Kyle Kingsbury Podcast - #387 Unveiling the Future of Health w/ Jay Spall

Episode Date: January 4, 2025

Jay Spall, is well-versed in performance-enhancing drugs and state-of-the-art therapies, and shares his incredible journey into biohacking, health, and wellness. They discuss innovative treatments not available in the U.S., such as stem cells and novel gene therapies like the folstatin gene therapy from Minicircle. Kyle dives into the benefits of these therapies, including enhanced recovery, muscle gain, and potential longevity benefits. They also chat about Jay's transformation from a young opioid addict to a health and wellness expert. Additionally, they share their enthusiasm for sports like pickleball, which they argue provides excellent longevity benefits. The episode highlights the promise of cutting-edge biomedical innovations for athletic performance and overall health, with a future glimpse into upcoming therapies like Clotho.   Connect with Jay here: Linkedin Mini Circle   Our Sponsors: - Organifi.com/kkp and grab a Sunrise to Sunset kit to be covered with Red, Green and Gold, with 20% off using code KKP - Go to happyhippo.com/kkp and use Code KKP for 15% off the entire store. - So if you’re 21+, check out VIIA and use code KKP for 15% off AND if you’re new to VIIA - get a free gift of your choice. After you purchase they ask you where you heard about them. PLEASE support our show and tell them we sent you. This year, enhance your everyday with VIIA. https://viia.co/KKP   Connect with Kyle: I'm back on Instagram, come say hey @kylekingsbu Twitter: @kingsbu  Fit For Service Academy App: Fit For Service App  Our Farm Initiative: @gardenersofeden.earth  Odysee: odysee.com/@KyleKingsburypod  Youtube: Kyle Kingbury Podcast  Kyle's Website: www.kingsbu.com - Gardeners of Eden site

Happy New Year, everybody. Today's guest is Jay Spall. Jay is somebody that I met down in Cabo San Lucas for a very interesting and novel performance-enhancing drug, something that is state-of-the-art that I'm very fucking excited about and potentially is one of the futures that we'll see in at least bodybuilding,

if not sports and athletics. Depends how testing goes for things like that. I've been retired for 10 years, so why not? Generally speaking, when it comes to stem cells and some of the state-of-the-art therapies that you can't get stateside, you can get outside the country, and that's what we did. So I'm very excited to talk about what that is.

We really disclosed a lot in this episode. I'm really pumped. I just wanna say, and I mentioned this in the podcast to Jay, there's not a lot of people I meet where I feel that I know less than them in almost every arena we're discussing. And I just, that's not me bragging. That's just me saying Jay knows so fucking much in so many different avenues. I was really impressed and really had a great time discussing. And so I really, this will be one of many podcasts we do. He has a wealth of knowledge, and I want to tease that out in these podcasts.

This podcast was really his story, which is a fucking crazy, crazy story of how he got into biohacking and health and wellness and just wanting to be the best version of himself. And I don't like biohacking as a term. Potentially that term actually is fitting for the therapy that we did together. A biohack, you could say. I don't know that everything else, I don't think red light therapy is a fucking biohack. I don't think cold immersion is a biohack. I don't think nutrient timing and there's just a lot of shit. The word gets overused, but it is potential, potential promise for what we're talking about here on this podcast. But he knows so much on peptides and many other avenues that I really want to draw more from. We kind of, because of the time we spent getting into his background and everything that we did in Mexico, we didn't get to tease everything out of him.

So there's more to come. I just want you to know that, but this was a great episode. We got to play pickleball afterwards and he fucking gave me and bear, my son, an awesome lesson. He's a great dude. I know you guys are going to dig this episode. And if you have questions, write me on a post because I actually look to respond to people there. I do not respond to people on DMs mostly because that would, I would never end. That job would never end.

But hit me up. I'm at Kyle Kingsboo on Instagram again, and it's actually me. And I do post at least once a week there. And I'm on fairly regularly to communicate with you guys specifically. Podcast listeners are people that I want to be able to communicate with and have a line of contact too. And doing that via emails and shit ain't never going to happen. So it's got to be, it's got to be through social media. All right. Without further ado, my brother, Jay Spall. Jay, welcome to the podcast, brother.

Thank you, Kyle. Thank you very much for having me. It's a pleasure and an honor. I'm so stoked for this. We got introduced from our dear brother and friend, John Beer, who, shout out to John, is one of my favorite humans. And John knows that I geek out on all things optimization, that I've been a guinea pig for some time before I got to on it for certainly while I was at on it. And certainly since I've been on it, I've always searched, you know, for things that could give me an edge, whether that be through knowledge, nutrition, biohacks, for lack of a better term, optimization of hormones, peptides, you name it. So when he called me and

talked with me about the potential of what you guys were working on, I was like, I fucking remember hearing about this. I remember hearing about this and muscle mag 10 years ago, you know, different things on myostatin inhibition and all of that. And at the same time had heard, you know, pros and cons, mixed reviews about phallostatin and all that that. And at the same time had heard, you know, pros and cons, mixed reviews about phallostatin and all that. So, but I was intrigued. And then talking to you, I was like, oh, this is the real deal. And it makes sense why there would be mixed reviews about something like that, because the fact of the half-life and peptide sites aren't going to get you producing your own and all that stuff that we'll dive into here. But we got to meet in Mexico for this treatment.

And I told you this when I met you, but it's very few, and this isn't me bragging, but very few times where I'll sit with somebody and within five minutes of talking to them, I realized they know more than me when it comes to biohacking, when it comes to peptides, hormones, optimization, you name it.

And I was so impressed. I was like, just right then I was salivating like fucking, you know, like in the movie Hook when Peter can't see the food yet. And then he finally uses his imagination and the whole table appears before him, the whole spread. That's what it felt like. I didn't know who I was sitting with until I knew. And then I was like, oh baby, i see the whole spread of conversation and we didn't leave the fucking table we sat down at lunch we ate lunch we kept talking until it was time to go change for dinner dropped into our rooms for a quick shower and a change and then met up for dinner and stayed at the fucking dinner table until what was effectively 12 30 a.m my time yeah right it was non-stop yeah and then the conversation continued the very next day

hanging out all the way up until it was time to get on the flight home. So I've been waiting for this. I've been very excited to talk to you. And you have a fucking remarkable story. We were just talking before the podcast about when I was at Onnit, see a need, feel a need. Alpha Brain was birthed because Aubrey partied. And his parents were worried about his brain and his cognitive health. So let's get into nootropics. fill a need. You know, AlphaBrain was birthed because Aubrey partied. And you know, they were,

his parents were worried about his brain and his cognitive health. So let's get into nootropics. Let's see what works best. And, and it was birthed out of necessity. Same thing with what was called roll on roll off, which is now called new mood, birthed out of necessity. And I see products that come to the market field based on that, you know, like there's a need for these things, see a need, feel a need. But I love it when people who come into this space come based on a necessity. There's a different space in my heart for those who fuck themselves up in one way or another. And then they become wizards when it comes to health and wellness in their own way. By need, you know, and I look at guys like Rob Wolf, who was a raw vegan for two years in college and just totally tanked his hormones and was sick and on the verge of dying and then

diving into work with Lauren Cordain and getting into the paleo movement and then expanding upon that and not being pigeonholed into one size fits all and really just understands everything he knows about health and wellness and I've learned from him and Mark Sisson and so many others. But your story is incredible because it's not just a, it's not, how do I word this? You got fucked up, right? You got fucked up at an early age and the prescription for that was something that was also fucking you up for a very long time. So the road to recovery for you was exceptional. And I really love the fact that that, you know, I want to dive into that. I'm perhaps running my mouth too much about it. But, you know, in the arc of all of my conversations,

I want to know what was life like growing up? What got you into what you're into? And then we talk about what you're into, right? And I think you have just a terrific starting space. So talk about life growing up, where you're from, and what happened. Thank you very much, Kyle. What a great starting point. You nailed our time. So while I do have to tell you, I had a magnificent time with you in Mexico and the rest of the group. I have spoken extremely highly of you amongst my community. You are an absolute savage. I don't know if people who do not know you, who have not

met you in person, I don't think they can possibly realize that you are a presence in a room. When you show up in a room, I think the energy just shifts very rapidly. And I'm a scientist, you know, if I can't measure it or quantify it, I'm going to have trouble believing it, right? But I felt it. So thank you for sharing the space with me in Mexico. And I'm very thrilled and honored to be here. And I'm happy to dive deep in about my life, your life, whatever naturally flows about this. So to going back, I grew up in Pakistan, came to US when I was 12 and I had a spinal injury at a young age from some abuse that I dealt with. Coming to US, we were a poor family. We lived in East LA in a small apartment, our entire extended family, even two families at one point.

So parents took me to the county hospital, had a surgery there. And that's kind of what all started where the issues really, really started. After the surgery, I was a young kid. I was about 16 years old. After surgery, I was a young kid. I was about 16 years old. After surgery, I got put on opioids. And, you know, I am very excited to talk about this very publicly because the journey that I went through, not many people have survived that, that are alive to actually talk about it. So from that starting point, having the surgery and getting on opioids, the journey lasted about 15, 16 years where all the way I was on fentanyl, what happens and I'm

going to my plan is like to talk about the nuanced details from the experience that people generally just don't understand. So if a person is on opioids for more than a few days, let's call it two weeks, maybe, you are not really having a positive benefit from the opioids. The way your brain works with these opioids is your tolerance is building up so rapidly that you're basically in a state of withdrawal because clearly the doctor is not upping your dose, right? And I think you're very, based on some of the conversations we had, you're very familiar with how the tolerance quickly goes up in different items, right? So somebody who is, so it's not a pain management tool for indefinite amount of period, right?

