Kyle Kingsbury Podcast - #422 Music, Mysticism & Mindfulness w/ East Forest

Episode Date: September 8, 2025

Krishna, also known as East Forest, is back to discuss his influential work in the realm of psychedelic music. East Forest gained recognition for his album 'Music for Mushrooms,' a five-hour album tailored for psilocybin experiences. The podcast revisits his creative process and the impact of his work on psychedelic practitioners in the United States and beyond. Krishna also shares insights on his recent documentary on 'Music for Mushrooms,' which is available for free viewing for two weeks upon the podcast's release. The conversation transitions into various personal updates, including East Forest's recent activities in Utah and his experience with homesteading and running a property. Both brothers reflect on the spiritual and grounding effects of physical labor and touch on their personal experiences with high-dose psilocybin journeys. The podcast also explores deeper philosophical and existential questions, relating to the nature of reality, spirituality, and the importance of tools like meditation and music in navigating life's challenges. Krishna shares his ideas on the transformational power of music designed specifically for psychedelic journeys and references the influence of notable figures like Ram Dass and Leonard Picard. The episode emphasizes the importance of live performances in an age where recorded music is becoming increasingly saturated, along with future tour plans and projects. Throughout, the conversation weaves between profound insights about existence and light-hearted banter, providing listeners with an engaging and thought-provoking experience.   Connect with East Forest here: Instagram Website Exclusive viewing link of Music For Mushrooms   From Kyle: The Community is coming! Click here to learn more The Rising Retreat w/ Conor Milstein: https://www.therisingretreat.com/   Our Sponsors: Let’s level up your nicotine routine with Lucy. Go to Lucy.co/KKP and use promo code (KKP) to get 20% off your first order. Lucy offers FREE SHIPPING and has a 30-day refund policy if you change your mind. If there’s ONE MINERAL you should be worried about not getting enough of... it’s MAGNESIUM. Head to http://www.bioptimizers.com/kingsbu now and use code KINGSBU to claim your 15% discount. These are the b3 bands I was talking about. They are amazing, I highly recommend incorporating them into your movement practice.   Connect with Kyle: I'm back on Instagram, come say hey @kylekingsbu Twitter: @kingsbu Our Farm Initiative: @gardenersofeden.earth Odysee: odysee.com/@KyleKingsburypod Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/@Kyle-Kingsbury Kyle's Website: www.kingsbu.com - Gardeners of Eden site If you enjoyed this podcast, please subscribe & leave a 5-star review with your thoughts!

Welcome to today's podcast. We have the return of my brother, also known as East Forest. Many of you know East Forrest from an album he did, maybe six or seven years ago. It was called Music for Mushrooms. That's what it was for. It was for the psilocybin journey. And, you know, as he explained years ago when this thing was just coming out, there was only a little bit of music here and there that some psychedelic practitioners

were working with aside from like a medicine man in Peru who's actually creating his own music or she's creating her own music. but for the practitioners in America and other places, you know, they're really left with classical and some of these other things they could try to work with that weren't necessarily designed for the experience.

And so he designed a five-hour-plus album directly in accordance with the medicine. You know, you go back to our podcast from before as we go deeper into, you know, his process behind that, but I wanted to have Christian back on because he just finished the music for Mushrooms documentary. And it's really cool. It dives deep in all this.

there's a link in the show notes for you guys to watch for free for the next two weeks when this podcast release so check that out don't delay watch it and share it with friends it's i can't wait for people to get a hold of this 82 minutes long christian is just a phenomenal person he's he's a soul brother we've had many great podcasts i did a whopper the largest dose of mushrooms i've ever done to his album and he helped me not go off the rails even though i went off the rails he helped ground the hell out of me and he continues to help ground me you know he's a he's a he's a dear soul brother with a lot of wisdom and uh you know at times we're just shooting the shit catching up on this podcast and then he drops some deep wisdom and i just love that about him you know it's it's baked

into every fiber of his being the fact that he's done so much work on himself and has guided so many people he is living in harmony and he's still a fucking human like anybody else and he'll point that out you know he was buddies with the rom-doss before rom-doss passed and they did some cool work together. But you always say that, you know, like there's the persona that people see when they meet East Forest or the persona that Ram Dass would get. And he talks about that and becoming nobody, you know, like, hey, Richard Alpert. And he's, oh, yeah, you know, Dick Alpert and shake their hand, you know, with a firm handshake. And then, oh, Baba Ramdas, you know, and he'd bow with his prayer hands, that kind of shit. And so he just kind of laughed in himself about these

different personas. Christian is a human like all of us. And he's also doing some great shit. And I just love being around him. I always learned something from him, which, of course, I got to in this podcast. So share this with your friends. Without further ado, my brother, East Forrest. Krishna, East Forrest, welcome back on the podcast, brother. Been too long. It definitely has. It definitely has. You look great. You're always in shape. It look like you've been traveling and feeling what do you've been up to, dude? What are you been doing? Just MMA, man. I'm totally slaying it in the ring. Got your black pelicans. Been training with the Russians. Oh, yeah. Yeah, man. I've been working on a property in an off-grid property in southern Utah and it's basically just all

physical labor and being outside it's brutal but it's good it's the best kind of brutal right dude I mean I don't know if you ask me in the minute like things happening like you know water lines two-inch water lines breaking underneath a creek and we have to dig it out and it's just like throwing 100 pound rocks and stuff while my friend's back hoeing and he's yelling at me to like go faster and the water's filling in around your legs and it's intense but i mean it's you know it's real like it feels very very grounding i suppose but yeah i like i i appreciate the real world consequences right like it's one thing like you make a mistake in the office and somebody's going to give you a talking to or maybe if it's bad enough there's a write-up and you only

get three write-ups before you got to go to hr and you know sign your exit papers Like, there's a consequence immediate, too. You know, like we, I told the story before where we put the game fence in. We got an eight foot game fence. I'm like, cool, that's protection enough for the sheep. We bring 50 sheep in and we lose fucking seven

the first night from a pack of coyotes. And I'm like, damn, dude, we're going to, if I don't get dogs now, we're not going to have sheep to defend. They do, like 28 holes were dug on the outside of the perimeter. Like in an instant, dude. seven sheep is quite a meal i mean that's no joke that's a lot of food and i mean they were they were killing to kill they weren't just killing to eat i mean

they ate what they could and um they didn't have anything there there was nothing in there to run them off you know so we got a couple of puppies we brought them in and then we released the puppies out we were just camping at night you know with freaking night vision goggles and um as soon as we stopped camping out we put the dogs out those two dogs were too young. We lost six more. And I was like, all right, that's it. I drove the next day with Eric up to Dallas, and we got four older dogs. They're untowling shepherds. And since we put them out, we haven't lost sheep. But that's like one of a small handful of things where the consequences were immediate. They were big. Like it was like, holy shit, something's dying here.

