Kyle Kingsbury Podcast - #380 Striking Change & Discovering Self w/ Miesha Tate

Episode Date: November 14, 2024

A beautiful conversation with MMA & Strikeforce Champion Miesha Tate. Reflecting on her significant impact on women's MMA through her career in Strikeforce and UFC. Discussing what drives fighters, Misha's early influences, and her athletic background. Misha shares her journey through wrestling, her MMA career, and her perspectives on facing challenges, including a toxic relationship and battling depression. She recounts her retirement from MMA, becoming a mother, and what led her to return to the sport. Also touching up on Misha's new podcast, 'Built for Growth,' her interactions with guests like Tim Kennedy and Nick Freitas, and the importance of supporting masculinity and reconnecting with oneself. The episode concludes with insights on coping mechanisms, connecting with family, and the significance of her spiritual journey.   Connect with Miesha here: Built for Growth Podcast Instagram    Our Sponsors: - GO to MagicBag.co that is DOT CO, and use code: KKP at checkout - If there’s ONE MINERAL you should be worried about not getting enough of... it’s MAGNESIUM.  Right now for the ENTIRE month of November, BIOptimizers - the makers of Magnesium Breakthrough - are having a Black Friday BLOWOUT sale on all of their products. Head to http://www.bioptimizers.com/kingsbu now and get freebies. - Organifi.com/kkp and grab a Sunrise to Sunset kit to be covered with Red, Green and Gold, with 20% off using code KKP   Connect with Kyle: I'm back on Instagram, come say hey @kylekingsbu Twitter: @kingsbu  Fit For Service Academy App: Fit For Service App  Our Farm Initiative: @gardenersofeden.earth  Odysee: odysee.com/@KyleKingsburypod  Youtube: Kyle Kingbury Podcast  Kyle's Website: www.kingsbu.com - Gardeners of Eden site   If you enjoyed this podcast, please subscribe & leave a 5-star review with your thoughts!   We always love to hear feedback and are interested in what you want to learn. Reach out to us on social media!

Welcome to the show, everybody. Today's guest is a very special guest, Misha Tate. Misha is somebody that I've been following for a very long time through the fight career. We were fighting at the same time for some portion of mine. Also being at AKA, so many of the guys were involved with Strikeforce and Strikeforce really was what put women's MMA on the map. So they had Gina Carano and Misha and Ronda Rousey.

And really that's what gave birth to the sport in the UFC was coming from Strikeforce and seeing that all these women had talent. They could strike, they could grapple, they could submit. They were beautiful and they made it work. And it was really cool to kind of watch that transpire from the outside as an MMA fan, but I've always wanted to know what makes them tick. And, and, you know, as I mentioned on this podcast, a lot of people, a lot of fans would assume there's one particular style of person that, that ends up fighting in the UFC. And, uh, that's just not the case.

There's so many friends come from so many different backgrounds and all fight for various reasons. So it was really cool to get to hear from Misha, what drove her then and what drives her now, why she retired in 2017 and why she's made her way back now as a mother of two. And just an incredible story, a beautiful story in which she has learned and gained so much from. And she shares that with us on today's podcast. So I'm really excited to be able to share this with you guys. She also has a brand new podcast she's doing, which is incredible. She's had guests like my buddy, Tim Kennedy, Nick Freitas. She's had DJ on and some of the other great fighters. So I'm really excited for that. I'm going to be a guest

on her show coming up here later this year. So look out for that one. I'll link to a couple episodes that I love here in the show notes. So you guys can one click it and get over there, leave her a five star rating and share the show. I really want to push that and get people to tune in as much as possible. She has a beautiful mind. She's a brilliant person. And I think you guys are going to dig this podcast and you're definitely going to dig her podcast. And without further ado, Misha Tate. Welcome to the podcast, Misha. Hey, thanks for having me. I've been looking forward to this. Yeah, it's been great. Our paths have kind of crossed and gone in different directions over the years. And I've just been a fan of yours for so long. Our friend, my mutual friend,

Jade Bryce, who was a Ring Girl, huge fan of yours. And so it was really cool that she got to podcast with you. And I think she connected us I'm not certain but yeah yeah she did no she's so sweet we you know of course just like you and I had crossed paths along the way Jade and I kind of crossed paths but we actually got to sit and chat intermittently for about an hour at a signing that we were doing in Las Vegas I was happy we were seated together and I really got to know her. And then I just had a podcast released with her. What was her podcast? Untamed and Unashamed. There we go. It was a great episode, but she's such a sweetheart and really getting to know her and her past and all the stuff that she's been through. She's quite an amazing young woman. Yeah. She's family for sure.

She was the only person we knew when we moved to Austin in 2017. One person in the whole the whole town of a million. So she's been family from the start. At least it was a solid person. Absolutely. Yeah. Her little boy was born maybe like a month and a half after our first born boy. So we get to see them.

There's videos of them as little kids, just jibber jabber to each other before they could speak face to face. Lots of good memories there. Well, look, I, I, there's, there's a lot people think they know about fighters in particular, and there's a lot people don't know. And sometimes, you know, on the face value, people think that you must come from a

certain type of background or have a certain story. But the more I've interviewed fighters, the more friends that I've had that I've talked to, like people come from all walks of life, from all different avenues, and they're all drawn for different reasons. So tell me about life growing up. What were you into? Did you play sports? What got you into MMA? So I was always athletic. I was always a tomboy as a little girl. I remember, you know, kindergarten, first, second, third grade, just never wanting to wear a skirt or a dress because I wanted to be able to play like the boys. And every time my mom would put me in a dress or a skirt, she'd be like, you can't go down the slide. You can't do, you know, you can't do the,

and I was like, then this is stupid, culture. I don't want to wear it then. And I went to private school for first and second grade. And this is like a Catholic school. So you wore the Catholic, you know, girls outfit. It was like a dress or a skirt, however you kind of put the two together. And in the wintertime, it was so cold and I would just wouldn't stop complaining about the fact that I had to wear a skirt all year round. I hated it.

And finally, my mom went and petitioned for me to be able to wear the boys outfit. So I was the only girl in the school that was wearing like the, it was navy blue, I think was the only girl in the school that was wearing like the it was navy blue, I think was the color of the pants. I was wearing the pants and I was so proud. I was like, I don't even care. Like I can do everything that the boys can do. So I think that I just always had that mindset that I don't need to segregate myself like if they can do it, I can do it too. And my mom always kind of supported me in that. She never really, other than going down the slide and, you know, not showing your underwear off.

