Kyle Kingsbury Podcast - #406 The Stages of Consciousness & Integral Lineage w/ John Churchill

Episode Date: May 17, 2025

Welcoming John Churchill, a scholar dedicated to the study of consciousness through spirituality, philosophy, psychology, and more. Kyle shares how he met John through mutual friends and has been consistently impressed by his depth of knowledge and insight. The conversation delves into a range of topics including the nature of consciousness, developmental stages of human growth, and how culture and society evolve. Using a structured approach, John breaks down the initiatory processes necessary for personal and collective evolution. He discusses the levels of initiation from physical health to emotional and mental development, and finally, to the realization of interconnectedness on a planetary scale. The episode covers the importance of embodying spiritual wisdom, understanding historical contexts, and integrating various cultural and developmental stages to create a cohesive and progressive society. John also addresses the critical need for modern initiatory systems that can guide people through these developmental stages effectively. The podcast episode is rich with insights on the interplay between individual growth and collective cultural evolution, emphasizing the importance of holistic and integrated approaches to human development.   Connect with John here: Planetary Dharma Instagram John Churchill w/ Paul Chek   Our Sponsors: Get back to nature. Go to EarthRunners.com and use the code KKP at checkout for 10% off.   Beam Kids is now available online at shopbeam.com/KKP. Because you’re a listener to my show, you can take advantage of their limited time pricing of up to 35% off PLUS 2 free gifts using code KKP. Looking for Shilajit? Head over to blacklotusshilajit.com and enter code KKP to receive 15% off your order   Connect with Kyle: I'm back on Instagram, come say hey @kylekingsbu Twitter: @kingsbu Fit For Service Academy App: Fit For Service App Our Farm Initiative: @gardenersofeden.earth Odysee: odysee.com/@KyleKingsburypod Youtube: Kyle Kingbury Podcast Kyle's Website: www.kingsbu.com - Gardeners of Eden site If you enjoyed this podcast, please subscribe & leave a 5-star review with your thoughts!

Welcome back to the podcast. We've got John Churchill on today. I know I met him through Aubrey Marcus, but I can't remember if I met him in Sedona or here at the farm, but every moment I've spent with him has been special. He is truly a remarkable person, has dedicated his life to understanding

the nature of consciousness via spirituality, via the world at large, philosophy, psychology, you name it. He has really taken a deep dive academically and, you know, just in his day-to-day living, which is really cool. It's remarkable to meet somebody who has such a wealth of knowledge in these areas. And I had heard him on Aubrey's before and I was like, man, I got a podcast with him at some point and he was recently on Paul Chex and I was just like fuck I gotta right now it has to be right now so I wrote Paul get me John Churchill please and John texted me I didn't have his last name in the phone I was like well fuck

we already got each other's number it's like let's do it so I hope this is the first of many podcasts with John I absolutely loved it you know I explained this on the podcast but there was one part in particular and I'll link to the Paul Chek podcast I think it, I explained this on the podcast, but there was one part in particular, and I'll link to the Paul Cech podcast. I think it's a great one in and of itself. But there was a piece of that podcast that really struck a chord with me, and it had to do with the structure stages of consciousness

and the fact that some people can be at one level, but not completely. You know, I have one level in stages versus states, you know, where if you're just in the place, or if you actually have made it to the stage. And, you know, where you're just in the place or if you actually have made it to the stage. And, you know, in big part it's I want to know where I'm at. You know, I want to be able to self-reflect and say what actually feels right to me about where I'm at in this, in the level of the game and where am I heading?

And as a culture as well, right? Because there's the I and there's the all and there's the in between and just understanding that we're all going somewhere Nobody stays in the same place I really think about this too with where we're at in the world today and John doesn't beat around the bush with it is the fact that Even when it comes to the body, you're never stagnant. You're never staying in place. You're either moving forward or you're moving backward and Yes, there is treading water and I get all that it It's not, you can't always be literal with it, but society itself is heading somewhere.

And so are we, we're each on our own trajectory. And I think if we have the map of what it looks like, what these structured stages of consciousness look like, and what they feel like, what are the traits and the qualities of them, I think they can greatly benefit us to know where we're headed. And not surprisingly

I joked about you know the number of people in Austin who are into plant medicines and and there's a place for that, right? There absolutely is But we break that down to where is that on the the hierarchical stages of consciousness? And that's pretty I was fucking fascinated. So I'm super stoked to have him on. I will do it again for certain and excited to just learn from him and continue to grow with him. So thank you, John. There's a number of ways you can support this podcast, share it with friends, leave us a five star rating with one or two ways. The show's helped you out in life and support our sponsors. They make this show possible. All right. Without further ado,

my brother, John Churchill, John Churchill. Welcome to the podcast, brother. Thank you, Kyle. It's a pleasure to be here. This is great. I love the setup. You have such a beautiful Mandala in the background.

I didn't get a chance to see, you know, when you did the podcast with, with our friend, Paul check, obviously I got to meet you through our dear brother, Aubrey Marcus, and I've just loved every minute I've been able to spend with you. So I'm super stoked for this. I was particularly inspired by the conversation you're having with Paul because, you know, Paul gets into Gene Gebster's work and Ken Wilber, right? And obviously you've studied under Ken for a long time and that's meaty work for the average person to really dig their hands into and sink their teeth into. But one of the things in particular that you said that was very important was on the structured stages of consciousness, how you can't miss something, right?

Like what's the term for it? We transcend but integrate, right? You have to bring it within. And you can't be out, you can be at one stage and have forgotten the sacredness of nature, you're missing the whole fucking thing, right? So I would love to dive into first you, and then you, I'd love to dig right into that conversation

on the structure stages of consciousness. What do these ladders look like? The sacredness of our world. I think that was probably one of the most important realizations I've ever had on my first few journeys with Ayahuasca was seeing that for myself, that the visceral nature of everything is alive Everything is conscious everything's embedded with soul and the vitality of spirit that I am with

Like to see that not reading the book was just like holy shit. Wow You know to see the sacredness and all things so Obviously, it's different with somebody experiences that for themselves firsthand versus just speaking about it But for those that haven't experienced that, to know that that is the possible truth, that it is a possible truth, yeah, I think it's such an important piece. But first, you know, I'm rambling now.

First, tell me, where did you begin? I always wanna know. You've been topping me. You're already like, ha ha ha ha. I'm ready to go. I'm excited to have you brother. When you were young, talk about life growing up. Where did your interest start with things like this and what really drew you into the field that you're into?

Okay, great question. So my first memories are of astral projecting around the house as a child. So my first memories are playing ball in the dream state. So I lived in a big family, a seven-storied house in London. And so I would fly down the stairs at night and play on the banisters. And I didn't realize, you know, that was just stuff that I thought was the, you know, that's what we did. And then, you know, we grow up, I mean, this is what,

I forget, was it Wordsworth that called that the trailing, what is it, the trailing fires of glory or something like that. Like, you know, as a soul you come in, but that stuff, that kind of like ramps down because you've got to adapt to the world, right? Like, and then so, you know, those are my first memories. And also actually, frankly, I used to do yoga on my bed at night, right?

Like four or five years old. I didn't know anything about any of that stuff. It was only later that I was like, oh, okay. This isn't my first rodeo kind of thing. I then, growing up, I had a really traditional elite education, so I sent away to boarding school when I was seven, and essentially trained a really traditional elite education. So I sent away to boarding school when I was seven and essentially trained in like the most elite

kind of English boarding school environment with all of the kind of, I guess you would say like the Illuminati elite, the children of the Illuminati. Frankly, you know, had my 14th birthday party in like, in the offices of, of the Chancellor of the Exchequer in the House of Lords. So you know, I grew up in a really privileged environment. Half British, half Dutch.

My Dutch grandmother, who was a, she was a really interesting woman in and of herself. She was a Baroness. She was an Olympic downhill skier for the Netherlands in the 30s. So she skied in the Nazi Olympics against the Nazis. And she was actually married to a Jewish man. So a lot of, I lost a lot of my family, so to speak.

They went to Auschwitz. So there's a whole history there of facing adversity. And my barometer is, are these practices good when the tanks roll in? Right. So like, you know, how deep is our sacred vow? You know what I mean? So I mentioned her because she started training me when I was like 12 in Jungian psychology

and dream work and divination. So I was lucky that I had a supportive environment from the women, so to speak, of my mother's lineage to support my curiosity in these practices and in philosophy and those kinds of things. And when I was about 15, when that adolescent mind kicks in, because it takes a while to work out, what are you about?

But when that kicked in, that's when I kind of developed a voracious appetite for consciousness, alchemy, Eastern, Western practices, the whole world, ifchemy, Eastern, Western practices, the whole world, if you will, all of the various dimensions of sacred world. So I was really, and at the same time, don't get me wrong, I was a young kid growing up in London. Drug, sex, and rock and roll were an important part

of my adolescent initiation into what's good and true and beautiful about life. So I wasn't a holy of the vow mystic or anything like that. You know what I mean? And then as a 17 year old, I had a pretty strong awakening to fundamental awakening that then led to like the rest of a lifelong process of study and practice. Yeah, so I mean, yeah, I've been doing this for as long as I can remember. That's incredible.