Like we had a one of our automatic sprinkler systems, like the whole zone failed. So we lost 50 trees in our food forest out of 450 trees. And it was like, brutal. 20% of what we planted in a matter of two weeks in the summer, right? We didn't catch it until it was too late. All of them are dead. Thankfully, you know, we were able to replace those. But it's like that there's real world consequences are fast, you know, when you're working on.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think I saw your whole setup several years ago. So I imagine you've come a long way in that time. Yeah. We're still still learning, still figuring stuff out. We just sold two thirds of our sheep.

We hunted for the first time on the line. land this winter and took about five red deer and five black buck we still have quite a few of them that's why we sold so many sheep we sold 80 sheep um and we're just letting the ground recover you know we had the big floods this summer which was unexpected but on that day for obie it was a huge tragedy for texas but for us it was five inches of rain in a day and the way our land set up is it just refilled the ponds we had green grass all summer so we've been very fortunate in that respect because it's been a drop for three years so it's nice

we scaled back to let the land recover and then the rains came this summer which is hilarious because it's like literally we're just fucking guessing we have no idea how things are going to turn out but I think the land's getting

a good recovery this year so it's going to be good well I don't have any livestock or anything I mean mostly because you have to be around for that you know I'm always coming in and out you need someone attended are you in Boise most of the time

and in Utah up here Got it? How does that work? Yeah. So it's Boise's sort of home base. And then I've been going down to Utah just to work like any time I have free time, which is like I'll be heading down there in a few days. I just got back last night from a tour. And so it's, I haven't been going down to Utah in the winter. It's pretty intense down there. So it's sort of a three season situation. So this will be kind of the last time I can go down and get some work done before kind of buttoning it up because then I'm busy in the fall until then I have to wait till the spring.

Yeah. Yeah. Different places are her. We only have like two weeks of really harsh winter here. It's cold, but I mean, those two weeks it could freeze. You could have cars sliding at a 90 degree angle off the roads because there's no salt and people don't have, they just don't know how to drive in the snow. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But it does happen. I mean, probably five out of eight eight years we've been here snowed or had ice on the ground, you know. So it's like it's enough for it to be a thing, but it's usually only a couple of weeks where it drops that low and then it pops back up. Yeah. So you've been good. You've just been there mostly and cranking away at the homesteading? Yeah, we're living here. We're cranking away at the homesteading. You know,

I'll pulled out of fit for service. So I've been kind of rebuilding everything on my own side of it, building up my own health and wellness community that's going to release in the fall. We've got a movement-based event we're going to throw at the end of August, actually during Burning Man's So we kind of shot ourselves in the foot with, you know, getting all the people in. But we're going to run that back in April. Really excited about that. And, yeah, the kids are doing great. Bears been doing jiu-jitsu and wrestling is his first season in football.

He loves tackle football. And that was my love when I was a kid, you know, it was my favorite thing. So that's been fun to watch. Homeschooling has been, you know, treacherous at times and awesome at others and really rewarding in many ways. and also a huge headache in other ways. So it's, you know, that's like anything with parenting, but you've taken on extra. You know, I give mad credit to my wife for being the teacher

and the full-time mom and still homestead and still doing all the things around here. So, yeah, life has been really good. Are you guys doing a documentary? What are you guys going on right now? Yeah, so I'm, I finished my documentary music for mushrooms and we had a theatrical release last winter. But right now it's at,

music for mushrooms.com or just on my website, eastforce.org. But yes, that was something I'm really proud of. I don't, I should send you a link. It's a feature length doc, spent about three years making it, got privately funded and had some really talented people working on it. But it's basically exploring, it's a narrative. So it's sort of following me as I'm struggling to figure some things out or like, you know, should I or can I expand this sort of work into broader and broader circles and meeting with people along the way about like, is that relevant or what, you know, what are things to consider? So some scientific viewpoints, some indigenous viewpoints, some artistic viewpoints in there. And it's a good watch, man. It's a tight thing. It's like

82 minutes. That's awesome. And does it tell your story? I mean, this might be sometimes people's first time listening to you on the podcast. I'd love for you to kind of recap, like, you as a musician working towards this thing and trying to put this to just the album in general before the documentary. Yeah. Like talk about that. I think that's really good. And it's been a while since you've got on the podcast too. So even if people heard you the first couple of times, they're probably wondering, you know, like, what's this documentary about? What was the album about? That kind of stuff. Sure. Well, yeah, music for mushrooms. Like, why is it called that and I think it is because mushrooms have played a big role in my life and sort of me

sitting here and what I do and for better or worse I think a lot of people sometimes think of me as like the mushroom guy even though like my day-to-day I don't know identity I don't think that way or it's like I'm not always thinking about mushrooms or even taking mushrooms that often but it had such an impact on who I am that I find myself being an advocate and particularly I started exploring that space with music in 2008 and my buddy Lewis just was setting up ceremonies for me to play and I would I just kept saying okay all right so he just kept inviting me and I kept doing this and you fast forward all these years later and we start we worked with thousands of people and eventually he's he's formed a plant medicine church

and you learn a lot by doing that like you're just experimenting really like I'll try this and how did that work in the ceremony? And this seems to a lot of it's creative, but a lot of it's just anecdotal about what is the best way that I was discovering to guide people with music and ceremony. Like what are those basic constituent parts that can be somewhat universal to have the most successful positive journey? And I've developed a musical language through that as well.

I was live looping and bringing in field recordings and doing all these different techniques, pulling things that I would learn from actual ceremonies, indigenous ceremonies that I would attend and then trying to see what I could find out there on sound healing, which there was a lot less back then. Psychedelics were not cool in 2008 at all and very nichey. But I would just piece all this together

and I started to kind of make my own sound and my own thing and then bringing that more into the public space kind of in 2014. I think I did my first touring. And then there are various milestones along the way, looking back that I can sort of recognize at this point, like the Ram Dass album and the Music for Mushroom's album that I put out. That was five hours in 2019

and becoming more and more publicly open about this subject and what I do in it. And then eventually we made this movie, and that came out last year. And that was, it does tell my story a little bit, but it's not wholly about me. I'm just sort of like the, you got to have something as like the backbone of a film

to follow along with and struggle with. So for better or worse, that became me. But we want the film to inspire people, especially people who are little tangential to the subject. They're curious. There's a lot of people curious. And there's a lot of pressures in the world, of course, right now. I mean, we're fundamentally going through a transition,

through collapse and in that people are stressed and it's unique to each person so people are looking for tools and methods that work for them and support them and that's my primary interest is what are those tools that we can get out there at scale and that actually function and can meet people's needs now yeah I love that I love that because it's You know, there's a great work of guys like Rick Doblin and MAPS and all the people that are funding psychedelic research, hopefully for the betterment of all and not just for some, you know, corporate paycheck. But that all takes so much time, you know, and like anything with medicine, it's like if you've got to wait for this third controlled trial and all this stuff to just even be able to talk about what the results were and whatnot. And it's like people need help right now. And so I love the fact that you're giving those tools.