She never segregated me either. She was always like, yeah, you know, if you want to do it, you can do it. So from then on, I went to public school. No real indication that I was going to be a fighter. It wasn't something that I followed. It wasn't something that I followed. It wasn't something that I did on the streets. You know, I wasn't a troubled teenager getting, you know, in fights and, you know, could maybe look at that and be like, oh, it's predictable. I know fighters, a lot of fighters have that story. It's not mine. I think that the reason

I became a fighter, if I really dig deep and I kind of look back at my past and say, what in the world could have led me to to wrestle for one? Because I wrestled on the boys team all through high school. And then I got into fighting when I went into college. Both of those things were happenstance, kind of fell in my lap and I just wasn't afraid to give it a whirl. But by no means was I looking for fights or trying to find these contact or combat sports. But when they found me, it was like a match made in heaven and I think that, you know, growing up as a little girl, I didn't meet my biological father until I think I was maybe like 10 or something like that. And I didn't find out that my I didn't find out that my biological father even existed until I was five years old and he sent me a Christmas card and said and with a picture of him and I'll never forget because it was this black and white photo and he was like a

rock star so he's a musician he had like the electric guitar and the 80s hair you know the big fluffy bangs in the front it was like long hair and leather and I was like that's my dad you're little um you know and my mom really like struggled with like do i tell my daughter at five years old that her dad well isn't the dad that she thinks um and how to explain that to a child and what will she think um but despite all the um you know input that my mom is getting from other people like just don't tell her she's too young. She won't understand. My mom decided that the right thing to do was to be honest with me, that she had fallen in love with my dad and she got pregnant. And then he kind of just went on

to live the rock star life. And she kind of was left single mom. And yeah. So I think, look, in a long story short, or we're not just told the whole thing, right? We've got an hour. Yes. Give it to me. Let's go. Probable thing. Okay. So since I could remember, Drew was my dad and that was not my biological father, but

that was who my mom dated for two, two years, I think since birth or close to that to, um, about two and a half years old, I think. So of course, you know, I was a daddy's girl and Drew was a stay at home dad. My mom worked, she brought in the money, she did everything. And so I understand why they didn't work out because he just didn't have a high drive to provide. And it was something that my mom really felt like as I was maturing that she really needed somebody that was going to pull weight equally. So they didn't work out. But I was devastated because Drew was like

the most sweet, gentle, nurturing, loving, lay on the couch all day and let me snuggle with him kind of dad. And I was so connected to him. And when they split and then, you know, a couple years later, he got married and moved away. I mean, I was devastated. So it was around the same time that he got married and moved away or within a year or two that I found out that my biological father also wasn't present in my life. And then Rob came into my life, who is technically my

stepdad. But I call I consider him my dad. I just can't look at him any other way because he raised me since I was like three years old. And he's been there my entire life. He put, you know, put a roof over my head, really, you know, food on the table, worked hard, provided and did the best that he could. But I think in all of that, I started to develop a little bit of, what would you call it, like daddy issues, I think. You know, I started to feel a little bit rejected by some men in my life. And then my dad, who raised me, when I got to be a teenager, how old are your kids? Bear is nine and our little girl Wolf is four.

So we're about nine years away from hell. Well, when I turned 13, like, shit hit the fan. We just didn't. We came from different planets. And we just didn't see eye to eye on anything. And we didn't really speak, I would say, for a few years. Like, it was a long time. Probably 13 to 16 years old.

Our relationship was very telegious. And we just didn't agree on anything and I didn't share anything with them. And it was just hard. And so I think this complex started to form with me of like rejection of men in my life. And so I think that when you have something difficult or some kind of rejection in your life, you have two ways that you can deal with it. You can surrender to it and run from it and kind of become submissive to it. Or you can stand up, fight back, and try to overcome or become what you're missing. And so I think that when these really challenging male-dominated sports

approached me, I was kind of like, you know what? I will become what I'm missing. And I don't think that was a conscious thought at the time, but I look back at now and I say, I kind of have that oldest boy mentality of, I want to protect my mom. I want to be there for her because she always sacrificed so much for me. And, you know, if I don't have, if I can't count on a consistent relationship with the dad in my life, or if they could, you know, leave or never have been there, or, you know, we could have falling out, then I'm just like, then I'll become that. I will become the strength that I need. And I think that's where that deep-seated, like, core sensibility of myself came out and really flourished when I did things that were kind of quote-unquote masculine. Because

at that time, you've got to think, but women was very few and far between that women wrestled, and it was probably safe to say that it was even more scarce that women were fighting, because I had my first fight at the very end of 2005. That's crazy. Yeah. The timing of that, most people don't realize because the women's MMA is blown up. It erupted. You were right along with that tidal wave, first with Gina Carano and then Ronda Rousey and yourself and so many other ones really made the sport what it was because you guys had star power. You're beautiful and you're talented.

You're really talented. What was it? I, I, I find it funny. Like I wrestled in high school and I, and I, I told my son, like, if you ever want to fight pro, you need to wrestle in college. Cause that was, that was my Achilles heel go against the college level wrestler as a high school wrestler in MMA. And it's's like it's so lopsided but um i always credit wrestling for being the first thing that pushed me past my limit where i realized like oh shit maybe there

you know maybe i don't have a limit maybe i can be better and wrestling always just forced that upon me year after year and to your point there was maybe like two girls that ever wrestled against my entire high school career you know like that just wasn't wasn't seen often but you did really well right yeah I was 170 I was 170 as a freshman 89 as a sophomore than then heavyweight heavyweight so thankfully I didn't have any at heavyweight but now even though 170 even the 170 was a mismatch, you know? Yeah, yeah. No, it was tough. I got my ass kicked.

Like, it was not fun. Like, my first practice was not fun. It was really intense, and they clearly didn't want me to be there. I think they all kind of shared the same sentiment that women just don't belong. I don't even think they were bad guys. I don't think they were like, oh, we're anti-women and we hate women and we just don't want, you know, a woman around because that would be terrible. It kind of was just genuinely big thought that women could not do something like this. And she just hasn't figured out that she's not cut for this.

Like women could never hack it. She's going to get beat up and cry. You know, that's what girls do. And I feel like that was kind of the thought. And I loved it. I just loved it. I left my first day with all kinds of Matt Burns and I was sore and I'd got my butt kids, but it was the most challenging thing I had ever done in my young 15 years.

And I couldn't wait to come back the next day and try to get better. Yeah. It uniquely amongst all sports, including MMA has the ability because there's a lot of MMA gyms, you know, where you can go and you can kind of hit mids and do some jujitsu and then have some wrestling drills, but it's not like a full wrestling practice. Wrestling uniquely pushes you beyond where your limit is. Yeah. All those other practices are cute until you go to a wrestling practice and then you find where the real shit is. All right, guys, quick break to tell you about a company called magicag.co.

