Kyle Kingsbury Podcast - #71 Tim Corcoran

Episode Date: January 28, 2019

Tim Corcoran is the founder of The Twin Eagles Wilderness School, where he shares teachings that connect people with the Earth, community, family, and self. He is also the creator of Purpose Mountain, where he offers nature-based purpose guidance and healing facilitation to help people who have a love for nature discover their authentic purpose in this life, including deep spiritual fulfillment and a financially rewarding career. His approach weaves together the best of traditional earth-based wisdom with a modern understanding of the human psyche to help people move past resistance, blocks, and fear to find and live their soul’s purpose. He drops by to share some of his experiences and thoughts about the relationship every human being has with nature that seems to be missing in today’s world. Connect with Tim: Twin Eagles School | https://bit.ly/2sNQyVc Purpose Mountain | https://bit.ly/2G0a8FJ Facebook | https://bit.ly/2TT9mOt Twitter |https://bit.ly/2SaP4Ta Connect with Kyle Kingsbury on: Twitter | https://bit.ly/2DrhtKn Instagram | https://bit.ly/2DxeDrk Get 10% off at Onnit by going to https://www.onnit.com/podcast/ Connect with Onnit on: Twitter | https://twitter.com/Onnit       Instagram | https://bit.ly/2NUE7DW Subscribe to Human Optimization Hour  Itunes | https://apple.co/2P0GEJu Stitcher | https://bit.ly/2DzUSyp Spotify | https://spoti.fi/2ybfVTY

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flavors, snickerdoodle, salted almond, creamy peanut, and chocolate hazelnut, which is my absolute favorite. Learn more at onnit.com slash fatbutters. And as always, 10% off, onnit.com slash podcast. All right, guys, we've got Tim Corcoran on the show today as a guy that I heard of probably two or three years ago from Ben Greenfield. He's been a guest on Greenfield's podcast and others. He runs wilderness camps that reconnect people to nature. And he does a variety of them.

He has survival courses where you learn how to make fire. He has foraging and different classes you can take. He does father-son outings. He has adult only. He has children only based out of Idaho. And we just go down the rabbit hole of how he got into being a nature man and what are the things that he teaches? What are some of the practices? What has been lost in society today that we can reinstill in modern culture to make sure that we're tapping into a deeper part of ourselves and our nature? And man, it's a good one. So thanks for listening and let us know what you think. Hit me up on the gram, hit me up on the gram, hit me up on Twitter at Kingsbill. Here we are, Tim Corcoran. And this has been something that even though it was just thrust right in front of me a week ago, that we'd be podcasting together. Thanks to our buddy Aubrey, who just had you on his show as

well. I had heard about you a couple of years ago from our buddy Ben Greenfield. And he was telling me, this is something you got to do with your son. It's an amazing experience. We were actually living in Vegas, so not that far from Idaho, but you've been on my mind because not a lot of people do what you do. So we're going to dive into, I mean, obviously you covered quite a bit with Aubrey and we're going to branch off of that and cover some more of what you're into. But I do want to get your background just in case our listeners haven't heard you on Aubrey's and we can dive in from there. Great. Well, it's great to be here, Kyle. Thanks for having me. Yeah. So I'm 44. I grew up in the 80s in the Midwest, actually, in Indiana, and just a small town, Midwestern boy. And from the very beginning, I had a great love for nature,

right. Um, that was always been in my heart. Um, but I didn't have mentors growing up. I didn't have anybody to, you know, teach me wilderness survival skills or how to track wild animals. Um, so it was mostly just, uh, you know, whatever adventures or trouble I got myself into. Um, so when I was, um, let's see, when I wrapped up college, I played by the rules, I had gotten good grades, I had done what I was supposed to do. And I was really like, you know what? This life is mine. I want to make it my own. I'm going to follow my heart. So I actually went and drove, literally the day I graduated, I drove, I don't know what it was, 42 hours or something nonstop, ridiculous, out to the Navajo Indian Reservation where I knew one person. And I just had this feeling in my heart like, you know what, I want to learn what these first people of our continent here know.

And I didn't know how it was going to go or who I would meet, but it was in my heart. So I wound up spending a couple of years there. And although it was interesting, Kyle, I didn't discover, you know, I was really naive at the time, right? So I thought I was going to find people living in teepees and buffalo. Little did I even know that traditionally, you know, teepees weren't even part of the Navajo culture, nor did Buffalo even live there. But what I found was really what I learned was about myself, right? And I was able to connect with these people. And though the old skills weren't really being practiced, what was being practiced was a much more heart-centered way of life, which I really resonated with. So after that, it was just about a year later, a buddy from college had sent me a book written

by Tom Brown Jr., who's a famous survivalist and tracker and runs a big tracking and survival school out in New Jersey, of all places. And I felt called to it. So I went. And I was, what, 23 at the time. And that week, I learned about making fire by rubbing sticks together and building natural shelters from dead branches and leaves and needles. Learned about plants that you can eat and which ones are medicinal. I learned about which ones are poisonous. I learned how to track wild animals and also the spirituality that the natural world offers us. And I was really just lit on fire. Maybe for the first time since I was maybe just a little boy,

I just felt so alive, right? That feeling of just being on track with my life and my passions. And I was like, I don't know how, but this is what I want to do. And I was really curious. I'm like, well, how's it going to work? Is somebody going to pay me to track wild animals? How's this going to go? And then about midway through the week, it dawned on me. I was like, oh, this has been super already. Even within a few days, I could see the positive impact it was having on me. And I was like, this is super important in our world. I'm going to learn this stuff better than I've ever learned anything. And I'm going to share it. I'm going to teach it.

And that was kind of the first conscious moment of a seed being planted in terms of the nature connection work that I do. And as a young man at the time, I thought it was really strange that for me just to live, right, that I needed to depend on grocery stores and telecommunication systems and these big giant houses and buildings. I didn't really know anything about buildings. Where does my meat come from? Exactly, right? All that shit. Yeah.