And your education, starting know, starting with the the Illuminati style, you know, the elites. At what point did you really take the reins and say, all right, I'm going to go all in on this and really deep dive in a philosophy? You know, you were 17. You moved, when did you move to stay? Yeah, so I studied with the Tibetans. I spent some time in India, like 17, 18, came back, entered a Tibetan monastery because I was really interested in studying the Tibetan initiatory systems. After about a year and a half there, I realized that they're really, the pedagogy, the learning science, which just wasn't good enough for me. Like I really like, you know, like lineages move really slowly. And as a contemporary Westerner,

we like to learn things efficiently. And so when I was 22, after finishing that, I came to the United States to study at Naropa, which is a contemplative university here in Boulder, Colorado. I got my degree there in contemplative psychology and dance. You know what I'm saying? And then after that, at the time I met my wife, after I graduated with my wife, Nicole, who was trying to be a music therapist and Naropa. And then, so that stateside, this is like 19, this is like 99, 2000. Yeah. And so I've been here since that. And along the way gathered a bunch of, you know, degrees. I think I have like a three degrees in psychology, degrees in

Chinese medicine. I mean, that's the academic stuff, you know? And granted, that's just needed in order to, you know, try and bring as much structure and ability to teach with the material that's much more experiential. I love that. Talk a bit about what you're teaching now because you have, you know, programs where you're bringing people through a bit about what you're teaching now because you have, you know, programs

where you're breaking, bringing people through a lot of what you're learning. And I think this is a great way to like dive into part of that conversation that you were having with check, you know, in the stages of consciousness. Okay. So, well, you did have the question around the check around the stages. So, yeah, so part of what my work has been is how do we develop, what are the contemporary initiatory schools? What do they look like and what kind of education is necessary?

I just have my friend Geshe Sonam, who is an abbot of a Bon monastery. So the Bon of this 18,000 year Tibetan lineage that goes back to a Buddha of a prior cycle. So not Shakyamuni, but a Buddha in a previous cycle of history. In his monastery, which is in Nepal and Mustang, they still have people who realize rainbow body, you know, every generation. So every generation they have people

who attain rainbow body. So, you know, my like sense of what's possible is based on those traditions of like, what is the full extent of human development look like? And so part of my karmic duty is working out, okay, how do we rebuild those initiatory processes because that kind of education happens over like 20 or 30 or 40 years. So it's one thing to do a training, right? It's another thing to do a workshop, but it's another thing to like, if we're going to go

the whole way until the day you drop dead, how do we build the institutions and the curriculums that will pick people up at a certain point and then provide them with that kind of education. That's a multi-lifetime project. So, the work that I'm doing right now is essentially building maybe the first four-year curriculum, if you will. Let's say, what's a bachelor's degree? In what I call planetary Dharma, and by planetary I mean,

we're at a time of great synthesis. So even within Tibetan tradition, for instance, there's five Tibetan traditions, they were all separate. So you wanna synthesize the best of those traditions. And then of course, in the West, you have the best of the Western synthesis. And then of course, we have the indigenous, the best of the, you know, and so what does that look like as, you know, as we are going about building, let's say, a tradition that is both indigenous, and by that, I mean it has its roots in the earth and in plants and in animals and goes all the way to the stars.

And so, yeah, the first step is like building that bachelor's level training. I like that. This is a modern initiation school, a modern mystery school. Yeah, and how do you... Exactly, and recognizing that it's actually a multi-decade process. And so what kind of alliances do you need?

And what kind of institutions do you need to build to make that happen? Very cool. Yeah, I mean, being here in Austin, and I'm sure with all the visits you've had, and being in Boulder too, for that matter, you being in Boulder with the third wave of psychedelics, and, you know, just the the the ego's desire for spiritual materialism, you know, that there is this this launch into the astral, there's a there's a desire for the cosmic. There's a, oh, I'm fucking Pleiadian or I'm, you got some star system over here, you know, and then this draw,

even if it's less, you know, worded in egoic ways, it can still leave kind of what our work is here as less than important, right? It's almost like, even like you think about the new age stuff, you know, it's about ascension. It's about, you know, transcending and like this, you know, let's leave this behind. It's almost similar to, you know,

some of the fundamentalist ideologies of, you know, don't pay attention, this world doesn't really matter. You're just trying to do your best to make it to heaven. It's almost similar in that way. But something I've always loved and really gleaned from indigenous wisdom was that we had a purpose in being here Right like our time now is important and it matters. It's our incarnation matters. We selected to come here at this time and You know the things we see around us are real right? This is I don't it's funny everybody's talking about DMT and the matrix code and all that. I'm like, God might write, write in binary language, but this is, I don't think we're in a simulation right now. Not when I can talk to trees and have

hummingbirds let me know my son's about to be born. Like I've had too many, too many things happen to me like that dead sober or not that verified otherwise that, that, you know, the consciousness exists in all things. All right guys quick break to tell you about Beam Kids all-in-one super powder. It just launched and you need to get your hands on it today. It has more than 40 essential ingredients to fuel healthy growth including greens, pre and probiotics, fruits and vitamins and what's even better it comes in chocolate milk flavor that kids absolutely

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Get your Beam Kids and your free gifts by heading over to beam.com slash KKP. Enter the code KKP, that's beam.com slash KKP and use KKP for up to 35% off. So what I would say is the tradition that I teach from, if you will, has both its kind of, let's say, galactic and solar and planetary dimensions to it. So, just because you're awake,

so awakening to one's galactic dimensions, the more you're bringing it down into matter, the process of maturity is actually a process of descent. For instance, the great mystery in Christianity is the mystery of the incarnations, the mystery of how deeply can you descend into matter, because it is the higher, the higher realizations are like greater degrees of light

that allow you to penetrate down, not like ascending. You know, if you think of an alchemical model where like, let's say there's processes of distillation and condensation and separation, and you're engaged in a chemical process, there is something to be said for ascent, or what's called the albedo, the whitening phase. But the actual goal, first the goal is to understand

that it's not an individual, we are part of a species, we're part of a cohort, that our karma is intricately linked to one another and to that of the planets. That's the first thing. So the planet itself is also going through its own initiatory process to become a being. And the way that you and I would describe that being

would be to become an integrated garden university of truth, beauty and goodness. So what a planetary system is meant to become is a university system. If you can imagine our planet, you know, 200 years from now integrated university system where everything is based around education in terms of deepening in beauty, deepening in goodness and deepening in truth. So that's the, from a kind of, let's say, cosmic perspective, what's the function of us being here is to help give birth to that world. So that actually, it's more a process of a flower

so that actually it's more a process of a flower blossoming from spirit and into matter. The blossoming process into matter, what I call the rose of the world, that is why we're here. It's to infuse matter with spirit, an open spirit into matter so that this, so our beautiful planet becomes, you know, planet of goodness and beauty.

So that is, that is deeply aligned with the indigenous wisdom, but it's informed by like the best of, let's say like kind of planetary and galactic tech that actually, you know, the true indigenous, true indigenous indigeneity is both completely local, right, and planetary and galactic, it's the whole way through.

So the initiatory systems of our future, your kids will begin their journey by learning the songs of the plants and the animals and the local environment, right? So we rediscover what's an indigenous. And then as we grow into our understanding of science, then we go deeper into that. So we go from the stories and kind of of the plants

and animals and into actually studying them in science, but not just like the kind of desacralized science that we've had, but the kind of informed sacred science. And from there you kind of grow into the more, let's say, planetary and universal dimensions. So that's the lineage, if you will. So you can think of me, I'm like a Buddhist druid, right? A Buddhist druid, right?

And yes, you're right. Like, it's not about ascent, you know, our brothers and sisters who are like into that are unfortunately being misled by the forces of darkness for want of a better term. Like, you know, we're involved in a significant struggle on this planet at this time. I mean, there is a narrative, right? And of course you can look at the narrative as a love story. You can look at it as a divine comedy, but it's also a war.

And so part of the PsyOps to distract people is to like send them into a kind of a Luciferian ascent. By Luciferian I just mean like spirituality that's actually glamored. By that I mean it's not aligned with a collective process and therefore it's kind of, it can be easily, you can use it to manipulate people to have them just check out of taking full responsibility. I think a lot of people listening to this have likely listened to and I'll link to in the show notes in case they haven't, but the five hour walker of a podcast, solo cast that Paul did on Christ Lucifer and Armon

from Steiner's teachings goes into that so deeply, but I completely agree. It is, you know, Luciferic is Steiner's way of wording that, right? But even if you didn't have that, just this desire, it's almost an escapist desire of being, you know, greater than thou, right? Like how do I become this thing at the cost of my humanity? And there's a funny quote, one of my favorite quotes from Alan Watts and Ram Dass, who was

in one of Ram Dass's lectures, he said, you know, he was drinking with Alan Watts and Alan Watts says, you know, your problem is, Dick, your problem is, you've forgotten your humanity, you either want to get high on LSD, or you want to get high for meditation, but either way, you're trying to stop being human, you need to love being human. You're human, right? And like that that landed in me, because I've had periods in my life where it was like, wow, this shit exists, ayahuasca and all, you know, it's like, let's go and go and go.

Let me beat the drum. And then, you know, like, okay, how do I integrate that? You know, like how much is too much? How often is too often? Am I actually learning anything? Am I changing my life? Or just telling a fucking story about some cool vision I had? And where, how do I know?

You know, how can I actually sit with this? And, and over enough time, really recognizing that that channel is always open, right? I think that was probably one of the biggest takeaways for me is, is coming to a point where I no longer needed to write my intentions down and my questions for ayahuasca or my questions for psilocybin, but just recognizing, Hey, I can go sit in a chair, close my eyes and just ponder and hold this. Let me contemplate on this. And even though the answer may not come to me immediately, it is gonna come to me.

