Kyle Kingsbury Podcast - #445 Family, Friends, & The Stories That Bind Us" w/ Kyle Thiermann

Episode Date: February 15, 2026

In this podcast, Kyle welcomes Kyle Thiermann, an expert guest who delves into the concept of promises in programming. Key topics discussed include the definition of promises, their role in asynchronous operations, and how they improve code readability and error handling. The conversation also covers best practices for implementing promises, common pitfalls, and real-world applications where promises are beneficial. Kyle Thiermann is an award-winning journalist, Patagonia surf ambassador, author, and podcast host with over 400 episodes. His work spans conversations with leaders in health, sport, and culture, and reporting for Outside, Surfer, and Discovery on environmental and social issues around the world. Known for his curiosity and humor, Kyle blends thoughtful storytelling with a grounded, human perspective. From Kyle: The Community is coming! Click here to learn more Connect with Kyle Thiermann here: Instagram ONE LAST QUESTION BEFORE YOU GO Our Sponsors: Let’s level up your nicotine routine with Lucy. Go to Lucy.co/KKP and use promo code (KKP) to get 20% off your first order. Lucy offers FREE SHIPPING and has a 30-day refund policy if you change your mind.   Connect with Kyle: I'm back on Instagram, come say hey @kylekingsbu Twitter: @kingsbu Our Farm Initiative: @gardenersofeden.earth Odysee: odysee.com/@KyleKingsburypod Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/@Kyle-Kingsbury Kyle's Website: www.kingsbu.com - Gardeners of Eden site If you enjoyed this podcast, please subscribe & leave a 5-star review with your thoughts!

Welcome to today's podcast. We have the return, the long-awaited return. My brother, Kyle T-Man, as I've affectionately called him for a very long time, is somebody I've known, God, I don't even know how long now. It's closing the 10-year mark, somewhere around there. He was, you know, we're from similar neck of the woods. He's from Santa Cruz. I'm from San Jose, South Bay-ish. But we've had some of the most epic adventures together, you know, and I brought Teaman out to Austin, to party and have fun in the scene when we first got here. We did some really cool shit. Like we went to the Houston's Museum of Natural Sciences on a little bit of mushrooms. Phenomenal. Some of the best experiences I've ever had. And we've done so much. And, you know, T-Man is somebody who has introduced me to many great thinkers,

guys like Charles Eisenstein, Dr. Chris Ryan, and many others that has really shaped my view of the world and helped me to expand and try things on for myself and see what fits and what doesn't. And I love that about him. He just wrote a book that is. absolutely phenomenal. And it's all about interviewing your parents before they die and why you should do it. And the book is incredible. It's short. It's to the point. It's got a lot of funny stories in it. But we dived into that on this podcast and much more. And I think that's a

touchy relationship for a lot of people. And it makes a lot of sense on why you would do this. It makes a lot of sense on understanding who you are and where you come from and what your parents went through and why they shaped you the way that they did. You know, as a dad, I think about that consistently. What have I done to improve upon my upbringing? And what am I doing still that I'd like to improve upon? And what did my parents do? Because they improved. They improved a shit ton from my grandparents. There's no question about that. And how hard was it from my grandparents? Because they improved. Right. So I'm just really seeing that a lot of people in the spiritual community now are like, oh, we're going to reverse family trauma, seven generations past.

and forward and it's like, well, you're only in that position because the last seven generations have been trying. You may not recognize that, but most likely that's the case. Most likely each group of each generation was trying their very best to do better than the previous. And so it's a cool way to reframe things because I don't think it was easy for a lot of us, but it does make more sense when you start to see things from a new lens. Anywho, this podcast was dope. It was really too long for Tierman and I to get on. So I will expect, I'm just going to put it out there. Tierman and I we'll be podcasting again on a more regular basis. As I said, he's just introduced me to too many great minds, not to.

And yeah, share this with friends. Interview your parents, even if you don't podcast with them. My dad came to town for Full Temple Reset right after this podcast, and I had some of the best conversations I've ever had for them because of that. All right, without further ado, my brother, Kyle Tierman. All right, I've sat across some awesome people here in the last few weeks. Aaron Siri, Dr. Andrew Wakefield, some really dope people in the vaccine space. Aaron was like Del Bigtree's main lawyer for the last decade and Bobby Kennedy's and he's done a lot of work with children's health defense.

So and he just wrote a book called Vaccines Amen, which is awesome. And now you're the second author in a matter of weeks that I get to interview an old friend of course, Kyle Tierman, T-Man. And the book is one last question before you go. Why you should interview your parents. Let's get into it. This is the best. Now I want to talk all sorts of shit because it's been too fucking long since we've hung out. I felt like when I first moved to Austin, I saw you at least two or three times you'd come out.

Yeah, I mean, we had a good, I remember I stayed at your house for a week. You gave me DMT for the first time. You broke my DMT cherry. And I just love you, man. I mean, we always have such a good time and so many fun laughs whenever we hang out. So it's been too long. And I'm so proud of you for having actualized. on this space. I mean, at your at your compound right now. I mean, it takes a lot to

metaphorically and literally move Earth, which is what it seems like you've been up to for the past few years. So it's, it's awesome to see the life you've built for yourself. Hell you know, brother. Well, I mean, God, so much has happened since you've been out here for both of us. And you've been writing up a storm. You were writing with mud water for a while. And you actually go, I didn't realize this. I had heard it before, but it didn't click for me when you took the job with Mudwater that you guys were old homies right so you talked about that you're roommates at some point in the book just good friends uh Shane Heath founder of Mudwater uh you know we were homies growing up in Santa Cruz and we went to Burning Man really early on we're you know

into he was he was the first one who sent me a Joe Rogan episode like episode 12 or something like that. It was just into the you know, Rom Doss and spirituality and like we would go to high school parties and he would be like, dude, you guys should try this cacao.

Like I've been doing this cacao. I'm like, okay, cool. I've never heard of this shit. You know, electronic music. So I just always appreciated what an independent thinker he was. And then he started doing mudwater just out of his out of his backyard. You know, after he took a

a trip to India for six months and learned about chai and the and medicinal mushrooms. But he was always really funny, you know, so he was always really funny. And he found that in the wellness space, there were a lot of these brands that were being created that were sort of humorless and sanctimonious in the way they were talking about. Like, it's the spiritual benefit. And it's like, yeah, that's all good shit. But can we all laugh about it too and have a little bit of edge and some storytelling and also plant a steak in the ground around psychedella? and say that this is actually really good and useful technology. And there was a moment when, you know,

I think more companies are willing to take that stance. But in even 2019, I think when he started it, very few companies were willing to take a stance on psychedelics. So they donated a portion of their proceeds to that. And, you know, the company just exploded really, really quickly. And I was hired as the copywriter there. so defining the brand tone and voice. I always say that I help develop that brand voice through text messages with Shane.

Like if you're looking for a brand voice and a personality that you're trying to create, think of your buddy who you send the stupid text messages to, and that's the center of the bull's eye for a brand voice. And yeah, it worked out really well. It's still going strong. and I now have since started my own creative agency, so we work with a number of other brands as well as Mudwater, but Shane's still a good friend and I'm really proud of him.

That's super cool. Yeah, I've had a ton of memories coming up. Even just when you popped, I don't think you've met Wolf yet, but you brought back the memory of going to the Children's Discovery Museum. I just brought her and bare there for the first time in her life. So it's been at least five years since I had gone. And I'm pretty sure we ate mushrooms. before that.

We did. It was a psychedelic week for us. Yes. So the mushrooms before the Children's Discovery Museum was freaking rad. I was like, damn, I totally forgot about that. The experience on mushrooms in the butterfly garden. They have a place you go to the butterfly garden and played frisbee out in the field afterwards. Well, Barry got so upset.

I tried to tell him this story on the drive down because I didn't want Wolf to get upset being younger. Like there was an old lady in there who just stood quietly, like the chicken home alone too in the park with the pigeons. Yes. You know, she just has the gift. She's still, she, you know, whatever. So she's just sitting there and she's got hundreds of butterflies on her. And I don't know if Bear was three or four, but he was so distraught that he couldn't get

butterflies to land on him. And so he chased after him. You know, I'm like, that's not going to get a buddy. You know, he was so mad leaving there. And I remember that. That was like, dude, that was a crystal clear memory that was completely gone. Like, it was just gone until I was on my way there. And then that happened.

And then even more of this is coming back now because we were there on mushrooms when that happened. That was dope, dude. Isn't it interesting how we have memories locked in our brain at all times? And all it takes is a subtle suggestion or a friend bringing it up. I mean, I found that with writing this book. It's a book about how and why to interview your parents. But, man, the amount of memories that are in our people. parents minds that it takes just a simple question to unlock that, it's really quite profound,

you know, what these treasure chests hold. You know, one thing I suggest in the book is ask your parents to send you old photos of their lives. And even just having a photo and sliding across the desk, tell me the story of this photograph will cause memories to come rushing back in. And And it's fun. You know, I mean, it can paint a more vivid reality for all of us. You know, I mean, as an example, like, one photo that I had my dad send me was of his grandfather, who was, he was born in England, and when, so this is my great-grandfather, when he was 14, he swam the English Channel, which is a gnarly swim.

And he made it in a newspaper. My dad had never told me this story. But, you know, I'm a surfer. I grew up as a professional surfer. I still am sponsored by Patagonia. But I had never had anyone else in my family who was an ocean person. And I always felt this kind of strange disconnection from like, why don't I have the ocean lineage? You know, some surfers have their entire families are like the royal Hawaiian family.