And so as a 20-something guy, I'm like stepping into that archetype of provider and I'm really wanting to know, you know, can I make it? Could I make it if it came down to it? Not that, you know, I want to move back to the Stone Age, but there's something special about, you know, providing for oneself. So that took me on a journey. I wound up doing several courses there. I got involved in a wilderness school getting started up in Vermont. And I practiced these skills. I learned them. And I put a massive amount of energy into this. You know, it is, as you said, it's a lost art. It's not something that's common today. But there are pockets. And so, right, like fire making, for example, the old school fire making method is called the bow and drill. And what you do is you take two pieces of wood and you rub them together and you create a little glowing ember, like a little red coal. And then

you take that ember and you put it in what's called the tinder bundle and blow on it. And that passes on to the tinder and then it erupts into a flame. Well, easier said than done, right? I mean, I learned this in a week, but then to actually gain proficiency, it was like eight months worth of practice. And so what I did was my wife and I said, okay, we moved into this little cabin in Vermont, moved in in the fall. And I said, all right, no fire. The only source of heat was a wood stove. So all right, no fires unless they're lit by the bow and drill.

I'll tell you what, we had like two really, really cold months. And then I got damn good at that bow and drill. And so it was like that. You know, that next spring, I said, I want to learn every plant I can that I see that flowers. That's the best time to learn the wild plants is when their flowers come up. So I said, every single new one I see, I'm going to learn it. And I'm going to journal it down and integrate that. I went out and, yeah, I built shelters in the woods and slept in them and had a lot of cold nights.

And then eventually figured out how all that came together. And in the end, what that all came to a climax on was I put myself out on a four-day, what I call a survival quest, where you go out with nothing. I didn't even have a knife, right? Now, I had the clothes on my back and I had some emergency gear, but it was- It wasn't naked and afraid, but it was pretty much, it was damn close. It was pretty close, pretty much as close as you can get. And so four days in the Vermont woods, right? And the goal was, okay, can I make shelter, keep myself warm? Can I make fire for light, for warmth, for cooking?

Can I get clean water? That's a huge one. And then food. Food is like last on the priority list as much as we all love it. You know, it's the last priority. That's certainly in a four-day span. But water will get you. Oh, yeah. Water is going to get you there really quickly.

Exactly. Yeah. So that was an amazing adventure, man. What age was that when you did your four-day? So I was like 20. Well, you know what it was? It was, I went out, if you can believe it, on September 11th, 2001. Oh, wow. Literally, 9-1-1. So I was born in 74, so I was 27, I guess. And I know it's crazy. I went out that morning and I heard jets flying over because I wasn't that far from New York City. Like, what in the hell are these fighter jets flying over the woods for, right? I had no idea what was going on. Anyway, so I had my four days and it was amazing, right?

I mean, I was in this beautiful birch, Eastern hardwood forest. And I built this bomber shelter with birch bark flap doors and with like a double shingled roof. And- High construction. Yeah, exactly, right?

Which was pretty sweet because it wound up raining on me and it rained, I don't know, for almost a full day. And I was, but you know what. Yeah, exactly. Right. Uh, which was pretty sweet. Cause it wound up raining on me and it rained, I don't know, for almost a full day. And I was, but you know, I stayed in that shelter, stayed warm and dry the whole time. Um, I, I, I knew my trees, right. Cause you gotta know you have to be a little bit of a naturalist to be a survivalist, right? It's not enough to just know that you can rub sticks together. You have to know which species of tree and then you need to know how to identify those trees. So I was able to figure all that out and get some willow wood and put a kit together, a bow and drill kit together. Well,

one of the issues I had was that I was practiced when using modern rope, right? Like paracord. But I was not so practiced with primitive rope. Now, primitive rope, this is what we're talking about, like a root from the ground. Or maybe if you're lucky, you can find some plants that are really fibrous and you can twist together some cordage. So the problem I had was that my rope on my bow and drill kit kept snapping when I went to make fire. And this went on and on for days. Now, this is a big deal because for water, to get clean water, you've got to purify it. And to purify water, you've got to boil it. So you got to have fire. So fire really comes before water, although water is the true need, right? So here I am,

I'm going on like 24 hours, no water. Now, there's a creek right next to me and I could take the risk, right? But the risk is I drink from that creek. If it's got, say, Giardia from a beaver or something, that's going to be problematic, right? I may be taken out completely. So I said, all right, I'm not going to take the risk. So I work, work, work on my fire. After close to, I don't know, a day and a half or so, I finally, that whole second day, I spent hours and hours working on twisting together the perfect rope, right, from the spruce roots that I found. And after, I don't know how long, you know, hours trying and failing because it would keep breaking. Then I would go back and twist it back together. Finally, on my last ditch effort, I had this one tiny little root left.

I was super frustrated right because i put all this energy into it and i was like i knew at this point if i don't get this fire like it's kind of it and my big you know quest is going to be prematurely over which was super going to be super disheartening but i said all right one last shot i'm not going to let this go until it's all over so i had one tiny root Which is like, I'd already busted through ropes that were five times as thick. And I got going on this thing. And you start spinning, and then it starts to smoke a little bit. And when it's smoking, then the wood, the friction there will produce dust from the wood.

And that dust will get dark, brown, and then black. And then it's going. So it's going like that. It's smoking, and it's turning brown. It's almost about to turn black. And pop string breaks the root breaks spindle goes flying i'm just like shit you know i'm so frustrated uh it's it's almost getting dark at this point i just storm off right and i'm just like god dang i i was like this is it right it's over and then i just kind of stop finally and i I smell, what is that? I'm like,

that smells like that smoke. And I looked down and sure enough, I hadn't realized it, but I had gotten the ember and I'm just like, I'm freaking out. I'm like, oh my God, what? No way. And so I'm like looking for the tinder bundle. I hadn't even thought about that. I've been trying for so long. I get it out. I put it in there, you know, I'm blowing on this. And I'll tell you what, to make fire by friction, I mean, just as the physical art of it, it's a beautiful thing. And I think it's something every human being should do at least once. You kind of feel like, what was the old movie, Castaway with Tom Hanks, right? And you're like, me, fire, right? I mean, it's this whole primal

experience. So I'm blowing on this and sure, there it goes, it erupts. Well, I had a fireplace, a fire ring set up. And because I was so, you know, wanting for this to be successful, I piled up big mounds of birch bark. Well, birch bark's got these oils in it that are like pretty much like gasoline. So you light this stuff. I mean, you can literally dunk it in water and pull it out and light it and it's fine. So I had this mountain of birch bark. I light this stuff up, man, the flames go 15 feet. I was so stoked. I mean, I had made fire before, but not in that context. And I'll tell you what, I had, it literally felt like, I felt like the first human being ever on planet earth to make fire. I wound up staying up that whole night and just like having a party out there in the woods.