It will be shown to me either through the 3D or through my own gnosis that channel is always there. And I think that's an important one too. Yes. right? And I think that's an important one too. Yes. I mean, what, I mean, what you're describing is, is the natural maturation process of the fact that you were truly motivated in the right way, enough to like make all the mistakes and, and, and keep going to the point that you begin to develop wisdom because direct experience isn't the same thing as wisdom. You do need direct experience to cultivate wisdom,

but you can have nonstop direct experience and it doesn't actually change you, right? I think the challenge that we face is that let's take ayahuasca or any number of these psycho technologies, so ayahuasca or dark retreat or meditation. Within their traditional context they are all part of an initiatory system. And those initiatory systems are calibrated to the particular developmental needs of a specific culture. And so you can't, like, you can think you can do a DIY, and to some extent, many of us have had to,

but actually what is needed is that educational system that places those, so that you're not having to try and do it by your, make meaning by yourself. Let me give you an example. Let's look at the difference between Christian contemplative practice. And let's think of that as a technology. Like it could be ayahuasca,

but it's Christian contemplative practice, right? And it's happening over a couple of thousand years in Europe. And the Catholic Church are making sure that they separate all the mystics. So everyone's developing their own language. They're kind of isolated in their own monastery. And so you get these great beings, Maestro Eka, Teresa of Avila, Saint Francis of Assisi.

But they're not allowed to talk with one another. And so nothing really gets developed because everyone's talking in their own language, okay? Kind of similar to the fact that everyone's doing their ayahuasca, they're having their experiences. I have my truth and you have your truth. You have your, okay? That whole thing is happening.

Okay, let's compare that to the Tibetan Academy where they agreed upon a very distinct, like a set of parameters and the language, a technical language, a developmental language that describe both states and stages of maturity and with a really precise phenomenological language that could describe direct experience and then ran a quarter of their population through that Academy over a thousand years. Now if you're having people like if you and I have a technical language

that we can start talking about experiences from, then what happens is the field evolves. What we have right now in the West is it's not, it's, it isn't yet organized enough for it to become an actual civilizational initiatory system so that it can actually, so that it can actually, so that we can actually build on something and go somewhere, because it needs that degree of structure. And this kind of leads in actually to the developmental pieces,

is that most of the people who beginning the journey, when they begin the journey in our culture, that I don't fucking tell me what to do, I don't want any priests, I don't want any like rules. I just want to have the direct experience, which is actually a particular developmental stage, which is great. But the truth is, is we've been there for 40 years, really. So that kind of leads into the discussion just around these stages of development.

I think the first thing to understand is this is the major piece that is lacking on our planet right now. If development was understood, human development was understood, and it is understood, but it's been pushed into a, it was pushed into a side room in the academy when the postmodern folks came in in the 60s. So what happened was the same kind of woke, the kind of woke mind of like, we're all the same. When that became more popular in the 60s,

those who had been doing research on development were pushed away because hang on a second, that narrative that some people are more developed than others doesn't fit into the fact that we're all equal. And actually both are true, right? Both are true. So I think the thing to understand historically is why this is missing.

And the catastrophe that's happening because it's missing, because it means development isn't a part of the conversation of politics or education or mental health, or it's not part of understanding what's happening on our planet and there's no way that you can understand the cultural wars and what's happening on our planet without understanding development. It's the strangest thing. Like if we had a UN department or a you know part of the American government and even schools actually understood what development was about,

we would have a significantly different civilization within a decade, right? So this is, so just context for the listeners, this is a piece that's been missing. It's a significant missing piece. That's what I think, so that's the, as you mentioned, my friend mentor, Ken Wilber has done a significant amount of like bringing together multiple systems

of developmental psychology. So you can think of the work done on human development over the last hundred years in the West as the Western tradition of the sacred. Like our minds are really good at looking at structure, including like the structure and architecture of a building, but also the structure and architecture of the psyche. Right?

And that isn't everything, but I think it's really important to recognize where our super skills are. We can build Boeing 747s or whatever they are with a level of architecture in detail and put a DVD player in front of everybody's face and fly people across the Atlantic. So we have a capacity for architecture

that is actually one of our super skills. And I think what's happened is the kind of the avant-garde, if you will, the boomer Buddhists or the burner Buddhists, if you will, have thrown out that sacred wisdom with the bathwater. So that understanding of human development, what does it give us? It gives us an outline of human development, what does it give us? It gives us an outline of the ladder,

the developmental ladder that each of us go through from infancy all the way to the level of, let's say, a Buddha. And what most people don't understand is actually all those higher transpersonal stages have been well studied enough now that we understand all the stages through that. So it's not, we're not talking about something that just looks at the personal development. We're talking about a ladder of pre-personal, personal, and transpersonal development.

Now, understanding that ladder is super important because it's not just a process of climbing the ladder, it is a kind of alchemical process of like you go down and you do some cleaning up, right? Some shadow work, and then you come back up and you head up to the highest states and you come back up and you head up to the highest states and you come back down. So you have to, knowing those stages, those rungs, and how we move our way through them, through cleaning up, through kind of shadow work,

through waking up, which is kind of like non-dual work, through growing up, which is developmental work. Those three fundamental dynamics are dynamics that all of your listeners are engaged in, but knowing the difference between those dynamics and where they're working on that ladder is super important. Does that make sense? Yeah, that makes a huge, huge sense. It's actually something I've always been, I've been curious about it since first hearing Paul

really break down that because it's kind of, to me, it's a, you know, where have I been? Where am I at now and where am I going? You know, it starts to, it gives me a framework to look at potentially, you know, and it's not like, it's not like a, you know, climbing the corporate ladder, let me chase this thing now, need to improve myself or a never ending need to,

you see people doing nonstop shadow work. They're always in the shadow work. They're always working on the thing. And this is kind of funny is it's like, maybe if you went back to joy and some of the other good stuff, that might resolve itself, but you're kind of staying stuck here.

Absolutely. People get stuck in the chase, right? But I do like having an idea of a framework that allows me to see, like, what is a possible trajectory for me, both me personally and a possible trajectory for us as a species to work towards. And what does it look like when we're there? Right. And this, yeah, absolutely.

Well, first thing, and a number of things here, first is it's not a growth to goodness model. What does that mean? It doesn't mean that like, we're not trying to get anywhere fast. What's the point? The point is, is good, slow lovemaking, not fast, get it all done and then that's it, right?

There is a pace that trees grow in, the flowers unfold in, the families are born in. So there's always gonna be the pricks who think it's a race to the end. But we're not talking about that. Like actually what we're talking about is you really understand these stages. They're the stages that love and care and wisdom unfold through. And you can fake it by kind of like doing it with your mind. But we're not talking

about that. That doesn't interest me. What I'm talking about is like, it's how, which is what you're intuiting, how does somebody unfold in the fullness of their life? Now the other point is, is when that's integrated into, let's say, the planetary, into the great wisdom traditions, the narrative becomes multi-incarnational. becomes multi-incarnational. So what that means is it doesn't end. It doesn't end. So if it doesn't end, part of the journey is learning how to journey and what's the right speed

for learning to happen because it doesn't end. There's no like, do you know what I'm saying? Like, so why, where are you hustling to? That's actually a funny point because I think one of the, Paul knows this story well, but one of the points where I broke my mind, you know, with a good journey was in the realization of it never ending, right? So like me grappling with eternity was just like, what the fuck? Where there is no ending, there is no point to it all. It doesn't matter what I do now or what I do later, other than how it makes me feel right now. So there is a point paradoxically, but there's no, you know, for wherever we go, we just keep going, right? There's no stopping it,

no ending it. That's right. There's no finish line ever. And that's a really, to say that is one thing, but to really experience that as a holy shit, there's no fucking finish line. That's right. Like there's no ending to the game. It's forever and ever and ever and ever and ever.

Like that's a whole, that's a rabbit hole. But I do appreciate, as we're talking about stages and things like that, and pace. Pace is a big one. I think you use the analogy perfectly with Love Me. Is it across the finish line right away, 16-year-old fucking I win? Or is it how do we play this out,

how we stretch this experience and just live at this level right now, truly connected to one another, you know, in our pleasure and as it happens organically when it finishes, fuck yeah, you know, and we just rest in each other's embrace, right? That's a different experience as well. That's right. So before we even talk about stages, those stages have to unfold within sacred time. So the first conversation is really around like the frame because, and that goes back to the battle on the war that we're having on this planet for who owns the time.

Because the time that you live in is the meta narrative that defines what's happening. And so we're in a time, we're in a time war, if we want to put it in a better term, who owns the time? And time actually structures consciousness. So the timing that we live in and the frame that we live in affects how our consciousness sees the world.

