LadyGang - ANTM Tea with Jay Manuel

Episode Date: February 24, 2026

We’re diving headfirst into the chaos, controversy, and cultural impact of America’s Next Top Model with none other than Jay Manuel. From iconic runway meltdowns to the judging panel dynamics we didn’t see on TV, Jay gives his unfiltered take on the show’s most talked-about moments, and what it was like working alongside Tyra Banks at the height of ANTM mania. Was it empowering? Exploitative? Both? Jay breaks down how the show shaped reality TV, the fashion industry, and the mental health conversation we’re still having today. Meanwhile in LadyGang land… Jac adds yet another horrifying reason to her growing list of why we absolutely cannot use hotel coffee makers (you will never travel the same again). Keltie overshares about getting BV because nothing says sisterhood like bacterial vaginosis solidarity. And Becca might be drinking a little too much, but in her defense, life is lifing.We have deals for YOU!!Sleep sound with Boll & Branch! Get 15% off your first order plus free shipping at BollAndBranch.com/ladygang with code LADYGANGHers: Do you have weight loss goals this year? Visit ForHers.com/ladygang for a personalized, affordable plan!Pura: Prioritize the quiet moments! Check out Pura's Well Being collection at Pura.com/moodsSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

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well what is this welcome to the lady gang that's amazing say that again the lady gang things are about to change around here each week we catch up with hollywood's hottest girl posse kelty knight becca tobin and jack vanik hello hello hello welcome to the lady gang i'm becca tobin here with jack vanik and kelty knight i just had a short circuit moment yep where i started to speak and the wrong words were coming out of my mouth. But this is just par for the course. I'm exhausted. So let's get into it. It's time for Good Week. Yes, it is. Bad Week. Oh, no. Who wants to go first? I'll go. Okay. My book might. Wow. I can't even talk. My Good Week is I got a another full body MRI the other day with this company called Corviva, not sponsored,

but they're incredible. They're only in Newport beach right now, but I've gotten a different full body MRI before. And this one like blew it out of the water in so many different ways. Number one, my body's clean and you know, I have like the worst health anxiety in the world. So it was like very nice to hear that. Like everything is working the way that it should. Um, but they're amazing. Like you go and you do the scan and right after you meet with a radiologist. So, you know like in other scans you have to immediately immediately so you wait 10 minutes you get like a little snack in their their area and then you go meet with their radiologist who's like the founder of the whole company and he's so thorough so kind walks you through everything I talked to him for

45 minutes asked him every little question because you know I'm very curious about everything going on in my body and I had like two minor things like my disc and my neck is a little bit bulgy in like one of them and he's like he's like so for this and he brings out one of those like stretchy bands he's like you can do these exercises for this thing and it just like he'll teach you like what you need to do and then if they do find something they like um they coordinate care for you it's so amazing like it's so crazy and is it expensive there was nothing in your butthole blocking nothing in my butthole my stomach looks normal i have a bunch of scar tissue around my belly button, which I knew about because I feel like I have like a huge band. But everything else

is normal. And there are like some things that I found in my previous scan that were very scary to me that he when he saw them in the scan, he's like, this is a benign cyst that you've had in your brain since you were born. But my other scan that I got, I thought I had a brain tumor. So it was very it was a very different experience because he's just very thorough and like right away. It's like 2,500 bucks. It's the same as Prenuvo, but like, which is very expensive. And I know a lot of people can't afford it, but one of their goals that they're trying to do is get enough data to be able to present it and try to get it covered by insurance. So that's like, that's like their big goal, but it was incredible. I mean, I am so glad that I did it because, you know,

I just like am in constant like fight or flight with my own body. That was my good week. My bad week is i saw this tiktok of a girl that was in a hotel room and she was like life hack if you have dirty underwear this is how you clean them she brings out a keurig coffee maker sticks her underground hotel one yes the hotel one that people use and she sticks her underwear she just put it where you put the little coffee cup thing turn it on the boiling hot water cleans your underwear and she posted this being like she thinks it's everybody's gonna be like what a life hack. This is so sick. It was sickening. And I guess it's a thing that some flight attendants do. Yeah, we've talked about this. Did we? I thought that it sounded familiar.

