Kyle Kingsbury Podcast - #98 Dr. Mike T. Nelson

Episode Date: July 29, 2019

Dr. Mike T. Nelson has spent 18 years of his life learning how the human body works, specifically focusing on how to properly condition it to burn fat and become stronger, more flexible, and healthier. He’s has a Ph.D. in Exercise Physiology, a BA in Natural Science, and an MS in Biomechanics. We discuss the most successful exercise for results, breath, meditation, heart rate variability and more. Connect with Mike T Nelson: Website | https://miketnelson.com/ Instagram | https://www.instagram.com/drmiketnelson/?hl=en Twitter | https://twitter.com/MikeTNelson Facebook | https://www.facebook.com/miketnelson2   Show Notes: Art of Breath - https://bit.ly/2z8rf0Q Heart Rate Variability - https://bit.ly/2UNxHVX Wim Hof Breathing - https://bit.ly/2s1GKqF   Organifi  https://www.organifishop.com/ (Use Promo Code Kyle for 10% Off)     Whoop 3.0 www.whoop.com (code Kyle at checkout to save $30 off new subscriptions)    Onnit Fuck Yeah Coffee Get 10% off all foods and supplements at Onnit by going to https://www.onnit.com/kyle/   Felix Gray Blue Blocker Sunglasses (Free Shipping/ 30 days risk-free, returns and exchanges) felixgrayglasses.com/kyle  https://bit.ly/2J0BhJA   Connect with Kyle Kingsbury on: Twitter | https://bit.ly/2DrhtKn Instagram | https://bit.ly/2DxeDrk    Subscribe to the Kyle Kingsbury Podcast Itunes | https://apple.co/2P0GEJu Stitcher | https://bit.ly/2DzUSyp Spotify | https://spoti.fi/2ybfVTY IHeartRadio | https://ihr.fm/2Ib3HCg Google Play Music | https://bit.ly/2HPdhKY  

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Hey there, guys. We've got Dr. Mike T. Nelson in the house. Dr. Mike T. Nelson was also a gimme at Paleo FX where somebody was like, actually, it was Dr. Michael Ruscio was like, yo, you got to have this guy on the show. And Dr. Mike T. Nelson was a speaker on a panel with me, and we really got to know each other through our advice to the masses. So people had questions. There's moderators for these panels at Paleo FX in case you've never been. And they prompt you with some pretty basic ass questions, if I'm being perfectly honest. What's cool is to see where these other panelists take their answers. And I drew a lot from Mike T. Nelson. He's got a wealth of knowledge.

He's pretty much steeped in the science of performance and it's really cool to see how we can take somebody from A to Z who's never done shit, but also how we can take an athlete who's already pretty good at performance and push them a little bit further. We get some very practical stuff in this episode, how-tos for cardio and for optimizing HRV, all the way to aerobic-based building and

lactate threshold, all the good stuff's in here. I know you guys are going to dig it. Thanks for tuning in. Dr. Mike T. Nelson is in the house, ladies and gentlemen. Hey, how's it going? Thank you for having me. It's going great, man. I just realized that you were recommended me by my friend, Dr. Michael Ruscio, who you've been working working closely with and then we just had a guy named michael trainer on uh literally this morning it's like i'm fucking surrounded by mics everywhere it's everywhere you can't get away from us i certainly can't we spoke on a panel about some really important shit uh at paleo effects and i think like you can always tell and i'd heard a lot about you but you can always tell, and I hadn't heard a lot about you, but you can always tell someone's wealth of knowledge. We were getting very basic questions on some of the foundations of health. And even one of the questions threw me for a loop. It had to do with somebody who's never lifted weights before and is not in shape and is living on the standard American diet, what's the first thing that you go over with them? And, you know, you could take that answer anywhere.

Oh, yeah. Anywhere. But I think you talked about the breath. Yeah, breathing. Which is, yes. It's like, yeah, fuck weights, fuck all this other stuff. Like, that's the number one thing. And, you know, the guy, the reason you've been waiting an extra hour is because i was just on a podcast with paul check and aubrey marcus and uh he you

know that that really resonates with me that concept of as you mentioned you go without food you can do that for a month maybe longer you go without water record is over a year that's right supervised fast that's right you dropped from 400 plus down to 185 yeah you know um and no stretch marks either you know your skin was actually shrinking too it was the body digested itself properly but you know that's without food without water days right without air minutes minutes minutes yeah world record breath hold unassisted i want to say is someone will correct me but 12 ish minutes 10 ish minutes maybe maybe a little less than that i think assisted with oxygen is up in 21 ish minutes i think somewhere in there i don't have the exact time how do they assist with oxygen if you're not breathing is it intravenous

beforehand so the hyperventilate on oxygen to clear out co2 yeah so wim hof style or holotropic breathing they'll actually use oxygen like oh okay like oxygen tanks okay um because you can get a little bit more in with a higher pressure it's like when david blaine did his stunt um that's what he did also so you can get longer but in my opinion the risk gets a lot higher because you're kind of circumventing some of those natural protective loops in the body and you can you have a higher risk of just passing out underwater too so okay well i definitely want to get more into the breath work and covering the basics which i think are incredibly important for everybody but first let's get your background like what got you into health and wellness and really starting to sort out and

become a you know a trainer to the stars yeah most of it like probably most trainers was just me trying to figure myself out and probably still is to a large degree so when i was a kid i actually had what's called a lazy eye or a strabismus so my eyes didn't track together at all and what they did then is they would patch the quote unquote good eye to make the quote unquote bad eye work more and And then once your eyes track normal, they go, ah, we fixed the issue. Don't worry about it. Before that, when I went into the optometrist's office, they did this little test and I was four years old. They hold up this little dog at the end and they asked me, they're like, you know, how many of these do you see?

And I guess I told my parents, I'm like i'm like well two but only one of them's real because when you interact with your environment if i see two of those water bottles i go to interact with my environment i learn what's the real image and what's the false image right so i can only grab the real image so proprioceptively the world starts to kind of match up with only one of the images but the brain doesn't want to be confused. So what it does then, it actually does, it's called a visual suppression. So even now I can see good out of my right eye, I can see good out of my left eye. But when those images go to the back of the brain, my right eye actually sits up and out, have a vertical and horizontal deviation.