And therefore, of course, the very problem that you are pointing to of the possibility of some people just wanna hustle through the stages is because we don't live in sacred time. So sacred time, you know, the planetary tradition is essentially what we call a Kalachakra, a time wheel tradition. And the tradition of the time wheel, which you see in every culture, is the understanding

that actually the time and timing is the central archetypal intricate, it weaves all dimensions together. And by dimensions, I mean it weaves your psychological dimension, yours, with the cultural dimension, with your physiology and with the systems that you live in. Time is a factor that integrates all of those, from the beat of your heart to the timing of how your children are developmentally unfolding, to the timing of the festivals of the calendar and the culture, to the timing and the movement of economic systems and political systems. So from a planetary perspective, from a galactic perspective, if you will, when you want to

intervene into a planet and facilitate a planetary phase shift, you have to actually come in at the level of time. And of course, we all live in some funky calendar system that was inherited from the Romans. So we're still living in empire time. And as long as you're living in empire time, you're going to have those empire like shadows of hustle, as opposed to sacred time. What would that mean? That would mean that you would appreciate and understand that the movement of the planets and the movement of culture and psychology and the movement

of your breath and your body are all interrelated. And it would use metaphors of music, i.e. harmony, coherence, symphony, synergy, as a language to describe human development individually and culturally and systemically. So because we don't have that, right, or that's the fight, like that's what has to be implemented because once that's the fight, that's what has to be implemented. Because once that's implemented, you get massive cultural coherence and you get planetary transformation. So that all being said, because we could look at these stages through the lens of what happens

when you evolve within the sacredness through these stages, and what happens when you evolve within the sacredness through these stages and what happens when you evolve through like empire through these stages because you will grow through these stages, but there's a kind of healthy way of doing it and there's a fucked up way of doing it. Quick break to tell you guys about Black Lotus Shilajit. Tired of the same old low quality Shilajit, Black Lotus Shilajit is here to revolutionize your wellness routine. We're committed to purity, transparency, and affordability. Our unique processing method uses only water

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I love these guys. They have a raw honey mixed with Shilajit. That is fantastic. I use the honey one in tea. Sometimes I'll do it in coffee. I really like the black tar in coffee. It seems to mix well, frothing up, you know, the hot stuff with the Shilajit always works,

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So like the first world, if you will, which GEPs are called the archaic is, you know is when we're born as children, we're born into being, we're just animals. We are like instinctual intelligences. And of course an animal is also sacred. I mean, animal, anima means soul. So we're like embodied souls. There was a time within the vast cycle of history,

and by vast cycle of history, I mean taking into consideration the rise and falls of Atlantis and Lemuria. So on one hand, we have the sacred time as like the time wheel, which describes the rising and falling of civilizations. So that's happening. But then there's also a kind of developmental process that is linear and can happen at any one moment

in any civilization. So it's not that this model means that we're continuing to improve and that we are the best that there's ever been. It just means that this is how people unfold and they have unfolded like that through various civilizations that can be completely destroyed.

And then we go all the way back to the beginning again. Does that make sense, Mike? Yeah, think of things like the book, like the Yugos, or the teachings of the Yugos through, via Sri Yukteswar, kind of helps frame that cyclical nature of time. The male linear thinking and the circle in the cycles, female, both existing paradoxically, right? That's what creates a spiral, right? So from this perspective, it's a line, and then from this

perspective, it's a line. And if you take it side, it's, oh, it's a spiral process. So I say that because it's not that we are the most developed that's not that like, we are the most developed that has ever been, but we are the most developed that's maybe happened the last thousand years, just so you get a sense of how those two truths connect with one another. So when I say that, you know, a child would be the child and their animal intelligence. There was a time in history or multiple times where we regress back to, if you will, an animal, a kind of just a sophisticated animal. And there are superpowers that come from that.

Now we've lost many of those superpowers, right? But our sense of smell or intuition, something that, you know, if you hang out with animals, that they kind of, you know, they have those intelligences, right, that we've lost because of the fact that we've been on this developmental journey. So that's the kind of, Geps are called that the archaic stage.

You know, you're gonna see that in your, when you're a parent, you see that when your kids are really, really young, right? And they're just basically a bunch of instinct. So that's one phase. And of course, that intelligence, that archaic intelligence is still here. That's why you do all the somatic work that you do, Kyle,

and make, you know, stay strong and stay embodied because, you know, that helps you stay in contact with the sacredness of your body, of being male, of being a tiger, of whatever, like, whatever is there that is like blood and sweat and endocrine and all of that, that is sacred, right? And that's why embodiment work and fitness is a super important part of the path.

Okay, so our child begins to grow. And at that archaic stage, she was completely fused with everything. And what begins to happen is as the child differentiates and essentially becomes hatched, if you will, they begin to have a little bit more differentiation, which means they're now moving into what Gebser called the magical stage of phase of development. And of course, there's a whole kind of cognitive process that's happening

that Piaget spoke about what the cognition looks like at that level of development. But essentially what we're talking about is like, our children are in a magical world. They are born into the astral. They're like in the astral, playing with fairies, talking to trees. So the dream time is still operational, right? The astral realm.

But within that astral realm, that cognition is magical. So we wanna separate the two. The astral is a real realm. Magical thinking is something that a child does. So magical thinking is like, oh, that tree is talking to me. Now, I'm not, the tree might be communicating to you, like when you were describing,

when the hummingbird in the tree is giving you information, I'm not talking about that. I'm talking about, you know, when your kid is, oh, my iPhone is talking to me, right? We're talking about the fact that they still, the child still has some of their own psychological functioning projected onto the tree or the doll or the iPhone. And so they're kind of having a magical discussion with themselves. Right? Hi, Kyle. How are you? Like you see the, you know, your,

your kids playing in the sand pit, having a conversation with themselves. Hold on. Yeah. They're not necessarily having a conversation with an astral being. They're just in the astral having a conversation with themselves. Does that make sense? It resonates, yeah. Okay. So that doesn't mean... So what does that mean? It means that the magical is a real realm. What does that mean? It means that the magical is a real realm. And so if you're in a magical culture and you mature fully in the magical culture, that's when you hear stories that Hamilton says

about like magical warfare, like shamanic warfare in the astral. That is not the same thing as magical thinking of a child. It's basically shamanic technology used the same thing as magical thinking of a child, it's basically shamanic technology used to manipulate the astral, right? Okay. And of course, it's important to recognize that there are shamanic technologies that have arisen

that manipulate the astral in shamanic cultures, but actually what we'll see is as cultures evolve, they will still maintain the ability to manipulate the astral if that's part of the culture. So what I mean by that, for instance, there was very sophisticated Roman state magic to manipulate the astral. But much bit like magic at an institutional level that like would wipe out any like rattle shaking, you know, Peruvian charmant, because you're talking about empire level magic.

Okay, so we wanna put that on the side because that's a reality. Even though these higher stages as we go through them, because of the nature of how our civilization grew, all that stuff disappeared. Does that make sense? Like, okay, because it, okay. So out of, let's say, out of that magical world of the tribe, slowly, like some egos get stronger,

they get more differentiated. And so this is where you see historically, like the kind of the warlords or the, they are like who aren't, who are like, fuck the shamans. You know what I'm saying? Like, fuck the shamans. You know what I'm saying? Like, fuck the shamans. I've got a spear and a shield. So the ego matures out of that archaic world

through a deeper degree of differentiation, where now I'm like a really differentiated ego. And that then slowly matures into a kind of into the mythic world. And what's that mythic world? So the mythic world is the world really of empire. It's the world where real concrete operational thinking. So this is where language gets, writing gets born as code, as literal code. So at the level of mythic, which is a different level of the brain, it's a level of like, of literal code where what the word says, it literally means that. Right? So this is the Ten Commandments. This is any religious system, imperial system, as like a mythic structure, whether it's Confucian structure, whether it's Roman Catholicism, whether it's even like a woke empire, right? Where basically you're talking about the literal code, literal

application, literal thinking. And it's that that allows for the building of something that's bigger. Right? And that's quite a different kind of cognition than the magical one. Now we're beginning to move into like thoughts, but this is called concrete thinking. So mythic is very concrete cognition, black and white. It's like, it's the cognition of most of Maga, frankly, like it's kind of like, like talking about meat and potatoes and, and of course

that has a sacred dimension too. What's the sacred dimension of that? Well, King Arthur and the Round Table. Like honor, truth, goodness, the virtues, like good traditional family values where you tell your son, you know, like goodness, truth, beauty, forgiveness, these are concepts that are solid, that the psyche can begin to like organize itself around and dedicate itself to, right?

So this is like, you know, where the Jedi code is built, is born at the level of mythic. Does that make sense? Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, right? And you can notice it within yourself, right? It's like, that's a really important dimension of who you are and who the listeners are, is that gives you a sense of ethics of what's right or wrong, and also commitment to something larger. The mythic, when it's healthy,

is committed to the civilization. So it's my religion right or wrong, my nation right or wrong, I will die for my nation, and you see it in large ritual activity that we call the military, right? Like all of this shit, it's all mythic structure ritual on a map, it's ritual organized so it can become a weapon.

Right, and I think of the Romans, organized ritual versus like, you know, screaming Visigoths on mushrooms, trying to like berserk their way through. I mean, there's a sacred dimension to that warfare too, but it's not the same thing as the kind of mythic mind of the Romans. Yeah. Does that make sense? Yeah, absolutely. Cool. And the structure of the code, you know, when you think about the difference between someone going berserker, you know, from the Norse lands versus like, you know, like a very tactically based, sound-based,

well-trained machine, you know, that's applied. That's right. Yeah, it's the difference between a berserker and a ninja or a samurai. So the process of tempering the personality has to happen through that mythic process. It's also for you and for me and for our listeners, this is where the narrative of like

the narrative structure of your life is. So like to the extent that you're living a narrative that is like good and true and beautiful, you can draw upon deep strengths of your ancestors and of narrative and story and mythic stories of the past because you feel like you are part of them and they are part of you, right? And again, that isn't just mythic in the past,

it's mythic like people who join the military or who are like really, I'm a real committed patriot, have a strong mythic dimension to them, right? That is sacred. Okay, so that's like the mythic world. So we've all, like you and me and our listeners, we've journeyed through those three worlds already in our lifetime, right?

We then move into in our lifetime, right? We then move into modernity, to the modern world. So we're kind of born out of this mythic world. In this cycle, we're born out of it. In a major way in the Renaissance, it starts to open up. And then it flowers in the enlightenment, right? In the great enlightenment of Western civilization. So rationality comes online.

The ability to really see things in terms of third-person perspective, objective, like the mastering of objectivity, it begins at mythic, it's mastered at modern. Third-person, mastered. You can think of the journey thus far as a journey, first person, second person, third person. So here we are at third person. Empiricism, scientific method, objective, rational, discriminatory, analytical, yeah?

