Kyle Kingsbury Podcast - #447 The Heart of Jesus w/ Aaron Abke

Episode Date: March 4, 2026

Kyle introduces guest Aaron Abke of the Jesus Way podcast, praising his focus on what Jesus taught beyond church dogma and his knowledge of Rudolf Steiner and the Law of One. After bonding over Bay Area roots and King’s Academy connections, Aaron shares his upbringing in a charismatic megachurch with supernatural experiences, then describes disillusionment at a legalistic church where women required “covering,” which led him to question biblical infallibility and Paul’s teachings versus Jesus’. He left Christianity, studied Alan Watts, Zen, Hinduism, and non-duality for years, but returned to Jesus’ “red letters” when those paths didn’t end suffering, emphasizing love, forgiveness, and deeds as salvation from present suffering. They discuss NDEs, plant medicine, service-to-others vs service-to-self, early Nazarene “Two Ways” teachings, gnosticism, the Gospel of Thomas’ authenticity, reincarnation of the Christ principle, and Aaron’s offerings through the Jesus Way podcast and 4D University.   Connect with Aaron here: Instagram 4D University   From Kyle: The Community is coming! Click here to learn more   Our Sponsors: Let’s level up your nicotine routine with Lucy. Go to Lucy.co/KKP and use promo code (KKP) to get 20% off your first order. Lucy offers FREE SHIPPING and has a 30-day refund policy if you change your mind   Connect with Kyle: I'm back on Instagram, come say hey @kylekingsbu Twitter: @kingsbu Our Farm Initiative: @gardenersofeden.earth Odysee: odysee.com/@KyleKingsburypod Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/@Kyle-Kingsbury Kyle's Website: www.kingsbu.com - Gardeners of Eden site If you enjoyed this podcast, please subscribe & leave a 5-star review with your thoughts!

Welcome back to the podcast. We have a very special guest, Aaron Abke, also known as the host of the Jesus Way. Now, if you're like me, or at least how I've been the past, say, 15, the past 40 years of my life, that podcast title is a turnoff. It was a turnoff to me for many, many decades. And only recently have I not become a Christian or anything like that, but wanted to actually study and know, like, what was it that that Christ actually taught? What did it mean to become the Christ? And so if you've listened to my podcast with Edmund Knighten, even my podcast with Dr. Mark Gaffney,

who talks about the teachings of Yeshua, there's some really solid stuff there that goes well beyond dogma and religiosity, for that matter. So I think there's, you know, I have become quite curious to dive into these topics. And when I came across Aaron, I saw him on Aubrey's podcast. And then actually Edmund Knighton had just done a podcast

when Edmunds taught some fantastic stuff to me on the life of Jesus and, you know, what it took to become the Christ, just incredible stuff. But he has Aaron, this, I love this podcast through and through because of all the things he lays out that he disagrees with from the church, that he disagrees with regularly with Christians. So if you're, consider yourself a Christian, listen to this podcast, don't throw the baby out with the bathwater and see if there's things that are worth looking into. That's all, you know?

you don't consider yourself a Christian, if you consider yourself agnostic or, you know, atheist, atheist, it might not be for you. But for people that have a spiritual connection, you're going to love this podcast because Aaron has made it his life's work to drill into what is exactly that Christ taught and how do we live better. He also has a fantastic understanding of Rudolph Steiner and a fantastic understanding of the law of one, which I have geeked out on this. That's why I had Edmund Knighton on the podcast to begin with. So love, love, love this interview. and we'll run it back for sure. Share this with friends far and wide.

Thank you guys. We have, dude, we have so many mutual friends. Let's start that up. I love the small world shit. It's so funny to me when people are like, oh, you know, you know, so and so that kind of thing. And you saw, you saw the 408 area code first. Uh-huh.

And I was like, dope, dude, big area. So you grew up out there. Sunnyville. I was born in San Jose. I grew up in Sunnyville. Me too. Went to Monta Vista. Born in San Jose.

Yeah. Played Pop Warner Football at Fair Oaks Park with the Microsunville, Micro Rockets. That's right where my parents' church was, dude. I knew it was right around it. So, like, I only knew. Fair Oaks and Lawrence. Yes.

Yeah, I live right down the street from there. Holy shit, man. Super close, like Reed Avenue. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, Daniel Puter, a good friend of mine. I trained with in fighting. We were co-captains of the wrestling team. You know, he had come from King's Academy, I think, through K-3-6.

Dude, he had a killer wrestling club. Yeah, he was a freak, dude, but he came in. I mean, let me explain this to people. What's his name? Daniel Puter. He won the day. W.W.E. Million dollar tough enough. So it was like their version of the ultimate fighter. You're only guaranteed a quarter million, but if you stay, you get a quarter million a year.

They cut them after year one, so he only got a quarter million. But he still won the whole thing. Hey, quarter mill. And it was based on athleticism and all that. It wasn't based so much on the mic skills. So after that, he took that loss and started doing, you know, speaking classes and different things. And he got really good rocking the mic. But at the time, like, the MIS took over because the MIS was one of his opponents. And he ended up staying. But Puter, freshman year in high school, school we called him the ogre he was like our giant wow same size as me like an inch shorter but he had wrists as big as my ankles wow and so as a true freshman in high school i'm talking shit to all the all the older football players and like this guy's gonna be he'll beat any of you in arm wrestling

like yeah right and said one by one by one these guys line up wow you're talking seniors with like a 400 pound bench press we're getting smoked by him in arm wrestling he just had a gift his upper body strength was unlike anything i'd ever seen before and he could have been I mean, he was ranked in the state for California State wrestling. He was 8 and O in MMA before he went into wrestling. Wow. So he was doing really good in Strike Force. And just, I mean, gifted, be gifted beyond belief.

Yeah. But that's the only person I ever met from King's Academy. I knew of the school. Didn't know a lot of people from it. And so when you said that was where your dad, you know, that was your dad's place. It was like, that is fucking ultra small. That's crazy. That's crazy, man.

We had on our wall a placard of it. It looked like the Ten Commandments, and it was the 300 club. and then we had a 400 club. The guy that supervised the weight room and taught, he was a chiropractor, his name was Dr. Joe Momone, and he was a huge burly guy, former bodybuilder, and he was obsessed with bench pressing. So that's why I got it into working out,

it's because of him. And on the wall, the first name was, I remember Daniel. I don't remember his last name, but now that you said, I'm like, that was the guy. He was the first guy ever to make the 300 club in our school. And then, you know, I knew some, like, seniors ahead of me that were on it. It was my absolute goal, bro,

to get on that club when I was in high school. I love those clubs. And I, even the 225 club. You just see it and you're like, well, that's where I can start. And then I can go up from there, you know?

But it's like your name lives on in King's Academy, immortality, you know, if you make the club. And in my bench, I only got to 285. I was pretty close. I was a skinny kid in high school.

That's still great for a skinny kid. You know, like, think of how strong that is from when you first start. Like when the, you're like, oh, this looks easy. I've done pushups and you get into the bar

and just the bar starts the teeter totter. Yeah. Because your body's not used to that rep range, that motion, you know, it has a grease of the groove on it. I started with like 25s in the freshman year. God, that's cool. Yeah. Tell me about life growing up. I want to know like your backstory.

And, you know, obviously, you know, your upbringing from your parents was probably a pretty big part of this, right? Explain that to me. Because, I mean, I had gone to church. We'd mostly bounced in and out of non-denominational churches. My parents had, you know, done transcendental meditation and studied in the East and kind of kind of a lot of different things. So they were broad and they never force-fed anything, but there were certain things to me that stuck out as like, man, that doesn't seem like that's right when I would be in class.

And if I ask questions, I get in trouble. So I was one of those kids. And eventually when I was old enough, I just said, hey, I'd rather not go. You know, I believe in God, but I'd rather not go to church. And they're like, that's okay. And occasionally they drag me in on Christmas and Easter or whatever, but they didn't force us to go every Sunday again or were to Sunday school or Wednesday nights. Do you know what church?

Do you remember the church name that they went to? I'm trying to think. There's been a couple of them, but there was one in Palo Alto, it was a huge church. Lesbian pastor ran it. Oh, okay. I wonder what denomination that was. It was non-denominational.

But yeah, that was a, it was like a, you know, they were progressive. Progressive, highly progressive, obviously. Yeah, highly progressive. Yeah, it's been so long. But tell me about your life, dude. What was, you know, like, did all this stuff vibe with you? Did you have any mystical experiences? Like explain what life was like.

You know, was it forced on you? Were you like fucking fascinated by it? Yeah. Dude, my, you know, most cherished memories growing up are all in church. I was really blessed to have, you know, amazing parents. I'm a third generation pastor's kid. And my dad, he had really great parents as well, but they were Nazarene, which is funny because I teach about Nazarene Christianity now.

But they were Nazarene like, it's a branch of like the Baptist denomination. like very legalistic type of denomination. And my dad was like not allowed to do anything growing up. You couldn't even watch TV. He had to wear the same thing to school every day. He got picked on. So he was like, I'm never going to treat my kids like this when I have children one day. And so they were very like free reign with us.

