd love love it that's true but i don't necessarily agree with bdnf i think yeah bdnf like so we have we have this ability to take nutrient-dense foods and absorb them and if i think of things like organ meat which is loaded with the most bioavailable micronutrients on the planet i can eat organ meat once a week and be topped off for the week with vitamin a and heme iron and a lot of critical things that i need right that comes from meat you know and then fats like we have just the best fats on the planet now but but let's dive into something that i think is a a massive misnomer is this idea that if it fits your macros right like as long as i get

my you know 60 to 80 fat in it doesn't matter where it comes from um i know jimmy moore has changed his tune over time but originally when he wrote clito clarity which is a terrific how to get into ketosis he was recommending nathan's hot dogs and just fucking garbage food not grass-fed free-range animals not high quality fats talk about the difference between those two and how they can impact the body. Well, I know with me, I mean, think about it this way. Like, you know, there's paleo and primal and ancestral, and we can all argue like what that meant.

You know, there's actually some data that shows that paleo man, certain tribes were cannibals. So I don't know. Yeah, tribes that only lived on yams. Right, right. Yeah, so what is it we're we're emulating but i can tell you that 200 years ago we weren't having artificial sweeteners artificial flavors antibiotics rbgh rbst you know all these kinds of things how ultra processed food it's not only processed food anymore there's a new term called ultra processed food and all these things that were in the bags and boxes in our, in our grocery stores,

we weren't meant to eat. So I can tell you that like, that's pretty clear. Like, so eating these things that gets us back to whole food, which you're seeing like keto paleo intermittent fasting is becoming like the Holy Trinity, right? Cause it all makes sense. I mean, we can be dual fuel. We can have keto. And the argument against keto drives me insane because if you were to go back to paleo days, intermittent fasting, that would be, I'm looking for food.

I can't find it. I want to eat. I-F is the daily. If you eat, that's not guaranteed and and especially during the winter before there was like food storage and all that kind of stuff I mean they would have gone days without eating they would have been in ketosis and if they found something it most likely was an animal you know so they would have been in ketosis probably during the summer they would have been eating ketosis. Probably during the summer, they would have been eating carbs.

Cool, so they're dual fuel. But think about their carbohydrate-based diet. A lot of that stuff was raw and we're seeing things like potatoes that we think of as high glycemic. Those are resistant starches when they're cold and they're raw. So they could have still been ketogenic eating things like potatoes or roots, right?

Because they were going, you know, they were out there hunting. They were out there walking. They were out there trying to find food. And maybe they get some food and maybe it's a resistant starch and they're still in ketosis. So a lot of the time, I'm assuming maybe half the time, you know, paleo man, we were probably in ketosis. Yeah. Even the fruits that were seasonally available were way higher in fiber and way less sweet.

I think I was reading Eating on the Wild Side. They're talking about how we systematically take strains. No different than weed to make them higher in THC, right? There's 119 different bananas at one point. Now we have one banana in the world the world pretty much like we got rid of all the other bananas that weren't sweet enough and picked the best banana for our palate not for weight gain not for weight loss not for health right so what we have available today we know you wake up in the world and they're like yeah we got a corded phone i can talk to people you know

if you're if you're in your 30s or 40s and then kids now they're like yeah i got a corded phone i can talk to people you know if you're if you're in your 30s or 40s and then kids now they're like yeah i got a fucking ipad it's the norm right so this banana is what a banana is they don't think about backtracking that to maybe this stuff didn't taste as good at one point but maybe it was a lot better well to your point green bananas would have the resistant starch as well a lot of tribes will eat green plantains you know there you go so it's like they're they have they haven't lost that part right of the culture you know it's still embedded in them um you touched a little bit about metabolic flexibility and that's one of the biggest takeaways i liked in uh the keto reset diet with mark sisson

is this concept that you know because Dominic d'Agostino is like oh everyone should do this the rest of their lives you know and and being some mod Keto for the rest of their lives and I'm not sure that's the answer but at least a period of every year we should practice that right if you you know no refrigeration no shipping in bananas from Panama or durian fruit from Asia or whatever you know no refrigeration no shipping in bananas from panama or durian fruit from asia or whatever you know it's like yeah we didn't have fruits available year-round we didn't have refrigeration and canning practices to keep fucking sugary peaches available year-round so at least a portion of the year we should practice this and in doing so when we go back