Like being able to take a perspective on yourself that is completely objective so that you can even think objectively about your thinking. Right, mythic doesn't think about its thinking, it just is. And if you're not thinking like I'm thinking, I'll burn you at the stake. But if you think like I'm thinking, we're buddies for life. You know what I'm saying? So what's interesting in the West and in our multi-dimensional story

is that it's at that point at mythic, because of the nature of Rome and how Rome decided to try to manipulate and destroy our own Western indigenous mystery traditions, our Mythic was whitewashed. So if you could imagine, it could have been just like, think of the full color of Peruvian shamanism. I mean, the full color of the shirt that you're wearing, okay. And that's like at magical. Imagine that we didn't lose, if we hadn't have lost that, we lost that and it became the black priest's robes. Because what happened is Rome basically went to war against the mysteries of the West.

So the same generals that destroyed the Roman temple, the Jewish temple, turned around and destroyed the Druid mystery schools. So the wiping out and the eventual closing of let's say the mystery schools, like the Elysian mystery schools, like 300, 400 CE, the ending of magical, if you will, or even the ending of a mythic that was informed by that.

The reason this is important is so that we understand what kind of modern that we have. We have a modern that's stripped of the sacred. But that's not what modern means, okay? Let me give you an example. The greatest Western creatives, Isaac Newton, for example, 90% of his work was on spiritual alchemy. So if you can imagine a modernity

where the chemistry, physics, biology, archaeology, all of those departments of the academy, of the modern academy, were sacred and full color, that's still modernity. So the reason we don't have sacred Oxford is because of the war of the forces of materialism against the forces of The sacred and that's a and that is a real Multi-dimensional war and it's really important to like point that out Otherwise, you'll think that modernity isn't sacred and that's the that a lot of our brothers and sisters and listeners have made is like,

oh, that's not sacred. No, it's just that that level has been co-opted by empire. And so we don't see it's expression as sacred, right? But it could be. Yeah, I could picture a world just from a health standpoint. If we don't have the Rockefellers take over the American Medical Association and literally rewrite the textbooks on allopathic medicine and what's allowed, you know, you've got the ostracizing and outing of anything herbal, any indigenous teachings.

There's a cool book called Tim, Traditional Iranian Medicine. So this happened in other countries that weren't as influenced by the Rockefellers and our Western view of medicine, where as science came on board, instead of poo-pooing on indigenous cultures and poo-pooing on the stuff that worked, they said, oh, let's actually study this now. Syrian roux. Syrian roux has been used for thousands of years. It can cure cancer. It can cure Alzheimer's, Parkinson's, dementia. It can cure blood sugar issues like diabetes. Let's study the properties of this and see what alkaloids and terpenes and properties make that so. Tim actually verified the plant medicine scientifically. And that's a modern way where you see this meat in a different way than in our culture, correct?

That's right. So modernity existed in ancient Egypt. Modernity existed in ancient Vedic culture. Modernity existed in Atlantis. Modernity always exists when the developmental phase gets to that place, right? Okay. And that's important because, you know, we need to understand that modernity,

you know, the alchemical arts of modernity were able to extend life hundreds and hundreds of years. The point is we already actually have the capacity to do that. It's just that we aren't able to take that intelligence and put it with the sacred and rediscover essentially those kinds of medicines that are an elixirs that allow for regenerative, an extension of life because for want of a better term, empire has monetized necrosis. So empire, and empire is a multi-dimensional,

so most of Empire is not even on the physical. Think more of like, you know, kind of the archons, like in the matrix where like, it's a multi-dimensional. Empire is a multi-dimensional parasite that has existed since Atlantis. Most of it is hidden, but it's still functioning in kind of controlling the, maybe controlling is the wrong word, but influencing the lack of the return of the sacred, because those systems can be used to drain off energy at multiple levels of reality.

So just because the Romans aren't around physically doesn't mean that mentality has gone. When they died, they didn't go anywhere. Right? They just went into another dimension of the planetary system. And of course, this is, and again, this is super important because, you know,

as you said, like, ah, like, Burning Man ayahuasca dudes, yay! Well, like, yeah, at some point, you're gonna have to wake up to the fact that we're actually at war, right? That you're actually like, you're tripping on a battlefield. Right? You're tripping on a battlefield.

Kyle, go and slap that person in the face and wake him up. You know what I'm saying? Like, oh, fuck, there's something happening here. We're not all trying to ascend. The reason why you're unconsciously trying to ascend is actually you're scared shitless about what's actually happening because you're not actually,

like you haven't yet joined the army and therefore you're a kind of tripping out teenage deletante, do you know what I'm saying? Rather than feeling that you've got your arms locked with your brothers and your sisters, and we're gonna win this. Okay, so back to our story. So modernity, we both have a sense of it,

our listeners have a sense of it. Super important, super powerful in terms of what it's able to do, right? Then from there, we matured into, let's say, a relativistic level of development or post-modern level of development or postmodern level of development. And what that enabled us to do was to begin to recognize that some things were missing. Certain truths were missing.

Let's, I'll give you an example. You grew, you grew up in Western civilization through that process. You got to this level of development and you looked over there and you saw the Peruvians and you're like, oh, fuck, like, they've got a host, they've got a bunch of stuff that I could to learn from over there. Let's invite them to the table. So what relativity does, whether it invites the missing, that which, you know, we've gone through those stages up to that point, what got left behind,

what got abused, what got manipulated or pushed down because of the power of modernity, right? Modernity is so powerful, it can cut things out. So what that postmodern stage of development really is, is an amazingly powerful healing phase of let's like invite everybody into the circle, right? I wanna invite everybody into the circle and I wanna hear everything that you have

to say, sister, whatever you have to say, my brother, and your truth is welcome here and valued here. And let's really understand the traumas of the past and the abuses of myth, of like the mythic and the modernity and let's really try and make sure that we include everybody, right? Okay? A really, really noble, very, very noble level of development, right?

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. But that also can go wrong as well. Right? Yeah, that also can go wrong. Have you read The Madness of Crowds by Douglas Murray? I haven't, no. It's a phenomenal book.

He's a character. He's from the UK, young, gay, handsome, conservative, which is a great combo. And in The Madness of Crowd crowds, he really breaks down, you know, when movements go past the finish line, right? So like, so, you know, where you have a feminism, right? That brings upon this disparaging gap between women's rights and men's rights, and they cross the finish line and keep going.

And you end up with like women who hate men and just the whole different, you know, like, right, like it just, and then now you have women in the workforce. They don't, they've never addressed any stage of feminism, motherhood, the importance of motherhood, the sacredness of the role, you know, and if you're working, if you're both working, then who's raising your kids when you have a multi-generational family anymore, when that system has been broken, you no longer live in tribe, right? You're effectively hiring a stranger, doesn't matter how good their Google rating is, to raise your kids. So there's so many things like that, that he really outlines in the book, but yes, you can take anything that's good in nature and take it

past the finish line. You can go too far with any of that. That's right. Now, it's true that that level of development, so if you look at that level of development, so we're calling it relativistic or postmodern, it exists in our society with both a left wing and a right wing.

So for instance, like the left wing part of it is the woke piece that you're pointing to and the right part of it would be, let's say Rogan and Brand, meaning they're actually the same level of development, but the other wing of it in the sense that like, because there's a masculine version and a feminine version, but they actually fight with one another across the aisle.

So every level has a left and right. One of the great confusions of what we're seeing is people at that level, they're not fighting with one another because they're actually holding a polarity. So the masculine polarity, let's say, if you look at Rogan, right, he's a great example of what you're talking about in terms of like trying to balance that.

But notice how many women does he actually have on his show is like 19%. Why? Because it's that like postmodern masculine individualism. So the postmodern expresses it in a number of ways. One is it's hyper individualistic and also paradoxically hyper community as well. The left goes to the hyper community, the right goes to the hyper individualistic.

But it's actually only at the next stage where those get integrated. And the reason I say it's actually only at the next stage where those get integrated. And the reason I say it's important to understand is what often what we've been seeing with the right wing of this level of development is because they can't resolve in their worldview through that worldview, they can't resolve what's happening, many of them start regressing back. Now the regression back to mythic, there's a one piece which is evolutionary here,

which is like recognizing, oh wow, these prior parts were important, like men and women. Like the mythic piece was important, right? However, what you sing a lot of is actually, rather than integrating and go to the next stage, which we would call integral, it's an interesting fusion of, of post-modern with mythic. So there becomes a regressive move back to, let's say, regressive Christianity.

I was just going to say, I was just going to talk about that. You know, I've seen that a lot, you know, as, as in the, since 2020 and all hell breaking loose on a worldwide wide scale. I've seen a lot of celebrities do that from Russell Brand. There are people right, you have big followings who may have even been like from an Eastern background, right? Just all of a sudden it's like, oh shit, good and evil exists in the world. That's clear to me now. Maybe this thing was right the whole time. You know what? I'm going to become born again. I'm gonna get baptized. I'm gonna do whatever fits this model, which now appears to be clear to me, right?

That's why it's really important to get that. And our listeners get it is that's now, I say that because Christianity actually exists at every level, right? So the mythic Christianity would be like serpent handling, talking in tongues, right? Mythic Christianity would be like serpent handling, talking in tongues, right? Mythic Christianity is good Bible bashing, mythic literalism.

A rational Christianity is the great of the kind of humanistic, like rational approaches. Postmodern Christianity, liberation theology. So Christianity goes all the way up, but what we're pointing out here is, is that a kind of a regress, a regressive process, because they intuit, they intuit the need to integrate it, but it's not it's not transcending and integrating.