So from opioids, getting on hydrocodone, Percocets, they very quickly shifted me to fentanyl. I was a young student. I was in college at that time. I graduated high school very early, started college. I think I was end of 14, 15 years. So I was going through this process, having this trouble, being on prescription medication, trying to survive in the academia world, right? And still excelling, starting college at fucking 15 years old, right?

I mean, it's all relative, right? Compared to my 1.9 GPA at Monta Vista, I think it's, you started college young. Yeah, I started college young. Yeah, but it was very challenging. So what happened, I would have side effects from the medications and I'd go to the doctor. I'm like, oh, I'm having trouble falling asleep now. Here's some Ambien. Well, I think I have some anxiety or I'm depressed.

Well, let's get you on some Klonopin to relieve the anxiety. Well, next trip, I'm on SSRIs, you know. I'm on Lexapro. The trip after that to the doctor, I'm on a booster, Welbutrin, okay, because, you know, that should help the SSRIs work very well. My stomach is upset now. It's not digesting food well. And they're like, oh, you got acid problem. Let's put you on proton pump inhibitors. And now you are on that. And so it basically kept

growing for many, for many years, you know, before I knew it, I was 350 pounds, 348 to be more accurate. I clocked in at my highest. And I think I shared some photos with you in person. Yeah. 348 pounds and essentially a walking pharmacy where my brain was not right. I was complete, complete insomniac. I've always been a short sleeper my whole life where I've slept hours and felt absolutely great but this was just terrible so um finally uh I had this uh I was in I was in Vegas for a work trip and had a very successful trip right uh after my meeting I had this pain in my stomach and uh I called my sister who's a physician uh she I described the pain in my stomach and I called my sister, who's a physician.

I described the pain to her. She's like, don't even call 911. Get in a cab right now and get to an ICU. I went to the ICU and they admitted me immediately. My vitals were very, very off. In the hospital, I died. And I came back. I was under the impression I had given up hope to a point where I thought that I had tried to come back, you know, and lose weight and get healthy, get off these drugs. But there was no support I had. I don't even want to oust

the insurance company I had. But you know, there was no support. They wanted me to stay on these medications. Right. So I, uh, I thought that my sister was pregnant and my nephew was being born. I thought that I'm the leaf that falls and he's the one that sprouts. Right. So I gave up. So I let go and I died. And when I came back, I called my father and asked him, how's my sister? How's the nephew? Nephew was born. And I'm actually, I just got fission or chills as I even bring this up right now, because there's such a strong association in my nervous system with the story. Something happened in that moment that i was like oh i'm not supposed to die this is not i was under a very false assumption this is i don't know it almost felt

like a universal download you know and that moment i made a decision to live and i was like i'm taking things on my own hands now i'm going to make a conscious choice to live now. I'm not going to stop. I'm not going to give up. So, you know, I hired this doctor, an outpatient doctor. I didn't even know what rehabs were. You know, it's not a space I was familiar with. So I started doing research and I found this like outpatient luxury,patient luxury, like some celebrities would hire, pay them 20.

Was this the one they had to add in Malibu? Something like that, but this was tiny. A one-doctor operation. Doctor since has passed, unfortunately, from cancer. But man, he knew me. He knew me very well, knew my case very well. And I was shocked during our first meeting. I was on 100 micrograms of fentanyl at that time.

For people who are listening and for yourself, if you don't have any experience with fentanyl, prescription fentanyl is absolutely horrendous. Now, I will give a disclaimer that all these pharmaceuticals have a niche pocket where they are beneficial, but you can't be on them forever. Okay. So fentanyl is horrendous for when you're on it indefinitely prescription wise because you're on a patch. That means your patch runs out.

You put on the next patch, right? So your brain is getting zero minutes break from the fentanyl. And what's happening, your tolerance is going up, the dose is not going up. So you are in a constant state of not just physical discomfort, but also mental discomfort, all the things that come jam packed with withdrawals. So the doctor knew this, the doctor knew me and he knew that I was a scientist and he knew my pedigree to some extent. And he's like, look, Jay, let me give you some, I just don't know how to tell this to you. This is not something I would tell anybody else, but is there a way you can switch from fentanyl to heroin? And I am just, I don't know where to get heroin. I don't know how to work with heroin.

Okay. I've been going to my doctor and he's been writing me this prescription for years and worked with pain management departments in hospitals, right? In multiple departments. And he's like, look, fentanyl is a hundred-ish times more potent than heroin uh getting off of fentanyl is going to be a nightmare and it's i don't even know the exact number i may be mis uh representing but he said it's going to cost you five ten grand more uh to get off the fentanyl it's going to be harder longer it's going to require more care so man i made some calls and uh i got my hands on a quarter of heroin which is two eight balls so seven quarter ounce let's go yeah how much was it i no memory okay yeah yeah uh yeah i bought the heroin and I was like, well, I can't really just do this. You know, this looks like it's black, sticky.

So I also don't even remember the protocol that I came up with, but I just did some investigation, came up with like a basic. I think for me, it was very basic. what chemistry savvy came up with a purification protocol purified it to a maybe not 100% purity but to a great removed a great deal of impurities from it made microdose vapes and I you know in the next one two-ish weeks I basically shifted from fentanyl to heroin and even that was an a big big nightmare for me but there was a perfect i would call that one to two weeks of my life an epiphonic week it was just never i've never heard that word can you explain i have been weight making up that word for a long time and people have been fans of it epiphanies If you have a moment of epiphany, it's an epiphonic moment. That entire week was an epiphonic week for one reason, one main reason,

because I was on all these drugs for so long. I was, as I described, I was in a consistent state of withdrawal, not feeling well because nobody was managing my dose. Now I had the medication and I was in charge. So I was like, look, I'm going to give myself a week where I switch to this, but I'm not going to make myself suffer. Now, a lot of disclaimers here. Don't be doing this at home. Don't work with a professional all this. I felt like I had nothing to lose.

So I'm not giving advice on this. So that was the biggest thing that happened, that my pain was actually now finally relieved because I was able to manage my own dose for that week. So during that week, I went on an absolute rampage of research and development, like researching, okay, not research and development. I was reading Ayurvedic texts. I was on PubMed, which is, you know, where you look up scientific publications.

I was glancing through books. I mean, I must have gone through a thousand publications. I wasn't reading things in depth. I was just, you know, glancing over them to see what, yeah, skimming to see what I'm attracted towards if I find something. And then I was digging in. So I came up with a plan. This is in like 2017, 2018. There was very little awareness around, you know, the culture that you're a part of, the health and wellness that we're both part of, you know, certain diets that there's a lot more awareness. Hey guys, I want to give you a quick break here to tell you about an amazing company called happyhippo.com. Go to happyhippo.com slash KKP and use code KKP for 15% off everything in their

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slash kkp and use code kkp for 15 off the entire store anyway so i stumbled upon some of these things in that week i came up with a plan for myself for the next year. That was, I believe, it was January of, December 2018 when all the shit hit the fan and I died. I went on and cleaned myself up in January of 2019. First two weeks of January, I made this plan. Within the first 30 days, I lost 47 pounds. And then within the next four or five months, I lost an other 50 ish pounds, basically getting to a normal body weight. And the things that I learned, you know, I've heard

experts say that when people are addicts, and they are, they want to stop, or they think they want to stop, they internally decide when they're stopping, but when they're actually serious they make a declaration in public they let people around them know i was at that point i made a declaration at work that i'm flipping shit around i'm going to not just turn my health around i'm going to climb in the company you know i'm going to just climb the tree very rapidly. And that's what happened. You know, I lost a hundred pounds within a matter of months and just everything started shifting. And, you know, that is how it slowly ended up evolving into becoming my business. Because even my doctors that I was working with who were monitoring me were curious. They're like, you were diabetic two months ago. You are not diabetic

anymore. What did you do? Right. Anybody who was watching the transformation, they ultimately wanted to end up becoming my client and wanted to know the story. I just didn't have a system. So that's how it all kind of initiated and got started. I love that start. You know, I'd love for you to expand and talk, you know, along the way you're learning so much and perhaps with the, you know, when I finished fighting and I got into plant medicines and fasting and ketogenic diet and about two years on and off, but mostly on on nutritional ketosis, my brain worked so well. It felt like it was working for the first time in my life, even before all the punches in the head and all the party and cocaine and staying out late and that kind of shit. And I, and I, and I just questioned, like, what should I learn now? Where should I, should I go back to school? Should I finish school? Like, I just thought like, Holy shit.

And then I thought of Goodwill hunting and you know, you could get, you could have got all that for a $2 and 50 cents in late charges at a public library instead of the degree. Right. So I was like, well, I'll continue on the path that I'm on now. But because my brain was working so much better, and I was able to store all the information from the things that I was reading, and I was really drawn to some great teachers like Paul Cech and several others, it felt like this huge wave, you know, like I was almost cast up the second mountain, right? I'm sure, sure you know there are massive side effects from opiates but but aside all those the cognitive function that you experienced

must have been huge at that point losing all the weight increasing metabolism getting your life back um talk about you know in that phase what you were grabbing towards what you were allured to and what you were learning yeah uh i think think the things that I ended up gravitating towards are very much in your realm and very similar things. And I think there was one story article that I stumbled upon that was very life-changing for me. Again, look, I'm in a space, I'm in a headspace where I don't have much to lose. I'm not making a business. I don't care about learning the in-depth of it. I am operating very selfishly in the process of acquisition of knowledge during that phase. I'm not reading it in a way that I'm going to relay it and teach people, be on a podcast, right? I'm just grabbing what I need.