It's really cool that you had the background, you know, like you had to put the reps in, guiding people and experimenting and, you know, listening, opening the intuition up and seeing where it was correct, where was incorrect, where do I polish the mirror in a way to where this actually is really transformative for people. I remember right, I mean, I was working on it right when the Music for Mushrooms album came out, and me and Aubrey were just chomping at the bit for it. Like, let's go. You know, like, we couldn't wait to run one with it. And it was so awesome, man. It was such a beautiful experience, you know? Just like, I just remember being fucking wowed listening to you. It was like the first time I listened to a live person play in ayahuasca instead of recording. Right, right.

I was like, holy shit. Like I had a completely different understanding of sound then. Like I was like, you know, you can talk about frequency and things like that. But I mean, it was so visceral. Yes. When you have a great medicine man there. presence like and you feel that vibration coming through and that that was really the kind of my takeaway was that was the first time i'd listen to something recorded where it hit me in the

same way that a live person can hit me you know i was just floored like couldn't yeah it was because i'm recording it live in ceremonies and it's improvised and all those those ingredients i think are pretty powerful so it's i it's clearly um in for influenced by the medicine and the ceremony because you're in it and you're guiding people. And then it's theoretically designed for that experience. All right, guys, quick break to tell you about what I've been up to. This year has been a year of transition for me with a fit for service making huge changes. I've been working to create my own community.

I still don't have a name for it yet. That is in the works. I'm brewing on it. But one of the things that I have come to understand is what this community is about. And so I want to give you a little hint here. let you guys drop in. I'd love to get your feedback. And there's a link at the top of the page here if you guys are interested at all. All right. So join in a transformative journey with our exclusive community where a like-minded individuals come together to explore the realms

of body, mind, and connection. For $150 a month, you'll gain access to a treasure trove of wisdom from hundreds of podcasts guests, a lifetime of learning and human optimization, and the teachings of legends like Paul Check, James Clear, and so many others. Reconnect with your inner compass and discover the freedom, health, and sovereignty that await. Embrace the journey to excellence because we are what we repeatedly do. If that interests you, peep the link in the show notes for the community, and we will get you guys locked in. All right, back to the podcast.

I have a new record called Lovingly, by the way, that's the volume three essentially in this soundtrack for a psychedelic practitioner series. Music for Mushrooms is the first, and it's six hours, and it's welcome you to try it out. similar vein, most people haven't ever, like you said, experienced something live in the room, let alone something that was intentionally made for that experience. There's nothing wrong with using music that's basically being used off-label, right? It might work, okay, but there's many, many things you can add in that will make it work even better because you're saying, hey, I'm going to design musical aspects of this

so that it'll be really conducive to amplifying your experience. And there's not a lot of that out there. Like everything's short form content these days. This is the kryptonite to that. It's like, no, no, no, no. It's going to be many hours, long songs. That's great in that kind of space, all connected.

And it's something for you to really drop into yourself and into the moment and so you can really listen to what I contend is speaking to you anyway but you're giving it this platform and this stage like this giant parabola you're lying in a sense now you can

hear a lot more a lot more and that's to me the point and that's really needed right now with all the noise yeah beautifully stated I love that I love that yeah yeah so check it out lovingly man I think you jam on that

That's basically like, it's just recordings from ceremonies over the last four years, four or five. And so for me, that's sort of like the spirit tip of what I've been up to in that space. And it was also technically like this soundtrack of the movie. Because like the movie's talking about this. I was like, well, why don't we just provide a thing that you can experience instead of just talking about it too? That's perfect. That's what it is. So you mentioned what was the name and you said there was a series?

Are you planning on releasing more albums in the series for? psychedelic practitioners? Maybe. Yeah, there's three. So music, the very first one was 2019. Music for mushrooms, a soundtrack for the psychedelic practitioner volume one. And then I've released one in the pandemic called In. That's the soundtrack for a psychedelic practitioner volume two. And that's only, that's two hours. Great for ketamine too. And then recently, this is Lovingly, which is the third volume. It's just a way of really, it's just saying like, hey, you know, this is what it's for, so you know, and that doesn't, there's a real, that's intentional because when I was talking about scale, you know, I've been thinking a lot over the years

about how can we help people and meet their needs in that way? And like you said, well, sure, it's awesome to go to the jungle or go to one of these clinics, but it's expensive and maybe not as available to you and it takes a lot of time. Whereas you could drop into a mushroom experience at your home or with your friends, much lower barrier of entry. And I think if you put on like lovingly and hit start at the beginning of your journey and the volumes at the right level and you feel safe, you've done 95% of the variables for you to have a better guided experience. Of course, I'm not, I don't know people that, you know, everyone's different. It's not a panacea. They should be careful. But my point is like that goes a long way to guide someone.

And at scale, you throw that up on Spotify or something or YouTube, it's now just out there. And so that title can help someone know. I've heard stories, incredible stories where people say, like, these two brothers were on a journey, doing it Kyle Kingsbury style, like, too much. And they're way deep. And they were like, oh, it was not good for them. And one of them remembered something about some album called Music for Mushrooms or something that came in in his head. head and he somehow like, you know, reached to the computer and could type something in before he really fell back, hit play. And that started to then guide them through the next many hours. And

it turned from something very challenging and dark into something that became not only very valuable and important, but one of the very powerful connection between the two of them and very positive. And he wrote me a letter about it. And I'm like, well, if I hadn't have named it that, you might not have known, you know, or less people could just be overtly understanding. understand like, oh, there's this tool here. And it's just there, you know, these doorways are there for us, as Terrence McKenna would say. The only thing stopping you is courage. That's the key to the door. That's it. But they're there if you want to open them. And you don't have to. You know, everybody graduates. Everybody graduates, you know, but it's there. Well, one thing I think it was maybe

one of our last podcast that really resonated with me when you bring up the Cal Kingsbury dose was just that, you know, I told the story of one of my good buddies really having a hard time with a gram of penis envy. And it was penis envy, but it was also one gram. You know, I'm like, he was really, like, couldn't hold it together. And you talked about that, the difference between neurochemistry, you know, a gram for one guy is five grams for another. You know, so like this, since we're bringing up McKenna, you know, like the idea of McKenna's heroic dose isn't a one-size-fits-all. And that's something that really resonated because I've understood that about diet. I've understood that about health and wellness training, you know, in so many ways, right? It's never a one-size

fits all. Our microbiome is different. Our neurochemistry is different. All of these things are going to impact that. And our state, where we're at in the world, how much stress are we under at this moment that I enter the ceremony, you know? And another guy might be like, I just won the lotto. Life is great. I just got married. I just had a kid. Whatever the thing is, they're in different positions to begin with. So that's something that's really resonated with me. And one of the things, when you talk about tools that I really appreciate about psilocybin specifically as compared to ayahuasca, Bogor, or any of the other, you know, big, heavy hitters is that it works at any dose. It works at the microdose. It works at the entry level, kind of what you'd consider, you know, the two to three gram dose.