Right. And, uh, and so, you know, it's a powerful thing because after that experience, after the four days, I was sitting on this big granite boulder and I was kind of looking back at the landscape and I was like looking at the trees that had given me shelter. I was looking at the others that had brought my fire, noticing the plants that I'd been eating, looking at the creek that had given me water. And I just had this, I mean, it was a spiritual moment. I don't know how else to explain it, of realizing this landscape, the separation between me and the land was gone.

It was just gone. And I'd felt gratitude in my life before, but I'd never felt so thankful for anything than I felt for that place, those specific trees, that creek, that mountainside right there in Southern Vermont. And I think I really learned what gratitude was in that moment. And I think I really learned what that spiritual oneness really was in that moment. Yeah. You touched on a huge piece there that I want to talk about for a second, that this level of connectedness that we see is slowly drifting away or actually rapidly drifting away now with social media and how often we communicate with someone face-to-face without a cell phone in our hand and actually engage in a conversation like

podcasting is without a doubt one of the best ways to have a great conversation. Not everyone has podcasting equipment and all that and guests to have on, but this idea that we're separate from nature is total bullshit. Oh my God. That man is created differently. that we're separate from nature is total bullshit. Oh, my God. That man is created differently. We're fucking all in it together. We are a part of it. We're embedded in it, not separate, completely connected to it. And I think that's such a critical piece that we're missing in life. When we think about being alone or being separate from anything, even separate from God, all those things, right?

Like the separation of God as the white bearded judge, you know, versus like it is all, right? It is in the everything, you know? All is of or nothing is, right? Paul Selig. So I think when you have that realization, it touches you in a way that nothing else really can. Yeah. You know? Yeah.

And it's huge because, and one of the reasons I'm such a proponent of learning even the basics of survival, I see it, Kyle, I really see it as an essential developmental need for us as human beings, right? Just like if we send our kids to school, we expect they're going to learn math. Now, come on. We've all got calculators, man. We've got computers. Why does anyone going to learn math. Now, come on. We've all got calculators, man. We've got computers. Why does anyone need to learn math when we have computers?

Well, we've established as a society that that's a core skill. It's a core competency that every human being should know how to do. It's part of our roots, right? It's the basics of how the mind works. Similarly, yes, we have fancy buildings and grocery stores and everything else. But to have a relationship with the earth on which we live, right? I'm not talking about Mars. I'm not talking about the moon.

I'm talking about our planet, our home. To have a relationship right here, right now, and with those basic things, I think is absolutely essential. You know, absolutely essential. And so absolutely essential, you know, absolutely essential. And so, yeah, you know, that's a huge part. That's been a huge part of my work. And it starts because when you do that, then that's where that deep connection comes from, right? So you're pretty much addicted at this point.

After your four-day, you've done some training. Oh, yeah, at this point in the story. Now you put it to use. You finish your four-day, and you're hooked. Yeah, man, at this point. And I'm super proud of myself, right? I mean, this is a significant accomplishment. This was one, two years of training.

I mean, and I gave it everything I had. I was putting in, I don't know, 70, 80-hour weeks. Every waking moment, I was, and I, I gave it everything I had. I was putting in, I don't know, 70, 80 hour weeks, every waking moment I was, I was pouring myself into this. Um, so this, but this was still early on in my journey. This is only about a year into my journey. So I wound up spending five years, um, um, in Vermont with a school that was, that was going and learning these skills. Yes.

But also learning the skill of mentoring, right? Which is, I really, nature-based mentoring. So an earth-based approach to helping other people learn, which is very different from modern, kind of classic, traditional, modern schooling that's compulsory. And whether you like it or not, when that bell rings, you're going to learn.

You know, not about what's in your heart, man, what do you care about? Not about, right, like as a mentor, my work is to inspire somebody else, right? So that they naturally have curiosity and even passion to want to learn. And what happens when you have a human being who wants to do something genuinely?

Well, they're gonna do it, right? This is common sense. And yet, as a society, we haven't taken that approach to education. So the earth-based approach is pretty basic, you know, but it's all about inspiring. So I learned how to do that. I learned how to do that with kids. I learned how to do that with teens. I learned how to do it with other adults. And I put, you know, my wife and I both, Janine and I, we both put five years in as apprentices, starting off just as students and then volunteers and then apprentices and then instructors and then lead instructors

until we were running our own programs. And after five years of that, I developed enough of a skill set, both with the skills themselves, right? Wilderness survival, naturalist skills, animal tracking, as well as the mentoring process itself, which that's a whole other separate skill set. How you teach it. There's a lot of great players and most people that watch sports understand this. Yes. You can be a great player, but it doesn't make you a great coach. Oh, yeah. Like that's for sure.

Two separate skill sets. You can know your shit inside and out, but if you don't communicate that in a way that resonates with people, it doesn't land. Yeah, exactly. So after five years, you know, we were ready to really go live the dream. You know, that dream, I realized just in that first three days into it at that first class I took in, uh, that was 99, you know, five years in after pouring everything I had into it, both physically and spiritually, right? Because along the way, I did two vision quests sitting out in the woods for four days, no food, no water. Well, I did have water, but I was fasting

with the single intention, why am I here? What's my purpose? You know, Because I always felt that as much as I wanted to learn these skills and have a competency for my own needs directly with the earth, I also wanted to know, why am I here? What's my reason for existence? Did you get that from working with the Navajo? Partially. So in the indigenous communities, the value on purpose and vision is higher, generally speaking. But what we have to recognize is those are communities that have been decimated, of course, by cultural trauma and genocide and all kinds of madness, you know, the colonial mindset and system. So, um, so in part, yes. Um, but also where I got it was, um, uh, was from the Lakota. I, I had, uh, two different Lakota mentors. And so, you know, a part of it, Kyle was really piecing it together. I didn't get everything from one place. It was always a process of piecing it together. That was within one of the other amazing opportunities I had, though. Through the Wilderness School Network, I was able to connect