And I was like, and that's maybe that's what it was. And I'm like, oh, my God. If I had more time on my hands, I would find this girl and find out what hotel that was, alert the hotel and have her on a no fly list for that hotel chain for the rest of her life. That is sick. It's sickening. I mean, for many reasons, don't use the coffee machines in hotels because a lot of times they just don't clean them and they're like really moldy. Yeah, you can't. I'm going to go next because mine, I actually had to wash my underwear in the shower in my hotel. Well, that makes more sense. Yeah. And it was because it was completely, I can't believe I'm telling this story. I got, I had a raging yeast infection, raging. And the night before I flew, I did the monostat thing

where I did the little egg up and in the morning, you know, you pee and you hope that like a lot of it's come out. And then I flew. By the time I got to the hotel, I had a sausage of white discharge sitting in my panties. So I know I can't believe I'm telling this story. I want to die. Disgusting. No, that's not even my bad week. My, my, well, I had to wash my underwear in the sink because I had to like, they're my favorite. There's the Skims little booty shorts. And I was like, I don't want to ruin these. I don't want them to sit for a week here, crusting the sausage of discharge. So I washed them anyway. So I washed them. That wasn't even my bad week. My bad week is I think for the first time in my life, I had BV. I had to get antibiotics. You guys, I came back from New York.

I was busy, New York, whatever, whatever. I went to Pilates two days ago and I was doing circles chemicals and I was like, what is that smell? Ew. And ew, it's the worst smell. It's the rankest smell and it's so obvious. And then I was like, oh my God, it's me. And I couldn't leave the class. And then she came down to like adjust the springs. And I was like, Dani, my Pilates instructor, I'm like, does she smell? I have never smelled any, like I've never had this before. When you've talked about BV Becca forever, I was like, BV, yeah, that's like for gross, dirty people. Nope. it's for me. I got it. I had to get antibiotics. Now it's better. What? And I was like, am I, is this like a sexually transmitted? It's just, you get a bad yeast infection and that upsets the

PPA. No, it's a bacterial infection. But you don't always have to have a yeast infection before. No. That's what's scary is it can just sneak up on you. It was horrific. Chris Knight, if you're listening to this and want to go down on me. I can't believe you subjected your whole Pilates class to it because that probably stunk up the room. I'm sure, but I didn't really realize like it comes in stages. Like I didn't realize it was like I had it. And then I was like, is it? And yeah, then I realized anyway. Okay. So that was my bad week. My good week is the Lady Gang showed up for me this week, guys. I did a 16 hours of Instagram live yesterday. I got so many texts being like, should somebody go over there and save Kelty?

I texted Kelty, Becca, yesterday and I go, do you have a pre-recorded thing going on or have you literally been live all day? And she's like, I've been live all day. I did four hours and then I got kicked off and then I took a break and then I went back for four hours. How did you pee? I just like literally left them. I was like, I gotta pee. I'll be back I like I gotta let callie have dinner and I come back But it was it was really funny Like I wasn't planning on doing that because this is like the lady gang and kelty of it I was planning on waking up in the morning and having like so many pre-orders and like everyone would be like

Oh my god, the book's finally here And it's like an instant success and then i'm like two hours in i'm like i've sold 15 books I was like this is not going well So then I was like, what am I gonna do? I guess I'll get on live and make sure people know. And then I got so into it. And it and like, I mean, I listen, I think I sold about 550 books, which on a first day on one day is like, yeah, that's amazing. I think it's OK. Right. My goal, of course, was like, I'm going to sell a thousand books today. And then as the day went on, I was like, I'm going to lower it.

But literally at eight o'clock last night, I was like 350 books. But I had said I'm going to sell 500 books today. And then everyone got really into it. And they kept coming back on Instagram, like they went and ate dinner and they came back and they're like, where are we at? We need an update. So over the course of that, the eight hours I was on Instagram live, I had like 25,000 people like tuning in different people checking and then checking out. And then it got to be like nine 30 at night. And the amount of viewers went so high because everyone came in for a final. And then when I hit five, I can see them come in like directly. And when I hit 500, everyone was like cheering. I played Taylor Swift. I danced around with Callie. Like it was cool.

and it just reminded me of like when we did our express line we used to do lives and like everyone was like i'll buy one who wants one i'll buy one i just want to support like everyone got so involved my mom's like how many can i buy yeah um so anyway thank you for showing up for me i uh i'm really excited about it but like man it's such an us thing i was like you know you think i'm so popular i'm so famous this book's gonna be an instant bestseller and i'm like nope i'm gonna work for every one of those sales but i do believe in the book and i think it's gonna be great and thank you You have so much time to become an instant bestseller. It's so true.

Yeah. Rome wasn't built in a day, you know? That's true. And it's also like a different thing for me. Anyway. Okay, Becca. Okay. My bad week is I have been drinking a lot more than I usually do.