They didn't give us a lot of rules. They wanted us to be real kids. So I was blessed for that reason as well. Most PKs get choked out and they just leave the church and they don't want anything to do with God, you know. But I was not like that, man. I was like the golden boy pastor's kid. I wanted to be a pastor just like my dad. And I loved church.

I loved Jesus. My faith was super sincere and devout. And I went to Oral Roberts University to get my bachelors in music and theology to become a worship pastor. And so I did that at 23 and started my ministry career. You'll appreciate this because you grew up in the bay and you probably know of the campus. but my dad, our church was on King's Academy campus. In fact, it was the old Sunnyvale High School campus. For some reason, Sunnyvale High School shut down in the 80s.

Uh-huh. And so our church, which was called Springs of Life Fellowship, took over the Sunnyville High School campus. And then within like two or three years of our church, we really like blew up and flourished there. A homeschooling program started, and I was like five when this happened. And they called it the King's Academy. And within a few years, that blew up.

and it became like a legit private school within like five years. And so I ended up going to school there as well. So I grew up going to that campus from four, four and a half or five years old. You know, Sundays, Wednesday nights, sometimes Saturday nights, we were having like blowout revival services. Our church was like the mega church to be at in the early 90s. And we would have people fly out from like Africa and Korea and all kinds of places to come to our services because we were having like crazy healing, miracle.

happen and all kinds of evangelists would come and speak there. So it was like a rock in place to grow up. I saw all kinds of crazy supernatural stuff, dude. Not just healing, but like paranormal events. Yeah. You know, you would appreciate this too, right? When you get a lot of people, you've facilitated a lot of groups. Like when you get a lot of people in a space and you get them really charged up, connected with God, connected with each other, connected with love, like it becomes a container for the miraculous, you know? Yeah. So we created that container every week with our worship services. We had an amazing worship band.

My parents played in as well. And I would see, like, I remember this one time, just to give you an example, we were really like in this intense, praise and worship atmosphere. People are running around the service, like pretty common for evangelicals. Flags wave in, tambourines, you know, people running, dancing everywhere. And I'll never forget, man, a lightning bolt stretched from the left side. of the stage, it made it arc all the way to the right side of the stage. Boom, huge flash. And everybody, like, stopped what they were doing. And, like, almost everyone fell out

onto the ground. And I think a lot of it was just out of, like, fear of the Lord, you know, like, what just happened? It was like some Moses shit, bro. Are we doing anything wrong? Yeah, like, is this a good lightning strike or a bad one? So I was, like, eight when this happened. So, anyway, like stuff like that would happen sometimes. So I grew up in this environment where the supernatural was normal to me. And it wasn't until I got my first church job at 23 years old at a church also in San Jose, in downtown San Jose called Crossroads Bible Church. You might have heard of it.

And they were a very legalistic. I want to say they were four square or AG. Explain that for people like, what is legalistic? Does that mean like by the book more fundamental or how does that play out? Yes, it means more legalistic by the book, more fundamentalist. legalistic denominations are the kind that will take, they say every word of the Bible is literally true, and you have to adhere,

it's God's rule book from heaven. So there's a lot of restrictions and rules, right? You mentioned, you saw me on the podcast I did with Edmund's Knighton, and he was explaining Steiner's model of Lucifer Aramon Christ. Are you familiar with that model? Oh, yeah, yeah. Paul Check is, I actually met Edmund through Paul Check. Paul Check did a five-hour treatise on that,

which was phenomenal. but I've been talking to different Steiner advocates about that for a while before Paul dropped that bomb. Chervine, Jefferya, who's a founder of Symbiotica, has a deep wealth of knowledge and Steiner stuff. So I've been drawn to that. So, yeah. Podcasts was, I will share that podcast in the show notes for anybody that wants to check it out with you in Edmund. It was great. Yeah, so good, man.

Edmund's amazing. And he helped me to understand that model. I'd heard of it, but not understood it yet. And the way that my mind immediately related to it was like, Aramon is religion, Lucifer's like New Age. You know what I mean? Like you have the way too much control and restriction in religion. So that's legalism. Okay.

Fundamentalism. And then the Luciferic path is like more of the new age type of like freedom to the point of excess. Ascend, you know, nothing to see here. There's no work to be done on planet Earth just ascend, get the hell out of here. The spirit is more valuable than the body. Yeah. Aramon, the body's more valuable. the spirit doesn't exist, you're all blood and bones.

Yes, totally, yeah. So it was a very arumonic church that I was working at. And a series of things happened that woke me up. But basically, the biggest one that happened was a woman went on stage, like, I think it was my first or second week there. And she goes up to give an offering testimony. And a man goes up to stand behind her. And he's kind of standing there almost like a bodyguard or something. And I'm thinking of my brain, because I know the Bible really well, I'm thinking,

God, please don't let this be what I think it is, which is that this church is so legalistic that they literally take the scriptures, I think it's from 2nd Timothy, literally that say a woman should never speak in church without her husband's approval and covering and all that. And I'm like, please don't let that be true. And sure enough, she gets done with her testimony

and they hold hands and go sit down together. And I'm like, oh no, like I'm working at a really fundamentalist church. I didn't realize this. And I had just gotten married, by the way, to my first wife who was a Christian, I was 23, she was 20, and she also picked up what was going on. We drive home and she's like, she's pissed off. I'm not so much pissed off as I am worried and concerned because it was really

rattling my cognitive dissonance. Yeah, it's a lot to grasp. Yeah, I don't believe that that's God. Like, that's not what God wants. That's man-made bullshit, you know. That's a patriarchical nonsense. It's from a different time where that made sense in a completely different time. From an ancient world, it's not what God wants for us.

And so I had to wrestle with that and say, like, man, does that mean the Bible's not infallible? Because I never really questioned that to that extent before. So I did what any good Christian does when they have their cognitive dissonance triggered on the Bible, which is let me try to find another Bible scripture that I can use to refute that one with and dismiss it. You jitzy your way out of that. Exactly, dude. Let me get that triangle choke on that Second Timothy verse. And I tried, man.

And I'm digging through Paul. all the Pauline epistles, and I can't find anything good. Paul says about women. Like, well, but Paul says a good thing over here. I couldn't find it. And then I'm reading Paul because I never really studied Paul, like in so much focus as I did then, because I'm looking for answers. And I started to realize like, hey, I'm not seeing anything Jesus teaches in Paul.

Like Paul doesn't teach anything Jesus taught. In fact, a lot of the stuff I'm reading seems to go against what Christ taught. And that's a problem. And I couldn't unsee it at that point. And so the more I tried to resolve it, the more the bigger the problem occurred to me, appeared to me. And so at 23 or 24, I decided I need to blow up my life, leave Christianity. I can't live in this religion anymore. I don't believe in this God.

And I started over basically from scratch at that point. And that led to a successive series of other spiritual awakenings, went and studied Eastern traditions for a long time. Slow, slow down, baby. There's good shit. No, no, no. You can't lost over any of that. I want to. We'll double click.

If we stay on the meat and potatoes of this and have to run back two or three of these podcasts, that's fine. I want to know this story. I want to know what popped you in a different direction. So we've got the catalyst here. We've got a problem that doesn't make sense. You leave the church.

You're like, that doesn't make sense either. And now you have some soul searching to do. What does make sense? Break down, whatever you called to? What were you drawn to? You said you studied some of the Eastern things. Like, what was the next step after that? So it was, first it was like Alan Watts.

Okay. Eckhart Tolle, Muji, some like contemporary spiritual teachers. And it was probably through Alan Watts that I got into the Buddhism, Zen especially, and then really got attracted to Hinduism and Neo-Advita or Advita Vedanta and the non-dual traditions. And I studied those for like seven or eight years almost exclusively because I kind of pushed Christianity away. And it wasn't until I got to a point where I'm like, okay, I have all this spiritual knowledge. but it's not really helping me stop suffering. And I couldn't figure out why,

because these teachings and these ancient texts and sutras and so forth promise me that when I come to the non-dual realization of the self, like I won't suffer. And I feel like I understand it. Like I believe fully that I'm one with source and there is no self. There's no separate self. But I'm still suffering. And that's what gave me a deep appreciation for Jesus' true gospel teachings.

I came back full circle having gained all this new kind of Eastern philosophy. And I saw that Jesus was very much just a enlightened, ascended master who was teaching the same things as Buddha and Krishna and Lao Tzu, but in a very kind of Hebraic Semitic way, a very prophetic way. But what I was missing was the very grounded spiritual teachings that Jesus gave, which is, hey, guys, you know, non-duality, that's great. oneness, self-realization, but if you don't love your neighbor as yourself,

you got nothing. You know, you're empty inside. And so Jesus was going around condemning the Pharisees because they were subjugating and doing harm to the people with their man-made traditions and practices. And, you know, he taught things like,

if you don't forgive your brothers, your Heavenly Father can't forgive you because this is, the universe is built on balance. You know, what you hold against someone else has to be held against you. and all of these things fly completely in the face of what Christianity teaches. And so what I teach now because of this whole journey and arc I've been on is, I call it the Jesus way because it's like,

hey, let's just go back to the red letters of Jesus and do away with all the other nonsense that I got added on to his gospel. Paul, Roman Catholic Church fathers and later traditions like Trinitarianism. This is all a distraction and man-made garbage that Jesus didn't teach any of it. And like, for example, you can ask any Christian, you can ask any Christian pastor, walk into any church you want and say, Pastor, please tell me, what must I do to inherit eternal life? This is what the rich young ruler asks Jesus in all three synoptic gospels. And Jesus responds with something that you'll never hear a pastor ever say, which is, if you want to enter eternal life, keep the commandments. Love God with all your heart and love your neighbor as yourself.

and these commandments fulfill the entire law. You'll never hear a Christian pastor say that. But what you will hear them say is, well, you have to confess Jesus as your personal Lord and Savior. Believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, and you will be saved. That's Romans 10, 9. So they quote Paul, not Jesus.