And then it works above that. And it continues to work even above that. You know, we talked about the clendiye before. As you know. Yeah. It will not, there's no ceiling there. right it doesn't just stop working because you ate more it continues to go up um but that's a really that's a really fascinating cool aspect to that medicine in particular and you know since then i have

it's pretty rare maybe once a year i'll do something big i did a big journey with paul uh check down in san Diego last time I was out there. And it was plenty. I mean, I was full. It was nowhere near the Kalindi dose, but it was all I needed. You know, that's a good, I feel full for the year. We're going to do a vision quest later. You know, next month, actually we have, I can't believe it's two months from now. We're going to do a vision quest here on the land, no food, no water for four days. And so I've been looking to find different avenues, you know, different paths up the mountain and see, you know, kind of see what the feedback is there. How is that from an altered state experience.

Obviously, it's going to be incredibly challenging, incredibly hard. But will that bring me back, you know, into that center point where I feel connected to all things and to operate from a beautiful place? So I'm excited for that. But I do want to just give a little credit, you know, to the smaller doses, you know, like you can start small. It's going to work, you know, especially if you give it a container, you know, where you're going to play music like music for mushrooms or lovingly and you're going to light some candles

and you're going to be in a dark room and you know you've got a sitter or somebody to say like hey you okay yep i'm good thumbs up yeah all right cool you know like like just that with a small dose can be can be everything i mean you have incredible high amount of downloads and i figured that out too finally and like uh ayahuasca journey 28 or 29 something like that i remember um tell we were down at sultara and i remember telling uh a merrygo and olgo were the two practitioners They've been married, practicing medicine people for 30 plus years. And she goes, you know, you don't need to take that much. And I was like, I'm only doing like two or three cups.

I'm not doing that much. You know, I don't go over with ayahuasca. You're the one pouring it for me. Like, what do you mean? I need to take that much. And she reiterated originally the Biasro would drink and sing and the music, the tone would come through. And that would heal the person without the person even having it. Right.

So like visions don't have to be a part of the program. for you to unlock the reason for you being here, right? Your intention can be met with all the guidance and all the grace you could ever ask for without having to have really cool visions, you know? And so understanding that, that is, you know, not just an ayahuasca thing, but it's a psilocybin thing. It's a meditation thing. It's a darkness retreat thing, right? Like, I don't need to have the visions to unlock the understanding that I'm looking for.

It's a life thing. Yeah, brother. It's the old Ram Dass story about when he's talking to his teacher, Emmanuel, and he's sort of saying what you're saying. And also, like, the high states, the alternate states are so incredible. But it's a bummer to come down because, you know, we have to be here in this muck. And teacher is like, oh, Ram Dass, did you ever consider that you're in a school? Why don't you try taking the curriculum life?

Like, this is the point. and in the same way that you're saying like these different levels of dosages it's like in some ways they are mega amplifiers but they're also training you about how to listen and pay attention that there is no boundary technically between these places and states and that right here in this place it's all right here it's all right here like we don't need anything really and everything that's coming up every person we meet all that especially the challenges we face that is the grist for the mill that is the soul smiling that is the crucible the soul development in my opinion and and in that way life is the point and these experiences we're speaking of our part of life no of course

but part and parcel like the ground level like there's a master design in a sense to this it is perfect in its depth and complexity and of course it would be like it is if we were to design I mean come on if you were omnipresent and you were saying I'm going to make a playing field the Dharma it would be like this it'd be everything you know from humor and the sacred and the profane and like absurdity and deep powerful moments and brotherly love and humor and creativity and devastation and like pain it's this everything So in some ways, it's almost like writ large across the sky. Like, it's duh.

Like, it's so obvious. It's right here, you know, rainbows and like Romanesque broccoli and mushrooms. And yet it's a fish asking a fish what water is. We become completely in the dream and connecting to the beginning of what we were talking about, about being in the land and moving rocks and the pain in that. but it also awakens us to just what is outside of our digital noise-induced even worse, like information reality tunnels that we're all getting in this interesting experiment of no more objective truth and we're all digitized cyborgs.

Not that even that's divine, but nonetheless, it's a vast experiment that's been foisted upon. us very quickly, you know, since, I don't know, 2012 or so when things really kind of took off. All right, guys, quick break to tell you about one of our longest running show sponsors, lucy.com. Let's level up your nicotine routine with Lucy. Go to lucy.com slash KKP and use promo code KKP to get 20% off your first order. Lucy offers free shipping and has a 30-day refund policy if you change your mind. That's lucy.com and use code KKP to get 20% off and always free shipping. And here comes the fine print. Lucy products are only for adults of legal age, and every order is age verified. Warning, this product contains nicotine. Nicotine is an addictive

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That's probably why it's addictive. It feels good. Let's be honest. It feels good to rock nicotine. I love the mint. I rock the 12-mig pouches, but start slow. Work your way up. There's no reason to jump up.

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this playing field and so most people are essentially overwhelmed and they anesthetize we all nestatize ourselves in different ways because it's intense it's so much but when you do lean in, there's a lot there, just right here. And in some ways, when the fire's burning really hot for some of us and things are going on, it's like, I look at those people with gratitude because it's like, okay, you're burning that fire for us too. And that, that too takes a lot of courage. Yeah, brother. Anyway, that's, you know, I always like to zoom out for myself. I'm always like, just like wait a minute hold on what's going on you know because it's so easy to just be in our things are you know i like to do this and our all the things and the duties of life that are a lot in

itself yeah i think of the the the speed at which life has progressed you know and i don't know if it's a factor of aging because you know remember when i was young and i'm sure this happened to you when an old timer would say appreciate life now because it goes by quick like any kind of saying like that or even you know yeah um being a dad you know it's like oh well love them while they're young they're going to be adults soon and you're like no this is taking forever i feel like my wiping life and asses for 10 years now you know like it doesn't feel like that and then all of a sudden it does and all of a sudden the years do go by super quick and uh the days are long but the years are short you know that's another another quote now that really resonates the days

along with the years are short. And the tools are the one thing that allows me to feel like no matter what's happening externally and no matter how large the to-do list is, it's the only thing that the tool is being meditation or some type of altered state that kind of breaks the habit of being myself are the only thing to create enough spaciousness to slow down time, to slow down everything to where I can't appreciate everything on the list, every piece that's coming up, and so I you know and I wouldn't have had that I I'm I'm an avid meditator now I don't have that's probably why I do maybe one journey a year now you know um yeah I wasco once every couple years now