I don't know. Ever since like my, maybe the holidays, but like really with my birthday really kicked it up a notch. And I was like getting too casual with my drinks, you know? Just a Wednesday evening cooking dinner. And I'm not a wine girly. I can't drink wine. It makes me hungover. I'm making a fresh cocktail, like a classic cocktail. That is not good. That's not good for me. And it's really bitten me in the ass. I think my whole gut microbiome is fully off my TMI. My poos have been so weird. My everything is so I'm holding on to

so much water weight. I can't believe the drastic change from me having like one drink a week to however many so I'm back on the wagon with a little sprinkle here and there but my good week is because of this water weight I started following this woman in LA detox by Rebecca she's like a famous lymphatic masseuse but those are expensive to go get and I've been teaching myself from her Instagram she does all these tutorials and I am telling you I don't believe in anything, this shit works. Are you doing it on your stomach? Doing it on my stomach. I did it yet. I, this morning I did my saddlebags and then it's a whole, I'm very into this. So her it's detox by Rebecca on Instagram. One day when I'm in LA, I'm going to go visit her because her

tutorials are this good. I can't even imagine when she touches my actual body, how good they're going to be. But, um, there that's, that's best thing that ever happened to me. I love a lymphatic massage. Really the best thing that ever happened to us is that literally America's Next Top Model documentary came out and I sort of knew Jay and I was like texting him and I'm like, I need you on Lady Gang. He's like, I definitely want to talk about this with the girls. So like we arranged this last minute. We need, we have a fresh episode. All the tea is coming. We need to, yeah, it's going to be amazing. Stay tuned. Mornings without coffee, road trips without snacks? Movies without popcorn? Without our favorite foods, we'd miss out on all our favorite

moments. Learn more at canadasfoodsystem.ca. Now back to the Lady Gang. You know him from sitting alongside Tyra Banks on America's Next Top Model, but his career goes far beyond the judging panel. He's an internationally renowned makeup artist and creative director whose work has graced the covers of Vogue, Harper's Bazaar, and Elle, working with some of the biggest names in fashion and Hollywood. He's hosted Style Her Famous, appeared on Fashion Police, and Canada's Next Top Model. And he even authored the novel that I need to get turned into a miniseries tomorrow, The Wig, The Bitch, and The Meltdown, inspired by his experiences in the industry. Today, we are diving into the real story behind America's Next Top Model, its legacy,

and what the hell is happening now that this docu-series on Netflix is out. Please welcome to the Lady Gang podcast, Jay Manuel. Welcome. Welcome. Thanks, Kelty, for that introduction. Becca, Jack, you know, honestly, it is an insane whirlwind right now. I mean, look, Kelty, you're no stranger to Hollywood and things blowing up. I can speak from the Netflix family.

They knew that this would reach around the world. That's why they chose to do a worldwide launch, which they don't do with all their products. They launch it worldwide. And in 48 hours, we were number one in every country around the world. I just like I didn't know what to make of that. I mean, it is so wild. And I don't think I was expecting everything that they put in there. I have a question for you.

Like, how did they approach you about it? Because it's very much sort of like an expose. Like, is that the angle that they were telling you? Did they tell you Tyra was going to be involved or like, what was the vibe? You know, Jack, that's a great question. When I got the first call and we're going back to summer of 2024, at that point, because my novel had really taken off in the pandemic, that's when the last time I spoke with Kelty, we did a big interview about that.

And then producers from major studios about every year after that, I would say like two to three calls came in. like, we want to do this huge top model documentary. But I literally said no, every time the first call, no, because I got the sense it was going to be a takedown piece. This call was different in 2024. The executive producer, Jason Beekman, had this passionate pitch. And I said to him, you know what? This was on the phone. So I said, do you want to have tea? Are you going to be in New York soon? And he's like, yes, I'm in New York two weeks. Let's sit down. And that was a three hour sit down. And in that conversation, I really found the confidence that he was looking to create

a safe space where we can have a conversation and a celebration, not a takedown. Because I certainly believed, and I told him right then, I'm not interested in takedown culture. And I certainly do not think Tyra needs to be vilified at this time. So if we're going to have a conversation, sure. And so I signed on at that point and Netflix greenlit it one week later, fully greenlit without Tyra knowing. And I think today it came out in the New York Times because we all did an interview for that. And they confirm that Netflix said they greenlit this without Tyra's participation. They felt it was important to have this story. So if she chose to participate great if she didn't they were 100 moving forward so she didn't learn about this doc

until we were actually shooting and in production oh wow jay what are the chances that we can get like here here's what it is is that we we watched it and we were like oh the 2000s were so crazy like there was all of that and then there was like watching tyra disassociate and then there was the deep which i want to start with something really positive there was the deep love of the three boys like we re-fell in love with the trio of boys please tell me that we are getting something with you guys like i i don't care what it is a tv show a podcast a docu-series a follow-along literally like i the friendship i had no idea when you guys were on that show that you were that good of friends and watching you with miss jay i mean it like my cold dead heart was warm