And so I started asking, can you show me where Jesus said that? Oh, well, yeah. And they look around and they're digging through the Gospels. Well, in John, he says, believe in me. say, great, I do believe in him. Where's confess me as Lord and Savior and believe I rose from the dead and died my blood atoned for your sin?

You don't find that anywhere in Jesus. So is it possible that we've corrupted his gospel a little bit and might need to, out of respect for him, go back to the red letter teachings and say, what did Jesus himself teach about salvation? And that has become the basis of my whole spirituality is. I really believe that Jesus's words alone are sufficient for salvation. I think he showed us the perfect way to God. And when I say salvation, by the way, I don't even mean like from hell or something.

Right. I mean from sin, from suffering in this life. From hell right now. You got it. You know, like that's been my experience. Actually, Buddhism explained that in a great way because there's this eight levels of experience. We can have any one of us could be in one of these realms right now, right here on the 3D. Yeah.

And hell is a realm. Yes. I've lived in hell for about 17 days after a gnarly plant medicine journey that just turned me on and wouldn't turn off. Oh, man. And it was dark as fuck. And thankfully, I was able to close that and move through it and learn something from it. But that was my full experience. Wow.

And hell would be different for each and every one of us, right? But that was my hell for certain. And you can, you know, realize the kingdom within and be in that place while you're here too, right? But there's that full degree, that full arc, all the gray in between those that we get to experience. And that's where I feel like that's the pointer, right? It's not the pointer to when you die, all this good shit's going to happen. and it's the point or two right now, always in the eternal present, you can experience this right now.

Yeah. And so that's something I've been drawn to as well. You're nailing it, dude. That is what Jesus taught. When you just study Jesus, and the thing that Christians do and they don't know they're doing it, is they're always enforcing Pauline theology onto Jesus and stuffing Paul's words into Jesus's mouth,

which is why I call it Paulianity instead of Christianity, because it's like this religion is based on Paul. Sorry, it's 100% based on Paul. And you find this out very quickly when you confront Christians with Jesus's teachings, and you find out that they're just going to keep refuting you with Paul's teachings. If you quote, well, Jesus said, you can't be saved unless you forgive others. They say, well, brother, but Paul said, Romans 10, 9, saved by faith alone, apart from works. And that's another one, a works-based gospel versus a faith-based gospel.

Christianity says, we cannot be saved by works. You know, you've heard this before, right? That's filthy rags to God. Your works are nothing to God. You're saved by faith alone through grace and all that. And it's like, okay, where did Jesus say that? What did Jesus teach? Jesus taught parable after parable about God separating the wheat from the tears, the sheep from the goats, all based on their works, how they love their neighbor or how they harmed their neighbor.

And then he says in five different verses, three in Revelation, two in Matthew, one in John, I will judge every man according to their works. God will judge every man according to their works. By your deeds, you shall be judged. And I find this to be totally congruent with near-death experiences. If you watch them, right? This is exactly what people say when they die and come back to tell about it. They say, yeah, guys, the universe is basically just a big morality test. You're going to look at your life and judge yourself by one criteria.

How did I judge others? And it's like, that's the gospel of Jesus. All right, guys, quick break to tell you about my brand new community that is launching this year, the kingdom within. This has been many years in the making. I've had a lot of iterations of the things that I've learned about and wanted to teach through fit for service for six or seven years, coaching one-on-one clients, literally thousands of people that have come through my coaching and been shaped by me and who have shaped me. So what is it about? It's about the body. The body is a doorway.

It opens up all systems. The body is the temple. It's about the mind as a system. How do we categorically learn how to use the mind so it can sit in the passenger seat, not in the driver's seat? and then how do we connect to ourselves, right? How do we connect to each other? How do we connect to our parents? How do we connect to nature?

How do we connect to God in a safe way, right? All of these things are critically important, but it starts with the body, and then we lead in with the mind, and then we dive into connection. And the community is a field. It is a container actively that supports this. Everybody who joins this community is going to be thinking along the same lines. You will come there for your own reasons, but everybody is coming with a willingness to grow and a willingness to learn. And with that, you have a container that leads for potential transformation.

At the very least, the knowledge is going to be palpable. And so I'll be teaching once a month on their webinars on some of the most important, potent things that I think working from body to mind to connection and beyond. And of course, every other two weeks, there will be a Q&A that will go, which will just answer each and every one of your questions. A huge resource list of every book that I've ever read, the why behind it, and where I think you should start, because a lot of of times people get overwhelmed. You get recommended two different books on sleep, two different books on health, whatever the thing is, where do you start? Well, that's an important piece that only you can answer, but I can help you with that. And through a little Q&A and active

back and forth, you will have all the help necessary to launch yourself into the best direction you've ever been from a health standpoint, from a mental standpoint, and from a life standpoint, because life is about connection. It's about relationship and how I relate to myself as well as others. It's the name of the game. All right. Please join us at the kingdom within all you got to do is go to kingsboo.com and you can sign up right there and I look forward to seeing you guys you want to learn more we'll link to it at the top page of the show notes and now back to the podcast I was just talking to a friend about who has not done plant medicines but it's interested in it and I'm like you know the the life review that they talk about hinduism and things like that of

i haven't had a full life review but I have had a couple of journeys where I get a mini same and the depth of that experience there's the before that experience and after that experience because once you experience as yourself and as other, and that other is you experiencing the words coming out of Kyle's mouth, like it fucking shifts all of it. Like it's just, it's unforgettable. It breaks you. Yeah.

It's unlearnable. And just that snippet is that powerful, right? Yeah. I did a mushroom trip in my 20s when I was coming, I came out of Christianity. I was like a closet atheist for a while. All I knew is like, I don't believe in the Christian God for sure. I know that that's a man made.

fiction. So what is God? Is there a God? I had to go through that, you know, but I was very terrified of being an atheist. I obviously never wanted to be an atheist, but I'm like, I don't want to believe anything that's not true. I'm not just going to buy whatever someone sells me next, like I did with Christianity. I want to know for sure what's true, and I'm going to put it to the test, you know. So the first place I thought to go, you know, was, oh, if anybody knows about the truth of life and what happens after we die and stuff, it's got to be people who've died. So I became obsessed with NDE's and would spend all day long reading them. What's that big?

There was a really good book. Proof of God, something like that. Proof of heaven. Proof of heaven. There's a couple of other ones that came out. They were like big in that space. Yeah, Dr. Eben Alexander, I think. And then there's Dr. Raymond Moody has a bunch of great books.

He wrote like the first bestseller on NDE's. So I was reading them and that gave me some real comfort and solace of, okay, there definitely is a God and that God definitely is good and all the things that I basically believed about God in Christianity. But I still had a lot of questions. So I did a lot of mushroom journeys in my 20s to get myself straightened out. And I'll never forget one of them. I took way too much on accident.

I switched the bags, you know? Tell me what way too much is. I like hearing stories like this. Yeah, it was nine grams. All right, all right. Nine dried grams. I like that. Five is what Terrence McKenna calls the heroic dose.

So we almost double that. You qualify for a high dose experience. I didn't do it in silent darkness, though. That's part of his heroic dose, I think, protocol. But it might as well have been. I think when you go past five grams, you could be at Burning Man. It's still going to be an experience. It doesn't matter.

Yeah, you're going for it. Yeah. I'm in my little apartment in San Jose. I was working at Google at the time as a personal trainer, like a corporate personal trainer at Google. So I lived in this little, you know, fifth floor apartment and accidentally took nine grams. And it was really terrifying because I was so overdosed on the mushrooms. I could not sit, I could not lie down or stand. All three positions were like certain death, you know?

If I like... Were you crawling on hands and knees? Just like constantly switching positions and grabbing on itself. Oh, man. It was a nightmare, dude. But in that space of just total terror, I'm thinking if I lay down, I'm definitely going to throw up and choke on my vomit and die. If I stand up, I'm going to fall over and smash my head on the counter and die.

Sitting up made me feel dizzy and want to puke. So I couldn't do anything. I was fucked, you know. So I'm crying out to God, please help me, you know. And I just saw like all my selfishness and pride and ego in a way that I had it before. And like I was like a really good guy. Like I didn't, I hadn't wronged anyone in any egregious ways. But even then, even still, just seeing my selfishness and pride and oh, it's all about me all the time.

Was just humiliating to see and look at over and over for hours. Yeah, that's the trick about something like that is because you can say mentally, oh, I get it. Thank you for showing me this. and that's you just crack the tip of the iceberg. Like you will see it or you will live it over and over and over and over and over and over. So you for sure like have that stick, you know? Yep. You got to be broken by it.