And this one story, so I don't know if this was a publication, if it was a true story, but it got my attention. There are these ancient people, I don't know if they're Ayurveds or civilizations that are so respectful. They're, you know, vegetarians, vegans, they won't even kill certain plants because that plant has too many emotions or feelings okay so that respectful of nature and animal life the story i read was even those people when somebody was very sick more specifically had some mental uh more mentally sick right they would actually sacrifice an animal and they would feed that person the organs and the fat even the brain but mainly the fat and i was like man okay i can go the other way and make logic and ration out of all the scientific research and analogies and the methodologies and dig into that come up with a

plan but something in me my intuition is telling me these societies, traditional Chinese medicine, Ayurveda, they've existed for thousands of years. They have uncovered, unfolded things in medicine and human body, which we are in Western medicine or science, our science is not even getting close to. So I got so drawn into that. And that's what I dug into is fat. Like, what is it about? And I got on to, you know, I was very familiar with Atkins because I was obsessed with fitness as a kid. So I knew how ketogenic diet was working. So yeah, after digging on it, I was like, look, I don't care if my triglyceride levels are going up. I'm on the brink of, I'm 350 pounds. I'm six foot one inch.

That is a lot of weight for killing my back, killing my brain. So the first 26, 27 days, I ate four ingredients mainly. I ate ribeye steak, butter, bacon, and salt. And that's it. And I had the same exact observation that my brain started to operate at a different level. In fact, the diet wasn't a good fit for me because I'm a very high energy individual. Like I'm on naturally stimulants. You know, I wake up and I'm just fired up right away without caffeine, anything. The energy was so much that it almost made me feel manic, right? So, so it was a temporary diet for me, but that was the starting point for me. And a very, almost like an interesting

story, how I stumbled upon to fat and saturated fat and ketosis and you're all too familiar with you know a cholesterol as a building block for even testosterone the other main thing that i did when somebody is fat overweight uh one of the things that's happening in the body is your hormones are crushed it's a negative feedback loop because the more you weigh the higher your estrogen conversion becomes because of the fat. But now you weigh even more because you have lower testosterone. So I was like, I got to break this cycle. So the first thing I did was I got on TRT. And the TRT, and the funniest thing is I lost 100 pounds with zero exercise.

Zero exercise. I lost 100 pounds with zero exercise, zero exercise, hormone correction, and diet was the extent of it because I was still in so much physical pain that I was, I was walking around, but I was, I had a full time job, right? So I was just able to survive that and keep up with all these things. All these other things I got involved in stem cells, um, exosomes, uh, you know, peptides and gene therapies. Now that what we started the conversation with, these all came in my later learnings and that's how I got involved in them. Yeah. I love the point that you bring up. Um, you know, in the classes that I teach, I, or when with clients as well, I want to teach them the building blocks

of what it means to be a healthy individual. And, you know, that boils down to, you know, Paul checks for doctors, you know, and really, really getting that and deciphering what that means for each person as an individual, because there's no one size fits all diet. It means metabolic health, wearing a CGM and figuring out that let's not guess. Let's see exactly what food does in your body at this point in time and how that changes. Let's think about fasting. Let's do this different stuff. And then when we get to the end of that, let's look at hormones and understand that because everything I just taught you isn't going to mean shit if you don't have the right hormone levels, right? It just doesn't. It won't move the needle. People talk about, oh, you know,

if you lift heavy, you know, it boosts testosterone, maybe 10%. Maybe, but if it's already in the tank and you start lifting heavy, what's that going to do? Right? You're just asking for an injury or to work out once every two weeks because your recovery sucks that bad. Right? There's just too many things that are incorrect there that are righted. And for some people, that's TRT. For some people, that's, you know, in clomiphene, HCG, things

that can stimulate natural production. Rob Wolf had an excellent podcast on Paul Chex, where, you know, Paul pointed out that a lot of TRT is bullshit. They're not teaching anybody anything. They're coming in here. They're giving a guy a shot. He feels better, but he's still eating like shit. He's not working out.

He's not paying attention to his diet and, you know, swears the stuff works, but he's not really healthy right and rob pointed out like this was the only way after crashing his hormones early on that he could get natural production back up and that took him a couple of years but once that happened you look at rob now late 50s you know he's working towards his black belt in jiu-jitsu he's phenomenal he's in fucking credible shape and he had the diet dialed already you know but that missing piece was such an important one so So you can do all these basics correctly. But if you don't address that, you're fighting an uphill battle at best, right? So I really, really, I respect the point that you

made there. And another factor that I like too, because people think TRT is all about aesthetics and building muscle and certainly at the right dose. I mean, that's a requirement for bodybuilders. There's a requirement for Tour de France guys, you know, like you just, you can't do that and expect your body to hold up without that stuff. But it's really the increase in life force energy. You know, it's the increase in your drive, your ability to get shit done. And so, you know, I understand how you were able to drop that while still so focused on work, but also paying attention and being mindful of what you're putting in your body. That makes sense to me. Yeah, it was definitely.

Yeah, I love how you articulated that. There's definitely a lot of seesawing that happened, you know, or like I before I found the balance, like my balance, it's still not there. Right. like my balance from my body it's still not there right like i think we are all continuously still unfolding our own systems and mastering ourselves but yeah before i got to a state of higher balance there was a lot of see-saw man with then you're right the dosing on trt it's's now after decades of kind of like awareness around that space, we can almost ballpark a little much better of a number than we knew a decade ago, 250 milligrams, like every guy wanted to do 200. Like people on TRT were, I just know hundreds of these conversations were like, yeah, I

just, I really want them to give me 250. You know, like, no, I don't want 150 or 125, right? So it's also a little bit of a give and take. And I'm actually really, I deeply respect the immense amount of knowledge you have. And I learned a great deal from you when I was in Mexico. And I love to go straight for the jugular in a very diplomatic way and actually stumble upon a topic where we may

actually have a disagreement to work it through live. And sometimes it will come up in my own struggle, right? One of my challenges that I've been having with testosterone personal, and I would love to hear your thoughts on it. The seesaw effect there, right? Like the drive, the motivation, all of that goes up. But part of me does also recognize that it is higher dose is not so good for longevity. Right. So it's a little bit of a give and take you know to assist with the body's aging

and not to speed it up certain things should slow down a little bit so i'm definitely in the process of navigating that i'm uh going to be turning 39 next month so it's time now i can't be running 150 milligrams of uh testosterone and doing rounds of growth hormone, right? Like that's not in the cards. I want to live to enjoy my happy life for as long as possible. Yeah. I think the podcast with Dr. Craig Conover, at least one of our podcasts where I talked about, you know, the, the, my use with TRT and, and the fact that I find it phenomenal. A brief recap of that history was when I was 17, I started taking anabolics to play college football and, and in hopes of playing professional football. And my weight when I was 17 years old is right where I'm at right now, right in between 222, 227. And, um, you know, I got a lot stronger at first. I didn't even know what the fuck I was doing. It's funny. Cause I was taking

my first cycle five weeks in. And I told my dad all this, he's like, if you ever do this shit, just tell me, just keep me in the loop. I'm like, all right, dad, I got you. And so five weeks in, I'm like, I don't think this stuff works. I think I got bunk stuff. And it was like Laura Bowen 50 and some other crap, you know, from down South. And, um, I'm like, I should be at a dose that's working. And my buddy was gaining strength and weight, you know, the guy who hooked me up. And, uh, it's funny if he's going to listen to this, he knows exactly, exactly what I'm talking to my homie from firefighter from down South. Um, and, uh, I wasn't experiencing any boost in whatsoever, right? And obviously 17, my testosterone was already through the fucking roof.

I didn't need to take extra. I just needed to do all the other shit I didn't know about. And my dad was, you know, loosely into bodybuilding, but into fitness, you know, and like lifting weights. And that meant bodybuilding sets and reps and that kind of shit. And got me an early membership at Gold's. I think when I was 13 or 14,

I got to work out there with him. And that was an awesome bonding experience having him as a weight lifting partner but um he kept telling me you need to sleep i needed to eat more you know and being a 17 year old i'm staying out late i'm drinking on the weekend i'm not really paying attention to sleep going to bed late watching tv that kind of shit i'd go to my nana's house up in oregon for 10 days and my buddy my cousin nick had some oregonian finest weed right so we smoke i'm eating like a fucking horse and i'm sleeping 10 hours a night without realizing i gained 10 pounds that

week and i was like holy shit my dad might be on to something right so i start reading into more and that actually funneled my curiosity towards you know how do i gain muscle mass it got me into you know the bodybuilder's mindset around eating two to three hours, that kind of stuff. But having experimented at fairly ridiculous doses, I talked about this on Peter Atiyah's podcast, The Drive as well, supernatural doses, and had done that for years. What would you consider those? Well, I was over a gram a week, put it that way, right? And we talked

about this before the podcast 600 megs of tests 600 megs of nandrolone orals on top of that just the injectables alone you're at 1200 you're over a gram a week that's supernatural right yeah not quite lee priest dosages like we were talking about you know down in mexico like you know fuck what three four five grams whatever that is but i didn't want to be a bodybuilder i wanted performance and i could you know rogan is famously talked about the point of diminishing returns. And as an athlete, I'll bring that up on where I dose now because of it. But even as a football player, which doesn't have great cardio demands, I could sense where that line was. You know, if I dose too high, I'm going to get too pumped. I'm going to gas in the first

quarter can have have that and so that was kind of the rate the rate limiting understanding was i still need to have some cardio but i also need to get as strong and as big as i possibly can and that meant you know at asu my senior year i was 267 um all this shit was prescribed i was doing blood work that was the one the one thing my father asked me was like get blood work so we know you're not gonna die and uh even on orals my liver liver looked great. You know, take a little milk thistle, that kind of thing, little cranberry extract, dandelion, all, all was good. When I got into fighting, you know, I'd come off of steroids and, um, I was doing low dose

testosterone then because I, I, I couldn't keep my weight on as a heavyweight and I needed to drop you know like I knew though guys like Lesnar and Carwin are dropping to 265 and coming in at 280 on fight day I'll never be that big and um that's ridiculous it was ridiculous right I mean they had like 5x gloves and shit like that and so it took me like a second to two, three seconds to just grasp that image in my head. Yeah. I couldn't stay above 240 doing MMA training. It was just too demanding of my body. So, you know, in camps, I fought my first nine fights at heavyweight and I'd come into fights somewhere in the low 230s. But getting to AKA, having Cain Velasquez there, who's a legit 245, not taking a damn thing, all natural.