you don't have a cold dead heart stop it but you know i i appreciate the sentiment you know with miss jay and i i will forever credit him i met him uh when we started shooting cycle one i knew of him beforehand of course but i'd never met him before so i met him shooting the show and kind of immediately we fell into this kind of, this kind of fun banter vibe. But for me, the real emotional hook to Miss J was we were being given this opportunity as openly gay men to be on TV and both men of color and, you know, J being super flamboyant, walking around in heels and panties and a t-shirt. He gave me the permission to authentically be myself and I could lean on him. And I think the doc, they even have one of my lines speaking about that because that was so important to me. He allowed me to, at a time when there was no representation on television, speaking of the LGBTQ plus community, that was really important. Now, did we think we were paving the way and representing? No, we weren't thinking that at the time. But I will forever credit him for giving me that opportunity just to be myself and bounce off him.

and then Nigel you know I was the one who actually did his screen test in my living room and pitched him to the network for cycle two uh everyone's asked me like where's the tape the thing was I did shoot it on like a like one of those dv cams we used to have so I actually sent the tape I didn't think to duplicate it and I sent it to the network so I don't have the tape but now you can ask Nigel when you speak to him I shot him in my living room and I met him through another friend and colleague. And so Nigel and I became friends on the show and with Miss J. And, you know, that bond was really special. But what is really special is where we sit today as, you know, grown adults. And Nigel, you know, I support his endeavors and I see him and we talk on the phone

all the time and he supports my things. But when he saw the documentary for the first time, we all saw it before it came out. He called me and he said the most emotional thing. I've not shared this with anyone, by the way. So you guys are getting the scoop. He said to me, wow. And I said, what did you think? And his first words were not about the doc. His words were, Jay, I really didn't fully understand your position and what you were going through then, because I'm not a gossip. anyone who knows me I'm not a gossip like I was loyal tried and true with Tyra and and was just holding everything and even still to this day I know a lot of personal things in the skeletons which I will never reveal because that's personal but he said to me I wish I could have been the

friend that I am with you now then and literally he told me that tears went in my eyes I wrote him this note afterwards. And he said, I meant every word of it. And that to me is just like, I couldn't believe he said that. Well, I remember in the documentary when you got like blackmailed back into going and it was that really awkward like cycle of what you were doing. And he was just like, I think that there was something going on, but like I had, I didn't really know, like all he was doing is observing. So that's so crazy that you had to keep all of that to yourself. Like that is one of the wildest things I've ever seen somebody have to do. Like I can't even imagine. It's so true. If this had happened to me, I would have told every single person on that set. I would

have told Crafty. Like it, good for you because that is a very grown up and evolved way of operating. It's probably why you've had so much longevity in this business, but that must have been really hard, really, really hard to hold in. It was, it was very difficult. I know Kelty, we spoke about it briefly a few years ago, but even then I wasn't really in the space to talk about everything. And I've since done even a lot of healing. And so when I sat down for this interview in the documentary, I felt I was speaking from a healed space. But I like to always clarify the word blacklist wasn't even used. But if I'm going to be even more specific than I was in the documentary, you know, again, I chose to leave the show after Cycle 8. I did.

I had no options on my contract and I wanted to leave on really good terms, which I did, you know, I and and as Tyra and had asked me to have this pact, never go through our people and our agents and our lawyers. She was traveling, so that's why I didn't call her. But I wrote her this email, which we talk about in the documentary, and the producers wanted to see the email and the response, which they did. I really wrote the most gracious email of love and gratitude for the opportunity and that I was so excited to have stood by her, especially as a Black woman in this industry and helped lift her up. And, you know, for her not to respond from someone who would call me twice and three times a day, it was really painful. And I just didn't know what was going to happen. And then I got that response. I'm disappointed.

What the doc doesn't make clear, and I'll say this, is that I did right at the end of production of cycle eight. So they weren't going to start cycle nine for three and a half months. So I was giving them all the time to find a replacement, which they screen tested several people. And in the doc, they show I'm on vacation in St. Lucia, which is true, but that was two and a half weeks out of production for them. When they first contacted me, by the way, Ken Mock, not a producer,

her nobody contacted me after that one email from her and then you were just radio silent they're replacing you I'm out and then right at the last minute they're like please come back you basically that's what happened well and it was that and it came from uh business affairs from the parent network uh and they they said and and Kelty I know you'll appreciate this the way it worked because because obviously uh at that time I was doing fashion police and you know the fashion correspondence for E and, and on style. And so at that time, E was like, we'd like you to do something else with us. So there was a project we were talking about and I had made a commitment and you know how it is. You make a commitment while you guys are working on the deal.