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yeah when did you you talked about you know getting into this stuff in college where were you at the time growing up were you in Vegas and where did you go where did you go to school so I'm from Washington State originally so I went to Franklin Pierce High School and then I went to Central Washington University for about a year and a half so it was in that first year that I discovered mixed martial arts. And I thought there's no way in hell I want to fight. That was so far off my radar. But I got talked into going to this mixed martial arts club sport by my friend Rosalia, who did karate or taekwondo or something like that. And I was reluctant, but she was like, come on, you gotta go. Like most of these guys were high school wrestlers or college wrestlers, you know, have a

great time. And I was like, all right. So I went with her and on my very first little day, I learned how to choke people. And I was like, I am in, I'm sold. But I cared nothing about the striking. I had no desire to fight. I just learned that there was something called jujitsu and I cared nothing about the striking. I had no desire to fight. I just learned that there was something called jujitsu and I was all about it, but no desire to fight. But then I got invited like later that week to an amateur event. And it was my first time really investing myself in watching mixed martial arts. And I was so taken back by the passion and the determination and the will. It was just like fuel and fire inside of a ring because back then they barely had cages. You know, it was like a lot of times boxing rings. But I loved it. And I remember

thinking and having that same feeling like if they can do it, I can do it. And then Destiny just dropped in my lap one more time. And the announcer at the end of that fight card said, hey, we're going to have an all-female fight card in three weeks. If anybody wants to sign up, make your way down. And so, of course, in all my mixed martial arts experience, walked down there and and signed up having never hit a pad or thrown a punch in my life and three weeks later had my first fight so but i was thinking but um i i went for it that's so cool you you entered mma uh with the with about the same striking background that i had in jujitsu when I got to the UFC. I was as white as a white belt could be.

And I remember looking back on my time with Big Noguera and Frank Mir as our coaches on The Ultimate Fighter. And I realized after the fact that I was so bad at jujitsu, I actually couldn't glean from them the same level of information I could have had I been going in there with them nowadays you know like I just they're just so so far past me what there's you know the striking thing for people that don't know because we've had you know I'll keep it nameless but at American Kickboxing Academy we had a lot of wrestlers coming through we got Daniel Cormier you know

to come train with Kane and be our coach we had Josh Kosciuk, John Fitch, Habib Nurburgrimanov all these great wrestlers that would come through there and other great wrestlers that were d1 national champions would come too and so they had that that ability to push themselves beyond where most people are willing to go but as soon as they got hit in the face they would that was it like i realized very quickly like you know a d1 champion comes in and he goes oh and two in his first two fights because he turns away when he's getting hit and it's like there's something else there too that you have to be willing to go through in order to have talent in mma so when

did you first come to terms with that so so it's funny when i did my first day of wrestling i was certainly taken back and i certainly, I didn't feel welcomed and I sucked and I was terrible, but I didn't feel anywhere near crying. Like I wasn't emotional in that capacity. But I'll tell you what, when I first started sparring and learning striking, every striking day, I would almost cry like clockwork after doing my sparring sessions not just because I was terrible which I was it was very flat-footed I had no head work I really didn't understand how to rotate or engage my core in any of this it was just like you know like a

bulldog trying to swim it was terrible but I would cry out of frustration. And I also think I would would get emotional because there is something deep down biologically that sucks about getting hit by a dude when you're not like equipped to deal with it. And I just I, I, I just, I almost hate to admit that, but it's very true. I think that innately, unless you, you are conditioned and you know how to do this sport, then, you know, you can take your lick and like anybody else. But the fact that I didn't know how to do it. And I just felt like I was getting literally beat up by men was very emotionally challenging for me. And it was different than wrestling because, you know, for me, the wrestling aspect didn't feel like violence, you know, like like fighting

and getting literally punched in the face and your nose bloodied and gut punched and like these things that just feel like so much harder to deal with for me mentally until I learned my skill set. And like, I have no problem sparring men now, but at the time really feeling so frustrated, um, that I didn't know how to do it. And it was very, it was a very challenging period for me. So I'm proud of myself that I didn't, I didn't give up on that, but that came back to that same tenacity that I had for wrestling. It was like, if I just keep showing up, I know I'll get better. Right. I know I'll get better. And I really want to do this. Yeah. That's incredible. Uh, I had, I'd had the same crossroads where when I had,

I was seven and oh, I took my first loss. I moved back home to the Bay to be at a Merky kickboxing Academy. And I got my ass beat every day for six months from kane and and javier pulled me aside he's like what are we doing here and i was like i'm fighting i'm trying to make it to the ufc he's like are you i was like yeah what do you mean he's like do you want to be kane's punching bag for his whole career and i was like fuck no you know but like but he made a point and then it was like oh if i don't improve i am gonna be this dude's punching bag for as long as i remain in this door because that's all i was for six months but that's what you know that was super emotional too like i wasn't getting hit i was i mean i

wasn't a woman getting hit by men but it i felt big brothered in the same way of like that what the fuck can i do here yeah you know and and that emotional for me. I've cried after Cain beat my ass many times. Oh, yeah. And I think that, yeah, it would be exactly like that. Just like little brother, big brother. Anytime that you feel like you can't defend yourself in the way that you want to, it's so frustrating. And you're trying to be good at this sport and you just suck ass. And it was really frustrating.

But I got through it. now um I love sparring and you know I still love grappling and wrestling more but but I can hang on if you need me so when did you move to Vegas your your husband was a uh MMA guy as well correct is that right so so yeah so my story from there went to losing my first fight, actually. I got my nose broken really badly. I won the first round. It was easy. Took her down.

Second round, she got me in a Moytai clinch, and I just didn't even know what that was, so I didn't know how to defend it. And this was back, you know, when amateurs had no rules like that. I'm sure you remember the good old days where amateurs were pro fights with no safety regulations. We just didn't get paid. That was the only difference, right? So, yeah, I got kneed in the face a couple times. I got my nose broken really bad.

I think that was the moment I realized, though, that I was a fighter because sustaining that kind of damage and then coming back from it and still being in a winning position by the end of the second round um let me know that i had what it takes to be a fighter i just didn't prepare right i mean anything you want to do and like well like anything you want to be good at or great at would you think that three weeks of training would get you there? You know, like three weeks of working. Like, no, like it's like the reason you were a good fighter, the reason I was a good fighter, you know, or the greatest fighters in the world is because we just show up every day and try to get a little bit better. But it's the consistency. Right. So I just knew it was a lack of preparation. So despite everybody's opinion and to everybody's dismay, because I'll tell you, after I broke my nose like that, I had two giant black eyes and are very flat nose. So I was definitely a sight to see.