with indigenous mentors, teachers, Native American elders, and really forge my own personal relationships with those people that were then lasting far beyond that initial time. So, you know, after all that, five years in, you know, cause I, I did, I spent, I spent my time in the woods just with that single question on the vision quest, who, who am I really? Why am I here? And, and that was the big healing journey. That was the big spiritual journey and realizing that I, you know, that I was feeling called and guided to get married, to be a father, and to pass on this deeper connection to nature. Not just to teach people how to survive in the woods, but to teach people about their place in life, their spiritual place, their physical place,

right? To have that deeper connection. Because I saw what it did for me. The truth was, I had really low self-esteem as a boy, as a young man. It was hard and I had a lot of fear going on. I was always trying to prove myself. And what I found in nature more than anything, Kyle, was healing, right? That was a place I was able to go and let that and release that. And of course, all the old indigenous ceremonial practices, the sweat lodge, the vision quest, those were huge healing processes as well for me to let that go. And so in a way, I feel like I got my life back from this connection with nature. And I wasn't the only one. I mean, I had peers who were just like,

I mean, I saw transformation happen time and again in myself and others. And I was like, this is huge. If there was something worth doing in this world, this is truly helping people. Not to say it's the only thing. Clearly, there's a lot that does. But I was on fire, man. And I was just like, this is it. So yeah, after five years, my wife and I packed it up. We hit the road. We didn't know where we were going. We packed everything into, I have like an old 93 Toyota four-wheel drive pickup, you know. And we toured the country. We spent a whole summer touring the country.

We visited family. We visited friends. We visited existing wilderness schools with that one big question. Where's our place? Like the actual physical place. And, you know, Idaho, I didn't even know, where's that? It wasn't even on the map, right? Is that near Iowa or what? But we were going through Glacier National Park and camping out in the backwoods. And it was crazy synchronicity. We bumped into an old friend in the backwoods of Glacier National

Park, like what are the chances? And we told him what we were up to. And he says, oh, you ought to check out this little town called Sandpoint, Idaho. And so we're like, okay, cool. And we went there. And I don't know if you've ever been up there, but it's a beautiful country, kind of a mix between the Pacific Northwest, like Seattle, Portland, the big trees and green mossy landscapes and the dry

Rocky mountain, you know, tall Ponderosa pines. Um, with so big mountains, big lakes, um, one of the deepest lakes I think in the country, like Ponderay. And, uh, and there's this big bridge over, over the, over Lake Ponderay as you drive into Sandpoint and we're coming in, man, it's a, it's a late September afternoon. Thunderstorm had just rolled through. It's sunset, actually. Yeah, it's a little after afternoon. And no kidding, I'm not making this up. A rainbow appears, right? And the end of the rainbow, literally, it's a storybook, is on the little town of Sandpoint. And the angels sang, you know? I was just like, what? But no, the angels didn't actually sing, although I thought I could hear them.

But I had that feeling in my heart, like, oh, this is, I'm coming home. Yeah. And yeah, so we met people and it wound up being an amazing community. And we put our roots down, you know, and I wound up getting married. My wife and I had a couple of kids. We started our school, Twin Eagles Wilderness School, at that point. That was 2005. We moved there in 2004 and started the school in 2005. And, you know, it was tough that first year because, you know, for those five years I'd done my training, the other piece that was really significant that I didn't mention is the power of

community. And I'm sure, well, I know you know about this, right? What happens to us when we surround ourselves by our people with shared values, shared passions? We can really grow and we're stronger than when we are on our own. So I had had that, right? We had a whole community of kids and teens and peers and parents and families and elders, all centered around the value of nature back in Vermont. And now I'm going out to recreate this from scratch, right? And my mentors, they said, you know, Tim, for the first year, what we recommend is that you just don't start anything,

that you just watch, you observe, you spend your time being in awareness, which is a huge teaching right there. Yeah. You know, starting with awareness. And so I did, um, being the good student that I am. Uh, and that was one of the toughest years of my life, Kyle, because I had felt what it was like to have a shared community around, around nature and mentoring. And now, uh, I, I didn't have that and I couldn't have it for at least a year. And it was tough, man. It was a tough year. How did that year look? Like, was it a lot of time in solitude out in nature or were you, you know, trying to get a sense of the community and who could possibly fit into this rebuilding of what you're trying to accomplish?

Well, exactly. Yes to all of that. So one of the things we did is I got married, which was big. That takes up some of your time. Yes, it does. We went to Kauai, had a beautiful Kauai, Hawaiian honeymoon. But yeah, so it was about, you know, for me, it was about transferring knowledge of place, right? Like, okay, Vermont to Idaho, there's different kinds of trees, plants, animals. So there's definitely some crossover and there's a lot of differences too. So just from a naturalist perspective, I had to transfer my knowledge and learn this new place. And then from the community perspective, yeah, I had to get a sense of the community before jumping in. Because to start a wilderness school of that nature, it's a community effort, right? It's going to and it has attracted people and brought people together. They don't, especially if they're at all into spirituality or ceremonial practices, they would never jump right in to a ceremony, say, in that new place without permission and blessings and sanctioning, ideally from an indigenous person of that place where they're visiting, right? Like, there's a recognition that the place itself has a power and that we can work in unison with that, but we're, we need to kind of humble

ourselves to that. Right. Um, just like if I was to go to your home, you know, I wouldn't just jump in and I don't know. You're not going to kick open the door and be like, Hey, where's dinner? Right. Exactly. So there's, there's, there's a series of protocols, right. Of honoring place. And that's what that, that, what that first year was. So yeah, I was getting to know people. And interestingly enough, even honestly, by six months in, we had met so many people and they were chomping at the bit. They're like, well, when are you going to get things started? We want to do it. Can we start tomorrow? And we're like, well, we made a promise that we're going to wait a year. So by the time that year passed, that, that year passed, we had a lot of interest had come together.