and it's not that I don't appreciate the medicines I love them but I'm not dependent upon them you know I don't have to write down a list for things to ask mother I this December because if I have those questions I'm going to sit in meditation in this office and and at the very least I'm going to have a quiet mind and I'm going to feel like it's all good again you know whether I've solved the riddle or not, you know, there's a piece that comes from that that, that I never really had before. And I think that that, you know, I do give credit to ayahuasca and psilocybin for, for pushing the pressure on me to meditate and to do yoga and to take care of myself in a different way. Like that didn't come from somebody else that came from

the medicine. You know, my journey is saying, hey, you should meditate every day. Hey, you should start doing yoga. You're stiff. You know, like there's a lot of things. That's personal, right? Like the Oracle, I always appreciate, you know, in The Matrix when, when, God, what's his name, Morpheus tells Neo, like whatever she told you, it's for you and you alone, right? Whatever the Oracle told you is for you and you alone. And I don't, you know, try to prescribe my shit on everyone else. But that's where I learned it from. For all the yogis that say you don't have to take those medicines to get there, it's like, yeah, but I never even looked at what you guys are doing without those medicines encouraging me to do so, you know? So I've just got all the love there in the world for psilocybin and ayahuasca and also the fact that now, you know, because of having gone through those things and done the work, there is a list.

There's an arsenal in the toolbox that I can choose from and very few of those of which are now plant medicines. I feel the same way personally. I was at Psychedelic Science Conference and I saw Leonard Picard. You know Leonard Picard talk? he like he made a lot of the acid like maybe most of it in the day and he somehow got busted and they wanted to make an example of him so they gave him life in prison and after 20 years I don't know if it got commuted or some fortunate happenstance he just got out recently he's he's an old man now and he was in solitary for a lot of it and a lot of us not only would

you'd be bitter and broken, he became, like, his energy is just tender and quiet and Buddha-like. And he's just, this mesmerizing energy, and he's on stage, speaking quietly and telling little jokes and little stories and aphorisms. I mean, stories like he was cooking up a batch of acid and, you know, these big, like, I don't know, these chemistry things, like glass vials. boiling or whatever yeah and he's doing his thing where you have to put it in this other thing and he's he breaks it and spills it all over himself and he has millions of doses of acid soaking through his skin millions and of course he knew this immediately and he's alone in some like cabin

where he's making this and he's just like tells a story of how like he went outside as it was starting to like and he just like started to like sit down before he like lost all reality and uh you know These are the experiences he went through. But this moment happened. As he's talking, his microphone kept going out. It was just odd. And then there were two other people on stage, so they would hand them their wireless microphone,

which was working. And then every time he put it to his mouth, it would just cut out, you know, strange. And eventually he just stands up in this big room with no microphone and puts his arms up. And we're all. all just waiting with bated breath. And he's like, you don't need drugs.

He's like, it's all within you. And this is what he discovered, like in prison. Like, it's all within us. Like, it's just there. And he's not saying don't do drugs. He's saying you don't need drugs. And you are, he's like, it's all becoming like, we're, I'm paraphrasing, but that essentially we're these angelic beings.

And it's all naturally. just unfolding through us. It's like, allow it to happen. And it was so inspiring for someone who not only was like making most of the asset people were taking, but then was punished so severely for it in a very political way. And it's come out of that as a profound humanist, really, as a way of saying, like, we have such potential as people. And it's, it's just loving energy.

So it's just something I wanted to share thinking about, like, You know, like, that's the point, really. Like, love is the point, you know, our, us being what we are and our potential is the point. And it's all just right here. Yeah. You know what? It feels better, though, personally, coming from a guy who had millions of doses of hell yeah.

It's a lot better than, like, the straight edge guy who's never done a single drug, doesn't do caffeine, never had nicotine, you know, or it was of one beer, you know, and that's the guy who's telling me. It's like, no, you don't get to say that. He's seen the edges. Yeah, I respect that. It's like, you know, you've gone out there. Full on. Yeah.

That's sort of like, I feel like if you want to be president, it's that Graham Hancock idea, you should do ayahuasca at least a dozen times. Like, there should be certain requirements that, you know, you've dug out into your soul. You've got, you know, you've got some strength in there. You've seen some things. It's like you should have experience. Have you seen the AI video of Trump right before he went in, right before he got reelected with him going to the Amazon and drinking ayahuasca? Yeah, I actually. was on this what's it like a course call whatever the dude who made that what's his name um

i want to give him credit but um he it's really interesting because he was in like the commercial space and then he started playing around these AI tools with his daughter just for fun because she wanted to make a particular video and then he started anyway his main his main north star is like if i can only make these if they're never like monetized and it's fun for me and then it works And so he keeps doing it. But it's basically just because it's play for him. And he has a great time doing that. And he can make these things in like a day or two.

And he showed us how he's doing. It uses all the tools like Suno. He's a little audio. And then he makes like an image on like chat GPT or something. And then uses that image into the video one. And that gives it a start. You know, okay, now we're going to animate this. And he was a filmmaker.

So he's like, I want it to be a rap. focus where it comes into the thought so he knew what he was doing but they're all just consumer tools that's so cool that he's got he's got the pedigree for it that video is i mean it blew me away and it's so many it's funny how so many people were like oh my god i hope this is true and i'm like it's not but you know like this is this is a part of the this is what's true anymore it's the imagination right like they what a cool way to use your imagination and it's it just cracked me up that he turns into like a breathwork practitioner and he's got the big one beard how he's hugging yeah he's empathetic yeah the compassion goes up all the good stuff goes

up those that was great yeah yeah there's i mean i haven't been very active in social media like i have my own page for east forest but beyond that i don't see a lot and um i can't handle it like it's just i can't like be i haven't for many years actually seeing a proper feed except for youtube i personally use YouTube just to like that's sort of like my one probably TV weakness it's like TV basically that is technically a feed and news is a feed algorithmically I mean actually when we Google things we're seeing different results now which is crazy it's crazy you think that so it's like it's hard to we're in some ways being manipulated in different ways on again like what is ground level or what is you know a shared truth it might

not even be the same thing from what we see. And at least you want to have that knowledge and be like, well, okay, at least I can try and be aware of that. But a lot of folks, TikTok, I mean, forget it. You know, it's just like completely, I was on the flight the other day and someone next to me was just doing the TikTok thumb for like five hours straight. And I'm just like, God. Not even face.