It goes back. And hearing that story from him was. it was helpful. It was like a dot on the constellation of family history that I now get to hold with me and tell to my future kids. You know, just those quick, fun stories. Like, you know that your great, great-grandfather swam the English channel for moving over here? Like, it's a fun thing to do and quite an easy experiment to practice for your parents.

I think it's something you're touching on here. I'm going to dive into everything in the interview. you know, process. This is great. I think you've got, you've been podcasting even longer than I have. I mean, you're what, 10, 12 years in the game now? I think I'm nine. Okay. I think you and I started like eight. Yeah, right at the same time. You introduced me to guys like Charles Eisenstein who you're right after Sacred Economics. Did I introduce you to Charles Eisenstein? Yeah. So I'm like, I just think like you're, you're accrediting me for my book list on, on Instagram, but I'm like, you've put so many great minds into my zeitgeist and into my wheelhouse that have now, you know, become friends with

Charles and we've had him at our events and things like that and he's just a brilliant human. But something you're touching on, I think is lost in our culture because there's a, you know, grow up in the U.S. and there's always, you know, not always the case, but a lot of times there can be pushed back against your parents at a certain point, the rebellious stage, that kind of thing. Almost all Americans are not living, you know, unless your minority aren't living three generations deep with your grandparents, right? And you may have a close relationship with your grandparents, but it's not the same as if you're all under the same roof, you know, from a different culture at a different place.

And there's, you know, when I grew up, there used to be just a tinge of it, like what it means to be a Kingsbury. Ben Greenfield sat in here and talked about, he's telling his boys what it means to be a greenfield, you know what I'm like, people still do that? Like, I just thought that was done, you know? I didn't think that people held on to any of those things. And, you know, when I was younger, I didn't really see the importance of that, like what it means to be a Kingsbury, what it means to be a whoever, a tierman.

But as I've gotten older, like, oh, there is something with that. It's not just a pride thing. It's a, you know, a character development of this is who we are. It's a code. It's a code. You know, and if you lose that code and this fundamental set of ethics as you set forth into your own adult life, it can leave you feeling very unmoored. You know, we start making unethical decisions based on money.

You start making unethical decisions based on just shortcuts. and often what builds character are exactly what you're talking about, like these codes, these set, this is what we do. This is how we handle relationships with other people because that's what my dad taught me. And there's, yeah, there's an element of honor in that that I think is important to teach in families. And we learn that through not lessons of, hey, be honorable, or courage. You learn that through story.

You learn that through a story that you tell your grandson about a moment of courage that you had. And that gives away to ethics and that gives away to decisions. It has moral consequences. Yeah. I mean, thinking about the ocean person for you guys is such a cool one. It took me fighting professionally for my dad to tell me about all of his experience in fighting. You know, he did a tough, was it tough enough? Something like that.

It was just the old tough man boxing. That used to travel around before it went on TV. I think on TV, King Kong Bundy was like the guy, just murking dudes with an iron chin. But they would basically just go town to town and say, like, whoever wants in, sign this waiver and go gloves on in a mouthpiece if you want, you know? And then go swinging for the fence. But he had done full contact karate.

He was a wrestler. And then his dad, my granddad, who passed away when I was 13, I didn't know much about him. I just remembered he was kind of an old jerk when he went. but he had prostate cancer. I remember watching his boobies grow because they used to just chop shit off then. Wow. You know, like testosterone is the problem.

They snip his balls. And I mean, he grew like D-sized titties in a matter of two years. Whoa. And it was just a, I was like, God, I'd say kill me right now. If that's what it's become, you know. But how he was a boxer and he was in the Air Force and he did a whole bunch of cool shit. And I was like, all right, this is, this is cool little lineage. And then now for Bear and for Wolf, my dad got his black belt.

right before me, he started jitzu just to understand what was happening on the mat. He was like, I know what wrestling is, I know what striking is, I can see, I can, I can appreciate the technique. But when it goes to the ground, I have no idea what's happening. I couldn't tell you who's winning or losing. I couldn't tell you what they're working towards. So he got into jiu-jitsu just to get in the shape and to learn that. And now bears in jiu-jitsu, Wolf's going to be in jit-sun a little bit. And I think from a character development standpoint, I don't care if they ever compete. I certainly don't want my kids to fight professionally.

and Bear's favorite sport right now is football. It's not jujitsu, but like there is an element of... But you played football too, right? I loved football. That was my main love. But I think what jiu-jitsu does for character development is kind of hard to match with any other martial art because of the baked in, you know, humility that it takes to go out and get tapped, you know, every practice. Somebody's going to beat you. Yeah, and it could be the smaller guy.

Exactly. Oftentimes it is. Like, the best kid in our gym is the coach's oldest. And he's small. You know, our coach is a small. guy. And so his oldest is a really tiny dude, and he's ferocious and a super technician. He can smoke anyone.

It doesn't matter how big they are. So that is, that's a case in point. The technique matters. This is why we show up. But going from white to black, you have to be tapped thousands of times. You have to learn the hard way often what it means to not tap as soon as you should. And then that might take you six weeks or six months to figure that lesson out while you recover.

I have that solar injury. So many things there that you don't really get anywhere else. And also things in football, playing on a team, learning how to channel your aggression, because it is an aggressive sport and use that in the right way. I think those are all really cool things too. But just thinking back to like, Bear's going to have three, he'll be the third generation of Black Belt, firstborn, male. And, you know, that fighting lineage goes back even further.

I would have loved to talk to Nana and just learn about, you know, what her parents were like. and granddad's parents, that kind of thing. But my dad still holds all those memories of his grandparents. And he's coming to town. He gets in today. Okay. So I am so stoked. Just to just, you may not want to podcast at all, but I want to get answered these.

I want to have these questions with him. I think it'll be just an awesome way for he and I to connect and for Bear to listen in and see what life was like for him. Yeah. I, uh, both my parents are, are still around. And I also have a stepdad who I'm very close to who, who helped raise me. So I'm lucky that. that none of them have died, but one thing that has happened since the book has come out is, I've heard stories from people who have said one of the biggest forms of grief that I felt

after my own parents died was that at the funeral, people would come up and say, oh, I knew your dad. Like, you know, your dad used to be a boxer. You know that? I boxed them. And people will think, I never knew my dad was a boxer. I never took the time to ask that question about this early point in his life, because often we only know about our parents' lives from the moment we're born until now, but we don't

ask about the early points of their life, and that not knowing, that ambiguity can result in a much harder period of grief, which I did not expect. When you write a book, it's really just the start. of a conversation. It's not the end. It's like, hey, here are some ideas I have. This is my own story, my own experience, my own hardships with my parents. But one thing it's been really fun since it's come out and having a chance to go on podcast is that story continues, you know, and people will talk about their own experiences. And oftentimes it isn't a formal interview, right? It's just using the book as a almost like an excuse to ask your parents, these random

to mass questions that give way to stories. I had a, it was really a last minute decision in the book, but I titled every chapter as a question that you can kind of use and, hey, what is, what's your most embarrassing memory? What's your most treasured memory? What's the best trip you ever took? And sometimes it can just take one question to result in a 45 minute conversation. Right. And there are other products out there that it's, you know, where, hey, have your parents fill out this book of memories, I think.

But one thing that you know as a podcaster is often it's the follow-up question that really helps draw out the valuable stories of your parents. It's not just that one question. It's showing that you're paying attention. Something as simple as, well, what did that feel like for you? Tell me more about this experience that can give way to this very rich and vast tap. of a human life. And I think there is something, too, as you know, from doing podcasts on online versus face-to-face is just being in the same vicinity as them.

Like when you ask that question, there's a certain nuance to the way that it's asked that's tugging them in the direction that you're hoping to go, right? And the heart math, you know, with the heart math, all that information. It's a big difference between why did you do that and why did you do that? It can be as simple as a tonal shift. Yeah, and they're not going to get that from a book. So like they could think in their mind, you know, with the way that's written, I don't want to go too far into this. Now I've spoken too much on this one thing.

I have a hundred other questions to answer. Whereas like if it's a podcast or a conversation, you get easily spent 45 minutes on one thing and not even realize it's been 45 minutes just answering that one thing because it led to all these other pieces. And then like, oh, hey, I got another question here. You know, it's like, that's such a cool. I love that. I absolutely love that. It makes me more excited now having the old band here because the timing of it. So I was like, this is so cool.

We're going to podcast on this. and I've loved listening to your book. Once you told me it was an audible, I've been flying through it. I think I only have a couple of other chapters here, but it's so good. One thing I wanted to ask you, and this pertains to me, because I have loved rabbit hole in conspiracies, you know, and I loved your parents' documentary, Thrive. I thought the second one, I would have changed some things about the second one. You know what I'm saying?

Me too. But the first one, I was like, this is awesome, man. It's like David Eich in his prime. I'm not, I couldn't tell you if there's reptilians or not, but I don't, I don't get caught up, like something I've had to learn with rabbit holeing dark shit is to really remember the serenity prayer. Yeah. Like what is within my control to focus on and let me just double down right there rather than exhaust myself thinking about all these fucking potentials and shit like that. And can I hold that potential as reality and still not crack inside? You know, like,

what does that do for me? What do I need to do in response to that personally to be, to be different in myself, you know, and what do I convey as a father to my kids in a way? You know, and, One thing that I wanted to dive into this with you because the only other person I've met that is, you know, really successful like yourself and just an awesome person is Cherveen. And he started, um, Jafferiah, he started symbiotica supplements. His older, or his older cousin is David Avocado Wolf. And so Wolf gave him one of David Ike's books when he was like 12 years old and he read this. And he said, he just couldn't get enough.