It's a it's a melting back. And this is why understanding development is so important. And let's say a Christianity as a mystery school itself. And that what we're talking about here are stages of initiation, so to speak. And so you're going to see regression because the postmodern, it's the end of a tier. Like if you don't, the next step up is a radical developmental shift. And if you don't understand the cognitive dimensions of that shift, you're not able to make it happen. And then everything, and then frankly, everything starts to melt. Like if we don't get out of postmodern, out of that relativistic, it will destroy and melt the whole stack, which is what we into it like, oh, fuck this

new world order. It's gonna like, it's gonna blend everything up into something that is, I don't know, like, it's, like it's not a deliberately developmental, it's not good, true and beautiful. It doesn't have- It's a homogenization of men, right? Exactly. And that's what will happen if the 20% of the population who are stuck at post-modern,

and truly the majority of your listeners right now, that's where they are developmentally. But this is to be honest, is that's where you guys are. If we don't move beyond to the next stage, we're gonna have a real, real problem because our culture has had a bottleneck here since the 60s. And the reason why it's so important is the next stage allows for all kinds of organization and effectiveness in understanding the whole stack. So up to this point, each of those prior stages of development, if you

put like, you know, let's say three examples of let's say the example of the postmodern. So let's put somebody like, I don't know, I'll take a let's put like an AOC, right, with like somebody who's like a really strong modern, like, I don't know, with like, um, Oh, gosh, what's his name? You know, who's there like the six foot five motivational speaker? Okay, so Tony is the example of the wisdom of modernity. Do you know what I'm saying? Like, that is the wisdom of modernity. So if you put AOC with like Tony Robbins, with like, who's that?

Evangel, like Graham, the evangelical guy, like, these are all American people that I don't know. Buddy something? I have a hard time remembering the evangelical guys. Yeah, but you know what I mean, like a big- Evangelical in a different way. Yeah, but with an evangelical, like a big Billy Graham. Okay, Billy Graham.

There we go, Billy Graham. We've got Billy Graham, okay. Billy Graham with like Tony Robbins with AOC and then let's throw like a shaman in there as well. They'll both look at each other and they'll go like, what these guys are like, they'll be nice to each other, but they'll think that everybody else is cuckoo.

And the frankly that their worldview is the best worldview. Tony isn't pure modernity, he's actually integral as well, but he's a good example of like, kind of, success. Success. Modernity's code word is success, okay. So essentially the integral phase

is the ability first to like turn around and recognize that developmental process and see it in culture, and see it within yourself, like, oh, wow, I have all of these stages within me. And then begin to recognize that in order to like help heal the spiral, each of those levels has to be healthy. So I've got to like, for you,

I've got to have a healthy body. I've got to have a healthy astral body. I've got to think right. I've got to have a healthy body. I've got to have a healthy astral body. I've got to think right. I've got to have strong mythic commitments. I've got to be success driven, evidence based, be willing to take other perspectives. Be all of those intelligences. I mean, you can think of them as chakras, if you will.

All of those intelligences need to be governed by a hierarchical intelligence, an intelligence that recognizes that these unfold holacically or hierarchically. And you can call that intelligence logoic or logos, right? So when Mark Gaffney talks about the importance of the return of Eros, yes, Mark, you know, Mark Gaffney talks about the importance of the return of Eros, yes, but without right Logos, without Logos and Eros together, without the right

frame and masculine perspective, which is this, this is kind of a masculine phase in some ways, because it provides structure and discernment and say, you know, that then allows for significantly improved cross training, right? So cross training in your life, which is, you know, this is a level of development that you know, because this is what you're teaching to your community, right? Like healthy body, healthy, healthy, emotional life, to your community, right? Like healthy body, healthy emotional life, get your ethics right, your family values, right? Evidence-based, use your intelligence,

apply yourself, be culturally sensitive. That's an integral intelligence. Now, what does that look like culturally? The only image, and this is the, I would say that we have of what that look like culturally? The only like image, and this is the, I would say that we have of what that looks like culturally in a healthy way is Wakanda. Hmm. Right? Like my friend Kalia worked on a project

called Make Wakanda Real. And the whole idea is that that's the imagery, like, okay, in the imagery of Wakanda, you can see all the stages, right? Sacred. There's the sacred body and the animals and that dimension. There's the shamanic dimension with the medicine plants and the ancestors. There's the dimension of strength and power. There's the mythic dimension of the kingdom still there. There's the dimension of science.

There's the dimension of the postmodern all the way up to the tech. And you get a sense of what that... So that's a kind of that is the like that is a myth that is an image an Image of what of what integral could look like Now granted just so you know integral this stage is frankly from the point of view of let's say the planetary tradition halfway up so now we're like halfway up. So now we're like halfway up the ladder. I wanted to ask you, in the

framework of the yugas, you know, there's some debate on, you know, how far we are out of the Kali Yuga if we're still in the last remnants of it, you know, there's these little gaps where you leave a phase and then there's kind of, they blend for a phase and then you enter the next phase, you know, so some have us in the bronze phase already or slightly coming out of Kaliuga, out of the iron age into the bronze. Bronze age is the age of energy, right?

Then we have the mental age, the silver age, and the golden age, the years of enlightenment is the largest blocks back to back ascending and descending on the wheel. And it does appear, at least right now, from a technological standpoint, that we are rising rapidly, technologically and energetically, and potentially we could figure out, you know, maybe the power is the B. I've already snuffed out hydrogen cars and free electricity, who

knows? But point being that we're somewhere in that part of the wheel. It's interesting if that does line up, that from a consciousness standpoint, we're approaching this midline. Yeah, so from the point of view of, at least the tradition that I'm part of that I hold, this is a moment in time that is resonant comically with something similar to happen in Atlantis. Although Atlantis was a different cycle,

so there's been different lessons, but essentially the moment where a technology is born that can bring about liberation or complete control. So in the Kalachakra tradition, in the planetary tradition, this year is understood as basically like very instrumental in terms of which cycle wins. Because from the point of view of let's say

the evolutionary cycle. So once you understand the algorithms of trauma, the algorithms of development. So once the AI understands what trauma is, understands how that is embodied in your body, in my body, in our physiology, in our psyche, in our culture, in our systems, once it understands what development is, so there are actual algorithms that the psyche goes through that are basically mathematical. You know, and some of my friends geeked out and basically wrote out all the algorithms of all the stages all the way up to integral.

Like there's a whole algebra. So if you think of, let's say modernity, I mean, I wasn't in math class, but like there's a whole algebra that describes all of these processes that AI can actually understand. So, let's not have a mythic understanding of the wheel of the cycle of the yogas.

If you master time, if you understand what time is and you master time, you can spin up a golden age. There's no, there's no, like that can be, no, it's not like that. So it's so like a time, so the higher levels of initiation from a galactic perspective are related to the ability to bring sacred time to planets. So we're at this moment where sacred time

could be brought in. And if that was part of the AI, and the AI drove in that direction, you could have quite a fast upload to golden age. Because once you have a cognition that understands that time is an empty construction, time is relative. So at postmodern, you understand that time is relative and at integral, you begin to do cognitions

where you understand that time is empty, which means my consciousness functioning here is also the same consciousness, if you will, that is a million years of the past or the future. And if you have the degrees of realization where you can stabilize that, then you're beginning to get a different kind of cognition that understands time in a different way,

that can then, based on sacred time, if that informs the technology, you can actually have the process unfold sacred time. So it doesn't have to take hundreds of thousands of years. That's kind of based on a mythic level of like cognition. It's basically like a template. It's a tech template. Does that make sense?

Yeah. So, yeah. And the reason why people still think, so at Green, at postmodern, you're gonna be thinking about the yugas as like, oh, millions of years. But as you start moving to integral, you realize there's a whole tech here that is feasible. Right, so galactic, like, you know,

our galactic friends that are like hovering around, like, once you master certain lessons. So there are some lessons that have to be mastered. Part of that is the people at postmodern have to get themselves initiated like in a real way because you can't do it yourself. You're not gonna be able to do it yourself. And they have to be willing to participate

in larger collectives. And because the postmodern folk are highly individualistic, don't tell me what to fucking do, or there's no one higher than me developmentally. Because as I said, just getting to integral is halfway up. So if you realize that there are people, or you know, there are movements that are happening on the planet that are like significant, you know, that you are, let's say, maybe you're a red, I don't mean you, but just maybe one is ready to get entry into and that you're not actually at the peak, you're at the very beginning, because frankly, to have the kind of Dharma army necessary to kind of make this kind of stuff happen, you do need to be organized.

That's the thing about the adversary. Empire has no problem working with hierarchy. So once you get to integral, you begin to realize, oh, fuck, we do need hierarchy because we're in a war. And if we don't, we can't just win this with guerrilla warfare. It needs to be organized, it needs to be structured. That then begins another tier of possibility. But the reason why I think that we're struggling culturally

is because too many people stuck at that post-modern level of development really, and so it's difficult to build hierarchical organizations, holarchical, if I use a term that's more appropriate, that are actually able to then be deliberately developmental and provide the interventions necessary. I'll give you an example. So we were talking about myth, the magical level of cognition, right?