So those two images are skewed much farther than what they should be right so normally we've got two eyes and they're offset a little bit the images are offset just a bit the brain takes both images fuses them together and that's what we perceive as 3d vision in my case they were skewed so much i was seeing double vision my brain couldn't fuse those two images together and so the brain solution long term then is, well, screw it. I'll just drop one of the images, right? I'll suppress, in my case, the image from the right eye. So if I close my eye, boom, my brain can switch to the other eye.

Close this eye, boom, it can switch to the other eye. But both of them together, it's too confusing. I would see in double vision. So it suppresses it. What happens then is you go from binocular vision to basically monocular. So for me, although I'm much better now than it used to be, it's kind of like walking around with one eye closed all the time. Super hard with depth perception. Yeah, I don't technically, I don't have depth perception per se. And what's fascinating is I didn't realize any of this until

I was like in my late 20s. So even driving a car, I didn't figure it out because I was horrible at it. I scared the crap out of my parents. And I just thought, well, I've never driven a car. I just suck, right? So playing ball sports, I thought, oh yeah, kids who are not very athletic, they get hit in the face with balls all the time. That's just normal.

That's what happens to them. And then later I realized,'s not that's not really normal and when i was four and a half i actually had open heart surgery so i had this called an asd atrial septal defect and i was born there's a chamber in the middle of the heart that separates oxygenated and deoxygenated blood so when you're in the womb you're obviously go back to breathing you're not breathing right because the blood's just flowing around in a circle. The heart's still beating, but it doesn't have to go through the lungs. Second year born, now you start to breathe air. Those holes in the chambers, the septums actually start to close up. So now your body can keep the oxygenated and deoxygenated

blood from mixing together. In my case, the atrium, there's a hole between the two sides, left atrium, right atrium. So I've got oxygen two sides left atrium right atrium so i've got oxygenated and deoxygenated blood mixing all the time which makes the heart super inefficient and i actually had basically congestive heart failure and my heart when i was four was the size of someone who was 18 so the heart gets bigger and bigger and bigger because it's inefficient it's doing a lot more work so i went in and they do thoracotomies to crack your chest open go in and they stitched it up it was in the hospital for probably about like 10 days i still have little twist ties you know to wire your sternum back together and that sort

of thing and so lo and behold fast forward i did a bachelor of arts in natural science minor in chemistry minor in math and then did two years of pre-engineering work went to graduate school for a master's in mechanical engineering kind of biomechanics stuff and i ended up working for a medical device company actually in cardiology for like 10 years all right so you think back on all the stuff that happens to you as a kid and how that sort of it's not really even a conscious thing that you kind of even realize at that point so it kind of pushes you off to that direction and at the same time i was just super interested in physiology like i took anatomy and physiology as an undergrad just for fun you know so i did

my undergrad in scholastic in duluth minnesota anyone could walk in and take anatomy and physiology and you actually worked on cadavers which was very very rare probably still is you know most of the time if you go to physical therapy or go to be a physician or whatever then you kind of work on cadavers it's not really part of an undergrad curriculum where there it was and you didn't even have to formally be in that program so i just started taking stuff for fun i actually just wandered into exercise physiology when I was doing my master's. I just called the guy and I'm like, hey, can I take exercise phys? He's like, wait, what's your major? I said, oh, I'm doing a master's in mechanical engineering. He's like, you have none of the prereqs. This is like a 400 level class. I'm like,

I don't care about any of the grades. I just want to audit it. Can I just like, just take the class? And he looks, he goes, but you've maxed out your credits. I'm like, oh, and he's like, wait a minute. So you just want to come to the class he looks he goes but you've maxed out your credits i'm like oh he's like wait a minute so you just want to come to the class for fun and you have no background in it and you don't care about the credits i'm like yeah he's like that sounds pretty good just show up at this time and i won't really kick you out of the class i'm like oh sweet i'm just kind of been interested in all that i did five years years as a PhD program in biomedical engineering. I ended up dropping out of that because I didn't really want to do any more hardcore

mathematics stuff. I went over and started a PhD in exercise physiology, looking at heart rate variability and metabolic flexibility. And so it took me about seven years to finish that and started working with clients since 2006 so i've always interested in what is the kind of the gap or the how do you hybridize both academics and real world practice like how do you get them to flow kind of together because everything i saw was very split like even in the lab i was, students would come in and they'd be like, hey, you know, how do you this or this or that exercise technique? And these are exercise physiology people, but it

was kind of more of a practicality question. And the right joke in the lab was, oh, you got to ask Mike. Like other people like we're doing cardiovascular research, research on exercise and cancer. So even though they were in exercise phys, they didn't really ever have to apply it in terms of how a trainer would apply the stimulus of exercise to clients. So even at like kind of the highest level, there was still a very odd disconnect, in my opinion, from the real world. And, you know, granted, they're going off to be, you know, researchers in different areas. So you could argue it's probably not super practical to them. But I always thought that was just, I you could argue it's probably not super practical to them. But I always thought that was just, I don't know, to me it always seemed weird.

Yeah, like they're missing the mark. Yeah, yeah. And part of that was just, again, to solve my own issues. I started college, like six foot three, same height I was now, and I weighed a whole 156 pounds. This is like in my first year of college. So I had passed all my, you know, growth spurts and all that kind of stuff. And I'm still like a eel shaped rake. So a lot of it was just,

I remember taking my first exercise class to show you how to do training, which was more of a FIAD type credit. And I remember the guy, the professor walking in, who's actually the track coach. And he's looking around. He's like, all right, some of you need to lose weight. And then he looks at me and goes, holy shit, some of you need to gain weight. I'm like, yeah, that's why I'm here.

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everything they sell, go to Organifi.com and punch in code word Kyle at checkout. That's 20% off everything in the store. Easy peasy. Let's jump in here now. You train some really prominent people and you have a wealth of knowledge when it comes to many of the topics that I want to get into. Sure. But we touched a little bit on the basics.