He just started flying through David Ix material. And he said, it really fucked him up. And his father pulled him aside, you know, when he was 18, he's like, who do you want to be now. Like sure you know all this shit about the world, but who do you want to be in response to that? And like that pulled him out. It pulled him out of the stupor of how dark shit is and it actually gave him a drive and a purpose again. And he's one of the, he is like one of the most genuine laughs. So you know, you sit with somebody and you hear them laugh was like, oh, this guy's he's like my fucking brother sitting next to me laughing right now. So like knowing that and then also

knowing what you talk about in your book because you grew up with this. Like it's different than being handed a David Ike book when like you're blind. family member is making like one of the biggest documentaries in conspiracy history, right? I would talk about that because I've really been careful in framing any of my belief system to our kids, you know, and because I don't want them to just throw away the baby with the bathwater when it comes to a text from something they'd get in public school. They're not, they're not public school. But, you know, a regular text people would define as like truth. It's like, yes, and, you know, there may be other ways of looking at this, right? And so I'd leave it to them to discover

And we constantly say, like, don't take my belief in anything as the wholesale truth. Learn about that. Learn about the other side of the argument and decide for yourself, right? Well, I really, first of all, just appreciate the way you're framing up that question. And one thing that I just want to underscore there is how much tone matters when working with ideas. what you're talking about right here like yeah i'm i'm down to go into those rabbit holes with you but we better keep a smile on our faces otherwise we're going to lose friendships um and i personally value tone i value humor i value curiosity more than i value like do we agree on the exact

same facts of how this historical event went down and i mean that's one reason like i really like you you know like you're you and i are like buddy because we just have that mindset of, this is fucking fun. Let's laugh a lot. Let's have a good time. And can we continue to talk about ideas and discuss and disagree while maintaining that tone? Hell yeah. Let's keep doing it.

The thing that can so often get lost, and I think it's really, you know, it's the result of modern social media is like this idea that if we disagree on something, we can no longer hang out. Like, and we can, we can no longer be friends because I identify with this belief so deeply that you are, you're threatening my very identity when you question this belief of mine. And that wasn't always a thing, right? You know, in the 1960s, it was really celebrated to be a cross-party politician, you know, if you're a Republican, you're talking to the Democrats, if you're Democrat, you're talking to the Republicans, that's all gone away now. And it doesn't matter if you're far right or far left, it's like, in some way it's become celebrated to belittle the other side, to not talk to the other side and not have a nuanced approach of

exactly what you're saying, which is yes and, yes, I agree with that part. I don't agree with this part. And we can still have a conversation around it. All right, guys, quick break to tell you about my brand new community that is launching this year, the kingdom within. This has been many years in the making. I've had a lot of iterations of the things that I've learned about and wanted to teach through serving fit for service for six or seven years, coaching one-on-one clients, literally thousands of people that have come through my coaching and been shaped by me and who have shaped me. So what is it about? It's about the body. The body is a doorway. It opens up all systems. The body is the temple. It's about the mind as a

system. How do we categorically learn how to use the mind so it can sit in the passenger seat, not in the driver's seat? And then how do we connect to ourselves, right? How do we connect to each other? How do we connect to our parents? How do we connect to nature? How do we connect to God in a safe way? All of these things are critically important, but it starts with the body and then we lead in with the mind and then we dive into connection. And the community is a field. It is a container actively that supports this. Everybody who joins this community is going to be thinking along the same lines. You will come there for your own reasons, but everybody is coming with a willingness to grow and a willingness to learn. And with that, you have a container that leads

for potential transformation. At the very least, the knowledge is going to be palpable. And so I'll be teaching once a month on their webinars on some of the most important, potent things that I think working from body to mind to connection and beyond. And of course, every other two weeks, there will be a Q&A that will go, which will just answer each. every one of your questions. A huge resource list of every book that I've ever read, the why behind it and where I think you should start because a lot of times people get overwhelmed.

You come to one of my classes. You get recommended two different books on sleep, two different books on health, whatever the thing is. Where do you start? Well, that's an important piece that only you can answer, but I can help you with that. And through a little Q&A and active back and forth,

you will have all the help necessary to launch yourself into the best direction you've ever been, from a health standpoint, from a mental standpoint, and from a life standpoint. because life is about connection. It's about relationship and how I relate to myself as well as others. It's the name of the game. All right.

Please join us at the kingdom within. All you got to do is go to kingsboo.com and you can sign up right there. And I look forward to seeing you guys. You want to learn more. We'll link to it at the top page of the show notes. And now back to the podcast. Just to give people a little bit of a backstory. Yes, give some reference here.

On me, a bit of a reference. And I hope also as I tell this story that people can kind of, whether or not you agree or disagree with like where I've landed on some of these issues. I mean, this is, it's a metaphor for parent-child relationships everywhere. Like, parent-child estrangement is at an epidemic high. It is easier than ever to ghost your parents to fall out of contact with these incredibly important relationships. And many times that is the result of disagreeing about political issues.

I haven't talked to my mom in six years because we, disagreed about politics. And if we can forecast forward to our own deathbed and think, you know, was the way I interacted with my brothers, my sisters, my mom, my dad, my kids, like, was that a time for peace or is that a time for justice? And that's something that I come back to often is very often we're going to disagree with the people in our family. And to move into these conversations asking, is this a time that I need to be fucking

write about everything and we're going to end Thanksgiving screaming at each other. Like, is that worth it? When I think about my, the bending arc of my life, is that what I want to think? I fucking stuck it to him with a chemtrails thing. Like, duh. You know, or is it going to be a time that I think, you know, I was able to hold and maintain warm, loving relationships with my family despite disagreements? I mean, I would go with the latter, and that's something that I want to be able to look back on my life and say that, yeah, I disagree with my parents about a lot of things, and we can still sit down and cut turkey together. And I think that the skill of podcasting, this skill that you and I have developed, it's the skill of curiosity. It's the skill of

asking questions. And so few of us are taught that skill at a young age because we are taught that being smart means having all the answers, not having the best questions. It means, you know, you would never say, I don't know. I don't know what that means. You could be right here. You know, the smartest guy in the room is always the one with the best answer, not the best question. And I, if there's one thing I can do with this book, you know, whether or not anyone listening agrees or disagrees with me on, you know, where I've fallen on various, you know, conspiracy beliefs, I hope that they can take that away first. It's, it doesn't matter where you fall on issues to be able to ask the people in our lives better questions is a fucking superpower and it gives way to better

relationships because all any of us want is to feel seen. Now, the book, you know, it really, it started as a how to because I interviewed my dad, who's this charismatic old, you know, filmmaker. He lives in Santa Cruz. He's a T. He was, you know, a magician growing up, paid his way through high school doing magic shows, you know, traveled around the world on a shoestring budget, just like making docs, you know. He made a doc number of years ago about the cultural significance of bells around the world. Like very much taught me that the world is big and you can find a vocation that teaches you about the world. And he should go do that. So I had him on my podcast and, you know, you would have thought that I had very famous person on the podcast

given the tsunami of emails I got after that, people being like, dude, I want to interview my parents. How do I do this? So that was the first signal boost that I got to write this book. I was like, oh, it seems like something that more people want to do, but don't really know how. So the first draft that I wrote of this book was quite glib. It was quite like, this is how you do it.

This is how you don't do it. It wasn't me being vulnerable and telling my story. And I was very, very lucky that, you know, I have a number of friends that are really strong writers. Our mutual friend, Chris Ryan, is one of them. And he was one of the guys I sent an early draft to. And he's like, this is with love, not it. Like, you need to be more honest about the hardship with your parents. Otherwise, people are not going to trust you.

So that was ultimately the story that I ended up writing. And through it, there's laced in how to techniques of how to interview your parents. But really it's a story of having a really close relationship with my mom and my stepdad who made Thrive, losing that relationship due to differences in beliefs around a number of conspiracies, feeling that pain really deeply, moving out, kind of just being very distant for a number of years, and then using the technique of interviewing them to kind of muster the courage myself to sit across from them and say, You know, we maybe don't agree about the validity of free energy, but I want to know what your life was like before I was around. That's still a worthy pursuit for me.

To give a bit more color on what my childhood was like, my mom lived in Santa Cruz, California. She started a homeless teen center when I was really young. You know, the ethic of helping out of being part in service and part of your community was drummed into me from a very early age. parents got divorced when I was six. When I was 11, she met a really wonderful guy named Foster Gamble, who was the and is the great grandson of James Gamble, of Procter & Gamble. So he was born into incredible wealth. Old money. Old money. Never had to get a real job and dedicated his entire life to being a conspiracy analyst. And just also, you know, a really wonderful guy. Like I say, that early in the book and burn a good deal of calories in early chapters to say that, you know,

I was really athletic from a young age. I wanted to be a pro surfer. He was the guy that mentored me. He was the strong male figure in my life that taught me about mindset, energy control, training, having a plan to go out in surf contests. He was helping to sculpt me in a very healthy way that I needed at that time. And even today, the thing that we connect on most is athletics. He was a D1 hockey player, played tennis at a high level. So I just looked up to him tremendously. And pretty early, and when I was 12, 13, this idea that he had been very involved with, which is the idea of free energy, the idea that there are perpetual motion machines around the world that can power cities became very attractive to him. And he had the money to really go after that.