That is when top model asked me to come back for cycle nine. And my lawyer went back saying, Jay is a commitment. Now they thought it was that entertainment, you know, game that everyone plays. I have a commitment. You're holding out for big money. Yeah. That was not the case. Cause it was just like, unfortunately as a commitment, he can't come back. We weren't trying to negotiate. That's when they came right back with and said, we would pretty much guarantee he would not work on any of our airwaves. And that in essence is blacklisting the threat of, yeah and when you're in your 30s your career trajectory is here I it struck the fear of God in me and that's the answer truly I operated from a place of fear at that time and I went back

and that's when I learned I showed up on set and she was not going to speak to me unless cameras were rolling and I was I I just I froze so the first time I spoke on camera Tyra realized I wasn't speaking. So she put her arm around me and said, oh, my God, Mr. J. And that's how I knew to just play with her when the cameras rolled. And when the cameras even shut off to change tape, her back was to me and she would not answer anything. That chills down my spine when I watched that. I know. And I'm like, I just like felt your anxiety and like just the fear and the nerves and the panic like that might be one of the worst positions to ever be put in. And you're being filmed like i can't even and i've worked i've worked on so many shows and so many difficult

environments like live event television and everything and i'll tell you those were just pressure environments i would call them healthy work entertainment pressure environments this environment was something completely different and unhealthy and um but then the big question fans are asking now because everybody's online about the documentary is okay we understand this but then you were there to cycle 18. What happened? In a nutshell, because I know I have long answers, the nutshell of it is when we finished that one cycle, they basically then came to me and said, well, we would like it if you could come back for four more. We promise you a safe work environment. And I'd already felt the ramifications of no before. So from a place of

fear, I said, yes, thinking I could fix everything. And that was definitely my naivete at the time. And I understand that now, but that's why I went back. How many years of your, oh, go ahead, Jack. We're so excited. Go, Jack. No, I was just going to ask, like, did it ever get better with Tyra? Did it ever get easier? Did she ever talk to you normally or was it always just camera on?

That's the only time. Oh, no. By the time I came, because I had agreed to come back for four cycles, then in cycle 10, I was like, oh, this is great. And it was strange, but we would talk. I mean, it even got to, I remember, and there's a picture in the documentary. I was like, oh, wow. There's a shot where Tyra's arm is around me and I'm wearing this leather jacket.

And we're actually in Amsterdam. I think that was cycle 12. I can't remember. But she sent me a message one day and we were in Amsterdam. And she said, how about we just, you and I go have dinner like old times. And I thought, oh, okay. And we went and we had dinner. it wasn't the same but I felt like she was trying and we did and then we did talk you know off

camera on camera and we were able to make things work but it never went back to what it was well before that and did you ever talk about the email or or anything never never that's why you know for me I really thought during the documentary and what I love about this process and these two directors who I was already a fan of and the work that they have done. So when I found out they were directing, I was like, oh my gosh, they're known for their journalistic integrity. You know, we didn't know anything about this doc until they presented it to us, finished, in advance of all our pre-press. So we saw it late in the game. I didn't know it was going to be in it. And watching her reaction to one of the directors, her name is Moore, asking her, because clearly Tyra speaks

about me very glowingly in the documentary, which was flattering. But then when she asked, is now a good time to talk about what happened between you and Jay? We see her very dismissive answer. I mean, I'm seeing now psychologists breaking this down online. What did you guys think of her response to that? That felt, you know, I don't want to sit here and bad mouth her. I don't know her. We got like this version of her. And, but this is my armchair opinion. I, that moment was sociopathic. It felt very much like anybody that has a falling out with someone they deeply love for so many years, there is an appropriate reaction, whether or not you're still attached or whatever that is. And that was not what she was giving. And it was the same feeling

I got a chill down my spine when they were talking about was it Dani who had the gap in her teeth pushed together when Tyra says the line about how she was talking to agents and they were the ones telling her that the teeth would never work I was like I turned I was like that the way she said it the way she lied the way I know she's full of shit it really did I wanted to like root for her I wanted her to not be like taken down and dragged. But those two moments I felt were like, no, you've actually deserved what you've been given is what it felt for me. It was hard to, you know, and I want to say something positive about her because I think there's so much negative out there. Ultimately, well before Top Model, I had developed, you know, we worked together and developed this friendship. And I realized early on there was a very weird power dynamic. And because Tyra has so few close friends and so few people that she lets in, for me, and I understand now, years later, even though I recognize she wasn't like one of my BFFs, but a friend nonetheless, but to her, I was really her confidant.