I was like, it's going to make more sense if I try to drop. And so I was able to drop. And I played with things like enclomophene and different things like that. And, you know, it's funny because this is during that part of my life, the UFC was pro but not pro. You know, before USADA came in, they were showing us how to get a tue a testosterone use exemption and fox news or fox.com rather wrote an article uh curiously pointing out that six former ufc championships had testosterone use exemptions right and you know to me it made sense as well because the demands of our bodies but not only that the fact that your brain will shut off

natural production when you take a big hit. You know, we're taking big hits three days a week, right? So played there when I retired, I thought about coming off completely, but I never really felt the same drive that I'm talking about. I never really felt that from Enclomafine and HCG. And so I've been on a low dose of testosterone for years now and you know that changed from your 200 mg whopper once a week to anywhere from 0.2 to 0.3 ml three days a week and I've let that skirt up to 0.35 but even then thinking of the point of diminishing returns for me now at 42 years old and and not so much from a longevity standpoint for me, but

more so from a performance standpoint, I'm still doing kickboxing twice a week. I like to run with my wife and my kids. Um, sometimes we get up to Flagstaff and I'm on altitude, you know, if I'm carrying 235 pounds and I did carry 235 pounds when I quit, when I quit fighting, cause I was doing powerlifting and trying to gain muscle. My just feels better under 230 you know and and as we'll talk about you know like there's some aspects of of of uh the conversation that's going to unfold where like certain pieces of that conversation I'm not that interested in the results of phallostatin for muscle gain I am interested in the results of phallostatin for longevity I am interested in that for recovery and so I feel like with with the amount. I am interested in that for recovery. And so I feel

like with, with the amount that I train and everything that I'm doing, I feel my best at 0.25 to 0.3, three days a week. And that's still under 200 milligrams. Yeah, exactly. So I'm still under the one MML, the one ML mark on a weekly basis. I mean, you're also a big guy, you know, I'm trying to, yeah, I'm trying to keep my weight down. I'm not in a cutting phase or anything like that. I don't do caloric restriction other than once or twice a year, I'll do a fasting mimicking diet.

The hardest core thing I've got coming up is a vision quest next October, which will be no food, no water here on the land for four days. But that's more spiritual than it is for optimization. And I'll look at blood markers. I'll look at all that shit beforehand. You should.

Yeah. I want to see how it affects. There's not a lot of data on that. You know, there's data on water fast. There's data on fasting, mimicking. There's not a lot of data on, on a dry fast. You know what? One of the things you just said so deeply excited me and I want to grab that and go

a little bit deeper into that. You brought up a very new point to me that I have gotten all too familiar with because of my most healthiest addiction of my life, pickleball. Because you are testing yourself, you brought up kickboxing performance, you have a much greater gauge of how you are doing on things than most other people. And I have a very, this is, I mean, I've been playing pickleball for a year and a half, and this is the first time in my life I've been using peptides and testosterone. And, you know, my medicine cabinet is seven foot long shelves, six of them that are four bottles deep. Things are organized by brain, you know, my digestion section.

Here's my liver section. Here's my healthy stem section. Here's my toolkit if something goes wrong right like it's i have a large selection but i will tell you in this last year and a half i have been able to gauge how i do with things at an exponentially better rate like i have a grasp on what things are doing to me not because of how i know i'm performing on pickleball like i know it's not even how i play an hour of pickleball i'm playing for four to six hours if there's something i'm taking that's not sitting well with me at hour one hour two i'm feeling it right i've had to develop to develop, I'm not, you're a physical specimen

and you are a natural athlete. And I'm also saying you're a natural athlete, but you have also put in the effort, right? I'm a fraudulent athlete. I'm a pretend athlete, okay? Playing six hours of pickleball, but it's not easy. Like I've had to learn all these things from scratch now. How do I maintain? Do I want to go into ketosis to boost my performance? At what time do I shift to glucose, right? How do I do that? Do I want to bring in fats? Because I am a scientist. I'm very anal. I love pickleball. I'm very competitive. And I'm trying to get the highest performance out of me. And very interestingly, I have even stumbled upon like, oh, doing peptides at certain times of the day will actually bring me down, right? It will

hinder my performance, certain foods. So I just, you know, the emphasis on this point for me is healthy beyond just working out, healthy sporting activities that are testing coordination, hand-eye coordination. These are phenomenal for the brain, for longevity perspective, but also tracking perspective. And this is a point like people don't talk about, right? You end up developing this different level of relationship with your body. A hundred percent. Yeah. Yeah. You bring up a phenomenal point. And I don't know that I've ever belayed, belayed, belated it, belated, belated, belated, belated, belated, belated, belated, belated, belated, belated.

In a way, there we go. Relayed. I've talked about this loosely, you know, in my transition. When I finished college, I said, I'll never read another fucking book again. I'm still a senior at ASU. I mean, I was that disgusted with it. And my strength coach wanted me to read How to Eat and Move and Be Healthy. And I was like, I'm not going to, I'm not reading another book. And he goes, would you watch a video? So I watch Chex, Flatten Your Abs Forever. I was like, fuck yeah, I want to get shredded and have a six pack. And Flatten Your Abs Forever is all in the microbiome, soil health, regenerative agriculture. But I saw Paul's

Wizardry. And I was like, I'll read that book. And so I read the book, I take the questionnaires, I start paying attention to what's going on in my body. And because I had the test of the fight, it was night and day, my experience in life, my recovery, my sleep, my emotional state. And that's pre-ketosis, but just holy shit, what a difference that made. And it made such a big difference that that's what sparked my interest in reading everything you fucking see here, right? Like it lit my fire to continue my education. But that test is the harder the test, the greater the degree to which you can know yourself. And to know when I'm running the N equals one experiment, how does this work? Does it work a little bit, a lot of it? You know, like all of that makes a

huge difference. And I think whether that's six hours of pickleball or, you know, sparring with some of the best fighters in the world, it, you want to have something like that, that you can measure yourself against yourself, right? Because just going to the gym and cranking out reps and seeing if you gain 10 pounds on bench press, it's not the same. Yeah, yeah. One of the things that you and I have very much in common is our fascination with n of one you know uh historically uh the way science has worked you just need you need proof you need more proof and then more proof and then experiments to prove that that is not true you need to see a quantity of them to be like, now that is true. Well, when you end up in a pocket,

in a deep void of a personal disaster, an accident, health crisis, at that point, N of one is what you are dealing with, right? And just so much great innovation. I mean, my story, a lot of your story, these things, your pockets that you're describing, a lot of the health influencers, their stories, these are all N of one. And the N of one in the last, we're calling it the N of one, but I think you know what I mean. And people know what I mean.

This is the innovation that has come about it now has been pretty immense. And I'm a very, very big fan of it. I have kind of let go of my formal scientist training to be able to accept the innovation that's happening from just single individuals experimenting on themselves. Yeah. And describing their experience. Yeah. Tell me how it goes. I'm not prescribing anything to anyone. But this is what this thing did for me. yeah and and describing their experience yeah you know tell me how it goes it's not now i'm not prescribing anything to anyone but this is what this thing did for me you know i think there

is i have a deep resonance for that and appreciation and there's guys like tim ferris you know to great fucking guy can he pig in himself then got me into he's actually why i started a ketogenic diet in the first place he had dr dominic diagostino on dr peter et on i was like well they say this works for the brain. And, you know, I want to give it a shot. It lowers inflammation. You know, you're not a slave to your food. You don't have to eat every two, three hours.

Like, this looked really promising. And I try it on, and holy shit, you know. So I think that's great just to give the idea, you know, because we can share information so quickly now. It's not in taking that information and trying to say, well, that works for sure. And this doesn't work for sure. It's like, no, no, let me try that and see how it works for me. And I've had many things that I've had come up through podcasts and YouTube and Instagram, where I'm like, I want to try that. And some of it worked, but a lot of it, some of it didn't work, but a lot of it did work, you know? And so we,

we get to advance off of other people's N equals one. Yeah, yeah. The N of one is like, to me, it's almost like a curious motivation. Like when I hear individuals' unique experiences, it sparks a curiosity in me along with some motivation and this desire to want to practice it right uh and i wanted to share if some as you're sharing stories if something pops in my head i'm going to share it with you in the list of enclomophene i had a question for you in that time did they have enclomophene or was it just clomid uh clomophene citrate okay yeah so it was clomid yeah and clomiphene is what they do now is what they do now which seems which is does work a lot better with less estrogenic side effects uh but it's still like sparse it's it's hard to find still i never experienced too many estrogenic side effects from clomid but more from hcg at higher doses and this was you know in the days

of take a whopper you know right when you first go to post-psychotherapy and then teeter it down yeah um you'd probably have far better protocols but yeah i think somewhere around here is the anabolics 11 book yeah from dr william llewellyn yeah yeah i still like just it's right above you i still like having you know i want to see this shit what's available what's new what's going on so yeah yeah yeah uh there's a peptide called gonadarellin uh which is very interesting it works uh the most comparable thing would be atg but it's much smaller it seems to stimulate the lh and fsh luteinizing, follicle stimulating hormone. Yeah, yeah, exactly. And you need a very, very tiny bit.