Just in the zone. Yeah. like with their partner or whatever and they're both they're not talking they're just each and they're like really having to they're like bonding over like let's go deep we have five hours like let's binge yeah I took four years off Instagram and I got back on with you know the fact that that fit for service was having such big changes I knew like I got to build my own brand and so I've gotten back on and it's funny though like looking at my wife's page versus mine like when she shows me her phone and her feed hers is like the funniest dance

videos animals you know doing stupid shit you know like she'll show videos to me and the kids and I'm like god your feed's great like mine's like ancient civilizations tartaria you know like the blimps why don't we have blimps anymore why they why they why they don't we have blimps that's a new one for me yeah I never thought about that the air the airship so I guess that so that this is a fun one too is one of the many conspiracies that I'm into is that they blew up the Hindenburg on purpose to get rid of the airships because airships could stay in the air for like six to 18 months and they'd refuel up these docking stations like all the cathedrals have these antenna so with these sasic waves sazar waves that are more powerful than laser beams they could come and power up from

the basically from the ether and that they had enough food on deck they could grow food they could do all sorts of shit up there they had like sleeping courts the best way to travels i just think about that there's photos and stuff i don't know how if they're if they're if they're cg i or computer graph you know you know it created or whatnot but it's a cool i love thinking about the alternate realities like that you know and like maybe this is just the the mandela effect you know like bernstein versus berenstein bears and um that kind of shit but like i look back on that i'm like so much potentially happen mud floods things like that like you think of I don't know if you've seen videos like this where the all of the the the white house has been

rebuilt over the original white house so like back in there's pictures supposedly of like the white house being the exact same underneath the white house and windows that only come up to like halfway to the street so like why would somebody put a window in there you know well that's because the street level rose those kind of things so there's it's funny and it's funny talking to chat gpte about stuff like that because my chat now won't just give me the mainstream it'll tell me the conspiracy angle as well like at least show me both give me two sides of the story here you know so that's been interesting playing with tools like that how's your life been lately it feels like mine is a never-ending hustle the constant juggling of responsibilities the endless to-do list

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show. Conspiracies are fun. They're way fun, but they're intoxicating. It's like you get drunk off conspiracy theory because it's like it hits all these parts of our like psyche i think that are it's it's sort of um it's candy in that way it's a very tasty um but and it's challenging because you know it's playing with truths it's not just like taking i mean some of them are kind of whack a deck but it's taking things that are partially true typically and then amplifying them in different ways and running with it and it's very easy to play with that. I mean, I, dude, I went so deep back in 2008, same time, I was into the alien stuff.

And I want to believe. And I won't even get into it. I mean, but the point is, at one point, I went to an alien conference. I went that far. Where were you in New Mexico? No, it was in the one on Mount Adams. I forget that dude's name. What does he run that place?

The Sumpthineral Ranch. in Washington, southern Washington. It's on the tip of my tongue. But he, man, anyway, I went and I'm going to the talks and meeting all these people. And one night we went out because this area, you would always say, like, you could see a lot of stuff, like especially going into Mount Adams. And I'm like, I want to see it, right? I grew up in Oregon, so this isn't far from me.

And I'm out there with people at night. and this one dude like has this app and it's it for instance it said the international space station it will tell you it's like oh it's going to come across the sky in like 92 seconds or whatever and sure enough it comes across the sky but half the people there are like that's craft and I'm like well I think that we know is the station you know but no no no for them 100% they're looking at a craft or I was looking at certain satellites clearly as a satellite and those people, that was a craft. And it really taught me about people's stories

and what personal experience or eyewitness accounts is like, oh, okay, you got to take that with a little bit of a looser grip here because for some people, everyone sees different things or knows different things or even just what they experienced firsthand to them. That was their truth. And it was their truth.

It is their truth. It's just for me, it might have been something different. And even I think about myself, the things that I'm like, this is what I know to be true, just to hold it a little looser and bring in a little more like, maybe, maybe, and that's the world of nuance, you know, and that's something that we need so much more of these days just to be like, it's okay to be like, I think this, probably this, or I'm pretty sure this, but it's rare that there are things that were like, I definitely know this.

And there are some things. Yes, absolutely. And you should have those things in life. Like, I'm touching a table right now. I'm going to, I'm going to just say I know that, even though we could go further. But, fuck it. I'm touching a table. Like, but I think it's good for us to hold a little bit of the I don't know.

And then it loosens our sense of identity around it, too, right? It's like, I can, I can love aliens or believe in the alien thing and also say, like, there's a lot. I don't know. And I've continued to talk about it and listen and learn new things. and it's weird, you know, it's confounding. And so many things are like that. And it doesn't mean I'm just sticking my head in the sand and saying, oh, I'm not going to like participate.

It's just saying like, well, look, there's a difference between certainty. And I love just this idea of like loosening the grip. I'm still holding something, but I'm not gripping it as much. Yeah, I love that. There's a, when you brought up the aliens and maybe think of a, One of my first mushroom journeys with my coach, Meister Oweetsi, who passed away, was my boxing coach. I told you about him on a previous podcast, but that's the guy who was Mestizo, Aztec and Mexican. He was like, little guy, like five foot even, you know, fought at 105 pounds.

But he'd always hold nits for me, and then he'd bring me out for sweat lodges and stuff. So we're out at the Native American Reservation in Northern California, and he's got like eight thugs from east side San Jose with the neck tattoos and everything. And they're dead sober. and there's five fighters that are all blasted on mushrooms that we ate psilocybin right before we went into the sweat lodge so we come out of it perfectly clear night no moon and it's in this canyon so like it blocks out all white pollution from the cities because it's not far from other big cities and you can see every star in the sky it's like being in Oregon you know where you're just like holy shit i didn't realize it was this many stars and so we come out and we're going for a little

walk before we are incapacitated. And all of us stop, all 13 of us stop and point and hold each other like this. We're holding each other's shoulders. Eight sober guys, dead sober, five dudes on mushrooms, and a coach who's probably had, I don't know, a cap, right? Like a very modest micro, maybe 0.2, you know, 20 milligrams, something like that, right? And we all see the same thing. We see this white dot looking like a star, floats back and forth. stops on a dime, moves back the other direction, then starts to move in a different direction and it expands and then vanishes. And I'm like, holy shit, that's the fucking first UFO I've ever seen.

That is for sure a UFO. Holy shit, did you see that? And I'm like verifying with everybody there. And Wheatty turns to me and he goes, did you see that spirit? And I was like, spirit. That was a fucking UFO. And I was like, oh, wait. Maybe that was a spirit.

Who am I to say that wasn't a spirit? You know, he saw a spirit, though. I saw UFO, you know? And so, like, that really was, that was the first, like, on medicine, too. So it hit me hard, like, I don't know what I saw. It certainly didn't move like an airplane, you know, and it was moving around in space, but it could have been a spirit. You know, why would I have to assume that's some alien craft or palladian technology, you know?