And that's why still to this day, all of her private business, which everyone is asking me, it'll never come out. because I'm not that person. I can speak about my experiences. But ultimately, I wish she had brought the vulnerable woman that I know who has wounds, who has insecurities, if she had brought the true Tyra to this documentary, I think the world would have been far more receptive to her, even if she gave the identical answers, to be honest with you. But we just, that, I think people are are almost rejecting this polished almost and i know tyra to have a certain tv personality but this was a really interesting version of even that she was so media trained well we always say in like entertainment and we've said this a zillion times on the podcast you get stunted at

the age you get famous right so she was like this model in whatever at 17 years old she's in milan and she's on her own and like that is the age the emotional age in which you know that she is now like so you know when and then you get on top of that you get this great power right like you're so powerful you have the power to get green light shows you're making the money you're the star you're the person and you all you have is yes men around you and she was lucky in my opinion to have a friend like you, Jay, and still is. Because listen, with the way you were treated and the way you were, you know, threatened, I would be telling shit, too. But, you know, she's emotionally stunted and she's never had to grow up. So she didn't go through her 20s, her messy 20s and

figuring out how to be a good friend and how to, you know, having friendship fights and stuff like if you're a lot of these stars that are so powerful, the biggest stars in the world, they're very isolated. I think it's more narcissism than immaturity, though, Because she never admits any fault on her end. Never once. Every single person, even Ken, at one point was like, I look back and that was up. And it's really like, it's really telling when somebody cannot take one ounce of responsibility or admit to being wrong. And I'm pretty sure that is the definition of a narcissist. I think the real issue for me was when at the end of the documentary, I think it's episode three, and she's like, oh, I haven't seen Miss J. I haven't gone to see Miss J. And then she was like, I don't want my legacy to be top model. I want my legacy to be ice cream. And I was like, babe. That's not in the doc. That's not in the doc. That's actually, no, that's a clip that's running everywhere. That's not in the doc. Or she does talk about her. Oh, no, you're right. She does talk about her legacy being ice cream in the documentary. All you had to do was go to the

hospital. All you had to do was walk in the hospital. Bygones be bygones. She doesn't address Miss J. That's why I was like, Miss J says that she doesn't, she hadn't come visit him. But I believe Tyra wouldn't even answer that in her interview. That's why you don't have a Tyra answer even in the documentary about her not going to the hospital. It's just Miss J's side that you're hearing. You know what? This person is dying. I mean, thank God he didn't.

I thought he was dying. I was there right when he woke up from his coma, which I've misspoken in an interview. It says five months. It was five weeks. But I was there that week because I thought this was the last time I was seeing this man. Honestly. yeah you walk in who cares the contracts that whatever happened you grab their hand and you say I love you oh my god like that is what a human being does that was wild to me do you think

that he or she is going to reach out to him now that there's like all this not backlash but all of this no oh you know I can't speak to I you know I can't speak to what Tyra's going to do now I can only imagine she is in crisis mode. I know there's also this lawsuit that she has to answer within the next, there's like a limited period of time. But she's going to have to come out at some point and address some of this. And it'll be very interesting. The world will be watching because she's, I don't want to speak to what she'll do. What do you hope happens for you?

I don't know. What do you hope happens for you, for your friendship? if Tyra could make it right right now between Tyra and Jay what would that look like and could you forgive her well I've already forgiveness really comes about when you let go of the stress out of your own body I had to reach that point before this documentary so like I said I understand where a lot of her pain comes from and whatever her personality type ultimately is which I'll leave to the psychologist to break down. That's on her to do that work and finding that healing for herself. But for me, I've had to forgive and let go. I'm also very much still embracing

my history with Top Model and that opportunity. But like everyone who steps into this industry, someone gives you an opportunity. So for those who say, oh, well, Tyra lifted you up. You should be ride or die till the end. No, the same way. Tyra made Tyra. I made myself on that show. Otherwise, I wouldn't have been there. And I was producing as well in all those early cycles. Same way, someone gave Tyra an opportunity at one point in her career, and she did herself. So I say all this to say, in terms of our relationship, I would, I'm fine, truly moving forward with the love and my friends that are around me. I don't need in any place in my life for that reconnection. I think it would be lovely for us to have a genuine conversation,

maybe. And I'm open to that, but I don't think that would rekindle anything. And I don't know if she's open to have a real conversation where she looks herself. I think the reason she can't answer, honestly, the question that's posed to her in the doc is that she doesn't have an answer. Look, we had no fight. We had no falling out. I just left a show at a time when I was legally allowed to leave a show I mean what does that that's all she's mad at now she might see that as a slap in the face I don't know because she's never expressed that to me I think people like that really enjoy having a power dynamic like with with anyone in their lives whether it's romantic friendship so if you were to leave the show you no longer needed her on a professional

level and it was she probably was afraid to lose the dynamic of kind of being your boss in a sense because you also went from working together as a makeup artist and it was like always under the thumb in a bit and i want to know where was janice dickinson you know it i i had no i we were not again throughout this process we were not told who was participating and that is so that for journalistic integrity you know the team could do their work and we couldn't compare notes so we were all put in these these extremely strict strict ndas um the only people because we were initially approached for this green lighting was obviously jay nigel and i knew that we were participating and really there was nothing to compare we were just sharing our stories so we

didn't even talk about it before our interviews um but we were not told about anybody else and And I'm so glad that there's so many women's voices in this. You know, Shandi's voice is so strong and powerful. Even watching the doc, I was bawling at the top of episode two. All of the voices, truly. You're listening to The Lady Gang. I want to actually ask about Top Model. Like, if you had to give me the top three most up photo shoots from Top Model, what are Jay's top three?