And people were horrified because they were like, why in the world would a woman willingly do something like this? And I couldn't make it make sense to anybody else. But I knew that there was a calling there for me and that I had to try again. And then I had to fight at least one more time. I just had it in my mind at least one more time. I just had it in my mind, at least one more time, let me prepare properly. And if I get my aft tic again, maybe at that point,

I might've been like, okay, this isn't for me. But I did everything right and I tried. And then I won my next six fights and I turned pro and I ended up getting signed by Strikeforce. It's kind of like all in a nutshell. But I went from Central Washington University to living in Yakima. I traded at Yakima MMA. And then I moved over to Dennis Hallman's gym and I lived in a 22 foot RV with two other fighters for like two years on his property, living off of food stamps and scraping by to just pursue this dream of being

a fighter, which I honestly, Kyle, don't even know how I considered it a dream because women weren't even in the UFC yet. So like, where was I going with this? I don't know. But I just wanted to keep fighting. And I was in it like wholeheartedly. I mean, I'm kidding, like breakout training sessions at like two in the morning because I would be like, I there was this thing that happened to practice and I can't stop thinking about it. And I need to go figure out what it was or how to how to, you know, work through that. And so, yeah, I mean, that was just everything, you know know that's that's what I did and um I ended up from there moving to Sacramento where I trained with Team Alpha Male and I was with them for a few

years and um I won my championship fight there um against Marlis Coonan and then Rhonda came into the picture and snapped my arm. Might have met. Oh, man. You know, the lessons went there. And then where did I go from there? Basically, I ended up in Las Vegas around the time of The Ultimate Fighter. Season, what was that? 14?

Tough 14? Gosh, these things are running together these days. What season was yours? Eight. Season eight. So we filmed in 2008 and then did our finale, I think, in 2009. I'm trying to remember. This is so terrible.

I should know. Numbers are my worst, like, my worst thing to recall. I'm bad with names. From all the punches, I've done a lot to heal my brain, but somebody can introduce themselves to me, and five minutes later, I don't know who the fuck they are wait i recognize their face but i will not remember a name i blame all of it on either um getting punched in the face for a living or a mom brain but i never take full responsibility if i'm being completely honest um so yeah those are two great excuses though okay i should yeah 18 that was what it was ultimate fighter 18 so that was in like 20

i think women had just started fighting so 2013 2014 2013 2014 and um that let me check out vegas for the first time started to realize it was the fight capital of the world and um did you know robert fallis yeah yeah there's an old photo um it's an old photo of us right before he passed where he had gotten a brand new fanny pack and so we're comparing fanny packs uh just laughing at each other he was actually um one of my my dear friends noad lahat he traded with us at ak but lived in vegas for a long time trained at dry stills uh fallis would hold mitts for him all the time and corn yeah yeah so uh i found that Follis was living here, and I kind of knew Follis because I'd worked with him a few times

because he was at Team Quest in Portland, Oregon, and being that I was from Washington, sometimes we would cross-train there. And so I knew of Follis, but I had no idea that he had moved to Las Vegas and that he was a head coach at Extreme Couture. But when I found that out, I was like, you know, I think I want to move here. You know, I lived there already for about two months on the Ultimate Fighter,

and I kind of got used to the sunshine, you know, something that we don't really get to see in the Pacific Northwest very often. We're like, what is that gold orb in the sky? I haven't seen that in nine months. So down here waking up every day sunshine with it may be happy. And I was like, I think I could live in the desert. What an odd thought. And so, yeah, I was with Follis through the rest of my career until I had a pseudo retirement. I guess they could call it that now in 2017, I retired for about five years. And that kind of came about because I was in a really toxic relationship for about nine years. And it just got so bad that I really felt like I had nothing left to give and uh and like every time I would fight I had my identity tied into fighting right so like if you in that single night I don't know if you ever had that

did you do I mean were you like devastated after losses and stuff or were you one of those people that could kind of be like all right I'll just get better like some people have such a good attitude I did not at the time I I was like nervous breakdown like if I lost it was like the end of the world it was the end of the world and then uh pretty much any chemical I could get my hands on to halter halt to the way I was feeling would be how I'd power right out of that you know yeah so you know for me it was just like I just have to fight again. I have to take another fight. And that was the only way that I could fix it. But when I lost to Amanda, in truth, it's lucky that I even beat Holly the fight before that. Because I was already on a downward trajectory.

So I kind of had a Hail Mary submission attempt in the fifth round. Otherwise, it would have been a draw, I think, for that fight. Although people recall that as me getting my ass kicked, which still burns my cookies because it was a close fight. But anyways, in the fifth round, I got a rear naked choke, and I managed to win. But then I lost to Amanda, and then I lost to Raquel. And I remember in both fights being like, not really know, like knowing where I was,

like it was especially the last fight was like an out of body experience. It was so weird. And I was so depressed and I was contemplating if my life was still worth living, if I'm being honest, like I really went down a really dark path. And I thought I have to, I have to change something or everything, but I've got to get out of here right here right now, because I knew I didn't want to not live. I just didn't want to live like that anymore. And I was by keeping myself in that position, I knew that it would bring me closer to being, you know, with suicide. And I was like, I don't, I don't want that, but I hate myself right now. And I hate my life right now. And I don't like any of it. I'm tired of putting on a

facade. I'm tired of smiling for everybody. I'm tired of having the mask on. I'm tired of like saying all the same shit in all my interviews and just regurgitating things and putting on the front and not letting anybody in. I'm tired of isolating myself from my friends and my family and I'm just tired of not living life for myself. I don't even know who I am because all I dedicate to myself is like being a fighter. And if I win, I'm a winner. If I lose, I'm a loser. And that's all that I value that I offer. And after two losses in a row, I just feel like I had to change everything. So I did. And I retired and I was gone for about four and a half years. And I really thought I would never come back to fighting again.

But honestly, it wasn't until I left that relationship. And now I'm with Johnny, who we have two kids together. You know, Johnny fights as well, but he fights for one championship. And, you know, there was just so much healing and growth that I had to do. I had to put my big girl boots on and strap them up and get walking because I had to figure my shit out. I couldn't just sit there and be passive and let life swallow me up because that's kind of what I was doing. And I was going through the motions and none of it meant anything to me. And I had to find value again.