David Ike would come over to our house when I was a teenager. Like, name the big people today. Like, I was early to that movement. I was, you know, a 13-year-old kid going around on trips to New Mexico to vet some guy's free energy device. And it was a way that I connected with my parents. Like, I felt incredibly cool. And I learned about a lot of very legitimate corruption within the government, within corporations, that I still believe to this day. one thing I'll say that I really loved about Thrive because you remember asking you about that

afterwards and you're like, I just said the free energy thing is total bullshit. And I was like, yeah, I figured that was the case because I, you know, of course, like, all right, yeah, the guy developed a hydrogen car, uh, gets killed in the parking lot. They poisoned me. You know, that's the last phone call to his brother. There's scenes like that where you're like, of course, if you had a trillion dollar industry, you wouldn't want this stuff to surface. Uh, but besides that, these are the other things we know are true, right? So when it comes to modern education, modern medicine, you know, Rockefellers as the oligarchs, all of these things that they detailed the financial system so well in that movie, I was like, damn, this is awesome,

it's all in one place. You know, books on books on books, each uncovering one piece of that, right? Like the creature at Jekyll Island, you know, like it was just all in there. I was like, I was impressed with that piece, but keep going. Yeah, so again, I mean, there's so many issues that they take on in those documentaries. it would be impossible to write a book detailing my own beliefs or validity about every single one. And that's, again, it's really not the point of the book. The point is how to interview your parents.

But free energy was the one that I saw more and more my parents surrounding themselves with people that really seemed like they just wanted their money. And I saw as a teenager getting older a level of grifters surrounding them. and saying, hey, I have this free energy device. If you invest in it, all, you know, it will change the world. We'll bring it out in a huge way. And, you know, it really, you know, culminated by my stepdad getting scammed out of a lot of his money by, you know,

ex-cons in Zimbabwe, who claimed to have these free energy devices. And it was incredibly hard for me to just be now in my 20s, kind of pulling my hair out. Like, how do you not see this? that this is bullshit. Like a guy in Zimbabwe is going to tell you he has a free energy device, and you're just going to give him a ton of money because it speaks to your sense of identity. It makes you feel like, oh, well, this has to be real.

And, you know, I don't think free energy is real, but it more is like the place I want to keep getting back to is just like the pain that I felt with my parents. And that happened to be our issue. And the distance that it created between us as I then moved out and 90% of the total time most of us will spend with our parents is going to be between the ages of 1 to 18. So after 18, you get 10% left with your parents on average. And I had moved out with just all these stories of them that I had really not dealt with. And that ended up

being the primary arc of the book, is how can I take a step closer to them? and start asking them questions about their lives and not ultimately die with a story of, well, yeah, my parents are fucking conspiracy theorist. Like, it's like, no, that's not their story. Like that's, we disagree about some of this stuff. But, you know, my stepdad's story is one of being incredibly noble, wanting to help the world, being a badass athlete who was a great husband to my mom and mentored me tremendously in my own sports and I'll forever be grateful for him.

And I don't think I could have said that before I wrote this book. I think that just the level of resentment that I held was too great. And I think that's the power and that's the magic of writing books and of reading books is it can really move us emotionally to a new place. Yeah, that's beautifully stated. Something I think that is super resonant for me. me as a child and a father is kind of like this idea that, you know, your parents always see you as a kid, right? Even I'm 43 years old. I'm still my mom's little boy kind of feeling, right? And so

there can be a lack of receptivity from your children. And so I've constantly talked about that with my wife is like, we must allow our kids to teach us shit. We must keep an open mind and an open ear to all the new discoveries they're going to make and not just throw it out because we did it differently. And that happens in regenerative agriculture. Some kid wants to, you know, starts learning about permaculture and regenerative agriculture. And the dad's like, no, we till the fucking thing and we throw the GMO corn on it and we spray it down. And that's how it goes. Right.

It happens in industries like that that are passed down family to family. But I think it's universal in that it can be really disheartening when you can see the truth plainly. At least on something like that. Like, let's say free energy could have run. Egypt. Who knows? Maybe, maybe Tartaria did exist. And that's how they powered blimps through these little antennae on the top of, you know, all the towers they've taken down with bells and the right harmonics. Who knows? Right. But it's not around now, right? And Tesla could have been right on top of it. And that's why you get killed. Who knows? But it's not around now. You know, it's like to see,

to be able to see the truth in that you're getting scammed must have been incredibly challenging to see that and be like, dude, like trying to just shake them. Like, wake up, please, you're getting scammed again. scammed. Like, that would be, I could see that being, just driving a fucking wedge. I mean, you want to knock people out. Yeah. I mean, like, as a child, like, this is, and it's, it's not just with this one issue, but I mean, scams with the elderly are, it's, it is a cautionary tale that a lot

of people have been through and, and should be very wary of in the internet age. There's a, there's a really bad, uh, um, action flick on Netflix called The Beekeeper with Jason Statham. And the whole premise is built off of this. His parents getting scammed. This lovely elderly lady he lives with gets scammed and takes her own life. And that sets him off. Statham goes off. Yeah. The entire breath. Yeah. But it's, you know, the shit works. I can say that when you change that, that paradigm of I need to be right here and you get curious and learn how to just come to a conversation with a few

questions. I mean, I recommend that. I mean, for people who just barely are able to make it to Thanksgiving and don't think an interview is fully in order, although I do think there's incredible value from recording it, next car ride you have with your kid or with your parent, just have a couple questions ready. Particularly for males, eye contact can feel very challenging for two males. And there's a reason why we always open up to each other in car rides. So if you're looking ahead, it's, you ever like been in a car ride with your buddy and you're like, fuck, I think I'm going to get a divorce.

I haven't told anyone. And you're like, oh my God, it takes driving around to open up to each other. So, you know, as much as you can set up those various environments for good conversations to happen. I wonder if Catholics knew that with like the shaded screen. You totally. Yeah, exactly. We can't just let it look at straight and way.

I don't know if anyone would confess to each other looking directly. I killed the guy. I killed the guy. Cheating on my wife for 10 years and I've sinned. Yeah. So yeah, I mean, it's been very cool to also be doing this book tour where I've been traveling around the country, going to different Patagonia stores. They've been my longtime surf sponsor, and it's awesome that they're just like,

sweet. You wrote a book that has very little to do with surf. thing. Let's do some events. And it's, yeah, it's, it's great to hear people, uh, tell their own stories at this event because, man, the, it, it really is an epidemic and it's easier than ever to just fall out of contact with family members, um, especially in the U.S. culture, you know, in places like Mexico and places like China, it's a much more central part of the human experience is what it means to have a family.

and what it means to be a Kingsbury. So, you know, this book, it's not going to solve all your problems, but I do think that it can be a small wedge to take that step forward. And you might be surprised by what you find. Yeah, I think, and the best thing, Godsey calls these death cookies in any act, right, if you feel the calling to do it and it makes you feel nervous, the greater to the degree that it makes you feel nervous where you're like, oh, fuck, I don't know, but I know I need to,

but oh man I don't want to. Yeah. I know I need to, but I don't want to. Like that feeling, the greater the wellspring of that feeling, the bigger the death cookie. But like at least once a year you got to eat a death cookie. And like that's the thing that keeps you alive. That's the thing that makes life worth living. It's the ability to say yes to this challenging thing that sparked your interest.

All right, fuck it. I'm going to do a vision quest. Or I'm going to do a darkness retreat. Or I'm going to have, you know, the Terrence McKenna heroic dose, whatever that looks like, you know. I'm going to have the hard conversation with my parent. I think that's a really. cool thing, especially considering, you know, what our culture looks like in the disintegration of, you know, what it means to be a human, what it means to be a Kingsbury, what it means to be

the family lineage. I think that's such a rad piece. Yeah, what's the line, the treasure you seek is in the cave you fear? Mm, yes, yeah. Yeah, I, yeah, I have found that really any time in life that I'm able to, I mean, this was, this is what got me into big wave surfing early on, you know, growing up in Santa Cruz, the waves are really good there. And it started for me as a social pursuit. But I mean, I'm interested to hear your perspective on this because it's an idea that I've been chewing on more and more. You know, an hour north of where I grew up is a spot called Mavericks that's really

renowned as one of the premier big waves in the world. You know, it breaks a half mile offshore, the water's cold, there's great white sharks, and it's a 60-foot wave that breaks in basically the same spot every time. So if you want to sack up and go on one of these waves, it's fucking all yours. And it's a, you know, I had a mentor named Tyler Fox who really taught me how to surf big waves. We started training together was the first time that I got into physical fitness. It was in service of big wave surfing. Like I was not an exercise.

I would, you know, I was skating. I was surfing. But that's what fortified me to actually learn how to hold my breath for a long time. Learn visualization. They say you don't train to surf big waves, you train to wipe out on big waves, which I did. You know, being a 19 year old kid, 20 year old kid saying, okay, I want to go surf this wave that has killed people and see what I'm made of. I look back at that now and think, like, wow, who would I be if I didn't do that?

And I think that for men in particular, you know, some women too, but by and large, like that male right of passage and finding what that right of passage is. for you. It's just, it's been an incredibly fortifying experience for me. And now I work in advertising. I'm talking to founders and trying to convince them to do crazy stunts and campaigns all the time. And often on those calls, you know, they'll be a founder with a big ego and they'll try and be like, no, they'll push back. And like the level of calmness that I feel in those situations that typically freak people out, I think is largely due to just like you, like you've been in way heavy. situations and it almost creates this watermark for everything else in your life. And it's an idea

that I think it's very necessary. Like the interviewing your parents thing, like finding that code, like what have been the rights of passage in your life that allow you to move through the day to day with a bit more ease? And for me, it has been big wave surfing, which is probably why the next book is going to be about that. That's great. I don't know. I think, I thought about this a lot. And even through Chris Ryan's work, who was another great guy you introduced me to, you know, the right of pat. And here he's been on Rogans talking about this long time before I got to meet him. And it was just super resonant. A lot of the things he was talking about in terms of rites of passage and just tribal life in general, the differences between that and what we have now.