Of course, you know, work with a professional under a professional's care as you experiment with something like this. But that's a very, very interesting peptide. Cool. Increases sperm as well? Well, anything that's impacting your LH and FSH should, the end result, it should be ultimately increasing your sperm as well. Yeah. I know. I haven't minded the fact that, you know, like it appears we're not going to have more kids.

We got our boy, we got our girl. Life is good. It's challenging as all hell with just two kids. And I've got one of my best friends has three and they do a great job and they're all family you know like they're their kids are my kids um and and there's room for a third but it's also like for if we don't have it like i'm counting my blessings it's a blessing if we have a third it's not it's a blessing if we don't you know yeah i totally get it it's been uh uh many years that i've been sharing this story with people and referring to my natural birth control like in the beginning of my trt journey i was managing you know i was trying to keep my system running the reality was system was already shut

down you know to a great deal and then you know i kind of looked at it as a pro that it's a natural birth control right and questions have been asked to me that are you worried when it's time for when you want to have kids and i have personally always felt that this is a system that i can turn back online look at arnold schwarzenegger that's what i would say you know look at arnold arnold uh you know he knocked the nanny up we're talking about the greatest bodybuilder of all time and even though he was in an era that predates you know ronnie coleman and what the guys are doing now and you can see physically that that predate is like universal from all the guys that were on stage with arnold compared to all the guys that are now. But he was still taking more than the average human does. That's on a basic TRT program, a lot more.

And he had no problem getting everyone pregnant. Yeah, this is a system that can turn on, and I think there's a comfort level, right? A good metaphor to communicate what I'm talking about, but the comfort level with all this biohackings and injectables is if you have a car, the same identical car, let's take a driver's car like an M3, and you have a chemical engineer and a mechanical engineer, you give them the same car, the same objective, speed it up. The mechanical engineer may remove the engine physically work on it whereas the chemical engineer may go into the

software only at the end of their experiment they meet up and they're both going to look at each other the chemical engineer will look at the mechanical and be like wait you took the engine out of the car to speed it up and the other one's like are you fucking crazy did you fuck with the software to speed it up, right? We are just wired in a way, whatever we end up comfortable with. I'm not comfortable. I wasn't. Having some, getting a vasectomy.

But I'm a chemical engineer. I was like, oh, I can go turn it off and eventually turn it on when need be, right? It all is coming with a risk. It's a matter of which risk am i comfortable with so what kind of an engineer are you kyle all right y'all i want to tell you about one of my longest running show sponsors organifi.com slash kkp use code kkp for 20 off everything in the entire store. Grab a Sunrise to Sunset kit to be covered with the red, the green, and the gold with 20% off using code KKP. All right, these guys are running some pretty cool deals here. National Apple Tree Weekend. Buy two, get one crisp apple free.

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Organifi.com slash KKP. And don't forget to use KKP at checkout for 20% off everything in the store. That's a great question. I think it's funny. I was just listening right before our podcast to Brian Johnson on the More Plates, More Dates podcast. I'll link to it in the show notes. It's four hours, a fascinating podcast. And they discuss some of the stuff from Minicircle that we're going to get into on this podcast.

But they were taught, you know, I think Derek is his name, More Plates, More Dates. He's talking to Brian about, you know, like, oh, it's interesting. You take oral minoxidil for your hair, which, you know, has some side effect profile. And all you got to do is get a hair transplant. Again, maybe there's something where you're like, well, if I do it this way, then it's coming from my body, you know, versus. So that's exactly what you're speaking to. Pulling the car or the engine out and putting it back in versus changing it chemically and growing your own.

And then my side of the coin is I don't need my fucking hair. I'm happy to be bald, you know, but that definitely dives into your question. I'm not sure, you know, like I feel like for me personally. The better science gets and the safer things get um i laugh at the fact that we laughed at the fact that guys were shoot synthol back in the day oh my god because it because it looks stupid but even if it looked real synthol for people that don't know was an injectable oil like a fat right in an oil it was a sterile oil that people would inject into their biceps their chest yeah tricep yeah yeah and it would and it would swell and eventually you know that that big bolus would

start to slowly go into uniformly into the muscle belly hopefully uh and it would last for a couple years right so something like no no no the i believe synthol was lasting for days and weeks. Oh, shit. They were sitting that much? Yeah, yeah. Because I could be wrong here, but I highly doubt it. But still, I may be wrong. But you're injecting a fat. You're injecting an oil that your body is just like getting rid of. So they were...

Okay. I was under the assumption that it was something, some preservative or some type of oil the body had trouble breaking down, which in and of itself is nothing you want to fucking inject into your body. But to my point, you know, that addition of something fake that has no utility whatsoever in the body, I'm like, I'm not about that. I'm not going to judge people. Any adult who wants to do whatever the fuck they want, man, run the experiment. If it makes you feel happy, cool. But if it's usable and it works and it changes the way, you know, I would say I'm at least

equally, I'm probably most obsessed with being the best athlete I can be at every age. More so than strength, more so so than mobility even more than longevity because i feel when i'm when i'm in shape and i have balance and i'm athletic that's where i feel my best yeah yeah yeah you know so if it if it if it moves that if you read the red rising series best action love story of all time there's uh five books they're gonna write a six or maybe six books and they're gonna write a seventh um pierce brown incredible fiction just incredible and they have you know it's in the future and basically they've created uh these different subsets of humans you know and the reds are kind of the workhorses they're smaller uh irish accents you you know, and they're the grunts that are digging mines and

doing shit. And the golds are seven feet tall, 200 kilos, incredibly bright, like Neo in the Matrix bright, where you can download all the fucking, I know Kung Fu, I know, you know, highest level math, that kind of stuff. They understand history, they can speak multiple languages. And when I think about that, I'm not opposed if science gets us to a place where the risk is low to augmenting in a way that creates a better cognitive function and creates better muscle performance and, and at the same time, you know, can help with longevity. Right. And so that, that's, that's, that's kind of where I stand on that. I float back and forth on all sorts of shit. I loved Derek's take and more plates, more dates, because he had issues with some of the stuff Brian Johnson was into. Personally,

I just think the guy needs sunlight and maybe some meat, but all the other things, I'm very happy that people like him exist because he's the ultimate fucking end of one. Right. And he's doing this with a team and he's doing it with, know science backed in the best way he can and we disagree on stuff too but i think that that that his take on that's really cool but if i could become a gold and i joke with my wife about this because she says i already am a gold and i'm like you know six three and a half hundred kilos i'm close as a human but i'm not a gold you know feet tall, 200 kilos with the ultimate brain power. That's a whole different fucking animal we're talking about. That human doesn't exist yet, you know, but I am interested in the little, the, the steps we take to potentially create that.

Not in my lifetime, but just, you know. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. As we go. Yeah. I would, uh, to start, I was taking mental notes. I always knew you were a hybrid from not always within hours,

minutes of meeting you. I knew that you were a hybrid as far as the type of engineer, because you are very mechanical, very comfortable there. And he's a very nice guy. He's done the full statin gene therapy, which we are going to get to and talk, really go deep into. And I, you know, I'm also a very transparent person. I'm a huge fan of Brian. I'm a huge fan of Dave. I'm a huge fan of Ben Greenfield. These are people that have had a monumental impact on my life. And I'm, you know, please excuse me for not saying the other 10 people who have had massive impact on me. Right. When you mentioned Ben's name, I was like, fuck, I should have mentioned Ben. Cause Ben Ben because Ben was a huge influence and still is. Yeah. Awesome. But here's the thing, right?

You have to become your own end of one because should I become a vegan like Brian? Should I only be eating ribeyes and ghee like Dave? Right? You do have to see saw teeter totter to find your balancing act on what's working for you. And I shared almost the exact same thing with Brian that you just shared. For me, I'm really so happy and obsessed with pickleball because it if I am now living my life and maintaining my health just so I can play pickleball at my peak performance for absolutely as long as possible. If I find out that sun is ridiculously damaging for me and it's going to shave off 10 years, 20 years, you know what? Let's make it challenging.

If I find out that it's going to shave off a quarter of my life i will fucking take the risk and play pickleball because to me if i can't perform and get that feeling right that you know very well that a lot of people just don't then life is not worth living but uh one of my colleagues as well, Ryan Rosner, I love the guy. I deeply respect him. He's like, he's a savage. He reminds me a lot of you

and I will introduce you two together. He has his protocol was recently published as well. He's dialed in. You know, he's cracked the code on longevity, but his sport is essentially longevity, right? He gets, so it's all about mastering what gets you off and then keep getting off. It's funny you mentioned that because I didn't understand a live, I'll be honest.

I had heard a lot of shit about Brian Johnson, but hadn't really taken a deeper dive into him until listening to this podcast. And it is interesting and fascinating to me that he's basically created like the longevity Olympics, a way to compete and a leadership board and all that. Yeah, rejuvenation Olympics. Yeah. While I find that fascinating, I also think of it kind of like CrossFit, you know, and there's Eastbound and Down. Oh, yeah. Because I'm not so easy to say.