That's when it sticks is when it fully breaks you. And it did. And I took like a, I didn't do this consciously or something. I just took like a vow of silence for a day or two in that I just couldn't, I couldn't even imagine hearing my own voice. I was so humiliated with myself. I refuse to speak, just like, let me just be humble and kind and serve others. It's all about others, you know. And that was a great wake up call because that was my first entry back into Jesus'

gospel because I was like, you know, this is really all that Jesus taught and focused on, was when you did not love the least of these, you didn't do it to me. When you did love the least of these, you did it to me. And if you don't love your neighbor as yourself, you're not getting into my kingdom. I'm like, well, that's not what Christianity teaches. That's not what they emphasize. So getting back to Jesus has changed. my life, man, and the service to others' path. Obviously, there's the law of one, there's a course

in miracles. So many other texts have helped me to understand this, but I really think Jesus was teaching the most superior possible spiritual path for humankind, because we can get really lost in non-duality, even though it's good and it's true. Like I believe all the main tenets of non-duality, of course. But something about our current level of consciousness, like here in third density, it does something to the ego that just creates tremendous suffering and a split mind in people. And I've seen this over and over again, even as I started teaching non-duality to my students years ago, I would have students in my community start kind of losing their mind and going crazy on me. And some of them would become way too haughty and prideful and think that they're the next incarnation of Shiva or something.

And same for me. Like I would notice myself having a dissociation from life and the human experience. And what I love about Jesus's teachings is that it grounds us deeply in the human experience while also keeping us from the heavenly perspective of, hey, it's all about love. It's all about treating your neighbor as if they're you. But it's how we live that that matters, not just knowing about it in our mind. And so it's like the right curriculum for grade school. You know, like we're in third grade of consciousness.

We need like third grade teachings to get us to fourth grade. And to me, it's the gospel of Jesus. I love that. Yeah. The law of one to me was such an important. book because it actually framed for me at a time where I could see real evil happening. You know, I think I've talked, I've spoken about this on podcast. You see a lot of like big name people post-COVID, become Christian, become born-again

Christian. And I was like, well, you know, a lot of people ask me, why do you think that is, you know, when they had a Buddhist background or they had, you know, psychedelics or any of these other things. And I'm like, I think Christianity paints a picture that of the light in the dark in ways that other things might avoid or might not be as prominent, right? And so when you witness the light in the dark, then you're like, well, that fucking makes sense, this must be true.

Yeah. Right. And so there's a grab to the thing that makes sense. But in the law of one, they talk about service to self path versus service to the all, which is inclusive of self, right? Now, both of those ultimately serve the one. Yeah. You know, and there's some type of, you know, encoding where everything comes back to

one at a certain stage of the game. But that, that to me made sense of it in a more palpable way. It didn't make the evil less evil. It just made like a, oh, this actually makes sense to me. Yeah. that there would be people incarnating to serve the self and that there would be powers that help facilitate that. That totally makes sense.

Oh, dude. Can I draw you a cool comparison here? Mm-hmm. So the oldest Christian teaching on record ever discovered by scholars and historians is called The Two Ways. This is found in a manuscript fragment in the Dead Sea Scrolls. Part of what I teach is that Jesus came from the Asean type of Judaism. And the Aseans were the group that,

most scholars believe kept the Dead Sea Scrolls and Kumron. And there's a manuscript called the two ways. And it begins with, it says, there are two ways one may choose, the way of life and the way of death. And there is a great difference between these two ways. And then in the oldest Christian liturgy ever found, which is a text called the Didicay that was found in the late 1800s, didicate means the teaching of the 12. So this is a mid-first century text that is. No scholars debate this.

Mid to late 1st century text. That's clearly a Nazarene liturgy that claims to be written by the disciples. And it very much reads like what you would imagine the disciples would write. It's a commemoration of Jesus' teachings and his gospel. And it begins exactly the same, basically word for word the same as this Dead Sea manuscript.

It says, there are two ways one may choose, the way of life and the way of death. And there's a great difference between these two ways. And that's where the fragment cuts off. off because the manuscript, but the Didicate continues and says, the way of life is this. Do unto others as you would wish others to do unto you. And the way of death is this. It talks about pride, greed, lust, licentiousness. And so this is a clear description of the two polarities from the law of one, positive polarity, negative polarity. And as you may know,

this is all through the book of Acts and from early historians as well document that the first Christians were called Nazarenes and followers of the way. and this is in the book of Acts. In Acts 24, Paul is actually accused of being the ringleader of the Nazarene sect, whom they call followers of the way. And this is like something that most Christians probably don't think about of like, well, I wonder what followers of the way meant. What did they think that meant?

And with this discovery of the Dead Sea Scroll manuscript with the Didiquet being the same, it's like, oh, this is the first Christian teaching. This is the gospel of Jesus. They were calling themselves followers of the way, which way, the way of life. Jesus was a teacher and prophet of the way of life, and you see the two ways all through his teachings, such as the obvious one, wide is the road that leads to death, and there are many who find it, but narrow is the road that leads to life, and there are few who find it. So strive to enter through the narrow way. So this is a clear mirror to me of the teaching from the

law of one, of the two polarities. And just like you, man, it unlocked so much understanding for me of, oh yeah, of course. If God wants to create a universe of free will where love can actually be chosen authentically, then there absolutely needs to be a negative polarity where one can not choose love. Otherwise, there is no choice and there's no real experience of love. So that gives a space for evil or the negative to play a part in the universe so that we can have our part, which is the positive polarity, the way of life or the way of love. So we can stop hating evil and thinking that it's some kind of,

problem occurring in God's universe as Christianity does, right? Right, like an unfinished work of God or the imperfected, yeah, God kind of messed up with Satan, you know, the best, most beautiful, most handsome, but then Satan turned his back on God and now, you know, wants to take over and now we're fucked. Talk about, I mean, so you get into this stuff, and I vibe with everything you're saying, this while I want to have you on the podcast. When you come across something like, because I chewed on the Gnostic teachings for a while and there's certain things that make sense.

It does make sense. I mean, I'm in a conversation with Charles Eisenstein about this. You know, like, what if this realm was the hell realm? What if it was something that was that was just owned by the archons, you know? But Eisenstein puts that like, maybe we incarnated here to make this happen. Maybe we incarnated to say, fuck it, let's go to the deepest, darkest shithole in all of consciousness and raise it ten vibrations and bust us out of here, right? And I was like, I love Eisenstein.

It's like, it's a total reversal on being a victim. we're stuck in this thing that's controlled by the others, the they. And I love that. I love that thinking. But I'm curious, you know, like that even that idea of like, you know, Sophia, you know, one of the aons decides to do her work, but she does it without a male counterpart. And, you know, this thing is there's a rift, you know,

and it allows in, you know, the bad guys to come in from out of nowhere, seemingly, and impregnate the earth and kind of take over. What are your thoughts on stuff like that? Yeah. Oh, man. I mean, this could be a whole podcast. I imagine. I'm taking my master's right now in biblical studies and religious history, Christian history.

And it's just so fascinating to study Gnosticism because it's, Gnosticism is just early Christianity. That's all it is. It's not a heresy. It's the first form of Gentile Christianity. Now, the first form of Christianity, but even before that term was around was the Nazarene sect. Jesus was called a Nazarene, which was one of the two branches of Assenes. Okay. So by the first century, there was two bifurcations of the scenes.

The Oscenes to the south, and the Nassarines lived to the north and northern Galilee. And they'd split off, by the way, basically over marriage and celibacy. The Oscenes, who Josephus, Philo, and Pliny described were celibate. They would not procreate. There was no women in their camps, but they would take in children and adopt them and raise them. Whereas the Nazarenes believe, no, no, no, we're supposed to reproduce and fill God's kingdom with children. and create the next generation, right? So Jesus came from that northern sect of Essines called Nassarines.

And this is from a prophetic prophecy, a messianic prophecy in Isaiah 11, which says, A shoot shall come out of Jesse. Jesse is the father of David. A branch, which is the Hebrew word Netsar, which is the root Hebrew word for Nazarene.

And this was a messianic prophecy that describes Jesus perfectly. And sure enough, he was a Nazarene and came from that tradition. And so Eusebius and Epiphanius record, early church fathers say the first Christians, before the word Christianity was even around, they were called Nazarenes. And they followed the Jewish, they followed Mosaic law, which is just the Ten Commandments. And they believe Jesus was the Davidic Messiah. And then later came the Gnostics. The Gnostics were a Greek Christian movement that really exploded in the late first century to early second century through a man named Marcion, who is.

is the father of Gnosticism. The Marcionites was the first Gnostic group, and he was the first guy to make Paul's letters acceptable. Paul was widely rejected by almost everyone he ministered to in his day, and the Nazarenes absolutely despised Paul and rejected him as a false prophet. And this is widely recorded in early church history. But the Gnostics found, Marcion found Paul's letters and said, hey, I like this guy, because he's using platonic philosophy, stoic philosophy,

all this Hellenism, right? Paul was a diaspora Jews. So he was steeped in Hellenistic philosophy. And these Greek-Helenistic diaspora Jews are like, hey, we really like this Paul guy. And they started reading his letters and using them as scripture. And it's from Paul's letters that we get Gnosticism. So what's so funny about that to me is that Christians, as you probably know, Gnosticism is like the ultimate heretical word for them.