And I got into Maladoma, Patrice Soame's work. And he's, you know, authored a ton of cool stuff. I think of water and spirit was my favorite from him. But he said, it's not a real right of passage unless death is on the line. And I was like, damn, dude. Like, It's one thing I'm like, okay, yeah, big wave. That counts. Like, death was on the line. You know, probably not going to die in the cage, but it felt like death was on the line. It definitely can.

It definitely can. I think that you at least need to feel like death is on the line. That's important. And then just thinking about that for my son, you know, it's like timing these conversations with Tosh and bears like, he's 10 now, but he's five when we're having these conversations. I'm like, they say death needs to be on the line. So here, I want to know about this because last week, I'm hanging out with Shane Heath from, from, Shane has a three-year-old now, who's a total little daredevil. And Shane and I, you know, were buddies and were like going and taking his son, his name's Lion, did Bear Wolf and the Lion.

You guys, you guys, you could be friends. We got to the park, you know. We got a hawk, too, in the mix down. Taking to the park, like, definitely got mistaken for the gay couple, like, taking their son to the park. And this kid's a little daredevil on a bike, you know, and there's a little bike jump zone. and it was one of the first times that I felt like protective, you know, the feeling like, no, no, no, no, don't do it, don't do it. And the kid's just fearless, like, joan off these little jumps. And I was like, holy shit, this is the first time that I have felt like the cautionary adult and not been on the other side of like, back off mom, I got this.

Because I was the kid skating before even surfing big waves. I was the kid that would ollie off roofs into half pipes and just do, you know, I did a fucking roost. in Mexico when I was like 17. Like it's dumb as shit. But like, what is it like for you as a dad to hold that like the paternal instinct and also know that they need to go after it? Like what have you had any experiences like this? There's a couple of things there.

Because, well, one, first let me just say, uh, you were called to that, right? Shane's son. Nobody told Shane like, hey, dude, you got to go hit this. Go rip it. Like he just, that's what he did. Right. And I think there are some of us that have an inborn desire to push the limit. That's not for every guy.

You know, like not every male boy has it in them to want for that to be their test. It might be a different kind of test. It might be a darkness retreat or Vapasana. For my dad, it was magic. You know, if my dad was a very shy kid. And when he was 11, his mom brought him home this big box of magic tricks that he bought, that she got an auction. and he learned how to do magic tricks and start doing these shows in front of people.

And he ended up winning student body president by doing a magic show at his speech. He had a dove fly out of his freaking his coat. But it doesn't necessarily need to be a physical thing. But for him, that changed his personality and fortified him by going up in front of crowds and becoming a performer. To your point on that, because performance is, Like for a lot of people, I've always had the gift of gab. You got A's in any speech class I ever took. It came naturally, you know, and that it could memorize shit and regurgitated or whatever.

So it wasn't a problem for me, and I'd laugh with other kids like you've seen them sweat on stage. All right, guys, quick break to tell you about lucy.com. Lucy offers 100% pure nicotine, as always tobacco-free. Lucy breakers are nicotine pouches with an extra surprise. Each pouch holds a capsule that can be broken up to release extra flavor and hydration. Set yourself up with a subscription and have Lucy delivered straight to your door. My favorite Lucy product is the bangers is what I like to call them, but the mint pouches. Throw that in. I like the 12 mig, but I started with four migs and worked my way up.

Don't be a campus hero and buy it off more than you can chew. It feels like you've been on the merry-go-round too long, if you know what I'm saying? So just work your way up slowly over time. Nicotine is fantastic. It switches the brain on like very few other things can. And I absolutely love it. Lucy is the only lasting pouch that gives you long-lasting flavor whenever you need it. Get 20% off your first order when you buy online with code KKP. And if you don't want to wait, just head to lucy.com slash stores to find Lucy near you and grab it today. And here comes the fine print. Lucy products are only for adults of legal age and every order is age verified.

Warning, this product contains nicotine. Nicotine is an addictive chemical. It's addictive because it's awesome. It is fantastic. You will love it, I promise. Lucy.com. KKP at checkout. My son asked me, we were watching something,

some kind of comedy, and he loves telling jokes and whatnot, and telling him like, all right, that one landed, all right, now you're beating a dead horse like family guy, which is like a clap you got that from your mom,

you know, and he'll stay on one thing for five minutes. That's so good. But, you know, I was telling him, like, people, you could do that for a living. You know, like, people do very well. If they're good and their masters of their craft,

But it is a craft, right? It's something you have to work towards and you have to refine. And then you have to go out and do it. And going out and doing it is the hardest part, right? Because now you're going to have either the joy of people you've moved or you're going to get their anger, you know, and you're going to get their booze. And I was like, nothing to this day makes me clam up inside the way seeing someone bomb on stage does as a comedian. I mean fucking nothing, dude.

If you're live at a show and the mid guy comes out and they suck. Like, I can't boo. I don't want to boo. I just feel like my heart fucking sinks, dude. You want to crawl into a cave and die. Yeah, I'm like, I'm like, oh, no, oh, no. Like, please be decent. No, don't bomb, you know.

And it's like, you just feel it in my soul. Just like, I'm there with the guy on stage. Just getting ruined right now. And so, like. Well, it's that saying man's greatest fear isn't death. It's public speaking. But comedy, like, and magic shows, like, you're performer, right? And so, like, that, you can nail it or not nail it.

and there's a lot of gray area to not nail it. But that was interesting, just in reverse of that, having my son asked me that question and knowing immediately, like this is the thing that would panic me the most at anything. But we had, you know, like Paul Check, I had asked, you know, because he's one of my mentors and, you know, medicine man in every way. You know, he's done tons of journeys and he's got kids. He's had the fortune of raising a kid who's a year older than me.

He was Paul Jr. when he was 18, he had him, and he messed up a ton there. has, you know, done a lot to repair that. And then he has two kids that are in between Bear and Woolsage, right? So there's an older guy. He said two kids. And I was like, what do you think about, you know, rights of passage and even plant medicine journeys and things like that for the kids? Like, where does that come into place?

And you said a couple things that really pointed out to me, the truth. One, that's for mom to determine because they're around the kids more than we are. They know when the boy is ready, better than we do, right? There's no ego attached to that, right? they know when the sun is ready and the sun will be ready for whatever that is. And he said, too, because we're not in a tribe, it has to come in layers. And so a layer might be, you know, playing football for several years. A layer might come from, you know, one big act like working away up to doing a big wave.

Whatever that thing is, you know, it's going to come. It's a multi-pronged approach. Right. It can't just be the, the, you facet and put your hand in the bullet dance with honey and all the things, right? It's got to be like, it's got to be a little different. and it's got to have the time to create change. You know, I don't think we live in a world because we're not tribal anymore,

there is no one marked journey we take as young men where we're like, everyone agrees. Oh, you did that? That's how you did at the ant thing or that's how you did, you know, during the fast? Like that doesn't exist. So it has to be a multi-pronged approach. And I'm always looking for different avenues.

You know, I love plant medicines, but that's why I was drawn to a Vision Quest and that's why I'm drawn to things like the darkness retreats because it's like, oh, there's so many avenues to get there. I never could meditate. You know, probably when we were hanging out, I was still using like Brain FM or some dorky binaural beats company, you know, and like, now I can meditate very well.

And I'm like, man, I think it just something in me changed. And at the same time, I found the right people to teach me, you know? Yeah, we have a- I couldn't force that on my son. Like, he couldn't sit still for fucking... That's a good point. It's a good way. It's a good reminder that you can't do it all at once because nothing ever happens all at once.

I did my first ultra this year. And before that, so it actually started with a friend of mine recommending this race on Catalina Island called the Otelo. And Otelow is kind of like an Iron Man, but they do it in really beautiful places around the world. So they do one on Catalina Island, they do one on Orchis Island, they do one in Whistler. It's spelled, I think it's O-T-I-L-O, and it's a run swim. So there's no biking involved, which is great because it makes it a lot more affordable for people. Oftentimes it's the bike that makes, you know, the Iron Man's just totally unfeasible for a lot of people. Because you've got to ship the bikes there.

It's, you know, so the Otelos are a really great step down from Iron Man, and you're doing it in these gorgeous locations. So I really for the first time in my life, I started training for. for this Otolo. For people who don't know, Catalina Island, it's this island off of L.A. that is still totally rural. Big mountainous peaks, gorgeous aqua blue water. I go spearfish out there often.

And I'd never done any endurance sports in my life. Growing up, it was always a surf session is usually two hours long. I'd never, just the concept of eating while exercising was totally full. You're going to fucking eat something while you're doing the thing. You have to refuel. That's how long it goes. Yeah. So I, this year was, I became really obsessed with endurance sports and training for this

Oatillo thing, doing ocean swims, doing long runs. And then I had Burning Man on the books. And some people don't know this, but shout out, there's an ultra burning man. It happens, I believe, on Tuesday morning. and it's a 40-mile race. You run the perimeter of Burning Man, I think, four times. Is it 40? Might be 35.