So the magical level that all of our kids, when they're little, function at. Now the magical level is highly responsive to the astral, which means they're highly responsive to the imaginal. Yet we, now, a child at the astral doesn't understand conceptually the journey that I just explained to you, right? Like, if you explain, if you, how old are your kids? Five, five and 10. Okay, so your ten-year-old ten five-year-old would very within five seconds would start yawning and the ten-year-old Would be like start playing with something right wouldn't get it

However, if we took everything I said and we turned it into an imagery and a story They would immediately get the story. They'd be like, oh yeah, I'm gonna grow, I'm gonna grow this way. So even though they're still at an astral, magical level of development, and beginning to become mythic, you can introduce that story of sacred world

and that story of development in such a way that it becomes internalized. And the reason that's so important is the world that wants to be born. So we're now looking at this from a kind of human perspective, right? But if we pull back and you see humanity as a dimension of the newest fear of a planet, So it is the kind of nervous system, higher cognitive functioning of our planetary system, right? So the next, the integral tier leads on a social level is what leads to what we would call a class one civilization,

basically a planetary civilization, a university planet. So it's that imagery and the seeding of that is super important because it's that vision of, oh, we can, like, there's no astral imagery, if you think about it, very little that supports people's conception of where we can go to. Because there's a lack of development and that developmental engine

and the harnessing of that developmental engine is what we would do to get there, if that makes sense. So once you understand that there are these levels of development, you make sure that each level is healthy in a culture, and then you provide the drivers that facilitate the pro the movement through those processes in a healthy way. But once you understand that development is the central key, then of course, the governors of a civilization need to be at that level

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sure that our trajectory is there. If we don't bank on AI going the right direction or at least being able to help facilitate some of this growth. The first phase, if you will, is where we begin to wake up and we begin to realize that what we've been told isn't true. So it's like the questioning of the status quo, right? And it's at the physical level. So it's the physical body, like at the beginning I'm pretty identified with being my physical body. I might talk about spirit but actually I am my body, right? So at that first initiation,

the individual is beginning to, and again, these transcend and include. So at the first stage is like, oh, I'm my body, okay. Fitness, health, mastering sleep, mastering the physical body, diet, yoga, martial arts. The first initiation is a kind of, the initiation of the physical body, right? So you've got to be able to be organized, embodied, healthy. So there's that

piece and then there's the questioning piece. And so we saw that in a mass initiation level during COVID. Like, hang on a second. And also the whole thing around the body, like what's health, how does it work? Who's, right, like that whole thing. So that's a very recent example. But you know, in the last 20 years in our civilization, these are the people you see, yoga studios, you know, well, I mean, like yourself and like Aubrey, like

doing on it and like doing what you're MM and all of that was like part of your initiation, your first degree initiation. Right. And of course you continue to do that because it's a mastery that you've mastered it now. Right? So to some, you know, we all have to master enough. You don't have to become an Olympic athlete, but you have to like have mastered enough hygiene and master of physical health

and also a savoir faire to begin to realize that what's going on in the physical plane is not quite what it seems. Does that make sense? Yeah, I actually love that. It's something that I frequently bring up to people who send me, you know, whatever the latest spiritual master, quote of the day kind of thing.

And I just say, it always stuck out to me if somebody went so far into the spiritual that they kind of forwent, they just went past any care of the body. And you can see it with certain people, they continue to, whether it's wealth and success or sugar addiction, whatever the fuck it is, you just see them get to a point where like they're clearly know their shit when it comes to spirituality. They clearly know they clearly have gravitas there, they have

enough in a way of teaching and presenting themselves that people want to listen. And when I look at them in the physical, I'm like, but you're missing fucking home base, right? There's no foundation to the body. And my body works differently, you know, in that, because I've had so many injuries, and because of my constitution, if I don't move properly, I feel it right? Like, check said, I had a podcast with check really early on where he said the body's like a dog. When you're going into deep work, deep ceremony, if you're trying to astral project, and the dog needs to be walked, the dog's gonna whimper. If the dog didn't get enough love, the dog's gonna whimper. The dog's thirsty, it's gonna whimpers like

satisfy the needs of the dog. That will allow you to go into these deeper spaces, right? And so I've always I've always carried that with me in a ceremony. But I even just in the day to day, you know, where's my tuning fork? Where's that connection piece that I have at all times? It's stronger in my body if I'm present, if I don't have aches and pains, if I'm not walking around with soreness or I'm trying to max effort deadlift or, you know, like there was a point where I kicked my ass and training for a fight. And then there's a point now where it's like, I don't have a fight coming up.

I have this eternal fight coming up. I have this eternal fight going on. And I, and it's, and I'm my best when I'm not kind of in between these spaces where I'm working, you know, well on a daily basis, but not overdoing it. Right. Not too much, not too little. That's right. And I've found that relationship with myself fosters a deeper relationship and understanding of spirit and some of the deeper levels of gnosis. I just never understood that. Like you've been up there from an initiation standpoint is like so

many people seek to go past that they forget this we've got this this is our only vehicle this go-around. That's right. You get a new one but you got one vehicle. That's holy animal. That's the holy animal, right? And the truth is, is the reason that we see those teachers in those situations, like cut off, is because those want initiatory systems designed for this moment in time. So we don't have, we have to build, this is what I said, I have to build a new initiatory system. And that is a big piece of work. It takes sacred finance.

It takes like, you've got to bring together a team to even do that. So the reason why you see those examples of the masters with their body left behind is because the initiatory system that they were in was designed for fifth century India or whatever it is, where life was so miserable, you couldn't get help. I mean, for whatever the point is, the point is we have to redesign it. We have to understand what it looks like in our day and age. We cannot afford to about like, you't afford to be for it to be abandoned because what we know is.

Well, let me say, let me say one thing. I have friends who've done research on spiritual teachers and their levels of development. And just so you know, there's no relationship between state development and development, meaning majority of the great teachers don't score at an integral level of development. They're actually at a mythic level of development, because what we're talking about developmentally is not about state, it's about structure.

Now, structure is as much sacred as status. That sacred form, it that sacred structure, right? So the truth is, is you can go to these traditions, mythic traditions, learn meditation inside of them, become realized based on their parameters, but you've just been realized at a mythic level of development. So that's what you're seeing when you see that, okay? So that first level, physical health, this is what you're kind of training your kids for, right?

Get your control of your body, control of your room, sleeping patterns, diet. Now the people that you see get stuck there is they get stuck into conspirituality. You get stuck at conspiracy theory. Now, there is a conspiracy, don't get me wrong, but actually to untie the conspiracy, you actually have to go deeper into the initiatory system.

You can't work it out at that first level. There's also a bunch of manipulation that happens to those people who are caught at that first level is they can be manipulated by all kinds of forces because they don't know what's true anymore. Right, yeah, I kind of felt that way when I was rabbit-holing David Icke's work that there was no bottom to the wellspring of conspiracy.

It just kept going, the rabbit hole doesn't end. It's truly, truly, it's really just keeps going down further and further and further. That's a very challenging space to dwell in for too long. You know? Well, the only way you can dwell in that space is once you recognize what we would call openness.

So at the third initiation and moving into the fourth, the mind doesn't need to hold on to anything anymore. So we'll get there. And because of that, it can handle that degree of like, oh my God, this goes on and on and on and on. Okay, so second initiation is really about the initiation of the astral body. Okay, so this is the clearing out of the emotional body through lifetimes of junk.

Right, so this is where you see the majority of the medicine community. You see people involved in psychotherapy, you see people experimenting with polyamory and all kind of relational dynamics. Like you're really awakening the possibility of sacred relationship, awakening Eros at the astral level, relationship, awakening Eros at the astral level, awakening devotion, doing the emotional work, doing the shadow work, understanding the shadow, that whole realm. Does that make sense? Yeah. Right. And that's where a huge amount of what we'd see, let's say, in the psychedelic community or Burning

Man are going through the second initiation. The psychotherapist's offices are full of people who are trying to get through there. Once you do a bit of therapy and then you start using psychedelics, psychedelics is like the power tool of the second initiation, but also like dream work, lucid dreaming, astral projection, all that kind of stuff. And there's a whole world that you could spend a whole lifetime doing just, you know, like more and more and more and more astral experiences. You know, Eric Godsey well, you know, Eric Godsey is one of my best friends and I've worked with him for years. You know, we both went in to as as coaches with Aubrey right when he started Fit for Service.

We worked closely together and on it before that. We teach every year, we do a full temple reset where we do a five-day fasting mimicking diet. We get some nice fat daily. We do vitamin IVs. We do a bunch of shit to re-engineer the body, but he also does that for the psyche and he does a lot of dream analysis. And it fucking fries me how deep that rabbit hole goes through Jungian psychology. It's its own realm. It truly is. It's as deep as the wellspring of plant medicines, I think. Yeah. Well, that's... Jung was approaching the astral just like Plum metas. So alchemy and Jungian work is a Western approach to the astral.

That's much more kind of like dialed in in a way that a Western mind might be. Because of course you can open things up with ayahuasca, but it doesn't necessarily mean that you integrate it. Correct. Now the best of both worlds is when they're both integrated, right? So that would be like the second initiatory process, right? Where you've got that emotional clearing.

And we're seeing a lot of that. We're seeing a lot of that. Okay, third initiation would be the initiation into the sacred mind. Okay, so somebody who's really operating there is really into like, now I'm using here like a kind of stereotype to like, it would be somebody who's really into sacred mathematics,

geometry, the pyramids, a whole understanding of, like I'm a polymath, I understand. Robert Edward Grant. Okay, Robert Edward Grant, there you go, boom, third initiation, right? Like, nyeh nyeh nyeh nyeh nyeh. Right? You know? Now we don't all have to have that, we don't all, we're not, not everybody's going to have that expression when they go through that, but he is a really good example of that expression at that third initiation, right? So you learn to use your mind, you learn to use your mind to control your emotional body,

you use mental based meditation techniques, you begin to realize that develop, like you will begin to understand development. So you begin to recognize that no matter by a wasker is actually going to help you grow because there's a building. Once you understand that the, that the, that the developmental path is constructed, that's why the masons used masonry as a metaphor. You have to actually build it, which means you can't dissolve it all with the club. You actually have to build something. So that building process, that third initiation,

I think you could, well, think of it this way. There's a lot of people at that postmodern stage that we were talking about, remember, who at the second initiation. So a lot of them who are at that postmodern stage who are experimenting with psychedelics and emotional work and shadow work and all of that. And then the integral stage, the intellect is reaffirmed again. It's like, hang on a second, you have a mind, you have to use it because you're going to

have to build something that is multi-incarnational. You're building something to last many lifetimes. You need more than just astral experiences. You need geometry and structure. Does that make like you need to use your mind because this journey doesn't end? Yeah, that's I'm trying to think of the guy's name. He just passed away. He was a Steiner guy, was the first guy to teach Dr. Ibrahim Karim's work, was a buddy of Aubrey's and mine.