And if they disagree with anything you believe, they'd be like, you're Gnostic. And they have no idea what Gnostic is, by the way. They could not define it for you. but the Gnostic equals bad, you know? And it's like, well, did you know that Paul is the father of Gnosticism? Paul is the reason Gnosticism ever came into existence. And Gnosticism existed before the Catholic Church, before the Orthodox Christian movement, the Gnostics were flourishing. And most scholars believe that for a while, as the Gnostics and the Orthodox were competing with, you know, Rome and the Gnostics, that the Gnostics far outnumbered Orthodox Christians for a

while. And it was only because the Roman church had the might of the Roman Empire behind them eventually that they eventually stamped out the Gnostics by the fourth century. So it's not that the most correct tradition won out. It's that the most powerful tradition won out. The Gnostics was the populist movement, right? So to answer your question, I think the Gnostics had a lot of things right. And when I compare like Orthodox Christian theology with Gnosticism, the Gnostics have way more things correct. Orthodox theology is just an absolute dumpster fire of nonsense. We can go into that if you want. But the Gnostics, they got, I think they got some things wrong, of course, too. But their big thing that they were, they were really close to being correct

on this was, this is what sets Gnosticism apart, is the belief that the Old Testament God, Yahweh was really a demiurge or a demon in disguise, fooling the Jewish people, and that the God that Jesus represented was not the same God. And it's like, well, yeah, how can you argue with that. Have you read, what's it called, Sean O'Lear's book, Set God Free, Setting God Free? I've read, yes, I read like half of it. Everybody talks about putting Yahweh on trial, you know? Yeah, yeah, yeah. There's totally vibes of that, right? And it is very much in line with like, yeah, fucking read the shit this guy was saying to do. Oh my God. Right, read, read, does that sound like an all loving God? Like,

like, it's mind blowing, you know? That's what woke me about a Christianity too, is like this God we worship in church, this God I read about in the Old Testament, is not the same God that Jesus was demonstrating to us. And then even Jesus is obviously correcting parts of the Old Testament when he says, you've heard it was said in the days of old. I think that that was changed, by the way. I think that's an interpolation. He's quoting from, I want to say, numbers, Exodus, and Deuteronomy. Eye for an eye, tooth for tooth, right? I think he probably said, you've heard it was said in the Torah, eye for eye. But some scribes are like, oh, in the ancient times, you know.

Sweetheart, what's up? Oh, thank you. I love you, honey. I'll see you soon. That's so sweet. A little drawing. Aw, that's her name. Wolf, she signed it for me.

Oh, it's so cute. The wolf loves daddy. Oh, my God, dude. Oh, man. That warms my heart. I have a one-year-old girl. Yeah, dude, the best. Good, girls just melt you like butter.

Dude, they completely melt you. You plan on having more? Oh, yeah. The sun thing is an interesting one. I feel like that does sons for fathers stirs up some shit. Yeah. And daughters for mothers stirs up some shit.

Yeah, for sure. But that opposite is just like, you know, like a, you know, a mom's little boy. Oh, yeah. Can do no wrong. And like, Daddy's little girl can do nothing wrong. I'm just like, she gets slapped me across the face. And I'd be like, honey, what's the matter? You know, my son like talks back.

I'm like, oh, I go back. Yep. It's like, I would have worked so much for that polarity has been great balance. It's just a great balance. But that's, we had bear. He's 10 now. and then our little girl Wolf is five. So like there was five years of making mistakes before I had her to come on and just

settle me the fuck down. And now that's just absolutely changed the way I parent both of them. Oh man. It's so good. Such good medicine. Yeah, the best medicine. Let's keep talking. I liked, you know, the Nagamati comes around.

I hear a lot of people talking about it on Gaia and stuff like that. Maybe there's some new age shit there. But Greg Braden, somebody I really respect. I think he's got a lot of good medicine. Love great. It was one of the first guys that talk about the Dead Sea Scrolls and talk about the Nagamati and the book of Thomas, you know. And so I got into the book of Thomas and I was like, man, this is really cool.

How is this not like, accepted? You know, there was like this. It's like, no, this came after the fact. That was deleted for a person. Like, break this down for people. Oh, yeah, bro. I love the gospel of Thomas. It is, to me, the most powerful gospel.

And so the first gospel ever written was called the Hebrew gospel of Matthew. We don't have it. We only have 48 surviving quotes, which are absolutely gangsts. and incredible, but we have all of Thomas. So to me, Thomas is the best complete gospel on record. And it's because it was found in Nagamadi, people say it's a Gnostic gospel. But that's because they don't know what Gnosticism is. And most Gnostic scholars would agree that Thomas is not Gnostic.

There's no Dossetism in it. There's no demure. There's no, none of this stuff. It's really just, it's like a list of Zen koans from Jesus, you know? And what's cool is in the New Testament, Jesus says, To the outside, to those on the outside, everything is spoken in parables so that hearing they will be never understanding and da-da-da-da. But to those who are on the inside, it says, but in private Jesus told his disciples everything

directly. It's in Mark 11, I want to say. So Jesus had his public teachings and his private teachings. And this is part of his genius, I think, that he knew, I can't just go around Palestine teaching these things. I'm going to be stoned on the spot. You know, if the Pharisees catch me teaching, not. non-duality and stuff.

So he shrouded all his teachings in parable format, which if you think about it, is a brilliant way to protect yourself from persecution from the religious, the temple cult. Because what are they going to do? I know you're teaching non-duality. No, you're just interpreting my parable wrong, bro. All right, guys, quick break to tell you about lucy.com. Lucy offers 100% pure nicotine, as always tobacco-free. Lucy breakers are nicotine pouches with an extra surprise.

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But in private, he taught his disciples. Everything, says the Gospel of Mark. So I think in Thomas, we get the everything, right? We get the private, direct teachings. And they are absolute oracles, dude. When you read the Gospel of Thomas, especially when you come from a Zen background. You've studied Zen Buddhism. you read the gospel of Thomas and you're like,

these are, this is just spiritual genius on another level. They're so incredibly deep. And it shows us a side of Yeshua, which got scrubbed out of the Greek manuscript tradition of our Bible, that he was this unbelievable spiritual philosopher like the world's never seen. I mean, to even be able to capture these teachings in parable story format,

like how much did this guy have to think about stories to do what he did? It's incredible to me. But Thomas, in terms of its legitimacy, Christians will dismiss it and say, oh, that's a second century forgery. Sorry. Thomas's manuscript evidence is more legitimate than 99% of New Testament evidence. There's an oxyrincus. There's two oxyrincus manuscripts found of Thomas in the oxyrincus library.

One of them dates to 150 to 200. The other dates to 150 to 175 CE. And that matches perfectly with the oldest New Testament. manuscript we have, which is P52, which is a little credit card-sized fragment of the Gospel of John. And so Thomas, the manuscripts we have for Thomas predates all of the New Testament by, you know, 50 plus years at least. And when you read Thomas, the internal evidence is incredibly strong. One of the rules of textual criticism, textual criticism is the art form of deciphering what manuscripts are older and more original. And one of the main criteria scholars use is when you're comparing two different manuscripts,

whichever one is more difficult to read or is more terse in its language, more primitive sounding, is always to be preferred as the older version. And that's logical, right? Scribes would never copy a verse to make it more difficult to read and more ancient sounding. They update the language. They harmonize it. They make it easier to read, right? And so when you compare Thomas with the New Testament, the synoptics, I think Thomas shares about 40% of the same sayings with Matthew and Luke.

So a lot of the parables and teachings. But when you compare them and you read Thomases, Thomases are about 30 to 40% shorter. They're much more direct and terse in their languaging. They're very much more ancient sounding. And then Thomas shares two passages with the Hebrew Gospel of Matthew, which scholars who study the Hebrew gospel of Matthew, which again, we don't have it. We only have 48 surviving quotes from it, but it dates to 30 CE to 50 CE. And over a dozen church fathers have attested that the first gospel account ever written was written by Matthew himself, who was a tax collector.

And that really checks out when you think about it, because Matthew would have had to be literate in Hebrew to write tax records. So who of the disciples could have written a gospel? Probably Matthew. So it says Matthew wrote a gospel in Hebrew after Jesus is. crucifixion to commemorate his teachings for the Jewish Christians. And there's two of the same sayings from Thomas in the Hebrew Gospel of Matthew. One of them is, I think it's the one that says,

let the one who seeks not stop seeking until he finds. And when he finds, he will become astonished. And when he becomes astonished, he will marvel. And after he marvels, he will reign over the all. A very Zen type of teaching. So this is incredible evidence. that Thomas is very early first century text. And again, it's not a Gnostic text.

And when you read it, man, it has a very profound effect on your consciousness because it has that Zen style of teaching where it kind of bypasses your conceptual mind a bit. And it draws out the contemplation of the reader in a very unique way. So you don't read it like a book. You don't read it like you read the gospels like a story. It's not a story, right? There's no stories in it.

It's all these different sayings of it. Jesus and some of them are just truly astounding man. I think that the one way I like to to compare is like when Jung speaks about a sign versus a symbol, you know, like a sign has one meaning. It's a stop sign says stop. Totally. You know what that sign is. There's no argument over it.