Like, where was I valuable and what were the things that were valuable to me? And it was a process. I still think I'm, you know, learning stuff about myself every day and healing and learning new coping skill. You know, you mentioned earlier about, you know, substance use, abuse or use or whatnot,

or, you know, an escape. And I really feel like, and what I understand, like, do you know who Gabor Mate is? Gabor Mate. Yeah. Okay. So he's a trauma specialist. So you know who he is. I follow him almost religiously, love his work. I've read three of his books and he really made it make sense where, you know, people are using substance to try to feel good and is trying to feel good wrong. Is that inherently wrong? No, it's not.

Not inherently wrong to want to feel good. Like people should be able to feel good. But where it goes wrong is when they don't have better coping skills, like they don't know what else to do. So they turn to like the thing that could help them in the moment. So for me, it was having to learn a whole new skill set. So I'm curious then, Michael, I have a question for you. So getting clean, if that proper to say, or not using like any more substance, other things. I use good drugs. That's the way that I'll word that. So I can't help use bad drugs anymore. Good. A little diluting here and there. So I can't help you as bad drugs anymore. Um, yeah, I mean, exactly.

Yeah. Plant medicines really helped me. You know, I'm sure you've, you've seen wheat TV for, he was a cut man in strike force. He was my boxing coach. He passed away maybe four or five years ago, but we too was, uh, he was a medicine man, a mestizo. He'd bring us out for the sweat lodge and different things as a reservation and eventually worked with us with plant medicines and so like that just gave me such a different trajectory um and different

different coping mechanisms and you know a lot of hellish scary rides too that also give me the respect and remnants that are necessary for those things so um yeah i didn't feel attached to fighting when i left it that wasn wasn't me anymore, you know? Yeah. Yeah. So did you develop, is there something you use on a daily now that is a coping skill or a, it doesn't have to be coping, but I think sometimes managing things before they become a problem is also a skill. So, so coping might imply that you deal with something after it happens, but it's kind of like preparing to deal with things so that when they happen, that you deal with something after it happens, but it's kind of like preparing to deal with things so that when they happen, that you don't have the same reaction to cope with it

in the wrong way. So I'm curious if you do anything that kind of would fit that definition. It might sound completely, you know, novice or elementary, but the thing that I probably use the most and most often is walking. If I can get outside in the sun and walk and just literally move through whatever I'm thinking about and let that, you know, especially if there's ruminating thoughts or something that I'm pissed about, if I get out of nature and walk, I can walk it off. And in that walk, I can breathe through it. All the mechanics start to open up and it just allows me to take a step out of being in the thing and see it from a different angle it's one of the ways that i process quite a bit of things so do you when you need to process

do you walk in silence or do you listen to yeah no i'm not listening to audible or podcasts if i'm working on something like it's just me on the walk. You know, I might have my dog with me, but definitely no input. One more quick break to tell you guys about buy optimizers. Do you like free stuff? Well, you're in luck because buy optimizers black Friday deal starts now and they're giving away free gifts with purchase. That's right. I have an exclusive advance invite to buy optimizers black Friday deal for the entire month of November. This is their best sale of the entire year. If you're feeling stressed out or haven't been sleeping well lately, you're not alone.

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Buyoptimizers.com slash Kingsboo. I think that's really important. And I think that's where people might, they might need to know that part of it. Because I think to truly have healing, you have to be comfortable being alone with yourself. And you're constantly making sure something is the radio, music, your podcast, TV, conversation, call somebody. If you can't spend 10 minutes alone with your thoughts, you might need to do some digger deeping and unpacking why that is a little bit at a time in going for a walk and just being alone with yourself. I think in being able to like get to

know yourself, ask yourself really hard questions so you can find out the answers to it. I think it really is important. And I agree. I use a lot of mindful moments. So I'll do things like mindful meals. I'll sit down. I'll actually put my butt in a seat because like as a busy mom, I know so many moms who just inhale their food as they go and have like all kinds of digestive issues and problems. And, you know, extra dads do this too. But like for the longest time, like I never sat down to eat. It would always be on the run. And now that's kind of like a moment for me to sit down and appreciate my food and try to taste all the flavors and really engage my senses in that moment, because then I'm nowhere else but

here. And I try to now apply that to everywhere. So like in this conversation, it's like be where my feet are. Be right here with you. Don't be thinking about laundry I've got to do or the next meeting or, you know, what type. Like, no, here in this moment, being present is really, I think it's powerful. And I think that is a skill set in itself because sometimes we start catastrophizing. We're so far in the future about shit that may or may not happen that when you don't know how to be right here right now, it can get really stressful. Right. So, like, I feel like focusing on what you can control, taking those present moments, um, it can be life-changing. It certainly was for me. Yeah, that's incredible. It's, uh, focusing on what you can control has been probably the,

the deepest, hardest medicine for me since 2020. Like as long as I can, it took a while to fully integrate that maybe like a year and a half, um, maybe two years, but like once I started to actually settle into that and, and just focus on what's within my grasp or all, it just eased off everything. I realized it was out of my control and I just said, all right, that's out of my control. Um, and, and literally like two years to actually get good at doing that, but it is such an important one. And I think if you look around now on social media, you know, like if, if people would understand that, like, if it's out of your control, let it go. If it's in your control, focus on that.

I don't think, you know, so many people's wigs would be split about election status and, you know, just everything going on right now, it's, it's, it's pure pandemonium and I have a buddy, uh, one of my clients whose wife, you know, was really, really upset. He's probably listening to this now. And the thing I mentioned to him was, you know, in 2016, when Trump went in, when it went in and everybody thought the world was going to end in four years, the world didn't end in 2020, when Biden went in and everybody thought the world was going to end four years go by some good decisions, bad decisions, the world didn't end.

Right. So it's just like using hindsight as for or hindsight is foresight and recognizing like there's shit that's well beyond us. Let's let me let me take care of what I can take care of. I think makes a big difference. No matter who got elected, I was definitely just hoping that we focus on our our country's debt, though. That'd be nice. Let's focus on that. We can control that. Right. A little bit. So, yeah, no, I'm with you, though. That'd be nice. Let's focus on that. We can control that, right? A little bit. So, yeah. No, I'm with you, though, and all joking aside. And before we move on too far,

I meant to say this earlier when we were talking about Robert Follis. I wanted to point out the little teddy bear in the background. Do you see that little guy? So that teddy bear is made out of Follis' shirt. I'm going to grab it really quick.