Oh, yes, yes, the Rosicrucian. Oh, my gosh, Dr. I'm gonna see his face. I'm really Robert Gilbert. Robert Gilbert. Yes. Oh, fucking cabinet. I would have just loved it. End of the podcast right there until I could have figured that I would have been a sucker on that like 40 minutes. Um, yeah, Dr. Robert Gilbert, he talked a lot about this. And this was taught through Steiner as well, that we were actually trying to build an astral body out of the physical body, that we were trying to use structure of mind and spirit to cohere so that you'd come to a point upon death to where you wouldn't forget again. You would continue with memory onward.

And I think to what you're speaking of is laying that out here in this realm as well, leaving behind the structure necessary to facilitate the growth of the planet. Is that right, David? Isn't that correct? Yeah, exactly. Exactly. And third degree initiates,

third degree initiates realize that and they usually commit to big projects. So a third degree initiate is usually someone, this is also when you grow out of your own kind of narcissistic spiritual journey at the third and you realize, fuck, we are part of a whole system. Even when you leave, you are embodied into the subtle dimensions of the planetary system. It's a single system and what's happening on the physical realm is a condensation of all those other

layers. So if you think it's going to be better because you ascend, you are diluted. This is it. This is where the work needs to happen. So they commit to larger projects, developmental projects, right? And making stuff happen and taking on the responsibility of a bodhisattva. So really at the third degree is where my mind, what I call a planetary bodhisattva is beginning to be born. You're beginning to see the vision of what needs to happen because you're using your mind. You're thinking beyond your own personal journey. You're thinking, you're able to think

beyond this personal lifetime. You realize, oh my God, if all of this is true, I'm gonna come back here. Like, so if I don't build my own landing strip, right? Like actually it's like being engaged in the developmental, supporting the developmental process of our civilization is actually selfish in a good way because you're not getting out of here. You're not getting out of here.

So that third degree then, okay. What then also begins to happen there is this is where meditation begins to realize that meditation as a mental discipline is necessary. And so this begins, because there's difference between that versus plant medicine, right? Like there's a discipline, there's a greater degree of discipline and hygiene necessary for meditation than there is for the plant medicine. At least that's a generalization, but I'm just kinda like, you know, ideally,

ideally, if our academy, if the Western Academy had had plants for the last 2,000 years, that wouldn't be true. What I mean by that is, is if our Western psychedelics had continued to be refined from Egypt to today, our psychedelics would be so sophisticated and so elegant that jungle juice, you know, like the ayahuasca would be jungle juice,

if that makes sense. Because you could, the point of alchemy is you could refine the spirits. You can help the spirit of Ayahuasca mature through an alchemical process. The point is we don't have that. So you move onto the meditative path. On that meditative path, it's at that third initiation

where you first have the experience of what we would call emptiness or openness. And what that is is where the mind penetrates the apparent solidity of structure and begins to realize that all structures are fundamentally actually constructed and open. So they call that in Buddhism, openness, or the emptiness, or the essence traditions openness.

And what that recognition is, is essentially the recognition that your body and your self structure are open systems. And therefore you begin to experience at the fourth that your body extends into a field. So at the fourth initiation, the third gives you the insight, it's called in the Buddhist tradition, the path of insight.

You begin to have that insight. At the fourth initiation, it becomes stabilized as an ongoing recognition. And this would be the difference between, let's say, having tastes in ceremony of being part of a field at the second of initiation, to the third initiation, being able to replicate that with your own mind,

to the fourth initiation, that becomes a ongoing realization, right? So, okay. So that state becomes a stage. It becomes a stage., it becomes a stage. It becomes a stage. The state becomes a stage. Now what that means is, is you're now operating from a resonant field model. And now you're maturing as a planetary Bodhisattva because you feel your heart, this is about the openness.

All of these stages, these initiations are actually referring to the levels of the heart opening up, the heart intelligence opening, right? So that's why in the Christian tradition, the first initiation is called the birth in the manger, that's the birth in the manger of the heart. The second initiation is called the baptisms and the astral waters. The third initiation is the transfiguration of the light. And then the fourth initiation is called the crucifixion. Crucifixion because now you're crucified on openness. You can't fucking go anywhere.

You are like, you are part of the field, you're in the field. You can't not feel the responsibility of what's happening on the planet. Like you can't avoid it. Like you realize that it's your body, right? So if there's a war, if people are getting like bombed the fuck out of in Gaza, that process is over there,

but it could be here. There's no, like it doesn't, just because it is over there, but it could be here. There's no, like it doesn't just because it's over there right now, it could be in 2040, it could be here. Yeah. Right. So you're essentially, you are now functioning from a planetary level of consciousness. That makes sense, right? At that level of consciousness, this is what's called the

the Buddhic level. So the first the first initiation physical, second initiation astral, third mental, fourth Buddhic. Now what Buddhic is, is like what they call them Buddhism, direct non-conceptual valid cognition, direct knowing, which means you're awakening the intuition as a heart intelligence. And what intuition is, is mental synchronicity. So at the Buddhic level, you awaken to the planetary body, you awaken to what's called the Anima Mundi, the soul of the world.

Now that soul, the world itself has a Buddhic intelligence. And so as your heart is opening, the world is beginning to respond with synchronicity. So at that level what happens is now you've really signed your name on the dotted line, so to speak, that you're like, I'm all fucking it, right? I'm all in, I'm all in. It's called the crucifixion, because you're like, fuck it, I'm crucified and matter. Fuck yeah, let's do this thing, right? You're fully committed, and you realize

that there's no way getting off the cross until everybody gets off the cross. Like, until this whole, right? And so rather than like trying to get out, you're like, let's get in, get in. We gotta get into what's happening here. That's also where like the heroic journey, so the narrative of the heroic journey,

like the 12 labors of Hercules describe the archetypal pattern that as the heart comes online, it creates a narrative structure that is your life. So your heart in communication with the planetary soul, as it awakens at that level, the heroic journey begins to reveal itself as a structure of the heart-mind. And then the difference, and then that level,

the difference between, let's say, the second and the third initiation is, it's like in the Avengers. The interesting thing about new movies is they have multiple heroes. So what happens at the fourth initiation is the second and third, you were kind of like pumped up on your own heroic, like, and then as that fourth kicks in,

what happens is the soul, which is really awakening fully at that stage, realizes that he is part of a tribe and that actually the soul is a group intelligence. Like it's a group planetary intelligence. And so the recognition that is like, we do this together. You know what I'm saying? Like we do this together.

This happens together. So that's kind of like the fourth degree. Basically, that's the longest one because that involves a significant amount of patience because what happens is, as you're now walking your path in the world, so as you become super committed to helping the world, every time you help the world, it opens you up more. Because now your unfolding process,

as you've recognized that you're part of the field, you're now inseparably bound to the unfolding of the whole field. And so whatever karmic connections you have, so over the many lifetimes, Kyle has had many relationships with many people. At the fourth initiation, you start winding all those relationships in,

and they start creating a beautiful work of art. Like a beautiful work of art begins to reveal itself, like a synchronicity of you and you and your friend, like something, a masterpiece begins to reveal itself, but it takes time to walk that path to manifest that masterpiece. When that masterpiece is kind of manifested, then it begins the fifth. That's basically traditionally that's when you would be called a master.

And then just to get a sense of scale, mastery at the fifth and the so graduation of the whole class happens at the seventh and that basically gets you like the first degree on Sirius. Now you're like, right, you've kind of, you graduated like middle school. So it's, you know, and that's the, so that process unfolds indefinitely. Right, so, that gives a little bit of a sense of,

now what's happening, you can see what's happening right now on our planet is something is ramping up because the planet itself wants to give birth to initiatory processes that can help all of this pump through. If you and I were looking at this from a planetary perspective and we saw the planet and the souls on it, we would see a bunch of stagnation. And so those initiatory schools would provide pumps that would start the whole thing pumping and moving so that we can have a phase shift.

Yeah. I like that. I was getting the image of stagnant water in different pockets on a river, and then the deluge comes and gets all that stagnant water moving again. Yes, right. I mean, I think that what happens is, is the planet archetypally, either this process happens consciously and it evolves or unconsciously and the whole thing gets like basically wiped clean. And typically that's what they say has happened over the,

you know, like Atlantis couldn't pull it together. And so like evolutionary forces are just like, okay, let's just like clean house and we'll give it another shot. So yes, you know what I mean? Like something is gonna be destroyed. The question is, can it be like a, can it be a synthesis that leads to something new

or is it a destruction that kind of deteriorates? Yeah, I have to wipe this back to the beginning. Sure. That was fucking great. I mean, it's been a great two hours. I would love to stop here and run another one with you at some point. So that was fantastic, brother. Where can people find you? Where can people learn from you? Where can people follow you?

Oh, yeah. Great. So on the web, planetarydharma.com and I think also on Instagram, planetarydharma. Yeah. Cool. Beautiful, brother.