to carbohydrates we'd probably tolerate them better right and i think you should actually along with that it makes sense to only eat during the light window you know the day uh day wake cycle like so you're you're following your circadian rhythm like you don't it wouldn't be natural to be eating when it's dark right yeah dr. satchin panda talk yeah exactly yeah it's massive I think he has a great app called zero app I don't know if it's his but they use a lot of his science behind it and you can actually set it's a fasting tracker so you know when you finish your last bite of food at dinner you click start you can set that to whatever your goal is

and it'll ping you when you're done with your 16 hour fast or your whatever hour fast 24 hour fast but they you can click on the science and it'll actually send you to a youtube video with him and dr ronda patrick and you can also have it set to only eating when the sun's up so it knows your time zone and when the sun goes down it'll actually track how far you ate into that darkness window that's awesome right so you can start to chip away at these things over time because it's very hard to implement all the things right at once there's a few type a's that are like i'm fucking going in and they do it right but for a lot of people it's easier to make small adjustments adjustments over time that stick and last yes right and that's the key sustainability and kind of going back to your

point with metabolic flexibility it's like i i like to look at this as like my lifestyle's changed. It's not a diet that I'm going to do for the next four weeks and just say, all right, cool, that was nice. On to something else. Like I've implemented a lifestyle, but in order to do that, I'm not going to be strict 365 days a year for the rest of my life. And I actually think there could be some downside to that. Like, so imagine you're strict for 10 months straight, unless there's therapeutic applications or trying to do something there, but you're strict 10 months straight. And then you have some birthday blowout. And first that weekend you go and you're like, you know what, I'm going to blow it out this weekend. Like you're bound to be somewhat insulin resistant at that point because the, the enzymes and processes that break down carbohydrates

are downregulated and you just blew it out on a carb feed. And that's going to, that's going to, you're going to pay the price for that. So maintaining some degree of metabolic flexibility, I think is extremely important. And one of the ways I do it is I'll do every couple of weeks, I'll do like a huge protein up. And I like doing that, like I'll taper fat down, increase carbs a bit, but all majority of it comes from protein. And like the pumps I get in the gym, it's just I can tell for me, it's kind of like what Mark alludes to is like this reset for me of going, okay, back into it. it now if i want to go and hit it hard again and go stricter on keto i can do that or maintain this more flexible zone which

i tend to do quite often yeah yeah i do ckd and tkd myself so it's what's maintainable like ketogenic dieting and targeted yeah yeah sorry i want to break down accuracy for people that are like what what did he say he did right so yeah like what ryan's saying is like what can i do for life like how is this maintainable for life i don't want to deprive myself or feel like i'm deprived for life but i think that way this is very maintainable and to ryan's point not only is it like insulin resistance but like you stop making certain enzymes that I think when people are super strict on keto and then they finally go back to having some type of carbs, like especially bread or, you know, something like that. They feel gassy and bloated and terrible. And, you know, it's kind of the self-fulfilling prophecy where like oh no like

you know i had carbs and it just destroyed me so i think it's important to just you know i have like one meal every uh two weeks or you know one or two meals where i just have whatever i want you know and it and that's maintainable and i look forward to it i don't beat myself up over it i enjoy it and then i'm back in i like that you mentioned that timeline because for me when i've done cyclical that's the way where i feel the best because some people are like every fourth day and you're like wait a minute son it might take four days just to get into ketosis like you're never you're never actually reaching the glory spot again with the frequency of carbohydrates you're eating right

especially if you're not doing high intensity intervals to really rob and deplete that glycogen exactly we actually did a study on this uh i haven't even published it yet um really no so basically we did we looked at this so what happens to these people who aren't necessarily fat adapted but go into this and go you know what i'm going to start that keto thing, but every weekend I'm just going to blow it out. And some, some actually people in this space recommend this or like, oh, screw it. Just eat, eat keto Monday through Friday, Saturday, Sunday, do whatever the hell you want. And then come back on Monday. So we're like, all right, let's study this. We actually looked at that and compared to a ketogenic diet for eight to 10 weeks, the people who ate cyclically were keto Monday through Friday