Beliefs are things we hold, right? Like, we choose to hold them. But Terrence McKenna had that funny line about UFOs where people would say, someone says they saw a UFO and the first question typically as well you know were you loaded when you saw this weird and the person replies of course I was that's why I saw the UFO it's not discounting anything it is the reason I was able to see it or it's like when you're going squatching we run out for Sasquatch and if you don't see Sasquatch the Sasquatch and people community will say well you're just not ready you know you're not ready to see him it's not that he

didn't show himself to you you are not able to see him yet like you know so i like to think about you know squatchen's a good like metaphor for anything it's like we're ready when we think we when we decide in essence like what we want to allow or accept or conjure but i mean fuck it it's all dream is giant like but boy i would love to see something like that man i've looked i've looked i've seen some things but not like that yeah it'd be cool i've been getting into like see a lot of giant videos too like giants and uh you know other humanoid races on the planet kind of stuff you know there's like pictures of guy like a five foot tall dude standing next to a femur and the femur's bigger than he is and i'm like that's a human leg bone that's bigger than this guy like trying to do

the math on it. Is there a 20-foot person? Like, this is crazy. And then they'll show photos of all the cathedrals with these giant 50-foot doors that make no sense unless giants were potentially entering it, you know, and they're trying to connect dots that may or may not be there. But it does fascinate me. And I would love to know that there's other land, other races, other highly involved beings, you know, what did Neil Donald Walsh call it? He calls them HEBs. It's funny because we have an HEB grocery store here in Texas. But an HEB is a highly evolved being, right?

So like the highly evolved being, like who doesn't want to make contact with that? You know, and you hear somebody like Rondas, who you and I both, I mean, you knew personally, but both of us learned a lot from and loved dearly. You know, like I respect the fuck out of Rondas and his teachings. And, you know, he talks about, you know, everything he learned from his teacher. And then also when he started working with Emmanuel, who's an H.E. a highly evolved being, you know, without, which I usually don't say that, right? Because for the average person, they're just like, it would be this red herring that they

stop listening in a way. Yeah. Like, oh, that's it. I'm out. I'm out. Yeah. But yeah, I mean, the fact that like he was, he was who he was and had a relationship with the thing that, like, clearly, I don't think he's making that up.

I don't think he has any reason to whatsoever. Yeah. There's nothing to gain by telling that story, which he does. Right. Yeah. anything to lose from a credibility standpoint yeah but um i've had experiences on medicine or otherwise where it really felt like this isn't my consciousness now every we're all one i get that too right like so paradoxically there's nothing but the one um but at the same time like it wasn't

kyle kingsbury's consciousness that i was interfacing with it was something else's consciousness i was interfacing with and i think with all the journeys ramsas is done and otherwise he would be able to tell the difference between what's coming from me and what's coming out from outside of me yeah and he was like fascinating you know he had a deep background of psychology too so i mean you'd think he would have a special knowledge about um just delusion and or multiple personalities i can i mean i don't personally care right i'm i'm totally down i make whatever insights people receive in different ways in life to me it's all insight it's like creativity itself like where does that come from it's like i i'm more interested in just

like experiencing and hearing the insight and taking it in for whatever is useful um but you totally i'm so happy you brought that up about rambas because it is sort of like a deeper cut about knowing him and his work and he he did continue to talk about that and he did a lot of things where he kind put himself out there much much long much earlier in this cycle of cultural consciousness too where there was really no background for that there was no there weren't I mean borderline channeling in a sense and I have no problem with that because I'm just like you know else I'm really into is Edgar Casey yeah fascinating fascinating stuff and I've been It was listening to a lot of what he said about reincarnation in past lives.

And I got really into this book, Journey of Souls, that was written by a hypnotherapist. Not a difficult read by any means, but Michael Newton. And he basically was just doing his practice of hypnotherapy and was developing a particular hypnotherapy that was very, very deep. And people started reporting these life-between-life stuff. And at first, he sort of put it aside because that wasn't necessary what they're trying to do in the sessions. But it kept happening and he kept recording them and writing them down and seeing these patterns. And then he kept exploring this space with patients and he wrote a book. And for me, it just had a real resonance of truth.

I just like, yeah, that makes sense to me of like the design of the soul experiment. And anyway, it's a lot of crossover with Edgar Casey's work about, essentially the soul space or if you want to call it the afterlife but uh i love that i find that totally fascinating yeah dude i'm sure as you brought up hypnotherapy and made me think of dolores cannon's work and yeah similarly you know like working with a lot of people and then you know she starts off as like basic as all hell you know like let's do smoking cessation and alcohol addiction and like next thing you know yeah yeah exactly yeah exactly and then it starts coming through right but um yeah she's she was she was brilliant i've read a number of her books um

when you when you've been to a place on medicine or otherwise where like you touch point with the eternal like that can be one of the scariest places i've ever been right because it's like if it is once you grapple with fucking what it actually means to be eternal it's like holy shit like everything you've ever thought just like poof you know like all importance of what i have to do now is just doesn't exist, right? It's like we're eternal beings. At the same point, when you think of the grand design, and I have firmly believed with every fiber of my being that this is an intelligent design game that we're in. And when I think about that, how would we play the infinite game? You know, the game that's never going to end, that has to continually rewrite itself, to

continually fold in upon itself and unfold, to continually destroy itself and create new at the same time, you know, the auriboros feeding off its own body. It makes sense that, that, you know, we would have an ongoing ability to play the game through various avatars and that we would, you know, that just, it just makes perfect sense. It doesn't make sense at all. I mean, I think so, it doesn't make sense at all to be one and done. And the, um, I used to, I'm trying to think of the guy's name. He was an astronomer, Carl, Carl, Carl Sagan. You know, he said, if we're the only intelligent life in the universe, what a waste of space, right? And I thought like, yeah, and to that point, if we only get one life, what a waste of time.

Yeah. Right? Because it's like, it is a freaking blip. You know, 100 years, in the billions of years, the universe has been around as an absolute blip. It's less than a blink of an eye. Yeah. The metaphor I like to use is a cosmic game of peekaboo. because when you see a baby, you play a peekaboo, the baby truly forgets and remembers.