I'm not trying to be the best at workouts, right? Like that's what I think of CrossFit. I'm not trying to be the best at workouts. Now, CrossFit, when done correctly, can make you an incredible athlete where you can fucking run forever and still lift heavy and still do a lot of things. So as far as bringing the best out of your body, yeah, I get that, no doubt. But when you're talking about sports, whether it be pickleball, tennis, golf, whatever, there's an opportunity to come into flow state, which is in and of itself,

like a, it's a gift, right? It is an absolute beautiful state to be in. And I don't know that you could get that from seeing your name on the longevity of leadership board, right? Like it's just missed. Something's missing there. The physical, the physicality of it is missing, even though you might do things physically to help with longevity. Yeah. Yeah. It's no, I agree with you. I agree with you. It's, it's a different system.

I would have to make a much stronger case for pickleball as one. I consider it to be one of the most longevity oriented sport that is currently existing and i'm going to soon be giving uh padel or paddle and some of these other uh offshoots or similar sports to pickleball but it just it i think we're going to find out in next 10 years long 20 years a very nice long-term study that is going to show that pickleball is drastically outperforming any of the other sports for longevity. Minimal impact on the joints. Just the hand-eye coordination is, you're so jam-packed with it. You're also playing in very close vicinity

to three other people. So it has the social component. You know, tennis outperformed, I believe the last big study that Dr. Daniel Amen, you know, and a lot of people have been referencing, tennis outperformed all sports. You know, soccer, anti-longevity, because you get, you know, head-butted.

The shape of your skull is different. And headers. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Not head-butted, headers. That's what I was saying or what I was meaning to say. With pickleball, all these components are really locked in and dialed. And you can play till a very old age most of the ex-tennis players or people who were playing tennis are switching they can't play tennis anymore they're switching to pickleball but and

the learning curve is so it's pretty easy to learn and then you the hook sink in every time the ball hits the paddle you get a dopamine hit right uh there's so much social interaction to crack through how the energies of people are working through how do you win and then to get between becoming good and really good and excellent now that's a very, very far curve, right? So it keeps the hooks very synced in, keeps you motivated. And I have no shame in admitting very openly that I have a very addictive personality. If I love something, whether it's good or bad, I go deep into it, right? I will hyper fixate on a subject, a person, a topic, an object, and just go deep into it. This is the favorite thing about pickleball is it's meeting all these positive requirements of my life.

And frankly, I feel like every morning I am able to actually make better decisions about my food, about my workout, about my recovery protocol, because I want to win. It's accountability. Yeah. In the best way. It's not like you don't have to worry about your accountability coach missing Friday's training session. Are we playing?

Fuck yeah, dude. I want to. Absolutely. I've loved the pickleball part of this conversation because everyone on the farm team is obsessed. First thing Aubrey did when we got this place was he put in a sport court with pickleball and basketball first thing I did was put in an outdoor gym right next to it right and then I've slowly gotten into pickleball I used

to think it was not not silly but I mean I'd played it with old people that's what I did you know my first introduction to it was down in Arizona with Ryan Bader and his in-laws and it was hella fun like it was a lot of fun, but I never thought it'd be something I'd be into, but bear loves it. My son, you know, it's, it's easy enough for kids to play, but also works hand-eye coordination and gets them better. Right. But also, you know, you can play in a way where it's incredibly challenging to speak to what

you're talking about earlier. And then I want to get back into optimization, peptides. I want to talk and then I talk follow stats. So I don't want to lose that. And I still want to have time to play. Yeah. So I want to speed through this, but tennis players who get into pickleball, like if Ben Greenfield's into pickleball, that's, that's a fucking monster, right? Aubrey's mom, uh, played in Wimbledon and, um, he's played tennis since he was young young he got into pickleball and like watching him serve is just like this isn't fair it's not fair he had to play with his weak hand just like the fucking the guy in uh princess bride you know i too am not left-handed right he was playing with his weak hand and still we were still beating our other guys but yeah we've got homies you got to

meet a couple of them eric and brent they're waiting on us so oh perfect i want you know they're waiting on us and bear should perfect. They're waiting on us. And Bear should be back. I would love to see him get in there with us and learn some stuff from you as well. But let's talk peptides. Let's talk other optimization tools. And let's talk about the future, which is mini circle and what's happening in the world with that. What are the things we know about peptides that are just, I mean, go down the list of your favorites, what they do, and talk about even any potentials of side effects for some of these.

Because, you know, like BPC-157 getting pulled from the FDA, head scratcher, unless you think there's fuckery going on. Like one of the safest things ever created. Yeah. You know, absolutely nothing that I know of from a side effect profile and Oh, let's get rid of that. It works too well. Right. But let's, I'd let's save the dark shit for another time. Let's just talk, you know, what are your favorites here? What do you recommend? Cause you know far more about peptides than I do. Yeah.

And I found incredible benefit from BBC one five, seven Thymus and beta for IGF one LR three, you know, from a recovery standpoint, from a joint healing standpoint, and to somebody who wants to get after it, like nothing derails you worse than an injury, but knowing I can recover quicker, if even if it's just half the time, right, like that's going to make a huge difference. I got but in my dad just had a surgery, he's going on all this shit. One of my best buddies, Craig, out in New York, had a labrum and rotator cuff tear. He went on this, and his doctor was like, what are you doing?

He healed so much faster than anybody that he had ever worked with before. He was doing surgeries for 10 plus years, you know? 20 years. Lay it on us. Yeah, okay. So very specifically, I'm going to give you the meat of the peptides okay definitely the heaviest hitter healing peptides i would call them

would be bpc 157 and tb 500 or thomas and beta 4 okay there's almost them two working, these two taking together, they work synergistically. And they work just absolutely insanely well for your whole body. Okay. TB 500 will reverse injuries in a matter of, you know, days, weeks. It will speed things up by like four or five X. Okay. As far as like tissue healing goes, KPV is a phenomenal peptides. I can probably name a lot. I'm going to keep the list tight and short.

As far as it comes for to skin collagen peptides, the copper peptide GHKCU, it's the blue peptide. It's a very unique blue color that is maybe the grandfather in that category. And one of my favorites, which it's essentially a tool, it's a very sharp tool in my toolkit that I hopefully never have to use or rarely use, thymosin alpha-1. Thymosin alpha-1 is one of the best immune boosting,osting, immune-modulating peptides that if you get exposed to a virus or are sick or got flu symptoms, you can take up to 3 milligrams, injection, subcutaneous, or intramuscular, and it will just pull you right out.

Well, we should stockpile that in case Gates is right about disease X. We just have some shit on hand. Yeah, yeah. These are just interesting areas and the you know i don't want to get too much into the some of the conspiratorial stuff that is true but also like it's hazy right but the these peptides becoming illegal was i think it was a pharmacist from texas uh who called and filed a complaint and boom, just blew up the spot, you know? So it was an interesting, this is an interesting time.

And I'm going to tie all of this to gene therapy. But you asked a really good question, okay? Like, what are some of the new things? How is this working? My basic, and this is my personal opinion, this is not a fact okay hierarchy for health is your nutrition your exercise and sleep is your delta that like the triangle that can't be fucked with right if you don't have this met don't even do anything else that's dr movement dr diet dr quiet that's yeah it cannot be fucked with yeah yeah that's that's my core essential triangle for all human beings.

After that, you can bring in supplementation over the counter. After supplementation, you can bring in some interventional IVs. Along in parallel to that, you got ozonation therapies. Then you can bring in some peptides beyond, this is the hierarchy, beyond peptides, you can start bringing in some exosomes, some stem cells, and then beyond that comes gene therapy. And I've always kind of operated on the edge of all these spaces because of my hyperfixation, you know, I will get hyperfixated and then end up at the edge of all these spaces because of my hyper fixation you know i will get hyper fixated and then end up at the edge you know so i've been involved in a lot of a variety of peptide projects

for consulting with clinics coming up with protocols helping doing qc sources sourcing whatnot and my most recent project in the last few years has been a gene therapy project. And that's how, uh, that's how we met, right? You did the full stat and gene therapy. So I can give a very basic lay of the land on how the gene therapy is working.

There's two main components, uh, here to understand. The first component is the technological component on how did you, how many circles gene therapy works and i'm currently the cro for the company the chief revenue officer um the technological component and then the product component so in the technological component this is basically a dna plasmid that does not that gets injected in your body does not modify or edit your DNA. But this plasmid has a code on it and we can put the code

we desire. So let's take full statin as an example. So it has a full statin code on it, gets injected in you. The therapy is transient in nature. Transient in nature meaning it goes in you, it's working for an X amount of time. X amount of times would range from, we'll just call it months, because even if it's six months, months, 18 months, 12 months, right? So it lasts months, depending on the individual and their unique biochemistry, and it's out of your body. There's a mechanism in the body that naturally silences it called leaky gene transcription, okay? So this is the very amazing and unique technology that Mini Circle has developed.

Our two founders, Mac Davis and Walter Patterson, like they're savants. I don't even know how to describe them. They are just absolute geniuses, right? And we met many years ago at an underground biohacking party where it was just like stem cells gene therapy nadivs ketamine oh that there was like a secret uh unreleased light where you could just put the light on and go on to a deep psychedelic journey some of these

lights are now coming to market but it was just a variety of modalities. We met each other and immediately gravitated towards each other and just like started slowly over the years working together. Anyways, so now that we understand the technological component of the gene therapy, right? The next is the product component. This gene therapy is a platform where almost any product of our choice can be deployed depending on some of the research time and resource allocation, right? So this made it perfect for full of statin. And we can tie it together to some of the things we already talked about.