And, and so we started up, you know, we started a small apprenticeship. We had two apprentices, two adult apprentices that we're kind of trading, mentoring them in the skills and teaching them to be a nature-based mentors in exchange for them helping us at our programs. We started a couple of programs that first year, I don't know. I think the first program had like 12 or 13 kids, a little homeschool group. And, you know, I mean, it's, that was, well, that was 2005. So it was what, 13, 14 years later, we're serving thousands of youth adults year round, you know? And, and, and the whole while though, it's, it's always been about one relationship, one person at a time, you know, and, and having that,

that care and that respect, um, all along the way. Tell me what really happens on these trips, especially, I mean, it goes through the kids, go through the adults, like break that down. What does it look like? Somebody's to sign up and say, all right, I'm heading to Idaho. We're going to do the damn thing. I want to learn about nature. Well, so we offer a lot of different programs. So that would take me quite a while to explain them all. But when it comes to the younger kids, I mean, I'll kind of start at the youngest point and move up. For the younger kids, Kyle, it's pretty basic. You're a father, I understand? Yeah, three and a half. Little animal. So if you take... Perfect. So that three-year-old, right? Son or daughter?

Son. Okay. So if you took your son out and took him, I don't know, over to a state park or something, and you ensured it was a safe place, and you just let him lead, and you followed him, you would learn a ton. Honestly, we all would. I would. Because kids, we have to realize, as human beings, we evolved on this planet. This is, you know, most of my work, it's easier, actually, to mentor kids than it is adults, because with adults, there's all this unlearning to do. Kids are, as human beings, I honestly believe this, we're hardwired to connect with nature because it's how we evolved. I mean, we haven't spent hundreds of thousands, maybe millions, depending on your definition of what

a human being is, evolving on planet earth. You know, that, okay, we've had a thousand years of agriculture and maybe a hundred years of some hard disconnect from nature, but it's still in us. So working with the young ones, it's easy. Basically, give them a safe environment and let them go to town. They're naturally in their senses. They're experiencing things. It's not about hard skills, right? They're like three or four or five or six. It's not about teaching them how to make fire by friction or survive in the woods. It's about them building basic relationships with the natural world, right? Finding frogs or hiding in a pile of leaves, letting them be in their imagination and cultivating that

relationship with their imagination, which is so huge, right? All the psychological research is showing that the real, the people who wind up making the greatest difference in our world, the great thinkers and the great change makers of our time and through history are those who had a profound imagination. Einstein was huge on this, right? And so that begins at the very earliest stages of life. It needs to be cultivated and there's no better place to do that than nature. I just did a walkthrough with my wife at Austin Waldorf

and I've been a huge fan of Waldorf schools and bears getting ready to turn four. So, you know, we went and did the walkthrough and it's 24 acres of land. It's like a camp you would send your kids to. There's all these big barn-like buildings and it just blew me away. But one of the things they kept talking about and they stressed to the parents at the end was, please get rid of as much media as you can.

We don't want kids to have any. There's a strict no media policy all the way through uh the eighth grade i think yep and then they first are introduced to computers in computer science in in high school 12 13 years old yeah maybe so like you know it's like with with that in mind if you're constantly being inundated with outside information, right? Television programming or YouTube, whatever the screen is showing you, you're not thinking for yourself. You're not imagining. You're only thinking about the thing that's being shown to you.

Yeah, exactly. Right? So you lose that skill. Yes. You know, and that's something that they're talking about, especially in these formative years is absolutely critical. Huge. Because, you know, you and I, we didn't grow up with iPads. We didn't grow.

Right. Exactly. I remember TV having to change the dial. Yeah. Like three channels, right? It was a one show a week that was any good anyway. Yeah. I'd get my Saturday morning cartoons and my mom would kick me out of the house. Right. Exactly. And play. Exactly. And so it's, it's, it's just nuts because you know, we have a tendency to act on everything that is here right now as if it has always been here. As if this is, just because it's the norm today means it's always been this way and there's nothing wrong with what we're doing. And we are living in a giant experiment with cell phone towers and fucking Wi-Fi. Who knows? What are the long-term impacts of these things?

It's never happened before. Yeah. So I think like, and this is something from our buddy, Ben Greenfield, that really resonated with me is to have one foot in ancestral living and one foot in the miracles of modern science. You know, to be tech savvy and to know how to work with that,

but also to be steeped in nature, to have a deeper connection, to be able savvy and to know how to work with that, but also to be steeped in nature, to have a deeper connection, to be able to get outside. And, you know, I don't know if you've been to his place, but he's got the 10-acre obstacle course, the Spartan course, and River and Taryn are running around out there, tearing it up as twin boys.

Like, it's just, like, that's it. That's how you want to do it, right? Yeah, exactly. No, actually, River and Taryn go to Twin Eagles. They're students of ours. And they have been for, I don't know, four or five years when Ben and the boys came out and did my father-son wilderness program that I run. And they just ate it up. And so I've been mentoring them ever since. So yeah. So that piece that you touched on is really important, Kyle. Um, because yes, the, you know, ever since

the invention of the television really, and especially, yeah, with movies and now the rampancy of technology and screen, um, you know, Waldorf is, is smart to, to have that policy. My kids go to a Waldorf inspired school as well. And because it does, it robs them of the ability to cultivate a relationship with their own imagination, which is, I and many others believe is just essential to who we are as human beings. So yeah, big stuff, big stuff right there. So, you know, you give a kid three, four, five years of cultivated, supported mentoring in the natural world and you honor them, right? You, you, when they come back and they say, dad, I want to tell you the story of this salamander I found under this rock.

It was amazing. You know, oh my God, it was slimy. It was really gross. It kind of smelled like poop, but man, it was awesome. You know? And, uh, and, and you, and you look them in the eye and you hear that story, you catch it, you know, you validate them. You say, hey, that was important, you know, and then a good mentor will ask them questions. Oh, what was that salamander doing? Well, I don't know. It was just, it was just there. And I was like, oh, do you think it's always there? I don't know. And through questioning, what you can do is you can inspire them to want to go back and build an even deeper relationship with it, right? And that goes, can go on for years and years and years. And so after a few years of that, then they hit what?