I know mine, but what are Jay's top three most f***ed up? It does not track now in 2026. And it did not track then. Top model photo shoots. It didn't track then either. Yeah. Well, I think the number one for me, which will forever remain number one. And I just, and hopefully your top five or whatever are not in the shoots that I produced.

Because those early seasons, we genuinely came up with creative based on a shoot Tyra had done. and we shut, Tyra wanted the girls to do something she had done. And then I would go away and create where it all started shifting, where all the cooks were in the kitchen is cycle four. And I was still producing, but it's in the doc, the, the race swapping shoot where I just immediately in that meeting, I would out of respect for her. Cause it was, she pitched it to this group of eight of us sitting there. I want to do this for the empowerment of women of color. And everyone was like, uh, I'm not going to go against her in front of the people that work with her. But I immediately took my co-executive producer aside and said, you need to talk to Tyron Ken. There has to be a way

I'm out of this. My parents grew up in South Africa under apartheid. I, everyone thinks I'm Spanish, but I'm biracial. And so I identify as a black man, although people always look at me and say, oh, he's Spanish because my last name, too confusing. But the point is, you know, I could not do that. And Tyra and Ken came to me together and said, you know, don't worry, Tyra will own this 100 percent. You will not wear this. And what every TikToker and even journalists do, they only show the clip of me saying this on set. But 10 minutes later in the episode, at the start of the judging, Tyra says this was 100 percent my idea and this is why I'm doing it. That's what's frustrating is that even when this was revisited through the eyes of a new generation in 2020

they all started coming for me because there's the chiron creative director my producer names and the credits and so it was on me and it was not on me and kenneth admitted it but that's the number one uh photo shoot for me um number two who was as one of these tiktok stars pointed out they wanted to do it again and they did it in the short cycle but this time it was biracial and I'm biracial. And I'm like, why are we doing this? So that's when I did push back a little. And again, things were already very tense on set. But I said to Tyra, if that's the case, you have to be on set. You like to do a photo shoot every season. You do the introduction. And that's why that second time you notice I'm standing next to her, mute. She introduces that

shoot. So what were you going to say? What are your other ones? Those are my top two. three um being blind being blind that felt really insensitive now to be fair that that that blind shoot tyra had all of this all of the reasons behind she wanted to do this shoot i again and i know people are saying you stood by you stood by and that's the comment that comes back so people think I'm complicit in it. You have to understand a personality type like Tyra. I mean, you can't just walk off set. I have a network contract. It's, it's just not that simple. So I was doing the best that I could at that time with creative that was being forced onto me. The same thing with that whole violence shoot, which Ken takes, oh my God, he, he, he, and it was his idea and he does

take, I don't know if he's apologizing in an authentic way, but he does take full responsibility for it in the documentary. But that was another one where I was just like, are we really doing this? The unhoused shoot is like, listen, and I'm saying this as a woman who danced at the senior's tee in fifth grade to Will You Be There by Michael Jackson dressed as a unhoused person, because there was, like, a time in lyrical dance where it was very cool, like, the Les Mis of it all. Expressive. And we were all wearing ripped clothes,

acting like we were orphans and poor. And it was, like, I mean, it was the era, okay? But that, to me, was the wildest when they were, like, even in the documentary when they doubled down and they're, like, we did this unhoused shoot with real unhoused people. That was insane. Damn, it wasn't just the dressing up.

It was also, like, the extras on set were real unhoused people i was like this but then i'm like well they got paid that day like i i'm assuming they paid them like i guess that's a job and you know where they really got that idea from and it doesn't it doesn't look good on tyra too because she did that on her talk show where she was homeless for a day oh my god was following her one of the most cringe worthy pieces from daytime TV. That's why she insisted on that shoot. Now, again, you know, it was one of those shoots where we were just horrified we had to do this. And again, I know people say you stood by, you guys have no idea the pressure. And that's why even like yesterday, I was, you know, doing