So TB500 or Tamazin Beta-4 that you brought up that you've used and worked really, really well, you technically can inject that twice a week and it would work. You don't even need to inject that every day. That's how thalmosin beta-4 dosing usually work. If you can take in two and a half to five milligrams in two shots in a week, you're good to go. Okay. Some peptides like BPC, you can do once or twice a day, right? So it's still feasible to do. Well, folistatin has been an amazing protein. It's in the protein state, you know, amino acids, peptides, protein, okay? Because larger.

So folistatin has existed and has been researched for almost a quarter century as one of the most well-researched longevity compounds with an insane amount of benefits. But it's just not feasible to consume because of the short half-life. That's what we spoke about. Incredibly short. Yeah, incredibly short half-life.

Physically, even if you are the chemical engineer you are, or I am, that's not something I'm going to partake in. It's like running out of your body in 45 minutes, an hour, an hour and a half maximum. So you can time it to take it before your workout or after for recovery, but you're not getting the longevity benefits from it. That fact alone made it the perfect launch product for our gene therapy platform. And it has done for not like all the big biohackers we've named. And it has done phenomenal, like all the big biohackers we've named, they've all done the therapy,

you've done the therapy. And once I wrap up the subject and give you a sneak preview on something that we haven't really talked about yet, I want to get into what was your personal experience like? Absolutely. Because look, when we met from sharing a meal to seeing you, you are an animal.

I just can't emphasize that enough. You are not a normal human. You are a present. Like your body is built. Today when I saw you in the car before we even got out, you are built even more. What the hell? So I want to get to your results.

100%. Okay. So Folstatin, you know, people have done it. We've gotten really, really good results with it. You know, my mom did it. My dad did it. My girlfriend's mom did it. Amazing results.

My mom sent me a message. It felt like one of the biggest achievements in my life to give this to my parents. She sent me a message that, son, I had forgotten how it feels to feel this good my dad has sarcopenia 68 never worked out in his life uh it's pakistani you know immigrant never worked out after doing full stat and he's not working out incredible right so what's next what's coming up next in this pipeline we are very very excited about clotho clotho is uh very very good for longevity for your heart for your kidneys for your brain

early studies have shown not our studies early studies on clotho protein have shown an increase in iq points and just shifts very positive shifts in your brain some fun internal information i may share with you off air but clotho is something the biohacking space uh the deep biohackers the chemical engineers have been just like waiting for on standby desperately waiting for and we are very close by close it could be a year or two we consider that to be very close right yeah so that's going to take the biohacking space by a storm um that's very very exciting and beyond that, we have a pretty hefty pipeline of other items that we would be putting in this gene therapy. Last thing I will add on this, and I want to hear your feedback and any further questions you have on this. So in this

platform, right, we could put in a BPC, we could put inKCU sequence on it where it gets injected in you, and you will just make higher levels of GHKCU naturally. Yeah, I think that's a big, you know, one of the questions that I had. And, you know, Derek, more place and more dates. He talks about the promise of myostatin inhibition for most people that don't know was looking at Bully Whippets. You can Google Bully Whippets. You can Google Belgian Blue Cows where you just see you know the the deletion of of both

chromosomes you know to the both pairs and then these fucking animals have no fat they're gigantic right they they're the ronnie coleman of cattle right and it's you know they're not taking steroids or doing anything they're just that's that's how they're what their body gets to and myostatin is kind of our rate limiting factor on how much muscle we can put on. Like all of the steroids on earth, I could, I couldn't crack 270 pounds, eating 10,000 calories a day. My body had a limit. I could never look like Arnold or Ronnie Coleman. I'm just not built for it, even with other shit. Right. But if we move myostatin, that change a lot right so we talked bob sap as potentially you know bob sap fights in pride uh all american nfl you know all pro nfl player 300 pounds

you know fights and pride comes out six months later he's 380 all muscle no fat right but the issue with crisper would be whether he did that or not just speculation is that when you delete a gene we don't know what's going to happen upstream and downstream for that yeah and it's something will fucking happen because they're all interlaced right so the thing that i appreciated about what you guys are doing is that it doesn't change your dna it's a completely reversible thing and it only is going to last months it's not going to last years and what drew me further wasn't the i mean 10 pounds of muscle sounds cool so i guess it was you know like just under two pounds of lean muscle tissue if you're

sedentary. Yeah. Right. Um, 10 pounds to 15 pounds from lean gainer to hard gainer. If you're working out and you're eating enough protein. Wow. Great memory because these are things that very good memory. So for me, you know, and I have, honestly honestly i am kind of a hard gainer even as much as i built i had to work my ass off to be this size and strength um not a real heavyweight right at six three and a half but that said uh 10 pounds of lean tissue sounds cool to me only from a longevity standpoint because muscle is going to decline right and i love paul he's gonna he doesn't agree with the shit that i do on a chemical standpoint i want to say that right now um but also paul 63 he's stronger than i am but he's got to bust his ass to maintain where he's

at because he doesn't augment his testosterone and he's 100 organic you know and i have mad praise for that me personally with the damage that I did earlier, I feel, you know, happily pigeonholed into the camp of alteration. And, and I am always searching for things that can create this boost in any in any way performance and longevity. What I loved about this gene therapy is is the potential and the promise of not only working on performance, but working on longevity. And that was very interesting to me because most things, you know, are a teeter totter where you sacrifice one for the other, typically, right. Whether that's testosterone, even protein consumption, right. You're going to sacrifice one for the other when it comes to that. So that made it very curious to me.

And, you know, again, I'm not, I don't want to be above 230 pounds. I just want to be a better athlete and having strength and recovery is a big fucking deal to me because I feel my best when I'm doing that. When I'm not, I'm not trying to PR on weight training, but I am learning a ton of new shit. I just had my boy Connor Milstein on, who was Jordan Burroughs and the U S Olympic wrestling team's trainer. He's fucking next level. We're doing really cool shit together. And it's stuff it's david weck stuff it's it's odd motions with unique tools but doing that makes me a better athlete and you know to your point i had i uh we when did we go down to mexico october i believe i looked it up before coming okay to refresh october you know initially i was like holy shit i think i feel it

you know and then it's kind of like know, the time somebody takes testosterone for the first time and day one, they think sapienate is working, right? What I've noticed is increased recovery. And I thought it was cool, but I also wasn't training my ass off to the point where I could really test it. When Connor stayed with me for eight days, we did two-a-days basically every day with exception to maybe one. And these weren't, you know, ball-breaking workouts, but I'm still doing – I'm blood – you know, I love the BFR cuffs. Yeah, yeah. I've got blood flow restriction on while me and the boys hammer the bags for 45 minutes, and then I hold mitts for them after. You know, I'm going through those workouts.

I'm going through the new strength training workouts. I'm running for the first time in a while. And thinking I'm going to sacrifice, you know, I'm going to do this and then I'll have to deload next week because I'm over training. Right? No deload necessary. Not even close to it. I wake up, you know, what is today? Today, Monday? Wednesday. I wake up Monday thinking I was going to be shot because I trained Sunday as well. Totally fine. Like, totally fine. That doesn't make any sense at all other than phallostatin therapy. It's the only variable. I haven't changed anything else. I haven't increased testosterone. I haven't taken a damn thing otherwise.

I have increased protein intake just because I was pretty under protein when it comes to muscle building before maybe 100 150 grams a day for a long time now I've been supplementing with grass-fed whey isolate and grass-fed whey concentrate every couple hours you know you saw me mixing up a shake before we got in here just to make sure positive nitrogen balance that kind of thing and then I'll continue to do my fast so I want to see how this works before and after that you know one of the things that was cool when you talked about it was that that muscle gained if it's 10 pounds is your muscle. It's not like doing a cycle and bulking up and then you deflate when you come off that that 10 pounds gained is kept.

And so that was very interesting to me as well. Even though I don't want necessarily 10 pounds, I want to stay under 230 pounds and I'm 227 right now. The recovery aspect alone has been remarkable, absolutely remarkable. And I feel, you know, I'm curious to push myself even harder and see how I'm recovering from that. You know, within reason, I'm not trying to run a 55K ultra again or do anything crazy. But I love the ability to push myself the way I did when I was in my 20s and respond in a positive way. I feel better.

I'm less sore all the time. Sleep is fantastic. In all the ways I would account for, is this a positive experience? It has been 100%. That is music to my ears. And I am very thrilled to hear about your experience and a couple of comments and thoughts I have for you. What you are describing is there's a resilience pause, like improvement and almost resiliency that people will describe, you know, where you're talking about workouts and recovery back to back. I think it was Dave, Dave was talking about his experience where he was on a back to back travel trip, right? And normally would take it out, he would be taken out by that, but just felt like going. So definitely the recovery, this desire to like, keep going is pretty in line and a non-scientific observation in some of the

patterns that because I have a lot of people around me non-stop now who have done FST who I'm intimately observing you know like my girlfriend's done it I'm with her a lot a lot like all my colleagues have done it right so I'm seeing some of the patterns. And one interesting thing is there is in some people, I see a desire, especially in women are a lot more intuitive, right? I see their desire after doing full statin to consume protein goes up. I mean, you are doing the right thing. You have something that is going to be greatly benefiting you in that area. And to get the full benefit out of it, you want to be consuming more protein, like it's your base building block for muscle. And some things to expand on a little

bit further for your understanding. So myostatin is a lot hotter of a keyword than activin, but myostatin and activin are the two main items that full statin FST is working on, kind of working at them on both of them from a dual angle, working on them, lowering them, not necessarily inhibiting them all the way, like some sort of other gene therapies or CRISPRper whatnot would do

right yeah you're not shutting off you're not shutting them off the way it's kind of doing it is it's binding to the activin and myostatin floating around in your body and then it's also binding to the site so it's like a dual path mechanism to lower them these items are also the cause of a lot of inflammation in the body. So one of the massive pro benefits of doing FST in this format where it's transient in nature, it's very safe with no side effects, is you're having consistent reduction in inflammation. There's people that I have talked to who've done, again, some of these things are non-scientific because for them to be actual proof, you would have to conduct a study, log it, track it, again, back to the N of one, but it's more than N of one. People will notice an improvement in their digestion, you know, after doing full statin.