Eight, nine, 10 years old, right? I've got two boys, River and Forest are their names. And my oldest is 12, River's 12, and my youngest, Forest, is nine, right? And Forest at nine, oh, you know, classic nine-year-old. I mean, he is a fireball. He's always getting into things. And by the way, you know, another great thing, just very simple for all you parents out there listening, if your kids are driving you nuts inside, very simple response, send them outside. That will solve, you know, 80%, 90 probably plus of your problems is just letting them be outside. Suddenly, all that energy has somewhere to go.

But yeah, so at about eight, nine years old, they start getting really interested in some of the more in-depth skills, some of the survival skills, right? Like at our programs, we might have an instructor modeling how to rub sticks together to make fire. And excuse me, the kids are watching that. So after a couple of years of watching that, they're now really interested in, wow, how could I do that myself? And so now we start to provide those opportunities, right? And teaching them the basics of fire making because they've gotten to know the trees and they've noticed, oh,

the trees that grow in the dry lands are different than those that grow down by the water. And those ones down by the water, the wood's really light. And when they've kind of played with it and just kind of haphazardly, they've realized, oh, that's really light. And those other ones, those hardwoods, wow, that's really dense wood. And that comes into play now with fire making when you tell them, oh, you need really light wood to rub against each other because it's oxygenated in there, has more oxygen in there. And that will ignite quicker. They know what you're talking about, right? And so it's a progression. And everything's like that. They've learned the animals of their place. This is another statistic I like to throw out there. The modern child at what, eight, nine years old,

knows the 50 most common corporate logos, you know, they know Nike and they know the McDonald's golden arches, but yeah, Coca-Cola, but they don't know the 50 most common animal tracks. And that's, you know, a 180 degree flip from what it used to be. Right. Even a hundred years ago. Right. And, um, so anyhow, so yeah, nine, 10, 11, 12, they're starting to practice those skills, right? They're starting to develop competency. Maybe they're working on archery. They're working on tracking animals. They're exhibiting greater independence. And so they're being rewarded by having deeper adventures out in the natural world. And about the time of puberty, right,

which is a huge time in that transition into the teen years and adolescence, it's a big deal. And I talked about this with Aubrey, but this is the time of the rite of passage, right? And in an intact culture and community that values nature and values the learning process and values our holistic development

as human beings, we recognize that the transition from one life phase to another is a really big deal. You know, I said this before, but that's one of the biggest things I've learned from nature and from indigenous communities is that honoring transitions is so important. And when we slow down and take the time to do that, there's big, big rewards. And when we don't, there's big, big risks and losses. So this is the rite of passage. This is the time when they're at 13, maybe 14 years old, their body's changing, right? And their voice is changing. They're getting acne, their hair is starting to grow in places,

they're starting to be interested in romantic and sexual relationships, everything's starting to change. And so they're needing to be met at a deeper level. And then this is just part of what it is to grow up as a human being. They're needing to be met at a deeper level and given some challenges so they can dig inside themselves and prove to themselves of what they're capable of. And so this is the rite of passage, right? And this is one of the things I facilitate. And you mentioned Ben Greenfield a couple of times. He's really big on this and really wants it for his sons. So he's been wise because he asked me years ago about rites of passage. And I told him, I said, well, it happens at the big one.

One of the big ones happens at the turn into adolescence. But it's no good if there hasn't been some sort of mentoring relationship in place up until that point. Again, in the modern world, people look at it like this consumeristic mentality. They can just drive up and do it and get it taken care of. And then it's done. Give me the drive-through into manhood. Yeah. Give me the t-shirt, you know, it just doesn't work that way. It's a process. So, so this is what I always tell people. And it's tough because it's the modern world and everyone that we've all got our busy lives, but I've, as I've, I've seen it, man, time. And again, those families that stay invested in mentoring and their kids and nature

connection, when it comes time for that rite of passage, and they show up and they go through the big challenge and they have to face themselves and face a big challenge. And then they're seen for the boys. The boys are seen by the men in the community and we acknowledge them. We say, hey, you went through a serious trial, a serious rite of passage, and you were community. And we acknowledge them. We say, hey, you went through a serious trial, a serious rite of passage, and you were initiated. And we recognize that you are no longer a boy. You're now a young man. Holy cow, man. You use the smiles on those guys, and the pride. And because nobody did that for me, right? I'm guessing that might have been the same for you, right? Yeah, same, same.

Whoever told us we weren't a boy anymore, whoever gave us a challenge, a test that we had to move through that would prove it to ourselves and our communities. And the transitionary point from a mental, emotional, spiritual standpoint where now because the people you respect have given you this and you've had to earn it, when you come out on the other side of that, it's much easier to hold yourself to the higher standard of being a young adult.

It's much easier to hold responsibility and to really demand a level of respect in communication, to have a seat at the table among the elders and to know like, okay, my opinion matters now. Yes. I'm no longer a little kid. Yeah. All those things do wonders, right? I'm no longer a little kid. All those things do wonders, right? And it's such a missing piece in modern society. Well, and it's a community-based

process, right? Like for example, I do this every year. This spring we'll have another one. One of the biggest issues is parents, and typically it's mothers, who are attached to their sons as boys. Now, it's understandable, okay? I mean, I have the greatest respect for all of you mothers out there. My God. I mean, I witnessed both of my boys' births, and we've gotten—us guys have nothing on women, okay? That's how it stands. But yet, growth happens. And for a boy to grow into a man

in the full transitionary period, he has to be seen as such by his family and by his community. And if everyone around him is holding him to this image of this little boy that he always was because they haven't done their own work and they're not willing or ready to let go, then that alone can stop the process.

Have you ever read the book Iron John? Oh, yeah. Classic. Robert Bly. It's so fucking good. Yeah, man. No, totally. It's so good.

I highly recommend it for people, especially for men, for anybody, parents who have boys, moms who have boys, for sure. That was one that really, it really stuck out to me with the need to reconnect to the wild man. You know, like where is my animalistic nature? And that's not in like the whatever negative connotation we would attach to that, right? Like I'm ravenous and I'm going to kick ass and take names. It's like nothing to do with that. But how do I stand on my own two feet as a man? Yeah. You know, and what are the practices that helped me accomplish that?

Right. Right. And there's such clear opposing ways to live right now. Like very clear, you know, and I'm crazy. You got guys like Mark Bell is a buddy of ours. You know, I'll be in mind on the podcast. And, you know, he's begging people to do a 10 minute walk each day. Right.