and then blew it out on the weekend. Like you said, they'd start to get into ketosis maybe Thursday, Friday, and then they'd crush pizza and cake on the weekends, come back out and they wouldn't get back into ketosis until like the following Friday. And it was just this rollercoaster where they were really never in ketosis and they were dieting. We put them on a slight calorie deficit and they both

groups lost the same amount of total weight. So on a scale, it'd be a win. Yeah, cyclical wins on a scale, but that's not what matters. What matters is body composition. The majority of what the cyclical group lost was muscle mass, very little fat mass, while the ketogenic dieting group lost primarily fat mass. Why? Well, kind of what we talked about earlier, there's a muscle preservation about being in a state of ketosis. So these people were dieting, didn't really have ketones elevated to any significant degree.

So a lot of it was wasting away. Their muscle catabolism's at an all-time high. So there does need to be some fat adaptation ahead of time. Like you said, it's not every four days you just carb up. Adapt yourself first and then have some flexibility with it, but just be conservative. Don't blow it out at a buffet every day for every weekend and then try and go back in.

But who knows if you're like a bodybuilder that's been adapted to the ketogenic diet for years and years and years maybe you could do well we don't know right honestly though i think bodybuilders bodybuilders for for every part of this conversation are the outliers right and so i talked about on rogan's was that they eat the baby diet no human's supposed to eat every fucking two hours other than babies, right? Who are growing and who have also abnormal amounts of hormone levels. So protein synthesis and insulin sensitivity, all those things are going to be maxed out

in a bodybuilder's body, thanks to modern science and also in a baby's body, because that's what we're fucking designed to do right if you don't fit in that population as a baby or a bodybuilder then it doesn't really apply you know and i think that having time in i mean really it comes down to fuel preference right so if you're if your body prefers ketones because it's been in a state of keto adaptation for 8 to 12 weeks and then you go back to having carbohydrates it's going to be easier to get back into ketosis as long as you give it that break but you're in no man's land if you're having every you know once a week or twice

a week where you're having carbohydrates you're in no man's land because you've you've robbed yourself of carbohydrates consistently which need to be fairly often right and you're not producing ketones yet adequately adequately and your body's not absorbing them adequately carbohydrates consistently which need to be fairly often right and you're not producing ketones yet adequately adequately and your body's not absorbing them adequately and it gets messier with like net carbs and you know people kind of playing around with like because some of these sugar alcohols can raise your glycemic index some of these short chain fibers that are very unique like isomalt oligosaccharides imo are very unique and you know people are kind of hovering around nutritional ketosis where if you look at like blood bhb would be

0.5 but they're never really like seeing like the magic of ketosis which is why i think intermittent fasting is more powerful than nutritional ketosis or nutritional ketogenic diet. It's incredible. Like you can be low carb and be intermittent fasted. And I think you'll get deeper into ketosis than someone who's doing a true ketogenic diet and not fasting. Because like the magic can happen like when you're deeper like let's say if you were looking at blood bhp maybe it's like 2.5

3 3.5 somewhere like in there you start getting like this cognitive clarity and people aren't experiencing that like they're they're staying in like this brain fog like i'm not getting the fat loss benefits because they're never really getting into ketosis. They're just kind of hovering in and out, in and out. They're not making adaptations. You know, they're not probably doing enough exercise to deplete glycogen like Ryan was talking about. So I think that's like when I hear someone's like just doesn't like keto, it's like they're not adapting. Like that's what I think of they're not fasting their fat's probably not high enough so they're doing gluconeogenesis

because their protein's too high and they're probably using net carbs yeah that's a big hump for people to get over is is how much fat you need you know and people joke like they'll see me make a bone broth or i'll take like one one box of kettle and fire which i love super high quality tastes great even their chicken and mushroom uses fucking lion's mane which is incredibly good for the brain yeah and then i'll throw a whole stick of carry gold or vital farms butter in there you know eight ounces of butter a couple tablespoons mctl some turmeric black pepper and sea salt and that's a meal right but and through the course of the day i'm gonna have way more fat than people think is healthy right my cholesterol looks gorgeous my vldl is tanked it's in the