When you first take somebody in and you're working with them, what are some of the things that you're looking for when it comes to assessment? Because we're going to talk about, we've been greenlit from our boy, Dr. Michael Ruscio, to go into some of the ways that you've fixed his imbalances. And I think that's, it's something that we can't always see in and of ourselves. You know, what is our pelvic tilt? What is our neck posture? Where are all these things sitting in the body that can lead to injury if we're not paying attention? So walk us through kind of how you assess people and

what are some of the prominent fixes and solutions to those problems? Yeah. I just redid my whole assessment again. And the assessment I do in person is very different from the one I do online. So-person is much more of the mechanic side because you actually have the person in front of you you can get them to do a squat you can get them to do a deadlift you can just look at general movement patterns gait things of that nature online's a little bit harder to do that you can kind of get at some of it so for online i use just a static posture position i have them do uh a, it's a PRI toe touch. It's a PRI Postural Restoration Institute.

It's a very specific squat test that they do. And all it's looking at is angle of the pelvis in relation to how you can squat down, right? So you're trying to get an idea of how their pelvis is playing with their squat position. And usually you can just have someone do a body weight squat from the side and from the front and you can see what's kind of going on and see where they kind of run out of space, be it the ankle, the knees, their pelvis is tilted super far forward. Usually I'll ask them like, hey, are your hamstrings tight?

They're like, yeah. How did you know that? And it's like, well, because the angle of the pelvis is tilted forward, the insertion of the hamstring is on the back. So you're walking around with your hamstrings basically pre-stretched all the time. So of course, they're going to appear kind of tight. From there on the performance side, metabolic stuff, I got this primarily from Dr. Kenneth Jay, who does the Kerrig Institute, the human performance program, which I help with the nutrition recovery part of that program too, is just a whole assessment if they're more on the metabolic side. I'm very interested in what are the metabolism and bioenergetics. So everything from 100 meter on the rower, which is just all out, how fast can you do 100 meters,

to a different series of what's called a Wingate test. I don't know if you've ever done a Wingate test before. I've not. Yeah, it's 30 seconds. And in the lab, we have these super specialized bike we use. So in the lab, we used to do them all the time. And the running joke was we'd have a pool to see how many people would puke so we'd actually do kind of informal betting to see how many pukers we would get so we were testing it in the lab on students for them to get practice and we were next to the strength and conditioning which was

cal deets and his staff at the time we're in the same building so we actually shared the same bathroom so one of his staff comes down in the lab one day i see him poke his head in and kind of laugh and then uh walks out and i i caught him later i said hey kevin what were you doing he's like oh someone was puking in the bathroom so i figured we had a bet that it was wingate day so i wanted to check to see if it was and he's like like, I won. It was Wingate day. So you put them on a bike, pedal as fast as you possibly can. And then you have this weight that gets dropped onto a flywheel that takes the resistance from, you know, maybe 50, 100 watts to like several hundred watts, like instantaneous. And then you just keep pedaling as hard as you can for 20 to 30 seconds. Or if you're doing it on a rower, you do your warm up, get all warmed up. And then when you hit go, just row as hard as you can for 20 to 30 seconds or if you're doing it on a rower you do your warm-up get all warmed up

and then when you hit go just row as hard as you can for 30 seconds so 30 seconds is very much a lactate accumulation test what sort of power can you create and on a bike and even on a rower it like you get 10 seconds in you're like ah this is good this isn't that bad 20 seconds in you're like, ah, this is good. This isn't that bad. 20 seconds in, you're like, oh my God, someone replaced my legs with concrete. And the last few seconds, you're just, it's really, really hard. So I'll do that for 30 seconds and then they'll do one for 60 seconds. Then I'll even have them do one for three minutes. So the three minute one is brutal because you'll get to about max lactate levels in 60 seconds, and then you have two minutes to try to hold that level. So what I'm looking at in the test is how much power can they create?

How long can they kind of hold that power, what sometimes is referred to as critical power? So if you have an athlete that's a speed and power athlete, that's going to be pretty important. Even someone who's not, if I just see them go up and then just completely fall apart, I know that that area of metabolism, they're just kind of missing. And then we'll do even like 2K on a rower. You can take the 2K performance time and get their VO2 max. So how well can they use oxygen? So kind of a aerobic baseline marker. And Concept2 has some very good stats on that that I can then take that number, translate it to a VO2 max,

and there's lots of very normative data on that. So I can tell someone, hey, you're in like the 20% for like aerobic capacity. You're pretty low. Or if they're consequently already pretty good, you're like, hey, you're in the 75 percentile. Your goal is more speed and power. Okay, let's just try to maintain that quality quality we're not going to worry much about it

so i run through a whole bunch of tests on that whatever the priority is for lifting i'll have them do probably a three to five rep max if they're experienced athlete i'll have them work up and do a one rep max film that from the front and then the side then i have some other stuff like i have one question i'll ask them of you know what is the number one exercise you think is most responsible for your results and because that's more of uh actually on the psychology side so if they tell me oh bro it's you know one arm standing on a bosew ball left pink dumbbell curls i'm like that is the dumbest thing I've ever heard of. I'm probably still going to put it in their program, right?

Because for whatever screwball reason, they think that that thing is the most important thing that's responsible for their results. So first thing you're going to do, pay me a whole bunch of money. I send them a program. They're going to look to see if that thing is in there, right? Did this person actually listen to what I told them? And if it's not in there, they're going to be like, if that thing is in there right did this person actually listen to what i told them and if it's not in there they're gonna be like oh this guy's an idiot i told him

the number one thing he doesn't even bother to include it in my program same thing for nutrition what is the number one food that you do not want to be removed from your diet if they tell me pizza or whatever the interesting concoction you're eating before the show was, I'm probably going to put it in their diet, right? Even if they have some weird adverse reaction to it, I'll kind of deal with that later as a side note. I'll keep track of it. But if I remove that right away, yeah, you can kind of poke and prod them and do some stuff for a couple of weeks, but it's not going to be a long-term sustainable thing. Last couple of things I have in there too is from Patrick McEwen. Do something called a bolt test. And you're probably familiar with it.