They have nothing else they can attribute it to.'s the biggest differentiator even myself you know i'm not an athlete man a few years ago i was 350 pounds and now i may be the most doped up pickleball athlete actually now out there maybe i shouldn't have said that but you know yeah the recovery and the stamina And I don't know if you actually noticed the hand-eye coordination. That actually also goes up because there's an interesting correlation that is not a direct impact or a benefit of full statin. That's the cognitive boost. The cognitive decline in your daily life is happening from environmental factors aging but ultimately a lot of it is tied to um inflammation in the brain right whether somebody has mold in their house or they're eating some sort of seed oils or something that's not very good for them the

inflammation is just like it's a constant battle right they do fst all of a sudden the inflammation drops and now there's a cognitive boost. FST is not directly linked to giving you a cognitive boost, but there are these very interesting ancillary benefits. And for me personally, you're kind of not in that category because you're already somewhat of a superhuman, right? I am not. But for people like me who are newly unlocking their health, a huge benefit is, well, my VO2 max was very shit. It's gone up. Well, it's a compound effect.

Because of FST, I'm recovering better. My stamina is better. Now I'm able to play even more pickleball. I'm able to do even more cardio, right? I have just a better, more of a desire to do physical activities, which is very common with full statin. So all of this kind of leads you to these benefits in these pockets. You're leaner, you're faster. Uh, you have more muscle to feel, have more energy. It's a feeling of wellbeing that comes for a lot of people.

Yeah. And, and, you know, one of the, that's, I'm happy you brought up that, the inflammation and the, the, the, the positive side effect of, of better cognitive function. Derek brings up a good point on the podcast where he talks about, you know, the, the potential, the potentially misleading statements, you know, from longevity folks on, you know, lowering, you know, uh, increasing telomere length and lowering biological age. Yeah. Right. So while, while I completely agree with this point, you know, like, and I don't think that's

going to lead people to stop working out or stop eating, you know, well, because if you're into that, you're going to fucking do both. You're going to move. And that doesn't mean lifting weights, but some form of movement, pickleball, hiking, yoga, some form of understanding what your body wants and giving it that stuff. Good, high quality. You know, my buddy, my boy, Chervin, he says he's a qualitarian, right? He's a qualitarian.

He's always paying attention to the quality of his plants and animals. And I do believe that matters a lot. Where was I before qualitarian? Damn it. I just lost my train of thought. Uh, da, da, da,

da, da. Oh, uh, Derek on, on the potentially misleading nature of, you know, saying this will drop your biological age by 27 years.

Right. I have no delusion of grandeur that I'm gonna live to 150 years old. And if some guys do fucking rat, I want to see it. Right. That's another potential of the golds and red rising. They can live a lot longer. Um, if that's happens, awesome, but I want to see it right that's another potential of the golds and red rising they can live a lot longer um if that's happens awesome but i want to live well to 100 i want to have full use of my body till 100 i want to be old and decrepit for 20 years like put me to fucking

sleep if i can't move my body and do what i want to do as a human like we have the gift of this physicality i want to be able to use that and um, um, so for the longevity piece, you know, I, I'm not super interested in, in, you know, having some falsified hope of having a very low biological age, but at the same point, when I finished fighting and I got to, um, I got to on it, we took tele years, a tele, telomere test from tele years. And I was 10 years older biologically than chronologically right now i don't know if i'm gonna die 10 years sooner but the getting hit in the head and in football getting hit in the head and fighting staying out late partying using bad drugs like coke and and pressed ecstasy pills shoved in the poop chute like Like I ran it hard. Sounds like good drugs to me. I ran it hard, you know.

I ran it hard and I burnt the candle at both ends for 15, 20 years. You know, I went hard to the paint and it showed in my internal systems. So I am actually excited for the potential reversal of some of the damage I caused to myself by being a knucklehead when I was young. Hey guys, I want to take a quick break to tell you about an amazing new sponsor called Vaya. Vaya is absolutely incredible. What they've done for CBD and cannabis is absolutely changed the game. They have some of the best gummies on planet earth, and I want to tell you all about it. Trusted by over half a million happy customers, Vaya is the Swiss army knife of wellness, dedicated to harnessing the natural benefits of hemp to create high quality wellness products. VIA's collection

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check out the link to via and the show notes in the description, use code KKP to receive 15% off. And if you're new, you get a free gift of your choice. After your purchase, they ask you where you heard about them. Please support the Kyle Kingsbury podcast and let them know that we sent you. This year, enhance your everyday with VIA. Visit https://via.co.kkp. I was going to end the conversation or lean into a lot more of the longevity benefits for

full statin next. So I'm glad you brought it up. Here's the interesting thing. A human brain is just not equipped to deal with how they are, to deal their longevity benefits for full statin. You can't keep, you have to do a test to get your telomeres checked right, the length of your telomeres. You can't, you don't even know what your bone density is. Like you can't feel your bone density really shifting overnight. Full statin halts the loss in your bone density and actually moves it in the other direction. As we age, our bone density just keeps going down the longevity benefits, you know, just from that one benefit alone, the anti-inflammatory benefit,

that's a positive, that's a cascade effect, whether inflammation, whether high inflammation or reduction inflammation, reduction inflammation will have a positive health on the benefit in a cascade fashion right same as if you have elevated inflammation here you will have elevated inflammation somewhere else it's just it's a it's a long chain effect all interconnected yeah all interconnected and the longevity benefits of FST are there, there. We have measured them. And I, the technology for measuring, you know, your biological age, this is, I would say, infancy-ish stage. Okay. This is going to evolve a lot further, very rapidly in the next many years, way faster than it has previously. So personally, I, we, maybe I can even say our company, we're not married to a specific test or accuracy of it.

Data is very valuable, right? We're just clocking in data. We know it works. It reverses your age. I would not say that it's like, oh, somebody who does FST, this transient therapy, mini circles, gene therapy, that's in their body for up to a year, year and a half, whatever the number is, depending on the person that now they're going to live 30 years longer, 26 years longer, that there's so many things that go into aging. There's so many systems that you have to navigate right this is one support and this is providing support in an area uh like for yourself it's reversing some of the damage and it's a big win uh for me it's a big win because i don't i can't gauge it i don't have to think about it and i care more about the performance as well for me yeah but that's a big

win that it's happening yeah fuck yeah well uh i guess one of the questions that's going to come up is you know how how how do i get my hands on this treatment how can i do this um is it available yet to the public all that stuff and then where can people find out more about what mini circle has coming up uh what would be the availability for clotho and different things that you guys create to the public and things like that i think those are all questions people will have yeah the easiest thing to do we are currently uh when is this podcast coming up based on that i can reveal some end of the year early january probably early it'll be in january actually. Okay. Okay. Fantastic. So we are available in Honduras on an island, Roatan in Mexico,

Cabo, hopefully expanding to new locations very, very soon. And I think by the time this podcast come out, Bahamas as well. And we are working in other jurisdictions as well on the other side of the hemisphere. And the cool, I love the way your information is organized. I love it. Thank you for leading it. It's very good for the listeners. The price point of this therapy is very within reach for a lot of people. Gene therapy historically, well, not even historically, even presently, is kind of out

of reach for a lot of people. You're minimum spending, you know, a few hundred thousand dollars on gene therapy. Many circles gene therapy, the FST is 25,000. So that's something, you know, we actually didn't even talk much about how full statin has worked in interventional capacity for people with muscular dystrophy, because that's a small subset of group, but still very significant that there are ailments that have found FST to be tremendously beneficial. I just wanted to touch on that because a lot of our focus has been on optimization. So that's the price point of the therapy. The locations I've already named, the easiest way probably to find the therapy is to visit our domain minicircle.io

M-I-N-I-C-I-R-C-L-E.io or.clinic. Easily searchable. We were kind of, you know, just in developmental stage, just developing the therapies and working very organically, but we are soon going to be, uh, becoming a lot more public therapy is available now. Um, as soon as other therapies come out, you know, cloth, though, we will post on our website. will probably have uh a lot of pr around it so people will find out super cool where can people get with you if they have other questions and things like that you're on instagram twitter any of that uh yeah we haven't launched our social media officially yet uh but we will uh i think uh just going on the website there's a form you can fill out and uh it will route us question, whatever you want to know.

Yeah. Jay, it's been fucking awesome. I look forward to seeing what unfolds in the future. And I'm definitely, if nothing else, being incredibly mindful of what my life looks like for the next 16 months. So thank you for that. Appreciate you, brother. And let's play some pickleball. Yeah, yeah.

I am excited. I would be excited when we do your next fall of statin and man wait till you experience the cloth hole it will blow your mind yeah yeah thank you brother fantastic much love