single digits that's awesome like it's never looked better in my entire life you know and that comes from increasing the good fats and that's where we get full right like how am i going to get full if i'm not eating meat i can't just keep loading kale onto my plate like you're right you're right you can't just keep loading kale onto your plate like you should have a good amount of cruciferous or dark leafy greens and a handful of meat but the rest has to come from fat right it's an important piece and like you said it's a challenge for people to wrap their mind around wait a minute like oftentimes when people start and they have no direction on a ketogenic diet you'll look at it and you'll analyze hey

what are you eating and they're like well i just especially again like the bodybuilder crew, oh, well, I just cut out the rice for my chicken and vegetables. It's like, where- Chicken, breast, and asparagus. Yeah, exactly. That ain't going to do it. That's not going to do it. So like you said, it's super important to get in those high quality fats. And that's something, it's a hurdle and a leap for a lot of people. But explaining it once they understand, oh, wow, here's a lot of the benefits of what fats can do and why it's important to get a good amount of fats on it. I mean, people love avocados, people love MCTs, like getting those in are extremely important, especially when you're

on a ketogenic diet. The bodybuilder diet, I used to do that because I've always been low carb and I've been done ketogenic dieting, but I've also done the bodybuilder diet that's eating clean of having the high protein, basically low fat, low carb. And it's exactly what you're talking about, like chicken breast and broccoli or fish and fish and you know asparagus or whatever and you're eating every every few hours because you're in this like hangry state where you're you know the high carb diet makes more sense or the high fat diet makes sense because at least you're adapting to one fuel or the other you're putting yourself in like this punishing brain fog state all gluconeogenesis yeah where you're just constantly hangry and like the smallest uh changes in your in your blood glucose feel like you're hypoglycemic like you could probably

drop five or ten points and you feel like you know you're you're like in the floor in the toilet you know you're just you need to eat and i remember when i was in that state like first thing i'd wake up i was like i wanted to punch someone in the face i wanted to eat immediately if someone said 15 minutes before we can eat i would just go insane you know but now that like i'm ketogenic that's not the case like i can just you know wait till lunch yeah you get up yeah you're an hour late big deal right you're still fine right because that's because your body is constantly feeding itself right have like this mainline iv drip of energy coming in 24 7 there you go totally different ball game well we're getting low on time here

but there are a couple more questions i want to ask one you guys talked about and something that i'd first read in the keto reset diet was this polar opposite compared to what we were told initially as the research was coming out. And a lot of people would say that that long, slow fat burning mode is going to be better for getting you into ketosis because you're not going to burn through glycogen. You won't be as hungry for sugars and carbs. And then now we're like, no, no, no, wait, you want to get in quicker or you have a, uh, you go to a birthday party, drink a little too much, or you, whatever the case is or you have a you go to a birthday party you drink a little too much or you whatever the case is you have some pizza watching the fights how do i get back quicker it's not doing a four mile walk it's bust your ass deplete that glycogen and force even though

you won't read high ketones on the blood meter that day that's going to get you back quicker talk about how you guys figured that out and what you've done. Exactly. So you want to get in as quickly as possible. So I think that's where the ultimate combination, like Sean was mentioning, of this intermittent fasting is just exploded and high intensity interval training. Like you want to be able, yeah, if you're eating some pizza, watching the fight, cool, that's fine. The next day, maybe you do a longer intermittent fast and you crush some high intensity interval training and you'll be fine by the nighttime versus prolonging that effect. It's only going to similar to like when people prolong dieting, it's going to prolong the effects that come along with it. Get back in as soon as possible. Do it via intermittent fasting, high intensity interval

training, incorporating in resistance training as well. So that way the glycogen is being utilized by various muscle tissue as well. That's the way to do it. That's the way to best approach it. And that's what we found in our lab. That's amazing. And then one last question I want to leave is, is what have you guys seen with strength training group that varies? Because one of the cool things that I forget, I think it was called get serious. I forget the name of the author. He's a neuroscientist, just jacked to the gills. And, um, he was talking about the differences between like when we do long steady state cardio and we're just burning calories at that time, you end that cardio session, you're really done burning calories, not too sore. Versus you strength train, you hit some heavy weights