You kind of breathe in, breathe out, rest at state in the morning, and then just stop and exhale. Then see how long can you go and then breathe normally again. What you're trying to get at is the build up levels of CO2. You're trying to get a rough proxy for how well can their body actually handle CO2 in relation to breathing. So if that test comes back and it's like five seconds, oh boy, they have probably some aerobic issues. They probably breathe through their mouth. They're probably not sleeping good. They probably have a host of other things. If it comes back and they're like 30 seconds, they're probably doing pretty good with breathing and that type of thing.

If they're in person, I can get even fanciest doing stuff like a moxie test. I can stick a sensor on their quad or any muscle I want. I have three of them and it'll tell blood flow and it'll tell oxygen delivery and how much oxygen is going in. And I also just bought a metabolic cart too. So you can do whole level VO2 testing, resting metabolic testing, and then look at what fuel they're actually using, fats versus carbohydrates. So for online, I try to get as much of the stuff I can do in person with fancy equipment, try to get some proxy markers for that. And it takes about a week for them to do all of that stuff, which is pretty, pretty intense. And it's not a lot of fun. Like if you've done lactate stuff before, it's freaking very complete picture of where their strength levels are. There's even some normative data you compare that to. And I know about

where they are compared to normative data, where they are with different bioenergetic systems. And then I kind of plug that into where they want to go in relative relation to their goals. Not a long-winded answer. No, thank you. That is

super in-depth and awesome uh where's your where's your where do you do this if somebody can meet you in person yeah i'm in the twin cities minnesota in white bear lake well i'm never out that way but i might have to make i might have to make a trip yeah just just to come in um i want to talk about it so first you know something you'd mentioned with that breath test, that's from the Oxygen Advantage with Patrick McCown. It's a great book to read. Once you have this kind of data on people, what are some of the ways that you start to change? Obviously, that's goal dependent. You know, if you have somebody that's training for the Ironman, that's going to look different than somebody who's trying to, you know, increase his PR on deadlift. Yeah. But strictly speaking on the breathwork, CO2 retention, things like that, how do you train really to improve that score?

Yeah. So the reason that CO2 retention, this is kind of hypothetical, is important is if I have a MOXIE device, I can look to see blood flow. I can see how much oxygen is being delivered. So first time I was tested on this is by Aaron Davis, train, adapt, evolve. And I myself was leaving about 35% of oxygen bound as it kind of whizzes by the muscle, right? So I tell clients, it's like, okay, if your job is you're a mover, and you've got a moving truck, and you got to move three people that day, you go to the first house, the moving trucks empty, that's easy, load all the first house, the moving truck's empty. That's easy. Load all your crap in, load it off at the next place. But now what if the next place leaves 30% of their shit on the truck? Now you got to go to the second place and you got 30% of someone else's

crap already on your truck. Now you can only get 70% of it off and it kind of builds up. So if you can't desaturate that oxygen to a pretty low level, you're kind of leaving oxygen to be not as effective. So then you go, okay, what is the thing that primarily drives that from muscle level? And it's actually a passive process. And it has to do with the Bohr effect in relation to CO2. So paradoxically, if I have a higher level of co2 locally that'll drive more oxygen off into the muscle and breathing wise if their co2 levels are not correct their desaturation is probably not very good so again back to your question well what the hell do you do with that then so the things i look at are one usually the aerobic training is not very good so we're

going to start doing more aerobic training usually very lower intensity kind of longer slower distance stuff i do agree with uh like you have brian mckenzie and rob wilson on here i love those guys uh probably nasal breathing uh because for a while it was kind of big into there's a spider tiger there's power lung there's other things for respiratory muscle training might be useful but then you're like i listened to some brian's stuff and rob's i'm like oh There's a Spyro Tiger. There's Power Lung. There's other things for respiratory muscle training. Might be useful. But then you're like, I listened to some Brian's stuff and Rob's. I'm like, oh, you mean your nose?

Maybe I should just breathe through that thing. And I had a pretty good CrossFit athlete the other day do this. I said, okay, I just want you 20 minutes on the rower. I just want you to breathe through your nose. And he's got pretty good power output. His stats are pretty darn good. He like oh my god he's like i feel like i'm drowning in air you know it's very hard to someone who's not used to it but what are you doing you're purposely restricting airflow to purposely build up co2 levels and if you, well, why is that so horrible? Because CO2 is the primary driver to breathe. Actually, not oxygen. Oxygen is the backup kind of chemoreceptive sensing unit.

So you're purposely building up more and more and more CO2, and you're trying to change that sort of central perception of what is a normal CO2 level. That's primarily more at the brainstem. So over time, people get accustomed to higher levels of CO2. They have that at the muscle level. They can desaturate oxygen better. And that's a passive process. It doesn't really require any more energy.

So nasal breathing appears to help with that. That's, I would say, still theoretical, but I've done a fair amount of it. I know Brian's done a lot of it. Rob's done a lot of it. My buddy a fair amount of it. I know Brian's done a lot of it. Rob's done a lot of it. My buddy Caldeet's done a lot of it. For low-intensity work, it seems to make a pretty big difference. The other part I'll do is I'll have them do kind of their own hands-on work.