Long as fuck. You start like an hour and a half before dawn. So you get there, there's like 60 people that do it. Some people are in crazy costumes. Forest Gump showed up. There was a forest Gump costume. They have aid stations at various parts of the burn, a way out in deep playa and you get going um i did it with my buddy kevin uh hunting buddy of mine from

from montana who's also just a badass and we did it but but this the thing that i wanted to say about this to your point is there's this concept that i learned from the the otolow guys called hardening so they they uh a lot of the areas that they will do their races are in really cold water and one thing you know the reason hawaiians have tended to die while surfing mavericks You can't say it's the reason, but very likely is because the shock of getting into cold water when you're not exposed to it a lot. It's just so shocking to the system that you're more likely to drown. So the guys will say, you know, if I have a cold water race, I'll make sure to train in cold water because you really cannot just imagine what a shock to the system it is to try and do a long race in this cold stuff. It's like fighting at altitude in Denver, not training for it.

Totally. So, I mean, that idea of thinking about rights of passage for your kids as incremental and as these slow kind of training sessions of hardening was, that was kind of a word that I was like, oh, that's cool. Okay, I'm going out in the cold water right now. I'm doing my hardening training right now. And yeah, I mean, I did the race at Burning Man. And it was, it was so incredible. You know, you're running this gorgeous flat lake bed, you know, the robot heart. is out there with people still just like raging at 6 a.m. You know, they're like shuffling back to camp while you're still running at like 8 a.m. And, you know, it was something that I never kind of thought I might be interested in doing. And now there is an element, I think, of Vision Quest to Ultra and Endurance Sports that gave way to a very wide view of my life while I was doing to that and a kind of feeling of, of pain and ecstasy that felt oddly psychedelic, actually. Yeah. Yeah, I only did one ultra.

It was in Zion, Utah. Beautiful. It was stunning. But it poured rain the night before. It was when I was fighting and working at the, it's actually right after I retired. So Bear was the little guy. Tosh was going to do it, but she delivered.

And so she just pushed him around for a 5k or whatever. But it had rained so much the night before that they were going to cancel the race. And enough people like me who can't make it back out, you know, and basically had sacrificed my weekend pay, which was, you know, working at the strip club. This was where I made all my money. I was like, I got to stay. I got to do this.

And so they still allowed the race to go. Wait, were you a bouncer or were you a performer? Bouncer and bartender, occasionally I'd perform for the ladies if I wanted a little extra tips. Of course. You know, you still got the short shorts on, ladies and gentlemen. When the bar closes, then the next, then the final stage appearances made.

But that was great, you know? Like, that was, that put food on the table all through my fight career and after and allowed me to take stabs at things like podcasting and other things like that. But we're there and it rains so bad. And it's like clay. Like this land is clay. And it's like people are loose in their shoes while they're going. Yeah, everyone has platform shoes after that.

Yes. It was crazy. I mean, some of it was just like I'm on one of those ski rehab things where you slide back and forth. It felt like that. And I was the final guy to make it across the line in the allotted time. It was like nine hours and 45 minutes or something like that. But there was so many points, just like on a Vision Quest or something akin to that, where everything, I mean, you question everything.

Like on a walk to the cage, you're like, why the fuck did I do this? What did I sign up for this shit? Or I don't have to do this again if I don't want to. Like every thought. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay, I got this. All right. Now the gate closes.

Okay, let's go. Yeah, yeah. I think there's a whole book to be written on the morning of the big event when you're still in your sheets. And you don't want the day to have started. You're like, ugh, can't it be raining today? Like, can't they just get all the flurry of thoughts that you have in your bed before you take the first step to get up is like, I mean, you can write volumes on the self-doubt in that small moment when you're still in the comfort zone.

And it's just that window, right? It's a short window. I think when you're sitting on the land without food or water with multiple days or in an ultra race, like those thoughts come and go. And then it's just kind of keep pushing, right? Put one foot in front of the other. And it's a way to actively work through that by continuing. And maybe I got to walk a segment and eat a little bit, but you still continue.

You know, and so I feel like there's something that's gained through that that's really hard to reach in other areas of life. And while I respect Goggins for inspiring that and a lot of people, I also think like Goggins overdoes it and probably, you know, has inspired a lot of people to hurt themselves. Too much cowbell. Yeah. Like just, all right, cool. Let's talk about some other pieces here to well round. round us out holistically. But yeah, it's a unique thing where, like, you really can't only get it in that experience,

you know, in the experience of doing something where you put your body through that level of torture. And Burning Man must have been exceptional. Like, just being in Zion, like, that carried me, being able to look around and take deep breasts and be like, all right, I'm here. This is the only time I'm going to do this. Just finish. Just finished.

And, you know, Burning Man is such a cool spot. We had a great time at Burning Man a few years back. God, what's the homie's name? Simon Rex. There's still an iconic photo. I don't know if I've ever sent it to you of us on the art car. It was your, was your, who's our car? My brother's art car. My brother's art car.

Diplo's playing on it. You're in the photo. Simon Rex is standing on the, like right behind Diplow. And I'm standing above him on a railing giving him a head massage. And we're fucking all on acid for sure. It's Kingsbury. Diplo, Simon. Rex and me giving him a head massaged.

I'm like, I'm saving that one for the grandkids. I want my grandkids to ask me about that photo. That is great. And Tosh has a completely different memory of that because she took one key bump of ketamine and started hurling the whole time. And so she was, you know, trying not to, trying not to create moop matter out of place. And so she's puking into a Gatorade bottle. Oh, my God.

Try not to make sure anything spills is the fucking funniest thing ever. You know, she's like, I don't want people to see them. Like, it's okay, honey. It's all right. And I remember, I felt really. bad because I think it was like you and Aubrey and a bunch of guys where I was like dude we're all like diplo's playing on the art car let's go and you guys all came with your bikes and he left your bikes at a random corner and then didn't know which corner it was and for like

the next three days you couldn't find your bikes apparently I was like oh no you like went bikeless at Burning Man um you know to the Goggins uh you mentioned Goggins but uh my good friend Adam Skullnick worked with David Gagins on writing that his first book, Can't Hurt Me. And if you've ever listened to the audiobook of that, it's Adam Skulnick and Gagins talking about every chapter between each chapter. It's a really cool format for an audiobook. So it's kind of part audiobook, part podcast.

And Adam and I went through the same publisher. He was publishing his first novel, great book called American Tiger, when I was coming out with one last question before you go. And he said to me, right before I went into the studio to record the audiobook, he's like, you recorded kind of like podcast-level interviews with your parents and with all the people in the book. Beyond just my parents, you know, there's people like Charles Duhigg in the book who wrote the Power of Habits, super communicators.

You've got Chris Ryan talking about families in prehistory. And I had recorded podcasts with all these people. And he's like, you should have to do small snippets. of those podcasts between chapters. And I did, and it's some of people's favorite part of the book, is that it's me reading, but then it's also the podcast format. And I don't know of many other books that have done it besides Can't Hurt Me and one last question before you go.

And I think that it's, we're on to something. Like, I think that more people are gonna start blending mediums between audiobook and podcast. Because it works really well and it's dynamic. It kind of, it gets these other voices. in, in my case, you know, there's a character in the book named Rach the Reaper. She's a pediatric hospice nurse. And her role in the book is to just constantly provide perspective.

You know, what I've been saying, again, is like, because she's around death so much, she gets it, right? She is the person who can tell you exactly what it's like for kids that have shitty relationships with their parents when their parents are dying. And what it's like to be around. kids who have done some level of healing with their parents. She had the great line in the book. I asked why some people meet death with courage and why do others meet it with fear and denial? And she had the most profound line. People die the way they live. We have her voice in the book too. So she's

constantly providing this perspective. To me, as I'm being petulant and being like, I fuck my parents. I can't. I like, I'll like them. And she's like, well, Kyle. let's pull back and you might not necessarily have the same beliefs, but who do you want to be? Who do you want to be? And that was just, it was such a fun experience writing this book and something that I recommend for anyone who has an inkling to write a book, you know, who maybe thinks they can't do it. I just want to say like, you're in a cage, but the door is locked from the inside. Like you really can do this thing and there is a great metaphor between writing a book and doing an endurance race

because it really is a matter of putting your sneakers on one day at a time going out on that one hour race doing that one hour writing session and you know I worked a full-time job the whole time I was writing this book you know I work in advertising and this book got done one hour two hours a day hey, what are you going to do this weekend? Okay, I'm going to spend the Saturday writing this book. It was just all those little decisions that ultimately are very much the same as the decisions you make to become a great athlete. It's just one small thing after the consistency beats intensity. Yeah.

And right now, you know, in the world, I think so many people do not meet their potential, not because they don't have a talent, but because there's this ocean of distraction. between them and that great book that they want to write. So a huge amount of this process for me was learning to say no to things that did not serve the purpose of this book. And I would wake up. I would do an hour of swinging kettlebells around or going on a run. That would energize me, usually get me into a good mood for the day, like the feeling of like, all right, I can do this.

I would sit down at the computer. pretty often I would spend the first 10 or 15 minutes reading a piece of writing that I really liked from a strong writer. Sometimes even in a notebook I would write down a page that I had been reading just to get their cadence and their kind of rhythm of how they do it. And then boom, I set a timer. I'm in for an hour. And I'm going for quantity, not quality. I heard a great line from a friend of mine last night. went out to dinner and she said, she's a writer also. She said, God's job is the quality. My job is

the quantity. Like, God will come in with those strikes of inspiration that make this beautiful, and the rewrites will get it there. But ultimately, my job is to try and get a certain number of words on page. And I can tell you, man, I mean, I did not grow up a writer. I didn't really even grow up a reader. And it was really just in the last few years that I fell in love with books, you have and learned to practice this skill to the point that now I can call myself a professional. You can do it. Anyone can do it. Anyone can do it.