Robot cannon. This is cool. So anybody who's watching um this is one of robert fallis's flannels and i think it's just so cool so i just wanted to share him because robert's such a big important part of my life still i carry with me all the time i still use his water bottles that's another thing that um was given to me so i've got this and i've got water bottle of his um which i take to every single fight. I always take a water bottle with me of his because, you know, now that he's gone, I know that he's like working down and he's always there for me,

my quarter. So I want to give him a shout out. And I know we were going to get to this. So maybe I'm jumping ahead a little bit. But the podcast that I started built for Growth was so inspired by Robert. You know, he always said to me that change is inevitable, but growth is not. I always thought that was such a powerful statement because we're going to change every day, but it's up to you to make a decision how you change. And if you're making decisions and how you change, then you're growing. If you're just letting life and situations change you passively, then you're just changing. And it could be for the better. It could be for the worse. But it's up to chance.

So when I started this podcast, Built for Growth, it was inspired by that quote from Robert and so many of the things that he taught me and inspired me along the way. And I miss him dearly. It's been a long time since he's passed away in December. I think it'll be seven years. So I miss him, miss him a lot. Yeah, I had only heard good things about him and had fun interactions with him. But, you know, he was a guy who knew everyone in the sport. And the people that were closest to him, like my friend Neo, you know, he said he was more than a coach.

He was a mentor. You know, he was somebody that was just an incredibly special human. And, yeah, it hurt not just the sport of MMA, but the world when he passed. It was a big deal. Yeah. So, anyway, thank you for letting me get that in there because I wanted to make sure. Looking back there, I was like, there's robert watching that's awesome talk a bit about and then we're we got 20 minutes left so we're not we're not super pressed for time but talk a bit about that four

and a half years off because it obviously you had to look inward you get a new relationship you become a mom during that time is that is that correct so big fucking life changes right like you go from it's i can say i'm just just talking to this about my son or with my son about, you know, the necessity of a rite of passage. And some of the girls that, you know, my nieces were in the car and they're like, we want to do that. And I was like, you're absolutely welcome to. And you guys actually have it built in.

I was talking about, you know, going from the child archetype into the mating, into, you know, the mother archetype, but you become a woman from the gift of God, right? You have your moon cycle and the red tent. And it's a big deal if we hold it as a ceremony as such to know like you now your body has shifted into becoming a woman. And there'll be a point if you choose where that you become a mother. And then there'll be a point through menopause and you become the wise woman and the elder. Right. And then it's kind of baked in the equation in the female anatomy if you follow that trajectory.

But it's not so for men. And there's a lot of boys dressed up in men's costumes, you know, and old man outfits across the world. And that caused a lot of issues. But all of that was I was happy to see that everyone was down for the rites of passage. So I'm looking forward to that for my kid. I love to hear that. I love to hear that coming from a man and from a father. Because it's so important, I think, for our girls to feel that support from the masculine side.

Not to feel ashamed for what God gifted our bodies to do. But rather be praised, cherished, and loved. And I think women were meant to be protected, cherished, loved by men. And I think that it starts with the father. I think having that strong father figure at home to tell his daughter, hey, congratulations. I'm so proud of you. You're a woman now. Like, that's amazing. So thank you for sharing that with me. And I think you're doing a great job as a dad. And I'm so proud of you. You're a woman now. Like that's amazing. So thank you for sharing that with me. And, um, I think you're doing a great job as a dad and I'm sure someday your dad is going to look back and say, I'm so grateful that my dad supported me in those ways. Oh yeah, absolutely. Well, talk, talk a bit about that four years. Cause if there's so many things,

there's blockbuster moments, right? Like those are, those are becoming a mom is, is as big of a deal as it gets. And obviously you set up your gloves not thinking you'd return. So, you know, talk a bit about that full circle and the desire to come back. Yes. So, you know, I retired, I think not because I didn't want to fight anymore, but because I had lost myself and I had to find my way back. And a big part of that for me was part of it was like being in a healthy relationship with somebody, a good masculine energy that supported me in the right

ways and wasn't controlling or taking away from the Misha, you know, wasn't taking away from me, was only adding to and realizing that I did actually want to have kids because they said for the longest time, like, I don't want to have kids. And then I thought I met Johnny and I was like, oh, I want to have your babies. Like, I definitely want to have kids. And it's so crazy how that just like clicked for me one day. But we ended up having our beautiful daughter, Amina. She's six years old. And my son, Daxton, is four years old. So during that four and a half years off, I had both of my children. And I was probably eight months pregnant with my son when I started pestering Dana to fight again.

I'm like, are you insane? I was living in Singapore. My belly was, you know, you know, way out there. And I was like, I think I'm going to fight again. And he didn't even respond. He just totally blew me off. And I kept bothering him. And, you know, he was like, we'll talk to you when you come back to the U.S. So I had my son and that's when COVID, we were in the height of all of that. So we were living in Singapore, which their government system over there is interesting. It's a benevolent, benevolent dictatorship. So kind of a soft, a pseudo dictatorship, even though it is, but it's like

they say it's not as much. So whatever that means. But I remember walking around in Singapore, like nine months pregnant with a napkin outside in like 100 percent humidity, 85 degrees, feeling like I was going to suffocate because I already have this space deep in my belly. It doesn't let me take deep breaths. And God forbid if I took my mask off because there's this ambassador is walking around that'll tattletale on you. Basically, they'll write you a you know, they'll write you a ticket or report you or whatever. So I was like, I got to get out of here. I need some space. I need to drive a car. I need to go camping. I need to be outside without a mask on. So as soon as Daxa was three months old, I was back in the U.S. And yeah, I mean, I started working out really shortly after having my son with the

intention of coming back and fighting. But I will say, you know, it took me a solid six months after having my second child to even feel like an athlete again, but didn't mean that I was like ready to fight again. So it took me probably another six months before I felt like, okay, now I'm competitive. I don't just feel athletic. I'm actually doing well in the gym again. I'm winning rounds. Like I'm ready for a fight. And so it was about a year after my second child that I had my first fight. And it was funny. I was actually still nursing him at the time. So I was just doing it all. But it was hard. It was really hard.