But a symbol can have an infinite number of meanings that you can draw on depending on where you are at that time, what you've experienced thus far. And that's ever changing, ever living. It's alive, right? A symbol's alive. Perfect example. the as above so below quote that just gets stopped right there which is so much longer you know than that you know really was something when I first got to see it in Thomas and see how deep that goes into

you know and obviously you know when the two become one you're thinking of uh different philosophers would talk about you know when you meditate make the eyes become one and the third eye those these kind of things but like just the depth of that was like wow dude that that that captured so much of the east yeah so much of plant medicine journeys that I can couldn't put words to and I was like that's it holy shit yeah in fact there's a the last saying in thomas is one that people will poke at and say oh look at this last saying where basically jesus it's i can't remember exactly how it's worded but jesus says something about like women are inferior to men and women have to become like men first before they can enter the kingdom well most

thomascene scholars believe that that's an interpolated or added passage because our some of our older oxyrincus or Greek manuscripts, rather, don't have that passage in them. So in the war between the Gnostics and the Orthodox, the Orthodox are trying to take over the Gnostic text that they were using. And so the Gnostics definitely used Thomas, even though Thomas doesn't really have Gnosticism in it. It does have a lot of similar things that they believe, like oneness and so forth. And so the Greek, sorry, the Roman scribes from the Orthodox Church, we're probably trying to contaminate Thomas. And so when scholars study it,

they can see the kernel layers of Thomas. And the early kernel gospel is dated between 30 to 50. And then there's these other accretions that are like 50 to 100. And they become less reliable. So it's very complex in scholarship. But the core of Thomas is undeniably an early Nazarene Christian text for sure. That's rad. Which is so great.

Yeah. That's incredible that that gift shows up to us, you know, even this late in the game, especially as it's, you know, never been needed more than now, you know, they've seen in the last like 2,000 years. Have you gotten much into, I might have heard you guys talk about this on your podcast with Edmund on like the great year, you know, the 26,000 year cycles that happen. And obviously, in the law of one, they speak every three great years. There's a harvest.

Procession of the equinox. Yes. Yeah. And so, you know, with that, just thinking about, you know, Christ would have come in Buddha 500 years before pretty much smack dab in the middle of the Caliuga, like in the darkest point on that great year. That's when we get these teachers to show up in different places. And, you know, now potentially coming out of the Caliuga into the energy age or the

Dorpahuga, and there's a lot of evidence for that we see with our technology and everything, but also it's still this grab for power, you know, the let's force, you know, the push for a one world government, you know, technocratic, you know, opener prison system, as I like to call it, you know, that there's that still that drive. because of us coming out of this darkness. I think about that with Sri Yuk de Swar's teachings and just the timing of where we're at in the grand scale of things, you know,

and in this, you know, the wheel that keeps going, you know, and where we're at in the wheel. We're in, we're for sure in what Ra says in the law one, this great planetary transition out of third density into fourth. It makes perfect sense to me, the model that Ra lays out. That has to be what's happening. It's the only model I've seen that really makes sense out of where we're at as a planetary civilization that we're trying to make this transition from the solar plexus chakra to the heart chakra,

from ego to heart-based consciousness, you know. And that's why I think Jesus' gospel is the essential criteria, the curriculum we all need to take to truly get into the heart and live from the heart. That's what fourth density is, right? where your consciousness is no longer dominated by ego-based thinking, but heart-based thinking, where you're including all others in your thoughts, right? So this is another good distinction, right, with service to others, service to self polarities. Ra says the service to others polarity still serves themselves.

It's not like you just forget about yourself and abandon yourself, but you serve yourself at the inclusion of all others, whereas the service to self polarity is you serving yourself at the cost of all others to their detriment. So we truly can serve others when we have a certain degree of love and appreciation for ourself. It's like that's the outpouring from which I can love somebody else. If I hate myself, I have to hate you. There's no way I can love you if I don't love myself.

Yeah, that's something I grappled with early on was hearing somebody say, you can only love someone else as much as you love yourself. And I was like, that's not true. It's while I hated myself, you know, in college. And I'm like, I love this person so much. And it was like, no, no, that is absolutely true. I love that, like, so many teachings from Steiner, you know, are you familiar with Dr. Robert Gilbert who passed away?

Oh, yeah, yeah. Awesome guy, right? And he was a great, you know, carrier of Steiner's medicine and a lot of these different teachings. But the way he broke it down is some schools would teach, you know, from the root chakra up, some would teach from the crown chakra down. The reason, you know, Steiner, a lot of these people wanted to start from the heart and work their way up and down at the same time is because if you mastered this lower Dantien, you might become too aromonic.

You might be too obsessed with the material world. If you mastered the crown, you might be too luciferic. You might be too concerned with what's happening in the spirit world and not here in body. Right. But from the heart, that meeting place extending out from there, that that was the easiest way to guarantee someone would finish their cycle and finish their ability to transcend and get it all. Because that was the most important piece. So that's why they started there. Yeah.

In the middle way. Yep. Exactly. In the middle way. And that's such a cool. I love that Christ, too, Steiner. is the middle way. Yes.

You know? Yeah, between Lucifer and Aramon. It's like, because, you know, when you read Jesus, like, he's very much teaching some rules and restrictions. You know, he's like, if you love me, keep my commandments. The one who has my commandments and keeps them is the one that loves me. Why do you call me Lord, Lord, and not do what I say? I quote that to Christians all the time.

It's like, they say, well, just confess him as Lord, you're good, right? God's going to save you and everything after you die. And it's like, well, but Jesus literally said, not everybody who calls me, Lord. Lord, Lord, will enter my kingdom. Only the one who does the will of my father in heaven does as good works, right, obeying the commandments. So there's a little bit of the arm on in that of like, no, there are rules you have to follow if you want to be on the positive polarity.

Right. If you want to graduate to fourth density positive as the law of one would term it, then there's certain things you cannot do. And another contention I have with Christianity that I teach in my podcast is this whole sort of concession that, well, I can't be righteous because I'm a. sinner. I'm totally depraved. I can just be grateful that Jesus. You have a born evil and I can just be grateful that Jesus died for my sins. And to that I say, well, where did Jesus say that? He never said any such thing. Oh, you're, you can't be righteous. Jesus over and over again admonished his followers

to be righteous and to stop sinning. Like stop sinning. Jesus says in John 858, whoever continues in sin is the slave of sin. So just because you confess me as Lord doesn't mean you're free of sin. But Christianity says you are. All of you confess Jesus, brother, your sins are forgiven. Sorry. Another one that drives me crazy, and I've had it even in post. I was talking about one of my favorite books on Christ is written from Yogananda. Oh, yeah.

On the second coming Christ, I was drawn to that. Amazing. I was like, I want to learn about Christ from a non-Christian guy. Yeah. Someone I respect. And that just popped up in my Amazon. I was like, dude, Yogananda wrote this. Let's go.

And I've loved it. And I'm just chewing on it super slow. I'm only halfway through the first book of two. because it's one in which like I want to live it before I continue with it. You know, like let me eat one and a piece of time. You got to read those kind of books slowly, man. Uh-huh. Damn, what were we just talking about, though?

The Christ path that Yogananda teaches. Yeah, Yogananda. And right before that, though. Not sinning, overcoming sin. Oh, yeah. Well, the Christian thing, right? So, like, you know, this idea that if you just accept Jesus into your heart, that that is the only way.

And if you offer anything else, including the living the way Jesus offered us to live. Yeah. That's not enough unless Jesus Christ is your only Lord and Savior, right? And it's like, dude, that is that is bonkers. So you could do everything Christ asked. Yeah. But if you didn't recognize Christ, if you didn't even know Christ,

I'm talking to different people about that. I was like, what happened to like the village person in Bangladesh or, or fucking Guam who's never heard of Jesus? Yeah. But they live just right in line with. Jesus's teachings. What happens to that person? Well, that's why we need to save them.

That's why we have to spread the word. And it's like, even with two billion Christians in air quotes on the planet, that's a lot of people that aren't going to make it. Oh, yeah, man. That's the best, but just like three-fourths of the planet that's not going to make it. That's a wild thing to think about. Completely, dude. That's the big reductio to Christian theology is that in the Christian universe,

the devil beats God three to one. There's no other way you can slice it. if only Christians go to heaven. And by the way, every Christian denomination virtually says only our denomination will go to heaven. All the other Christians are heretics and going to hell. But let's just pretend they all agree with each other, which they don't. At best, 25% of the world, maybe 20% is Christian in that sense. So the devil sucks 75 to 80% of God's beloved children into eternal hellfire.

And it's like, neener, neater, I got your children. and what kind of universe is that? It's almost like lost on Christians what an evil demonic universe we must live in if what they believe is true. That wonderful Buddhist monks and Gandhi are burning in hell because they didn't confess something that they believe in their brain,

but they lived Jesus' teachings and none of that matters. So why wouldn't Jesus have just come out with it then? You know? Why would he go around over and over espousing righteousness, keep my commandments, love God,

love your neighbor, but by the way, all of it will send you to hell if you don't confess me as Lord. Yeah, that would have been the first teaching. Yeah, too. Like, that would have been primary, right? I think even whether you're talking about, like, what he taught in parable versus what he

taught to the disciples, that's got to be like rule number one. Dude. If that's the, if that's the biggest prerequisite, that's got to be rule number one. It's got to be in everyone's books. It's got to be in everyone's gospel. Every recorded thing, it's got to start there. You'd have to see that over and over again. Before I teach you anything else, you have to hear me out here.