It just, it's one day at a time and it's incremental steps of hardening. I would say just to piggyback on that, because I love that you had Do Higg in the book, and that's another guy you turned me on to. I don't think I've ever met him personally or been connected, but like you turn me on to his work. Santa Cruz guy. No shit. There's so many Santa Cruz guys. Bruce James, Fatiman.

And then we brought up Fatima and I heard him in 2014 on, on Tim Ferriss's podcast. Is that crazy? And I'm, and I'm, I'm, I'm microdosing with my old man building a tough shed. I didn't even tell him. You're like, six hours in. I was like, you know, I took some mushrooms, right? And he's like, huh? Or actually, it was LSD.

I was like, oh, on a little microsat acid. He just starts busting out laughing. And I was like, look at me go, though. Like, I'm not like a handy guy. Yeah. And I'm just, you know, one-handed screwing shit in, upside down, like, doing all this. It was like, it gave me laser-like precision. Have you had Fatima on your podcast?

We were going to, and unfortunately, I think his wife passed away. You should do that. He just came out with a new book called Microdosing. Oh, wait. And so did he ever do the book before that was on like multiple personality? Yeah, he did that. Our symphony of cells. Okay.

Yeah, yeah. So he came out about, he came, he did that one and then he just did a new one on microdosing. I would love that. Yeah, yeah. I'll give you his contact. So many, you've introduced me to so many awesome guys. Another thing that's really helped me too. Like Chris Ryan kind of laid out two really important quotes.

that I, and I'll butcher these, but the paraphrasing them. One was he didn't get into podcasting for anything other than like his own selfish desire to be able to meet people and have these conversations with them and then share that with the world. That was secondary.

Sharing it with the world of the secondary, but he got to become friends with all these great people and people he would want to know. And I was like, that is genius because that's exactly what the juice is in podcasting is getting to meet awesome fucking people that have great minds and see the world you know in different ways that help expand us and grow us you know so i've loved that he also said

which is inspirational for writing and you can you can testify or tell me how this lands with your work but he said you don't write a book about the thing you know about you write a book about the thing you want to learn about true and i was like man that that right there that just squashed every idea i had about writing and like open up a whole you know an infinite wellspring of doors to potentially dive into Well, one thing I want to compliment you on is just having seen your own journey with books and your enthusiasm with books that you share on Instagram that are so fucking unlikely. Like, come on. Like, if I'm thinking of the book that Kyle Kingsbury is going to share on Instagram, it's going to be can't hurt me. It's going to be, you know, a jaco book.

it's going to be how to fucking, you know, crush skulls. Because that's the way people think of like, oh, Kyle, he's the UFC guy. Like he's going to, you know, so there's an expectation of who you're going to be. And I, you, you just constantly surprise me with your curiosity and willingness to venture into ideas that are so unlikely. You know, the fictions that you're really into. I'm like, fuck, he's into that. Like, my girlfriend's into that book. She told me it was really good.

And, like, that is an example of, you know, not just writing a book about the thing that you want to learn about, but sharing the knowledge that you want to learn about. And it's a very seductive trap, I think, to, you know, become the brand that people expect you to become. And it's the mask that eats the face. It seems like a total prison. It's a prison, right? And then you feel that you don't have permission to talk about other things. I mean, my first book, if it was expected, it would have been the big wave surfing book. But for me, it was like, no, actually the thing that's keeping me up at night is my relationship with my parents.

And this idea that I'm going to look back on my life and not have really known them in the way that I want to. And it's the thing that's keeping you up at night, the thing that gives you that genuine childlike curiosity that is a compass. however unexpected it is. And people will follow you because ultimately I don't think people are following, you know, the facts that you're delivering. They're following the energy that you are communicating, that kind of resonance with your excitement. And I mean, that's just, it's something that I have continued to come back to again and again. And it's, you know, the question is, you know, do you want to be the thing or do you want to do the thing?

you know and you should always try and be going with with the um the ladder you know i just want to do the thing i enjoy it so much and i'm going to share it yeah i mean that that too is is that what creates the becoming or the beingness of it right is the actual the living it the lived experience that's the embodiment of it a lot of talking heads online that have researched something well and can speak to it incredibly well but don't necessarily have a wealth of experience in the thing they're talking about so what's what's a book that you've read this year year that has really surprised you or you felt like, oh, wow, that one knocked me on my ass and I did not think it was going to. I mean, there's a, there's a handful. I think this was the year

that I got into all the smut books. And just to frame that, you know, like sex scenes with Fe creatures is kind of what that whole, you know, lineage and just style of books are. But seeing my wife take off just, I mean, we have, you looking at my library right now, like she has her own. That's just all this genre. And I remember when she got into him, maybe six months had gone by. And I was just like, I wish I had something that grabbed me that well. You know, like the same way we were engaged in Game of Thrones, but even more so, even more than TV.

And books are just that much more. And she started looking into the male side of things. And that's what got me into Brandon Sanderson because he was number one in military fantasy. Just so good. No sex, but obviously like hands down, one of the most brilliant writers. that it's ever lived and then we got into red rising and i've loved that he's supposed to have um book seven was supposed to come out this last year and it didn't so i'm hoping it's right around the corner but even that is like you should interview that guy he's a young guy yeah he's out uh la right

out of la yeah his books are there's so many twists and turns like i and i love dune i love sci-fi red rising is just like darrow holy shit yeah it is so like light you on fucking fire like literally light your soul on fire shit. And as many twists and turns as like an M-night Shyamalan movie in his heyday. Not bad turns, but like, what the fuck? Yeah. And so much wisdom around you, classism, class

warfare. Yeah. So many parallels to what we've got going on. And so I've loved those. The misborn trilogy I got into, which was kind of Sanderson's smaller stuff. And I'm my Tasha's reading that now. So I'm actually going back through it. But what surprised me was how much I loved

Sarah J. Moss's work in the smut section. And I told my wife, I was like, I feel like you spoiled me because I get into a quarter of thorns and roses, you know, and all of her other books, including the Crescent. She has got a few that are in that 1,300 page range in Crescent City. But she starts to weave them together. And you're just like, I'm so fucking happy. This is what I finished with. And she knew which order to give me the books.

But anything else I've touched in that genre just pales in comparison. It really does. Yeah. You know, so we're going back through Miss Born right now, and I turned Godsy on to that, and he was just floored by it. So I've loved all those books. Nonfiction, I guess you could say, you know, I felt a deeper desire in part because of my mother-in-law is super fundamentalist Christian, and there's many things that I've

disagreed with fundamentally. I fundamentally disagree with your fundamentalism. The facts and how things were. but I've always appreciated teachers from the East. And so, you know, it just popped in my head. I was like, I wonder if there's any, like, any teacher from the East that is written about Christ. And so I found the second coming of Christ from Paramahansa Yogananda. And I was like, all right, this is it.

So I've been reading that. And I've been reading it slowly. I've been reading it slowly. I want to chew on that slowly. That way I can digest it. Digested and not fly through it, you know. So I probably started that first one. It's two big, thick books.

And I maybe halfway through the first book, eight months down the, the road. But I've loved that. It has refrained so many things that have allowed me to reach common ground, even without them seeing it that way. Right. You know, like Christians are the only people if I did a post on that that had a problem with my post. You know, like, nobody else said it was just comical because I was like, well, that's the very thing that turns people off from religion. Yeah. That's my way or the highway, right? And that there's no room for any other answers or nuance to that conversation. And so much to what you've talked about with having conversations with your parents or the left and the right.

And this divide that we see in the world, to me, that was always the case with religion. You know, that's why so many wars have been fought and over it. But, um, Yoganana's work for me has really connected the dots in a lot of ways that I, that I think are awesome. Yeah. And, um,

they've helped me to at least build that bridge to people and the way they think, uh, whether that bridge is reciprocated from them to me or not, you know. Yeah. That's, that's so great. I've, I've heard,

um, I've heard that, before a genocide will happen throughout history, one common occurrence is the side that commits the genocide will call the other side a kind of vermin. They're rats. Less than human. They're less than human. So we use linguistics to dehumanize others.

And if you can think, oh, I'm just going, I'm killing the rats. like let's clean it out. It can, it has ethical consequences. You know, it makes it easier for one group of people to, you know, commit a mass slaughter of others. This is getting back to books, I promise. But I believe that fiction is one of the greatest empathy drugs to have ever been created. Because you're learning about the human experience of others you disagree with. And if you're a good writer, they say, like, if there's a quality, my editor once said,

what's their wicked gleam? Every character should have a wicked gleam. So if I'm writing about my stepdad Foster and I'm like, well, fuck this day, you know, I'm going to make him into a bad person. That's not good writing because that's not honest. You know, he has his own wicked gleam. And I mean, he's got a lot of great qualities. You know, maybe not the best example, but like so often it's easy to flat.

and others' viewpoints, their personalities. You know, it's, oh, you're from California. You must believe all this litany of shit. Oh, you're from Texas. You must believe all. And it's just, we dehumanize others to the point where we're no longer even paying attention. And, you know, fiction is about what it means to be alive. Every fiction book is about what it means to be alive.

Even if it's a book about plants and trees, it's about what does it mean for those things to be alive? And if we can continue to learn how to see each other with more nuance and more grace and align on what it is that we do agree on, that's how we keep this whole ship afloat, man. It really, it comes down to that. And it's fragile. You know, it comes down to every single person looking at one another, individual interactions, what is the tone that we take with others? can we see the best in each other? And it's a day-to-day question that we all need to ask ourselves. And I really, I believe that fiction is one of the best tools to see each other with more grace.