But it was such a way different training camp than I had ever experienced before. My children gave me so much fulfillment. And that was something that I had never experienced in my life in a training camp. I had never once in my life gone through a training camp and felt fulfilled by the end of it. Usually I felt drained and thankful that we were at the end of the tunnel so that hopefully I could find the light at the end, which would be the win. This was the first time that I was like done with the training camp. And I was like, I'm so happy. Like I'm, I feel great. I feel really feel really really good and i changed everything having kids

yeah it's well it says there's a couple things that pop into my mind first and foremost it speaks to your tranquility the fact that you could still nurse through a training camp you know like my mom lost her milk we were camping and i don't remember this story but there's there's i had a my great aunt stitched me a black bear with a red tag number seven um i was sitting on a table on a picnic table before i could crawl and this bear went right up to me a black bear and my mom panics like freaked the fuck out she fired i think a 44 magnum into the air at it and it ended up leaving so they gave me this they handmade me this stuffy but right then she just completely dried up from the panic of that experience right so so it's cool to know like you were still nursing

all through a training camp your first fight coming back you're like no big deal you click everything was still everything was still momming properly not at all like the panic bear situation with your mom because i felt right at home i. I was like, this is great. It was awesome. It was really hard to do all of it and balance that. I certainly had to lean on the people around me, you know, Johnny, my mom, like friends. Like I delegated and asked for help. And before I would never do that. You know, it was always just I would have to take and do as much as I could.

And it was still learning through that process. They still probably did more than I should and mapped myself out in ways that were overall probably not beneficial in the long run. Because old habits die hard. I still didn't know how to do it all right, but I was figuring it out. And having a family and children,

being a mom left me with so much more sustenance in a training camp, you know, but I still had a long way to go. I still had a lot to learn, but it was part of the process and I loved it. I wouldn't take it back for anything. All of it's been such a blessing and it's been so awesome to be a woman, to be a fighter, and to be a mom. Those are like my blessings on blessings. And I'm just so grateful. I really am. When I look back and I say all the blessings of my life,

all the hardships, all the things that I went through and the times that I felt misunderstood and the times that I questioned whether my life was worth living, I'm so glad I decided to take a step back so that I could collect myself and move forward to where I am today. Because when you're in that kind of darkness, I don't know if you've ever experienced this, Kyle, if you've ever been in a place where you really were kind of questioning your worth or your value or your purpose. I think a lot of people do. So I would I would guess that probably. Yeah. Yeah.

You've been in a place. Exactly. So, I mean, I think so many people go through this and I think the best advice is is change one thing, like change, change one small thing, big thing. But you've got to start moving towards what you feel like is life. You've got to move towards what you feel like is life. And for me as a God fearing woman, a big part of that is a relationship with God. I'm not talking about tithing. I'm not talking about going to church every Sunday. There are a lot of people who go to church every single Sunday and they're not good people. So people who are priests, who are preachers, who are high up in

the church that are not good people. It has to be like what happens in your heart, the authenticity of your relationship with God, which could just be at home. It could just be a prayer. It could be a prayer in the morning. It could be a prayer at night. It could be the gratitude that you have throughout the day for the sun rising. It could be really simple, but so powerful. And for me, that was a huge part of what got me out of that dark place was rekindling my relationship with God. And if you look at the word live, you spell it backwards, like that's the opposite of live, in my opinion, evil. Evil is the opposite of life. It's the opposite of living is eviling. Right. So I feel like when we, the further we get from that relationship with God, our personal relationship with God, the harder life becomes because we're more disconnected. So for me, that was a big part of my reconnecting was learning to live again and get more, walk more in the way I feel like Jesus would be proud of me to, you know, so far from perfect. But I always

say that if you feel like you're missing something in life, but saying you've got to, you know, go to church on Sunday, but maybe just try having to just say a prayer, see how it feels like, you know, like I have nothing to gain from that, but I just know how powerful it was for me. And I hope that it helps somebody, you know? Yeah. Yeah. I was in, I was in a really bad spot when my football career ended before I got an MMA. And, um, maybe we'll talk about it on your podcast, but attempted suicide, um, went through a rough spot, was in hospital for a week. And that was like the first time where I actually thought, what do I want? And I didn't know what I

wanted, but I knew what I was missing from the team in football. I was missing the camaraderie. I was missing all the guys. I was missing the meaning behind my training and I was missing being an athlete. And that's why I started training in MMA was just because I wanted the team back. I wanted camaraderie. I wanted to learn something new each day. And so that can be enough. Even if you don't know what you want to be when you grow up at any stage at 40, 50, 80, if you still don't know what you want to be when you grow up at any stage at 40, 50, 80, if you still don't know what you want to be, just think about the things that you love. The live for me was having a team. It was being around people that gave a shit about me. And so just trying to scrape that back was enough for me to claw myself out.

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Check it out. Peak Power. I think our stories are very similar. And I bet a lot of people can relate to this. For me, the living again was also reconnecting. So I got in my car with like a couple changes of clothes and I just started driving. And I didn't exactly know where I was going to go, but I was in Vegas and I just started heading west. I thought, you know, I'm going to go towards the ocean because the ocean is always a sort

of cleansing place. They feel like you can really reconnect with the power of the ocean and nature and earth, which is spiritual for me as well. Not necessarily, you don't have to define it as God or whatnot, but there is an energy to it that gives back to you. And so for me, I just was drawn. I was like, I'm going to head that way. And I took a couple of weeks where I just, I either slept in my car or I slept on the beach or I would pitch a tent like out in the, you know, the middle of wherever, like maybe not

the safest thing to do. But I just, just felt the calling to be like close to nature and whatever I felt compelled to do, I just did it. And it was really powerful. But also getting, I would call up all my old friends. I called up great aunts and uncles that I had never really spent any time with. So my grandma had passed away at the time, but she had eight younger siblings. So I called them up and was like, you know, Aunt Reedy, you know, Aunt May, Uncle Ed. I've never really sat down and had a conversation with you guys. Could we go to lunch? Could we could could we meet for dinner?

And I did that and I reconnected with so many members of my family or kind of connected for the first time and listened to their stories. I'm talking about my grandma. I felt the love and support and connection that I think I was missing. So that was a big part of it for me, too, was rekindling the relationships of the people who give a shit about you. Don't care if you're if you're famous, if you're not, if you're a world champion, if you're not, if you win, if you don't. They don't care. They'll be there the same way. Those are the kind of people that you want to keep around,

especially in moments of darkness. That's the people you should seek. Yeah, I think that it's funny to me how many... I had a total peaks and valleys career in the UFC where I had four fight win streak, two fight of the night victories, a 20 second, 26 second knockout. And then I lost four on the way out before I retired. And so ultimate highs, ultimate lows. And it is, it is funny how fickle people are when you're doing well versus when you're

not, but it is, it's so important to have family and people that you know, friends that you consider family or Ohana that don't give a fuck about that. They just love you for you. You know, it's such an important piece. Well, I know we got to get out of here. Talk about your podcast. You've done, I think, seven episodes thus far. Tell me, like, who have you had on? What have been some of your favorite conversations?