You will burn in hell forever. If you do not confess me as Lord and believe I rose from the dead. It's like, bro, even after Jesus rises from the dead, he doesn't tell people to believe in his resurrection. In Luke 24, the great resurrection scene, Jesus rises from the dead and says, now go into all the nations and preach repentance for the forgiveness of sins. And then he floats up to heaven.

It's like, where's confess me to his Lord and believe in my resurrection in that? It's not there. So you have this totally kooky, man-made, corrupted version of Jesus's teachings and gospel that I really believe the negative polarity. Christians would call it Satan, the devil. I believe the negative polarity used Paul as this kind of linchpin to corrupt Jesus's teachings by drawing all the focus to Paul. And then using Paul's teachings, we get this like escapist gospel.

It's all about going to heaven when you die and Jesus is coming back any day now. And you're just like, where did Jesus teach any of this stuff in his gospel? shouldn't we focus on what he taught? Yeah. If we're Christians. The Ogunanda books called The Second Coming of Christ, The Awakening of Christ Within You, if I remember that correctly. And I just love that.

And the first thing he gets into is like, even if Jesus came back as a man, that would do very little for the planet with 8 billion people. It would do very little. His incarnation was there for a reason. It planted seeds. And depending on you talk to, like Edmund, like he planted a seed in the earth itself

to raise its consciousness. into Christ's consciousness, in Gaia herself took on Christ energy because of him coming here. That doesn't need to happen again. What needs to happen is that we start to elevate our consciousness through the heart. And then from there, you know, hopefully it's whether it's 144,000 or, you know, 1% or 2% of the population, depending on who you're talking to. I think Eckert Tolly talked about that too in a new earth. The flowering of human consciousness can evolve and work that way. Yep.

There's a great, her name is, uh, ch, ch, ch, ch, ch, ch. Damn, I always blank on her. Everybody's going to know this. But Alex Zet had her on the podcast. She works with water. She's taking a lot of the time. Veda Austin. Yes, Vita Austin.

What she does with the frozen water is insane, right? But more importantly, she started mapping that to living things like eggs. Now, as a farmer, this hits me freaking hardcore. And even not as, I'm like, oh, I'm Mr. Joe Farmer out here in Lockhart. Yeah. As a purchaser of quality food and an eater that wants to feed my family the best, this shit, this shit lands. Yeah. All the feedlot chickens.

that have never seen the light of day, that are kept on an artificial fluorescent light and live in hell, right? That are pumped full of the hormones. They're popping out eggs every day. They can barely stand. Some of their legs break, and they're just popping out eggs on a broken leg,

getting those eggs pulled out. Those eggs have the lowest vibrational frequency. It's like in the Japanese scientists, if you were to breathe and speak hate into the water, it would be that discontorted and nasty, right? That's what they see in the egg whites when they freeze the egg whites. Then you take the free range,

healthy hen, like the ones we have that have been out in the sun, eating bugs, having fun, being loved and cared for. And that's a completely different vibration, right? And you can see it in the geometry that the egg has when it's frozen. And so she, geniusly, says, well, how will these affect each other? She puts them in the fridge, one free range and one feedlot egg. And by the morning, when she takes them out to run the test again, now the free range egg has impacted the feedlot egg. And the feedlot egg looks like a free range egg. Yeah. That is fucking mind-blowing.

Morphic resonance. Yes. And then how far does that go? 12 eggs around the one free range. And it changes all 12 eggs to the higher frequency. And in the process of that, the free-range egg even improves upon itself because it has that refracted back to itself now. I was like, dude, this is the game we're in.

That's resonance. This is the game, right? Yep. That's a remarkable, dude. In terms of the Yogananda's, you know, Christ returning in consciousness, I got one for you on that too. Jesus actually, I believe, warned us about Paul, basically. I think Jesus knew somebody's going to come after me that will corrupt my message. And he warned of false prophets. False prophets will come after me. Paul is unquestionably a false prophet. And I don't mean to bash on

Paul a lot. Like, I think he wrote some good stuff. But he also, I think he was being deceived by a demon, by a demiurge. In I think it's 2 Corinthians 12.7, Paul has the famous verse. He says, In order to keep me from being conceded due to the greatness of my revelations, a thorn in the flesh was given to me.

A messenger of Satan sent to torment me. That's direct. Angelos Satanios in Greek. A messenger of Satan sent to torment me, he says. And I pleaded with the Lord three times to remove it from me. And all three times he said, no, my grace is sufficient.

efficient for you. It's like, whoa, dude. He admits that the demons come and that God would not remove it. So Christians, they do all kinds of gymnastics, but, oh, he doesn't mean a demon. He means a headache, you know, or something like that. And it's like, no, Satanios Angeloos is as direct as you could possibly say a demon, right, in Greek. And look at all these red flags, bro. Do we see Jesus not, well, first of all, do we see Jesus giving people demons in the Gospels? Paul says Jesus gave him the demon. He says, in order to keep me from being prideful, a messenger of Satan was given to me. A thorn in the flesh was given to me by the Lord. Where do we see Jesus giving people demons? Jesus cast out demons. And then when Paul asks Jesus to cast the demon out of him,

he says, no, three times. My grace is enough for you. Uh, what? That doesn't add up. Jesus said in the gospel, remember when Jesus is accused of having a demon? by the Pharisees. They're like, oh, this guy, he's teaching all this truth. Let's gaslight him a little bit. You've got a demon. You're speaking from the devil. And he says, if I cast out demons, how can I have a demon?

He says, a man cannot serve two masters. If Satan drives out Satan, then his kingdom is divided against itself. He says, but if I cast out demons by the finger of God, then surely the kingdom has come upon you. So, Jesus, Paul's private Jesus that he was seeing in his private visions, refuses to cast a demon out of him because Satan can't drive out Satan. Hello?

So Jesus says, when the Son of Man returns, Son of Man, by the way, is an incredibly deep ontological term about, it's a teleological term, actually, that the Nazarenes preserve for us that Son of man basically means the divine idea of man,

God's ultimate idea of man at our most actualized form, right? So Jesus was claiming that for himself when he referred to himself as the Son of Man, he was referring beyond his personhood. He's like, I'm an incarnation of the divine idea of man, the son of man, right? So he says, when the Son of Man returns, when the principle of Christ returns,

he says, no one will say, oh, look, I see him out in the wilderness. He says, if anyone says they've seen Christ in the wilderness, do not believe them. If they say, I see him, I've met him in the inner rooms, do not believe them. For when the Son of Man returns, it will be like lightning flashing from the east to the West, which is an analogy to say, everyone will see it at once. It will be a unified return where

everyone has it at the same time. So what does Paul claim where he sees Jesus? In Acts chapter 9, he tells the story three times, 9, 22, and 26 in the book of Acts. He says he saw Jesus, he encountered Jesus in the wilderness on the road to Damascus. He says he's knocked off his horse, you know the whole story. And then he says, he claims numerous private visions of Jesus, but one of them while he's meditating in the inner room of the temple. And Jesus literally says, if anyone says they've seen me in an inner room, don't believe them. And then guess what? Guess what Paul's private Jesus says to Paul in that encounter?

He says, don't go to my disciples and tell them about me because they won't believe you. I'm not making this shit up, dude. This is in the Bible, bro. Wow. This is in the New Testament. So Jesus warned us about Paul, in my opinion, no less than seven times. Jesus also says, beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and the Herodians. And what does Paul claim to be?

Paul brags about being a Pharisee all through his epistles. And he's a Herodian as well. He writes in one of his letters, please greet my Herodian kinsman when he's naming somebody. So Paul is a Pharisee and a Herodian. Jesus said, beware of Pharisees and Herodians. And anyone who says they've seen me in the desert, Paul just check, check, check, check.

So it's the greatest story never told, in my opinion. that Christianity was usurped by a false teacher who came after him. And there's no question about this when you go to a church today, bro. Just count how many times they quote Paul, the pastor. I mean, 90% of sermons, if not 95, that you hear in any church in America are going to be based on one of Paul's letters. And very rarely will you ever hear sermons actually based on what Jesus taught about salvation. I would love break it down because you're so well studied in this,

not just from an upbringing, but obviously like this is your life. And I love that because, like, at a certain point when I was getting into plant medicines, the spiritual game became far more important than fighting. It was just like, oh, that was really cool. But there's this whole other fucking world here that it like makes sense now. And it's like, oh, that's fighting was no longer the most important thing in my life. And I think it has to be if you're going to compete at that level. It can't be second most. It can't be third most.