Like, you disappear, you reappear. And in that reappearing, it's just full remembering, and you see that blast of just pure joy and the giggles. And it's kind of like that feeling is just very, very pure love and joy and bliss. And you could argue perhaps all of this, if you were all that is, is a way to play peek-a-boo with yourself so that you can essentially love more or but i don't even like the word more because that's sort of stupid that's linear in a way but that wall you talked about walsh that's conversations with god right yeah yeah and so that first book i love the first pages of that book we're sort of like okay why and it's just lays it out well all that is is

all that is and all that is can only know or experience all it is so we create all that is not and then when there's all is a not you go through this whole thing of the journey of essentially remembering hence the game of peekaboo it's it's inevitable and you and actually end up in you never went anywhere but by by creating polarity in contrast um you can love it creates like a verb in a sense and i even try to think that the universe itself is just one way of doing that and that's something that's talked about in some of these books or some of these people report this and their soul experiences it's a bit oblique but the idea that this is duality this entire universe is a particular universe and it's just

one playing field and it's considered one of the harder playing fields but it's also one of the more potent ones like really rich and ramdas saying like when you're sad or you're grieving, like you're closer to God. It's because it's so rich. It's not fun, but you're very close to God. You're very close to the source experience. And so you could look at not just this universe, which is unbelievably incomprehensibly large. Just in this universe, mathematically speaking, there is life elsewhere. What that life is, I don't know. But it's so big that the odds that there's other forms of intelligence in all sorts of different shapes and sizes like it's it's it's just a constant it's a one so that's not even really much of a theory

that's just do the math on stars and planets and time whether or not you know we've interacted i guess you could argue just because of the scale of space it's hard it's hard to know but when you do psychedelics you start to think it's not through rivets and rockets that you're probably going to get around it's going to start going to be in other forms of technology And that starts to make a lot more sense that we're just in these very nascent baby forms of whatever that tech is, especially when we start looping in, like, silicone and AI and like, who knows or quantum reality. I mean, that's when I say reality, that's a thing. Like, it's not, and it's weird. It's spooky, as Einstein said.

And that's coming online, you know, ways to use quantum computing at the same time that AI is coming online. so these sorts of things it's like it does feel that like we're in some kind of concrescence as mckenna would say like there's some some eschaton that we are that you know hurtling towards in this exponential rise it but i don't know when where what that means i i don't know you know people talk about a singularity or there or it's is it collapse or is it is it through that is a spiritual recognition or is it all the above but it's clearly there is a acceleration that is on face value undeniable absolutely brother yeah so tell me tell me what you've got what have you got what have you got here i'm going to we'll put you know everything you've got

here in the show notes the the documentary i want to watch that as well so i'm super sure to watch that yeah so yeah check out music for mushrooms you know what we'll do is we'll give you a link so it's free for your listeners for like a couple weeks and that way they can just watch it. And so we'll hook you up with that. I've been doing a lot of live music and touring. So I'm doing a big tour. I'm playing in, I don't know when this comes out,

but I'll be in California in L.A. area in the middle of September, and then in November, I'm doing a bunch of dates and then northeast and Midwest, and then a little bit in Europe, top of the year, and the next year, top of the year, hopefully the west coast mountain states probably australia in october so i mean just trying to

a lot of my energy aside from throwing rocks around in utah has been the live space it it takes a lot of energy when you're doing it you know man when you're touring it just takes all of your time it's so all-consuming like energetically physically of course just getting around and then preparing for it takes a lot of time. Like rehearsing and devising and then planning and getting it all logistically figured out. It's kind of nuts. Like not to like go on a total side tangent,

but I think a lot about AI and music. And I like to try and plan or think about where things are going and diversifying. And I do think recorded music will get pretty washed out because it's sort of like oversaturated. like we're going towards a peak content kind of thing on all levels where we're just like we're already kind of there but it's going to get much more when you can make really hard things instantly and easily and repeatedly so the live space would probably be more valuable to us

and more of a potent medicine and in that way I have a recognition that like okay like that's where I can probably meet people in the most powerful way but it happens to to be the thing that takes the most energy and time and we ain't getting any younger so it's like it's tough man um like it's the most fulfilling but it's also the most like draining and stressful it's a lot to like go through it also in in your position you know like you've got to come in with the work that you're doing an empty vessel you know like you got to take you can't come in it's not you have to have an off day you can't show mad that that something everyone's like You're East Forest.

You're supposed to be like, if I bump into someone, there's like, that it's projection about like, this is going to be, you're like a vegan. I'm like, no. I mean, it's okay, but I'm not, you know, and like, I'm just a guy and I'm sorry to disappoint you. But yeah, there's a lot of role play. And you know what? That's not bad. Like, that's kind of the point. Like, the point is to inspire.

I get inspired by doing it. But it's just like Ram Dass. Ram Dass was a guy who did a lot of work on himself, but he was a guy. And even with that, I would see a lot of people project on him like this guru thing or like just sort of almost like superhuman type thing. And they're kind of giving away their own power in a sense because it's like you're like him too. Like he just dedicated. He just kept opening and really being vulnerable and dropping things and dropping things and, you know, he kept becoming nobody. and that's a tricky thing when any level of fame or notoriety is involved

because talking about drugs and stuff right and the ego and you know this i'm sure like the more people look up to you and they project things on you which is no judgment on it's just how it is you have to decide you know about your own sense of integrity and truth and where's your moral center and your sense of identity is just frankly a person just like any other person and the privacy of your own heart as ramdas would say that's the real work for all of us i mean that's think that's so beautiful the privacy of our own heart is the real work and we know that but we're in a space where it's about the economy of scale and so many people have platforms that shouldn't have platforms and that's just part of the design

of this thing we're in if you're divisive your platform will grow the algorithm will feed you because that makes money and and it's this very strange mechanism that if you play that game you can have a platform not everyone is like that but that is a very easy tactic you know and you start to become you start to become like someone truly a snake eating your own tail and eventually you probably lose yourself i mean i would say trump's the ultimate example of that you know of just only focused on optics and sense of self and how people view him and the fragility of that what's in the privacy of that heart. But it's the real work. It's the real work. So in that way, there's, as you're saying, when we sense there are all one thing or something,

there's nowhere to run. You know, if you're immortal or if there's no, if it just goes on and on, you know, there's nowhere you can go to hide because you're still in it. Therefore, It's like, well, as Ram Dass said, you might as well take the curriculum because it's kind of the only game in town. There's no way you can pretend. You can hide from it for a long time. And you know what? All choices are valid. Everybody graduates, as I said before.

But it's you're time rich. So not even saying like, oh, you got to do this or that. It's like, it'll all happen. It'll all happen. I love that, brother. Well, it's all I always love to get to sit with you. It's been excellent. I can't wait to see you again.

I don't know if you're going to have any tours through Texas again, but yeah, I hope to put something together here at the farm. It would be rad. Yeah, yeah, not to see you in the family. Yeah, it would be super cool, brother. Yeah. Yeah, thanks so much for saying hi. It was really great to hear from you. And as much as I would have loved to have been sitting in that chair behind you,

it's hilarious that you're like yeah come on in I'm a few thousand miles away but I would I would here's the gate code yeah noted noted beautiful brother well Christian it's always a pleasure brother I love you big time give Rod a big hug and kiss for me I will and I hope to see you soon brother thanks sir thank you B3 sciences is a phenomenal company I've had Dr. Mike to board on this podcast a handful of three times at least. I'm going to have them back on coming out in the fall. The reason for this is blood flow restriction has been studied for at least 20 to 30 years out in Japan, and the science from it is remarkable. The science from this has actually led to a lot of studying in altitude training. What happens to our bodies when we train in an oxygen deficit?

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