and you're sore around the clock. That's taking resources around the clock to rebuild. Did you see it was easier or what were the differences that you saw when you were looking at the strength train group that was in ketosis? Yeah, so we found that they were able, these guys were able to recover just as well,

the ones that were in ketosis. After 10 weeks, we found they were able to gain just as much muscle, lose significantly more in ketosis. After 10 weeks, we found they were able to gain just as much muscle, lose significantly more fat mass than their Western diet counterparts. And one of the things that we did that was unique about the study is we matched for protein intake. So 99% of studies don't. And that's the big argument that high carb advocates will say is like, oh, well, they had more protein. That's the reason why they saw the adaptation. So I said, screw that. We'll match for protein intake. And so we did, and we found those changes. Since that time, there's since been studies out of Auckland University on powerlifters

that found similar results, and two studies on CrossFit athletes who basically took CrossFit athletes and put them on a ketogenic diet either for eight or 12 weeks, saw that they were able to perform just as well, make improvements in performance as their Western diet counterparts, yet lose significantly more body fat. So it's just been replicated over and over again. When you implement kind of what we were talking about earlier, a well-formulated ketogenic diet.

And there's a big difference between what some people implement for therapeutic purposes, like epilepsy and what they're doing in the cancer realm, versus a well-formulated, getting in a good amount of fiber, getting in an adequate amount of protein, and then filling in a good chunk of that with fat. That's the well-formulated part, and that's where we're seeing these benefits come from. That's amazing. And his lab, ASPE, Applied Science Performance Institute down in Tampa, they have wing it bikes, which are just amazing. They're typically only in research labs.

But I have done that. Ben Pakulski trained at their facility. And one of his preps, that was all he did to get shredded. He didn't even do any cardio. That was just only wingate and three minutes on this bike you want to talk about high intensity interval training like you will be on the floor feeling like you're going to vomit and you talk about like uh the calorie burning like literally the next three hours i would feel like i'm on fire like my body temperature's up i don't want to eat

i'm just exhausted like it's incredible like when you really push that limit what can happen and that's how you deplete glycogen and that's what we saw in our studies is you take literally one 30 second wing gate 30 seconds of and there was i could do that for 30 seconds most people we work with the tempe lightning a lot of nfl teams they're they dread coming in to utilize this wing a bike dread it 30 seconds you can deplete muscle glycogen by like 30 to 40 percent in an instant so i imagine that's a pretty expensive unit not bad uh anywhere probably about 10 000 maybe we'll get one here yes yes it definitely fits an excellent way to fix uh a bad night out watching exactly absolutely get back in very quick absolutely it's awesome well so is your book out

right now it is and where can people grab that uh on amazon barnes and noble it's the ketogenic bible so we talk a lot about a lot of what we talked about today all in that and throw some cool recipes in there as well yeah awesome website to ketogenic.com yeah ketogenic.com basically has a ton of resources and doctors and all these different articles about traumatic brain i wrote an article there on traumatic brain injury a former athlete's perspective like what what are these individuals you know not only athletes now but like kids like kids coming up, how should we, how should we approach that? So tons of great resources. Yep.

And, uh, I'm on, uh, seanwells.com and then zonehalo.com. Zone Halo is my formulations and ingredients. And then Sean Wells is kind of a biohacking site talking about keto and supplements. I am the world's greatest formulator. So without a doubt fuck yeah that's what we got here in town brother that's awesome man thank you guys for and where where are you guys on social media people can follow you give you a holler yeah on facebook ryan lowry on instagram at ryan p lowry everyone always jokes and says it's ryan

plowry but it's just my middle initial oh my god r. Ryan P. Lowry. Yeah. And I'm at Zone Halo on everything pretty much. Twitter, Instagram, Facebook. Awesome, gentlemen. Thank you so much. We'll definitely have you guys back on. Thanks, brother. Appreciate it.

Thank you guys for listening to the On It podcast with Sean Wells and Ryan Lowry. We're for sure going to run these guys back down the road. Hope you guys enjoyed it. If you did, please leave us a five-star review. You can do it now right from your phone. You can't do it from right where the app is. You got to go back and click on the show as if you were searching for it for the very first time. But right there, you can leave

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