It can't be anywhere down the list. It's got to be number one. Yeah. But like seeing that. was just like, wow, like all this is here. And yet, you know, your, I've, anywhere I get led to, like, you know, whether it's the Oganana book, like I'm, I'm a lifelong seeker. And I feel like when you step into this path, synchronicity's happen and doorways are

open and you start to find new things, whether that's the medicine path, meditation, whatever. But these things start to come to you and it starts to add value. Yeah. To where you're at. You've talked a lot about, you know, Jesus's direct teachings. What are your favorite books or things, resources for people? to grab onto where they could be like, all right, now I'm going to get a solid teaching here,

and I don't have to worry about, you know, is this fucked up and muddled stuff from somebody else? Oh, yeah. It's a great question, man. I mean, I would say for sure the gospel of Thomas. I mean, even the synoptic gospels are great. Like, I think the gospels we have, thankfully, thank you to the universe, thank you to God. They did preserve a lot of Jesus's true teachings. I think that they're a little polished and changed a bit. But there's no question, like, you can't. You can't. You can't read these parables and think that some guy made these up. It's like, this is spiritual genius at its highest form, these teachings. And even the way that he comes back to the Pharisees and like, this was a real spiritual genius that lived and his teachings definitely got preserved.

Nobody could make this shit up, you know. So the Gospels are great as well, but people ask me this all the time. Like, what should I read then if Christianity has been corrupted? I say, just stick to the synoptic gospels. And I would say gospel of Thomas for sure. sure if you want to get a real good look at the historical Jesus. But then there's also some forgotten Nazarene texts. One of them is the Clementine recognitions and homilies. There's a few, the core text, kind of like Thomas, there's like a kernel text,

and then there's all these accretions added later. But the core texts of the Clementines date to the first century by most Clementine scholars. That's the ascents of James and the travels of Peter. and they preserve early Nazarene philosophy and what they taught and believed. And dude, it's some high level shit, man. Especially like their demonology,

the way they understood demons and negative entities and possession, extremely high level. And then even things like the Son of Man, they believe that the Christ was not... A big difference is that the Nazarens, the first disciples of Jesus, did not believe that he was like God who came down from heaven.

They believed he was the Messiah. the Davidic Messiah whom Moses foretold, right? And he fulfilled the scriptures, and he came to show us the way to God, not to point to himself and say, I'm God, worship me, confess me. So they believe that the Christ is actually reincarnated all throughout history and time, going back to a character named Melchizadec in the Old Testament. Are you familiar? Explain this, though.

I've heard Paul Selig talk about Malkisadec is like his inner thing. And Yoganada actually talks about that. Christ principle coming through, you know, Buddha, Babaji, you know, like so many, right? Laosu and Krishna itself, you know, like that is the Christ principle showing up with different names and different formats at different times and spaces. Yes. That's super resonant if you think about, you know, the length of time that it wouldn't just be a one and done.

It's not just one guy. A lot more sense to me. Yeah, and if you understand the teleology of Christ, which is the divine idea, it's the ultimate picture of what God intends for man to be, right? then the Christ, you know, Buddha, Babaji, Krishna, Christ, all these figures, they have to be the same Christ spirit, basically, because they all embodied that ultimate vision of man. So the Nazarenes believed that about Jesus, that Christ was a reincarnating principle that comes back to help humanity throughout time. Which it's like, doesn't that make the Christ even bigger and better? Why wouldn't we want to believe that, you know?

Yeah. Even John 1, in the beginning was the Lord. logos, the logos was with God. The logos became flesh and dwelt among us. I think the early, I believe that Gnostics wrote the gospel of John, by the way. I believe John is a Gnostic gospel. And I think that they understood this about Christ. The logos was that reincarnating principle. But Melchizadec, I think, is the first biblical character, maybe Enoch, Melchizadec somewhere around there, that was the Christ. And Melchizedek in Hebrew means the king of righteousness. And in the book of Hebrews, which is by an anonymous author, it's not written by Paul,

it's a really amazing text. There's some really good stuff in it. But it says that Jesus was a priest in the order of Melchizedek, which I think is an ancient Semitic way of saying he was a reincarnation of Melchizedek. And even in the New Testament Gospels, dude, the belief in reincarnation was widespread in Judaism in his day. This is another thing that's been lost from Christian tradition. Jesus has asked directly, well, he says, who do people say that I am?

And they say, Lord, some people say that you are Elijah. some people say that you are Jeremiah or one of the prophets. And he says, great, but who do you say that I am? Well, you are the son of the living God, the Christ, right? That reincarnating principle. Jesus says, blessed are you, Peter, for flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my father who's in heaven, which means this was a spiritual realization you've had. You've seen through my form.

You understand what I really am is that Christ principle, the son of man, the divine idea, right? So this is like amazing philosophy that should be taught in. Christianity today that has been lost because of this Greco-Roman tradition. And it's like, we got to bring this stuff back, man. This is like the most cutting-edge shit that's that there is. Yeah, I love that. And it's still grounded in principles of right here and right now. My wife grew up really Christian and, you know, in whatever that means, you know, in her own way. And we, you know, went on the plant medicine path together and got into Eckart Tolley and a whole bunch of other things and then have been drawn back in many ways to the teachings of Jesus. And I just feel

like there's there you can get lost in the sauce of new age and thankfully that's something she's been an anchor for me to be like hey if it doesn't make right now important it's not true yeah right if it if it's it'll be better then or i'll be happy when or there's this gift at the end of the road and the gift isn't right now that's not it and so we've really been drawn to like native american wisdom that that talked and spoke about how important the living earth is how important you know thinking of neighbor right what is the neighbor well that's all my my relations. That's everything I'm related to. Yeah. And we're all related, right? The trees, these plants right here in the office, like I'm related to all of it. How do I treat those plants?

How do I treat, you know, the air? How do I treat anything that I'm involved with and engaged with and the importance of that while we're here in flesh? Yeah, man. So she's been a great anchor for me. Oh, that's powerful. I was jamming with, I forget his name now, but the chief of the Lakota tribe that's here. Oh, the guy was here. Yes. Chief Bearcross. Yes, Bearcross. He's phenomenal, dude. He's awesome, man. Yeah, we were jamming after the smoke lodge on the Christ principle. And he was showing me how his Native American tradition sees the Christ. And it was really, really epic conversation.

And I'm like, yeah, see, these guys get what Jesus was saying, like better than Orthodox Christians do. Because it's just had so much man-made nonsense woven into it. And I think that this is a Jesus that, like, everyone can get excited about. That's the one unique thing about Jesus to me is like, no matter where you go, like Muslims love Jesus. Buddhists love Hindus love Jesus like everybody loves Jesus even atheists are like I think it was a great guy even if he wasn't God he's a good guy

so why can't we agree on what he taught if we all think he's you know he's some kind of example of what God wants from us at the very least we can all agree on that and this is the Jesus that like everyone but Orthodox Christianity says yep that's right you know he came to show us the way to God not to point to himself he came to say

love your neighbor as yourself it's about right here right now his gospel was what scholars call a participatory eschatology. Eschatology is like the study of the end times, apocalypse and all that. Jesus' eschatology was a participatory one, which means the end times come when we make it come by bringing the kingdom of heaven to earth. And end times meaning like the end of this epoch and the beginning of the new age of humanity,

of moving into what we could call an enlightened civilization, or fourth density civilization. In Thomas Jesus says, the kingdom of heaven is within you and outside of you. It's already spread out across the earth, but men are unaware of it. So he was teaching us how to become aware of the kingdom of heaven by what, loving each other?

The kingdom is the love we feel for each other, right? God is the frequency that binds us together. It's the love we feel. And so if you have not love, you're not my disciple. That was his whole gospel. I love that. It's fire. dude. That is fire, brother. It's epic shit, man. Well, listen, tell me, you have the Jesus Way podcast? Yeah.

And how many episodes have you guys done? We've been out for a while, yeah? Like 40. Okay, cool. Yeah, still pretty new. But that's good, though. Rocking and rolling. We are. Who have you had on there that you really appreciated, you know, as a guest for people to check out? Because I'll link to that in the show notes as well. Yeah, I mean, Sean O'Leare, for sure, Edmund Knighton. We've had a couple of our good scholar friends on Dr. James Tabor's really amazing. I've learned a lot from him. Dr. Ross Nichols. We've had, we're having Samuel Leon next week.

Are you familiar with his work yet? He's really amazing. He's into like unlocking the DNA strands, the human genome and, you know, all that kind of gene keys related stuff. So, yeah, we've got, we're getting Veda Austin on as well. We've got some good guests lined up. That's super cool, brother. Yeah.

And then do you teach anything outside of the podcast? Like, what do you do? Do you have like courses or anything for people who want to get into this and like free themselves? in fact I do. I started a kind of online academy called 4D University in 2022 and that was my attempt to package all of the best teachings I've come across and the way that I understand how we make this transition from third to fourth density. So it's literally fourth density university. It's like if you take these courses, you're going to graduate to fourth density by the end of your lifetime. And it's just all about how to live. from heart-based consciousness. So it's a lot of course and miracles related teachings about your perception and understanding that God is the only acting power in the universe, understanding that we're all one, and we have to live out that oneness through our perception and our actions.

So it's really grounded spiritual teachings in the form of three programs that I offer. It's about a 10 or 11 month journey. And then I also teach a year-long course on a course in miracles where we do the daily lessons. I think ACIM is very much like a fourth density handbook. So yeah, you can check it out at 40 University.com. Dude, it's been a blast having you. We'll do it again, brother. Thank you so much.

Can't wait, man. Thank you. Oh, that was fire.