So I think one of my favorite guests, well, there's two that really come to mind and stand out. One is Tim Kennedy. He is just such an awesome, amazing man. And just anytime I get a chance to have a conversation with Tim is always a pleasure. But we talked a bit about his parenting style and Apogee. Do your kids go to Apogee? Yeah, that's right. We're starting one. We're actually in the process of becoming

an Apogee right now. Yeah. So I want to do that too. Great minds think alike. Somewhere I'm going to pick a spot someday and I'm going to open an Apogee. I'll say it right now. I'm calling it, putting my card down. Like that's what I'm going to do. Um, but, um, my daughter's first year at Apogee and she absolutely loves, it's like, she wants to go on Saturdays. She loves it. Um, so I think you guys are doing a really great thing. And the fact that Tim is the co-founder along with Matt Bedro, who was a guest for the podcast, but Matt's episode isn't released yet by the time this will be out.

Um, so keep an eye out for him, but Tim Kennedy was a great talk. Um, resiliency Matt's episode isn't released yet by the time this will be out. So keep an eye out for him. But Tim Kennedy was a great talk. Resiliency, we talked about. We talked about family. We talked about, you know, changing the world for the better, what we could do. Then I also had Nick Freitas,

who is so hilarious. I don't know. Do you follow him on Instagram? Maybe he's not like wild. He's not like wildly, probably well known, but I think he's got like wild he's not like wildly uh probably well known but i think he's got like i don't know like 400 something thousand followers or something like that or i don't know he but you know what it doesn't even matter what followers who cares

because half the people out there buy their followers i don't think he buys any followers oh we don't buy any followers either kyle no i had 3 000 followers i would be up shit creek without a paddle if i paid for the 3,000 followers. But Point Yankovic, he's a really fun follow because he's got this really sarcastic sense of humor. And he always finishes his Instagram reels with a sip from a cup of coffee, but it always says something hilarious. So he's really funny. He's a combat veteran, former Green Beret. We talked a bit about politics and really trying to understand the position that America was in because I really was just,

when we talked about it was before the election. I think we talked in October or September. And yeah, I'm just trying to like this, you know, figure it out. But oh, my favorite takeaway in that episode was when I asked him, what do men need? How can we better support masculinity? And I just feel like that is such it's not a question that's asked enough. We you know, how can we support women? How can we support femininity? How can we support transgender people?

How can we support minorities? How can we support? And I'm all for that because i want to you know i want everybody to feel like they can have the rights that court within safety and fairness so let me put that out there um for the record you know i i do not believe that biological males should compete in women's sports um i didn't let you know but i'm coming for your ass i was actually identified as a female and i'll be challenging you for the for the UFC championship

in six months I will totally fight you if you do ten rounds with Johnny first no thank you I'd rather be able to walk perfect no but you know but I do believe you know that I want people to live in America as

free happy people. So anyway, men just don't get enough support. Masculinity doesn't get enough support. It is shamed. It is, you know, toxic masculinity is tossed around all the time when we see men doing things that are masculine. You know, I don't think that masculinity is inherently bad. Just a lot of people want to take it in and say that it's bad or that there are bad things about it. And I think it just depends on how masculinity is used. If it's used for something good, it's great. If it's used for

something bad, obviously that's terrible. But I think men deserve more support. They're the backbone of our society. And I see a lot of men kind of being browbeat and conditioned societally to be submissive and less than a man because they think that's what people want or what women want. And I think women forget that we don't find that attractive. We don't want men to be like us. But I think where we misconstrue it is that we want men to understand us. So sometimes I think by that, we push them to like be like us. But we need the yin and the yang, right? We need balance and masculinity and femininity. And so I think that masculinity is basically not supported enough.

And so his answer to the question was beautiful. I also had Demetrius Johnson on, Ioanna Janjic, you know, some MMA fighters for the people out there, you know, who appreciate a little bit of fight talk. But we don't really talk about fights. It's more just like stories. I don't know if you know this stuff, but Demetrius Johnson and I grew up in the same hometown. Like we grew up in Tacoma, Washington. Oh, yeah. I remember he was from the Northwest.

Yeah. So we went to rival high schools and I remember him throughout the wrestling season. I think DJ has been smaller than me since birth. So we never wrestled each other. He's a little feller. But I do remember him because he was a standout wrestler and he was so fast and super talented. But yeah, I mean, just a lot of great talks. And, you know, Built for Growth is about truth seeking.

I'm really trying to have good, genuine conversations and learn from the people around me, draw on the experts that I have access to and the personalities and the mentalities that I can to continue to better myself. Because I think as a woman and as a person and as a mother, my ceiling becomes my children's floor. So the more that I can learn, the more people that I could talk to, I'm just elevating my children.

And so I'm very motivated to do that. But I also think that there's a lot of misinformation out there. And I think that people deserve somebody doing the right thing just because it's the right thing to do and for no other reason, you know. And so I guess that's what I'm trying to do. I'm not perfect. I'm sure I'll make mistakes. I'll probably say some dumb shit on my podcast someday. And what can I do? You know, I'm just going to own it. But but you just have to know, like, I'm I'm really genuine in this task. It's a passion project. And these people are going to bring you the best of themselves for an hour. People that I personally admire or are way smarter than me, you know, like Dr. James DeNicolantanio,

he wrote the salt fix, the fat fix. There's so many, so much misinformation out there about diet. People are still scared of salt. Don't be scared of salt. People still think we shouldn't eat meat and that it's bad for the client. I think that's a crock of shit. So, you know, I'm going to have my bias. I'm probably going to bring on people that kind of explain why I think that's a crock of shit. So, um, you know, I'm going to have my bias. I'm probably going to bring on people that kind of explain why I think that is, but, um, you know, like, Hey, we got to live life and try to make our best decisions. And that's what I'm trying to do with, with built for growth. I love that. Well, I'm so looking forward to, uh, being on the show. I'm going to link to, uh, the Tim Kennedy podcast you did and Nick Freitas in the show notes here.

So people can just scroll down and one click it and turn into your podcast. Hit subscribe if you love it, share it online, let people know you love it. And hopefully we'll get a lot of people tuning into you. No, I appreciate you so much. Hey guys, don't forget to like and subscribe and leave a comment on this podcast too, because it helps so much, right? Like people don't realize like just giving a little five star or a comment. I mean, it helps the algorithm push it out. So I can't wait to have you on my podcast. I'm really looking forward to it.

Great conversation. And yeah, I got some questions for you. So part two, basically, this is like part one and part two will happen on my podcast. And I'm going to, I'm going to drill you, but in a good way. Awesome. Well, thank you so much for coming on. And I'll be sure that we have everything. All your, all your followables will be in the show notes as well.

I really appreciate your time, Misha. Thanks.