There's a system called RPR, Reflexive Performance Reset. And they'll do work like on their sternum, maybe some pectoralis inserts, kind of diaphragm stuff, maybe even some just in the stomach area, so to speak, visceral stuff. And what you're doing is you're trying to activate the diaphragm and get the lungs to actually move better via getting the rib cage to move better. And so you're trying to enhance the mechanics, right? So if you look at how most people breathe, their ear lobes are too close to their shoulders. These muscles that run to the top part of the rib cage are doing a lot of the work. So the classic upper chest breathing. And then people will shift to be what's called belly breathing. And I think the reality is you

want a hybrid of both, right? You want that diaphragm to pull under negative pressure air in, and you will have some movement in the belly area, but you really want the rib cage to be a 360 degree expansion. So you don't really want to be entirely belly breathing or upper chest. You want those mechanics to be better. What happens with that is you're able to move more air in and out, and that makes a pretty big difference with that um those are probably the main ones i've seen uh move the needle on that you can get fancier you can do some of um potentially i don't know if you would say it's hypoxic training but longer

breath holds you can do some of the wim hof style where you're trying to move people either hyperventilate or you know know, hypoventilate, different things like that. And you can get kind of fancy. But I find in general, nose breathing helps quite a bit, lower intensity aerobic work, and then just getting better rib mechanics. If you've got someone locally that can help you with that, you know, that makes a big difference too. most certainly that's something that well we've had you know mckenzie and uh rob wilson here yeah yeah a couple years now and they'll put on the art of breath seminar and one of the first things they take us through is that kind of

that gut smash yep where you get in there and of course stuff yeah and then we use the yoga tune-up balls i actually like this this thing it's called the orb it's uh it's at a lot of running gyms but it's kind of like a soft um it's not it's not as soft as the gorgeous joe miller ball but it's you know it's more for hardcore manly men yeah exactly it's for alpha males that just want to destroy their psoas but that seems to unlock things for me in ways where it really helps my squat it really helps me take deep full breaths where i don't feel like I'm actually trying to exert myself to fill my lungs. All that's beneficial. I think people are wondering why is it important? Is it the feel? Is it the mental to be able to withstand higher levels of CO2? But something that Patrick McKeown

goes into is that if your CO2 levels are off, as you mentioned, you're not going to be utilizing oxygen the way that you normally can. So that's one of the reasons why Brian and Rob will say, you know, if you're in between sets and you've got a one-minute break in between rounds or you're in between a squat set, if you're really dying for air, you can take a few deep breaths to kind of recalibrate. But then start to shift gears back down to in through the nose out through the mouth and then in through the nose out to the nose and even if it hurts to painfully raise that co2 you're going to get more out of the oxygen in your blood if you can do that yeah definitely i mean it's again there's not a i'd say a ton of research in that area in terms of you know randomized control, that type of stuff. Respiratory muscle training, it's just completely hit or miss.

But from what we understand about physiology, it makes perfect sense. And again, a lot of anecdotal work from a lot of people I've heard, just even stuff I've done myself, it appears to make a pretty big difference. And then once you get that, if you think also about stress response, right? So if I'm breathing through my mouth or breathing through my nose, breathing through my mouth is going to be more stressful, right? And we know that by looking at heart rate variability as a marker of stress, it's very much tied to breathing, which is why some of the apps when you measure it will have what's called paced breathing. You breathe in and out at a set rate to make sure that breathing doesn't affect your measurement.

And everyone's had this. Just sit in a chair, have your watch on, and just start breathing faster. Your heart rate goes up. So if you can get control of that breath, you can play around with heart rate also at the same time. So let's jump right into heart rate variability. You obviously have done some extensive work with it. I find it fascinating. I know that Brian's not a huge fan of some of the technology, but I think Whoop Watch, Orang's good. I absolutely love the Whoop. I think it's the best thing out there for activity tracking. And they measure HRV a hundred times per second. What do you find beneficial in tracking that? And again, as you alluded to with breathwork, what are some of the ways that you can help

somebody shift that score? Because I think Brian is correct. I'm in agreement with him in that, if you wake up and your HRV is a little low, but you feel good and you want to go hard, that shouldn't be the only cause for what you do that day. If you feel good and you want to go hard, that shouldn't be the only cause for what you do that day. If you feel good and you want to go, it doesn't mean, well, it looks like I'll try to max out tomorrow if my HRV score is a little bit better. No, man, you plan on maxing out and you feel good,

go for it. But what are some of the ways that we can improve HRV in real time? And what are some of the ways that we can improve it over time? Yeah, so before I answer the HRV on that aspect, I would say I agree with Brian and Andy. Their book, Unplugged, is awesome. I love it. And I don't think they're against technology. They're just making sure that it's useful and not replacing your own intuition, right? So technology can be feedback to help you get in better touch

with your own intuition. The other part, too too is that some stressors are actually unconscious, right? So sometimes you'll have something go on and it may take me days to figure out what it was. That's not that often. I'd say now it's probably only maybe 10% of the time, but you do have weird stuff like that that will show up.

HRV in terms of strength and power, in terms of absolute prediction of performance is pretty poor. It's really not that good, right? Because I used to get emails when I started doing this on people, the clients, six years ago, they'd be like, hey, HRV, you said it's great, blah, blah, blah. And like, I got a red score. I went to the gym. I hit new pr bah hrv is crap you don't know anything and i'm like of course you can do that right because it's just saying if you're red that you're higher on the sympathetic tone uh for someone who's competing in powerlifting or maybe

even crossfit or obstacle course race i actually want them to be a little bit sympathetic the day of that competition like if they're really really parasympathetic, I get worried at that point because they've gone too far. Their performance is normally gonna be down. The caveat though is you can't do that every day and day in and day out. All right, so if I take my little blue Jetta and I redline it, I can get to the grocery store faster.

But if I do that every single day, there's gonna be a cost on the engine and on the vehicle. So I think HRV is very good at telling you all stressors on your autonomic nervous system. And it's not telling you per se performance. And there's really no single indicator of predictive capacity for performance other than some type of performance itself. Maybe speed on a lift, things like that. Maybe those are pretty good predictive. of predictive capacity for performance other than some type of performance itself, right? Maybe, you know, speed on a lift, things like that. Maybe those are pretty good predictive. But again, that's very specific, too. So I think it's a little bit of an over thing to expect that one variable is going to tell you everything about your performance. However, over the long term,

it's going to give you a really good idea of are you, you know, kind of staying neutral? Or is your training and lifestyle kind of driving you to become more and more stressed or are you maybe not pushing enough maybe you have a capacity to push harder than what you could in terms of what makes a difference on it all the standard stuff helps uh sleep's probably a big one right that's not a new that's not a shock to anybody else the caveat also with sleep is there is a delay so when i first got it and was doing this i was like okay i got five hours of sleep last night do my hrv in the morning oh it's good wait a minute i thought it was going