Just get out and walk for 10 minutes each day. Right. Right. And it's like, that's not hard. It's 1.1 mile loop around on it. And there's, you know, there's trees and shit, but it's not in nature, but still it's a fucking one mile walk. So I'll hit that.

You're outside, you got fresh air. I'm out there. I'm out there every couple hours. Sometimes I'll do like three or four laps and just listen to audible or I'll just listen to nature. But you know, like those things are not common in the workplace, you know, and we have on it obviously is a different type of culture. We've got a lot of people that walk around here and a lot of people that are barefoot like myself. And, uh, there's good things that go with that. But the point is that it's almost commonplace to not know any of this. It's commonplace to not know how important it is. And

it's commonplace to think that it's okay to be indoors all fucking day long. Right. Right. Which is crazy. I'm so glad you mentioned Robert Bly. So Robert Bly is also known as kind of the father of the modern men's movement, right? And that's become a big part of my life. I'm involved with the Sandpoint Men's Group and men's work. I've been doing that for eight years. And that's this journey of cultivating what we call masculine emotional maturity. I mean, that's kind of a mouthful. But basically what it comes down to is, am I aware of my emotions, right?

Happiness, sadness, anger, fear, guilt, shame. Can I own it? Can I acknowledge it? Can I accept the fact that I'm having this feeling right now? And three, can I express it, right? Do I have a place or people in my life where that'll hold that as sacred? So, you know, men's work, right? A lot of, typically what we see is guys come in in their forties, right? And it's the classic scene. They're having a midlife crisis. No one's taught them emotional maturity. They didn't go through a rite of passage and now what, maybe they've got a divorce, their life's falling apart and they don't know where else to turn, right? So they'll show up at a men's group, right?

And for the first year, they're pretty much in crisis, but through that, they're able to learn these basic skills of emotional maturity. And now what's interesting is inside the individual, when you study the psychology and awareness of an individual, when self-awareness first starts being birthed is around that transition into puberty. And so in the rites of passage work that I do, I'm always initiating that. whole curriculum really on emotional maturity and being present with how you're feeling, acknowledging it, expressing it out into the world and taking responsibility for it. And wow. Oh, wow. I mean, again, that one alone is huge. And, you know, kids aren't, I mean, teens, are you kidding? They're not getting that anywhere these days. No, no. You know, and it's, I mean, it's literally Kyle. It's, it's like, it's like an oasis in the desert,

you know, and I can't keep up with it. I even, even when it was small, I couldn't keep up with it because it's such a huge need out there. So, so, you know, I mean, there's such a big need for, yeah, for teens to, to be able to have, especially for males, right. Cause there's the old, the old male narrative of, you know, machismo and everything else. Holy crap. I mean, look at the destruction it's causing our world externally in the natural world and internally in families and communities and inside the human psyche. And so clearly there's a need. I mean, we've got the whole Me Too movement going on, right? And as men, it's so critical that we look within and ask, how am I showing up in the midst of all this, you know? And, you know, am I supporting the healing of our community and culture, or am I not? You know, am I contributing to the devastation?

And so, in my book, the first point when that needs to happen is right there at the transition into adolescence. And to have that be offered by mentors who've been working with you for five, 10 years, there's nothing like it. I mean, when I go through those experiences with those guys and I take them through, it's like, literally, it's like my family grows. I mean, by the end of that, I feel more like their uncle than their mentor, right? And the feeling's mutual, you know? And so now I'm like this big uncle. I've got dozens of nephews, you know? So yeah, so then we enter the teen years. And exactly as you said, those initiated teens, holy cow. I mean, they're some of our best mentors at our school, honestly.

I mean, way better than even the adults who spent years doing this. Because when a human being grows up and gets all those needs met at the right time, right, at the right phase of life, a lot comes on board, man. And you look at those teens and they know who they are. They're powerful, but they're humble. They're charismatic. They're truly helpful in the world. They're not all crazy and chaotic like everyone kind of believes teens have to be because that's what we see in our world. And the parents literally come up to me, right? Because we have them come and help out at the younger kid programs. And typically, again, it's the moms, but dads too. They'll be like, Tim, where do you find these teens? These people are amazing. They're not like any other teenager I've ever met. I'm like, no, no, you don't understand. They're just

regular people who got their needs met, you know? This could be your kid too. Just stick with it, I tell them, you know? But really, I mean, it's amazing to see what happens. And so, you know, that, so through the teen years, and they're developing greater and greater levels of competency. Exactly, you know, they're being offered opportunities to serve in meaningful ways. That's another huge thing that teens need. Teens need to know that they can contribute, not story problems, you know, or lost in textbooks. They need to know they have a place in our community. And we as adults, exactly as you said, value their perspective and value their time and their energy. And so when we meet the teens like that, you know, then,

yeah, by the time they hit 18, 19, 20, they want to contribute, right? They want to be positive, contributing members of society. And that's the point, typically, when the next big rite of passage, that transition from adolescence into authentic adulthood happens, and that's typically the vision quest, right? And that's the big one. That's the know, alone, fasting in nature, holding that in just a small little circle and maybe no bigger than this table we're sitting at right here, maybe, you know, six, 10 feet in diameter, holding that intention. Why am I here? You know, I know my life's not an accident.

I know there's some greater purpose to why I'm here, but I have some role to play. And again, Aubrey and I spoke about that a lot. So for listeners, if you want to know more, get into this conversation more. We'll link to it in the show notes for you, for sure. Check out that show with Aubrey. But that's an incredible time. And again, in the ideal scenario, and we don't all get the ideal scenario, but in the ideal scenario, they've had mentoring most of their life by that point. And that person taking them through knows them intimately, you know, so they can, so, because like, right, as a guide, as a mentor, I can dial

those experiences very subtly to work the edges of my students and my nephews and nieces to give people just what they need. Now, some of that comes from experience as a mentor, because I've been doing this for 20 years. But some of it comes from just from knowing your student, knowing the person you're working with, right? Like you think about those people who have been really impactful in our lives. And oftentimes, they're the ones we've spent the most time with, right? I think anybody successful recognizes the value of that ongoing mentoring. So yeah, so this is the vision quest. They come through that and have a psycho-spiritual, eco-spiritual realization of their place in the world, their vision, their purpose.