several shows, you know, on TV that are airing next week. And the one thing I want everyone to know is that I have really looked back and recognized as someone who was a former people pleaser and really had to struggle and learn what that meant, why I was like that, and ultimately learn about creating healthy boundaries. I wish I had the ability to draw better boundaries at the time because ultimately, even in that position, although I had all this pressure from above, my job should have been creating a safe environment for these girls. And I own that and I recognize that. And I know if I was ever put in that position, I would push all the way back, even if it meant, you know, costing me my job. But at that time, I just did what I thought I could do. But

that unhoused shoot was really offensive to me. However, I remember everyone says, well, ISIS, you know, ended up competing and look at ISIS today. She became so successful. I want everyone to know, and you can see it in the shoot. I'm like that girl, ISIS is outshining all the girls on this set I'm the one who took Isis to Tyra but then now Tyra says we found Isis Tyra wasn't on set she wouldn't have known who Isis was wow well the other thing too in Hollywood I think for people on TikTok who have never been on a set in their lives they think the people in front of the camera are the bosses of the bosses of the bosses that they make all the calls like we're the bottom of the totem pole like it's truly we have seven bosses above us so in a position like that where

you're under contract for you. Like, I think it's beautiful that you're saying if it were now you would try harder, you'd work harder to do it. But if back then you would have never had the support and understanding from any of those people, which is why it went on the air. So it is I do wish people on TikTok were able to see that like the people on camera had little to zero control over what went on the TV. Also, if you had a producer like credit, like all of those things, Jay, I do think like you have to give yourself grace because here's what would happen. You would fight back and they would fire you and they would replace you with someone who would shut the fuck up. And that is the bottom line. And that's still the way it is in Hollywood today. So, you know, I mean, give

yourself some grace that you did the best you could. And it's lovely. But like TikTokers, shut the fuck up. Like you really didn't have the power that you think. TikTokers, shut the fuck up. It's also like a lot of the TikTok, everybody that's like refinding this in 2020, a lot of them are Gen Z and even younger. So we all grew up in this generation, like when it was first happening. And it's like, we understood the world was just vastly different. What was normalized? What was like women would take? How things were presented on TV? It's just like such of like wildly different world. And I think we are all just brainwashed into thinking a lot of that was normal. A hundred percent. Um, listen, I could talk to you for five days, but I promised

you this would be 30 minutes in the morning. So we're letting you go, Jay, but I am so happy to see you back. Like it was like looking at a warm, like a, like a warm hug. I was like, wait, I love this man. Like, I love your personality and I love that the documentary allowed, like with all the mistakes of that show. What I took away from the documentary is like how much you cared and how lovely you are. And I can't wait for that. Whatever the next book is. Can we get the book into a series, please? Like tomorrow? How about I tease this here a little bit? Because I haven't talked about it because everyone's asking. I can't say what or when, but there is a lot in motion with the novel. And by the way, a really funny thing, my working title when I wrote the novel, because

I wrote it myself, I didn't have a ghostwriter, it was called Reality Check the entire time. And then I ultimately, when having a discussion with my publisher and my writing mentor, we ended up with the title, The Wig, the Bitch, and the Meltdown. But I ended up making Reality Check the chapter title for chapter 12, because that's the big turning point in the book. And of course all the executive producers of this doc had read this and then netflix people and they like reality check we love that so um i do love that there is a lot of interest there are things happening there are people very interested in big big names a big name is very who basically called me and said i need to be keisha cash which is the supermodel host of the fictitious model

show model muse in my book and there are meetings and everything happening right now that's incredible so exciting also i have to point out that you are even hotter now what then you were i was like to say that you've aged like a fine wine feels like offensive because it would insinuate you've aged so much but you've like you haven't aged but you've you've gotten hotter so i'm just you look incredible what are you doing so you know everyone gives the so first of all i you know i haven't had alcohol since my 20s i don't smoke and yes i work out and take care of my body but that's what everybody says the rest i kind of i i joke it's like beard dye and botox i mean that would be it but i i do know i think i you know genetically i think you know i've got you

know good skin and those kind of genes but yeah my beard now is like super gray you don't want to see it when there's no beard dye. Well, you look great. TikTok's literally like, why didn't he stick up for him? But damn, he's a vampire. That's like the internet right now for you. They're like, Jay, what do you want to say to Tyra? Also, what is your skincare secret? It's kind of wild. I mean, it's so true. The ridiculousness of us on the internet about you right now is really fun. Gotta love the internet. We're so excited. I can't wait for this book, five years later to be back on the top of the bestseller list this week. We're so happy.

We're going to link it in the newsletter today, everybody, if you're listening. And Jay, thank you so much for coming on. And we will see you next Tuesday. Lady Gang is hosted and produced by Kelty Knight, Becca Tobin, and Jack Vanek with social media support from Kali Carrera, audio and video editing from Jared Monaco, and additional support from Steve Delameter and Podcast One. Hey, Ontario, come on down to BetMGM Casino

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