to be crap i only got five hours of sleep and so i would do it again and again and on the weekend i'd sleep in like oh man i got 11 hours of sleep hrv is gonna be amazing it wasn't so good i'm like well wait a minute what the hell's going on and if you think about it you're like hrv more corresponds to sleep debt which is a much bigger acute stressor right so if i have a lot of good sleep and I get one night, I'm probably going to be okay. And I generally feel okay then. But if I needed to sleep 11 hours, I'd probably have a lot of stress and a lot of processes that just need recovery because I had to sleep 11 hours in order to do it. So sleep is a little weird in that it seems to correspond more to the sleep debt than it does to necessarily acute changes. So sleep helps. Nutrition can help

if you have people sometimes who are under eating or are doing what I call kind of a mismatch, right? So I'm hardcore ketogenic and I'm going to go try to be a CrossFit competitor. I'm going to go to a sport that's highly glycolytic and I'm going to remove carbohydrates. You'll see a massive spike in stress with that. Again, that doesn't mean neither one of those are good or bad. It's just a mismatch of what you're trying to do. Outside of that, things that can improve it, I found. I've tested all sorts of stuff for six years, and there's a lot of stuff that acutely can change it on a day-by-day basis, but you kind of need to do it each day. And I would

throw meditation and breath work into that. If you can get someone, I can get them on a table, and I could do a bunch of stuff and radically change their breathing rate in a couple hours, that'll actually stick pretty good. Them doing meditation for 10, 15, 20 minutes in the morning, over time, you will see a benefit. But day to day, you don't see a massive shift on that. Again, that's like sleep and brushing your teeth and things of that nature. There's things you should just do as being a good human. Every day they're going to be beneficial. Things that I've seen that have a big change that will stay for more than one day as a i.e just an acute intervention for myself have been i did some rpr reflexive performance reset which was then called deactivated the system from doug

keel i had some like i mentioned earlier and show some wonky eye stuff doug did some eye work on me that was really crazy i could see a ball coming in and catch it and see all the letters in 3D and catch it. My HRV went up 15 points and actually stayed up for like three days. Oh, wow. Which was crazy, right? So if I take a day off and I do a lot of breath work and I relax, I can get maybe a five-point jump. If I'm really beat up, maybe a six or seven-point jump.

But the next day, it'll kind of even out a little bit. So there's a lot of stuff you can do acutely that'll make a difference but not over a couple days so that made a big difference the other part is because i have a scar a midline scar i did some work on a dolphin micropoint stimulator or microcurrent where they go and they run microcurrent across the scar on both sides in order to try to repolarize it and increase ATP. And I don't understand the exact mechanism, to be honest. I don't even know if they do. But it went up again about 13 to 15 points,

stayed for like three days. Last one was some stuff through functional neurology. So different assessment, different drills to kind of reactivate part of my brain that wasn't working as well. He also did some cold laser to specific areas of the brain and that kind of stuff. So those things from a pure intervention standpoint, which, again, people may or may not have access to. If someone has a very, very low baseline, if they're looking for interaction to get it up or an intervention.

But again, the standard stuff is very helpful. But again, it's a long term increase and a minimum, not much of a decrease. And the last one is actually just old school aerobic training. You know, since I've done more aerobic training, I find that my energy level is much better. My ability to handle stress is much better. My ability actually to train lifting weights i can do a higher volume than what i could my recovery time between sets is a lot better dr and my hrv is way higher than it was before chronically yeah that makes so as a training thing i think aerobic training especially if you're on the lower end of the spectrum. And mine wasn't horrible. I mean, mine was, you know, 38, you know, VO2 score. Not great by any means, but it's not like field mouse

status at, you know, 20 or something pathological. But getting close up into the 40s and the high 40s made a big difference for me and most athletes I've worked with too. Quick break to tell you all about the most important purchase you'll make for your body, mind, recovery, athleticism, and sleep in the game. It's called WHOOP, W-H-O-O-P, and it is a performance analysis, sleep analysis, recovery analysis device that goes right on your wrist and links to your phone. You get all sorts of data from how much REM sleep you actually get in a night to how much deep sleep you get in a night, the weekly averages, how much you need based on the fact that you may have some sleep debt coming up, you may not have gotten a great night of sleep the night before, or maybe you busted your ass in the gym and you need a little

enhanced recovery. All this stuff is worked into an amazing algorithm and they use machine learning in the app to help decipher what are the different ways they can analyze and look at your data. And what do they report back to you? Everything you need to know about how hard to train, when to back off, how to go injury free, and how to get the most out of your training and your sleep. Go to whoop.com. That's W-H-O-O-P.com and enter code word kyle for 30 off a new subscription yeah yeah we had dr andy gulpin on a while back yeah i love andy he was talking about that like if you're a power whether you're a power lifter or a bodybuilder yeah to not negate aerobic training

and even i remember arnold schwarzenegger had said that uh it was there's like an old photo of him running on venice beach with franco Colombo and Joe Weider. Yeah. And he says, I wish I had run more often. That not negated the importance of that aerobic base. Yeah. What are some of the best ways to build that? Because guys like Dr. Peter Attia and different people have really, and I'm sure yourself included, have really stressed the importance of like zone two, very low threshold. To give an example, if you're jogging, to be able to hold a conversation with

someone you're jogging with or nose breathing pace, where you're just going to stay nose breathing the whole time, that's pretty much going to lock you into the low tech zone two without having to wear a heart rate monitor or look at stuff in real time. How do you find balance between that and then when to push with high intensity interval training? And how would you really, I mean, as a base layer, I know one of the things we talked about was how do you influence somebody who's never lifted a weight in their life and done anything? And it's like, I don't think anybody's starting with those people. Hopefully not. Right. And I know you work with, with some high end people. So how do you

take somebody that's already has a good base layer of fitness and has been lifting weights for 10 years and knows kind of the way around the gym? How do you take that person and increase them to the next level with the balance in building aerobic capacity? Yeah. So the biggest thing that I do now that's different even than a couple of years ago is I actually run, as I mentioned, a full assessment. And if you had to put a gun to my head and, okay, you can only pick one test. it's different even than a couple years ago is i actually run as i mentioned a full assessment

and if you had to put a gun to my head okay you can only pick one test um again i got this from dr kenneth j is just do a 2k test your first one i actually had a guy i met with a paleo effects he texted me on the way over here i'm like okay just go do this send me your data it'll give us a baseline of what your vo2 max is the equation's pretty good it's gonna suck it's not gonna be a lot of fun and he texted me to his time and he goes oh yeah that was horrible is this this the sprint on the 2k on the on the concept 2 rower yep so go on the concept 2 rower set it for 2 000 meters and then go as fast as you can now obviously it's 2 000 meters so you have to pace yourself. But most people are going to be maybe seven to eight,

maybe nine-minute range, somewhere in there. And it feels pretty brutal. But then you have a baseline of where you're going to be at. Now, it is true if you train that, you are going to see some learning effect. You'll get better at just doing the test. But it gives you a baseline without having fancy equipment or anything else.