And again, this is kind of best case scenario in the ideal scene. And then they're launched, you know, and, and this isn't super common, even up there in my community, but we're starting to see it, you know, like, like I've got, I mean, I've been doing this for 14 years. So I know guys that are now like 21 that I've been mentoring since they were seven. It was pretty amazing, you know, that I'm taking through that process. And holy cow, there's just some powerful individuals who are going to make an impact on this world, right? That's massive. You're doing good work.

Oh, dude, it's huge. I love it. You know, I love it. And the thing to say is this, because I don't want to, I'm mindful of our listeners right now. I don't want to scare people off and say, well, if you don't have the ideal scenario in this full scene and 20 years of mentoring, then it's lost. A person at any point in the journey, even very late in life, can come in and make up for lost time, right? I mean, I didn't get any of this stuff consciously until I was like 25, but I was able to put the pieces back together. And so, right, like, so we take,

Twin Eagles, we take kids when they're teens and we start working with them then. We take them when they're young. We take in adults, you know. My new, more recent work, Purpose Mountain is an organization I founded just this year. And that work is really explicitly focused on helping people to discover their vision, their purpose in life. And so I work with adults, you know, and 20-somethings and 30-somethings and 40 and 50 and beyond. And so it's always possible, you know. But yeah, there is an ideal scene. And I hold the vision of a world, a community, a culture where kids' needs are getting met like this, from the humans' needs are getting met like this from the beginning. And so it's not such an uphill battle, you know, and there's not such rampant resistance

and fear when it comes to doing this work. Again, we spoke about a lot of that on the Aubrey's podcast. But yeah, so it's all possible. You know, it's all possible. And I have a lot of hope. People oftentimes ask me, well, what do you think about the world? I'm like, well, look, I got my concerns too, right? There's all kinds of crazy shit going on out there. But when I see, I mean, I've seen people change, Kyle. I've seen transformation happen in myself and in others. And I've seen mostly from the power

of nature, you know, and the, and the power of the human heart. Um, for me at best, I just look at myself as more like an assistant mentor. The real mentor is like the earth. The real mentor is spirit or consciousness, right. Or the human heart. I'm just kind of a helper to help people tap into that. And once they tap in, tap in i mean it's and you get a direct line going then you're going yeah but what we need help back right yeah no turning back for sure um so yeah so i'm very hopeful you know i've seen so much change in this world um i i think we can i think we can pull our our collective shit together and and turn it around and good work like you know you guys are doing here on it and,

you know, it's, yeah. Yeah. We all do what we can. That's right. So you run multiple camps throughout the year. I know we're getting close here on time, but yeah, multiple camps throughout the year. Do you, are the majority of people that attend these from Idaho or do you have people flying in from all over? Both. So when it comes to youth, most of our youth programs are local regional. So we work the whole area. It's called the Inland Northwest, Sandpoint, Idaho, Coeur d'Alene, Idaho, Spokane, Washington. Spokane is where Ben lives. And so most of our youth programs are pretty local, but we'll, I mean, we have every summer and every year we have people fly out. So we're happy to work with anybody in terms of the wilderness school. When it comes to working with adults, we get a lot more people traveling.

I mean, I get people traveling internationally to come out and check out what we're doing. You know, there's a handful of schools out there doing this work. I think we largely refer to it as deep nature connection mentoring. That's the ecological awakening, the survival skills, the naturalist skills. What's really made me unique, even in that world, is my focus on purpose. There's not a lot of people who've put so much focus on the inner journey. For me, I'm just the kind of guy, I've been a very sensitive person my whole life. So I'm kind of like, like it or not, I've got a natural aptitude for this.

And my life started getting easy once I surrendered to that. For quite a while, I resisted that and things were more difficult. But anyhow, yeah. So what makes the work that I do really unique, I think, is the big focus on, on, on cultivating a spiritual sense of purpose. Right. So on that front, um, I work with people internationally. Yeah. And a lot of that can be done even on the phone or Skype or whatnot. Awesome brother. Yeah. Well, shit, man, we absolutely crushed it. Thank you so much for coming on the show. Yeah. Yeah. Where can people find you? It's twin Eagles. Yeah. So two organizations. We've got Twin Eagles Wilderness School.

That's on the web at www.twineagles.org. T-W-I-N-E-A-G-L-E-S dot O-R-G. Again, that's for more of the nature programs we've got. I do like the father-son program there. We do summer camps, various nature connections, survival camps, and programs for youth and adults. A lot of 20-somethings like to come out and be like volunteers or instructors with us. So if you're in your 20s and you're wanting to get on board, come check us out. We've got a great 10-day training we're doing this spring. People can come out and get a big intensive immersion.

And then for people who are on that journey of purpose, you know, that's where my heart really is in a big way right now, this last year. So I put a lot of focus in on that. And that's where I'm feeling a lot of aliveness. And so, you know, for the people who are out there listening, wondering like, really that question, you know, why am I here? What is the bigger reason for my existence? And if you're listening to this and you're not feeling satisfied, what I really want people to know is you can do something about it. And it takes some time. It's not going to happen in an hour.

It takes some time. But you can discover your deepest place, your deepest reason for being. And that, honestly, is some of the most rewarding work that I do. So that work is happening at Purpose Mountain. And that's www.Purpose work is happening at Purpose Mountain, and that's www.purposemountain.com. People can get online. I've got a free ebook, several free exercises people can check out just to get a sense of my work.

Yeah, sign up for my email list, and then you can check out my offerings from there. Dude, thank you so much, Tim. It's been great, Kyle. Thank you, man. Thank you guys for tuning in. Hope you enjoyed this one. Give Tim a follow.

Go check out his website, which we've linked to in the show notes, which is absolutely exceptional. So you can find out upcoming dates. And if you want to jump in there or take your kids, highly recommend it. It's something I'm going to do. I'm waiting until Bear turns six,

but right when he turns six, we're going to go out for our first little course together. Hope you guys enjoyed this one. And as always, 10% off products like food and supplements at onnit.com slash podcast.