100%. I think in that if you distilled many of Christ's teachings into that, you know, love thy neighbor is executed through the exact type of thinking that you have there. David Martin told me that that originally tolerance, I think it was a word that came from ancient Persia in Iran. And it meant, it didn't mean to tolerate somebody that you would put up with them. It meant that you would actually, if you, to tolerate someone would be to try on their clothes, to eat their food, to listen to their song, to dance in the way they dance.

It meant to not become them at the loss of yourself, but to engage with them in a way where you'd walk a mile in their shoes. And I was like, well, that's a special. way of thinking that is so lost. It's so hard. God damn it. It's so hard. I love certainty.

I love certainty. I love hating people. Hating people and flattening their personalities and calling them vermin. It's so easy to do. It's like it really takes, it takes constant pushing against this like inertia, you know, to continue to open and broaden. I've thought about, you know, what, you know, that the Marshall, McLuhan line, like the medium is the message quite a lot in terms of asking myself,

what mediums do I really want to engage in as a storyteller? And I think that podcasting is a medium that incentivizes curiosity. Because if you're no longer able to ask each other questions and feel like, oh, well, let's chop it up on the mic for a while, it's not going to be a very good podcast. So it's like even if you are a narcissist and they're just shitty, like you're going to become more open by doing podcasts. And I think that like Instagram's kind of the opposite. We're like if you're just on there all the time, like it's going to subtly shift your personality to see others with a more, just a flattened version.

And you're going to think of yourself more often. And I think about that. Like, you know, media is like, it's like sunlight that's just constantly slowly affecting your brain. And I've been very, you know, just very heartened to get into the book writing business. Because I think that by putting words on paper for anyone, whether or not it becomes your profession, whether or not you ever get published, it's just a net good for yourself. So, yeah, I mean, I appreciate that you are sharing fiction on, you know, on Instagram and on your podcast. because I think that often it takes someone like you to tell other people, like, no, this shit's

really good. You have permission to like books that might, you might otherwise not, you know, think you would enjoy, you know, and that for me, too, it has been one thing that I've constantly had to remind myself is read the books that you really enjoy. Don't read the books that will make you seem like you're smart. Like, be true to the shit you really like. Like my favorite author is a gay 63-year-old named David Sedaris who writes about the funniest little moment-to-moment interactions of human folly.

Like not surfing, not athletes. It's just like, dude, but David Sedaris, something about him. When I crack open one of his books, it puts a smile on my face. And I'm like, okay, I'm ready to take on the day now. Is he like Seinfeld? Like, I'm trying to think of like what do you speak. like Seinfeld in the way that he

is noticing the smallest, strangest details about culture. Like one of his, and he's an essayist. I mean, he's a guy who can, you know, Phil Carnegie Hall with his lecture, with his lectures because they're just so fucking funny. He's like a stand-up

comedian. Like, one of his classic essays is in, I believe it's in, he went to Holland and learned that in Holland, Santa is not pulled by reindeer, he's pulled by six to eight black men.

Like that's the myth of Santa and like that no one could tell him whether it was six or eight, but like it's just this like thing that fucking persists and he's like he does it with so much lightness and levity

that like she's like fucking smiling along with like what the fuck they have this story in Holland that it's, I'm pretty sure it's Holland forgive me to anyone who is from Holland, if that's wrong. But, like, now, Sedaris is my guy. And he was one of the guys that I would kind of copy a page of before I would get into writing one last question before you go. Because I found that having that light tone and that kind of humor and levity would be really important to carry through in a book as kind of intense as family.

Yeah. And that's why I brought up my buddy, Clay Martin. and we've been hunting before. And one of my favorite hunting trips of all time was with you and Chris Ryan and Ben Greenfield and Peter and Tia. You must do it again. But I've been doing a lot of rifle here just because the land is different. We, you know, wanted to, I love learning long range shooting and things like that from Clay. It was a Marine Recons sniper. He's been on the podcast.

But he's also an author. You know his book somewhere here. They're small, but they're on the end of the world, right? They're on the end of the world. What happens in the city, concrete jungle, and then urban fires. what happens, you know, in the rural areas and how it all goes down and shakes out. But he's so fucking funny in there

that it actually breaks the ice in a way where, like, it's not doom and gloom where you're like, oh, fuck, man, I read this book and life sucks and we're all screwed. It was just like hilarious. You know, I think about that. If there was a zombie apocalypse,

I'd want to be, you know, like the guys in zombie land just cracking jokes like Woody Harrelson, you know, like swinging for the fences. It's often some of the funniest stuff to write about. Yeah. Yeah, there's that classic, reminded me of that classic photo. I think it's like a World War II photo, black and white, of a guy in, you know, he's in a bunker

and there's an explosion going off behind him. So he's like, he's huddled down, you know, he's about to die. And you can just see he's cracking up. Like the photo is him like dying, laughing. And it's such a crazy, isn't it weird that in, I mean, I say, you know, some of the funny people I know are big wave surfers, right? And someone gets taken out by a 40-foot wave and it's like, ah, mockly, you know, assuming that they're going to be okay. Like, that's ironically where some of the biggest laughs can come from, right, is in the most intense situations. And

thank fucking God we got laughter, man, because we need it. Yeah, I got to watch. I haven't seen it yet, but speaking of laughter, I got to watch Chappelle's new one. It's funny. Every time he does one, like, well, he's certainly going to go to jail for this or he's certainly going to get in trouble for this, but that's something I've always appreciated South Park, too. You know, just like, they're, they're in comedy, there's a way to get away with saying shit you couldn't normally say. Exactly. And it's only in that, laughing, able to laugh about it that, like, softens it and brings us

back to center. 100%, man. I mean, yeah, in my book, you know, talking about conspiracy stuff, you know, and what you said at the beginning of this conversation, like, entertain it. But the second you go full cowbell and go like, this is the fucking way. It is. It's just not a very nice way to go through the day. It's not the best way to approach life anyway.

You think about like Bruce Lee, like never fight angry. Yeah. Right. If there is a war going on, fifth generational warfare or any of these things, like, like, sure, okay. And how do I best approach that? Not with in fight or flight with tunnel vision, right? From my calm and aware center, right?

Where my vision can expand. I can make conscious decisions, the best decisions. I'm not operating at a place of fear. or anger, you know, and what I find, too, if you enter into that rabbit hole with the, and you get tunnel vision is now you're compromised in a way, right? You could maybe even get radicalized, but the point there is that you're not the best version of yourself. You're not going to enter a fight or a battle and come out on top if you're entering yourself

in at that kind of low form, you know, the best way to have the best chance against anything nefarious is to be the best version of yourself. and that constant that's serenity prayer just working my way back to what are the ways and where should I get there a cold tub works for me running works for me meditating works for me yeah we're the same you and I are the same person we need we need to hurl ourselves into freezing bodies of water and tire ourselves out to to get there and that's awesome man well brother it's it's it's been so great I love the fact that you're writing a book and and told me about it was like yes, dude, 100% let's podcast of the podcast you do with the rest of the guys I was able to set

you up with her great. Kyle's out of town, you know, but he loved you and gave you a big shout out to the homies I introduced. I love, Cal. You know, we went on a meditation retreat together. No shit. He was at Mount Madonna in California with Adi Ashanti when I did a meditation there. And he was like, he's like, you know, Kyle Kingsbury?

Like, are you guys? Because he had, I think, listened to one of our podcasts. But yeah, I really like that guy. And, you know, you might introduce me to Adjashanti's work. too, right? Bro, I'm God. Am I fucking mind? No, seriously, man.

Thanks for having me out. I really appreciate you reading the book with the tone that I hoped it would be received, you know, and I hope that others can do that too. Whether or not you, you know, where you fall on global issues is just so secondary to family. And the lessons and the techniques that I've learned in this book, I really hope can be applicable to anyone, no matter their worldview and no matter their status of relationship with their parents or anyone else. You know, it's a book about how to interview your parents, but it's really a book about how to become a good question asker in life. Yeah. And I love it, dude.

It's a great book. It's also, you know, a key set to becoming a better listener, which is kind of being pushed away. way with the three second swipes, you know, and the short form takeover. You know, like there's, there's podcasting and books, which still continue the long form. But how do you engage with that outside of a podcast? We'll actually learn how to listen, you know, and if you really give a shit about the listening, you should work on your questionings because that that's the thing that leads to good conversation and draws out the best answers. Indeed. Yeah. So I don't know when this is coming out, but, you know, I'm in Austin right now, January 8th. We're doing, so we're doing a whole

store tour at Patagonia stores around the country. They're all free events, but there's also an interactive element to it. All the events are BYOP. Bring your own parents, if you want. I'll be there, and we're doing January 8th in Austin, then January 22nd in Portland, February 19th in New York. So if anyone wants to come hang in person, I would really love to see you. Fuck yeah, brother. Where can people get their hands on the book? You'd also did the Audible, which I love. Yep. And then where can people follow your podcast, website, all that stuff?

Yeah. Audible, you can listen to the book. One last question before you go is what it's called. And you can get it on Amazon. That's probably the best place. And if you want to order it to a local bookstore, most local bookstores will just take it and order it there. So appreciate everyone supporting the book. And I hope you all enjoy it.

My podcast is the Kyle Tierman Show. It's available anywhere. your ears want to listen. And if you want to scroll through the archives, some of my favorite episodes have been with Mr. Kyle Kingsbury, so you can go back because the great thing about podcasts is they theoretically will be up there forever. So people can scroll through the archives and listen to some of our fine work in years past. Way back. Yeah, years past, brother. Well, thank you so much, brother.

Thank you.