I find most meatheads can get on a rower and do it there's not a i get you can do running you can do a cooper run test but i've seen the way some people walk around and i don't want them to run real hard you know it makes me really nervous yeah i get that um so i think the rower is a little bit better for that they usually score better in the row works it's more speed and power so once they have that then i look to see okay where are you at? And what are your goals, right? If you want to be an elite power lifter

or an elite CrossFit or obstacle course person, those are going to be different. But you're probably going to need some work. I also look at their baseline heart rate variability. Another good one that people just forget about is just AM waking, resting heart rate. You know, if your AM waking waking resting heart rate you know if your am waking resting heart rate is 74 i can absolutely guarantee you're going to need some aerobic work

if it's in the 60s you're better ideally most people just back of the envelope i want to see lowish 50s seated first thing in the morning. And that's pretty low by health and general population standpoint. But I find once they kind of get to that level, they perform a lot better. So usually if they're pretty poor off, I'll just start them with more low intensity work. I'll run that for probably about four to eight weeks. My buddy Luke Lehman, who runs Muscle Nerds, he calls it the least mode, right? The least mode versus the beast mode. And you probably have to do least mode before you can be beast mode. So I really like that.

In terms of a template, I'll still have them lift unless they're really, really bad off. But they'll lift maybe Monday, Wednesday, Friday, do some aerobic stuff Tuesday, Thursday, Saturday. So I want to get at least three to four days in. All things being equal, if they were horrible i may drop that to one or two lifting days and just run more aerobic stuff after that because you really need a volume effect um like you said you know low zone two i like just using the nasal breathing thing get on a rower do 20 minutes um breathe only through your

nose so maybe only do that for a couple weeks the cool part again about the rower is i just feel like i need to add concept to sponsor me or something it's a great machine it's awesome because you get all the metrics automatically and you just log it you put it in the logbook there's a programs you can put and just sync to your phone i can pop in online and see every session that they've done. I see all the settings in the machine. I see all the power outputs. And if you want to be just super simple, if it's a 20-minute thing you're doing, are they rowing a little bit longer in distance each week over the course of that week? Because you've capped the time. And some people only have like 20 or 30 minutes, right? And you may need to work them up a little bit above that. But once they get to a pretty good number and they've been doing

that for maybe four to six weeks, then I'll throw in some intensity stuff. A simple test you can do is just get on the rower, do a 500 meter test and see where they're at on that. So if you're only to do two tests, 2K will give you pretty good aerobic capacity. 500 meter will give you pretty good anaerobic capacity. And that gives you a marker on each end and gives you an idea of how far to skew each one. So if their 500 meter test is amazing and their 2K is not so good, yeah, maybe more on the aerobic side. And they do kind of cross over.

Give us some examples of what you would consider amazing average and poor for the 500 meter and 2000 meter. So Concept2 has them all on their site, which is super cool. So you can look and see as a percentage of the population on the data they have where you rate. So in general, I like most people to hit to be within the 75th percentile. And this is based on age.

Age and weight, that type of thing. So just some rough numbers. So for myself, when I first did a 500 meter, God, three years ago now, it was horrible. I'd never even been on a rower in my life. I didn't know what the hell I was doing. And all people, I start out, ah, this is great, and I'm hammering it.

Like 30 seconds in, I feel like I want to die, and I've only gone like 150 meters. was doing and like all people i start out ah this is this is great and i'm hammering it like 30 seconds in i feel like i want to die and i've only gone like 150 meters i go this is horrible like i got two minutes and 20 seconds or something you know just pretty abysmal but you know within a couple weeks just by practice i got down to two minutes which is still pretty abysmal and i got to 150 and then uh so for me i'm 44 i'm technically by rowing standards considered in the heavyweight male uh 75th percentile would be a time of 132 so that's my goal for the end of this year is hit 132 my pr right now is 135 just before this i just did one just for the hell of it and got 142 even though I haven't rode too

much the past couple weeks because of travel so 2k for myself for me to get in the 75th percentile is seven minutes and 10 seconds the first time I did an actual 2k I remember reading an old article by Eric Cressy and I was like oh I should try that so that. So I tried it about a year ago, and I got 8.35. And after some work, I got down to around eight minutes and then got to 7.40. So my PR right now is 7.35. So Ruchi and I have a little informal competition. So I think he got 7.32 the other day, the bastard.

So I got to go home and do one again. So that gives me an idea of where I should be in terms of general times and things of that nature. And it's also nice to see comparative data to other people. Now that data pool is probably skewed because these are people who are interested in rowing. These are people who know enough to actually log their data, to actually go on a site and actually look it up.

So you're probably pretty skewed to the high end there. But the amount of work to go from, say, 75th percentile to 90, oh man, from 90 to like elite status, I mean, that's a whole different universe. That's a whole different animal. And the health benefits are probably not really going to be that great. Right? Just like anything else.

Right? At what point, as a male human, how much should you be able great, right? Just like anything else, right? At what point as a male human, how much should you be able to deadlift, right? And we can sit around and throw out numbers and maybe it's 400, whatever. But to take my deadlift from, let's say, 400 to 500, I'm probably not going to be that much more healthy. I may even start to go the wrong direction at some point, right? So there's a lot of these u-shaped curves right if i don't deadlift at all i'm an injury waiting to happen i start deadlifting i get to a certain strength oh i'm much better but at some point if i keep pushing it in terms of health not performance i'm going to now start be going down on the other side it's almost like maslow's hierarchy

for health right like if you don't have a home, odds are you need a fucking home. But once you have the home and you're doing well, you don't need the $30 billion home because of the fact that that's not going to create that much more for you in that term. You can only be in one room in any house, right? Yeah. And so final answer on that is that if you go back to the low intensity and you're doing good, your numbers are creeping up, then I'll actually start adding some higher intensity stuff. I may have you do a 500. I have some specific interval programs

that we use at the Carrick Institute that are really good. It's like repeats of 100 meters and then 200, then 300, then 400, then 500. That very specific wattage is with only 30 seconds rest between each one. Oh, wow. And then you rest three to five minutes and then go again. So I'll have people work up on that to maybe like five rounds over the course of several

weeks. And that one's just really brutal. But if you look at the research on it, it's really good at increasing everything from 2K to even 500 meter time. Right. So some interval programs like that are definitely useful if they're programmed correctly because my fear is everything in fitness there's this big massive response from one end to the other and now what we're starting to see is almost i think a little

bit too much on the the least mode side where people are afraid of adding in some interval work and at some point you you can only get so much better with that, right? At some point, if your job and let's say your goal is to get a faster 500 meter or 2K or even to run a frigging marathon, at some point, you have to go faster, right? At some point, you're going to have to push up the intensity a little bit. But no one wants to hear the answer of, well, it depends on context and depends on where you're at, right? Everybody wants to be, oh, just only do high intensities, bro, because that burns much more calories and it's just much more hardcore and now it's almost a little bit ah you know just go do some slow runs and you'll be fine

that's a good place to start and there's huge benefits to doing that but staying there for like the rest of your life with every aerobic session what you'll see is your 2k times or your aerobic capacity will get capped right and you're also missing that whole lactate area that high intensity zone balance the key to all of it right yeah right how crazy is that that's awesome well i mean we i do have to jump back on with paul here in a minute yeah but i wanted to get uh some of the ways that you like to hack parasympathetic because we've been talking about HRV and obviously improving that score. It is a measurement of the beats in between. And to have that have a wider range means we

are in parasympathetic mode. So what are some of the ways that you tap into that through breath work or meditation or different things? Yeah. So I think any type of breath work meditation is going to be beneficial. Again, depends on what type of work you're doing. So like a Wim Hof type style, I think, is really good to get people who are very type A, like they can't settle their mind at all. Like I'll have them do three rounds of like the Wim Hof and then just how, like pretend you're dead, right? Pretend there's someone scanning around and they don't want to see you breathe at all, right? How low can you comfortably get your breathing right so try to get that rate then as low as possible so you get someone to kind of go from high to low i get a little concern about

people doing wim hof all the time because that actually is a little bit more on the sympathetic side but i think it does work good to clear the mind out and to prepare you for other stuff. I think old school, I call it the Zen stair to tree style meditation is good. You have a visual input, but it's limited just by sitting and breathing. I find that that's a very hard style to get people into because there's nothing to really, quote unquote, distract you per se. It's probably maybe a little bit more practical so i do combinations of that you can do box breathing and brian has a bunch of different protocols a lot of what i find is just what does someone actually feel better from and what are

they going to actually do and that's just where i'm going to have them start and after that you can argue back and forth about what's beneficial then doing some type of their own hands-on work I think is helpful. Getting those ribs opened up, getting that better movement. And then I would love to see a study that compared meditation in the morning to meditation at night. I think meditation at night is more beneficial for relaxation, getting into kind of a sleep mode. My gut feeling is that meditation in the morning is better as an overall translation to better parasympathetic tone. I'm not quite so sure that that's because of that 10 minutes of better breathing. I think that's helpful. But if you look at how often we breathe during the day, I'm not convinced that that's going to have a massive

effect. But what I do think there probably is a big effect from is you have that anchor of that period of time that you can remember, oh, that was nice and relaxed. Remember how chill I felt good. And when you get more stress during the day, you've got a bigger differential during that day to compare it to. And that's your awareness of being stressed, I think, will be much higher. So the joke I make in Minnesota is if you come see me and we do a bunch of work on you or whatever, my goal is to get you basically as parasympathetic as I can by the time that you leave. I want the biggest comparison I can get in the shortest amount of time because I want your nervous system to realize, wow, something crazy just happened.

So I want you to continue those habits after you leave. So in Minnesota, if you're outside and it's 20 below, you walk inside and I have it set at like 63 degrees, you're like, holy crap, it's like super warm in here. This is great. But if you've been sitting in there all day like my wife and you're like, freezing cold in here it's 62 degrees right because there's nothing to compare it to yeah so i think getting that nice block of quiet relaxation time whatever that is for you gives you that chance to have that shorter comparison to during the day to catch yourself more when your breathing shifts or you become more stressed. And then you can do something about it to kind of bring it back down again.

Yeah, you don't stay in that elevated state for long periods of time and just become oblivious to it. Yeah, you give people a reference point they can remember and recall and try to navigate their way back to that at different intervals during the day is incredibly important. Yeah. Well, dude, it's been excellent having you on. on yeah thank you so much for doing this man i really appreciate i would love to come out to you and be a guinea pig in your labs and get all the testing done there's certainly i'm i retired from fighting in a professional you know athlete career five years

ago now oh wow but i still love pushing myself in all directions and i think that's fun so so thanks for coming on the show. Thanks for letting me pick your brain. And where can people find you online? Yeah, best two places are probably just the website. The main website is just MikeTNelson.com. The other one is FlexDiet.com. F-L-E-X-D-I-E-T.com.

Those are probably the best two places that they can find me. Awesome, brother. Thank you so much. Thank you so much. Appreciate it. Thank you guys for listening to the podcast with Mike T. Nelson. Dr. Dr. Mike T. Nelson. He's got a wealth of knowledge. Hope you guys enjoyed this one, and I'll

see you next week.